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Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

Welcome to our listeners and viewers worldwide. I'm here with Cheergary Gensler in his office in Washington, d C. Great to speak with you, Great to be with you.

Welcome to our listeners and viewers worldwide. I'm here with Cheergary Gensler in his office in Washington, d C. Great to speak with you, Great to be with you.

David.

David.

You've had a very active agenda during your tenure here.

You've had a very active agenda during your tenure here.

I want to get to as much of that as I can, but I want to start first just by asking you how you're feeling here with less than two weeks left in your term. You have been subject to fair amount of attacks, some vitriol. How have you processed all of that.

I want to get to as much of that as I can, but I want to start first just by asking you how you're feeling here with less than two weeks left in your term. You have been subject to fair amount of attacks, some vitriol. How have you processed all of that.

It's a great privilege to be in a role like this. I'm the thirty third chair. It's a big country. A lot of people could do this job, so I really I start with it's just such a privilege to be here, and thank you to Joe Biden for asking me to do it. But what's remarkable about this role is it oversees the one hundred and twenty trillion dollars capital market, which touches everything in our economy because you've got to raise money for most of what we do in our economy and people save. So I feel terrific, And you ask about the attacks and things like that.

It's a great privilege to be in a role like this. I'm the thirty third chair. It's a big country. A lot of people could do this job, so I really I start with it's just such a privilege to be here, and thank you to Joe Biden for asking me to do it. But what's remarkable about this role is it oversees the one hundred and twenty trillion dollars capital market, which touches everything in our economy because you've got to raise money for most of what we do in our economy and people save. So I feel terrific, And you ask about the attacks and things like that.

That's what public policy is about.

That's what public policy is about.

You walk into this central square and you debate these important things for three hundred and thirty million Americans. I've worked over the years with Hillary Clinton on a number of campaigns, and I remember Hillary saying once like, if you're not willing to be attacked, you can't go into the public square and debate policy. And so I think it's part of our great democracy.

You walk into this central square and you debate these important things for three hundred and thirty million Americans. I've worked over the years with Hillary Clinton on a number of campaigns, and I remember Hillary saying once like, if you're not willing to be attacked, you can't go into the public square and debate policy. And so I think it's part of our great democracy.

I look at who is inveighing against you and who's throwing that invective, and it's the president elect, it's the world's richest man.

I look at who is inveighing against you and who's throwing that invective, and it's the president elect, it's the world's richest man.

Does it feel.

Does it feel.

Different to you than what you, I'm sure experienced after the Global Financial Crisis when you were at the CFTC as the atmosphere. Has the environment changed for regulators like yourself, Well.

Different to you than what you, I'm sure experienced after the Global Financial Crisis when you were at the CFTC as the atmosphere. Has the environment changed for regulators like yourself, Well.

I think it does change. What we do here at this great agency is look out for every day Americans, people just trying to save for a better future, and try to move through things that help them like we've done. Like even shortening the settlement cycle from two days to one day might sound geeky behind the scenes, but it means you get your money one day faster, for instance, or getting privacy notices there was no federal rule that you needed to get a notice if your data was hacked. Then we put in place some rules to do that. So we're looking out for every day Americans, trying to lower the cost of the markets to trade stocks, to tarry de bonds. But it doesn't surprise me that then there's some in the middle of the market. They're called brokers, they're called dealers, they're called intermediary stock exchanges who they like their business model. And if we're changing the rules to benefit every day Americans, they might have thoughts on that and object and that's part of the process. But our clients, ultimately people at their kitchen tables.

I think it does change. What we do here at this great agency is look out for every day Americans, people just trying to save for a better future, and try to move through things that help them like we've done. Like even shortening the settlement cycle from two days to one day might sound geeky behind the scenes, but it means you get your money one day faster, for instance, or getting privacy notices there was no federal rule that you needed to get a notice if your data was hacked. Then we put in place some rules to do that. So we're looking out for every day Americans, trying to lower the cost of the markets to trade stocks, to tarry de bonds. But it doesn't surprise me that then there's some in the middle of the market. They're called brokers, they're called dealers, they're called intermediary stock exchanges who they like their business model. And if we're changing the rules to benefit every day Americans, they might have thoughts on that and object and that's part of the process. But our clients, ultimately people at their kitchen tables.

Let me ask you about one facet of that. On twenty million dollar, trillion dollar trillion, it's a big number of tea with the T, and that's crypto.

Let me ask you about one facet of that. On twenty million dollar, trillion dollar trillion, it's a big number of tea with the T, and that's crypto.

And you've been you've offiable point out it's a small sliver of that total multi trillion dollar package. But you came into this job. You gave a big speech in which you analogized the crypto world to the wild West. I guess that makes you the sheriff. So as you get ready to hang up your spurs, jeez, less of a wild not really belaboring the metaphor, but is it less of a wild West than it was?

And you've been you've offiable point out it's a small sliver of that total multi trillion dollar package. But you came into this job. You gave a big speech in which you analogized the crypto world to the wild West. I guess that makes you the sheriff. So as you get ready to hang up your spurs, jeez, less of a wild not really belaboring the metaphor, but is it less of a wild West than it was?

As you leave this office, My daughters if they ever watched this interview, well, we're your spurs, Dad. I think that we've done some good things. Look, I came in. My predecessor, Jake Clayton, who was in this office, had also tried to dress this new emerging part of finance. And as you say, it's less than one percent of our overall financial markets. Uh, but it it was then when Jay was trying to address it, and he brought eighty enforcement actions in this area. We've brought in about a hundred in our four years. It was consistent. It's maybe about five percent of what we do in our law enforcement. I means there's ninety five percent on f in a sense unfortunately about other things you know, scammers and fraudsters and so forth. But in this field, I it's rife with bad actors. It's it's it's and let me just split the field into two just for a minute. The public knows a lot about bitcoin, which is uh, depending upon its market value on any given day, is two thirds to eighty percent of the market value of crypto, and then there's a l everything else where some people say bitcoin and ethereum.

As you leave this office, My daughters if they ever watched this interview, well, we're your spurs, Dad. I think that we've done some good things. Look, I came in. My predecessor, Jake Clayton, who was in this office, had also tried to dress this new emerging part of finance. And as you say, it's less than one percent of our overall financial markets. Uh, but it it was then when Jay was trying to address it, and he brought eighty enforcement actions in this area. We've brought in about a hundred in our four years. It was consistent. It's maybe about five percent of what we do in our law enforcement. I means there's ninety five percent on f in a sense unfortunately about other things you know, scammers and fraudsters and so forth. But in this field, I it's rife with bad actors. It's it's it's and let me just split the field into two just for a minute. The public knows a lot about bitcoin, which is uh, depending upon its market value on any given day, is two thirds to eighty percent of the market value of crypto, and then there's a l everything else where some people say bitcoin and ethereum.

And everything else.

And everything else.

These ten or fifteen thousand projects, they're raising money from the public, and the public's investing, or they're just the public's investing hoping for a better future. I've been around finance for over four decades, and everything in the market's trade on a mixture of fundamentals and sentiment at any given time. I've never seen a field that's so much wrapped up in sentiment and not so much about fundamentals. And these ten thousand to fifteen thousand projects, many of them will not survive. They're like venture capital investments. They're not gonna survive. But they're also a fair number of small pump and dump schemes and other things in this And of course we've lived through a few years where you know, they became notorious, but they're in jail. The sambank and Freed's and the czs and the dough quons uh where tens of billions of dollars were lost by investors.

These ten or fifteen thousand projects, they're raising money from the public, and the public's investing, or they're just the public's investing hoping for a better future. I've been around finance for over four decades, and everything in the market's trade on a mixture of fundamentals and sentiment at any given time. I've never seen a field that's so much wrapped up in sentiment and not so much about fundamentals. And these ten thousand to fifteen thousand projects, many of them will not survive. They're like venture capital investments. They're not gonna survive. But they're also a fair number of small pump and dump schemes and other things in this And of course we've lived through a few years where you know, they became notorious, but they're in jail. The sambank and Freed's and the czs and the dough quons uh where tens of billions of dollars were lost by investors.

Can I ask you about those, because early on, when you talked about enforcement, you said bringing high profile.

Can I ask you about those, because early on, when you talked about enforcement, you said bringing high profile.

Cases could lead to a change in in behavior.

Cases could lead to a change in in behavior.

Are Are you satisfied that those cases has led to a change in behavior in in the space in in.

Are Are you satisfied that those cases has led to a change in behavior in in the space in in.

Particular, it's it's a field that built up around non compliance. And I'm proud of what we've done of building on what UH chair Clayton and others had done previously. I think there's still work to be done, particularly I'm i'm I'm saying about these ten or fifteen thousand alternative coins that UH there and the intermediaries themselves. I think there's still work to be done, and and I think the public is probably aware of this, and less than ten percent of the public invests in this field. I think there is feder reserve and even we've did a survey here these public figures, it's somewhere between seven and nine percent of the public should be aware of these are highly speculative, volatile investments, and they're not getting the full and fair disclosure that's appropriate. What we're about here at the Securities and Exchange Commission for ninety years is letting the public decide what they want to invest in, and secondly that the intermediaries, the brokers, the stock exchanges, the advisors are giving that advice and doing what they're doing without fraud and manipulation and so forth.

Particular, it's it's a field that built up around non compliance. And I'm proud of what we've done of building on what UH chair Clayton and others had done previously. I think there's still work to be done, particularly I'm i'm I'm saying about these ten or fifteen thousand alternative coins that UH there and the intermediaries themselves. I think there's still work to be done, and and I think the public is probably aware of this, and less than ten percent of the public invests in this field. I think there is feder reserve and even we've did a survey here these public figures, it's somewhere between seven and nine percent of the public should be aware of these are highly speculative, volatile investments, and they're not getting the full and fair disclosure that's appropriate. What we're about here at the Securities and Exchange Commission for ninety years is letting the public decide what they want to invest in, and secondly that the intermediaries, the brokers, the stock exchanges, the advisors are giving that advice and doing what they're doing without fraud and manipulation and so forth.

Settle something for me, because I think when you came into office, a lot of people looked at your immediate background, having researched a lot of digital assets, worked on them at mit, that you would be perhaps a champion of them. Has there been an evolution in the way that you approach crypto over that transition from academia to hear or while you've been people think you are somebody who's adamantly opposed.

Settle something for me, because I think when you came into office, a lot of people looked at your immediate background, having researched a lot of digital assets, worked on them at mit, that you would be perhaps a champion of them. Has there been an evolution in the way that you approach crypto over that transition from academia to hear or while you've been people think you are somebody who's adamantly opposed.

To here's the evolution.

To here's the evolution.

When you're in academia or when you're not in this job, you can study something and observe it as I did, and try to teach students what's the value proposition about this new technology, what's the value proposition of this new investment vehicles? But then when you're in this job, this is a chair of a five member commission or roughly five thousand people. That's a law enforcement agency. And so now one gets in this chair building upon my predecessor had brought eighty cases, so we brought about one hundred. And this is a field rife with challenges and non compliance with the securities laws. So sometimes people you know, you take an oath of office. You do what you can to protect the investing public.

When you're in academia or when you're not in this job, you can study something and observe it as I did, and try to teach students what's the value proposition about this new technology, what's the value proposition of this new investment vehicles? But then when you're in this job, this is a chair of a five member commission or roughly five thousand people. That's a law enforcement agency. And so now one gets in this chair building upon my predecessor had brought eighty cases, so we brought about one hundred. And this is a field rife with challenges and non compliance with the securities laws. So sometimes people you know, you take an oath of office. You do what you can to protect the investing public.

Just another question about evolution of thinking.

Just another question about evolution of thinking.

UH.

UH.

Turning to the the climate related rules that have been passed by by the SEC, some say that you fashioned yourself as kind of a climate crusader.

Turning to the the climate related rules that have been passed by by the SEC, some say that you fashioned yourself as kind of a climate crusader.

Now are they?

Now are they?

Are they wrong in that in that supposition?

Are they wrong in that in that supposition?

I haven't heard that.

I haven't heard that.

I'm a securities I I I was in Culman Sachs for eighteen years of fair a number of years ago now, and I deeply believe in markets, and I came into a role that there were some outsiders that said, use the securities laws to promote a an agenda. But we're just a securities regulator.

I'm a securities I I I was in Culman Sachs for eighteen years of fair a number of years ago now, and I deeply believe in markets, and I came into a role that there were some outsiders that said, use the securities laws to promote a an agenda. But we're just a securities regulator.

And and I deeply believe that.

And and I deeply believe that.

But what we found is that not just hundreds, but over a thousand companies were already making disclosures to their investors about climate risks. And I'm very proud of the work we did to bring some consistency in those UH. Disclosures all based in materiality, meaning that the only thing that the.

But what we found is that not just hundreds, but over a thousand companies were already making disclosures to their investors about climate risks. And I'm very proud of the work we did to bring some consistency in those UH. Disclosures all based in materiality, meaning that the only thing that the.

Various investors need to.

Various investors need to.

Look to, or would would I'm sorry, the only thing the public companies would need to do is to make disclosures about their material greenhouse gas emissions and not their supply chain, just their emissions and how they manage certain risk in that field.

Look to, or would would I'm sorry, the only thing the public companies would need to do is to make disclosures about their material greenhouse gas emissions and not their supply chain, just their emissions and how they manage certain risk in that field.

Uh.

Uh.

One interesting number of the top thousand companies in the US and the capital markets, what percentage of them do you think already make greenhouse guests disclosures.

One interesting number of the top thousand companies in the US and the capital markets, what percentage of them do you think already make greenhouse guests disclosures.

No, it is the majority, it's over.

No, it is the majority, it's over.

Sixty percent, and so so investors. We heard from not just hundreds, but thousands of investors that say they make decisions over their A material disclosures.

Sixty percent, and so so investors. We heard from not just hundreds, but thousands of investors that say they make decisions over their A material disclosures.

So our role is just to try to bring some consistency to that.

So our role is just to try to bring some consistency to that.

Chick Gant and I are going to keep talking. The full interview will be available on The Big Take podcast

Chick Gant and I are going to keep talking. The full interview will be available on The Big Take podcast