I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for Bloomberg News, And this is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I heard podcast. It's Monday, August one. Picture this. You're the FBI trying to track down the digital keys that will give you access to illicit or stolen crypto. You're rifling through books, paper stuffed in suitcases, You're tearing open gum wrappers. It's like something out of a movie. But in the world of crypto, these odd nooks and crannies have become totally normal places for law enforcement to look for digital passwords alone. Cops in the U S and the UK sees billions of dollars in crypto assets from various different criminal busts. With so much money on the line, enforced agencies around the world have had to learn and learn quickly how to spot these digital assets and seize them from accused criminals. Today, I'm joined by Bloomberg reporters Ellen Milligan. They are spending all this taxpayer money to train these police officers in crypto, and then they're losing them. And David Vorriacos while the crypto was in the possession of the US government stole it from right under their noses. To discuss how the seizures of digital assets are transforming policing policies and protocols around the world. Ellen David, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having us. We're going to talk about something kind of weird, which is how do police officers sees imaginary money? And I don't just mean imaginary in the sense of contested valuation. I mean imaginary as in not cash, not physical, not things that you can sort of wrap your head around. You know, people are breaking down the door and they're like, freeze and we're gonna take all your stuff. You have been writing about what happens when cops sees crypto. Tell us more about what that's like. Well, police traditionally have sees physical items like jewelry, cash, cars, boats, planes, and with crypto, they have to know that it's there, and they have to be educated enough about the process to understand that it has value and there are are unusual ways to access it. And so that's what we wrote about. The police around the world are educating themselves on what crypto is and how to access it. Then once they get it, how they store it and how they sell it and ellen what does that look like. Well, really, there's a few different elements to this. Like David said, there's the seizing of the crypto and discovering it, which is easier said than done, because often there's not a physical element to crypto. Sometimes there is like kind of hardware device that crypto wallets kept on or something like that, but often these are digital assets, and to discover them and then to seize them, you need a seed phrase that accesses the crypto wallet. So even if you're holding a keep key device for example, police won't know how much bitcoin or another cryptocurrency is held on there until they can access it using this kind of password. And then they're storing it once they've seized it. How do they keep this asset safe often for years while you go through a criminal trial and then a forfeiture order. Um, there's real security issues with hacks for example, but also there's you know, in some cases there have been corrupt police officers who have taken it for themselves. Um. And then the last element is how you release that that cryptocurrency, UM, if you give it back to victims or what value you give it back to victims if the state keeps it. These are the questions that law enforcement has been grappling with. And what David and I really discovered is there's no standardized procedure of the way that people do this. Everyone, as in any of the parts, like each one is idiosyncratic exactly, and every different law agency around the world, and different law agencies within the same countries do it differently. And the police, like the rest of the world when it comes to crypto, have had to learn this as they go along, and inevitably mistakes have been made along the way, and they're still grappling with this. So you mentioned kind of three elements, each of which sounds hilariously complicated. So let's let's take one of each one in turn. First of all, is the the identify kitian, right, like, something suspicious is happening. We think that's a suspicious things in crypto. We've figured out that that exists. What are the steps involved in Okay, we think that this is suspicious. We have, you know, good cause we have all the paperwork, etcetera that's required. How do they even get those passwords in the first place. Well, in identifying the suspicious crypto, they can see the movement of crypto on the blockchain. That is a public ledger ledger that they can see, and they can. What they must first do is trace it to criminal activity UH. And once they've traced it to criminal activity, they can then get a court order two seize wallets that are associated with UM, say stolen crypto. At that point they can They cannot actually access those wallets without the seed recovery phrases, and they can come in different ways. They may be written on slips of paper, They may get it from UM inside writers who are familiar with it. But if they do not have those seed recovery phrases, they can't. The police cannot access the crypto, so they can't say compel and exchange to have that crypto over to them. There's a case UM that's pending in federal court in Washington in which UM, a guy named Gary Harmon from Akron, Ohio, UM is alleged to have stolen crypto right from out under the noses of the Internal Revenue Service, which had seized crypto from Gary's brother Larry Harmon, who pleaded guilty UM two charges associated with running a crypto mixer and helping to obscure the identity of crypto, and the federal government alleges that Gary Harmon, while the crypto was in the possession of the U. S Government, stole it from right under their noses and has a value of many millions of dollars m. He's scheduled to go to trial early next year, but there have been negotiations that have been spelled out in court papers in which uh, the federal government just wants the seed recovery phrase so they can have the crypto, and Gary Harmon's lawyers say that's essentially tantamount to him admitting he committed the crime. Interesting, so all of the big parts of jurisprudence that people might be familiar with now being applied to the slightly more chaotic entities involved in crypto. That sounds like fun. Ellen, you mentioned that that the second part of this complex thing around storage. This seems to be part of the problem the David is describing if if another entity can just be like, nope, that's mine and take it once that crypto has been seized by the government or by the police, Like, what's going on there? What are those fail safes? Exactly? And um, a lot of these cases have come out of like the teen time where there was kind of the last big spike in crypto and then crashed before before spike UM, and a lot of those cases came out of hacks, and that just shows you even if the police are holding it um and storing this crypto in their own internal system or outsource system, there's still a danger that that could be hacked. And when you've got cases like the bit for next case that that David spoke about, I mean, the whole world knows how much UM that this law enforcement agency has ceased, and it becomes very vulnerable, vulnerable because of that. I spoke to a small police force in southern England for this story. They stumbled across crypto for the first time accidentally really in twenty seventeen. So this was a kidnapping case UM where a guy was kidnapped. Turned out his house was a cannabis farm. So they did some digging around and they found this key key device which had a notepad attached to it with two seed phrases and it had nine hundred grand in bitcoin I think on it. And so what police did is that there was no precedent for this. They had no idea what to do. Most of them didn't really know what crypto was. They bought their own keep key device and they transferred UM the bitcoin from his wallet to their wallet, their crypto wallet, and then they kept this keep key device and the seed phrases in a safe and only to hang on like a physical a physical safe in the police station. And I need two policemen had access to the to the safe. And that's because in the silk Row case that David referred to, UM, there two police officers ran off in that case in the US with some of the money that they were storing UM, and so there was a you the police were very worried about corrupt police officers, but also about losing losing the money. So that's how they did it. And then UM they eventually sold it to a trusted exchange. Now they don't do that anymore, not surprisingly because it is very dangerous to keep such millions of dollars in cryptus in a mini like small police station in southern England. It's ridiculous now, UM, but these are the kinds of ways that they would do it as they were learning on the job. And I mean now what they do and what most UK law enforcement agencies do, which is they have a UM they outsource it to a company called Comani, which is backed by a Ledger and others, and it's they've got their own secure, high tech like system of doing what they say. You know, I guess time will time will tell. We'll be right back with more from Bloomberg reporters David vore Yachos and Ellen Milligan on how law enforcement is keeping up with this new digital to mention of financial crime. I want to push on something that you're saying here about. You know, they tried some stuff, the stuff didn't necessarily work. Now they may be getting better at it. How are they getting better? Like where are they finding people? You've mentioned outsourcing, but they obviously need police officers who are themselves trained in knowing what to do. What has that process been like? So in the UK UM the police lobbied the government, the Home Office UM for funding to train about two fifty officers around the country in how to investigate sees and realize the value of these assets. They were dubbed crypto tactical advisors and I think one or two from every force around the country was trained in this and that really helped them, and then they did a public procurement process UM to outsource this, and I know that that's been done in the US less successfully UM, which David can tell you about. But actually the trouble that they're having now is UM they've lost a number of these crypto tactical advisors to coin based chain analysts, these firms who can triple their pay. So that's something they're really struggling with is they are spending all this taxpayer money to train these police officers in crypto and then they're losing them to these firms who can pay them far more. So let me just make sure I'm understanding this. I a US taxpayer, have nominally contributed to somebody working for coin base right now essentially potentially I as a UK taxpayer definitely UM. In the US I mean, the FBI and the Internal Revenue Service have some extremely talented investigators. They have a very large databases at their access which are able to they're able to use to triangulate to figure out who owns a wallet because they can follow the movement of crypto across the blockchain in ways that people can't do it UM who have only public access, and they also work with firms like ch Analysis, which um Ellen had mentioned, to help them put together who owns, you know, disputed wallets. And I would also say that the government is looking to privatize the storage and sale of seized crypto assets. The Justice Department, through the marshals has had sort of mixed success with that. Marshals used to auction crypto themselves and they stopped in They were trying to hire an outside firm and the two firms that they had settled on both were disqualified because they were too big under the the regulations, And so the martials are doing it themselves, but they're looking for a firm outside to do it for them. And Ellen this is related to the third part of that complex tree, right, which is the distribution once some sort of judgment has been rendered on on either the crypto or the alleged criminal involved. Yeah, this is almost the most complicated part because there was no legal precedent for for this. And what a court does when, for example, it finds someone guilty, there's a forfeiture proceeding UM that happens later on and often this happens years after UM. And what's the forfeiture proceeding UM. In the UK you have the Proceeds of Crime Act, and this is a twenty year old act. And at the end of the case, when someone's found guilty and sent to jail within a year, there's usually court hearing where judge will decide the seat what to do with the seized assets, whether the criminal can keep some of them, whether they forfeit them um and also how whether they stay with the state, whether they have to be distributed to victims. For example, the trouble that this police force had in the case I was talking about earlier was this law was twenty years old when crypto didn't exist, so they had to go to a judge and convince them that this is an asset. The most valuable asset in the case it was. They came across cash about two hundred grand in cash, watches, artwork, gold, but the crypto was the most valuable asset. The other complication, and we've seen that even more so, is that crypto will be a much different price than it was when they seized it. And and and the good thing that police have had up until this year was it ballooned in price, so either the state or victim got quite a good deal out of it. And I think what police are now really grappling with is actually that that crypto that they've been storing for so long has actually fallen in price now quite a lot, what actually quite a lot? And at what point do they sell it? They're confined by the law, but at what point do they convert that? Do they convert it before and they forfeit? It's it's really complicated, and it's really those kinds of questions are actually outside the law, and it's about instinct or mist and David, is it similar in the US? In the US, assets can be forfeited when someone is convicted of a crime, but they're seized before someone is convicted of a crime, so they may sit there for a year or two, three four years while someone is going through the judicial process, and the government cannot sell those crypto assets until after as an order from the judge saying it's okay to um to liquidate this. I was going to say, there's an interesting case in San Francisco where someone stole sixty thousand, three hundred seventy bitcoin from the Silk Road site in November of It was worth a billion dollars that then went up a great deal more than that, and it's fallen since then. But there's someone referred to only as individual X who agreed to forfeit it, and so he's not he or she is not contesting ownership. Um. But there are a bunch of other people who are putting claims in saying well, they had some of the crypto that was in dispute and um. So the judge in San Francisco is ruling on that dispute and he's hearing testimony and reading reports from experts on both sides, and in every case so far he's ruled for the government. And a couple of the people who say that, um, some of the crypto is there's have appealed it and the so it has to be adjudicated at the district court level and the appellate court level before they can go ahead and sell all of the crypto, which is very valuable. And it sounds like it's going to take a long time. It has taken almost two years so far. It probably take I would guess another year or so, but then I assume they're going to go ahead and sell it. Wow. Well, thank you both for joining us on this. Frankly, fascinating episode. I really appreciate you both taking the time. Thank you so much. Thank you Ellen, and thank you David. You can find more of their reporting on the Bloomberg Terminal, on Bloomberg dot com, and on Twitter. Ellen is at Ellen A. Milligan That's m I L L I G A N. And David is at David Voiacos That's David V O R E A c O s. On the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto, one of the most interesting conversations in crypto right now is all about definitions, and especially the definition of a so called security Who betters to tackle this from Bloomberg ompinion columnist Matt Levine, a former practicing lawyer and investment banker who has written extensively about securities, securities law, inside of trading, all the things that are very much topical right now. You'll also hear highlights from Matt's interview Sam bankmun Freed at the recent Bloomberg Crypto Suwhach in New York. This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For more shows from I Heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions or suggestions for the show to Crypto at bloomberg dot net or find us on Twitter. We're at Crypto m. The supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky ver Galina. Our senior producer is Janet Babin. Our producer is Sharon Burriro. Our associate producers of Sanam Siddiki and Moses and m Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidron. I'm Stacy Marie Schmal. We'll be back tomorrow.

I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for Bloomberg News, And this is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I heard podcast. It's Monday, August one. Picture this. You're the FBI trying to track down the digital keys that will give you access to illicit or stolen crypto. You're rifling through books, paper stuffed in suitcases, You're tearing open gum wrappers. It's like something out of a movie. But in the world of crypto, these odd nooks and crannies have become totally normal places for law enforcement to look for digital passwords alone. Cops in the U S and the UK sees billions of dollars in crypto assets from various different criminal busts. With so much money on the line, enforced agencies around the world have had to learn and learn quickly how to spot these digital assets and seize them from accused criminals. Today, I'm joined by Bloomberg reporters Ellen Milligan. They are spending all this taxpayer money to train these police officers in crypto, and then they're losing them. And David Vorriacos while the crypto was in the possession of the US government stole it from right under their noses. To discuss how the seizures of digital assets are transforming policing policies and protocols around the world. Ellen David, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having us. We're going to talk about something kind of weird, which is how do police officers sees imaginary money? And I don't just mean imaginary in the sense of contested valuation. I mean imaginary as in not cash, not physical, not things that you can sort of wrap your head around. You know, people are breaking down the door and they're like, freeze and we're gonna take all your stuff. You have been writing about what happens when cops sees crypto. Tell us more about what that's like. Well, police traditionally have sees physical items like jewelry, cash, cars, boats, planes, and with crypto, they have to know that it's there, and they have to be educated enough about the process to understand that it has value and there are are unusual ways to access it. And so that's what we wrote about. The police around the world are educating themselves on what crypto is and how to access it. Then once they get it, how they store it and how they sell it and ellen what does that look like. Well, really, there's a few different elements to this. Like David said, there's the seizing of the crypto and discovering it, which is easier said than done, because often there's not a physical element to crypto. Sometimes there is like kind of hardware device that crypto wallets kept on or something like that, but often these are digital assets, and to discover them and then to seize them, you need a seed phrase that accesses the crypto wallet. So even if you're holding a keep key device for example, police won't know how much bitcoin or another cryptocurrency is held on there until they can access it using this kind of password. And then they're storing it once they've seized it. How do they keep this asset safe often for years while you go through a criminal trial and then a forfeiture order. Um, there's real security issues with hacks for example, but also there's you know, in some cases there have been corrupt police officers who have taken it for themselves. Um. And then the last element is how you release that that cryptocurrency, UM, if you give it back to victims or what value you give it back to victims if the state keeps it. These are the questions that law enforcement has been grappling with. And what David and I really discovered is there's no standardized procedure of the way that people do this. Everyone, as in any of the parts, like each one is idiosyncratic exactly, and every different law agency around the world, and different law agencies within the same countries do it differently. And the police, like the rest of the world when it comes to crypto, have had to learn this as they go along, and inevitably mistakes have been made along the way, and they're still grappling with this. So you mentioned kind of three elements, each of which sounds hilariously complicated. So let's let's take one of each one in turn. First of all, is the the identify kitian, right, like, something suspicious is happening. We think that's a suspicious things in crypto. We've figured out that that exists. What are the steps involved in Okay, we think that this is suspicious. We have, you know, good cause we have all the paperwork, etcetera that's required. How do they even get those passwords in the first place. Well, in identifying the suspicious crypto, they can see the movement of crypto on the blockchain. That is a public ledger ledger that they can see, and they can. What they must first do is trace it to criminal activity UH. And once they've traced it to criminal activity, they can then get a court order two seize wallets that are associated with UM, say stolen crypto. At that point they can They cannot actually access those wallets without the seed recovery phrases, and they can come in different ways. They may be written on slips of paper, They may get it from UM inside writers who are familiar with it. But if they do not have those seed recovery phrases, they can't. The police cannot access the crypto, so they can't say compel and exchange to have that crypto over to them. There's a case UM that's pending in federal court in Washington in which UM, a guy named Gary Harmon from Akron, Ohio, UM is alleged to have stolen crypto right from out under the noses of the Internal Revenue Service, which had seized crypto from Gary's brother Larry Harmon, who pleaded guilty UM two charges associated with running a crypto mixer and helping to obscure the identity of crypto, and the federal government alleges that Gary Harmon, while the crypto was in the possession of the U. S Government, stole it from right under their noses and has a value of many millions of dollars m. He's scheduled to go to trial early next year, but there have been negotiations that have been spelled out in court papers in which uh, the federal government just wants the seed recovery phrase so they can have the crypto, and Gary Harmon's lawyers say that's essentially tantamount to him admitting he committed the crime. Interesting, so all of the big parts of jurisprudence that people might be familiar with now being applied to the slightly more chaotic entities involved in crypto. That sounds like fun. Ellen, you mentioned that that the second part of this complex thing around storage. This seems to be part of the problem the David is describing if if another entity can just be like, nope, that's mine and take it once that crypto has been seized by the government or by the police, Like, what's going on there? What are those fail safes? Exactly? And um, a lot of these cases have come out of like the teen time where there was kind of the last big spike in crypto and then crashed before before spike UM, and a lot of those cases came out of hacks, and that just shows you even if the police are holding it um and storing this crypto in their own internal system or outsource system, there's still a danger that that could be hacked. And when you've got cases like the bit for next case that that David spoke about, I mean, the whole world knows how much UM that this law enforcement agency has ceased, and it becomes very vulnerable, vulnerable because of that. I spoke to a small police force in southern England for this story. They stumbled across crypto for the first time accidentally really in twenty seventeen. So this was a kidnapping case UM where a guy was kidnapped. Turned out his house was a cannabis farm. So they did some digging around and they found this key key device which had a notepad attached to it with two seed phrases and it had nine hundred grand in bitcoin I think on it. And so what police did is that there was no precedent for this. They had no idea what to do. Most of them didn't really know what crypto was. They bought their own keep key device and they transferred UM the bitcoin from his wallet to their wallet, their crypto wallet, and then they kept this keep key device and the seed phrases in a safe and only to hang on like a physical a physical safe in the police station. And I need two policemen had access to the to the safe. And that's because in the silk Row case that David referred to, UM, there two police officers ran off in that case in the US with some of the money that they were storing UM, and so there was a you the police were very worried about corrupt police officers, but also about losing losing the money. So that's how they did it. And then UM they eventually sold it to a trusted exchange. Now they don't do that anymore, not surprisingly because it is very dangerous to keep such millions of dollars in cryptus in a mini like small police station in southern England. It's ridiculous now, UM, but these are the kinds of ways that they would do it as they were learning on the job. And I mean now what they do and what most UK law enforcement agencies do, which is they have a UM they outsource it to a company called Comani, which is backed by a Ledger and others, and it's they've got their own secure, high tech like system of doing what they say. You know, I guess time will time will tell. We'll be right back with more from Bloomberg reporters David vore Yachos and Ellen Milligan on how law enforcement is keeping up with this new digital to mention of financial crime. I want to push on something that you're saying here about. You know, they tried some stuff, the stuff didn't necessarily work. Now they may be getting better at it. How are they getting better? Like where are they finding people? You've mentioned outsourcing, but they obviously need police officers who are themselves trained in knowing what to do. What has that process been like? So in the UK UM the police lobbied the government, the Home Office UM for funding to train about two fifty officers around the country in how to investigate sees and realize the value of these assets. They were dubbed crypto tactical advisors and I think one or two from every force around the country was trained in this and that really helped them, and then they did a public procurement process UM to outsource this, and I know that that's been done in the US less successfully UM, which David can tell you about. But actually the trouble that they're having now is UM they've lost a number of these crypto tactical advisors to coin based chain analysts, these firms who can triple their pay. So that's something they're really struggling with is they are spending all this taxpayer money to train these police officers in crypto and then they're losing them to these firms who can pay them far more. So let me just make sure I'm understanding this. I a US taxpayer, have nominally contributed to somebody working for coin base right now essentially potentially I as a UK taxpayer definitely UM. In the US I mean, the FBI and the Internal Revenue Service have some extremely talented investigators. They have a very large databases at their access which are able to they're able to use to triangulate to figure out who owns a wallet because they can follow the movement of crypto across the blockchain in ways that people can't do it UM who have only public access, and they also work with firms like ch Analysis, which um Ellen had mentioned, to help them put together who owns, you know, disputed wallets. And I would also say that the government is looking to privatize the storage and sale of seized crypto assets. The Justice Department, through the marshals has had sort of mixed success with that. Marshals used to auction crypto themselves and they stopped in They were trying to hire an outside firm and the two firms that they had settled on both were disqualified because they were too big under the the regulations, And so the martials are doing it themselves, but they're looking for a firm outside to do it for them. And Ellen this is related to the third part of that complex tree, right, which is the distribution once some sort of judgment has been rendered on on either the crypto or the alleged criminal involved. Yeah, this is almost the most complicated part because there was no legal precedent for for this. And what a court does when, for example, it finds someone guilty, there's a forfeiture proceeding UM that happens later on and often this happens years after UM. And what's the forfeiture proceeding UM. In the UK you have the Proceeds of Crime Act, and this is a twenty year old act. And at the end of the case, when someone's found guilty and sent to jail within a year, there's usually court hearing where judge will decide the seat what to do with the seized assets, whether the criminal can keep some of them, whether they forfeit them um and also how whether they stay with the state, whether they have to be distributed to victims. For example, the trouble that this police force had in the case I was talking about earlier was this law was twenty years old when crypto didn't exist, so they had to go to a judge and convince them that this is an asset. The most valuable asset in the case it was. They came across cash about two hundred grand in cash, watches, artwork, gold, but the crypto was the most valuable asset. The other complication, and we've seen that even more so, is that crypto will be a much different price than it was when they seized it. And and and the good thing that police have had up until this year was it ballooned in price, so either the state or victim got quite a good deal out of it. And I think what police are now really grappling with is actually that that crypto that they've been storing for so long has actually fallen in price now quite a lot, what actually quite a lot? And at what point do they sell it? They're confined by the law, but at what point do they convert that? Do they convert it before and they forfeit? It's it's really complicated, and it's really those kinds of questions are actually outside the law, and it's about instinct or mist and David, is it similar in the US? In the US, assets can be forfeited when someone is convicted of a crime, but they're seized before someone is convicted of a crime, so they may sit there for a year or two, three four years while someone is going through the judicial process, and the government cannot sell those crypto assets until after as an order from the judge saying it's okay to um to liquidate this. I was going to say, there's an interesting case in San Francisco where someone stole sixty thousand, three hundred seventy bitcoin from the Silk Road site in November of It was worth a billion dollars that then went up a great deal more than that, and it's fallen since then. But there's someone referred to only as individual X who agreed to forfeit it, and so he's not he or she is not contesting ownership. Um. But there are a bunch of other people who are putting claims in saying well, they had some of the crypto that was in dispute and um. So the judge in San Francisco is ruling on that dispute and he's hearing testimony and reading reports from experts on both sides, and in every case so far he's ruled for the government. And a couple of the people who say that, um, some of the crypto is there's have appealed it and the so it has to be adjudicated at the district court level and the appellate court level before they can go ahead and sell all of the crypto, which is very valuable. And it sounds like it's going to take a long time. It has taken almost two years so far. It probably take I would guess another year or so, but then I assume they're going to go ahead and sell it. Wow. Well, thank you both for joining us on this. Frankly, fascinating episode. I really appreciate you both taking the time. Thank you so much. Thank you Ellen, and thank you David. You can find more of their reporting on the Bloomberg Terminal, on Bloomberg dot com, and on Twitter. Ellen is at Ellen A. Milligan That's m I L L I G A N. And David is at David Voiacos That's David V O R E A c O s. On the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto, one of the most interesting conversations in crypto right now is all about definitions, and especially the definition of a so called security Who betters to tackle this from Bloomberg ompinion columnist Matt Levine, a former practicing lawyer and investment banker who has written extensively about securities, securities law, inside of trading, all the things that are very much topical right now. You'll also hear highlights from Matt's interview Sam bankmun Freed at the recent Bloomberg Crypto Suwhach in New York. This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For more shows from I Heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions or suggestions for the show to Crypto at bloomberg dot net or find us on Twitter. We're at Crypto m. The supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky ver Galina. Our senior producer is Janet Babin. Our producer is Sharon Burriro. Our associate producers of Sanam Siddiki and Moses and m Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidron. I'm Stacy Marie Schmal. We'll be back tomorrow.