Am I excited about the dimmer and not particularly. The time for protest is over. It's time for leadership and that is what this government provides. In every town and village in this country. Labor will be there giving a message of real hope where this government offers nothing. People have a very clear choice. If they want Brexit, they can vote for Labor or the Conservatives of the Brexit Party, and if they want to stop Brexit, they need to vote for the Liberal dem Crants. Hello, you're listening to Bloomberg Westminster, your daily guide to British politics. I'm Sebastian Salek and good afternoon. I'm Roger Hearing. And what I think the name of the game today is nationalization. Absolutely, Labor seizing the agenda with this whopper of a pledge to nationalized part of BT. They want to do that so they can offer every home and business free high speed broadband by I should say that's full fiber broadband to use the technical term. The Conservatives say that the proposal is a fantasy which would cost the taxpayers billions, And we heard from the Nelighbor Chancellor John McDonald. He says that's set up a firm called British Broadband that will be paid for by government bonds swapped for the existing shares. Parliament in the normal way with public ownership will determine the price. Now there we are nationalization. Now that is a line that I didn't think to hear in British politics. I mean not really since the seventies have been talking about that sort of thing, not in any way that was ever likely to actually happen. So it's really quite a fascinating move. We're joining us now is Bloomberg's Brexit and media reporter Joe Mays and our very own Brexit editor Ed Evans also in the studio. Joe, let me come to you first on this because it is rather fascinating. What is the mechanism? How would it work? They go to it's a particularly unit of BT that would be simply taken away from its current sholder. Yes, as you had John McDonald saying they would give government bonds in exchange for the shares of beating all the value that would be ascribed to open each and then as you say, it would become something run by labor. They were going to call it British Broadband and that would be the enterprise that would be responsible for this broadband rollout across the country, crucially, as Jeremy Corbyn just said, in rural areas for example, where there isn't so much of an incentive at the moment for BT to do that because commercially not viable to stick poles up in hard to get to places. And yeah, that that that would be the mechanism. So what about the likes of Virgin Media talk to or called the existing providers. Are they then redundant or do they have a role to play in this. That's a very good question, and it's unclear. It's unclear whether these other providers of broadband which are currently competing with BT trying to roll out their own networks, whether they would also be nationalized or whether LABEL take complete control of everything. That's unknown, and that's having the impact in the market today in that people are putting their plans on hold for those rollouts because they don't know whether labor could come along and nationalize them too. So until there's clarity on that, we're going to see a bit of paralysis there. And also there's a bit of a financial issue on this. To put it mildly, how are they going to pay off the sholders. We had talk about government bonds, but how would that work? Again a good question as in we haven't seen such national nationalizations like this for a long time. So John McDonald was saying Parliament would set the value. So the response from bt shareholders this morning was not a good one. Clear there's a fear that they wouldn't necessarily get fully compensated for this, and so that that's problem at But John McDonald was saying that they would have higher taxes on multinational firms that they specifically named Facebook and Google and those funds would help cover the maintenance costs of this network going forward. To be a mixture of this government bonds plus extra taxation on companies potentially, which would they say fund this going forward? And Edward Labor says this is going to cost twenty billion pounds, but there's been some dispute around that exact amount, the bt CEO saying it would be closer to a hundred billion. Well that's the question is how how much is it going to cost to put fiber into every home in the UK. Just to put in perspective, Labor says that it's cost it will spend two d and thirty million pounds a year on this project. Open Reacher is already spending two billion pounds a year on CAPEX just to get to where we are at the moment today. It's hard to reconcile those two numbers. And the problem of course, once you have an industry nationalized, you're then at the whim of the treasury in terms of what funding, what investment you can put in. And there the record any nationalized industry in this country is not so so so attractive. The other thing, I guess, and in all this is time. Because they talked about by twenty thirty, that's quite a long way off in terms of actually completing all this. It is, but it's an enormous project to complete. And then you're talking you're dragging cable across into rural areas. I mean McDonald's striking about today. This is to every part of the UK. So there's gonna bits of Scotland in the far North miles away from anywhere that are going going to get this even where you are even to even to rural Kent. You know, one day in Baby we can live in Hope. But this, that is, that is an enormous project and in that sort of time for ten years, isn't such a isn't such a long time? I think for that that kind of project. I think thing to add is that currently most houses have super fast broad bound, which is different from full fiber because super fast involves a fire optic cable which is very quick going to a cabinet in your street, and then a copper wire from the cabinet to your home. And it's that final part, that kind of the copper wire element which create which adds slowness. So to get full fiber, you mean you get your fire as a cable to the home, not to the cabinet in the streets. So that is that's an intensive exercise. You have to dig up a lot of roads to make sure you get that access to the home. So that's what I'd say, it's it's it's a massive projects like food than technology. They're getting full fiber and definitely good for your mental health. Imagine if you can get get get it through there. So in practical terms, is this is this something that the industry can do? I mean just literally can it be done in the time frame? Does the physical and technologic capability there to do? I think the time frame is ambitious, but I think that the efforts that are currently going on are progressing fairly well. The problem is that the UK is very far behind. Are the European countries on this issue almost very surprising least so so. Portugal, for example, has an astounding rate of connection with full five. But any wonder why isn't the UK? Why have we fallen so far behind? I think a big problem is that for a company like BT, they've had a big pension deficit, for example, and they've been trying to play this game of where do we invest Do we cover ourselves on our pension. If we do that, we can invest less in our in our in our capital network, the fiber network. They've investing in sports rights as well. So BT has been playing this game over the last few years of juggling things around. I think labor come out and said we've had enough of this and we're just going to make a full priority that we're gonna invest in the network. And if you look at these issues separately, it seems like it could be quite a popular policy because people want good internet, people want fast internet. I know I'm a completely mess when my mind goes down and people also are in favor generally of nationalization. It tends to be something that polls quite well. Do those two work together in this instance it certainly looks like it. And also to point out rural areas, you know, the lack of broadbead is a big issue that keeps coming up with voters and that again puts pressure on Boris Johnson. As Joe said, you know, this is something where BT has really lagged behind other European countries on internationally. That there's a there's an open goal here and that's what you've seen labor exploit this morning. But is there an issue of EU lore as well in all this, because I mean, are we are they allowed to assuming will you remain in the which is obviously rather bigger. Does the policy mean that labor is now backing Brexit? Well, there are two things that I mean, One, can they nationalize the business under EU? Or it appears yes they can do that. You can have a nationalized industry under EU competitionals question then is can they subsidize it and what rules there are about subsidizing it? And there again it's unclear certainly are there's announcement about Island today about the extending a subsidy to its broadband rollout, and that that being cleared by the EU, so that may not be quite as big an obstacle. Dare I say as some people have suggested, and Edward runs through what the Tories are doing about broadband, because this is a five billion pound that was previously announced. It wasn't today, it was some while ago, and it's not quite looking at fiber. It's a mixture of things, right, Joe is probably more experting this than well. I think the Tory approach has been to work in collaboration with industries, so to say we will we will help and support the likes of Libsy, Globals, Virgin Media, City Fiber will be in a supportive role, but it will be for the private sector to do most of the heavy lifting with government facilitators. So that's the difference I think between the labor approach and but the Conservatives are pretty ambitious as well, and their timeframe they're saying five they wanted to achieve this, which again is seen as very quick. But you know, the Tories want to paint themselves as you're digitally ambitious, and that's why they put that line out. So let's walk this around in terms of the of the whole word nationalization, because it is a huge change. You're going from a point which you and I probably remember, I'm not sure about whether the other two would in the eighties when things were privatized gas, BT of course, and many others. And now this is a turnaround at least in con said, and we know that the labor wants to to nationalize the railways and assorted others along the way. Is this actually do you think quantum leap if one can use that horrible word too, in terms of the way the political atmosphere is. It's shown how Corbin has changed the weather in that spetch certainly, I mean, as you say, he's already talked about utilities, railways and the rest of this is an extension of that, and it's but it's something I think earlier it was back in July, I think laborhood ruled out or appeared to have ruled out, but now are backing. So it seems that this is something that this is something that they are going further on. Does it what it does show you? This is how I mean, this is an election where both parties are committed to big increases in spending over a period of time. This is not about an election thought over the size of the state, big state versus small state. It's about big state and bigger state and the role of the state in providing those services versus the private sector. And what we've seen today is Corbin as parton Corbin advocating this is up only the public sector can do this in a way that's efficient, and Johnson going for still the private sector argument. I think an interesting dynamic at this election is that those nationalization arguments are seemingly quite compelling too young people, because young people have never lived under nationalized industries, even violent No I haven't. So when these arguments are made about how much more efficient it would be, how much cheaper would be, I think those arguments resonate with certain people who may not have the lived experience of older people who might remember the days when you'd be queuing forever for a BT you know, service or whatever. I mean, you have to be very old to remember having to wait months to get a phone line from the then the g p O. Yeah, that's true, that's true. But there's another interesting thing which I could pick up on this. It seems if you look at the Conservatives are doing. They're talking about reviving the high street, trying to get railways back up in regional areas, Labor talking about bringing broadback. It looks like new economy versus old economy. Is that value way of looking at it? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if the Conservatives came out with their own digital, big announcement in the in the days to come, I think. But I agree that there was something of an open goal here which Corbyn has kind of smashed the ball back into the nest of and I wouldn't be surprised if this issue dominates the coverage and the media for days to come. And that's a big win for them in this campaign because Johnson set this up as the Brexit campaign, but almost as like the last election labor of showing that we will announce whatever we want and we will dominate the agenda if if it's if it's resonating and it is worrying for the Conservatives. So a similar player boit then to twenties seventeen, Thank you so much Blue Brexit and media reported Joe May's and our Brexit editor Edward Evans. So Roger, what have we got that's making news in the political world. Were something that caught my eye actually was an item and the Times we were talking about in the other part of the program, in fact, Corbin's radical broadband plan. That's the headline in fact on the piece of The Times, and it says it would reverse Thatcher's legacy. Patrick Hosking, the Financial editor, says Labor's plans to nationalize Bunriach would partly reverse one of the landmark moments of the Thatcher era, the privatization of British Telecom. We talked about, Harold McMillan. We're digging into history there. I'm learning a lot personally. I'm sure there's nothing that Jeremy Corbyn were like more than to overturn the legacy of Margaret Thatcher. Let's all went the Lib dens as well. They've got a policy out as well today. It's around climate. They're pledging a hundred billion pounds to tackle the effects of climate change and protecting the environment, and the Deputy Leader, Sad Davies expected to say that the five year investment is going to jump start efforts to combat the climate emergency. It's gonna be funded through borrowing and tax changes, but largely through borrowing. So we are talking about more debt here. And this comes, of course as you have the flooding in Yorkshire and Venice as well. If you haven't seen pictures of that, check it out. It's in a right state. And the Daily Express has got a piece by Frederick Forsyth, the author. He's written also or signed up to the letter that appeared I think today in the Guardian urging people not to devote labor a large number of figures from the culture and and writing. But he says he's worried about the Brexit Party still because Nigel Ferrarge is still standing a number of candidates. Of course many people think against Labor. In effect, what they'll do is split the Tories or split the Brexit vote, I guess. And Frederick forsythe says most of us prefer simplicity to complexity, and the good news is in our present election campaign the issues are refreshingly simple. At the end, he says, so some national hero is leading to give the wide boy a large bung, a busty blonde and a villa in Cyprus. This is the way he writes, and persuade his cohorts, referring to nancial carrot farage, to return to the party they abandoned for a dream of perfection. In other words, return to reality. What's a large bung? I don't know. It depends who you are. I suspect it's a bribe. Oh right, okay, fair enough, got it. That is a weird way of writing. Frankly, okay, So okay, I like this story. Here we go talk about being parachuted into a constituency. Ed Punctured has been announced as the Brexit part of his candidate for Tyneside, but the Newcastle Chronical reports that he lives in Australia. They say that he claims he's got the right to represent Timouth because he has links to the North Sea and indeed he's done some work there in the past. But he's worked as a filmmaker in Australia for the last few decades. So really gonna be spending a lot of money on air fair to come in and campaign in Timouth. The North Sea is pretty big and in fact I think I think probably Paul that's from your area, isn't it pretty much? Because like we can introduce Paul Swinney, who's director of policy and Research at the Center for Cities, has joined us here in the studio because one of the issues today, of course, is what is going to be put into the infrastructure. We've certainly heard something from Labor about broad Bend, but Prime Minister Boris Johnson is also making a picture voters in overlooked towns, as he called us on, promising to revive high streets through tax breaks for local businesses and reopened provincial railway lines. So Paul, let me ask you about that. First of all, I mean, revitalizing the high street has been a long heralded plan on on all sides. What do you think of what Boris Johnson says, Well, business for it. I think it's the big zeitgeist in this discussion. It get put getting pull up all the time that taxes are too high and if all you aquid taxes on for these sort of poor independent businesses and these struggling high streets, everything will be all right. But it's not really dealing with the fundamental problem that these places face in that they haven't got many people walking past the doors. They just aren't many customers walking literally past the front door of those shops or restaurants or cafes then for those private prenurs to sell to and so cutting business way, which is something that I think a number of the parties have suggested over the last couple of years, is unlikely to change that fundamental challenge that these places face. We've got to be trying to get more people into into those those high streets if we want to see the fortunes of those areas turn around. So what's causing that? Is it the hangover of austerity? Is it the Amazon effect? What's going on? I think it's broader than that. You know, the first or the big point to make from this is that even though it makes good headlines that if toys are goes bust or Mothercare goes bust, that you know, it's all of the papers and the impression is that the high street is dying, the reality is the high street isn't dying everywhere, and in some places actually doing pretty well. So if you were to go to the center of Manchester or the center of Leeds or the center of it and do what you would find, perhaps even despite the weather a deal, there'll be a lot of people walking around. Um and crucially part of that will be a lot of people in suits as well. And so what we're seeing here is that these high streets are sitting within strong city center economies that are putting many people in hundreds of thousands, well so tens of thousands in many cases, hundred thousand in Manchester's case. Um, those people are coming in the morning there from hours of nine to five at least. There might be going out at lunchtime, that might be going out after work to the bars and restaurants. There might even be scribed in the afternoon. You see it quietly, and that's then creating this market that you know, private school when I've got some people are sell to here. So so Paul, you said that, you said that what the plans, you're not that impressed by the plans that are coming through. And what you said is that the key is is business rates. It's it's it's the way that the businesses that the challenges they face in terms of what they have to play. What do you want to see from the parties? What's the list? The big thing for us is trying to under us is focusing on the city center economy of the place that I've got struggling high streets. So it's not just on the very narrow element of or this periadi of shops is not doing very well, so let's do some tax cuts and some some bunting. It's actually saying why are businesses not coming to invest in these places? And I'm not talking retail business I'm talking office based businesses. So it's it's software development, it's finance, it's law, it's all the other types of businesses you see in successful there's what do you do? Partly says okay, this is the list. Manifestos are coming out, I think this weekend most of them. What should they have on that? Yes, So the first thing is a focus on skills. So if you're a high school business looking to stick your pins somewhere in the map of the UK, you need the skilled work you start going to have an impact on your bottom line. And we tend to have very little discussion about that because it's quite hard and the policies on on clear in terms of what it is you would actually do. But that's gotta be the number one focus. The second thing we would have is um we would create a city center productivity fund. Now, not many people actually know it even the number of chancellors have announced a number of times, is that there is a thirty seven billion pounds National Productivity Infrastructure Fund available. Not all that money has been allocated. What we would say from that is they take five billion pounds of that allocated the city center productivity funds and places and have to bid in with credible plans, credible long term plans. But how they want to try and make their city centers more attractive places to do business and how would they would then use the money from the funds to help do that? So what do you make of the lib Dem policy around the skills wanted to give people money throughout their life to keep retraining. I think these are interesting ideas. Um the there's an issue about skills that people have got today or haven't as the case maybe, and that's a particular challenge in the in the North of England that the idea of um of trying to continue updear people skills is important too. You know, we're seeing you ever change every faster change in the world of work. People need a different array of skills to be able to adapt as the types of jobs available adapt as well. So I think having the conversation in the in the national arena about things like skills, wallet or or other ideas that similar ideas have been suggested by other parties, and I think is an important part of it. But will of necessity training is going to be doesn't expense long term, it's going to take a while to get there. But like tomorrow after Christmas, what is it that you would need to give firms or firms would need to have to keep themselves going to keep the city going. Well, the issue is that this is a long term problem. You know, it's something that is being going on um for you know, third or four years, perhaps even a hundred years and some of the research that that we've been doing, so there isn't a short term fixed unfortunately. Um, there are some things around the margins you might be able to do in terms of well how would you try and um, if there's a couple of derelict buildings, how do you try and make them look a little bit smarter? Can you get some short term use in those buildings? So there's activity going on as well, But fundamentally we have to understand why the businesses and look at where they do and why is that they're therefore not locating in certain places and try and change that. But if we're talking about an issue that has been thirty or forty years in the making, unfortunately that just isn't that's your term fixed. It's got to be a very focused response, but focused on long term response to what is a wide ranging and long term decline that we've seen in some places. And what about the level which this happens. We had Andy Burnham on the other day, they now they may have greater Manchester talking about his manifesto for the North that he's supporting and how he wants cities in the North to be able to take more power and do more to to to reskill their their workers as one example. Do you think that's something that's workable surely in the I mean the North for a lot of big cities that perhaps aren't achieving their potential for various reasons. Absolutely. I think Manchester has um always been very good in terms of negotiating with government over the last of six or seven years in terms of getting a devolution deal in place. And now, as you see, I've got Andy Burnham in place, who's got quite a lot of powers relative to other parts of the u K. And that's the thing that the I think all parties should be setting up their pictures and their manifesto say well, how are we going to devolve more powers to the place that haven't got those devolution deals at the moment. What is interesting about that is that while Manchester got those powers, powers still aren't as um as wide arranging as London, a more successful city's locally why that's the case, but then even in London, London's context and the global economy, actually London has very few powers as well. You know, if you would have got to America, for example, city mayors, they've got lords more powers and what London's got. So we want to see broader levels of devolution, but actually more powers given to those places that have got a devolution deal in place. Paul, what about communication, because that's what a lot of people talk about, the ability to be able to go quickly between places. And of course that brings us to HS two, which is a huge thing, and we know that there's been a government sponsored review of it all they come up and said, well, actually something it's an't good but actually overall idea should go ahead. It's can be vastly expensive. Would it help with what you're talking about? I think it comes down to again, what is it that we're trying to achieve from from something like HS two or HS three. Now, I think with HS to the the message seems to be that the west course of Main nine is a capacity and by putting HS too in place actually leaves a capacity and allows people to move around. That's a good thing. Whether it's good enough given the costs of the project now is something that needs to be assessed. But if we then look at something like Northern Powerhouse Real or HS three, is it it gets also no one has which is this idea of better linking cities in the north that is very much sold on the basis that well, people would be at the commute now and they live on the east side of of Leeds and going community into Manchester City Center. But when much more skeptical about that. I think if you look at them the patterns of traveling in other similar places like the Ryan rural area of Germany and the Rancho area of Holland, the two areas that were just used to justify the policy, they've got very productive or very productive economies and very good rail ways. What we find is that people tend to live and work in the same place. You know, they don't want to travel long distances and commuting is a cost. The reason why people commute so far into London is because wages are high and house prices are high. You know, in a place like around Leeds and Manchester, wages are improving, but they're nowhere near as high as what they are in London. And actually, do you know what, house prices aren't that expensive either. You're not forced out, so why would you be increasing the length of your commute. Bloomberg Westminster listen week days at noon on d a B digital radio in London.

Am I excited about the dimmer and not particularly. The time for protest is over. It's time for leadership and that is what this government provides. In every town and village in this country. Labor will be there giving a message of real hope where this government offers nothing. People have a very clear choice. If they want Brexit, they can vote for Labor or the Conservatives of the Brexit Party, and if they want to stop Brexit, they need to vote for the Liberal dem Crants. Hello, you're listening to Bloomberg Westminster, your daily guide to British politics. I'm Sebastian Salek and good afternoon. I'm Roger Hearing. And what I think the name of the game today is nationalization. Absolutely, Labor seizing the agenda with this whopper of a pledge to nationalized part of BT. They want to do that so they can offer every home and business free high speed broadband by I should say that's full fiber broadband to use the technical term. The Conservatives say that the proposal is a fantasy which would cost the taxpayers billions, And we heard from the Nelighbor Chancellor John McDonald. He says that's set up a firm called British Broadband that will be paid for by government bonds swapped for the existing shares. Parliament in the normal way with public ownership will determine the price. Now there we are nationalization. Now that is a line that I didn't think to hear in British politics. I mean not really since the seventies have been talking about that sort of thing, not in any way that was ever likely to actually happen. So it's really quite a fascinating move. We're joining us now is Bloomberg's Brexit and media reporter Joe Mays and our very own Brexit editor Ed Evans also in the studio. Joe, let me come to you first on this because it is rather fascinating. What is the mechanism? How would it work? They go to it's a particularly unit of BT that would be simply taken away from its current sholder. Yes, as you had John McDonald saying they would give government bonds in exchange for the shares of beating all the value that would be ascribed to open each and then as you say, it would become something run by labor. They were going to call it British Broadband and that would be the enterprise that would be responsible for this broadband rollout across the country, crucially, as Jeremy Corbyn just said, in rural areas for example, where there isn't so much of an incentive at the moment for BT to do that because commercially not viable to stick poles up in hard to get to places. And yeah, that that that would be the mechanism. So what about the likes of Virgin Media talk to or called the existing providers. Are they then redundant or do they have a role to play in this. That's a very good question, and it's unclear. It's unclear whether these other providers of broadband which are currently competing with BT trying to roll out their own networks, whether they would also be nationalized or whether LABEL take complete control of everything. That's unknown, and that's having the impact in the market today in that people are putting their plans on hold for those rollouts because they don't know whether labor could come along and nationalize them too. So until there's clarity on that, we're going to see a bit of paralysis there. And also there's a bit of a financial issue on this. To put it mildly, how are they going to pay off the sholders. We had talk about government bonds, but how would that work? Again a good question as in we haven't seen such national nationalizations like this for a long time. So John McDonald was saying Parliament would set the value. So the response from bt shareholders this morning was not a good one. Clear there's a fear that they wouldn't necessarily get fully compensated for this, and so that that's problem at But John McDonald was saying that they would have higher taxes on multinational firms that they specifically named Facebook and Google and those funds would help cover the maintenance costs of this network going forward. To be a mixture of this government bonds plus extra taxation on companies potentially, which would they say fund this going forward? And Edward Labor says this is going to cost twenty billion pounds, but there's been some dispute around that exact amount, the bt CEO saying it would be closer to a hundred billion. Well that's the question is how how much is it going to cost to put fiber into every home in the UK. Just to put in perspective, Labor says that it's cost it will spend two d and thirty million pounds a year on this project. Open Reacher is already spending two billion pounds a year on CAPEX just to get to where we are at the moment today. It's hard to reconcile those two numbers. And the problem of course, once you have an industry nationalized, you're then at the whim of the treasury in terms of what funding, what investment you can put in. And there the record any nationalized industry in this country is not so so so attractive. The other thing, I guess, and in all this is time. Because they talked about by twenty thirty, that's quite a long way off in terms of actually completing all this. It is, but it's an enormous project to complete. And then you're talking you're dragging cable across into rural areas. I mean McDonald's striking about today. This is to every part of the UK. So there's gonna bits of Scotland in the far North miles away from anywhere that are going going to get this even where you are even to even to rural Kent. You know, one day in Baby we can live in Hope. But this, that is, that is an enormous project and in that sort of time for ten years, isn't such a isn't such a long time? I think for that that kind of project. I think thing to add is that currently most houses have super fast broad bound, which is different from full fiber because super fast involves a fire optic cable which is very quick going to a cabinet in your street, and then a copper wire from the cabinet to your home. And it's that final part, that kind of the copper wire element which create which adds slowness. So to get full fiber, you mean you get your fire as a cable to the home, not to the cabinet in the streets. So that is that's an intensive exercise. You have to dig up a lot of roads to make sure you get that access to the home. So that's what I'd say, it's it's it's a massive projects like food than technology. They're getting full fiber and definitely good for your mental health. Imagine if you can get get get it through there. So in practical terms, is this is this something that the industry can do? I mean just literally can it be done in the time frame? Does the physical and technologic capability there to do? I think the time frame is ambitious, but I think that the efforts that are currently going on are progressing fairly well. The problem is that the UK is very far behind. Are the European countries on this issue almost very surprising least so so. Portugal, for example, has an astounding rate of connection with full five. But any wonder why isn't the UK? Why have we fallen so far behind? I think a big problem is that for a company like BT, they've had a big pension deficit, for example, and they've been trying to play this game of where do we invest Do we cover ourselves on our pension. If we do that, we can invest less in our in our in our capital network, the fiber network. They've investing in sports rights as well. So BT has been playing this game over the last few years of juggling things around. I think labor come out and said we've had enough of this and we're just going to make a full priority that we're gonna invest in the network. And if you look at these issues separately, it seems like it could be quite a popular policy because people want good internet, people want fast internet. I know I'm a completely mess when my mind goes down and people also are in favor generally of nationalization. It tends to be something that polls quite well. Do those two work together in this instance it certainly looks like it. And also to point out rural areas, you know, the lack of broadbead is a big issue that keeps coming up with voters and that again puts pressure on Boris Johnson. As Joe said, you know, this is something where BT has really lagged behind other European countries on internationally. That there's a there's an open goal here and that's what you've seen labor exploit this morning. But is there an issue of EU lore as well in all this, because I mean, are we are they allowed to assuming will you remain in the which is obviously rather bigger. Does the policy mean that labor is now backing Brexit? Well, there are two things that I mean, One, can they nationalize the business under EU? Or it appears yes they can do that. You can have a nationalized industry under EU competitionals question then is can they subsidize it and what rules there are about subsidizing it? And there again it's unclear certainly are there's announcement about Island today about the extending a subsidy to its broadband rollout, and that that being cleared by the EU, so that may not be quite as big an obstacle. Dare I say as some people have suggested, and Edward runs through what the Tories are doing about broadband, because this is a five billion pound that was previously announced. It wasn't today, it was some while ago, and it's not quite looking at fiber. It's a mixture of things, right, Joe is probably more experting this than well. I think the Tory approach has been to work in collaboration with industries, so to say we will we will help and support the likes of Libsy, Globals, Virgin Media, City Fiber will be in a supportive role, but it will be for the private sector to do most of the heavy lifting with government facilitators. So that's the difference I think between the labor approach and but the Conservatives are pretty ambitious as well, and their timeframe they're saying five they wanted to achieve this, which again is seen as very quick. But you know, the Tories want to paint themselves as you're digitally ambitious, and that's why they put that line out. So let's walk this around in terms of the of the whole word nationalization, because it is a huge change. You're going from a point which you and I probably remember, I'm not sure about whether the other two would in the eighties when things were privatized gas, BT of course, and many others. And now this is a turnaround at least in con said, and we know that the labor wants to to nationalize the railways and assorted others along the way. Is this actually do you think quantum leap if one can use that horrible word too, in terms of the way the political atmosphere is. It's shown how Corbin has changed the weather in that spetch certainly, I mean, as you say, he's already talked about utilities, railways and the rest of this is an extension of that, and it's but it's something I think earlier it was back in July, I think laborhood ruled out or appeared to have ruled out, but now are backing. So it seems that this is something that this is something that they are going further on. Does it what it does show you? This is how I mean, this is an election where both parties are committed to big increases in spending over a period of time. This is not about an election thought over the size of the state, big state versus small state. It's about big state and bigger state and the role of the state in providing those services versus the private sector. And what we've seen today is Corbin as parton Corbin advocating this is up only the public sector can do this in a way that's efficient, and Johnson going for still the private sector argument. I think an interesting dynamic at this election is that those nationalization arguments are seemingly quite compelling too young people, because young people have never lived under nationalized industries, even violent No I haven't. So when these arguments are made about how much more efficient it would be, how much cheaper would be, I think those arguments resonate with certain people who may not have the lived experience of older people who might remember the days when you'd be queuing forever for a BT you know, service or whatever. I mean, you have to be very old to remember having to wait months to get a phone line from the then the g p O. Yeah, that's true, that's true. But there's another interesting thing which I could pick up on this. It seems if you look at the Conservatives are doing. They're talking about reviving the high street, trying to get railways back up in regional areas, Labor talking about bringing broadback. It looks like new economy versus old economy. Is that value way of looking at it? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if the Conservatives came out with their own digital, big announcement in the in the days to come, I think. But I agree that there was something of an open goal here which Corbyn has kind of smashed the ball back into the nest of and I wouldn't be surprised if this issue dominates the coverage and the media for days to come. And that's a big win for them in this campaign because Johnson set this up as the Brexit campaign, but almost as like the last election labor of showing that we will announce whatever we want and we will dominate the agenda if if it's if it's resonating and it is worrying for the Conservatives. So a similar player boit then to twenties seventeen, Thank you so much Blue Brexit and media reported Joe May's and our Brexit editor Edward Evans. So Roger, what have we got that's making news in the political world. Were something that caught my eye actually was an item and the Times we were talking about in the other part of the program, in fact, Corbin's radical broadband plan. That's the headline in fact on the piece of The Times, and it says it would reverse Thatcher's legacy. Patrick Hosking, the Financial editor, says Labor's plans to nationalize Bunriach would partly reverse one of the landmark moments of the Thatcher era, the privatization of British Telecom. We talked about, Harold McMillan. We're digging into history there. I'm learning a lot personally. I'm sure there's nothing that Jeremy Corbyn were like more than to overturn the legacy of Margaret Thatcher. Let's all went the Lib dens as well. They've got a policy out as well today. It's around climate. They're pledging a hundred billion pounds to tackle the effects of climate change and protecting the environment, and the Deputy Leader, Sad Davies expected to say that the five year investment is going to jump start efforts to combat the climate emergency. It's gonna be funded through borrowing and tax changes, but largely through borrowing. So we are talking about more debt here. And this comes, of course as you have the flooding in Yorkshire and Venice as well. If you haven't seen pictures of that, check it out. It's in a right state. And the Daily Express has got a piece by Frederick Forsyth, the author. He's written also or signed up to the letter that appeared I think today in the Guardian urging people not to devote labor a large number of figures from the culture and and writing. But he says he's worried about the Brexit Party still because Nigel Ferrarge is still standing a number of candidates. Of course many people think against Labor. In effect, what they'll do is split the Tories or split the Brexit vote, I guess. And Frederick forsythe says most of us prefer simplicity to complexity, and the good news is in our present election campaign the issues are refreshingly simple. At the end, he says, so some national hero is leading to give the wide boy a large bung, a busty blonde and a villa in Cyprus. This is the way he writes, and persuade his cohorts, referring to nancial carrot farage, to return to the party they abandoned for a dream of perfection. In other words, return to reality. What's a large bung? I don't know. It depends who you are. I suspect it's a bribe. Oh right, okay, fair enough, got it. That is a weird way of writing. Frankly, okay, So okay, I like this story. Here we go talk about being parachuted into a constituency. Ed Punctured has been announced as the Brexit part of his candidate for Tyneside, but the Newcastle Chronical reports that he lives in Australia. They say that he claims he's got the right to represent Timouth because he has links to the North Sea and indeed he's done some work there in the past. But he's worked as a filmmaker in Australia for the last few decades. So really gonna be spending a lot of money on air fair to come in and campaign in Timouth. The North Sea is pretty big and in fact I think I think probably Paul that's from your area, isn't it pretty much? Because like we can introduce Paul Swinney, who's director of policy and Research at the Center for Cities, has joined us here in the studio because one of the issues today, of course, is what is going to be put into the infrastructure. We've certainly heard something from Labor about broad Bend, but Prime Minister Boris Johnson is also making a picture voters in overlooked towns, as he called us on, promising to revive high streets through tax breaks for local businesses and reopened provincial railway lines. So Paul, let me ask you about that. First of all, I mean, revitalizing the high street has been a long heralded plan on on all sides. What do you think of what Boris Johnson says, Well, business for it. I think it's the big zeitgeist in this discussion. It get put getting pull up all the time that taxes are too high and if all you aquid taxes on for these sort of poor independent businesses and these struggling high streets, everything will be all right. But it's not really dealing with the fundamental problem that these places face in that they haven't got many people walking past the doors. They just aren't many customers walking literally past the front door of those shops or restaurants or cafes then for those private prenurs to sell to and so cutting business way, which is something that I think a number of the parties have suggested over the last couple of years, is unlikely to change that fundamental challenge that these places face. We've got to be trying to get more people into into those those high streets if we want to see the fortunes of those areas turn around. So what's causing that? Is it the hangover of austerity? Is it the Amazon effect? What's going on? I think it's broader than that. You know, the first or the big point to make from this is that even though it makes good headlines that if toys are goes bust or Mothercare goes bust, that you know, it's all of the papers and the impression is that the high street is dying, the reality is the high street isn't dying everywhere, and in some places actually doing pretty well. So if you were to go to the center of Manchester or the center of Leeds or the center of it and do what you would find, perhaps even despite the weather a deal, there'll be a lot of people walking around. Um and crucially part of that will be a lot of people in suits as well. And so what we're seeing here is that these high streets are sitting within strong city center economies that are putting many people in hundreds of thousands, well so tens of thousands in many cases, hundred thousand in Manchester's case. Um, those people are coming in the morning there from hours of nine to five at least. There might be going out at lunchtime, that might be going out after work to the bars and restaurants. There might even be scribed in the afternoon. You see it quietly, and that's then creating this market that you know, private school when I've got some people are sell to here. So so Paul, you said that, you said that what the plans, you're not that impressed by the plans that are coming through. And what you said is that the key is is business rates. It's it's it's the way that the businesses that the challenges they face in terms of what they have to play. What do you want to see from the parties? What's the list? The big thing for us is trying to under us is focusing on the city center economy of the place that I've got struggling high streets. So it's not just on the very narrow element of or this periadi of shops is not doing very well, so let's do some tax cuts and some some bunting. It's actually saying why are businesses not coming to invest in these places? And I'm not talking retail business I'm talking office based businesses. So it's it's software development, it's finance, it's law, it's all the other types of businesses you see in successful there's what do you do? Partly says okay, this is the list. Manifestos are coming out, I think this weekend most of them. What should they have on that? Yes, So the first thing is a focus on skills. So if you're a high school business looking to stick your pins somewhere in the map of the UK, you need the skilled work you start going to have an impact on your bottom line. And we tend to have very little discussion about that because it's quite hard and the policies on on clear in terms of what it is you would actually do. But that's gotta be the number one focus. The second thing we would have is um we would create a city center productivity fund. Now, not many people actually know it even the number of chancellors have announced a number of times, is that there is a thirty seven billion pounds National Productivity Infrastructure Fund available. Not all that money has been allocated. What we would say from that is they take five billion pounds of that allocated the city center productivity funds and places and have to bid in with credible plans, credible long term plans. But how they want to try and make their city centers more attractive places to do business and how would they would then use the money from the funds to help do that? So what do you make of the lib Dem policy around the skills wanted to give people money throughout their life to keep retraining. I think these are interesting ideas. Um the there's an issue about skills that people have got today or haven't as the case maybe, and that's a particular challenge in the in the North of England that the idea of um of trying to continue updear people skills is important too. You know, we're seeing you ever change every faster change in the world of work. People need a different array of skills to be able to adapt as the types of jobs available adapt as well. So I think having the conversation in the in the national arena about things like skills, wallet or or other ideas that similar ideas have been suggested by other parties, and I think is an important part of it. But will of necessity training is going to be doesn't expense long term, it's going to take a while to get there. But like tomorrow after Christmas, what is it that you would need to give firms or firms would need to have to keep themselves going to keep the city going. Well, the issue is that this is a long term problem. You know, it's something that is being going on um for you know, third or four years, perhaps even a hundred years and some of the research that that we've been doing, so there isn't a short term fixed unfortunately. Um, there are some things around the margins you might be able to do in terms of well how would you try and um, if there's a couple of derelict buildings, how do you try and make them look a little bit smarter? Can you get some short term use in those buildings? So there's activity going on as well, But fundamentally we have to understand why the businesses and look at where they do and why is that they're therefore not locating in certain places and try and change that. But if we're talking about an issue that has been thirty or forty years in the making, unfortunately that just isn't that's your term fixed. It's got to be a very focused response, but focused on long term response to what is a wide ranging and long term decline that we've seen in some places. And what about the level which this happens. We had Andy Burnham on the other day, they now they may have greater Manchester talking about his manifesto for the North that he's supporting and how he wants cities in the North to be able to take more power and do more to to to reskill their their workers as one example. Do you think that's something that's workable surely in the I mean the North for a lot of big cities that perhaps aren't achieving their potential for various reasons. Absolutely. I think Manchester has um always been very good in terms of negotiating with government over the last of six or seven years in terms of getting a devolution deal in place. And now, as you see, I've got Andy Burnham in place, who's got quite a lot of powers relative to other parts of the u K. And that's the thing that the I think all parties should be setting up their pictures and their manifesto say well, how are we going to devolve more powers to the place that haven't got those devolution deals at the moment. What is interesting about that is that while Manchester got those powers, powers still aren't as um as wide arranging as London, a more successful city's locally why that's the case, but then even in London, London's context and the global economy, actually London has very few powers as well. You know, if you would have got to America, for example, city mayors, they've got lords more powers and what London's got. So we want to see broader levels of devolution, but actually more powers given to those places that have got a devolution deal in place. Paul, what about communication, because that's what a lot of people talk about, the ability to be able to go quickly between places. And of course that brings us to HS two, which is a huge thing, and we know that there's been a government sponsored review of it all they come up and said, well, actually something it's an't good but actually overall idea should go ahead. It's can be vastly expensive. Would it help with what you're talking about? I think it comes down to again, what is it that we're trying to achieve from from something like HS two or HS three. Now, I think with HS to the the message seems to be that the west course of Main nine is a capacity and by putting HS too in place actually leaves a capacity and allows people to move around. That's a good thing. Whether it's good enough given the costs of the project now is something that needs to be assessed. But if we then look at something like Northern Powerhouse Real or HS three, is it it gets also no one has which is this idea of better linking cities in the north that is very much sold on the basis that well, people would be at the commute now and they live on the east side of of Leeds and going community into Manchester City Center. But when much more skeptical about that. I think if you look at them the patterns of traveling in other similar places like the Ryan rural area of Germany and the Rancho area of Holland, the two areas that were just used to justify the policy, they've got very productive or very productive economies and very good rail ways. What we find is that people tend to live and work in the same place. You know, they don't want to travel long distances and commuting is a cost. The reason why people commute so far into London is because wages are high and house prices are high. You know, in a place like around Leeds and Manchester, wages are improving, but they're nowhere near as high as what they are in London. And actually, do you know what, house prices aren't that expensive either. You're not forced out, so why would you be increasing the length of your commute. Bloomberg Westminster listen week days at noon on d a B digital radio in London.