Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. You know, looking back in Tom, there's some characters out there if you are into literature that kind of influence I think the way you think, particularly when you're a kid and you're learning about these literary giants, they influence you, I think the way you look at the world. And I got to tell you there's one character in particular that has always fascinated me. And there's been various iterations of this character throughout Tom, but probably this is the first. And his name was Faust. And Faust actually is known for having made a deal with the devil. Now this comes through they say at least that he had a dissatisfaction with his life and he was unfulfilled. But as a result of this deal with the devil, he was able to become legendary in his knowledge of all things, and he could experience anything that he wanted to experience, almost on tap, if you will. Today we've got an actual case of tragedy involving a young woman who was only twenty one years old at the time of her death, and also a man named Faust. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags Brother Dave. You know, I got to tell you, man, I think that most people that hearing you talk about forensics on the show, and they think that I am just by default a science guy and you know, kind of a nerdy dude, And I guess I am. Actually I embraced the term nerd because I always tell my son, who's twenty two now and he's in a very technical career that he's being educated in at university right now. I've always told him, I said, son, nerds rule of the world and so, and that's the truth. But I got to tell you, science was I've always been a science guys. Science was never necessarily my passion. And when I was in high school, my favorite subject in the world was actually English and literature and I did That's the one ap class I actually did in high school back back during those times. And my professor or teacher was a guy named doctor James Cook. And doctor Cook has passed on now, but to have a guy that had a doctorate in literature that was teaching high school was like really really remarkable for that period of time. First off, you know, nowadays you can swing a dead cat hit somebody with a doctorate there everywhere back then, doctorates were rare and to have access to that brain. And I mentioned Faust just a second ago, and Faust is one of those characters that we explored in high school. And you know, there's translation between I think what we see and do in forensics and the classics, because as they say, there's nothing new under the sun. If you you know, evil has always been around. And I got to tell you, brother, the case of Tara Baker that we're talking about today, this is pure unabashed evil and this family has been suffering, now loathed these many years from a case that occurred back in two thousand and one. They have been suffering all this time. But I think the sweet Lord above, they finally it looks like they finally have some answers.

Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. You know, looking back in Tom, there's some characters out there if you are into literature that kind of influence I think the way you think, particularly when you're a kid and you're learning about these literary giants, they influence you, I think the way you look at the world. And I got to tell you there's one character in particular that has always fascinated me. And there's been various iterations of this character throughout Tom, but probably this is the first. And his name was Faust. And Faust actually is known for having made a deal with the devil. Now this comes through they say at least that he had a dissatisfaction with his life and he was unfulfilled. But as a result of this deal with the devil, he was able to become legendary in his knowledge of all things, and he could experience anything that he wanted to experience, almost on tap, if you will. Today we've got an actual case of tragedy involving a young woman who was only twenty one years old at the time of her death, and also a man named Faust. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags Brother Dave. You know, I got to tell you, man, I think that most people that hearing you talk about forensics on the show, and they think that I am just by default a science guy and you know, kind of a nerdy dude, And I guess I am. Actually I embraced the term nerd because I always tell my son, who's twenty two now and he's in a very technical career that he's being educated in at university right now. I've always told him, I said, son, nerds rule of the world and so, and that's the truth. But I got to tell you, science was I've always been a science guys. Science was never necessarily my passion. And when I was in high school, my favorite subject in the world was actually English and literature and I did That's the one ap class I actually did in high school back back during those times. And my professor or teacher was a guy named doctor James Cook. And doctor Cook has passed on now, but to have a guy that had a doctorate in literature that was teaching high school was like really really remarkable for that period of time. First off, you know, nowadays you can swing a dead cat hit somebody with a doctorate there everywhere back then, doctorates were rare and to have access to that brain. And I mentioned Faust just a second ago, and Faust is one of those characters that we explored in high school. And you know, there's translation between I think what we see and do in forensics and the classics, because as they say, there's nothing new under the sun. If you you know, evil has always been around. And I got to tell you, brother, the case of Tara Baker that we're talking about today, this is pure unabashed evil and this family has been suffering, now loathed these many years from a case that occurred back in two thousand and one. They have been suffering all this time. But I think the sweet Lord above, they finally it looks like they finally have some answers.

When we were talking about Lake and Riley and that whole rigormarole, I'm saying that happened with that, not her, not that the story was rigamarole, just when that was going on, and yeah, eyes of.

When we were talking about Lake and Riley and that whole rigormarole, I'm saying that happened with that, not her, not that the story was rigamarole, just when that was going on, and yeah, eyes of.

It, and there was so much around it.

It, and there was so much around it.

Yeah, this story came up Tara Baker because at the time it was.

Yeah, this story came up Tara Baker because at the time it was.

It did come up. It did come up, and it.

It did come up. It did come up, and it.

Was mentioned as hey, this isn't the first time we've been there. Here's an unsolved crime from two thousand and one.

Was mentioned as hey, this isn't the first time we've been there. Here's an unsolved crime from two thousand and one.

Holy smokes, you just hit me with that. I I'm just thinking right now the proximity time wise to the Lincoln Riley homicide and then on on literally on the heels of this right out of Athens, Georgia. Yeah, this, this reason has has been solved.

Holy smokes, you just hit me with that. I I'm just thinking right now the proximity time wise to the Lincoln Riley homicide and then on on literally on the heels of this right out of Athens, Georgia. Yeah, this, this reason has has been solved.

The reason it hit me was because you mentioned it and one other person mentioned the Tara Baker story. And I'm gonna be honest with you, I got it confused with Tara Grinstead, another unsought case that has been solved in the last two years, and a Georgia case, George George case, right, yeah, And so I looked up I remember Tara Baker, who are we talking about? And I went and looked it up and I was like, oh my word. You know, it was one of those things. And then when I saw it bubbling up last week that we had a solution, I'm the rumors, you know, the rumors hit first, and then it's yeah, yeah, yeah. So Tara was in Athens going to college. She was accepted the University of Georgia Law School. After she graduate from Georgia College with two bachelor's degrees. Twachel Yes, many of us barely.

The reason it hit me was because you mentioned it and one other person mentioned the Tara Baker story. And I'm gonna be honest with you, I got it confused with Tara Grinstead, another unsought case that has been solved in the last two years, and a Georgia case, George George case, right, yeah, And so I looked up I remember Tara Baker, who are we talking about? And I went and looked it up and I was like, oh my word. You know, it was one of those things. And then when I saw it bubbling up last week that we had a solution, I'm the rumors, you know, the rumors hit first, and then it's yeah, yeah, yeah. So Tara was in Athens going to college. She was accepted the University of Georgia Law School. After she graduate from Georgia College with two bachelor's degrees. Twachel Yes, many of us barely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Anyway, her commitment to social justice was a big deal, a very inclusive individual, pulling everybody along, you know, the whole rising tide thing that was her. In a nutshell, Tara was the person that people looked up to, not because she was the loudest in the room, but because she was the person you could count on.

Anyway, her commitment to social justice was a big deal, a very inclusive individual, pulling everybody along, you know, the whole rising tide thing that was her. In a nutshell, Tara was the person that people looked up to, not because she was the loudest in the room, but because she was the person you could count on.

Tara's entered into this world at this point, she's young, just gorgeous, and but she's had to find a place to live. And that's that's part of surviving college, because I think that there are a lot a lot of brilliant people that have wound up housed in really bad areas or bad places, and they don't they don't survive in those environments because it's not it's not healthy, it's not a productive study area and that sort of thing. But she had apparently lighted on this this apartment that she had, and it's kind of a single story structure, standalone thing, and she sets up housekeeping there, and Lord have mercy, the horror that kind of unfolded Dave in this particular case is something that we we don't really see all the time. On body bags. But certainly it has been revealed. Now now with these changes in the case, it's been revealed what she probably went through. Dave's can you kind of back up a little bit? I'm sorry I prattled on, but what actually went down relative to the discovery of Tara.

Tara's entered into this world at this point, she's young, just gorgeous, and but she's had to find a place to live. And that's that's part of surviving college, because I think that there are a lot a lot of brilliant people that have wound up housed in really bad areas or bad places, and they don't they don't survive in those environments because it's not it's not healthy, it's not a productive study area and that sort of thing. But she had apparently lighted on this this apartment that she had, and it's kind of a single story structure, standalone thing, and she sets up housekeeping there, and Lord have mercy, the horror that kind of unfolded Dave in this particular case is something that we we don't really see all the time. On body bags. But certainly it has been revealed. Now now with these changes in the case, it's been revealed what she probably went through. Dave's can you kind of back up a little bit? I'm sorry I prattled on, but what actually went down relative to the discovery of Tara.

Tara was living by herself and I'm trying. I want to make sure I get this right. She heads over to the law library. She'd by the way, and this goes back to the college lifestyle she had just after returning to classes for the Springs amount. She heads to the law library for a study session with a friend. By seven thirty, the friend is ready to go, but Baker not ready to stop. She keeps on studying. That was her nature. At a quarter to ten, okay, her friend, her study partner bails a seven thirty terras still there quarter to ten, studying, She calls her friend from the library to make sure she got home safe and mentions that she has plans going to leave in a couple of minutes and be back at her place. He's living in an off campus apartment. It's about a fifteen minute drive from the campus library to her apartment. You know, I said, Baker was living alone. She had two roommates. It kind of hit me in the head. Women she's got roommates. They had both left earlier that evening for a weekend trip out of town. Friday morning, all right, so we go. Thursday night, she's at the law library with a friend. Calls a friend to make sure the friend got home. Tells the friend, I'll be leaving around ten. Her roommates are gone for the weekend. We believe she made it home because of what happened. The next morning, nine point thirty, she misses a class. This is not something she does. Mid morning hours January nineteenth, the Athens, Clark County firefighters are called to an apartment fire Firefighters break down a locked door to access the unit. They find a fire has broken out in the bedroom. It has burned through the roof. Amongst the rubble, firefighters discover the body of a young woman who is later identified as Tara Baker, so the thumbnail. Thursday night, she meets a friend at the law library to study. The friend bales at seven thirty Terrace, stays there till ten. She talks to her friend at a quarter to ten, says I'll be leaving here at about ten o'clock. That's the last time we know she had contact with anybody. We know she go to her apartment because she was found the next day, so a twelve hour window basically of the time we know she was planning to be home ten PM till basically ten o'clock the next morning, so a twelve hour window. And in that time period, Joe something happened that caused her to miss her nine thirty AM class for firemen to be called because there's a fire. So whatever happened happened before nine thirty when she missed the class.

Tara was living by herself and I'm trying. I want to make sure I get this right. She heads over to the law library. She'd by the way, and this goes back to the college lifestyle she had just after returning to classes for the Springs amount. She heads to the law library for a study session with a friend. By seven thirty, the friend is ready to go, but Baker not ready to stop. She keeps on studying. That was her nature. At a quarter to ten, okay, her friend, her study partner bails a seven thirty terras still there quarter to ten, studying, She calls her friend from the library to make sure she got home safe and mentions that she has plans going to leave in a couple of minutes and be back at her place. He's living in an off campus apartment. It's about a fifteen minute drive from the campus library to her apartment. You know, I said, Baker was living alone. She had two roommates. It kind of hit me in the head. Women she's got roommates. They had both left earlier that evening for a weekend trip out of town. Friday morning, all right, so we go. Thursday night, she's at the law library with a friend. Calls a friend to make sure the friend got home. Tells the friend, I'll be leaving around ten. Her roommates are gone for the weekend. We believe she made it home because of what happened. The next morning, nine point thirty, she misses a class. This is not something she does. Mid morning hours January nineteenth, the Athens, Clark County firefighters are called to an apartment fire Firefighters break down a locked door to access the unit. They find a fire has broken out in the bedroom. It has burned through the roof. Amongst the rubble, firefighters discover the body of a young woman who is later identified as Tara Baker, so the thumbnail. Thursday night, she meets a friend at the law library to study. The friend bales at seven thirty Terrace, stays there till ten. She talks to her friend at a quarter to ten, says I'll be leaving here at about ten o'clock. That's the last time we know she had contact with anybody. We know she go to her apartment because she was found the next day, so a twelve hour window basically of the time we know she was planning to be home ten PM till basically ten o'clock the next morning, so a twelve hour window. And in that time period, Joe something happened that caused her to miss her nine thirty AM class for firemen to be called because there's a fire. So whatever happened happened before nine thirty when she missed the class.

Yeah, and you know, just so you understand, one of the big determinants here when we talk about fire cases is you want to know you want to understand causality, Okay, because there's any number of ways that fires can start, and to be able to examine that, you can have natural events which some people will refer to as act of God, you know, lightning strates like for instance, or maybe uh maybe for instance, uh, you know, like like our friends out in California experience in other locations out west with wildfires, which are you know, essentially acts of God. And you can't have an idiot that thumps a cigarette out of the window going down the road, and that has been known to start those types of things starting to think yeah, and so some sometimes. But but that's the key, isn't it, Dave. When you walk in to a scene and there before you are the burned remains of a home and the charred body of a young, beautiful woman who is working harder than most people can even begin to appreciate. You want answers, and unfortunately it took over two decades to arrive at some answers. Let's track back in time here a little bit, back to two thousand and one, just for particularly folks that might be a bit younger, Dave, this is all occurring before nine to eleven happened. You know, we're still months months before this that event ever occurred. It was I have to say, it was a different world prior to nine to eleven. I probably can get you to agree to that. More than likely it changed. It changed everything. So you know, we had obviously we had the internet, we had news on the internet. But when you were mentioning the earlier case from young Lady Lake and do you do you remember and I know you do, because we were right in a swirl of it. The media saturation relative to that case, how we had data coming in all the time. There were articles and things and people making comments. We did a podcast about it, I appeared on Nancy Show. I appeared on national television shows about it. Terra's case for the time received some recognition. I don't know how far and wide this spread, but I do know that at the moment in time, and I was still working in Georgia at the Medical Examiner's office, this case was all over the news in Atlanta because it was such you never heard of anything happening like this, and they knew that they had a problem early on. They identified this case as a homicide. But you know, first off, when one of the things you have to consider when you're examining a fire scene, you think about the time of year it is, that's the first thing that comes to mind for me. I have worked more fire deaths in the winter time than I certainly ever have in the summertime. And it's because of heating issues, where you have individuals that have turned on a heater for the first time when the temperature drops and they don't know if it's still functioning. Dave actually had one guy that lived in a little shack years and years ago, and he had electricity but didn't have a space eater, and he had bed bugs and he would kill he would kill the bed bugs with kerosene and it's an old fashioned remedy. Spray it on the bed. And it got so cold that he had two army blankets. He laid down with an army blanket over him, and he had another army blanket that he wrapped an iron in and he plugged it in and slept with the iron and it shorted and it killed him. And so you have events that occur like this. I've had people in temporary shelters before. I had six homeless guys one time that were sleep in a shelter right adjacent to the Carter Center in Atlanta, in a plywood temporary housing thing that they had built for these folks, and they one of the guys came in drunk and knocked over the kerosene heater and the whole thing went up, like Kenley, So weather plays a role in this. So you don't want to be predisposed as an investigator to think, Okay, what what am I looking at here? Is this actually a case involving a short circuit. Is it a case involving I don't know. Was there a fireplace or was there some other alternative source of heat that maybe? You know my family, my granny in her old house, she would turn on her gas up and leave the door open in order to heat the house, you know, because she didn't have a lot of money.

Yeah, and you know, just so you understand, one of the big determinants here when we talk about fire cases is you want to know you want to understand causality, Okay, because there's any number of ways that fires can start, and to be able to examine that, you can have natural events which some people will refer to as act of God, you know, lightning strates like for instance, or maybe uh maybe for instance, uh, you know, like like our friends out in California experience in other locations out west with wildfires, which are you know, essentially acts of God. And you can't have an idiot that thumps a cigarette out of the window going down the road, and that has been known to start those types of things starting to think yeah, and so some sometimes. But but that's the key, isn't it, Dave. When you walk in to a scene and there before you are the burned remains of a home and the charred body of a young, beautiful woman who is working harder than most people can even begin to appreciate. You want answers, and unfortunately it took over two decades to arrive at some answers. Let's track back in time here a little bit, back to two thousand and one, just for particularly folks that might be a bit younger, Dave, this is all occurring before nine to eleven happened. You know, we're still months months before this that event ever occurred. It was I have to say, it was a different world prior to nine to eleven. I probably can get you to agree to that. More than likely it changed. It changed everything. So you know, we had obviously we had the internet, we had news on the internet. But when you were mentioning the earlier case from young Lady Lake and do you do you remember and I know you do, because we were right in a swirl of it. The media saturation relative to that case, how we had data coming in all the time. There were articles and things and people making comments. We did a podcast about it, I appeared on Nancy Show. I appeared on national television shows about it. Terra's case for the time received some recognition. I don't know how far and wide this spread, but I do know that at the moment in time, and I was still working in Georgia at the Medical Examiner's office, this case was all over the news in Atlanta because it was such you never heard of anything happening like this, and they knew that they had a problem early on. They identified this case as a homicide. But you know, first off, when one of the things you have to consider when you're examining a fire scene, you think about the time of year it is, that's the first thing that comes to mind for me. I have worked more fire deaths in the winter time than I certainly ever have in the summertime. And it's because of heating issues, where you have individuals that have turned on a heater for the first time when the temperature drops and they don't know if it's still functioning. Dave actually had one guy that lived in a little shack years and years ago, and he had electricity but didn't have a space eater, and he had bed bugs and he would kill he would kill the bed bugs with kerosene and it's an old fashioned remedy. Spray it on the bed. And it got so cold that he had two army blankets. He laid down with an army blanket over him, and he had another army blanket that he wrapped an iron in and he plugged it in and slept with the iron and it shorted and it killed him. And so you have events that occur like this. I've had people in temporary shelters before. I had six homeless guys one time that were sleep in a shelter right adjacent to the Carter Center in Atlanta, in a plywood temporary housing thing that they had built for these folks, and they one of the guys came in drunk and knocked over the kerosene heater and the whole thing went up, like Kenley, So weather plays a role in this. So you don't want to be predisposed as an investigator to think, Okay, what what am I looking at here? Is this actually a case involving a short circuit. Is it a case involving I don't know. Was there a fireplace or was there some other alternative source of heat that maybe? You know my family, my granny in her old house, she would turn on her gas up and leave the door open in order to heat the house, you know, because she didn't have a lot of money.

You put boiling water on this stove, yeah, get high and go yeah.

You put boiling water on this stove, yeah, get high and go yeah.

Yeah, And it's kind of it kind of forms of cloud, you know, a warm cloud. And so when you go onto these scenes, that's one of the things you're contemplating as an investigator, what's the origin, what's the source of a fire like this? And then you know, the specter of a potential homicide raises his head, not completely spinds your view around.

Yeah, And it's kind of it kind of forms of cloud, you know, a warm cloud. And so when you go onto these scenes, that's one of the things you're contemplating as an investigator, what's the origin, what's the source of a fire like this? And then you know, the specter of a potential homicide raises his head, not completely spinds your view around.

That's what I was just going to. This is the day before George W. Bush is inauguration. Okay, just when you think about the things that were going on the day this happened, Bill Clinton was still president of the United States, he was in his last twenty four hours of president. And because when we were talking about this, and you think about she was in town beginning the spring semester, right that had me thinking that it was springtime already. It wasn't for the South that time of January into the first two weeks of February. That's where we usually have a colder time we did the rest of the year.

That's what I was just going to. This is the day before George W. Bush is inauguration. Okay, just when you think about the things that were going on the day this happened, Bill Clinton was still president of the United States, he was in his last twenty four hours of president. And because when we were talking about this, and you think about she was in town beginning the spring semester, right that had me thinking that it was springtime already. It wasn't for the South that time of January into the first two weeks of February. That's where we usually have a colder time we did the rest of the year.

We do.

We do.

And when you have a fire, and in the South, when you have cold, people do immediately think space heater or something along those lines. But it is an apartment. Things are a little different in apartment complex or an apartment in general. So when they get to this fire in the morning, and I'm wondering, Joe, as they put out the fire, I mean, they're going to be you know, when firemen come into a place like that, they're scoping at damage of where the fire started and whare to put it out? I mean, isn't that the goal here?

And when you have a fire, and in the South, when you have cold, people do immediately think space heater or something along those lines. But it is an apartment. Things are a little different in apartment complex or an apartment in general. So when they get to this fire in the morning, and I'm wondering, Joe, as they put out the fire, I mean, they're going to be you know, when firemen come into a place like that, they're scoping at damage of where the fire started and whare to put it out? I mean, isn't that the goal here?

Well? Yeah, actually they're looking they're going to attack those areas. And I love the way firefighters address fire. You know, they talk alike, they talk like they're in the army. It's really how they you know. And they move out in teams like this, and they're going to attack a central area to knock it down.

Well? Yeah, actually they're looking they're going to attack those areas. And I love the way firefighters address fire. You know, they talk alike, they talk like they're in the army. It's really how they you know. And they move out in teams like this, and they're going to attack a central area to knock it down.

But don't they treat it like a living thing? Yeah? That is consuming oxygen, That it actually has to be killed.

But don't they treat it like a living thing? Yeah? That is consuming oxygen, That it actually has to be killed.

It does. It does, and I think even de Niro said famously, and that's a line that they lifted from the Fire Service. Mind you, in the movie back Draft, there's a soliloquy by Niro. He plays an arson investigator in that movie, and he talks about the fire is a living, breathing thing. I'd heard that for years prior to that, and it was a license that was taken by the for that thing. But it's true. It requires there there's several things that have to happen. It's called an uninhibited chemical reaction. And so you have to have heat, a source of heat. Then you have to have an initiator, which you know might be gasoline or some other fuel source, and then or accelerant force. And then you have to have a see what's it called. You have to have a fuel source like it could be dry wall, it could be carpeting, it could be wood of any kind that's placed over an area. And then you have to have an uninhibited supply of oxygen. And it's almost like a big cycle that goes around. That's how fire works. And suddenly you know, at some point in time, fire is going to play itself out, you know it. Sometimes it takes longer than other times. And when people dump gas in areas, that's merely an accelerant. How many folks have ever taken gas? I would not, please do not do this, all right, but have taken gas, for instance, and thrown it into an already burning fire. What does it do? It explodes? It's scary, it is, and it flashes over. But guess what after that initial flash over, it dies out really quickly. Now you might be trying to initiate that wood or the fuel source that you have there to burn more effectively, but after that gas is essentially that major component of gas is gone, that has been burned away. The fire is now totally dependent upon the supply of oxygen and the source of fuel to continue to burn. Okay. The trick though, in any kind of death investigation involving fire is going to be surrounding areas because you're going to want to know where the most damage is and anything that was being worn by a victim. And because many times with arsenists that are trying to get rid of a body or evidence, they will just splash gas all over a body. And I think I've spoken of this before, but just kind of as a little primer, we retrieve those those items of clothing and also things that are attached to the body because sometimes elements get stuck to bodies, to say the very to put it politely, We'll collect those at autopsy and then we keep them and we submit those for examination at crime lab for accelerants. And if we can find a specific accelerant, say if it's a gasoline, you can you can get it down to the brand Dave because yeah, you know, because gas is gas, contrary to what they tell you. You know, what makes it different is you ever see these there you go put up bump, But what you ever see these commercials for gas where they say, well, it's got techron in it, whatever the heck guy it is, yeah, and it's got these additives that come into it that they claim are going to keep your fuel lines clean. That's the designator that separates all gases from other gases, because those are unique to that corporation or that entity, and they they're trademarked. They're trademarked, and so crime labs actually have a list of these things. So if they recovered that molecular structure, then you can say, okay, well I know that this person went to a particular gas station. How many of those types of gas stations selling that gas are located in proximity to this event? And you see that's a big indicator here, So you have to be really careful. It seems when you're working these cases.

It does. It does, and I think even de Niro said famously, and that's a line that they lifted from the Fire Service. Mind you, in the movie back Draft, there's a soliloquy by Niro. He plays an arson investigator in that movie, and he talks about the fire is a living, breathing thing. I'd heard that for years prior to that, and it was a license that was taken by the for that thing. But it's true. It requires there there's several things that have to happen. It's called an uninhibited chemical reaction. And so you have to have heat, a source of heat. Then you have to have an initiator, which you know might be gasoline or some other fuel source, and then or accelerant force. And then you have to have a see what's it called. You have to have a fuel source like it could be dry wall, it could be carpeting, it could be wood of any kind that's placed over an area. And then you have to have an uninhibited supply of oxygen. And it's almost like a big cycle that goes around. That's how fire works. And suddenly you know, at some point in time, fire is going to play itself out, you know it. Sometimes it takes longer than other times. And when people dump gas in areas, that's merely an accelerant. How many folks have ever taken gas? I would not, please do not do this, all right, but have taken gas, for instance, and thrown it into an already burning fire. What does it do? It explodes? It's scary, it is, and it flashes over. But guess what after that initial flash over, it dies out really quickly. Now you might be trying to initiate that wood or the fuel source that you have there to burn more effectively, but after that gas is essentially that major component of gas is gone, that has been burned away. The fire is now totally dependent upon the supply of oxygen and the source of fuel to continue to burn. Okay. The trick though, in any kind of death investigation involving fire is going to be surrounding areas because you're going to want to know where the most damage is and anything that was being worn by a victim. And because many times with arsenists that are trying to get rid of a body or evidence, they will just splash gas all over a body. And I think I've spoken of this before, but just kind of as a little primer, we retrieve those those items of clothing and also things that are attached to the body because sometimes elements get stuck to bodies, to say the very to put it politely, We'll collect those at autopsy and then we keep them and we submit those for examination at crime lab for accelerants. And if we can find a specific accelerant, say if it's a gasoline, you can you can get it down to the brand Dave because yeah, you know, because gas is gas, contrary to what they tell you. You know, what makes it different is you ever see these there you go put up bump, But what you ever see these commercials for gas where they say, well, it's got techron in it, whatever the heck guy it is, yeah, and it's got these additives that come into it that they claim are going to keep your fuel lines clean. That's the designator that separates all gases from other gases, because those are unique to that corporation or that entity, and they they're trademarked. They're trademarked, and so crime labs actually have a list of these things. So if they recovered that molecular structure, then you can say, okay, well I know that this person went to a particular gas station. How many of those types of gas stations selling that gas are located in proximity to this event? And you see that's a big indicator here, So you have to be really careful. It seems when you're working these cases.

Well, unbelievable, unbelievable. It never occurred to me that that would happen.

Well, unbelievable, unbelievable. It never occurred to me that that would happen.

But you know, in.

But you know, in.

Solving a crime, every piece of evidence comes into play. Where that accelerant came from, who bought that, and now with everything in surveillance cameras down right too, when that was bought. But back to Tara for just a minute here. When the fireman approached the apartment, they find that the fire is burning through the roof in a bedroom and I'm thinking in my mind, I'm envisioning that there's a fire on the bed that's been piled you know, we have terror on the bed right right, and the fire is going straight up. That has the fire spread throughout the entire apartment or is it isolated to that room? And that event of her body is there to destroy the body and as the first cause.

Solving a crime, every piece of evidence comes into play. Where that accelerant came from, who bought that, and now with everything in surveillance cameras down right too, when that was bought. But back to Tara for just a minute here. When the fireman approached the apartment, they find that the fire is burning through the roof in a bedroom and I'm thinking in my mind, I'm envisioning that there's a fire on the bed that's been piled you know, we have terror on the bed right right, and the fire is going straight up. That has the fire spread throughout the entire apartment or is it isolated to that room? And that event of her body is there to destroy the body and as the first cause.

Yeah, her body either being on the bed or adjacent to the bed and right you are about that day. Because you look for the area that has the most destruction. Isn't rocket science, Okay, Wherever you have the most destruction is where the heaviest concentration of heat is going to be, which is the byproduct of fire, and the hotter the area, the more destruction. And the reason it's going through the roof, what's the fire doing. It's seeking the oxygen, Okay, and it will do anything I say it like it's an entity.

Yeah, her body either being on the bed or adjacent to the bed and right you are about that day. Because you look for the area that has the most destruction. Isn't rocket science, Okay, Wherever you have the most destruction is where the heaviest concentration of heat is going to be, which is the byproduct of fire, and the hotter the area, the more destruction. And the reason it's going through the roof, what's the fire doing. It's seeking the oxygen, Okay, and it will do anything I say it like it's an entity.

But again, it has to have oxygen.

But again, it has to have oxygen.

Yeah, and the fire is seeking, it's seeking a fuel supply, you know, that uninhibited flow of oxygen. And so that's why if you if you see a case and I've you know, I've worked many that are like this where you have evidence of searing or smoke damage on the roof, you know that this seeing is probably burned for a while, that it took a bit of time for the fire service to get there and knock this thing down. And so you're looking at this and you're thinking, well, if I'm seeing this externally, oh my lord, it is going to be really really damaged inside the residents. Dave mac I gotta tell you one of the most intriguing things that you mentioned about Terra's case was the length of time between when she was last seen and when the fire was discovered. Keep in mind, schools back in session. There's people on campus, there's people in habit and you go to place like Athens, those apartments are filled and more than likely they're filled with kids that are there for school, they're living off campus. Somebody's going to take notice. They're going to take notice, particularly that time of day when people are up and running. I mean, you remember what it was like. You know in college, that time of is kind of like you've got to take classes at that time of day. You know you're going to be heading out and people are going to notice this. So you've got a fire burning this intensely, but yet it's suddenly noticed. That time gap, to me is kind of intriguing as an investigator.

Yeah, and the fire is seeking, it's seeking a fuel supply, you know, that uninhibited flow of oxygen. And so that's why if you if you see a case and I've you know, I've worked many that are like this where you have evidence of searing or smoke damage on the roof, you know that this seeing is probably burned for a while, that it took a bit of time for the fire service to get there and knock this thing down. And so you're looking at this and you're thinking, well, if I'm seeing this externally, oh my lord, it is going to be really really damaged inside the residents. Dave mac I gotta tell you one of the most intriguing things that you mentioned about Terra's case was the length of time between when she was last seen and when the fire was discovered. Keep in mind, schools back in session. There's people on campus, there's people in habit and you go to place like Athens, those apartments are filled and more than likely they're filled with kids that are there for school, they're living off campus. Somebody's going to take notice. They're going to take notice, particularly that time of day when people are up and running. I mean, you remember what it was like. You know in college, that time of is kind of like you've got to take classes at that time of day. You know you're going to be heading out and people are going to notice this. So you've got a fire burning this intensely, but yet it's suddenly noticed. That time gap, to me is kind of intriguing as an investigator.

That's why I was trying to get into that, because there are certain things that we know about Tara's last twenty four hour of life. I mean, and it is because she was in school, and because she was a creature of habit, and because here we are just starting back in the semester, and where is she in the law library studying they just took back in session, and she's already putting in the work. She meets a friend there who the friend bails at seven thirty and Tara's there for another two and a half hours. That's who she was. And so knowing that, realizing she wasn't one to go out gambling about, you know, she went home. And we have this time period just ten o'clock at night because that's when we know she left the library or was planning on leaving the library and heading home. So ten pm we have no contact with her other than what I'm aware of. Now. If I'm wrong, please please please correct me. But ten pm we know she's heading to her apartment. Now, was because this was an unsolved crime for many many years, was the suspect laying in wait? Had he been watching the apartment? There were two other roommates, but they were gone for the weekend?

That's why I was trying to get into that, because there are certain things that we know about Tara's last twenty four hour of life. I mean, and it is because she was in school, and because she was a creature of habit, and because here we are just starting back in the semester, and where is she in the law library studying they just took back in session, and she's already putting in the work. She meets a friend there who the friend bails at seven thirty and Tara's there for another two and a half hours. That's who she was. And so knowing that, realizing she wasn't one to go out gambling about, you know, she went home. And we have this time period just ten o'clock at night because that's when we know she left the library or was planning on leaving the library and heading home. So ten pm we have no contact with her other than what I'm aware of. Now. If I'm wrong, please please please correct me. But ten pm we know she's heading to her apartment. Now, was because this was an unsolved crime for many many years, was the suspect laying in wait? Had he been watching the apartment? There were two other roommates, but they were gone for the weekend?

Important point right there, Yeah.

Important point right there, Yeah.

Because I'm wondering was this somebody that knew them? Was this friend of one of them that knew Tara was going to be alone for the weekend that her roommates were gone.

Because I'm wondering was this somebody that knew them? Was this friend of one of them that knew Tara was going to be alone for the weekend that her roommates were gone.

I think, boyd, that's you know, and that's That's a big reveal there when you think about that. Who would have four knowledge of the fact that these two would be out of pocket for that period of time to show a woman to be isolated in this And you know, first off, I was thinking, well, for those that have never seen it, I have just allowed me indulge me and let me describe it to you. This this Law library at Uga is how can I describe it? Cavernous? It's it's vast, there's all kinds of points of observation.

I think, boyd, that's you know, and that's That's a big reveal there when you think about that. Who would have four knowledge of the fact that these two would be out of pocket for that period of time to show a woman to be isolated in this And you know, first off, I was thinking, well, for those that have never seen it, I have just allowed me indulge me and let me describe it to you. This this Law library at Uga is how can I describe it? Cavernous? It's it's vast, there's all kinds of points of observation.

Are you suggesting somebody was watching her? It could have been. And that big? It is that big.

Are you suggesting somebody was watching her? It could have been. And that big? It is that big.

And also the thing about it the Uga campus is, you know, I guess some people use the term bucolic. It kind of rolls. There's a lot of old oak trees, dark spaces hedges, all those sorts of things, and it's really well manicured. But if somebody's laying in wait out there in the dark, waiting for this young woman to leave, maybe they had targeted her before this time. They had an awareness of her and she probably fit a type. Because most predators do in fact have a type. Some of them are opportunity. They'll take the first victim they can but sometimes they have a type of person that kind of slips onto their radar where they they look for the opportunity. But the fact that the roommates would have been gone is something that is going to give give me an idea here that you have to be going through the backgrounds of the roommates very thoroughly. And they might even have an awareness of it. It might be a peripheral. Maybe they said something while they're sitting around drinking coffee. We know me and you know, and she and I are both going out of town this weekend, and all you got, you know, Ef Hutton. They're kind of leaning in and they kind of hear this, and what a horrible thing, you know, to think about. But here, here's here's the problem, Dave. We've got this huge gap of time. This fire did not initiate overnight. This fire is burning in the morning. People are just taking notice of it. That leaves this time from when she was lasting at the law library until she's finally found by fire service in there the next morning. What what happened during that time? What had she gone through? Look, what did she even do her?

And also the thing about it the Uga campus is, you know, I guess some people use the term bucolic. It kind of rolls. There's a lot of old oak trees, dark spaces hedges, all those sorts of things, and it's really well manicured. But if somebody's laying in wait out there in the dark, waiting for this young woman to leave, maybe they had targeted her before this time. They had an awareness of her and she probably fit a type. Because most predators do in fact have a type. Some of them are opportunity. They'll take the first victim they can but sometimes they have a type of person that kind of slips onto their radar where they they look for the opportunity. But the fact that the roommates would have been gone is something that is going to give give me an idea here that you have to be going through the backgrounds of the roommates very thoroughly. And they might even have an awareness of it. It might be a peripheral. Maybe they said something while they're sitting around drinking coffee. We know me and you know, and she and I are both going out of town this weekend, and all you got, you know, Ef Hutton. They're kind of leaning in and they kind of hear this, and what a horrible thing, you know, to think about. But here, here's here's the problem, Dave. We've got this huge gap of time. This fire did not initiate overnight. This fire is burning in the morning. People are just taking notice of it. That leaves this time from when she was lasting at the law library until she's finally found by fire service in there the next morning. What what happened during that time? What had she gone through? Look, what did she even do her?

Here's my question, Joe. We know that firemen are there they're called to put this fire out. And in an apartment, I'm going to guess here that normally the fireman would be called by the person that lives in the apartment saying, hey, I started a fire, I can't get it out. Help, you know, in this case, they were called because somebody saw the fire coming through the roof of the apartment, right, And I don't know that they expected to see a victim, because, to be honest with you, she was supposed to be in class at nine thirty that morning and this is after that.

Here's my question, Joe. We know that firemen are there they're called to put this fire out. And in an apartment, I'm going to guess here that normally the fireman would be called by the person that lives in the apartment saying, hey, I started a fire, I can't get it out. Help, you know, in this case, they were called because somebody saw the fire coming through the roof of the apartment, right, And I don't know that they expected to see a victim, because, to be honest with you, she was supposed to be in class at nine thirty that morning and this is after that.

Yeah, and so how you know this is a bold thing if you're going to be a fire setter. Most most fire setters do the sort of thing at night. And I was looking at the layout of of where, you know, where this event actually occurred, and the old address was one sixty Fawn Drive in Athens, and it's it's it's a collection of kind of the road is kind of I don't know, it's curvy that goes through here, but there's two outlets. There's not a cul de sac on this road, so it's almost it's not truly a through road, but it is a connecting road that you can get out to other major arteries. So if an individual is walking away from it, just walking down sidewalk casually, hoping that no one notices the fire, he might appear to be innocuous at that point in time. I don't know that anybody saw anybody sprinting away because I don't know about you, men, But when I'm around fire, if it's out of control, I want to get away from it as quickly as I possibly can. No, with all of my hair and skin intactooed and all of my clothing.

Yeah, and so how you know this is a bold thing if you're going to be a fire setter. Most most fire setters do the sort of thing at night. And I was looking at the layout of of where, you know, where this event actually occurred, and the old address was one sixty Fawn Drive in Athens, and it's it's it's a collection of kind of the road is kind of I don't know, it's curvy that goes through here, but there's two outlets. There's not a cul de sac on this road, so it's almost it's not truly a through road, but it is a connecting road that you can get out to other major arteries. So if an individual is walking away from it, just walking down sidewalk casually, hoping that no one notices the fire, he might appear to be innocuous at that point in time. I don't know that anybody saw anybody sprinting away because I don't know about you, men, But when I'm around fire, if it's out of control, I want to get away from it as quickly as I possibly can. No, with all of my hair and skin intactooed and all of my clothing.

All right, Well, how do you know, Joe, when you've got a fire that requires firemen to show up, they put the fire out and find the body of a woman. Yeah, and I know that according to the UH, I guess the police are the ones that actually revealed that Baker was beaten, that she was stabbed, strangled, and potentially sexually assaulted. How in the world it's hard we're going to find out all this?

All right, Well, how do you know, Joe, when you've got a fire that requires firemen to show up, they put the fire out and find the body of a woman. Yeah, and I know that according to the UH, I guess the police are the ones that actually revealed that Baker was beaten, that she was stabbed, strangled, and potentially sexually assaulted. How in the world it's hard we're going to find out all this?

Yeah, Oh my gosh, it's so difficult, Dave, so very difficult. So many changes occur to the body. And let me tell you, just from the scene, what would have happened. What do we know about the fire, what draw it to the attention of a of a passer by. What did you say, just a moment ago they saw the fire going through the roof. Yeah, and guess what happens. People don't think about this, but if you have a fire that is involving the roof, guess what happens to the ceilings in those rooms that collapse. So you've got you've got the studs in the ceiling, You've got.

Yeah, Oh my gosh, it's so difficult, Dave, so very difficult. So many changes occur to the body. And let me tell you, just from the scene, what would have happened. What do we know about the fire, what draw it to the attention of a of a passer by. What did you say, just a moment ago they saw the fire going through the roof. Yeah, and guess what happens. People don't think about this, but if you have a fire that is involving the roof, guess what happens to the ceilings in those rooms that collapse. So you've got you've got the studs in the ceiling, You've got.

I got to stock you. My thought, Joe, I'm not kidding. My thought was that you have the bedroom, you have the bed, you have Tara on the bed, And to be honest with you, in my mind, I was picturing stuff thrown on top of her that would act as some type of fuel for the fire. That the fire is lit and it goes straight up from the bed and Tara and burns a hole in the ceiling and burns a hole in the roof. That's what I was thinking. And that's not the case.

I got to stock you. My thought, Joe, I'm not kidding. My thought was that you have the bedroom, you have the bed, you have Tara on the bed, And to be honest with you, in my mind, I was picturing stuff thrown on top of her that would act as some type of fuel for the fire. That the fire is lit and it goes straight up from the bed and Tara and burns a hole in the ceiling and burns a hole in the roof. That's what I was thinking. And that's not the case.

No, it causes, it compromises the strength structurally and so and it goes pretty quickly and it will collapse, particularly when they start hitting it with water. This is the other thing that folks don't realize. Did you know that? Like the when you take sheet rock, for instance, that's made out of gypsum. When you hit that with water, guess what it turns into inside of a fire scene when you can when you when you combine it with all of the other chart and it turns to mud. And so you're slogging through all of this and there's like pieces of wood other debris that have collapsed in and in one sense it protects the body, but in the other sense it erases evidence and the fact that with Terra they were able to identify sharp force injuries, blunt force injuries, which means she was struck probably multiple times. And I think the most glaring is that she was asphyxiated somehow, perhaps with ligature or hands. And you will see you will see this externally. Even I've had cases where people have been stabbed and cut and have been burned, you can still see the insized injuries. Here's the problem, though, As the body heats up, it hardens and it cracks. People don't realize that that the remains actually cracked. The skin cracks because you've got skin overlining a layer of fat, and as that cooks, it begins to split. And so being able to delineate between a sharp force injury and a fire related artifact, which is what these are called. It's a fire related artifact that presents on the body. It takes these autopsies, Dave take hours, hours to do because you're having to it's almost like putting together a jigsaw puzzle in mud because your vision is so compromised. That's why X rays are really important. Many times you'll X ray fire bodies. You'll find nails, you'll find screws, anything else that's around this area that may have fallen into the bag with the body when you're collecting them. Because most of the time you don't x ray the body outside of the back. You put the plates under the bag and you x ray the bodies while they're in there. So you have to account for all of this as you're going along. And also with fire, yes, you're thinking, well where they shot and if they were shot, are there going to be a little lead storm in there or maybe an intact projectile. So my gosh, man, it takes hours to make your way through it. Then on top of it, if that wasn't enough, fire fractures bone. The hotter the fire gets, particularly with the skull, the skull will begin to first off, the brain boils and it splits the skin outside the fire does the brain will boil almost not totally, but the liquid portion. Because the brain is not as firm as you might think it is in life. The brain will begin to expand inside the cranial vault, and the heat externally, combined with the internal events going on, will actually cause these kind of heat fractures in the skull. So you have to make your way through that. Is this related to say, blunt force trauma or is this related to an artifact?

No, it causes, it compromises the strength structurally and so and it goes pretty quickly and it will collapse, particularly when they start hitting it with water. This is the other thing that folks don't realize. Did you know that? Like the when you take sheet rock, for instance, that's made out of gypsum. When you hit that with water, guess what it turns into inside of a fire scene when you can when you when you combine it with all of the other chart and it turns to mud. And so you're slogging through all of this and there's like pieces of wood other debris that have collapsed in and in one sense it protects the body, but in the other sense it erases evidence and the fact that with Terra they were able to identify sharp force injuries, blunt force injuries, which means she was struck probably multiple times. And I think the most glaring is that she was asphyxiated somehow, perhaps with ligature or hands. And you will see you will see this externally. Even I've had cases where people have been stabbed and cut and have been burned, you can still see the insized injuries. Here's the problem, though, As the body heats up, it hardens and it cracks. People don't realize that that the remains actually cracked. The skin cracks because you've got skin overlining a layer of fat, and as that cooks, it begins to split. And so being able to delineate between a sharp force injury and a fire related artifact, which is what these are called. It's a fire related artifact that presents on the body. It takes these autopsies, Dave take hours, hours to do because you're having to it's almost like putting together a jigsaw puzzle in mud because your vision is so compromised. That's why X rays are really important. Many times you'll X ray fire bodies. You'll find nails, you'll find screws, anything else that's around this area that may have fallen into the bag with the body when you're collecting them. Because most of the time you don't x ray the body outside of the back. You put the plates under the bag and you x ray the bodies while they're in there. So you have to account for all of this as you're going along. And also with fire, yes, you're thinking, well where they shot and if they were shot, are there going to be a little lead storm in there or maybe an intact projectile. So my gosh, man, it takes hours to make your way through it. Then on top of it, if that wasn't enough, fire fractures bone. The hotter the fire gets, particularly with the skull, the skull will begin to first off, the brain boils and it splits the skin outside the fire does the brain will boil almost not totally, but the liquid portion. Because the brain is not as firm as you might think it is in life. The brain will begin to expand inside the cranial vault, and the heat externally, combined with the internal events going on, will actually cause these kind of heat fractures in the skull. So you have to make your way through that. Is this related to say, blunt force trauma or is this related to an artifact?

Uh?

Uh?

After after the fire has passed. Uh, So you've got the calculus in this thing. Fire fire deaths are a lot harder to work, for instance, than even decompos decomposed bodies, because you the body is continuing to be traumatized after death. The human remains. So it's a it's a tough thing. But but here's here's I think my point. Whatever they assessed at the time of her autopsy, Dave, they were able to recognize these three types of trauma which would be manifested internally. So if you've got a choking event or strangulation event, you'll see hemorrhage in the soft tissues of the neck, stab wounds you will have a track that is making its way through certain organ systems. You can pick up on that. The bludgeoning might be a bit more difficult. If it's a beating type type of event, you might can find areas of hemorrhage, but you really have to walk a find line there where you're trying to assess what happened anti mortem and post mortem. But here's the real thing here, this is where the truth comes out. They've they've used the term sodomy here. They're saying that she was sodomized. Now that means many different things to different people, but she was sexually assaulted. So if she was sexually assaulted, knowing what we know now, they were able to glean some type of biological sample from her, I think probably through a rate kit possibly, And they've been holding onto this all these years trying to explore and it would not surprise me in the least bit if potentially familial forensic genetic DNA genealogy was not involved in this, because it's taken all of this time, they have some kind of biological sample. Because Dave, it appears that DNA has unlocked the answers in this case.

After after the fire has passed. Uh, So you've got the calculus in this thing. Fire fire deaths are a lot harder to work, for instance, than even decompos decomposed bodies, because you the body is continuing to be traumatized after death. The human remains. So it's a it's a tough thing. But but here's here's I think my point. Whatever they assessed at the time of her autopsy, Dave, they were able to recognize these three types of trauma which would be manifested internally. So if you've got a choking event or strangulation event, you'll see hemorrhage in the soft tissues of the neck, stab wounds you will have a track that is making its way through certain organ systems. You can pick up on that. The bludgeoning might be a bit more difficult. If it's a beating type type of event, you might can find areas of hemorrhage, but you really have to walk a find line there where you're trying to assess what happened anti mortem and post mortem. But here's the real thing here, this is where the truth comes out. They've they've used the term sodomy here. They're saying that she was sodomized. Now that means many different things to different people, but she was sexually assaulted. So if she was sexually assaulted, knowing what we know now, they were able to glean some type of biological sample from her, I think probably through a rate kit possibly, And they've been holding onto this all these years trying to explore and it would not surprise me in the least bit if potentially familial forensic genetic DNA genealogy was not involved in this, because it's taken all of this time, they have some kind of biological sample. Because Dave, it appears that DNA has unlocked the answers in this case.

The part about this that again we talked about it earlier, the death of Lake and Riley that opened up the exercise of unsolved crimes in this area of the state, and this was one that was mentioned Joe. It had been an unsolved crime for so long, and we have had in the last ten years DNA becoming front and center on unsolved cold cases. At what point do the investigators decide it's time to run this through the database or is there another way? I mean, I know you have CODIS and we're developing a DNA thing like cotis, But at what point do they send this off and say, here's what we've got to see if you can find a match. Are we going to how are we going to what are we going to do? Genetic genealogy? Are we going to twenty three and meters? How do they go about doing that?

The part about this that again we talked about it earlier, the death of Lake and Riley that opened up the exercise of unsolved crimes in this area of the state, and this was one that was mentioned Joe. It had been an unsolved crime for so long, and we have had in the last ten years DNA becoming front and center on unsolved cold cases. At what point do the investigators decide it's time to run this through the database or is there another way? I mean, I know you have CODIS and we're developing a DNA thing like cotis, But at what point do they send this off and say, here's what we've got to see if you can find a match. Are we going to how are we going to what are we going to do? Genetic genealogy? Are we going to twenty three and meters? How do they go about doing that?

Well, they're going to exhaust every every potential possibility to have. CODIS is going to be the first stop along the continuum here to see if you can get a viable sample at that particular time. Does it go back to any individual that is already pre existing in the CODIS database, and there's two sections to CODIS, you have those individuals that are known that are part of the databank, that have committed some kind of crime that would compel the state to take a sample from them and enter them into that database. Then you have the unknown or it has in the past, it's been referred to as the forensic database, and that is DNA samples from locations where you you do not have a perpetrator. They're unknown cases, and they can get a hit off those. So if you've got a if you've got like say, two cases in Mississippi and Alabama, and maybe you've got another one in Tennessee, and all of a sudden you have a fourth one that occurs in Georgia, that's going to give you an indication that the the donor of that of that sample is migrating about. You just don't know who they are at this point, tom My, you know this this case is so over the top, Dave. It's really hard to believe that that this individual would not have acted out sexually before, because this is a very violent event where I think, actually, for you know, my two cents, I think that he probably held her in that residence for some time. Remember they're all alone, and what were we looking at is like twelve twelve hours, twelve hours for the fire has ever seen. So yeah, was this an all night event that went on where this individual perhaps tortured her throughout the night, where he beat her repeatedly, choked her repeatedly without killing her, or stabbed her, or you know, inflicted in sized wounds which are slices over a period of time.

Well, they're going to exhaust every every potential possibility to have. CODIS is going to be the first stop along the continuum here to see if you can get a viable sample at that particular time. Does it go back to any individual that is already pre existing in the CODIS database, and there's two sections to CODIS, you have those individuals that are known that are part of the databank, that have committed some kind of crime that would compel the state to take a sample from them and enter them into that database. Then you have the unknown or it has in the past, it's been referred to as the forensic database, and that is DNA samples from locations where you you do not have a perpetrator. They're unknown cases, and they can get a hit off those. So if you've got a if you've got like say, two cases in Mississippi and Alabama, and maybe you've got another one in Tennessee, and all of a sudden you have a fourth one that occurs in Georgia, that's going to give you an indication that the the donor of that of that sample is migrating about. You just don't know who they are at this point, tom My, you know this this case is so over the top, Dave. It's really hard to believe that that this individual would not have acted out sexually before, because this is a very violent event where I think, actually, for you know, my two cents, I think that he probably held her in that residence for some time. Remember they're all alone, and what were we looking at is like twelve twelve hours, twelve hours for the fire has ever seen. So yeah, was this an all night event that went on where this individual perhaps tortured her throughout the night, where he beat her repeatedly, choked her repeatedly without killing her, or stabbed her, or you know, inflicted in sized wounds which are slices over a period of time.

What we know is that during that twelve hours, Joe, a wonderful, beautiful, smart, loving person, was taken from planet Earth. And we now have, after twenty three years, we've had somebody in custody. The police have arrested Edric Lamont Faust. You mentioned this early on how that name would come into play. He was twenty five at the time of this murder. He's now forty eight. He has been charged with felony murder, two counts malice murder, aggravated assault, possession of a knife during the commission of a crime, aggravated soatomy, concealing the death of another person, tampering with evidence, and first degree arson Joe. Based on these charges, police learned a lot. Because they've got possession of a knife during the commission of a crime. Doesn't that mean that he brought it to the department.

What we know is that during that twelve hours, Joe, a wonderful, beautiful, smart, loving person, was taken from planet Earth. And we now have, after twenty three years, we've had somebody in custody. The police have arrested Edric Lamont Faust. You mentioned this early on how that name would come into play. He was twenty five at the time of this murder. He's now forty eight. He has been charged with felony murder, two counts malice murder, aggravated assault, possession of a knife during the commission of a crime, aggravated soatomy, concealing the death of another person, tampering with evidence, and first degree arson Joe. Based on these charges, police learned a lot. Because they've got possession of a knife during the commission of a crime. Doesn't that mean that he brought it to the department.

Yeah, yeah, I think that it probably does. And what we don't know because the investigation from the perspective of and hear me right, from the perspective of the fact that they have effected, finally affected and arrest, this investigation is kind of beginning anew you know now, because you have a target. Now, what we don't know is was the knife a leave behind or did they find it on his person when he was arrested. Which while that many years after the fact, I would list more towards having left behind and those injuries would have been assessed, the sharpforce injuries would have been assessed based upon the physical evidence that that particular type of knife or knife style would have left behind. And they have a lot to work with here. And you know, keep in mind, Faust has only been charged. He has not been convicted. He'll have his day in court. But something interesting came up as a result of Terra's homicide. The Georgia State Assembly, the General Assembly, actually passed a law called the Coleman Baker Act.

Yeah, yeah, I think that it probably does. And what we don't know because the investigation from the perspective of and hear me right, from the perspective of the fact that they have effected, finally affected and arrest, this investigation is kind of beginning anew you know now, because you have a target. Now, what we don't know is was the knife a leave behind or did they find it on his person when he was arrested. Which while that many years after the fact, I would list more towards having left behind and those injuries would have been assessed, the sharpforce injuries would have been assessed based upon the physical evidence that that particular type of knife or knife style would have left behind. And they have a lot to work with here. And you know, keep in mind, Faust has only been charged. He has not been convicted. He'll have his day in court. But something interesting came up as a result of Terra's homicide. The Georgia State Assembly, the General Assembly, actually passed a law called the Coleman Baker Act.

And it.

And it.

The other victim that's named in this case or in this law is a lady named Ronda Sue Coleman and she was murdered in Hazel. Her steort are back in nineteen ninety. And what this act actually does, Dave, is it it provides families with access to the files in these cold cases so that they can work alongside the police, that they can go back and see where the police are. And this thing was just filed in twenty twenty three. It was just written into law at that particular time, because you know, families are so frustrated. I can't even even though I've worked these cases over the years, these cold cases, I can not even begin to put myself in the position of families and the grief, the constant grief that they're faced with. But this one little shining light is beaming through, and unfortunately it's in the wake of the snuffing out of another shining light. Terror Baker died when she was only twenty one years old, just off campus of the University of Georgia. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Boddie Bags

The other victim that's named in this case or in this law is a lady named Ronda Sue Coleman and she was murdered in Hazel. Her steort are back in nineteen ninety. And what this act actually does, Dave, is it it provides families with access to the files in these cold cases so that they can work alongside the police, that they can go back and see where the police are. And this thing was just filed in twenty twenty three. It was just written into law at that particular time, because you know, families are so frustrated. I can't even even though I've worked these cases over the years, these cold cases, I can not even begin to put myself in the position of families and the grief, the constant grief that they're faced with. But this one little shining light is beaming through, and unfortunately it's in the wake of the snuffing out of another shining light. Terror Baker died when she was only twenty one years old, just off campus of the University of Georgia. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Boddie Bags

Mm hmm.

Mm hmm.