John to gets now around this table.

John to gets now around this table.

I'm really pleased to say the outgoing NATO's Secretary General Jen Steldenburg, departing the organization after a decade, Sarah's.

I'm really pleased to say the outgoing NATO's Secretary General Jen Steldenburg, departing the organization after a decade, Sarah's.

Good to see you.

Good to see you.

Thanks much for having me.

Thanks much for having me.

Thanks for Sharon what I believe is your final interview.

Thanks for Sharon what I believe is your final interview.

It is.

It is.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So you've been very kind to Bloomberg over the years, and every time we spoken to you over the last decade, you've always been generous with your time, So thank you.

So you've been very kind to Bloomberg over the years, and every time we spoken to you over the last decade, you've always been generous with your time, So thank you.

Thanks for that.

Thanks for that.

If I think back at your tenure over the last decade, I can think of two really big wake up calls.

If I think back at your tenure over the last decade, I can think of two really big wake up calls.

For the organization.

For the organization.

One was Trump being elected in twenty sixteen and really putting the foot on the throat of some of the people who were part of this organization to spend more on defense. The other was the invasion of Russia into Ukraine more recently in.

One was Trump being elected in twenty sixteen and really putting the foot on the throat of some of the people who were part of this organization to spend more on defense. The other was the invasion of Russia into Ukraine more recently in.

The last couple of years.

The last couple of years.

As you step back and think about your tenure the last decade, what stood out for you.

As you step back and think about your tenure the last decade, what stood out for you.

The most?

The most?

Of course decisive and was it an important challenge we've faced also a Russian full scale invasion of Ukraine. But you have to remember that the war in Ukraine didn't start in twenty twenty two. It started in twenty fourteen when Russia went in and took Cromea, and since then, over the last decade, NATO has implemented the biggest reinforcement or collected events because of Russia's annexation of Crimea. So when the full scale nation happened in twenty two, we were prepared. We had more forces on higher edness for the first time, but the groups in eastern partolions. So when it happened in the full scale vation, we were able to step up our support for Ukraine and increase some interpresence in the eastern potodions. So Ukraine has been that throughout my tenure, but it has gotten worse.

Of course decisive and was it an important challenge we've faced also a Russian full scale invasion of Ukraine. But you have to remember that the war in Ukraine didn't start in twenty twenty two. It started in twenty fourteen when Russia went in and took Cromea, and since then, over the last decade, NATO has implemented the biggest reinforcement or collected events because of Russia's annexation of Crimea. So when the full scale nation happened in twenty two, we were prepared. We had more forces on higher edness for the first time, but the groups in eastern partolions. So when it happened in the full scale vation, we were able to step up our support for Ukraine and increase some interpresence in the eastern potodions. So Ukraine has been that throughout my tenure, but it has gotten worse.

Let's talk about the potential path forward for Ukraine, especially given the fact that we have this US election looming over the crisis. Donald Trump was talking yesterday about Zelenski, saying that he was making nasty aspersions about him that had to do with this New Yorker article I'm sure you've seen, but he said about JD.

Let's talk about the potential path forward for Ukraine, especially given the fact that we have this US election looming over the crisis. Donald Trump was talking yesterday about Zelenski, saying that he was making nasty aspersions about him that had to do with this New Yorker article I'm sure you've seen, but he said about JD.

Vans.

Vans.

Also the fact that he went to Pennsylvania, which is a swing state in this country. Do you think Zelensky miscalculated this political situation right now in the United States.

Also the fact that he went to Pennsylvania, which is a swing state in this country. Do you think Zelensky miscalculated this political situation right now in the United States.

I'm called the install President Zelensky is ready to work with whoever is elected as president in the United States. And also know that President Zelensky worked with President Trump when he was President of the United States. And also that during that time, actually the United States increased its military support to Ukraine. It was during the Trump administration or the decision to provide lead laid javelins to Ukraine was taken. So it's not for me and it's all for President Lensky to have any opinion about who the American people should elect, but we need to work with whoever is elected to ensure continued support for Ukraine.

I'm called the install President Zelensky is ready to work with whoever is elected as president in the United States. And also know that President Zelensky worked with President Trump when he was President of the United States. And also that during that time, actually the United States increased its military support to Ukraine. It was during the Trump administration or the decision to provide lead laid javelins to Ukraine was taken. So it's not for me and it's all for President Lensky to have any opinion about who the American people should elect, but we need to work with whoever is elected to ensure continued support for Ukraine.

I guess I'm confused because there's been a change of attitude from President Zelensky. He sat down with me in July and basically said he wanted to get into rumor Trump. He wanted to see the plan Trump had when he says I have a path to victory. And now he comes here and he's kind of poking the bear what he says about his running mate. And the fact of the matter is Trump is not going to be meeting him along the sidelines of you and General Assembly, and that probably goes back to what Zelenski has said about him.

I guess I'm confused because there's been a change of attitude from President Zelensky. He sat down with me in July and basically said he wanted to get into rumor Trump. He wanted to see the plan Trump had when he says I have a path to victory. And now he comes here and he's kind of poking the bear what he says about his running mate. And the fact of the matter is Trump is not going to be meeting him along the sidelines of you and General Assembly, and that probably goes back to what Zelenski has said about him.

But you know, not for me as Sector General of NATO to try to aid to facilitate a meeting between President and Selensky and Donald Trump. What I can do is to convey to the United States, to all NATO allies that it is important that we continue to support Ukraine because this is not only about Ukraine, it's also about our own security. If we allow President Putin to win in Ukraine, it will be a strategy for Ukrainians but also dangerous for us because then the message to Preston Trump is that when he used military force, he gets what he to President Putin is that when he use military force, he gets what he wants. And that will also be followed very closely in China. So this is not only about Europe, but also about whether we should allow author Italian leaders around the world to use military force to.

But you know, not for me as Sector General of NATO to try to aid to facilitate a meeting between President and Selensky and Donald Trump. What I can do is to convey to the United States, to all NATO allies that it is important that we continue to support Ukraine because this is not only about Ukraine, it's also about our own security. If we allow President Putin to win in Ukraine, it will be a strategy for Ukrainians but also dangerous for us because then the message to Preston Trump is that when he used military force, he gets what he to President Putin is that when he use military force, he gets what he wants. And that will also be followed very closely in China. So this is not only about Europe, but also about whether we should allow author Italian leaders around the world to use military force to.

Achieve what they want.

Achieve what they want.

What I've been hearing from some of my sources in the Trump administration is that they want to do similar to what Trump did in the first round, which was push NATO Alliance personally Alliance to have more of a collective defense spending. Basically, now they would push for three percent. How would you you know? Your advice to the incoming secretary Channal on how to deal with that?

What I've been hearing from some of my sources in the Trump administration is that they want to do similar to what Trump did in the first round, which was push NATO Alliance personally Alliance to have more of a collective defense spending. Basically, now they would push for three percent. How would you you know? Your advice to the incoming secretary Channal on how to deal with that?

Well, first of all, I think we need to recognize the enormous progress European allies have met have made because back in twenty fourteen, only three allies met the guide down spending two percent of GDP on defense. This year, twenty three allies are spending two percent or more. But you also made it clear that two percent is not enough. So the good news is that we have met the two percent target, but we need to do even more because we live in a more dangerous world. And therefore we agreed at our last summit that two percent is in inimum, it's not a ceiling, it's a floor. And also have agreed in NATO new Defense Plans, which requires specific capabilities, forces readiness, and for allies to provide those forces, we have agreed that they should provide. They have to spend significantly more than two percent, whether it's two and a half or three. I will not give you a second number, but it's significantly more than two.

Well, first of all, I think we need to recognize the enormous progress European allies have met have made because back in twenty fourteen, only three allies met the guide down spending two percent of GDP on defense. This year, twenty three allies are spending two percent or more. But you also made it clear that two percent is not enough. So the good news is that we have met the two percent target, but we need to do even more because we live in a more dangerous world. And therefore we agreed at our last summit that two percent is in inimum, it's not a ceiling, it's a floor. And also have agreed in NATO new Defense Plans, which requires specific capabilities, forces readiness, and for allies to provide those forces, we have agreed that they should provide. They have to spend significantly more than two percent, whether it's two and a half or three. I will not give you a second number, but it's significantly more than two.

Do you think that NATO is significantly stronger or significantly weaker than it was when you took the office.

Do you think that NATO is significantly stronger or significantly weaker than it was when you took the office.

There's no doubt that NATO is significantly stronger. We are spending much more on the events, we have many more troops on high readiness, we have more high end capabilities. We have bad troops in these depart alliance. But the challenge is that the world is more dangerous. So the success of NATO is that when the world changes, we change, and that's exactly what they have seen.

There's no doubt that NATO is significantly stronger. We are spending much more on the events, we have many more troops on high readiness, we have more high end capabilities. We have bad troops in these depart alliance. But the challenge is that the world is more dangerous. So the success of NATO is that when the world changes, we change, and that's exactly what they have seen.

The issue is that NATO members may not agree on where the dangers are and exactly how to deal with them. How do you see NATO facing off with certain economic and potential military threats from say China and other countries where it's a little more complicated in terms of the members.

The issue is that NATO members may not agree on where the dangers are and exactly how to deal with them. How do you see NATO facing off with certain economic and potential military threats from say China and other countries where it's a little more complicated in terms of the members.

Well, we are thirty two allies, and of course sometimes it takes time to make thirty two allies representing fifty percent of the world's GDP, fifty percent of the world's minteri mighty two agree. But the good news is that, on for instance, China, we have come a very long way. Not so many years ago, NATO didn't have any unified policy on China. Now we have a very clear position that China matters for our security, that China cannot continue to enable Russia's war aggression against the Ukraine without consequences for its interest and reputation. And allies have also agreed that we need to work more closely with our partners in the Pacific, Japan and South Korea, Australia as response to what we see in China is today.

Well, we are thirty two allies, and of course sometimes it takes time to make thirty two allies representing fifty percent of the world's GDP, fifty percent of the world's minteri mighty two agree. But the good news is that, on for instance, China, we have come a very long way. Not so many years ago, NATO didn't have any unified policy on China. Now we have a very clear position that China matters for our security, that China cannot continue to enable Russia's war aggression against the Ukraine without consequences for its interest and reputation. And allies have also agreed that we need to work more closely with our partners in the Pacific, Japan and South Korea, Australia as response to what we see in China is today.

We could tell you all day, but we're running out of time, so I have to squeeze this in and it's rather selfish. Do you know a guy that might be able to help us set up the show? Take it on the road to the Ammuni Security Conference anytime? So do you know someone we might be able to cool?

We could tell you all day, but we're running out of time, so I have to squeeze this in and it's rather selfish. Do you know a guy that might be able to help us set up the show? Take it on the road to the Ammuni Security Conference anytime? So do you know someone we might be able to cool?

But you know, Livuning Security Conference is a very good platform to just go security issues. But I will not give you a specific name for it. Who can't help you without.

But you know, Livuning Security Conference is a very good platform to just go security issues. But I will not give you a specific name for it. Who can't help you without.

I'll get in touch in a number of weeks time and hopefully maybe that will change. Thank you, sir, thank you, thank you so much for everything over the last decade.

I'll get in touch in a number of weeks time and hopefully maybe that will change. Thank you, sir, thank you, thank you so much for everything over the last decade.

We appreciate it. We're going to do. Thank you.

We appreciate it. We're going to do. Thank you.

The NATO Secretary General Jen Stolenburg, there

The NATO Secretary General Jen Stolenburg, there