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Hi, it's Jason Kelly. I'm the chief correspondent for Bloomberg Originals and co host of The Deal with my partner Alex Rodriguez. I also wrote a book about the private equity industry called The New Tycoons. It's all about the firms and the people at the center of this massive industry, and no one was bigger than David Bonderman, who died on December eleventh at the age of eighty two. He co founded TPG back in the early nineteen nineties and along the way became a face for the booming deal world, engineering takeovers of everything from Continental Airlines to Burger King to j crwe specializing in deals few others would go near. He was also an iconoclast, building his firm far from Wall Street, basing TPG in San Francisco and Fort Worth, and choosing khakis over suits, and inviting rock stars to his annual investor meetings.

Hi, it's Jason Kelly. I'm the chief correspondent for Bloomberg Originals and co host of The Deal with my partner Alex Rodriguez. I also wrote a book about the private equity industry called The New Tycoons. It's all about the firms and the people at the center of this massive industry, and no one was bigger than David Bonderman, who died on December eleventh at the age of eighty two. He co founded TPG back in the early nineteen nineties and along the way became a face for the booming deal world, engineering takeovers of everything from Continental Airlines to Burger King to j crwe specializing in deals few others would go near. He was also an iconoclast, building his firm far from Wall Street, basing TPG in San Francisco and Fort Worth, and choosing khakis over suits, and inviting rock stars to his annual investor meetings.

Few knew him.

Few knew him.

Better than Jim Colter, his TPG co founder, who met Bonderman when the two men started working for the Bass Family in were Worth almost forty years ago. They created TPG together in nineteen ninety three, Jim joined me in New York to talk about Bonderman and his profound influence on the investing world and beyond. Obviously a very sad day, Jim, for the team at TPG, for really the entire investing world. So, first of all, condolence is of the loss of your longtime partner, and thank you for spending some time with us here.

Better than Jim Colter, his TPG co founder, who met Bonderman when the two men started working for the Bass Family in were Worth almost forty years ago. They created TPG together in nineteen ninety three, Jim joined me in New York to talk about Bonderman and his profound influence on the investing world and beyond. Obviously a very sad day, Jim, for the team at TPG, for really the entire investing world. So, first of all, condolence is of the loss of your longtime partner, and thank you for spending some time with us here.

Thank you, Jason.

Thank you, Jason.

So David Bondman, it's amazing to read about his impact on the broader investment world. He is a one of the best known names, one of the icons. You knew him better than anybody in this business. What specifically did he bring to this business that was unique to him?

So David Bondman, it's amazing to read about his impact on the broader investment world. He is a one of the best known names, one of the icons. You knew him better than anybody in this business. What specifically did he bring to this business that was unique to him?

David really is a legend in the industry.

David really is a legend in the industry.

But he's a legend for several reasons, and I think there's three particular things. First of all, he pioneered a type of investing. Secondly, he built a firm that had a distinctive place in the industry. And thirty had a really trusting personal style that I think helped evolve the style.

But he's a legend for several reasons, and I think there's three particular things. First of all, he pioneered a type of investing. Secondly, he built a firm that had a distinctive place in the industry. And thirty had a really trusting personal style that I think helped evolve the style.

Of this industry.

Of this industry.

And so what did he do, how did that work in practice?

And so what did he do, how did that work in practice?

What was he doing as a deal maker that really set him apart.

What was he doing as a deal maker that really set him apart.

David did deal making as problem solving.

David did deal making as problem solving.

So if you think about some of his signature deals, they were deals that everyone saw.

So if you think about some of his signature deals, they were deals that everyone saw.

But no one else was willing to take on.

But no one else was willing to take on.

And it wasn't that he was taking on more risk, it was that he saw something different. Take the Continental Airlines deal, legendary deal in the industry, the most hated company in America, the biggest bankruptcy in US history.

And it wasn't that he was taking on more risk, it was that he saw something different. Take the Continental Airlines deal, legendary deal in the industry, the most hated company in America, the biggest bankruptcy in US history.

It sat there for two years.

It sat there for two years.

Dave and I put together a deal that carved out a new Continental and took it from worse to first in seven years. Warren Buffett said that airlines were financial sinkholes. David over and over made successful investments in airlines. When others saw the SNL crisis, David saw the SNL opportunity unity. We created the good bank bad bank structure for American savings when working with Bess, and then we exported that structure around the world to do bank rescues in China, in Korea. Again, deals that no one else did, and that a problem solving approach really was appeared at a moment that the industry was mostly about changing capital structures, not companies.

Dave and I put together a deal that carved out a new Continental and took it from worse to first in seven years. Warren Buffett said that airlines were financial sinkholes. David over and over made successful investments in airlines. When others saw the SNL crisis, David saw the SNL opportunity unity. We created the good bank bad bank structure for American savings when working with Bess, and then we exported that structure around the world to do bank rescues in China, in Korea. Again, deals that no one else did, and that a problem solving approach really was appeared at a moment that the industry was mostly about changing capital structures, not companies.

All right, So you said something to me before we came on air, which I found fascinating, which is that David was a polymath investor. The Blueberg audience is pretty smart, but you need to break this down what that actually means in practice.

All right, So you said something to me before we came on air, which I found fascinating, which is that David was a polymath investor. The Blueberg audience is pretty smart, but you need to break this down what that actually means in practice.

Poly Math is from the Greek and it's basically a person who has broad and diverse interests but uses that knowledge and interest to solve problems. And so David really didn't come to investing until his forties.

Poly Math is from the Greek and it's basically a person who has broad and diverse interests but uses that knowledge and interest to solve problems. And so David really didn't come to investing until his forties.

Think about that. He had several careers before.

Think about that. He had several careers before.

He was a litigator, He was argued in front of the Supreme Court. He taught law Tulane, he studied Islamic law on Tunis. This was a person that ever took a finance class, didn't know accounting, and yet was he brought that broad experience and problem solving expertise to the problems of investing. And his ability to use different experiences he had to solve problems I think really created his style, and it's a polymast style.

He was a litigator, He was argued in front of the Supreme Court. He taught law Tulane, he studied Islamic law on Tunis. This was a person that ever took a finance class, didn't know accounting, and yet was he brought that broad experience and problem solving expertise to the problems of investing. And his ability to use different experiences he had to solve problems I think really created his style, and it's a polymast style.

It was not one thing.

It was not one thing.

It was a unique ability to see opportunity and frankly solve problems well.

It was a unique ability to see opportunity and frankly solve problems well.

And it translated into him being I have to say, one of those eclectic, maybe eccentric sort of figures in an industry that didn't always Certainly the broader Wall Street doesn't.

And it translated into him being I have to say, one of those eclectic, maybe eccentric sort of figures in an industry that didn't always Certainly the broader Wall Street doesn't.

Always sort of embrace change.

Always sort of embrace change.

So how was he received in this broader Wall Street world?

So how was he received in this broader Wall Street world?

In your estimation, David was many things, but he was never boring.

In your estimation, David was many things, but he was never boring.

We used to laugh that David often brought like a rock and roll backbeat into rooms that were used to classical music. It was a very different style. He was known for his ridiculous socks. I mean, there were just ridiculous. When others were drinking fine wine, he was drinking diet coke. He's flew one thousand hours a year to meetings anywhere. It's a very personal thing for him. And his style was informal, it was direct. He couldn't stand obfuscation. And that style was sort of a different, a different wind in the industry at the time, and it opened up the opportunity for different types of styles to really flourish. It's an industry that had incredible talent among its founding brethren, but David brought I think a little bit of a different attitude and frankly, you know, a lot of fun.

We used to laugh that David often brought like a rock and roll backbeat into rooms that were used to classical music. It was a very different style. He was known for his ridiculous socks. I mean, there were just ridiculous. When others were drinking fine wine, he was drinking diet coke. He's flew one thousand hours a year to meetings anywhere. It's a very personal thing for him. And his style was informal, it was direct. He couldn't stand obfuscation. And that style was sort of a different, a different wind in the industry at the time, and it opened up the opportunity for different types of styles to really flourish. It's an industry that had incredible talent among its founding brethren, but David brought I think a little bit of a different attitude and frankly, you know, a lot of fun.

Into a very serious business.

Into a very serious business.

And so how do you build to firm around that?

And so how do you build to firm around that?

I mean that you can be sort of a you know, sort of an iconoclast as a single person.

I mean that you can be sort of a you know, sort of an iconoclast as a single person.

You know, maybe as a small firm.

You know, maybe as a small firm.

You guys started out as three people in ninety two, ninety three, but now thousands of employees, quarter trillion dollars in assets. How does that sort of grow into something this big.

You guys started out as three people in ninety two, ninety three, but now thousands of employees, quarter trillion dollars in assets. How does that sort of grow into something this big.

I've been doing this long time. Culture and curiosity.

I've been doing this long time. Culture and curiosity.

So in some ways what we described you and I about David became how you describe TPG in some ways. At a time that the industry was very much about finance, was very much focused in New York, we came out of a family office in Texas.

So in some ways what we described you and I about David became how you describe TPG in some ways. At a time that the industry was very much about finance, was very much focused in New York, we came out of a family office in Texas.

We set up on the West Coast.

We set up on the West Coast.

I used to say that, and you do sports a lot, Jason, that we were playing the same game, but differently. We were the West Coast offense of private equity. And to do that you have to get a culture of curiosity and problem solving. And I think at the first fundraise we did for TPG, our tagline was contrarianism, complexity, and change. At a time the industry was more focused on franchise businesses in finance. Contrarianism, complexity, and change, and I think those lines of problem solving and a different approach Really were what David brought to the business in the early days.

I used to say that, and you do sports a lot, Jason, that we were playing the same game, but differently. We were the West Coast offense of private equity. And to do that you have to get a culture of curiosity and problem solving. And I think at the first fundraise we did for TPG, our tagline was contrarianism, complexity, and change. At a time the industry was more focused on franchise businesses in finance. Contrarianism, complexity, and change, and I think those lines of problem solving and a different approach Really were what David brought to the business in the early days.

Not afraid to take big swings.

Not afraid to take big swings.

I mean, was that but you know part of his ethos do you think, like being able to really go big on something.

I mean, was that but you know part of his ethos do you think, like being able to really go big on something.

Yeah, it was never about ego or size. It was about really interesting problems and sometimes we got it wrong. Yeah, if you're doing this type of investing, you know five percent of the time you'll make mistakes, and probably you should be taking that sort of risk. But the key is never make the same mistakes if you can help it, and importantly learn from all of them. And David and I think our firm has been a lifelong learner on those.

Yeah, it was never about ego or size. It was about really interesting problems and sometimes we got it wrong. Yeah, if you're doing this type of investing, you know five percent of the time you'll make mistakes, and probably you should be taking that sort of risk. But the key is never make the same mistakes if you can help it, and importantly learn from all of them. And David and I think our firm has been a lifelong learner on those.

So I think somehow.

So I think somehow.

We've been able to grow with the industry but still keep some of that essence of doing it a little differently and looking at new deals. I mean even today, as you know, Jason, we've taken on impact investing, climate investing. These are new things, new problems, done in a new way, and that ethos I think was what we started with almost forty years ago, and we've tried to very much guard today.

We've been able to grow with the industry but still keep some of that essence of doing it a little differently and looking at new deals. I mean even today, as you know, Jason, we've taken on impact investing, climate investing. These are new things, new problems, done in a new way, and that ethos I think was what we started with almost forty years ago, and we've tried to very much guard today.

How'd you build a partnership with him?

How'd you build a partnership with him?

You guys are not the same you showed up in Texas. You know, Dartmouth undergrad Stanford Business School. He was a University of Washington bankruptcy lawyer save Grand Central. How does that marriage of a sort happen?

You guys are not the same you showed up in Texas. You know, Dartmouth undergrad Stanford Business School. He was a University of Washington bankruptcy lawyer save Grand Central. How does that marriage of a sort happen?

I think there's two types of partnerships.

I think there's two types of partnerships.

One are people who are very much the same, almost can complete each other's sentences. The other type of partnership are people who are very different but share the same values. And I think David and I brought different skill sets, different views of the world, but values on fairness, the idea of you can leave the last cent on the table to create a win win, and we agreed on the type of firm and culture we wanted to build. So complimented each other, respected each other, but also brought some balance to the equation.

One are people who are very much the same, almost can complete each other's sentences. The other type of partnership are people who are very different but share the same values. And I think David and I brought different skill sets, different views of the world, but values on fairness, the idea of you can leave the last cent on the table to create a win win, and we agreed on the type of firm and culture we wanted to build. So complimented each other, respected each other, but also brought some balance to the equation.

How do you think he changed you as an investor and as an executive?

How do you think he changed you as an investor and as an executive?

I think David was, as well as being a great investor, simply a great business person.

I think David was, as well as being a great investor, simply a great business person.

You know, he's served on eighty different corporate boards. Who does that? You know?

You know, he's served on eighty different corporate boards. Who does that? You know?

Eighty different corporate boards, from GM to Dakati, from Behringer to Burger King. Immensely diverse, and that viewpoint something was often underestimated with David really helped me be.

Eighty different corporate boards, from GM to Dakati, from Behringer to Burger King. Immensely diverse, and that viewpoint something was often underestimated with David really helped me be.

A bit better businessman.

A bit better businessman.

It's about being straightforward, it's about seeing different things. It's about patients from time to time, and even when things go wrong, you don't step back, you step in. So I think his polymath skills really extended into the business world.

It's about being straightforward, it's about seeing different things. It's about patients from time to time, and even when things go wrong, you don't step back, you step in. So I think his polymath skills really extended into the business world.

All right.

All right.

I mentioned earlier this is a massive, massive industry at this point that what we used to call private equity, it's now alternative investing these firms, including yours, or doing lots of different things.

I mentioned earlier this is a massive, massive industry at this point that what we used to call private equity, it's now alternative investing these firms, including yours, or doing lots of different things.

How do you take.

How do you take.

That Bonderman ethos, you know, the sort of like you know he's calling in to an investment committee, meaning from Timbuck to to you know, now a publicly traded company. How do you maintain that essence? Because I know that culture is something it's important to you, you study it, how do you really institutionalize that culture.

That Bonderman ethos, you know, the sort of like you know he's calling in to an investment committee, meaning from Timbuck to to you know, now a publicly traded company. How do you maintain that essence? Because I know that culture is something it's important to you, you study it, how do you really institutionalize that culture.

Fight conformity in all ways? I think if you were starting this business today, sometimes I think that people who are looking at it field they have to learn finance in their crib and have to go through internships.

Fight conformity in all ways? I think if you were starting this business today, sometimes I think that people who are looking at it field they have to learn finance in their crib and have to go through internships.

David came to this, as I said before, in his forties.

David came to this, as I said before, in his forties.

He brought that wide set of experiences, and I think the understanding that you can ask different questions, approach problems in different ways is something the industry needs to.

He brought that wide set of experiences, and I think the understanding that you can ask different questions, approach problems in different ways is something the industry needs to.

Say true to today.

Say true to today.

So that's spirit, the spirit of problem solving, curiosity, a little bit of courage.

So that's spirit, the spirit of problem solving, curiosity, a little bit of courage.

Put together with a broad view.

Put together with a broad view.

Is something the industry still needs today. And I think the industry is delivering that men's talent in the industry. We have to just make sure that it's not delivered in one way.

Is something the industry still needs today. And I think the industry is delivering that men's talent in the industry. We have to just make sure that it's not delivered in one way.

And so as he sort of kind of moved on from the firm, and we'll talk a little bit about what he was doing in the latter years of his life. You know, how did how how did you sort of honor his legacy?

And so as he sort of kind of moved on from the firm, and we'll talk a little bit about what he was doing in the latter years of his life. You know, how did how how did you sort of honor his legacy?

How did he stay involved?

How did he stay involved?

Well, David always had broad interests and one of the interesting things about his career is he's mentored and spawned many businesses and helped many businesses, from Mark Lazari to Tom Barrick to Mark's Stad to Wasijing Shan. There are disciples around the industry that have picked up some of his investing style in ethos and he continued to do that as he continued to have TPG as a cornerstone. But he went on, as you know, to be active in sports and yes, he had been an investor in the Celtics, but he did a typical Bondo thing. By the way, just the nickname Bondo was different in the industry.

Well, David always had broad interests and one of the interesting things about his career is he's mentored and spawned many businesses and helped many businesses, from Mark Lazari to Tom Barrick to Mark's Stad to Wasijing Shan. There are disciples around the industry that have picked up some of his investing style in ethos and he continued to do that as he continued to have TPG as a cornerstone. But he went on, as you know, to be active in sports and yes, he had been an investor in the Celtics, but he did a typical Bondo thing. By the way, just the nickname Bondo was different in the industry.

He did a typical Bondo.

He did a typical Bondo.

Thing, which is he took on a problem no one else would, bringing back a team indoors in Seattle, rebuilt an arena where he had worked as a security guard when.

Thing, which is he took on a problem no one else would, bringing back a team indoors in Seattle, rebuilt an arena where he had worked as a security guard when.

He was an undergrad at University of Washington.

He was an undergrad at University of Washington.

It was a worthy outcome the Kraken, yet it was done in a very Bondo polymath way.

It was a worthy outcome the Kraken, yet it was done in a very Bondo polymath way.

Yeah, it's interesting.

Yeah, it's interesting.

So let's talk about that for a second, because I was listening to something in preparation for this from Toddler Wicki, who's the president of the Kraken, and he was talking about the fact that the complexity was a feature, not a bug, and that seemed to be sort of a reflection of the sort of bondermin ethos of deal making.

So let's talk about that for a second, because I was listening to something in preparation for this from Toddler Wicki, who's the president of the Kraken, and he was talking about the fact that the complexity was a feature, not a bug, and that seemed to be sort of a reflection of the sort of bondermin ethos of deal making.

Is that fair? That's a great way to put it.

Is that fair? That's a great way to put it.

And I saw that for thirty eight years that we worked together. Is if something hadn't been done, you start with a question of why not and the curiosity of whether it might be done. So there had been much talk in Seattle about bringing back teams, but the ability to really take it on as a hard problem is something that I think is very.

And I saw that for thirty eight years that we worked together. Is if something hadn't been done, you start with a question of why not and the curiosity of whether it might be done. So there had been much talk in Seattle about bringing back teams, but the ability to really take it on as a hard problem is something that I think is very.

Much David's legacy.

Much David's legacy.

He did that in business, he did it for the industry, and he's done it in his life.

He did that in business, he did it for the industry, and he's done it in his life.

And so take me all the way back.

And so take me all the way back.

I mean, let's go all the way back to when you first meet this guy again.

I mean, let's go all the way back to when you first meet this guy again.

You show up in Texas, You're like, well, a tagated guy.

You show up in Texas, You're like, well, a tagated guy.

You're going to make your way on, you know, for this this family that's doing some investing.

You're going to make your way on, you know, for this this family that's doing some investing.

And you run across this kind and you're like, I'm sorry, what, okay, that's cool.

And you run across this kind and you're like, I'm sorry, what, okay, that's cool.

You argue in front of the Supreme Court, what are you going to tell me about in investing?

You argue in front of the Supreme Court, what are you going to tell me about in investing?

And yet he did, Like I was.

And yet he did, Like I was.

I was chatting with Tom Barrick earlier and he said, you know, we were the farm system for this, you know, great investor.

I was chatting with Tom Barrick earlier and he said, you know, we were the farm system for this, you know, great investor.

What was that like?

What was that like?

We were all fortunate to work with Bob Bess who kind of gave us the leeway to develop this type of style. But what was interesting is that David hadn't really done much investing.

We were all fortunate to work with Bob Bess who kind of gave us the leeway to develop this type of style. But what was interesting is that David hadn't really done much investing.

I was coming as a junior person. We had not much of a team.

I was coming as a junior person. We had not much of a team.

The first deal we did together was a cable TV roll up, and we went on with a small office to do the first reinsurance deal, something called National Reinsurance buy out of Bell and Howell, bought Weston out of un Airlines, sold the plosit to Donald Trump. A series of deal after deal, and I think it was we were kind of learning on the job.

The first deal we did together was a cable TV roll up, and we went on with a small office to do the first reinsurance deal, something called National Reinsurance buy out of Bell and Howell, bought Weston out of un Airlines, sold the plosit to Donald Trump. A series of deal after deal, and I think it was we were kind of learning on the job.

We were undaunted by that.

We were undaunted by that.

And in some ways, not having the framework of how it was supposed to work, we could create a different framework of how.

And in some ways, not having the framework of how it was supposed to work, we could create a different framework of how.

It would work.

It would work.

So tell me about the decision that you guys make in ninety two. You're going to go after Continental Bob Bess basically says, go with God, Like, I'm not going to do this, You guys can go do it on your own.

So tell me about the decision that you guys make in ninety two. You're going to go after Continental Bob Bess basically says, go with God, Like, I'm not going to do this, You guys can go do it on your own.

What's that moment like? And do you know at that.

What's that moment like? And do you know at that.

Point that you're creating something new and different or is this just a deal that you're interested in doing?

Point that you're creating something new and different or is this just a deal that you're interested in doing?

Somewhere between deeply interesting and absolutely terrifying. Again, this is the most hated company in the country, the biggest bankruptcy in US corporate history. No one else is showing up, We have no money, we have to put together the money, do the deal, etc.

Somewhere between deeply interesting and absolutely terrifying. Again, this is the most hated company in the country, the biggest bankruptcy in US corporate history. No one else is showing up, We have no money, we have to put together the money, do the deal, etc.

But it was a.

But it was a.

Fascinating one of the most fascinating business problems I've ever seen, So in some ways what motivated us was the problem and the opportunity. It was like a hunk of marble and you had to see what was inside it. So I think for us we probably didn't know better. If someone was starting a business today, this particular deal would have in capitals at the bottom, don't try this at home. But we did try it at home, and that made all the difference.

Fascinating one of the most fascinating business problems I've ever seen, So in some ways what motivated us was the problem and the opportunity. It was like a hunk of marble and you had to see what was inside it. So I think for us we probably didn't know better. If someone was starting a business today, this particular deal would have in capitals at the bottom, don't try this at home. But we did try it at home, and that made all the difference.

How did you know that it was going to then become that there was a business to be built out of doing this?

How did you know that it was going to then become that there was a business to be built out of doing this?

How soon did you make the decision?

How soon did you make the decision?

What was that decision like to create an entirely new firm.

What was that decision like to create an entirely new firm.

After we did the Continental deal, we had a long discussion because at that time there were two ways we could have gone. We could have kept doing deal by deal, which was a Richard Rainwater model, or we could build a firm.

After we did the Continental deal, we had a long discussion because at that time there were two ways we could have gone. We could have kept doing deal by deal, which was a Richard Rainwater model, or we could build a firm.

We made the.

We made the.

Call then that the industry was going to develop in a way that you had to have broader resources in a more permanent structure really to be able to not serve us, but to serve the people that would join the firm.

Call then that the industry was going to develop in a way that you had to have broader resources in a more permanent structure really to be able to not serve us, but to serve the people that would join the firm.

We needed to have a future for them.

We needed to have a future for them.

So we brought in a third partner, Bill Price, who was kind of our operating side of the business, And we decided to name it not after ourselves, but a name that was kind of low key and could be what it was going to be beyond us. And I think that decision to build a firm and the generosity that that implied really.

So we brought in a third partner, Bill Price, who was kind of our operating side of the business, And we decided to name it not after ourselves, but a name that was kind of low key and could be what it was going to be beyond us. And I think that decision to build a firm and the generosity that that implied really.

Was part of David's legacy.

Was part of David's legacy.

Were you sure it was going to work?

Were you sure it was going to work?

Never sure it was going to work?

Never sure it was going to work?

We live in a world we call constructive paranoia, which is you always have to be constructive, but at night you have to make sure you're not making mistakes.

We live in a world we call constructive paranoia, which is you always have to be constructive, but at night you have to make sure you're not making mistakes.

And did you think, like were there timing over those thirty eight years?

And did you think, like were there timing over those thirty eight years?

I mean, you've done, you know.

I mean, you've done, you know.

Tremendously successful deals, as you mentioned earlier, some deals that didn't work.

Tremendously successful deals, as you mentioned earlier, some deals that didn't work.

Was there ever a moment you're like.

Was there ever a moment you're like.

Maybe this isn't maybe this isn't the right thing, Like how did how much doubt comes into it? And what's Bondo's sort of what's his frame of mind in those moments?

Maybe this isn't maybe this isn't the right thing, Like how did how much doubt comes into it? And what's Bondo's sort of what's his frame of mind in those moments?

You know, David, if things are going wrong, you want David with you in the foxhol So I've never seen him daunted or I never saw him daunted or down by problem and you also begin to get perspective. Jason, You've been around this industry for a while. We continuously declared private equity dead in nineteen eighty nine, in nineteen ninety seven, in two thousand and one, in two thousand and seven, in twenty fifteen, were declaring it, you know, dead today in some ways or diminished. But what you learn is it's a very powerful, very powerful economic engine. It's investing with a bigger toolbox, and so stay the course.

You know, David, if things are going wrong, you want David with you in the foxhol So I've never seen him daunted or I never saw him daunted or down by problem and you also begin to get perspective. Jason, You've been around this industry for a while. We continuously declared private equity dead in nineteen eighty nine, in nineteen ninety seven, in two thousand and one, in two thousand and seven, in twenty fifteen, were declaring it, you know, dead today in some ways or diminished. But what you learn is it's a very powerful, very powerful economic engine. It's investing with a bigger toolbox, and so stay the course.

And what I find interesting about that that stay the course idea is that as going back to this notion of the industry institutionalizing, it goes public, you guys are the last of the big firms to do that. Like this contrarianism, like not only you know is there it takes hold it as sort of a core principle. How much was was David sort of driving that, Like what would it bring him into that discussion?

And what I find interesting about that that stay the course idea is that as going back to this notion of the industry institutionalizing, it goes public, you guys are the last of the big firms to do that. Like this contrarianism, like not only you know is there it takes hold it as sort of a core principle. How much was was David sort of driving that, Like what would it bring him into that discussion?

Yeah, Jason, you've written one of the best books on this, and I hope you will continue to work on this because the story of this industry and how it went from a few people doing deals to something that touches and probably employees ten percent of the economy today there's more than forty five hundred private equity firms. We used to all know each other in the industry.

Yeah, Jason, you've written one of the best books on this, and I hope you will continue to work on this because the story of this industry and how it went from a few people doing deals to something that touches and probably employees ten percent of the economy today there's more than forty five hundred private equity firms. We used to all know each other in the industry.

That evolution.

That evolution.

Is one of the more interesting stories in business. I went back a few years ago far threieth anniversion and I looked at the growth of the industry over the period TPG has been there. It's grown fifteen percent a year compounded for thirty years.

Is one of the more interesting stories in business. I went back a few years ago far threieth anniversion and I looked at the growth of the industry over the period TPG has been there. It's grown fifteen percent a year compounded for thirty years.

I couldn't find another business.

I couldn't find another business.

Fourteen and a half percent was the growth of Chinese electronics, So that growth has been extraordinary. I think what David's role was was shaping the fact that it could be a different set.

Fourteen and a half percent was the growth of Chinese electronics, So that growth has been extraordinary. I think what David's role was was shaping the fact that it could be a different set.

Of styles that it could grow.

Of styles that it could grow.

He was also personally extraordinarily important in opening Asian private equity. As you know, TPG was one of the first firms to go to Asia in nineteen ninety four, and David was instrumental in both driving that move and frankly building the business throughout the region.

He was also personally extraordinarily important in opening Asian private equity. As you know, TPG was one of the first firms to go to Asia in nineteen ninety four, and David was instrumental in both driving that move and frankly building the business throughout the region.

And so one of the things that I'm glad you brought up Asia, because you know one of the.

And so one of the things that I'm glad you brought up Asia, because you know one of the.

I think it.

I think it.

Feels like it is something that couldn't be true, but I've heard enough people say that it must be that he would literally get on a plane to go have lunch in Shanghai, like, he was very much a practitioner of the art.

Feels like it is something that couldn't be true, but I've heard enough people say that it must be that he would literally get on a plane to go have lunch in Shanghai, like, he was very much a practitioner of the art.

Of showing up.

Of showing up.

Yeah, is that a fair assessment? And why do you think that?

Yeah, is that a fair assessment? And why do you think that?

Well?

Well?

What was driving him to do that?

What was driving him to do that?

David always viewed the business, and I think we all should is very personal. If you're going to solve problems, it's so much easier to do it in person.

David always viewed the business, and I think we all should is very personal. If you're going to solve problems, it's so much easier to do it in person.

And he was so quick on his.

And he was so quick on his.

Feet that to actually get in the room with someone was one of his greatest Secondly, he had always been an internationalist.

Feet that to actually get in the room with someone was one of his greatest Secondly, he had always been an internationalist.

He loved traveling.

He loved traveling.

In fact, after traveling incessantly for work, when he got a week off, he would travel. So he on average flu for a number of top years, one thousand hours.

In fact, after traveling incessantly for work, when he got a week off, he would travel. So he on average flu for a number of top years, one thousand hours.

I want you to do the math on that, A thousand hours and one particular story.

I want you to do the math on that, A thousand hours and one particular story.

I was talking to his assistant the other day who was relating to me. In the middle of that binge of travel, the budgeting people at TPG asked.

I was talking to his assistant the other day who was relating to me. In the middle of that binge of travel, the budgeting people at TPG asked.

For next year's budget.

For next year's budget.

She gave him the hours, and they asked for the hotel costs and she said there aren't hotels.

She gave him the hours, and they asked for the hotel costs and she said there aren't hotels.

He said, it's only acts and they said.

He said, it's only acts and they said.

I can't be x and they said there aren't hotels because David used to fly overnight, get off the plane, shower at the FBO, and go. He didn't use hotels because that was the way he went and for him, it was I think part hobby, part interests, but you know, absolutely a tool for getting done what he could get done, and frankly one of his superpowers.

I can't be x and they said there aren't hotels because David used to fly overnight, get off the plane, shower at the FBO, and go. He didn't use hotels because that was the way he went and for him, it was I think part hobby, part interests, but you know, absolutely a tool for getting done what he could get done, and frankly one of his superpowers.

So let's talk about his life outside of TPG because it certainly informs it. It informs him as an investor, all the things he's doing with wildlife conservation, rock and roll. I mean, those two alone are rich for discussion. What was it about those things that ended up sort of informing him as a business person and as an investor.

So let's talk about his life outside of TPG because it certainly informs it. It informs him as an investor, all the things he's doing with wildlife conservation, rock and roll. I mean, those two alone are rich for discussion. What was it about those things that ended up sort of informing him as a business person and as an investor.

David had things that appealed to him, that he loved, and he was fiercely loyal to them.

David had things that appealed to him, that he loved, and he was fiercely loyal to them.

Let me tell you one diet coke.

Let me tell you one diet coke.

David drank more diet coke than anyone I've ever seen. In fact, it was a problem when we bought Continental because they had a contract with pepsi, oh boy, and he would not drink diet pepsi. So literally, as we went through airports, we would buy cans of diet coke and take them onto the plane with us. Because he wouldn't drink pepsi, and so he was passionate about He's passionate about rock and roll. Well before TPG, he would hold rock and roll parties and at annual meetings. When we started the business, most other firms had Margaret Thatcher and James Baker after dinner. We were the first firms to have Jimmy Buffett and Elton John things that Dave and I typically supported personally for these meetings.

David drank more diet coke than anyone I've ever seen. In fact, it was a problem when we bought Continental because they had a contract with pepsi, oh boy, and he would not drink diet pepsi. So literally, as we went through airports, we would buy cans of diet coke and take them onto the plane with us. Because he wouldn't drink pepsi, and so he was passionate about He's passionate about rock and roll. Well before TPG, he would hold rock and roll parties and at annual meetings. When we started the business, most other firms had Margaret Thatcher and James Baker after dinner. We were the first firms to have Jimmy Buffett and Elton John things that Dave and I typically supported personally for these meetings.

And so he loved Dia Coke. He loved rock and roll, and he really loved the wilderness of all sorts. He loved hiking.

And so he loved Dia Coke. He loved rock and roll, and he really loved the wilderness of all sorts. He loved hiking.

He went into the Himalayas many times in a Mustang that others hadn't gone in. So if you look at his interest, we never bought Coca Cola, but he did support the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, he did support the Wilderness Society, and he's been very active in conservation activities around the world, often quietly at a scale people don't understand, but from the Grand Canyon Trust to Mustang, he's made a difference.

He went into the Himalayas many times in a Mustang that others hadn't gone in. So if you look at his interest, we never bought Coca Cola, but he did support the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, he did support the Wilderness Society, and he's been very active in conservation activities around the world, often quietly at a scale people don't understand, but from the Grand Canyon Trust to Mustang, he's made a difference.

And I think it's fair to say I'm going to make a leap here that you know you can.

And I think it's fair to say I'm going to make a leap here that you know you can.

You could tell me is wrong.

You could tell me is wrong.

But I mean that sensibility makes its way into a lot of the investment decisions you guys are making and the lines of business that you go into, right, I mean, you're running a climate fund it.

But I mean that sensibility makes its way into a lot of the investment decisions you guys are making and the lines of business that you go into, right, I mean, you're running a climate fund it.

This point, there's it's no accident, yeah, that these things play through. I think we were doing ESG before it had a name in a variety of our investment memos. We always talked about the effect things would have, and we took on this question of how do you scale impact investing?

This point, there's it's no accident, yeah, that these things play through. I think we were doing ESG before it had a name in a variety of our investment memos. We always talked about the effect things would have, and we took on this question of how do you scale impact investing?

It was a really interesting question.

It was a really interesting question.

We took it on with vigor and this idea of defining climate not just as a problem but as an opportunity. As we were talking about before, this is a theme that has gone through David and through TPG for years.

We took it on with vigor and this idea of defining climate not just as a problem but as an opportunity. As we were talking about before, this is a theme that has gone through David and through TPG for years.

And so I mean from a personal perspective, how do how does it shape you to work with one person for as long as long as you did for that person to be your partner.

And so I mean from a personal perspective, how do how does it shape you to work with one person for as long as long as you did for that person to be your partner.

You meet him as a very young man.

You meet him as a very young man.

Sorry by making this too personal for you, but it's like you meet him as a very young person. He obviously shapes you in a way that almost no one else could in your professional life. And I know you must be reflecting on that a lot right now, and maybe it's too soon to ask you this question, but like, how do you how do you sort of take that all in?

Sorry by making this too personal for you, but it's like you meet him as a very young person. He obviously shapes you in a way that almost no one else could in your professional life. And I know you must be reflecting on that a lot right now, and maybe it's too soon to ask you this question, but like, how do you how do you sort of take that all in?

No, he had shaped my life in many ways. We had a very interesting partnership for a few reasons. First of all, the age difference were seventeen years different. I started working for him, and we became equal control partners when we build TPG, and so that process of becoming partners we were colleagues for thirty eight years, partners for thirty two.

No, he had shaped my life in many ways. We had a very interesting partnership for a few reasons. First of all, the age difference were seventeen years different. I started working for him, and we became equal control partners when we build TPG, and so that process of becoming partners we were colleagues for thirty eight years, partners for thirty two.

Just doesn't happen that often.

Just doesn't happen that often.

It does happen in private equity, and in some ways, one of the attributes of really strong private equity firms is strong partnerships. The strong partnerships tend to land well because I think private equity is not a one person sport. It is a team sport, and great teams, as you know, often have a partnership among their leading athletes in ways that play out over periods of time. So for me, it was a journey from a colleague to partner. I was always learning something from David, and I think he told me over the years he learned a few things from me. So that kind of constant curiosity was important, but we travel together on trips. We had lots of mutual friends who were very different people, but that partnership I think really resonated not only in the business world, but in the personal world. He was an immensely, immensely interesting person. No dinner, no flight was without fascinating conversations and usual deep laughter, and that certainly shaped me, shaped their firm, and really shaped so many in the industry that they touched.

It does happen in private equity, and in some ways, one of the attributes of really strong private equity firms is strong partnerships. The strong partnerships tend to land well because I think private equity is not a one person sport. It is a team sport, and great teams, as you know, often have a partnership among their leading athletes in ways that play out over periods of time. So for me, it was a journey from a colleague to partner. I was always learning something from David, and I think he told me over the years he learned a few things from me. So that kind of constant curiosity was important, but we travel together on trips. We had lots of mutual friends who were very different people, but that partnership I think really resonated not only in the business world, but in the personal world. He was an immensely, immensely interesting person. No dinner, no flight was without fascinating conversations and usual deep laughter, and that certainly shaped me, shaped their firm, and really shaped so many in the industry that they touched.

Yeah, and just before we leave that, I mean, I'm so interested in that because you know, there are a lot of people, you know, watching this and listening to it who will think about, you know, their own careers and the choices that they make in terms of how they choose their partners and how they create winning partnerships and business relationships, and so I just I do wonder even as you guys built like, how do you even like divide responsibility? You know, how do you figure out like you're good at this, you're good at that? I mean, you're making it up as you go along.

Yeah, and just before we leave that, I mean, I'm so interested in that because you know, there are a lot of people, you know, watching this and listening to it who will think about, you know, their own careers and the choices that they make in terms of how they choose their partners and how they create winning partnerships and business relationships, and so I just I do wonder even as you guys built like, how do you even like divide responsibility? You know, how do you figure out like you're good at this, you're good at that? I mean, you're making it up as you go along.

Presumably, Yeah, we were making up for how many years?

Presumably, Yeah, we were making up for how many years?

I think it was always division of responsibility was often was very clear, and it's because we had different skills and similar values. It was kind of clear that David loved to go to Singapore for lunch and I was coaching my kid's soccer team, right and that division kind of worked for both of us Franks, because someone had to keep the firm growing and the other deals happening if he was in Singapore. So I think it was actually very natural and David was. Many people have partnered with David in many ways, so we probably had the longest continuous partnership. But he's been a great partner to a lot of people. I think in life, if you find great partners it's a very fortunate privilege. And even if you look at the public investing in side, you know, the Munger Buffet partnership went on for forty five years. These partnerships can be very powerful in our particular business.

I think it was always division of responsibility was often was very clear, and it's because we had different skills and similar values. It was kind of clear that David loved to go to Singapore for lunch and I was coaching my kid's soccer team, right and that division kind of worked for both of us Franks, because someone had to keep the firm growing and the other deals happening if he was in Singapore. So I think it was actually very natural and David was. Many people have partnered with David in many ways, so we probably had the longest continuous partnership. But he's been a great partner to a lot of people. I think in life, if you find great partners it's a very fortunate privilege. And even if you look at the public investing in side, you know, the Munger Buffet partnership went on for forty five years. These partnerships can be very powerful in our particular business.

And I want to talk a little bit about his legacy, and part of that, I'm going to bring it back to an area I spent a lot of time is sports. You know, we talked a little bit about the Kraken, and I do think it's notable that that may be one of aside from the firm that you guys have built together, that may be one of his biggest legs. He's in part because his daughter, Samantha Holloway is now the control control ownder the Kraken. It is well known that, you know, they would like to bring basketball back to Seattle through the SuperSonics.

And I want to talk a little bit about his legacy, and part of that, I'm going to bring it back to an area I spent a lot of time is sports. You know, we talked a little bit about the Kraken, and I do think it's notable that that may be one of aside from the firm that you guys have built together, that may be one of his biggest legs. He's in part because his daughter, Samantha Holloway is now the control control ownder the Kraken. It is well known that, you know, they would like to bring basketball back to Seattle through the SuperSonics.

Talk to me.

Talk to me.

About him getting into that.

About him getting into that.

I'd love to unpack that because it was this it was this sort of tricky deal, but also something that he was very emotionally invested in.

I'd love to unpack that because it was this it was this sort of tricky deal, but also something that he was very emotionally invested in.

It felt like, yeah, it's something that he had been thinking about for a long time and for a number of years.

It felt like, yeah, it's something that he had been thinking about for a long time and for a number of years.

It was hard for us to invest.

It was hard for us to invest.

In it because of our relationship with CIA, So David had to do this separately from the firm and actually be carved off from CIA to be involved in the Kraken. And I loved how he brought the same problem solving, just absolute brilliance and creativity to solving that problem.

In it because of our relationship with CIA, So David had to do this separately from the firm and actually be carved off from CIA to be involved in the Kraken. And I loved how he brought the same problem solving, just absolute brilliance and creativity to solving that problem.

So it wasn't just about one thing sports. There's a lot of people who want to be sports owners.

So it wasn't just about one thing sports. There's a lot of people who want to be sports owners.

Yeah, it was about solving this problem for a city he loved, in a place that he admired uh and doing it in his own way. And so I think uh TPG maybe the cornerstone of his investing legacy. But I think the Kraken is certainly right up with it as as something that will have a longstanding impact.

Yeah, it was about solving this problem for a city he loved, in a place that he admired uh and doing it in his own way. And so I think uh TPG maybe the cornerstone of his investing legacy. But I think the Kraken is certainly right up with it as as something that will have a longstanding impact.

And presumably in part because you know, he brought his daughter into it, I mean, with which.

And presumably in part because you know, he brought his daughter into it, I mean, with which.

I love it.

I love it.

Sam is Sam is doing an awesome job. It's been just brilliant to watch, uh, that evolution of her partnership with her father at the Kraken, and even like, I love the name, right, I remember when we were David was naming it, you know, he was talking over options with me and as soon as he said crack and I knew he was going there.

Sam is Sam is doing an awesome job. It's been just brilliant to watch, uh, that evolution of her partnership with her father at the Kraken, and even like, I love the name, right, I remember when we were David was naming it, you know, he was talking over options with me and as soon as he said crack and I knew he was going there.

It's just it's so bondo and.

It's just it's so bondo and.

A little bit contrarian. There's no other It's like that.

A little bit contrarian. There's no other It's like that.

It wasn't going to be the Blue Sox, right, it was going to be the Kracking.

It wasn't going to be the Blue Sox, right, it was going to be the Kracking.

And so what's been you know, I mean that it's it's early days obviously in terms of you, you know, kind of coming to grips with all this. I'm sure you're hearing from lots of different people, like the what are the messages that you're getting, what are the notes you're you're hearing, the calls you're getting that may maybe surprise you a little bit.

And so what's been you know, I mean that it's it's early days obviously in terms of you, you know, kind of coming to grips with all this. I'm sure you're hearing from lots of different people, like the what are the messages that you're getting, what are the notes you're you're hearing, the calls you're getting that may maybe surprise you a little bit.

Actually, it doesn't surprise me because one thing that is clear is that David has touched so many people over the years in his inimitable style. But my phone has been lighting up from all over the world from people I haven't heard from in twenty years, people reaching out to say how much David shaped his or her career, from you know, the CEO of Goldman to the CEO of JP Morgan to the top investment partnerships around the world, top LP partnerships around the world, and the messages have been not just about him as an investor or partner, but him as a person. And I think that's one of his legacies is not only did he do different deals build a.

Actually, it doesn't surprise me because one thing that is clear is that David has touched so many people over the years in his inimitable style. But my phone has been lighting up from all over the world from people I haven't heard from in twenty years, people reaching out to say how much David shaped his or her career, from you know, the CEO of Goldman to the CEO of JP Morgan to the top investment partnerships around the world, top LP partnerships around the world, and the messages have been not just about him as an investor or partner, but him as a person. And I think that's one of his legacies is not only did he do different deals build a.

Different firm, but he almost gave license.

Different firm, but he almost gave license.

For different ways to interact in this industry in a way that has opened up. He's always been interested in people of all sorts. I mean, who else hitchhikes across Africa for a year. Imagine who you meet and how that goes. So his ability to connect with people and welcome them into the industry from all nationalities, from all backgrounds, is I think another contribution he made to the industry.

For different ways to interact in this industry in a way that has opened up. He's always been interested in people of all sorts. I mean, who else hitchhikes across Africa for a year. Imagine who you meet and how that goes. So his ability to connect with people and welcome them into the industry from all nationalities, from all backgrounds, is I think another contribution he made to the industry.

Well, as we wrap up, I've been wanting to ask you this, which is, if you had to given all these things, that all these inputs that you've got, all this experience you got, if you had to distill him down into one story that you could tell, and I'm sure you will tell over the coming weeks and months and years, what's the story?

Well, as we wrap up, I've been wanting to ask you this, which is, if you had to given all these things, that all these inputs that you've got, all this experience you got, if you had to distill him down into one story that you could tell, and I'm sure you will tell over the coming weeks and months and years, what's the story?

What's the Bondo story?

What's the Bondo story?

Oh, there's too many. Uh, you know, I think there's deal stories, and there's and there's personal stories.

Oh, there's too many. Uh, you know, I think there's deal stories, and there's and there's personal stories.

On the deal stories. Uh.

On the deal stories. Uh.

You know when the night there was one other bidder for Continental that sort of showed up and in the night before the bids were happening. Uh, that bidder was backed by Credit Lionnaise Credit and they were, you know, French bank owned by the French government, and uh we had, Uh the night before we made a deal with Air France to join the Continental Frequent fire Mile coalition, but only if Credit ly in A dropped out. So the morning of the Continental bids, we walked in with our bid and the other bidder couldn't show up because they just had their financing pull.

You know when the night there was one other bidder for Continental that sort of showed up and in the night before the bids were happening. Uh, that bidder was backed by Credit Lionnaise Credit and they were, you know, French bank owned by the French government, and uh we had, Uh the night before we made a deal with Air France to join the Continental Frequent fire Mile coalition, but only if Credit ly in A dropped out. So the morning of the Continental bids, we walked in with our bid and the other bidder couldn't show up because they just had their financing pull.

So the the the chessboard of what was.

So the the the chessboard of what was.

Going on, I think we would have won anyhow, But the chessboard of what was going on was we were playing at a different level than maybe was understood generally, and his ability to be playing on a different board than others was happened kind of over and over again. But there's many very funny quips that I can't share. But the other moment that sticks out to me personally was at his birthday party, much written about when the Rolling Stones played, which was kind of before people did these private bands like this, And the thing I remember is I stood in the back with David and he was watching out the Stones, he was watching the crowd, and he refused to have toasts at the party, and it wasn't really.

Going on, I think we would have won anyhow, But the chessboard of what was going on was we were playing at a different level than maybe was understood generally, and his ability to be playing on a different board than others was happened kind of over and over again. But there's many very funny quips that I can't share. But the other moment that sticks out to me personally was at his birthday party, much written about when the Rolling Stones played, which was kind of before people did these private bands like this, And the thing I remember is I stood in the back with David and he was watching out the Stones, he was watching the crowd, and he refused to have toasts at the party, and it wasn't really.

About his birthday.

About his birthday.

It was actually a gift from him to all the people that he invited. And that sort of generosity misconstrued a little bit outside.

It was actually a gift from him to all the people that he invited. And that sort of generosity misconstrued a little bit outside.

But that sort of.

But that sort of.

Generosity, the very bondo, very not about him but about an experience, was something I just saw over and over again.

Generosity, the very bondo, very not about him but about an experience, was something I just saw over and over again.

Thanks so much for listening to this conversation with Jim Colter, the chairman and co founder of TPG, all about his late partner David Bonderman. And if you're interested in these types of conversations, check out my show The Deal with Alex Rodriguez. I'm Jason Kelly, and this is Bloomberg

Thanks so much for listening to this conversation with Jim Colter, the chairman and co founder of TPG, all about his late partner David Bonderman. And if you're interested in these types of conversations, check out my show The Deal with Alex Rodriguez. I'm Jason Kelly, and this is Bloomberg