Body does, but Joseph's gotten more. My grandfather, who I referred to as papau and interestingly enough, my grandchildren refer to me as Papa, and it's a badge I wear with great pride. I loved both of my grandfathers, but there was one in particular that I spent a lot of time with as a child, and he was a big, big, robust man. He raised horses and mules, farmed, and then worked for the power company. In addition to that, he was always busy doing something. He was a man that was essentially afraid of nothing, at least in my young eyes. But I remember in nineteen eighty three, I hadn't seen my grandfather and I don't know, probably two years, and I went to visit him in his home in the Louisiana and when I did, he was a shell of his former self, metasac brain cancer had literally eaten him alive. He still recognized me, though, and we spent hours talking. Cancer is something that you hate any you hate to see anybody go through, and it's there's this ominous feeling that you get when you get that diagnosis. I've had other members of my family that have died as well from cancer. But just imagine, if you will, a case so sinister that a cancer diagnosis pales when it comes to the truth of what acts happened to a woman who was alleged to have had terminal cancer, but yet she disappears off of the face of the planet. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Bodybacks, David. You know, I've always thought, I've always had it in the back of my mind. You can call me a conspiracy theorist. I don't care. I've always had in the back of my mind that there is a cure for cancer out there, and it's just it hasn't come about. I think probably for monetary reasons. That's what it comes down to. I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole. I don't want to get you fired up today, but I see it, and I see you know, I've seen the you know, as a death investigator particularly, I've seen the end results. You know. I've had to go to many homes or people have passed away that had cancer and they may have died for other reasons, but they had cancer and there's that withering and it's so sad because it's this slow march that goes on. And you know, Dave, it's something when you can actually find the case that we're going to talk about today where you know, cancer plays in this diagnoses of cancer plays in to the narrative. But it's, like I said in my opening, this is something even more sinister, I think than cancer.

Body does, but Joseph's gotten more. My grandfather, who I referred to as papau and interestingly enough, my grandchildren refer to me as Papa, and it's a badge I wear with great pride. I loved both of my grandfathers, but there was one in particular that I spent a lot of time with as a child, and he was a big, big, robust man. He raised horses and mules, farmed, and then worked for the power company. In addition to that, he was always busy doing something. He was a man that was essentially afraid of nothing, at least in my young eyes. But I remember in nineteen eighty three, I hadn't seen my grandfather and I don't know, probably two years, and I went to visit him in his home in the Louisiana and when I did, he was a shell of his former self, metasac brain cancer had literally eaten him alive. He still recognized me, though, and we spent hours talking. Cancer is something that you hate any you hate to see anybody go through, and it's there's this ominous feeling that you get when you get that diagnosis. I've had other members of my family that have died as well from cancer. But just imagine, if you will, a case so sinister that a cancer diagnosis pales when it comes to the truth of what acts happened to a woman who was alleged to have had terminal cancer, but yet she disappears off of the face of the planet. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Bodybacks, David. You know, I've always thought, I've always had it in the back of my mind. You can call me a conspiracy theorist. I don't care. I've always had in the back of my mind that there is a cure for cancer out there, and it's just it hasn't come about. I think probably for monetary reasons. That's what it comes down to. I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole. I don't want to get you fired up today, but I see it, and I see you know, I've seen the you know, as a death investigator particularly, I've seen the end results. You know. I've had to go to many homes or people have passed away that had cancer and they may have died for other reasons, but they had cancer and there's that withering and it's so sad because it's this slow march that goes on. And you know, Dave, it's something when you can actually find the case that we're going to talk about today where you know, cancer plays in this diagnoses of cancer plays in to the narrative. But it's, like I said in my opening, this is something even more sinister, I think than cancer.

Using cancer as the explanation for where a person has gone, might have gone, why they're missing, because that's what actually happened. Seventy six year old Jackie Glenn is missing, and any person of that age that just goes missing. And in this case, she has children, adult children, she has three grandchildren that call her Yaya, and they want to know where she is. And her husband, who is stepfather to her adult children, tells them, well, she's recently diagnosed with cancer terminal and you know, maybe she just decided to go away. I mean, it was a very flimsy excuse and by the way, easily checkable for those of us which who have a family member or maybe you yourself have suffered from cancer, to use that as this placeholder.

Using cancer as the explanation for where a person has gone, might have gone, why they're missing, because that's what actually happened. Seventy six year old Jackie Glenn is missing, and any person of that age that just goes missing. And in this case, she has children, adult children, she has three grandchildren that call her Yaya, and they want to know where she is. And her husband, who is stepfather to her adult children, tells them, well, she's recently diagnosed with cancer terminal and you know, maybe she just decided to go away. I mean, it was a very flimsy excuse and by the way, easily checkable for those of us which who have a family member or maybe you yourself have suffered from cancer, to use that as this placeholder.

Oh, it's just despicable. It's hard, you know, I say, I use this term a lot. It's really hard to plumb the depths of how of how sickening this is. And you talk about verification. In my experience working for a medical examiner's office and we have to deal with cases involving cancer where for any number of reasons, you might be requested by family to do an autopsy and they're they're asking you to examine the body in the post mortem state to see if the diagnosis was accurate. Because I don't know if folks are aware of this. Many times it's very hard for a family to convince a hospital pathologist to do an autopsy. They don't lean into the practice as much as they did at one point in time. And so I've been involved both as an autopsy assistant and as an investigator in cases of cancer. And when you see these ravaged bodies, you know that come before you and you're doing this, and it's as a as an observer first off, as you know, as an employee at a medical examiner's office, you see the pathology that's before you, and you see the progression that has taken place. As a family member that has gone through this, it really it's a real kick in the head if you will, that someone would take this and use it to essentially offer up a reason why this woman would disappear off of the face of the planet. Now, this happened actually up in Nashville. This has been an ongoing case for some time. But you know, thankfully the family has some resolution now. But Dave, here's something I'd like to ask about. I think I think that at some point along the way what they referred to as a silver alert was issued relative to this poor woman. Is that correct.

Oh, it's just despicable. It's hard, you know, I say, I use this term a lot. It's really hard to plumb the depths of how of how sickening this is. And you talk about verification. In my experience working for a medical examiner's office and we have to deal with cases involving cancer where for any number of reasons, you might be requested by family to do an autopsy and they're they're asking you to examine the body in the post mortem state to see if the diagnosis was accurate. Because I don't know if folks are aware of this. Many times it's very hard for a family to convince a hospital pathologist to do an autopsy. They don't lean into the practice as much as they did at one point in time. And so I've been involved both as an autopsy assistant and as an investigator in cases of cancer. And when you see these ravaged bodies, you know that come before you and you're doing this, and it's as a as an observer first off, as you know, as an employee at a medical examiner's office, you see the pathology that's before you, and you see the progression that has taken place. As a family member that has gone through this, it really it's a real kick in the head if you will, that someone would take this and use it to essentially offer up a reason why this woman would disappear off of the face of the planet. Now, this happened actually up in Nashville. This has been an ongoing case for some time. But you know, thankfully the family has some resolution now. But Dave, here's something I'd like to ask about. I think I think that at some point along the way what they referred to as a silver alert was issued relative to this poor woman. Is that correct.

That's what they do with seniors that go missing, and different than an amber alert, And the silver alert is something that we see when it applies to an older person who has gone missing. And in this case, I actually was looking at the terminology. You know, it's to me it's a fairly new one. It could have been around for a long time. I don't remember. I just know that I've just certainly picked up on it.

That's what they do with seniors that go missing, and different than an amber alert, And the silver alert is something that we see when it applies to an older person who has gone missing. And in this case, I actually was looking at the terminology. You know, it's to me it's a fairly new one. It could have been around for a long time. I don't remember. I just know that I've just certainly picked up on it.

Yeah, I think it is new or day. I think you're right, brother.

Yeah, I think it is new or day. I think you're right, brother.

Yeah, yeah, So they issued the silver warning or warning bullet bulletin rather sorry, the silver aller was issued, he says.

Yeah, yeah, So they issued the silver warning or warning bullet bulletin rather sorry, the silver aller was issued, he says.

Joe.

Joe.

The silver aller says, please help us find Jackie Glenn seventy six, last scene January first, at her abbot Martin rode home and you know, she drives this car and whatever. Very simple, but she's missing. They don't give an explanation as to what's going on in her world or anything else at this point, though, I'm gonna be honest, Joe, I wonder how quickly police were onto this, and I think it was fairly early on because as they're investigating, the first person they're going to talk to is going to be the spouse in this particular case, seventy year old Joseph Glynn, and he's going to tell them what happened, which is all fresh. It's happened January first, Okay, January first is when they issue the silver alert that she's missing. And it didn't take long for all this to turn around very quickly because the family, first of all, their stepfather is telling them she has terminal cancer and went somewhere to be herself maybe, and they didn't buy it. Look, let me give you a background on Jackie Glenn. This is a very accomplished woman. Joe I was amazed by this. She basically had two major careers. Very educated by the way. She actually earned her bachelor's degree from Peabody College of Education and then later earned a master's degree of marketing. Her two careers first one was spent in education. Her focus was on helping children that were on the spectrum, children who had learning issues and things like that. That was her passion. Joe, can you imagine what type of person. I have a niece that does this and I know she's very special and being able to deal with these children helping them loom. That was Jackie Glynn. And then she decided to follow her next step, which was as a wedding planner, a party planner, a marketing person.

The silver aller says, please help us find Jackie Glenn seventy six, last scene January first, at her abbot Martin rode home and you know, she drives this car and whatever. Very simple, but she's missing. They don't give an explanation as to what's going on in her world or anything else at this point, though, I'm gonna be honest, Joe, I wonder how quickly police were onto this, and I think it was fairly early on because as they're investigating, the first person they're going to talk to is going to be the spouse in this particular case, seventy year old Joseph Glynn, and he's going to tell them what happened, which is all fresh. It's happened January first, Okay, January first is when they issue the silver alert that she's missing. And it didn't take long for all this to turn around very quickly because the family, first of all, their stepfather is telling them she has terminal cancer and went somewhere to be herself maybe, and they didn't buy it. Look, let me give you a background on Jackie Glenn. This is a very accomplished woman. Joe I was amazed by this. She basically had two major careers. Very educated by the way. She actually earned her bachelor's degree from Peabody College of Education and then later earned a master's degree of marketing. Her two careers first one was spent in education. Her focus was on helping children that were on the spectrum, children who had learning issues and things like that. That was her passion. Joe, can you imagine what type of person. I have a niece that does this and I know she's very special and being able to deal with these children helping them loom. That was Jackie Glynn. And then she decided to follow her next step, which was as a wedding planner, a party planner, a marketing person.

That's what she did.

That's what she did.

She's got this educated, full time career and decides all right, time for something new, and she is a very successful wedding event benu planner. She actually opens up Riverwood Mansion, very successful. And she likes to travel, so she would take the girls. You know, I say the girls meaning could be sister's granddaughter, anybody, but female trip, you know, like we would do a guy trip, you me, And well, they did girl trips. And these girl trips weren't too chatoogie river to go fishing. It was They're going to Tuscany and France and Ireland and you know, just these huge trips that she would find. I mean, this was a very special woman for a lot of people. And just reading a her and thinking what a heart she has for people, and to hear that she's been diagnosed with a terminal illness, terminal cancer and has just vanished the family was like, that's not the mother the grandmother that I know.

She's got this educated, full time career and decides all right, time for something new, and she is a very successful wedding event benu planner. She actually opens up Riverwood Mansion, very successful. And she likes to travel, so she would take the girls. You know, I say the girls meaning could be sister's granddaughter, anybody, but female trip, you know, like we would do a guy trip, you me, And well, they did girl trips. And these girl trips weren't too chatoogie river to go fishing. It was They're going to Tuscany and France and Ireland and you know, just these huge trips that she would find. I mean, this was a very special woman for a lot of people. And just reading a her and thinking what a heart she has for people, and to hear that she's been diagnosed with a terminal illness, terminal cancer and has just vanished the family was like, that's not the mother the grandmother that I know.

Yeah, And I tell you, Dave, that's a basic element in an investigative procedure. And a woman that is this outgoing and that has so many people kind of orbiting her sphere. You know, when you think about the lives that she's contacted, first off as an educator and then my gosh, wedding planning, he real is how many people you have to come in contact with with that profession. And it's not like she's completely disconnected from her family if she's doing these are very intimate moments that she has where she's going abroad. I mean, all you gotta do is pack into a hotel room with somebody, or on a cruise with somebody for a couple of days or a week, and you get to know them very well, and plus you've already got familial attachments. How in the world would anybody think that they could put forth this idea that she is dying of a terminal diagnosis, and that no one would have heard peep from her about this. That's what's so striking about this day. To me, at least, it's very I think you'd use the term it's a very thin kind of excuse, and it's easily explored. The thing about cancer diagnoses is that if you have family, many times families are in on decisions that are made. And I'm not talking about like end of life things. What I'm talking about is how are we going to coordinate getting someone to and from treatment. That is a big part of terminal illness with cancer. The reason is is that the treatments that they offer weak in the body so much that you're as weak as a newborn kid, and afterwards not to mention your markedly sick as well. So it requires like several people many times to do this. Most of the time it's going to be a family member, somebody in your intimate circling. As you had mentioned this husband of hers, the stepfather to her children. He would be the first point of contact we would want to explore with because he's already put this narrative out there invested from an investigative standpoint. He told her children specifically that she has been diagnosed and that she has and this is kind of the curious thing. In consultation with her physician that is treating her, she's going to go make these end of life decisions, which again is very very ominous, and of course the trail eventually goes cold. The fact that her husband would offer up this information to her children that their mother has made a decision about end of life preparations per her physician is somewhat ominous, and of course the trail goes cold. They have no idea where their mother is. So Jackie Glenn Dave is married to this man, Joe Glenn, and he has put forth this idea that Jackie is involved with what he names as a support group. And here's kind of the chilling thing, so that she could die on her terms and she just vanishes off the face of the planet. And it's at that point in time that you know, I think that the children, you know, they suspect a rat here. They have to because after the silver alert is issued and she's they're looking for a car, her car, and it's like a twenty ten rab four SUV with Tennessee plates. Now I see these cars on the road, But have you ever have you ever gotten startled awake in the middle of the night by your phone going off with one of these alerts. It makes me jump out of my skin almost when these things go off. And the first time you hear one of these things, and it's generally for an Amber alert a missing child, it blasts out this message that they're looking for a specific vehicle. Now, I've had these go off in the day, and I can catch myself when they give a vehicle script on these, my head gets on the swivel. I start seeing these cars everywhere, and I'm thinking, you know, is this is this the you know, is this the person that's missing? Or in most cases with Amber alerts, many times it's some kind of domestic beef between a mom and a dad and the mom or the dad have snatched the kids and they're running off with them, and of course you're going to be looking around you. You're kind of hyper aware, if you will. But nothing developed from this.

Yeah, And I tell you, Dave, that's a basic element in an investigative procedure. And a woman that is this outgoing and that has so many people kind of orbiting her sphere. You know, when you think about the lives that she's contacted, first off as an educator and then my gosh, wedding planning, he real is how many people you have to come in contact with with that profession. And it's not like she's completely disconnected from her family if she's doing these are very intimate moments that she has where she's going abroad. I mean, all you gotta do is pack into a hotel room with somebody, or on a cruise with somebody for a couple of days or a week, and you get to know them very well, and plus you've already got familial attachments. How in the world would anybody think that they could put forth this idea that she is dying of a terminal diagnosis, and that no one would have heard peep from her about this. That's what's so striking about this day. To me, at least, it's very I think you'd use the term it's a very thin kind of excuse, and it's easily explored. The thing about cancer diagnoses is that if you have family, many times families are in on decisions that are made. And I'm not talking about like end of life things. What I'm talking about is how are we going to coordinate getting someone to and from treatment. That is a big part of terminal illness with cancer. The reason is is that the treatments that they offer weak in the body so much that you're as weak as a newborn kid, and afterwards not to mention your markedly sick as well. So it requires like several people many times to do this. Most of the time it's going to be a family member, somebody in your intimate circling. As you had mentioned this husband of hers, the stepfather to her children. He would be the first point of contact we would want to explore with because he's already put this narrative out there invested from an investigative standpoint. He told her children specifically that she has been diagnosed and that she has and this is kind of the curious thing. In consultation with her physician that is treating her, she's going to go make these end of life decisions, which again is very very ominous, and of course the trail eventually goes cold. The fact that her husband would offer up this information to her children that their mother has made a decision about end of life preparations per her physician is somewhat ominous, and of course the trail goes cold. They have no idea where their mother is. So Jackie Glenn Dave is married to this man, Joe Glenn, and he has put forth this idea that Jackie is involved with what he names as a support group. And here's kind of the chilling thing, so that she could die on her terms and she just vanishes off the face of the planet. And it's at that point in time that you know, I think that the children, you know, they suspect a rat here. They have to because after the silver alert is issued and she's they're looking for a car, her car, and it's like a twenty ten rab four SUV with Tennessee plates. Now I see these cars on the road, But have you ever have you ever gotten startled awake in the middle of the night by your phone going off with one of these alerts. It makes me jump out of my skin almost when these things go off. And the first time you hear one of these things, and it's generally for an Amber alert a missing child, it blasts out this message that they're looking for a specific vehicle. Now, I've had these go off in the day, and I can catch myself when they give a vehicle script on these, my head gets on the swivel. I start seeing these cars everywhere, and I'm thinking, you know, is this is this the you know, is this the person that's missing? Or in most cases with Amber alerts, many times it's some kind of domestic beef between a mom and a dad and the mom or the dad have snatched the kids and they're running off with them, and of course you're going to be looking around you. You're kind of hyper aware, if you will. But nothing developed from this.

Dave I started looking about how would the family would how would Jackie's family react to stepfather giving them these intimate details of her life when he's he's not their dad, you know, for the grandkids that they know him as papa or whatever.

Dave I started looking about how would the family would how would Jackie's family react to stepfather giving them these intimate details of her life when he's he's not their dad, you know, for the grandkids that they know him as papa or whatever.

You know.

You know.

But they've only been married twenty four years, Jackie Glenn and Joe Glenn, So I say, only you know, twenty four years. But she's seventy six, so that means she's in her early fifties when they marry, an established entrepreneur, educator.

But they've only been married twenty four years, Jackie Glenn and Joe Glenn, So I say, only you know, twenty four years. But she's seventy six, so that means she's in her early fifties when they marry, an established entrepreneur, educator.

And so.

And so.

I don't know how the family felt about Joseph Glenn. I do know that they did not bite hook lion sinker on his story that she has terminal cancer, is in a support group and has just abandoned everybody she loves and cares about, going against everything they know about her as their mother and grandmother, and.

I don't know how the family felt about Joseph Glenn. I do know that they did not bite hook lion sinker on his story that she has terminal cancer, is in a support group and has just abandoned everybody she loves and cares about, going against everything they know about her as their mother and grandmother, and.

Just takes off.

Just takes off.

So police immediately are talking to Joseph Glenn, and it takes no time at all to talk to a doctor. Hey, Joe, terminal cancer, who's your doctor? This is not a heavy lift figuring out you know what happened? And it's the police. They're calling the doctor. No, you can't share a lot of information, doctor, But she's missing, and husband's suggesting that maybe she has taken off because she doesn't want to die. In front of her family or something. What do you suspect is going on here? Well, I suspect that if he doesn't have cancer? Really yeah, yeah, they couldn't the doctor. The doctor said, I'm not treating her for this. And that's that's what makes this so ridiculous when you begin to think about it, because this is this is a specific diagnosis. This is not this is not some kind of thing that's kind of floating out in the ether.

So police immediately are talking to Joseph Glenn, and it takes no time at all to talk to a doctor. Hey, Joe, terminal cancer, who's your doctor? This is not a heavy lift figuring out you know what happened? And it's the police. They're calling the doctor. No, you can't share a lot of information, doctor, But she's missing, and husband's suggesting that maybe she has taken off because she doesn't want to die. In front of her family or something. What do you suspect is going on here? Well, I suspect that if he doesn't have cancer? Really yeah, yeah, they couldn't the doctor. The doctor said, I'm not treating her for this. And that's that's what makes this so ridiculous when you begin to think about it, because this is this is a specific diagnosis. This is not this is not some kind of thing that's kind of floating out in the ether.

Uh. This is very specific because before doctors will actually make a diagnosis like this, there's all kinds of testing that you go through. You can have certainly extensive blood work that's performed. If there is a tumor that they suspect as a tumor, they're going to go in and do a section of that, perhaps maybe a fine needle aspiration or one of these things, and first off, they're going to see if this is the primary tumor. They're going to see if it's you know, perhaps has metastasized somewhere else. And not to mention all of the imaging, Dave, So we're we're not talking about a process where you walk into a doctor's office and you've got a raging head cold and they see you, they might do a head X ray for whatever reason. I don't know why, but they're going to say this is probably an advanced state. You've got an advanced case of sin. You sidus. Here, We're going to put you on some antibiotics. Here's some decongestion. It's not that passive. This is something that involves multiple people. But I can tell you who I think smelled a rat with this and this is this is actually Jackie's son, because you know he I think, if I'm not mistaken, he had an app that he had access to that could track her phone everywhere window he.

Uh. This is very specific because before doctors will actually make a diagnosis like this, there's all kinds of testing that you go through. You can have certainly extensive blood work that's performed. If there is a tumor that they suspect as a tumor, they're going to go in and do a section of that, perhaps maybe a fine needle aspiration or one of these things, and first off, they're going to see if this is the primary tumor. They're going to see if it's you know, perhaps has metastasized somewhere else. And not to mention all of the imaging, Dave, So we're we're not talking about a process where you walk into a doctor's office and you've got a raging head cold and they see you, they might do a head X ray for whatever reason. I don't know why, but they're going to say this is probably an advanced state. You've got an advanced case of sin. You sidus. Here, We're going to put you on some antibiotics. Here's some decongestion. It's not that passive. This is something that involves multiple people. But I can tell you who I think smelled a rat with this and this is this is actually Jackie's son, because you know he I think, if I'm not mistaken, he had an app that he had access to that could track her phone everywhere window he.

Has life three sixty and they're able to because immediately, well we got to find her, and he steps up and says, well, I've got this app, let's try that. And it led them to odd driving patterns of Joe Glenn, not Jackie Joe, and it didn't take the investigators long to bring Joe in and sweat him. Got to find out what happened, Joe tell us. And that's where based on the information and Joe, You've been much more involved in this than I have. At the investigative level, what are we looking for because we are in the first couple of days. She missing on January first, and they're talking to Joe that week, Joe Glenn, the husband. What condition are we expecting to find her body in at this stage of the game, assuming she's dead, are police going to do that? Or in talking with this husband, are they going to assume he killed her already and she's gone. I mean, he's not hiding her. Why would he hide his own wife? Where are they going to Are they going to jump to any conclusions here?

Has life three sixty and they're able to because immediately, well we got to find her, and he steps up and says, well, I've got this app, let's try that. And it led them to odd driving patterns of Joe Glenn, not Jackie Joe, and it didn't take the investigators long to bring Joe in and sweat him. Got to find out what happened, Joe tell us. And that's where based on the information and Joe, You've been much more involved in this than I have. At the investigative level, what are we looking for because we are in the first couple of days. She missing on January first, and they're talking to Joe that week, Joe Glenn, the husband. What condition are we expecting to find her body in at this stage of the game, assuming she's dead, are police going to do that? Or in talking with this husband, are they going to assume he killed her already and she's gone. I mean, he's not hiding her. Why would he hide his own wife? Where are they going to Are they going to jump to any conclusions here?

Well, I don't know that they necessarily jump to conclusions, but they're going to target, you know, again, an intimate They're going to target that person that has acts in control or potential access and control over the life of somebody that they share a home with, that they're in an intimate relationship with. And one of the first things that you want to do is to if she's not at the house, if they have thoroughly searched that property gone from stem discern there, you have to ask yourself, well, does Joe Glenn have any other property? Are there any other locations that he might frequent where she could be Because you're seeing this movement and electronic forensics is fascinating if you think about this phone kind of pinging about and it's traveling in tandem perhaps with his you get this idea that he's going to know where she was lasting alive, and you've got these things traveling in tandem, and that's very hard if you're a suspect. That's very difficult to explain away. Reflecting back to the young airman from the Air Force that had gone to the Mennonite Mennonite compound, I think I think it was New Mexico where this occurred, and he kidnapped the young Mennonite woman and you could see their phones traveling in tandem down the road, and of course he winds up killing her and burying her back in Arizona, and that's very hard to escape. I think as far as circumstantial evidence goes that you know, because you're still in the mode as an investigator, you're still in the mode that this is a missing person, okay, up to a point. Now you can when you begin to hear what he is saying to try to explain it away, it becomes progressively more ominous and dark because you know that she just doesn't vanish merely off the face of the planet. You're wondering, well, if you have, if you've been traveling with her, or least her phone, how is it that you came to be in possession of her phone? Why is it that she would drop completely out of contact in order to go get this care that she was seeking per her physician, with her support group. Because once you get caught up in that lie, the intensity of the light that you're going to be under relative to the cops is going to brighten all the more, and they're going to look into every comment that you've made, every movement that you've made, any other peripheral statements that you may have mentioned to family members, co workers, anything like that. So that's going to put them in a position where they're going to zero in on you. And I think that the big question. And I know, and you know, I hate why, But let's just say what what would have been his motivation for lying about this? What would be his motivation to essentially make her vanish off the face of the planet. And that's what the police are faced with, Dave.

Well, I don't know that they necessarily jump to conclusions, but they're going to target, you know, again, an intimate They're going to target that person that has acts in control or potential access and control over the life of somebody that they share a home with, that they're in an intimate relationship with. And one of the first things that you want to do is to if she's not at the house, if they have thoroughly searched that property gone from stem discern there, you have to ask yourself, well, does Joe Glenn have any other property? Are there any other locations that he might frequent where she could be Because you're seeing this movement and electronic forensics is fascinating if you think about this phone kind of pinging about and it's traveling in tandem perhaps with his you get this idea that he's going to know where she was lasting alive, and you've got these things traveling in tandem, and that's very hard if you're a suspect. That's very difficult to explain away. Reflecting back to the young airman from the Air Force that had gone to the Mennonite Mennonite compound, I think I think it was New Mexico where this occurred, and he kidnapped the young Mennonite woman and you could see their phones traveling in tandem down the road, and of course he winds up killing her and burying her back in Arizona, and that's very hard to escape. I think as far as circumstantial evidence goes that you know, because you're still in the mode as an investigator, you're still in the mode that this is a missing person, okay, up to a point. Now you can when you begin to hear what he is saying to try to explain it away, it becomes progressively more ominous and dark because you know that she just doesn't vanish merely off the face of the planet. You're wondering, well, if you have, if you've been traveling with her, or least her phone, how is it that you came to be in possession of her phone? Why is it that she would drop completely out of contact in order to go get this care that she was seeking per her physician, with her support group. Because once you get caught up in that lie, the intensity of the light that you're going to be under relative to the cops is going to brighten all the more, and they're going to look into every comment that you've made, every movement that you've made, any other peripheral statements that you may have mentioned to family members, co workers, anything like that. So that's going to put them in a position where they're going to zero in on you. And I think that the big question. And I know, and you know, I hate why, But let's just say what what would have been his motivation for lying about this? What would be his motivation to essentially make her vanish off the face of the planet. And that's what the police are faced with, Dave.

Interesting that the family totally shocked to their core. Interesting in that they were involved with helping the police determine who the victim is in Jackie Glenn, what type of individual she is? What would they expect? And they're talking about this, you know, in such a way that the police really know that she didn't leave, and they are able to as you say, they zero went on Joe Glenn. And once they get Joe Glenn in a room and they're hitting him with Okay, buddy, you said she's got terminal cancer. She doesn't. We've tracked her phone with you and you're making all these tracks. Now granted it's see your own property that you own, but still, why are you doing all this when your wife supposedly is missing? And he has no explanation? So Joe, it doesn't take long for Joe Glenn to cough up to the investigators what they're looking for. And as far as interviews with police go, the ones that I tend to see are are the crazy ones where somebody's trying to lie their way out of a jam. Rarely do we see an interview or hear of an interview that goes like this one. Did Joe?

Interesting that the family totally shocked to their core. Interesting in that they were involved with helping the police determine who the victim is in Jackie Glenn, what type of individual she is? What would they expect? And they're talking about this, you know, in such a way that the police really know that she didn't leave, and they are able to as you say, they zero went on Joe Glenn. And once they get Joe Glenn in a room and they're hitting him with Okay, buddy, you said she's got terminal cancer. She doesn't. We've tracked her phone with you and you're making all these tracks. Now granted it's see your own property that you own, but still, why are you doing all this when your wife supposedly is missing? And he has no explanation? So Joe, it doesn't take long for Joe Glenn to cough up to the investigators what they're looking for. And as far as interviews with police go, the ones that I tend to see are are the crazy ones where somebody's trying to lie their way out of a jam. Rarely do we see an interview or hear of an interview that goes like this one. Did Joe?

Yeah? Yeah, And in very short order, the police were able to determine what had happened to Jackie Glenn's body. But Dave, when I tell you what he had done to her and with her. It's going to send a chill Danner spine. My wife and I travel quite a bit, Dave, you know, generally short trips. I mean, we do take trips overseas every now and then. It's generally work related, but I like to have my grandkids with me and so we don't stray too far away from the American South. Go to the beach in the South, go the mountains in the South, that sort of thing. But one thing I never could quite get right, even as a young father, was one of those luggage carrier things that you have to strap to the roof of a car. I don't know what it is. I guess I was intimidated by them always and I always bottom used so that we're probably always busted every single one that I had, and I had a tough time kind of getting things arranged. But Dave, I got to tell you, you know, when the police began to interview this man and he made this big reveal regarding Jackie, it led the police to a location where he had actually disposed of her body, and he used a very unique method, I think, and one of the things that kind of trips criminals up many times in regards to the burial of a body. It didn't they recover her remains on property that Joe Glenn owned.

Yeah? Yeah, And in very short order, the police were able to determine what had happened to Jackie Glenn's body. But Dave, when I tell you what he had done to her and with her. It's going to send a chill Danner spine. My wife and I travel quite a bit, Dave, you know, generally short trips. I mean, we do take trips overseas every now and then. It's generally work related, but I like to have my grandkids with me and so we don't stray too far away from the American South. Go to the beach in the South, go the mountains in the South, that sort of thing. But one thing I never could quite get right, even as a young father, was one of those luggage carrier things that you have to strap to the roof of a car. I don't know what it is. I guess I was intimidated by them always and I always bottom used so that we're probably always busted every single one that I had, and I had a tough time kind of getting things arranged. But Dave, I got to tell you, you know, when the police began to interview this man and he made this big reveal regarding Jackie, it led the police to a location where he had actually disposed of her body, and he used a very unique method, I think, and one of the things that kind of trips criminals up many times in regards to the burial of a body. It didn't they recover her remains on property that Joe Glenn owned.

To back up, Joe Glenn admitted to killing her. Just so we know, Joe Glenn confessed to police. They hit him with all this evidence they've you know, as we were mentioning a minute ago about his travels with Jackie that the cancer nothing makes sense. Joe tells what happened, and at first he tells them what he did to her. And you and I deal with Nancy Grace on her show, and you do so many other shows. We oftentimes talk about when a person begins to plan a murder, and you know, there's always that moment of when they decided to go for it, and it could be in the blink of an eye. Right, We've heard that, and you know, yeah, I'm like, but anyway, he can't Joe, as he explains how he killed his wife of twenty four years, he can't claim it was just spur of the moment. Got into an argument and I grab what was nearest and started bashing because weeks before he killed his wife on January first, and the day the missed the silver missing alert went out three weeks before then. He had a guy digging a trench out on property. They owned a big trench, and he also bought a plastic tarp and he bought a couple of other things that came into play when he kills his wife on January first. So the idea that he had this planned out ahead of time kind of lays out before you. It's not like, Joe, I can't believe what happened. We got into really horrible argument and I just I was so mad and I hit her with a hammer. Can't even say that he planned it by the ditch, by the arm, dude, he beat her to death with a hammer.

To back up, Joe Glenn admitted to killing her. Just so we know, Joe Glenn confessed to police. They hit him with all this evidence they've you know, as we were mentioning a minute ago about his travels with Jackie that the cancer nothing makes sense. Joe tells what happened, and at first he tells them what he did to her. And you and I deal with Nancy Grace on her show, and you do so many other shows. We oftentimes talk about when a person begins to plan a murder, and you know, there's always that moment of when they decided to go for it, and it could be in the blink of an eye. Right, We've heard that, and you know, yeah, I'm like, but anyway, he can't Joe, as he explains how he killed his wife of twenty four years, he can't claim it was just spur of the moment. Got into an argument and I grab what was nearest and started bashing because weeks before he killed his wife on January first, and the day the missed the silver missing alert went out three weeks before then. He had a guy digging a trench out on property. They owned a big trench, and he also bought a plastic tarp and he bought a couple of other things that came into play when he kills his wife on January first. So the idea that he had this planned out ahead of time kind of lays out before you. It's not like, Joe, I can't believe what happened. We got into really horrible argument and I just I was so mad and I hit her with a hammer. Can't even say that he planned it by the ditch, by the arm, dude, he beat her to death with a hammer.

Joe, Yeah, no. And this is you know, we talk about many times in cases, this factor of premeditative events, where there's a lot of planning involved in this. And here's the thing. Many people will be very meticulous about what they're going to do with an individual. I think that until they're actually faced with with what the future holds for them, it's like they don't give that consideration. But they'll go through these stages. Do you realize what it would take to have somebody come out and trench out an area on a piece of property. And this is this piece of property that they owned is essentially in it's a there are multiple lots around this area where you're going to have home builds that are going to go in. And that's a big piece of property and it's outside of Nashville. He specifically asked someone to trench this area out. Now here's problem one. Now you're involving a separate subject. Okay, you're involving this individual to help you, and they might not be aware of it. Help you facilitate a crime. Okay, and you can do this without knowing it. You know, man owns the property. Wan's going to come out and trench something out? Okay, Yeah, that's what I do. I've got the equipment. I'll tell you what my hourly rate is, and you paid me and done and done.

Joe, Yeah, no. And this is you know, we talk about many times in cases, this factor of premeditative events, where there's a lot of planning involved in this. And here's the thing. Many people will be very meticulous about what they're going to do with an individual. I think that until they're actually faced with with what the future holds for them, it's like they don't give that consideration. But they'll go through these stages. Do you realize what it would take to have somebody come out and trench out an area on a piece of property. And this is this piece of property that they owned is essentially in it's a there are multiple lots around this area where you're going to have home builds that are going to go in. And that's a big piece of property and it's outside of Nashville. He specifically asked someone to trench this area out. Now here's problem one. Now you're involving a separate subject. Okay, you're involving this individual to help you, and they might not be aware of it. Help you facilitate a crime. Okay, and you can do this without knowing it. You know, man owns the property. Wan's going to come out and trench something out? Okay, Yeah, that's what I do. I've got the equipment. I'll tell you what my hourly rate is, and you paid me and done and done.

The fact a leert on your phone and you're like, hey, I know this guy.

The fact a leert on your phone and you're like, hey, I know this guy.

I know exactly the car. Yeah, that's got to be just absolutely terrifying. So in this he had gone to great links to plan first off, where he was going to place a body once he wound up killing his wife. And then I've been thinking about to Steve, and I'm wondering does he stop midstream throughout all of this, after he's gone through all these elaborate steps to facilitate this, and he's thinking, oh my gosh, now what am I going to tell everybody? How do I explain that that she's vanished at this point time? Oh, I've got it cancer, you know, And so that pops into his mind and this is the most expedient thing that he can do relative to this. But Dave, you know, once they started putting pressure on him, you know, I think that she died on January first, twenty twenty four, and they wind up within four days of recovering her remains. So he spilled all of the beans, all of the work that he had put into this. But you know that you talk about that it was you know, you think people think, well, what could have driven him to rage like this? Well, this was not a reactionary event, Dave. This was not a reactionary event because you think about hammer and you think, well, we got into a fight. As you had mentioned, you pick up the closest object, which we refer to as a weapon of convenience, and then you begin to attack somebody viciously. Because hammer attacks are beyond the pale. No, he had been thinking about this weeks in advance. He had time. This is the tough part. He had time. If you're going to kill somebody, you know, why is it I'm using the word why. What would be your motivation for doing it in such a brutal manner? Do you not have a.

I know exactly the car. Yeah, that's got to be just absolutely terrifying. So in this he had gone to great links to plan first off, where he was going to place a body once he wound up killing his wife. And then I've been thinking about to Steve, and I'm wondering does he stop midstream throughout all of this, after he's gone through all these elaborate steps to facilitate this, and he's thinking, oh my gosh, now what am I going to tell everybody? How do I explain that that she's vanished at this point time? Oh, I've got it cancer, you know, And so that pops into his mind and this is the most expedient thing that he can do relative to this. But Dave, you know, once they started putting pressure on him, you know, I think that she died on January first, twenty twenty four, and they wind up within four days of recovering her remains. So he spilled all of the beans, all of the work that he had put into this. But you know that you talk about that it was you know, you think people think, well, what could have driven him to rage like this? Well, this was not a reactionary event, Dave. This was not a reactionary event because you think about hammer and you think, well, we got into a fight. As you had mentioned, you pick up the closest object, which we refer to as a weapon of convenience, and then you begin to attack somebody viciously. Because hammer attacks are beyond the pale. No, he had been thinking about this weeks in advance. He had time. This is the tough part. He had time. If you're going to kill somebody, you know, why is it I'm using the word why. What would be your motivation for doing it in such a brutal manner? Do you not have a.

Wepe you're planning it out?

Wepe you're planning it out?

If you're planning yeah, so you know. To me, this indicates a lot of anger. This is a blunt force trauma that he is exacting upon this woman when he beats her to death with this. Now, once you do this, what are you going to do with their body? And that's that's the odd thing about this. And I see this lots of times in what we refer to as a clandestine burial. By the way, I'm actually teaching a class this semester at Jacksonville State called clandestine burials, And this fits right in with the narrative that we see. You just never know what perpetrators are going to do with human remains. And I've seen this in my career as well. You know, Dave he this idea of cocooning a body. It's one of the big gifts for someone in forensics that a perpetrator can do. Because he took the aforementioned tarp that you'd mentioned and wrapped her body in it, and then in this trenched out area, he took a luggage carrier for a car and entombed her body in that and then pushed everything in on top of it to cover the body. Now I can tell you this when you show up at a clandestine burial site. One of the things you're looking for, as far as we have two things that we talk about. We talk about the topography and we talk about the taphonomy. And so the topography is essentially the lay of the land. You know, is it a flat space, does it rise? Does it fall? Then you have taphonomy, and that goes into this idea of the changes in the soil, the configuration of soil. Are you impacted by erosion, water? You know, So you have to have a mix of all of this, and then you analyze the scene. This is such a fresh dig that there's no way that you would have like and plus it's wintertime in Tennessee, by the way, we're talking about in January, so you're not going to have like little sprigs of grass growing up you're going to be looking at bear earth, what they refer to as recently turned earth, and it really, you know, it's one of these moments in time where you would if you could take this guy aside and look at him and say, does your mind work? You know, what's the deal with this? Why would you go to these links that you went to? And then you're going to roll over? Because you know Dave, he actually wound up rolling over on this case. He rolled over to the point where they were able to not only find her body, but this guy takes the weapon, which is a hammer, and places it into a dumpster, so the police are actually able to recover this weapon. And that we've heard the term smoking gun. This is a blood soaked hammer, if you will. It's going to have some element, some trace element on it, whether it's blood or hair. You're talking about multiple blunt force impacts to the skull, and it's the card's principle. Every time you take that hammer and you impact it onto the skull, you're talking about drawing away blood that's on the surface. After you've broken the skin with this massive laceration, You've got hair that is probably attached to the head of this hammer, because blood is so tacky and you're traumatizing the scalp to the point where you're literally pulling hair out. That I've even seen cases with blunt force trauma where you will have bits of tissue and I'm not talking about like brain, I'm just talking about skin that will attach itself to the surface of the weapon, and it can be any number of types of weapons. So he actually gifted the police with these evidence rich elements that he had, and he went so far as to preserve the body because not only is she in this plastic encasement that you would normally put luggage in and tied to the top of your car when you're heading down to Florida with your family, he's got her wrapped in a tarp. So any kind of trace forensic evidence, like a person to person contact, that's not going to dissipate. And she's been in the ground for such a very very short period of time that they're not going to have to fight a lot of decompositional changes with Jackie's body.

If you're planning yeah, so you know. To me, this indicates a lot of anger. This is a blunt force trauma that he is exacting upon this woman when he beats her to death with this. Now, once you do this, what are you going to do with their body? And that's that's the odd thing about this. And I see this lots of times in what we refer to as a clandestine burial. By the way, I'm actually teaching a class this semester at Jacksonville State called clandestine burials, And this fits right in with the narrative that we see. You just never know what perpetrators are going to do with human remains. And I've seen this in my career as well. You know, Dave he this idea of cocooning a body. It's one of the big gifts for someone in forensics that a perpetrator can do. Because he took the aforementioned tarp that you'd mentioned and wrapped her body in it, and then in this trenched out area, he took a luggage carrier for a car and entombed her body in that and then pushed everything in on top of it to cover the body. Now I can tell you this when you show up at a clandestine burial site. One of the things you're looking for, as far as we have two things that we talk about. We talk about the topography and we talk about the taphonomy. And so the topography is essentially the lay of the land. You know, is it a flat space, does it rise? Does it fall? Then you have taphonomy, and that goes into this idea of the changes in the soil, the configuration of soil. Are you impacted by erosion, water? You know, So you have to have a mix of all of this, and then you analyze the scene. This is such a fresh dig that there's no way that you would have like and plus it's wintertime in Tennessee, by the way, we're talking about in January, so you're not going to have like little sprigs of grass growing up you're going to be looking at bear earth, what they refer to as recently turned earth, and it really, you know, it's one of these moments in time where you would if you could take this guy aside and look at him and say, does your mind work? You know, what's the deal with this? Why would you go to these links that you went to? And then you're going to roll over? Because you know Dave, he actually wound up rolling over on this case. He rolled over to the point where they were able to not only find her body, but this guy takes the weapon, which is a hammer, and places it into a dumpster, so the police are actually able to recover this weapon. And that we've heard the term smoking gun. This is a blood soaked hammer, if you will. It's going to have some element, some trace element on it, whether it's blood or hair. You're talking about multiple blunt force impacts to the skull, and it's the card's principle. Every time you take that hammer and you impact it onto the skull, you're talking about drawing away blood that's on the surface. After you've broken the skin with this massive laceration, You've got hair that is probably attached to the head of this hammer, because blood is so tacky and you're traumatizing the scalp to the point where you're literally pulling hair out. That I've even seen cases with blunt force trauma where you will have bits of tissue and I'm not talking about like brain, I'm just talking about skin that will attach itself to the surface of the weapon, and it can be any number of types of weapons. So he actually gifted the police with these evidence rich elements that he had, and he went so far as to preserve the body because not only is she in this plastic encasement that you would normally put luggage in and tied to the top of your car when you're heading down to Florida with your family, he's got her wrapped in a tarp. So any kind of trace forensic evidence, like a person to person contact, that's not going to dissipate. And she's been in the ground for such a very very short period of time that they're not going to have to fight a lot of decompositional changes with Jackie's body.

Dave, and I did want to ask you about that, Joe, want to play one thing out very quickly. On top of everything you just outlined investigators found a note, a handwritten note that Joe had written down about his to do list. He actually had written down items that he needed to pick up, including a hammer and a tarp. He wrote this down before again going back to premeditation. It wasn't just all of a sudden boom, it was I need these items. He also planned on items of hers that he was going to sell very quickly too. For whatever reason, I don't know, but I wanted to ask you, Joe, because we know according to Joe Glenn, he killed her on January first, he buried her the next day. With how much deterioration would occur in her body in that period of time of less than twenty four hours at her age? And by the way, does age have anything to do with how quickly a body breaks down?

Dave, and I did want to ask you about that, Joe, want to play one thing out very quickly. On top of everything you just outlined investigators found a note, a handwritten note that Joe had written down about his to do list. He actually had written down items that he needed to pick up, including a hammer and a tarp. He wrote this down before again going back to premeditation. It wasn't just all of a sudden boom, it was I need these items. He also planned on items of hers that he was going to sell very quickly too. For whatever reason, I don't know, but I wanted to ask you, Joe, because we know according to Joe Glenn, he killed her on January first, he buried her the next day. With how much deterioration would occur in her body in that period of time of less than twenty four hours at her age? And by the way, does age have anything to do with how quickly a body breaks down?

No, it really does. That's an excellent question. I don't think of ever had anybody ask me that question, But yeah, it is. It is fascinating when you think about it. You would think that that perhaps your chronological age might have some kind of impact on the progression of decomposition a body. It really doesn't. Uh. Now, if you're if you're more robust, muscular with muscularly that might have some impact relative to the presentation of something like Roger Mortis. Okay, but when we're you know, and we just did an episode recently they where we talked about decompositional proceeds in a micro sense, and but we're talking about now, we're talking about macro where where it's a broader or broader scope where you're looking for deterioration in a body. You're not going to see a lot of that at all with her body at this point in time. And here's another piece to this, which I think is significant, because not only she been concooned and encased, she's been she's in a subterranean state where she's buried. And you've got a coolness that's set in. Remember, I mean, obviously Tennessee doesn't. It's not like permafrost or something that you would see in northern Minnesota or in Alaska or Canada. But you're talking about soil temperature. The ground temperature is very cool as well. So that's going to aid in the preservation of the remains. You're not going to see a lot of decay in the body. What I'm fascinated by, I think is what are they going to find at the scene as far as elements that can be tied back directly to this husband. Are there any kind of instruments that he may have used at the scene that that facility helped him facilitate finishing up this area that he's dug out. Here's one more thing that I don't know if think about this or not. You're talking about plastic here. You're talking about a plastic covering and this travel case. Guess what I'd like to know how long he's owned this thing, because if this is a recent purchase, you might find other people's fingerprints on this. They're not going to be deteriorated, particularly on the interier. If he's grabbing the interior to lid and like lowering it down, this is probably going to be It might be slightly textured, but it might be a non poor surface. You would be able to recover fingerprints from the underside of this carrier. And in addition to this, this is a plastic tarp. You could actually take that tarp and fume it with like super glue perhaps, and you would be able to determine if in fact this was something that he had had his hand on.

No, it really does. That's an excellent question. I don't think of ever had anybody ask me that question, But yeah, it is. It is fascinating when you think about it. You would think that that perhaps your chronological age might have some kind of impact on the progression of decomposition a body. It really doesn't. Uh. Now, if you're if you're more robust, muscular with muscularly that might have some impact relative to the presentation of something like Roger Mortis. Okay, but when we're you know, and we just did an episode recently they where we talked about decompositional proceeds in a micro sense, and but we're talking about now, we're talking about macro where where it's a broader or broader scope where you're looking for deterioration in a body. You're not going to see a lot of that at all with her body at this point in time. And here's another piece to this, which I think is significant, because not only she been concooned and encased, she's been she's in a subterranean state where she's buried. And you've got a coolness that's set in. Remember, I mean, obviously Tennessee doesn't. It's not like permafrost or something that you would see in northern Minnesota or in Alaska or Canada. But you're talking about soil temperature. The ground temperature is very cool as well. So that's going to aid in the preservation of the remains. You're not going to see a lot of decay in the body. What I'm fascinated by, I think is what are they going to find at the scene as far as elements that can be tied back directly to this husband. Are there any kind of instruments that he may have used at the scene that that facility helped him facilitate finishing up this area that he's dug out. Here's one more thing that I don't know if think about this or not. You're talking about plastic here. You're talking about a plastic covering and this travel case. Guess what I'd like to know how long he's owned this thing, because if this is a recent purchase, you might find other people's fingerprints on this. They're not going to be deteriorated, particularly on the interier. If he's grabbing the interior to lid and like lowering it down, this is probably going to be It might be slightly textured, but it might be a non poor surface. You would be able to recover fingerprints from the underside of this carrier. And in addition to this, this is a plastic tarp. You could actually take that tarp and fume it with like super glue perhaps, and you would be able to determine if in fact this was something that he had had his hand on.

And oddly enough, a lot of the forensic stuff won't even come into play because Joe Glenn actually surprised us.

And oddly enough, a lot of the forensic stuff won't even come into play because Joe Glenn actually surprised us.

Yeah, you know, Joe Glenn actually admitted to killing his wife, beating her to death with a hammer, and then taking her body and wrapping it, placing it into this car carrier, and then placing the entirety of all of those elements into a pre dug hole. I think that we can conclude that Glenn knew what he was looking at. He's looking at the police having this huge collection of evidence that is going to point directly at him. But I can tell you this. On Wednesday, August the twenty eighth, Joseph Glenn pled guilty to the charge of first degree murder and he has now been sentenced to life. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is bodybags

Yeah, you know, Joe Glenn actually admitted to killing his wife, beating her to death with a hammer, and then taking her body and wrapping it, placing it into this car carrier, and then placing the entirety of all of those elements into a pre dug hole. I think that we can conclude that Glenn knew what he was looking at. He's looking at the police having this huge collection of evidence that is going to point directly at him. But I can tell you this. On Wednesday, August the twenty eighth, Joseph Glenn pled guilty to the charge of first degree murder and he has now been sentenced to life. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is bodybags