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This is Bloomberg business Week Daily reporting from the magazine that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies, and trends shaping today's complex economy, plus global business finance and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg Business Weekdaily Podcast with Carol Masser and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio.

This is Bloomberg business Week Daily reporting from the magazine that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies, and trends shaping today's complex economy, plus global business finance and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg Business Weekdaily Podcast with Carol Masser and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio.

Let's get to something that we really got into, our started to get into yesterday, as President Trump appeared to invent a new weapon of economics state craft by threatening what he dubbed secondary tariffs on countries that buy oil from Venezuela to choke off its oil trade with other nations with moron the what, where, when and why with US as Bloomberg News US Treasury reporter Dan Flatley, he's out there in a Washington, DC beer. All right, Dan, what exactly do we know about possible secondary tariffs? And why are they kind of secondary tariffs?

Let's get to something that we really got into, our started to get into yesterday, as President Trump appeared to invent a new weapon of economics state craft by threatening what he dubbed secondary tariffs on countries that buy oil from Venezuela to choke off its oil trade with other nations with moron the what, where, when and why with US as Bloomberg News US Treasury reporter Dan Flatley, he's out there in a Washington, DC beer. All right, Dan, what exactly do we know about possible secondary tariffs? And why are they kind of secondary tariffs?

Yeah?

Yeah?

No, it's interesting. So it appears that Trump has sort of taken this idea of secondary sanctions. It's been around for a while, and his sort of fondness for tariffs and kind of combined the two. And it's understandable if you look at it from Trump's perspective. He's talked for the last several months about how sanctions could hurt the US dollar, and you know how he wants to protect the US dollar, and he's certainly made no secret about his fondness for tariffs, and so what he's kind of come up with here, and we're still trying to understand some of the details here, is essentially an idea to use tariffs as a sanction. And one of the features that tariffs as a sanction have or has that sanctions don't have is the ability to sort of ramp them up and ramp them down depending on how the target nation is responding. So if Trump doesn't get what he wants out of Venezuela, he could take them up to thirty percent or forty percent. If things look like they're improving and he's getting what he wants, he could reduce them. So it's sort of a combination of what he has talked about as his favorite word in the dictionary, this very powerful tool the tariff uh with with sanctions, and more traditional kind of use of sanctions. So you know, it's it's it's it's certainly interesting, and I think, just to you know, kind of bring it all together, that a lot of this is aimed at China because China is one of the big buyers of Venezuelan oil, so you know, it kind of fits into that whole trade discussion.

No, it's interesting. So it appears that Trump has sort of taken this idea of secondary sanctions. It's been around for a while, and his sort of fondness for tariffs and kind of combined the two. And it's understandable if you look at it from Trump's perspective. He's talked for the last several months about how sanctions could hurt the US dollar, and you know how he wants to protect the US dollar, and he's certainly made no secret about his fondness for tariffs, and so what he's kind of come up with here, and we're still trying to understand some of the details here, is essentially an idea to use tariffs as a sanction. And one of the features that tariffs as a sanction have or has that sanctions don't have is the ability to sort of ramp them up and ramp them down depending on how the target nation is responding. So if Trump doesn't get what he wants out of Venezuela, he could take them up to thirty percent or forty percent. If things look like they're improving and he's getting what he wants, he could reduce them. So it's sort of a combination of what he has talked about as his favorite word in the dictionary, this very powerful tool the tariff uh with with sanctions, and more traditional kind of use of sanctions. So you know, it's it's it's it's certainly interesting, and I think, just to you know, kind of bring it all together, that a lot of this is aimed at China because China is one of the big buyers of Venezuelan oil, so you know, it kind of fits into that whole trade discussion.

Well that's that's where I wanted to get because we said that it's on countries that buy oil from Venezuela to choke off it's oil trade with other nations.

Well that's that's where I wanted to get because we said that it's on countries that buy oil from Venezuela to choke off it's oil trade with other nations.

It's really just about China, right, Yeah, I mean I think that a lot of you know, folks that have reached out to me in the UH, in the you know, since the story went out, we're kind of making that point that this is really about China and the Chinese UH. Some Chinese officials did respond to the story and oppose the use of what they call or characterize as extra territorial use of US economic statecraft tools like sanctions and tariffs and things like that. And so basically what we know at this point is Trump has imposed successive rounds of ten percent, two successive rounds of excuse me, tariffs of ten percent each on China. So we're at twenty percent right now. And if these tariffs were to go into effect, these secondary tariffs, then we'd be looking at potentially an additional twenty five percent on top of that, So you know, we're talking about forty five percent tariffs on Chinese goods and services potentially. But you know, we still are kind of sorting through some of those details here, and of course, all of this stuff is very much subject to change, depending on how the government in Venezuela responds, what Trump thinks he's getting out of them, and all of that. So you know, it's it's like many of the things that have been rolled out in the last couple of months, you know, it's all kind of subject to change.

It's really just about China, right, Yeah, I mean I think that a lot of you know, folks that have reached out to me in the UH, in the you know, since the story went out, we're kind of making that point that this is really about China and the Chinese UH. Some Chinese officials did respond to the story and oppose the use of what they call or characterize as extra territorial use of US economic statecraft tools like sanctions and tariffs and things like that. And so basically what we know at this point is Trump has imposed successive rounds of ten percent, two successive rounds of excuse me, tariffs of ten percent each on China. So we're at twenty percent right now. And if these tariffs were to go into effect, these secondary tariffs, then we'd be looking at potentially an additional twenty five percent on top of that, So you know, we're talking about forty five percent tariffs on Chinese goods and services potentially. But you know, we still are kind of sorting through some of those details here, and of course, all of this stuff is very much subject to change, depending on how the government in Venezuela responds, what Trump thinks he's getting out of them, and all of that. So you know, it's it's like many of the things that have been rolled out in the last couple of months, you know, it's all kind of subject to change.

How is this enforceable, Dan, Well, it's a good question.

How is this enforceable, Dan, Well, it's a good question.

You know, sanctions are primarily enforced really by the banks and the big financial institutions who safeguard there the channels that are used to uh transmit money and other forms of transactions under a fear of penalties big finds and stuff like that imposed by the US government. Secondary tariffs would in theory be potentially imposed or or enforced by a similar mechanism, but it would have to be kind of set up in a new form because this has never really been tried before. So I think that all of this, all of these details are sort of things that will have to be ironed out. But again, you know, this is assuming that they ultimately go into effect as as announced.

You know, sanctions are primarily enforced really by the banks and the big financial institutions who safeguard there the channels that are used to uh transmit money and other forms of transactions under a fear of penalties big finds and stuff like that imposed by the US government. Secondary tariffs would in theory be potentially imposed or or enforced by a similar mechanism, but it would have to be kind of set up in a new form because this has never really been tried before. So I think that all of this, all of these details are sort of things that will have to be ironed out. But again, you know, this is assuming that they ultimately go into effect as as announced.

I think about kind of longer term in terms of the implications. Can we expect some kind of retaliation? I'm curious how we are kind of gaming out what we might get then from China.

I think about kind of longer term in terms of the implications. Can we expect some kind of retaliation? I'm curious how we are kind of gaming out what we might get then from China.

Yeah, it's interesting. I spoke last night with somebody who worked in the first Trump and illustration who raised this point, which is, if secondary tariffs are used more frequently, it does kind of give other countries the option of using tariffs in retaliation for the secondary tariffs, which they don't necessarily have in the same way with sanctions. So there's there's a retaliatory element to this that becomes more operative or whatever you want to call it with tariffs than might be the case with sanctions. So that is kind of an interesting wrinkle in all of this, and so we'll have to kind of see how this plays out.

Yeah, it's interesting. I spoke last night with somebody who worked in the first Trump and illustration who raised this point, which is, if secondary tariffs are used more frequently, it does kind of give other countries the option of using tariffs in retaliation for the secondary tariffs, which they don't necessarily have in the same way with sanctions. So there's there's a retaliatory element to this that becomes more operative or whatever you want to call it with tariffs than might be the case with sanctions. So that is kind of an interesting wrinkle in all of this, and so we'll have to kind of see how this plays out.

I mean, dan tariffs makes so much sense for the United States, be it President Trump or somebody else, because we buy so much. Is that also fair in terms of how we think about this, and this is why maybe it's making it all so uncomfortable globally, we buy so much stuff.

I mean, dan tariffs makes so much sense for the United States, be it President Trump or somebody else, because we buy so much. Is that also fair in terms of how we think about this, and this is why maybe it's making it all so uncomfortable globally, we buy so much stuff.

Yeah, it's a great point. I mean, even myra In, the President's chief of the Council of Economic Advisors, made this point yesterday when he was here speaking with my colleague Salaia Mosen about the fact that the US does buy so much from other countries and so we do have a point of leverage there. I think what Trump has kind of identified as well is that, you know, even if these tariffs don't work, if they don't have the intended effect like a sanction, might you still get some revenue in theory from the tariffs themselves. So it's kind of a win win situation in his mind. So I definitely think that gives the US some leverage, but it does potentially have some unintended consequences, as we were talking about with the retaliatory terifts.

Yeah, it's a great point. I mean, even myra In, the President's chief of the Council of Economic Advisors, made this point yesterday when he was here speaking with my colleague Salaia Mosen about the fact that the US does buy so much from other countries and so we do have a point of leverage there. I think what Trump has kind of identified as well is that, you know, even if these tariffs don't work, if they don't have the intended effect like a sanction, might you still get some revenue in theory from the tariffs themselves. So it's kind of a win win situation in his mind. So I definitely think that gives the US some leverage, but it does potentially have some unintended consequences, as we were talking about with the retaliatory terifts.

One last question, Dan, so again another reason for us all to focus on April second next week?

One last question, Dan, so again another reason for us all to focus on April second next week?

Yes, absolutely, I mean April second is, as Trump has described it, liberation Day. So we're expecting some more tariffs, some reciprocal tariffs on April second. There's been a lot of activity behind the scenes, and my colleagues have done some great reporting on this about how within the administration there's sort of the hawks, the trade hawks, and some people who are more of a moderating influence that are all kind of trying to make sure that this works in the way that it's intended. And just by sort of doing that and by sort of following the letter of the law, by making sure that you're on solid legal footing, it does appear to have somewhat of a potentially moderating effect on the tariffs themselves, because you want to make sure that when you put tariffs in place, that they stick, that they work, and that they're not subject to legal challenges and other things like that. So that does kind of appear to be limiting the scope of maybe some of the maximalist tariffs that we were expecting a month or two ago. But you know, caveat empdor Trump could you know, with his the authorities that he has impose still very stiff tariffs, you know, basically you know, on his own discretion, at his own discretion, And that is something that I think still has markets a little.

Yes, absolutely, I mean April second is, as Trump has described it, liberation Day. So we're expecting some more tariffs, some reciprocal tariffs on April second. There's been a lot of activity behind the scenes, and my colleagues have done some great reporting on this about how within the administration there's sort of the hawks, the trade hawks, and some people who are more of a moderating influence that are all kind of trying to make sure that this works in the way that it's intended. And just by sort of doing that and by sort of following the letter of the law, by making sure that you're on solid legal footing, it does appear to have somewhat of a potentially moderating effect on the tariffs themselves, because you want to make sure that when you put tariffs in place, that they stick, that they work, and that they're not subject to legal challenges and other things like that. So that does kind of appear to be limiting the scope of maybe some of the maximalist tariffs that we were expecting a month or two ago. But you know, caveat empdor Trump could you know, with his the authorities that he has impose still very stiff tariffs, you know, basically you know, on his own discretion, at his own discretion, And that is something that I think still has markets a little.

Bit nervous, all right, good stuff, and so glad we could check in with you. Dan. Thank you so much. Dan Flatley. He's US Treasury reporter here at Bloomberg News. He is joining us from our DC bureau.

Bit nervous, all right, good stuff, and so glad we could check in with you. Dan. Thank you so much. Dan Flatley. He's US Treasury reporter here at Bloomberg News. He is joining us from our DC bureau.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen on Applecarplay and the Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, or watch us live on YouTube.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen on Applecarplay and the Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, or watch us live on YouTube.

For more than two decades, Google Search has definitely ruled the web. Search is also Google's beating heart, generating more than one hundred and ninety eight billion dollars in revenue in twenty twenty four. Almost sixty percent of Alphabet's annual sales tim though enter into the AI race, chatchipt and more, and Google is searching for its next game.

For more than two decades, Google Search has definitely ruled the web. Search is also Google's beating heart, generating more than one hundred and ninety eight billion dollars in revenue in twenty twenty four. Almost sixty percent of Alphabet's annual sales tim though enter into the AI race, chatchipt and more, and Google is searching for its next game.

It is the cover story of the new upcoming issue of Bloomberg Business Week, which you can read now at Bloomberg dot com and on the Bloomberg terminal and soon on newstands. To get directly to this story, just go to Bloomberg dot com slash BusinessWeek. It's also the Big Take, which means our editorial team has singled it out as a must read for all and I absolutely agree with that. The reporters on the story Bloomberg News Technology reporter Julia Love and Bloomberg News Big Tech reporter Davey Alba. Julia is in our San Francisco bureau. Davy here with us in our New York studio. Julia, I do want to start with you because Google is synonymous with search. We google things.

It is the cover story of the new upcoming issue of Bloomberg Business Week, which you can read now at Bloomberg dot com and on the Bloomberg terminal and soon on newstands. To get directly to this story, just go to Bloomberg dot com slash BusinessWeek. It's also the Big Take, which means our editorial team has singled it out as a must read for all and I absolutely agree with that. The reporters on the story Bloomberg News Technology reporter Julia Love and Bloomberg News Big Tech reporter Davey Alba. Julia is in our San Francisco bureau. Davy here with us in our New York studio. Julia, I do want to start with you because Google is synonymous with search. We google things.

It's a verb.

It's a verb.

Now, it's ubiquitous, It's dominant for what seems like forever. That was then, But there are some new players in town, enter the AI era. What's going on?

Now, it's ubiquitous, It's dominant for what seems like forever. That was then, But there are some new players in town, enter the AI era. What's going on?

Yeah, so the search market has really gotten a lot more interesting over the past few years. There's been a rush of new players. A lot of people use chat, GPT for search. There are also startups like Perplexity, and those new companies have really challenged Google to use generative AI to rethink what the core product should look like for the first time in many years.

Yeah, so the search market has really gotten a lot more interesting over the past few years. There's been a rush of new players. A lot of people use chat, GPT for search. There are also startups like Perplexity, and those new companies have really challenged Google to use generative AI to rethink what the core product should look like for the first time in many years.

So what's kind of wild, Julia, is that it sounds like Google and Alphabet had an opportunit unity to maybe beat CHATCHYBT at its own game, and yet it kind of passed. Take us back there.

So what's kind of wild, Julia, is that it sounds like Google and Alphabet had an opportunit unity to maybe beat CHATCHYBT at its own game, and yet it kind of passed. Take us back there.

Yeah, so with this story, we are really shining a light on the attempts that Doodle employees made to incorporate generative AI in search to have a chatbot that would provide answers along side links. They were trying to do this well before the launch of chat GPT. Doodle invented the AI technology that makes this possible, but the search team that proposed this encountered a lot of resistance. Internally, the company was really loath to reconsider its business model. They also had some concerns about the accuracy just because Doodle is held to such a high bar. It's a critical utility, not just a fun novelty like a startup might be, Well Davie.

Yeah, so with this story, we are really shining a light on the attempts that Doodle employees made to incorporate generative AI in search to have a chatbot that would provide answers along side links. They were trying to do this well before the launch of chat GPT. Doodle invented the AI technology that makes this possible, but the search team that proposed this encountered a lot of resistance. Internally, the company was really loath to reconsider its business model. They also had some concerns about the accuracy just because Doodle is held to such a high bar. It's a critical utility, not just a fun novelty like a startup might be, Well Davie.

The story also explores over the last couple of years, the complaints that people have had when it comes to Google Search, and the idea that it hasn't become as useful for some people because of the way that publishers and website developers have really started to game the system.

The story also explores over the last couple of years, the complaints that people have had when it comes to Google Search, and the idea that it hasn't become as useful for some people because of the way that publishers and website developers have really started to game the system.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's something that we explored the story. Even before generative AI sort of exploded onto the scene, there was already a sense that you could make Google more useful than it just on its own by doing things like typing your search query and then adding Reddit, and then you know, Google was also contending with site owners and sort of spammers who just knew Google's rules and wanted to gain the system to get right up top on search results, but those results weren't necessarily the best quality results. So that was sort of the scene in which you know, chat GPT came on, and then Google also had to figure out how does it respond to this existential threat and also improve itself so that some of these quality issues are addressed. And I think it's kind of an open question whether people like what they're doing with generative AI, you know, because of market pressures they have added on these generative AI features, whether or not users have asked for them. And right now, a lot of the things that would have been you know, sort of experimental in the past, or that Google might not have launched because it has such a high bar and accuracy. Right, that's right in the main product.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's something that we explored the story. Even before generative AI sort of exploded onto the scene, there was already a sense that you could make Google more useful than it just on its own by doing things like typing your search query and then adding Reddit, and then you know, Google was also contending with site owners and sort of spammers who just knew Google's rules and wanted to gain the system to get right up top on search results, but those results weren't necessarily the best quality results. So that was sort of the scene in which you know, chat GPT came on, and then Google also had to figure out how does it respond to this existential threat and also improve itself so that some of these quality issues are addressed. And I think it's kind of an open question whether people like what they're doing with generative AI, you know, because of market pressures they have added on these generative AI features, whether or not users have asked for them. And right now, a lot of the things that would have been you know, sort of experimental in the past, or that Google might not have launched because it has such a high bar and accuracy. Right, that's right in the main product.

You like it, Carol, what Google? Yeah, the Google AI search results?

You like it, Carol, what Google? Yeah, the Google AI search results?

Because Tim is like, where did you get this from? Like take us in Like I feel like when we do a big techt story and there's like disruption going on, and you know, execs or pitch something and they kind of passed. There's internal discussions about, hey, we kind of missed the mark. Take us inside alphabet Google and what's going on right now? Are they being like, wait a minute, the employees, we've got this, we need to move on.

Because Tim is like, where did you get this from? Like take us in Like I feel like when we do a big techt story and there's like disruption going on, and you know, execs or pitch something and they kind of passed. There's internal discussions about, hey, we kind of missed the mark. Take us inside alphabet Google and what's going on right now? Are they being like, wait a minute, the employees, we've got this, we need to move on.

Yeah, So Doodle is coming off of a rocky few years. Davey and I have heard from our sources that chat GPT really sparked a panic inside the company. It was very painful for Doodle to see someone else taking its invention and finding the product hit. And so they've really turned up the heat on their employees to ship products faster. And the woman really at the center of it all when it comes to search is Liz Reid. She's in the top search job now. And what's interesting about her is she's a long time Doodle executive, but she's spent most of her time in Google Maps, and so that means that she's a little bit less wedded to some of the old ways of doing things in search. She's a little more willing to experiment, and I think that that sensibility has really come in handy as Google kind of enters this new era.

Yeah, So Doodle is coming off of a rocky few years. Davey and I have heard from our sources that chat GPT really sparked a panic inside the company. It was very painful for Doodle to see someone else taking its invention and finding the product hit. And so they've really turned up the heat on their employees to ship products faster. And the woman really at the center of it all when it comes to search is Liz Reid. She's in the top search job now. And what's interesting about her is she's a long time Doodle executive, but she's spent most of her time in Google Maps, and so that means that she's a little bit less wedded to some of the old ways of doing things in search. She's a little more willing to experiment, and I think that that sensibility has really come in handy as Google kind of enters this new era.

I think what is wild and I think we've seen this was it with either electric cars or something Tim will remember better than I will. But you guys writing the story. One thing that really stung about chatchpt's rise was that it was built on Google's own inventions. Open AI's chatbot uses an AI architecture that Google detailed in a now legendary research paper published back in twenty seventeen. I mean, Davy, that's we've seen this before, where all of a sudden, like a company had the research and then passed on it. Yeah, that's got to kill absolutely.

I think what is wild and I think we've seen this was it with either electric cars or something Tim will remember better than I will. But you guys writing the story. One thing that really stung about chatchpt's rise was that it was built on Google's own inventions. Open AI's chatbot uses an AI architecture that Google detailed in a now legendary research paper published back in twenty seventeen. I mean, Davy, that's we've seen this before, where all of a sudden, like a company had the research and then passed on it. Yeah, that's got to kill absolutely.

I mean Google runs two of the most advanced AI labs in the world, Google deep Mind, which has since joined into Google deep Mind, I should say, and a lot of the AI developments that they have rolled out over the years has been really under the hood of these consumer facing products. So, you know, AI is something that CEO Sundar Pichai has said he wanted to orient the company around even by the mid twenty tens. But not the kind of generative AI that we see in chat, GBT and you know, major products today, but more like improvements to search that are under the hood, things like making search faster, right, making it more return more relevant results, things like that. So yeah, really stung when chat GBT came out and became so popular among Well.

I mean Google runs two of the most advanced AI labs in the world, Google deep Mind, which has since joined into Google deep Mind, I should say, and a lot of the AI developments that they have rolled out over the years has been really under the hood of these consumer facing products. So, you know, AI is something that CEO Sundar Pichai has said he wanted to orient the company around even by the mid twenty tens. But not the kind of generative AI that we see in chat, GBT and you know, major products today, but more like improvements to search that are under the hood, things like making search faster, right, making it more return more relevant results, things like that. So yeah, really stung when chat GBT came out and became so popular among Well.

You two make the point in the piece that he thinks that we're at the really, really early innings when it comes to AI's effect, in AI's role not just on the company, but also on the world, in the way that we interact with the world. Julia, it makes sense that Google would be so protective of Google and what its search page looks like. After all, it accounts for so much of the company's revenue and profit. It's really the thing that they need to guard. That said, what are they doing moving forward in a few months that will potentially upend the way that consumers see search results?

You two make the point in the piece that he thinks that we're at the really, really early innings when it comes to AI's effect, in AI's role not just on the company, but also on the world, in the way that we interact with the world. Julia, it makes sense that Google would be so protective of Google and what its search page looks like. After all, it accounts for so much of the company's revenue and profit. It's really the thing that they need to guard. That said, what are they doing moving forward in a few months that will potentially upend the way that consumers see search results?

Yeah, I think that we see Goodle testing a few different paths right now. It seems to me like they aren't entirely certain yet of what the best way is to incorporate this into Google Search. They've got the AI overviews, which Carol is a fan of, where they're often topping the search results with an answer that was drafted by artificial intelligence. Those are there whether or not you choose them, they just appear automatically. But then they've also announced that they're experimenting with this new tab called AI mode that you'll be able to click to, you know, similar to photos and the other you know features in Goodle Search, and you'll be able to go there for kind of like a chat GPT experience, like when you really want to go deep and have a back and forth with Doodle's artificial intelligence to explore a particular topic. And so I think it's interesting to see them rolling out that dedicated mode and we'll see how that goes over. People who pay for Doodle's premium AI features are getting an early crack at it now.

Yeah, I think that we see Goodle testing a few different paths right now. It seems to me like they aren't entirely certain yet of what the best way is to incorporate this into Google Search. They've got the AI overviews, which Carol is a fan of, where they're often topping the search results with an answer that was drafted by artificial intelligence. Those are there whether or not you choose them, they just appear automatically. But then they've also announced that they're experimenting with this new tab called AI mode that you'll be able to click to, you know, similar to photos and the other you know features in Goodle Search, and you'll be able to go there for kind of like a chat GPT experience, like when you really want to go deep and have a back and forth with Doodle's artificial intelligence to explore a particular topic. And so I think it's interesting to see them rolling out that dedicated mode and we'll see how that goes over. People who pay for Doodle's premium AI features are getting an early crack at it now.

I mean we talked some numbers at the introduction to you guys, one hundred and ninety eight billion dollars in revenue in twenty twenty four search. Whenever they report earnings, we go to those search numbers because at the heart of their business, that's what it's all about. Julia, I want you to first weigh in on this, you know, this cover story. How important is it that Google gets this right as the world continues to move forward and embrace AI.

I mean we talked some numbers at the introduction to you guys, one hundred and ninety eight billion dollars in revenue in twenty twenty four search. Whenever they report earnings, we go to those search numbers because at the heart of their business, that's what it's all about. Julia, I want you to first weigh in on this, you know, this cover story. How important is it that Google gets this right as the world continues to move forward and embrace AI.

It's critical. I think that the success of the company depends on it. Goodle has made some progress in recent years in diversifying its revenues. Goodle Cloud is now profitable, which was a big win for them. But search is still the heart of the company. They need to remain relevant to users daily lives. They still want to be that thing that you turn to reflectively when you have a passing question. And analysts have begun to tell Davy and me that they are concerned that search growth going forward may start to level off a bit.

It's critical. I think that the success of the company depends on it. Goodle has made some progress in recent years in diversifying its revenues. Goodle Cloud is now profitable, which was a big win for them. But search is still the heart of the company. They need to remain relevant to users daily lives. They still want to be that thing that you turn to reflectively when you have a passing question. And analysts have begun to tell Davy and me that they are concerned that search growth going forward may start to level off a bit.

We know things can change, remember AOL, I mean, and other things. I'm just gonna say.

We know things can change, remember AOL, I mean, and other things. I'm just gonna say.

Right, oh, that's what happens.

Right, oh, that's what happens.

Exactly exactly, Davey got about thirty seconds left. Your final thoughts on this story and kind of what comes next?

Exactly exactly, Davey got about thirty seconds left. Your final thoughts on this story and kind of what comes next?

Yeah, I mean, I think that this story shows what a critical piece of infrastructure in a lot of ways Google Search is to the web, and as AI marches forward, what is sort of the future?

Yeah, I mean, I think that this story shows what a critical piece of infrastructure in a lot of ways Google Search is to the web, and as AI marches forward, what is sort of the future?

Google is a reflection of the web.

Google is a reflection of the web.

Uh, And it's also sort of, you know, a utility to explore the web. But if both are degrading, which is sort of the sense that we get from from our sources, then what next.

Uh, And it's also sort of, you know, a utility to explore the web. But if both are degrading, which is sort of the sense that we get from from our sources, then what next.

Yeah, it's a big question. And you know, this is why it's such an interesting time period when we look at all of these big tech play big tech players. Davey thank you so much. Davey Alba, big tech reporter at Bloomberg News here in studio, and of course Julia Love out there in our San Francisco bureau. She is our technology reporter here at Bloomberg News.

Yeah, it's a big question. And you know, this is why it's such an interesting time period when we look at all of these big tech play big tech players. Davey thank you so much. Davey Alba, big tech reporter at Bloomberg News here in studio, and of course Julia Love out there in our San Francisco bureau. She is our technology reporter here at Bloomberg News.

You let me drive.

You let me drive.

No, no, no no, this is not a toy, honey, please, I'll do the gravel.

No, no, no no, this is not a toy, honey, please, I'll do the gravel.

I want to drive.

I want to drive.

It's a good question, good time.

It's a good question, good time.

This is the drive to the clothes.

This is the drive to the clothes.

Punks and music.

Punks and music.

Well, Brier runs.

Well, Brier runs.

Down on Bloomberg Radio.

Down on Bloomberg Radio.

All right, TikTok, everybody. You are up to speed on the markets thanks to Charlie Pellett and Bill Maloney. And we're bouncing around here. A little change though on the S and P five hundred, slightly lower in the Dow Jones Industrial Average, and just up about four ten percent on the Nasdaq one hundred. So yeah, as we kicked off a couple of hours ago, or almost two hours ago, market's really searching for some direction here, Tim.

All right, TikTok, everybody. You are up to speed on the markets thanks to Charlie Pellett and Bill Maloney. And we're bouncing around here. A little change though on the S and P five hundred, slightly lower in the Dow Jones Industrial Average, and just up about four ten percent on the Nasdaq one hundred. So yeah, as we kicked off a couple of hours ago, or almost two hours ago, market's really searching for some direction here, Tim.

Well, let's see what Julie Beale has to say about this. She's chief market strategist in portfolio manager at Kane Anderson Rudnick. She joins us from Santa Monica. We just heard from Barry Redholts about sort of the twists and turns of the market since the election was yesterday, in your view, a turning point, given the rally that we saw, the conviction that we saw based on potentially more targeted US tariffs.

Well, let's see what Julie Beale has to say about this. She's chief market strategist in portfolio manager at Kane Anderson Rudnick. She joins us from Santa Monica. We just heard from Barry Redholts about sort of the twists and turns of the market since the election was yesterday, in your view, a turning point, given the rally that we saw, the conviction that we saw based on potentially more targeted US tariffs.

I think that for sure, there was a lot of enthusiasm and excitement that you know, maybe this is really the moment where there's going to be more clarity and we're going to be moving a little bit less quickly and more thoughtfully. I think that still remains to be seen, and I think the much bigger issue is less how the market reacts and more how companies and consumers react, because that's really what's going to be driving the markets on the long term horizon. And I think you can say to most companies, hey, we're going to add these tariffs. Oh just kidding, We're not going to do them. You're going to be fine now. I think most capital allocators are like, there's still the risk that this will change really quickly, and I don't want to be caught sideways on that. So I think there's a lot of still underlying concern that even if you do roll back these tariffs and make them less deep or less broad, there's still this underlying concern. Hey, I don't really know what's going to be coming down. It hasn't necessarily been well communicated, and I don't want to put myself in a risky position and where I'm on the wrong side of that.

I think that for sure, there was a lot of enthusiasm and excitement that you know, maybe this is really the moment where there's going to be more clarity and we're going to be moving a little bit less quickly and more thoughtfully. I think that still remains to be seen, and I think the much bigger issue is less how the market reacts and more how companies and consumers react, because that's really what's going to be driving the markets on the long term horizon. And I think you can say to most companies, hey, we're going to add these tariffs. Oh just kidding, We're not going to do them. You're going to be fine now. I think most capital allocators are like, there's still the risk that this will change really quickly, and I don't want to be caught sideways on that. So I think there's a lot of still underlying concern that even if you do roll back these tariffs and make them less deep or less broad, there's still this underlying concern. Hey, I don't really know what's going to be coming down. It hasn't necessarily been well communicated, and I don't want to put myself in a risky position and where I'm on the wrong side of that.

All right, So does that mean, Julie, move into cash? Move into cash like investments, don't play the equity side of things, Like, what do you do then in this environment?

All right, So does that mean, Julie, move into cash? Move into cash like investments, don't play the equity side of things, Like, what do you do then in this environment?

I think your previous guests really said. What I truly believe is that it's really impossible to try to time this kind of a market. It is so much desire to kind of create and add value by trading, by moving, by reacting. This is a really good time to be sitting on your hands. Frankly, I like the Howard Mark statement, don't just do something, sit there, And I think this is a real sit there moment. Where as long as you have a portfolio that's put together of good quality companies that are they themselves able to respond to changes in the market, you should be okay. That is better off than trying to position for a very specific outcome.

I think your previous guests really said. What I truly believe is that it's really impossible to try to time this kind of a market. It is so much desire to kind of create and add value by trading, by moving, by reacting. This is a really good time to be sitting on your hands. Frankly, I like the Howard Mark statement, don't just do something, sit there, And I think this is a real sit there moment. Where as long as you have a portfolio that's put together of good quality companies that are they themselves able to respond to changes in the market, you should be okay. That is better off than trying to position for a very specific outcome.

Well, let's talk about some of those companies that you have your eye on. We always love it when our guests send us stock picks, especially stocks that we don't talk about all the time.

Well, let's talk about some of those companies that you have your eye on. We always love it when our guests send us stock picks, especially stocks that we don't talk about all the time.

I want they're not household names.

I want they're not household names.

These are not well for me, they're not household names for you either, Carol Now, Okay, co part CPRT is the Tickeer. It's down three point three percent year to date. They provide insurance companies with services to process and sell salvage vehicles through auctions. It's about a fifty three billion dollar company. Yeah, what's your view?

These are not well for me, they're not household names for you either, Carol Now, Okay, co part CPRT is the Tickeer. It's down three point three percent year to date. They provide insurance companies with services to process and sell salvage vehicles through auctions. It's about a fifty three billion dollar company. Yeah, what's your view?

So you know, I think, look, this is we're looking for, are these companies that have really durable earning streams even in trickier market conditions, trickier economies, so that we don't have to be perfectly correct on the macro. And Copart's a great example of that, where if you look at the consistency of their earnings, it's really a demonstration of how competitively protected they are. Right, A lot of these salvage yards, these are really not things that you want in your backyard. They're really hard to permit, they're really hard to come by, and so they are a really valuable asset or once you have it in place and you need to build the scale so that you can run these very large auctions, so they have a lot of competitive protections around them. They're good stewards of capital and that is the kind of not flashy, not sexy type of business that I'm really attracted to right now.

So you know, I think, look, this is we're looking for, are these companies that have really durable earning streams even in trickier market conditions, trickier economies, so that we don't have to be perfectly correct on the macro. And Copart's a great example of that, where if you look at the consistency of their earnings, it's really a demonstration of how competitively protected they are. Right, A lot of these salvage yards, these are really not things that you want in your backyard. They're really hard to permit, they're really hard to come by, and so they are a really valuable asset or once you have it in place and you need to build the scale so that you can run these very large auctions, so they have a lot of competitive protections around them. They're good stewards of capital and that is the kind of not flashy, not sexy type of business that I'm really attracted to right now.

All right. Another one is Varisk Analytics. Hopefully I'm saying it correctly. This is about a forty billion dollar more than forty billion dollar company.

All right. Another one is Varisk Analytics. Hopefully I'm saying it correctly. This is about a forty billion dollar more than forty billion dollar company.

It's kil they're based in Jersey City. It's in your backyard. You should know this company literally in your backyard.

It's kil they're based in Jersey City. It's in your backyard. You should know this company literally in your backyard.

I have no idea where they are. I'll have to look for their address. Who are they? What are they? They're up about four percent here year to date.

I have no idea where they are. I'll have to look for their address. Who are they? What are they? They're up about four percent here year to date.

So you can think of Varisk as this intermediary where they take a lot of the claims insurance data and then sell it back to the insurance company so that they can do a better job with their underwriting. And that is something that started years ago, I think in the seventies, where the insurance companies got together and said, if we pool our data and compare it, it will be much easier for us to underwrite accurately. And that's where this company kind of came to fruition. So Obviously, these data assets are extremely valuable, and it's pretty awesome when your customer actually provides the thing that you sell back to them. That's a pretty unique business model and there's a lot of regulatory barriers around that too. So again, this is a kind of quiet company that not a lot of people have heard about, but I would rate it as among the highest quality that we own.

So you can think of Varisk as this intermediary where they take a lot of the claims insurance data and then sell it back to the insurance company so that they can do a better job with their underwriting. And that is something that started years ago, I think in the seventies, where the insurance companies got together and said, if we pool our data and compare it, it will be much easier for us to underwrite accurately. And that's where this company kind of came to fruition. So Obviously, these data assets are extremely valuable, and it's pretty awesome when your customer actually provides the thing that you sell back to them. That's a pretty unique business model and there's a lot of regulatory barriers around that too. So again, this is a kind of quiet company that not a lot of people have heard about, but I would rate it as among the highest quality that we own.

All right.

All right.

So that's ticker VRSK up four percent year to date. A company that's flat year to date, Tyler Technologies. This is a company that's based in Roslin Heights, New York. It's twenty five billion dollar market cap. What's your view?

So that's ticker VRSK up four percent year to date. A company that's flat year to date, Tyler Technologies. This is a company that's based in Roslin Heights, New York. It's twenty five billion dollar market cap. What's your view?

So Tyler Technology sells software to municipalities, local governments, and a lot of these cities have this really big challenge right now where they don't they're not really able to actually have good IT staff and programmers on site, do not pay enough for that to really work for them, and many of the solutions that they have kind of cobbled together are homegrown solutions or companies that just don't even exist anymore. You know, Tyler is unique and that they have pretty modern software that they're selling to municipalities, but they really know this customer better than an oracle can ever speak to them. And so most of these cities are really being able to outsource a lot of their it to a company like Tyler, who can take that off their hands and run it, you know, in a successful way.

So Tyler Technology sells software to municipalities, local governments, and a lot of these cities have this really big challenge right now where they don't they're not really able to actually have good IT staff and programmers on site, do not pay enough for that to really work for them, and many of the solutions that they have kind of cobbled together are homegrown solutions or companies that just don't even exist anymore. You know, Tyler is unique and that they have pretty modern software that they're selling to municipalities, but they really know this customer better than an oracle can ever speak to them. And so most of these cities are really being able to outsource a lot of their it to a company like Tyler, who can take that off their hands and run it, you know, in a successful way.

You know, it's funny, there's been so much. In fact, there are a couple of columns on the Bloomberg today from our opinion team Julie about investing overseas versus continuing to invest in the United States. What's a smart thought about that? What are you doing for your investors? Are you expanding in terms of investments overseas? And just got about thirty seconds.

You know, it's funny, there's been so much. In fact, there are a couple of columns on the Bloomberg today from our opinion team Julie about investing overseas versus continuing to invest in the United States. What's a smart thought about that? What are you doing for your investors? Are you expanding in terms of investments overseas? And just got about thirty seconds.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely. I think what we are seeing right now is just a function of Europe just got way too cheap relative to the US. I do think that there's renewed excitement and fiscal spending that's going to be happening, and so that could drive more economic growth. Right now, growth estimates are still better for the US than for Europe. But I think you should be diversified and have exposure to both.

Absolutely. I think what we are seeing right now is just a function of Europe just got way too cheap relative to the US. I do think that there's renewed excitement and fiscal spending that's going to be happening, and so that could drive more economic growth. Right now, growth estimates are still better for the US than for Europe. But I think you should be diversified and have exposure to both.

Okay, which were you maybe saying that six months ago or no, just quickly.

Okay, which were you maybe saying that six months ago or no, just quickly.

I think, broadly speaking, I think you should have but you really weren't getting paid for having international exposure for the last like five six years, right, But I think it really.

I think, broadly speaking, I think you should have but you really weren't getting paid for having international exposure for the last like five six years, right, But I think it really.

Makes sense now, all right, Really appreciate it. Jillie Beale, Chief Market Strategi's portfolio manager at Cain Anderson Rednick, joining us from Santa Monica, California.

Makes sense now, all right, Really appreciate it. Jillie Beale, Chief Market Strategi's portfolio manager at Cain Anderson Rednick, joining us from Santa Monica, California.

This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast, available on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and the Bloomberg Business App. You can also watch us live weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg terminal

This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast, available on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and the Bloomberg Business App. You can also watch us live weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg terminal