Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.

Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.

This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio. So, Carol, I've been doing this thought experiment. Hey, I've been asking parents. It's very informal, it's anecdotal, asking parents of teens about a proposed TikTok ban. I've heard from all of them the same thing, literally all of them. I hope they ban it. No standard deviation, there's no no And this is again not scientific. It's just like, Okay, you have a kid, you have a teenager, they have a phone, they're on TikTok all the time.

This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio. So, Carol, I've been doing this thought experiment. Hey, I've been asking parents. It's very informal, it's anecdotal, asking parents of teens about a proposed TikTok ban. I've heard from all of them the same thing, literally all of them. I hope they ban it. No standard deviation, there's no no And this is again not scientific. It's just like, Okay, you have a kid, you have a teenager, they have a phone, they're on TikTok all the time.

Well, we know that option could be on the table after the US House of Representatives today passed to build a banned TikTok in the US unless it's Chinese owner sells the video sharing app. But Tim, we know it's not just TikTok that has its critics.

Well, we know that option could be on the table after the US House of Representatives today passed to build a banned TikTok in the US unless it's Chinese owner sells the video sharing app. But Tim, we know it's not just TikTok that has its critics.

Yeah, people have really had this fraught relationship with all different kinds of tech, hardware, software, you name it, their digital talk, detox retreats. I tried to delete certain apps on weekends so I don't pick up my phone and scroll when I'm with my family. The question is how did we get here to a place where I really ship with technology has become like this. Our next guest has been thinking a lot about that and says he has a solution. Frank mcot junior as chairman of McCourt Global. It's a company with interest in real estate, sports, tech, media and more. Frank also the founder and executive chairman of Project Liberty, which is, in its own words, advancing the responsible development of the Internet of tomorrow, designed and governed for the comment good. He's also the author of the brand new book Our Biggest Fight Reclaiming Liberty, Humanity, and dignity in the Digital Age. Frank, Welcome to Bloomberg Business Week. How are you.

Yeah, people have really had this fraught relationship with all different kinds of tech, hardware, software, you name it, their digital talk, detox retreats. I tried to delete certain apps on weekends so I don't pick up my phone and scroll when I'm with my family. The question is how did we get here to a place where I really ship with technology has become like this. Our next guest has been thinking a lot about that and says he has a solution. Frank mcot junior as chairman of McCourt Global. It's a company with interest in real estate, sports, tech, media and more. Frank also the founder and executive chairman of Project Liberty, which is, in its own words, advancing the responsible development of the Internet of tomorrow, designed and governed for the comment good. He's also the author of the brand new book Our Biggest Fight Reclaiming Liberty, Humanity, and dignity in the Digital Age. Frank, Welcome to Bloomberg Business Week. How are you.

I'm doing good. How are you both doing?

I'm doing good. How are you both doing?

We're doing well. I'm interested because you're known for a lot of things. You're the former owner and chair of the La Dodgers, you own a French football club. You've worked in construction and real estate for years. What happened that prompted you to spend so much money and so much time fighting the Internet as we know it?

We're doing well. I'm interested because you're known for a lot of things. You're the former owner and chair of the La Dodgers, you own a French football club. You've worked in construction and real estate for years. What happened that prompted you to spend so much money and so much time fighting the Internet as we know it?

Yeah?

Yeah?

So I wrote Our Biggest Fight to really shine light on Project Liberty, which is a five hundred million dollar initiative to reimagine how the Internet works and you know, and really take back control of our data, which I would say is really our personhood in this digital era from the kind of the machines of big tech.

So I wrote Our Biggest Fight to really shine light on Project Liberty, which is a five hundred million dollar initiative to reimagine how the Internet works and you know, and really take back control of our data, which I would say is really our personhood in this digital era from the kind of the machines of big tech.

Right, we're the machines, the machines.

Right, we're the machines, the machines.

Look, we are connected to the Internet by an IP address. So let's start right there. Okay, the Internet is not you and I connected, it's our device connected. It was built to connect devices, machines, and that's how the Internet came into being. And then thirty five years ago yesterday, Tim berners Lee created the World Wide Web that was to connect data. We have never been connected as people on the Internet. So what I put forward in the book is is now, knowing how powerful the Internet is and how dependent we are on it, and how everything we do virtually is digitized, we need to reclaim ownership of our digital our social graph, our digital information, our relationships and so forth, because it's who we are. It's not our data, it's who we are in the digital age. And so I call that personhood, right, and it's our digital DNA is as important as our biological DNA. It's our lived archive. Why on Earth would we give that up just for the right of using the internet. We need an internet where we're in charge, we're owning and controlling, so to speak, our data, and we reclaim that that personhood.

Look, we are connected to the Internet by an IP address. So let's start right there. Okay, the Internet is not you and I connected, it's our device connected. It was built to connect devices, machines, and that's how the Internet came into being. And then thirty five years ago yesterday, Tim berners Lee created the World Wide Web that was to connect data. We have never been connected as people on the Internet. So what I put forward in the book is is now, knowing how powerful the Internet is and how dependent we are on it, and how everything we do virtually is digitized, we need to reclaim ownership of our digital our social graph, our digital information, our relationships and so forth, because it's who we are. It's not our data, it's who we are in the digital age. And so I call that personhood, right, and it's our digital DNA is as important as our biological DNA. It's our lived archive. Why on Earth would we give that up just for the right of using the internet. We need an internet where we're in charge, we're owning and controlling, so to speak, our data, and we reclaim that that personhood.

Well safe to say we didn't know we were giving it up, right, We just thought, Wow, this is a really cool thing, and look at all the things we can do. And many would argue right at the same time that the Internet and that connectivity has allowed us to do so much more and learn so much more about the other. But then there's the dark side and bad side to it. Is there though? Can we I mean, the horse has left the barn in a long you know, a long time ago, Frank, Can we kind of regain in our digital identity? Can we go back? Yeah?

Well safe to say we didn't know we were giving it up, right, We just thought, Wow, this is a really cool thing, and look at all the things we can do. And many would argue right at the same time that the Internet and that connectivity has allowed us to do so much more and learn so much more about the other. But then there's the dark side and bad side to it. Is there though? Can we I mean, the horse has left the barn in a long you know, a long time ago, Frank, Can we kind of regain in our digital identity? Can we go back? Yeah?

We must, We can, and we must. And I do want to focus on something first before I get to that solution and so forth. And I do think we are learning more and more about the harms, right, we hear them every day and.

We must, We can, and we must. And I do want to focus on something first before I get to that solution and so forth. And I do think we are learning more and more about the harms, right, we hear them every day and.

This we talk about it all the time, and it's.

This we talk about it all the time, and it's.

Just going to get worse as a generative AI enters the picture, because a broken technology made more powerful will just make the problems worse. But I want to just highlight one thing you said, you know, there are a lot of good things and then some bad things. I hear that a lot that we kind of somehow think of this technology differently than we would think of For instance, let's say we were sitting here and some municipality had a water system that was putting water into a million homes, and you were reporting today that four hundred thousand of those homes were getting toxic water. That we're making the households sick and killing some kids. Okay, would we sit here and say, well, yeah, but it's it's putting clean water in six hundred thousand homes. So kind of on bound? Why are we so tolerant of the harms of technology? Look at the Internet is ours, it's our data. We should be in charge. Why would we want machines to drag us into a future we don't want. Let's just take them inute, fix it, and then make it more powerful, and we fix it by putting individuals in control. I'm happy to talk about.

Just going to get worse as a generative AI enters the picture, because a broken technology made more powerful will just make the problems worse. But I want to just highlight one thing you said, you know, there are a lot of good things and then some bad things. I hear that a lot that we kind of somehow think of this technology differently than we would think of For instance, let's say we were sitting here and some municipality had a water system that was putting water into a million homes, and you were reporting today that four hundred thousand of those homes were getting toxic water. That we're making the households sick and killing some kids. Okay, would we sit here and say, well, yeah, but it's it's putting clean water in six hundred thousand homes. So kind of on bound? Why are we so tolerant of the harms of technology? Look at the Internet is ours, it's our data. We should be in charge. Why would we want machines to drag us into a future we don't want. Let's just take them inute, fix it, and then make it more powerful, and we fix it by putting individuals in control. I'm happy to talk about.

So in this case, in this analogy, what are what's what's the toxic water? What's what are the harms being done?

So in this case, in this analogy, what are what's what's the toxic water? What's what are the harms being done?

So? Yeah, so so where to begin?

So? Yeah, so so where to begin?

Right?

Right?

So let's think about this.

So let's think about this.

Like the Russian inference, interference in the elections.

Like the Russian inference, interference in the elections.

Good starting point number two, missing disinformation.

Good starting point number two, missing disinformation.

Children.

Children.

But the problem is, I don't understand how that has to do with the structure of the Internet versus Yeah. So let's maligne actors. Okay, so on the Internet, right, and in this case, you know, we could talk talk about maligne actors potentially being foreign governments that want to interfere, but also companies that want to create engaging content. And I use the term engaging meaning anything that gets people to click or scroll, which in some cases is bad for people.

But the problem is, I don't understand how that has to do with the structure of the Internet versus Yeah. So let's maligne actors. Okay, so on the Internet, right, and in this case, you know, we could talk talk about maligne actors potentially being foreign governments that want to interfere, but also companies that want to create engaging content. And I use the term engaging meaning anything that gets people to click or scroll, which in some cases is bad for people.

Yeah, so let's let's think about it this way. Okay, I'm the head of the postal service, and I come to you and say I have an idea I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna deliver your mail no stamps for free, so no more stamps. So you say, okay, I'm gonna listen. Maybe I'd be a little bit suspicious, but i'd listen. Then I'd say, Okay, here's the deal. I'm gonna put cameras in every one of your homes, every one of the rooms in your house, in your car, in your workplace, and so forth, and I'm just going to surveil you at twenty four to seven. You kind of be creeped out by that, right, and then say well, yeah, but it's free. And then it's one more thing. I'm going to open your mail. I'm going to read it and everything I learn is now mine, Okay, your relationships, your ideas, everything else. And then you say, well that's I would never Why would I do that?

Yeah, so let's let's think about it this way. Okay, I'm the head of the postal service, and I come to you and say I have an idea I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna deliver your mail no stamps for free, so no more stamps. So you say, okay, I'm gonna listen. Maybe I'd be a little bit suspicious, but i'd listen. Then I'd say, Okay, here's the deal. I'm gonna put cameras in every one of your homes, every one of the rooms in your house, in your car, in your workplace, and so forth, and I'm just going to surveil you at twenty four to seven. You kind of be creeped out by that, right, and then say well, yeah, but it's free. And then it's one more thing. I'm going to open your mail. I'm going to read it and everything I learn is now mine, Okay, your relationships, your ideas, everything else. And then you say, well that's I would never Why would I do that?

Okay? And yeah, Then I said, well, but we do it.

Okay? And yeah, Then I said, well, but we do it.

One Well, one other thing. I'm going to read your thirteen year old daughter's diary and I'm gonna and I'm gonna learn she's a little concerned about her weight. She's thirteen, she's insecure, a little vulnerable. I've got some stuff I want to sell her, and I'm going to profit from her insecurities.

One Well, one other thing. I'm going to read your thirteen year old daughter's diary and I'm gonna and I'm gonna learn she's a little concerned about her weight. She's thirteen, she's insecure, a little vulnerable. I've got some stuff I want to sell her, and I'm going to profit from her insecurities.

It's sick.

It's sick.

It's not something we should be putting up with. And so my point is that we have a decentralized intranet. Something that Tim tim wrote. Tim Bernersley wrote a letter.

It's not something we should be putting up with. And so my point is that we have a decentralized intranet. Something that Tim tim wrote. Tim Bernersley wrote a letter.

He publicly he issued it yesterday.

He publicly he issued it yesterday.

He said, I created something that was decentralized, that was intended to empower human beings. You know, the proverbial tie that lifts all boats, and it became something very centralized in these big app These big apps are scraping data and they're and they're applying algorithms and they're doing things with it that are not good for society.

He said, I created something that was decentralized, that was intended to empower human beings. You know, the proverbial tie that lifts all boats, and it became something very centralized in these big app These big apps are scraping data and they're and they're applying algorithms and they're doing things with it that are not good for society.

No individual, You make a good point. I think about tim and I have talked about this, Like I've done panels with top you know tech execs over the last decade where they're like, yeah, my kid doesn't like have a have a phone, doesn't have a lot like you know, they limited their use their access because they understood. Having said that, So, is there too much money though, wrapped up in the space right now? People who do make the money on the clicks, whether it's good or bad information that how do we how do we get away from that? How do we change that without that lobbying or money behind it to keep it going. Well, so we have about a minute and then we'll come back and talk more.

No individual, You make a good point. I think about tim and I have talked about this, Like I've done panels with top you know tech execs over the last decade where they're like, yeah, my kid doesn't like have a have a phone, doesn't have a lot like you know, they limited their use their access because they understood. Having said that, So, is there too much money though, wrapped up in the space right now? People who do make the money on the clicks, whether it's good or bad information that how do we how do we get away from that? How do we change that without that lobbying or money behind it to keep it going. Well, so we have about a minute and then we'll come back and talk more.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, let's first of all, I would hope your listeners would take a couple of hours of their precious time and read the book or go to you know, our Biggest fight dot com and learn about how they can get involved and learn in a little bit more detail how this works, but I'm happy to get into more detail after the break.

Well, let's first of all, I would hope your listeners would take a couple of hours of their precious time and read the book or go to you know, our Biggest fight dot com and learn about how they can get involved and learn in a little bit more detail how this works, but I'm happy to get into more detail after the break.

But I'm saying, but, like, is there too much money behind it? The existing structure these tech companies that are so dominant in our world, and definitely, you know, have the ear of policy.

But I'm saying, but, like, is there too much money behind it? The existing structure these tech companies that are so dominant in our world, and definitely, you know, have the ear of policy.

Maybe we definitely need to create an ecosystem, a commercial ecosystem that will be bigger and better than.

Maybe we definitely need to create an ecosystem, a commercial ecosystem that will be bigger and better than.

What we have.

What we have.

We know that data is valuable, right, these the biggest five of these companies are worth eleven trillion dollars, So nobody can say that data isn't valuable anymore. So now let's rethink what that economy looks like going forward, and let's unlock the innovation and ingenuity of Americans, right and actually build something that's healthy.

We know that data is valuable, right, these the biggest five of these companies are worth eleven trillion dollars, So nobody can say that data isn't valuable anymore. So now let's rethink what that economy looks like going forward, and let's unlock the innovation and ingenuity of Americans, right and actually build something that's healthy.

Now, we've talked about these digital doh CAAs that are being built on all of us, and it is incredibly value and then so what's our that's our data? Do we get some piece of that or some control over that? Good idea right in the future. Absolutely, like sign me up. We're not gonna let them go anywhere. We're gonna come back with Frank Mcourt, Junior chairman of M Court Global, Founder and executive chairman of Project liberty, and we want to get to some points for those who are listening about what they can do maybe change this if they are interested. And his new Biggest or his new book, Our Biggest Fight Reclaiming Liberty, Humanity and Dignity in the Digital a. We're going to get back to that conversation in just a moment.

Now, we've talked about these digital doh CAAs that are being built on all of us, and it is incredibly value and then so what's our that's our data? Do we get some piece of that or some control over that? Good idea right in the future. Absolutely, like sign me up. We're not gonna let them go anywhere. We're gonna come back with Frank Mcourt, Junior chairman of M Court Global, Founder and executive chairman of Project liberty, and we want to get to some points for those who are listening about what they can do maybe change this if they are interested. And his new Biggest or his new book, Our Biggest Fight Reclaiming Liberty, Humanity and Dignity in the Digital a. We're going to get back to that conversation in just a moment.

We're still here with Frank McCourt, junior chairman of McCourt Global. He's also the executive chairman and founder of Project Liberty new book Our Biggest Fight Reclaiming Liberty, Humanity and Dignity in the Digital Age. Frank, you're obviously so passionate about this, and I've got to ask do you have any sort of dog in the fight here?

We're still here with Frank McCourt, junior chairman of McCourt Global. He's also the executive chairman and founder of Project Liberty new book Our Biggest Fight Reclaiming Liberty, Humanity and Dignity in the Digital Age. Frank, you're obviously so passionate about this, and I've got to ask do you have any sort of dog in the fight here?

Like there?

Like there?

Do you have any sort of financial interest in creating a more open Internet.

Do you have any sort of financial interest in creating a more open Internet.

I hope that our tech people will eventually build things in this new world with millions of other people. But our focus right now has been to put forward a piece of infrastructure, public digital infrastructure at we'll call it a protocol level piece called DSNP, which we've gifted to the world. It's basically like Tim Bernersley gifted HGT. No one should own the Internet or own our relationships. That's the point we're trying to make here, and then we can all build on it. I would also add that we need to be creating a commercial ecosystem here that people will.

I hope that our tech people will eventually build things in this new world with millions of other people. But our focus right now has been to put forward a piece of infrastructure, public digital infrastructure at we'll call it a protocol level piece called DSNP, which we've gifted to the world. It's basically like Tim Bernersley gifted HGT. No one should own the Internet or own our relationships. That's the point we're trying to make here, and then we can all build on it. I would also add that we need to be creating a commercial ecosystem here that people will.

Build on or all.

Build on or all.

This just is a nice idea that will never happen because these are huge, huge platforms. So I think, you know, we're sitting back and I'm seeing and feeling the same things that you all are about. Something's wrong. We're seeing the harms to kids. We're seeing our information ecosystem is completely contaminated. We're seeing democracy struggle. So we need to fix this. And so normally you go to these big tech CEOs and say, the problems are obvious, we've had hearings after hearing fix it. They haven't and they're not incentivized to fix it in the pre digital world. Then you go to your elected officials, you know, you go to Congress and say, look at the harms. You need to regulate this or have some new policies. We've seen now for several years it's theater.

This just is a nice idea that will never happen because these are huge, huge platforms. So I think, you know, we're sitting back and I'm seeing and feeling the same things that you all are about. Something's wrong. We're seeing the harms to kids. We're seeing our information ecosystem is completely contaminated. We're seeing democracy struggle. So we need to fix this. And so normally you go to these big tech CEOs and say, the problems are obvious, we've had hearings after hearing fix it. They haven't and they're not incentivized to fix it in the pre digital world. Then you go to your elected officials, you know, you go to Congress and say, look at the harms. You need to regulate this or have some new policies. We've seen now for several years it's theater.

Right.

Right.

People show up, there's these big hearings, and Zuckerberg and the rest show up, and then nothing happens. Why our politics is impacted by this very same technology that just polarizes everybody and causes that paralysis.

People show up, there's these big hearings, and Zuckerberg and the rest show up, and then nothing happens. Why our politics is impacted by this very same technology that just polarizes everybody and causes that paralysis.

Well, that's it feels like that. I mean, it feels like every opportunity for a lawmaker to do something outrageous is an opportunity of them to create a click and raise money.

Well, that's it feels like that. I mean, it feels like every opportunity for a lawmaker to do something outrageous is an opportunity of them to create a click and raise money.

Well, the whole thing that's going on with TikTok. I keep asking the question is it politics or policy that people are concerned about, And it just feels like people aren't concerned about politically what they can say and how it looks. TikTok ban. Should we ban it?

Well, the whole thing that's going on with TikTok. I keep asking the question is it politics or policy that people are concerned about, And it just feels like people aren't concerned about politically what they can say and how it looks. TikTok ban. Should we ban it?

Well, TikTok for sure is a problem for two reasons. One is again this surveillance aspect of it, where it's collecting all of our information and in TikTok's case, exporting it. Right, this is now the Chinese Communist Party has all this information on all these all of US American citizens. Of course that shouldn't happen. But the other point I want to make is the model of this extractive, exploitive, predatory technology where we're being essentially surveiled and our information is being scraped, is the same model that American apps are using, such as such as Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and Google and Amazon and so forth. It's all about our social graph, which is essentially all of our personal data. And that doesn't it doesn't just mean where we shop or buy shoes. It's everything.

Well, TikTok for sure is a problem for two reasons. One is again this surveillance aspect of it, where it's collecting all of our information and in TikTok's case, exporting it. Right, this is now the Chinese Communist Party has all this information on all these all of US American citizens. Of course that shouldn't happen. But the other point I want to make is the model of this extractive, exploitive, predatory technology where we're being essentially surveiled and our information is being scraped, is the same model that American apps are using, such as such as Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and Google and Amazon and so forth. It's all about our social graph, which is essentially all of our personal data. And that doesn't it doesn't just mean where we shop or buy shoes. It's everything.

Mark Zuckerberg has talked about this for years. He's used that term publicly, the social graph. I mean, he tried to get it sort of an iteration of it to take off in the Facebook news feed gosh back in like twenty twelve.

Mark Zuckerberg has talked about this for years. He's used that term publicly, the social graph. I mean, he tried to get it sort of an iteration of it to take off in the Facebook news feed gosh back in like twenty twelve.

But how do you get away from it even in the platform that you are offering up, Because in a digital world, doesn't something live somewhere always?

But how do you get away from it even in the platform that you are offering up, Because in a digital world, doesn't something live somewhere always?

So yeah, that's a great, a great question. First of all, I'm not offering up a platform. I'm offering up a roadmap.

So yeah, that's a great, a great question. First of all, I'm not offering up a platform. I'm offering up a roadmap.

Okay.

Okay.

And the title of the book is not my biggest fight, it's our biggest fight. This is not going to happen unless we bring really millions of people into this conversation. And so what we're suggesting is we have a problem with the infrastrucure. Look, I'm a fifth generation builder. We build infrastructure. We have an infrastructure or engineering problem that we can fix and then build great stuff on it. But if we don't fix the tech we're going to continually be spending all of our time and precious you know, precious time, precious, precious tax money and resources and so forth on putting out.

And the title of the book is not my biggest fight, it's our biggest fight. This is not going to happen unless we bring really millions of people into this conversation. And so what we're suggesting is we have a problem with the infrastrucure. Look, I'm a fifth generation builder. We build infrastructure. We have an infrastructure or engineering problem that we can fix and then build great stuff on it. But if we don't fix the tech we're going to continually be spending all of our time and precious you know, precious time, precious, precious tax money and resources and so forth on putting out.

These fires and mitigating damage.

These fires and mitigating damage.

Why not just fix the problem and then go start solving the other problems that the Americans want to see solved. So we need now not just to have a tech project, and Project Liberty is also a project that brings in civil society and brings in social scientists so that the next generation of the Internet is not just designed by technologists.

Why not just fix the problem and then go start solving the other problems that the Americans want to see solved. So we need now not just to have a tech project, and Project Liberty is also a project that brings in civil society and brings in social scientists so that the next generation of the Internet is not just designed by technologists.

Do you think this problem can be solved with the free market alone or the government needs to get involved?

Do you think this problem can be solved with the free market alone or the government needs to get involved?

Another great question. I think we can definitely solve the tech problem with the free market alone, and we can build out the new and improved Internet, let's call it the improved Internet.

Another great question. I think we can definitely solve the tech problem with the free market alone, and we can build out the new and improved Internet, let's call it the improved Internet.

And that's a David and Goliath story, because you're talking about a startup essentially going against the biggest companies in the world.

And that's a David and Goliath story, because you're talking about a startup essentially going against the biggest companies in the world.

Like, I like our chances if it's millions of people getting involved here. I don't like our chances if it's a little I like if it's an a David against the Goliath story, I don't like our chances if it's a million Davids against the glias, we will change this, and so I think this all can be changed eventually. We will want some that once people see that there's an alternative to this, it doesn't have to be this way. Then I think the government will step in because they'll have to to make sure they facilitate that.

Like, I like our chances if it's millions of people getting involved here. I don't like our chances if it's a little I like if it's an a David against the Goliath story, I don't like our chances if it's a million Davids against the glias, we will change this, and so I think this all can be changed eventually. We will want some that once people see that there's an alternative to this, it doesn't have to be this way. Then I think the government will step in because they'll have to to make sure they facilitate that.

Frank do you feel like the Europeans are leading kind of already on this way? Like I do feel like when it comes to social media, even AI, there were some stuff that came out, I mean, the kind of going in the right direction or not necessarily.

Frank do you feel like the Europeans are leading kind of already on this way? Like I do feel like when it comes to social media, even AI, there were some stuff that came out, I mean, the kind of going in the right direction or not necessarily.

I think that they're they're they're they're leading from the vantage point of being able to take public policy objectives and reduce them to law or regulation. So they have they have passed regulations like GDPR, d m A, d s A, and they just passed the law about artificial intelligence. However, those regulations and laws are not really changing much because they're dependent on these platforms that we're referring to, mostly American existing platforms, so they're kind of stuck. That we need rather than try to have policies that impact the tech, we need to have the tech designed to actually optimize for what we want the society to optimize for. Shouldn't we be optimizing for strong democracy. Shouldn't we be optimizing for protecting young kids? Why would we have crazy, you know, technology that's running rampant over these things and then have to go I'm going to go.

I think that they're they're they're they're leading from the vantage point of being able to take public policy objectives and reduce them to law or regulation. So they have they have passed regulations like GDPR, d m A, d s A, and they just passed the law about artificial intelligence. However, those regulations and laws are not really changing much because they're dependent on these platforms that we're referring to, mostly American existing platforms, so they're kind of stuck. That we need rather than try to have policies that impact the tech, we need to have the tech designed to actually optimize for what we want the society to optimize for. Shouldn't we be optimizing for strong democracy. Shouldn't we be optimizing for protecting young kids? Why would we have crazy, you know, technology that's running rampant over these things and then have to go I'm going to go.

Off on a crazy thing, and then we'll come back and talk some more. But I think about we live in a country where we talk about gun legislation and we have shooting after shooting after shooting, and we say every time, Okay, this is going to change something, and it doesn't. So it makes me a little concerned whether or not we can get that public momentum.

Off on a crazy thing, and then we'll come back and talk some more. But I think about we live in a country where we talk about gun legislation and we have shooting after shooting after shooting, and we say every time, Okay, this is going to change something, and it doesn't. So it makes me a little concerned whether or not we can get that public momentum.

I would just say quickly, we have technology that's designed so that we don't solve those problems. Well, we won't solve climate change, we won't solve the immigration issue, we won't solve the gun violence issue, because the technology is designed to keep us in a constant state of fifty to fifty four and.

I would just say quickly, we have technology that's designed so that we don't solve those problems. Well, we won't solve climate change, we won't solve the immigration issue, we won't solve the gun violence issue, because the technology is designed to keep us in a constant state of fifty to fifty four and.

Against Yeah, and in a vacuum where we just kind of continue to hear. We've only got about two minutes. Tell us what you would like to leave our audience with.

Against Yeah, and in a vacuum where we just kind of continue to hear. We've only got about two minutes. Tell us what you would like to leave our audience with.

First of all, I'd like them too as I said earlier, take a couple hours read the book Our Biggest Fight, and I've tried to write it in accessible language, and it's not a long book. I actually used Thomas pain as my inspiration, the guy that wrote Common Sense in seventeen seventy five, right, and he said, you.

First of all, I'd like them too as I said earlier, take a couple hours read the book Our Biggest Fight, and I've tried to write it in accessible language, and it's not a long book. I actually used Thomas pain as my inspiration, the guy that wrote Common Sense in seventeen seventy five, right, and he said, you.

Have a choice.

Have a choice.

You can either be a subject or a citizen. Well, we have that choice again. We can need to be subjects to these big platforms, or we can actually be digital citizens where we own and control our data, which means we own and control ourselves in the digital world. There's no biological us and digital us. We're one and the same. So that's so please read the book, Please go to Our Biggest Fight dot com and learn more, and so forth. But if there's one thing I could ask people to do right now, it would be other than that. It would be socialize this issue. Talk about this issue. I know there are millions of people out there seeing and feeling the same thing I am and you are. And so let's get it to the kitchen table. Let's get it to the sideline of the soccer game, the kids soccer game. Let's get it to the into your school, into the school board, into the the parents in schools. Let's get it to talk about it after church. Let's let's socialize this issue, because I think we're going to find that millions and millions of people once they realize how their data is being used and how it's being turned to hurt them and harm them and harm their kids, they're going to be outraged and they're going to demand change if we.

You can either be a subject or a citizen. Well, we have that choice again. We can need to be subjects to these big platforms, or we can actually be digital citizens where we own and control our data, which means we own and control ourselves in the digital world. There's no biological us and digital us. We're one and the same. So that's so please read the book, Please go to Our Biggest Fight dot com and learn more, and so forth. But if there's one thing I could ask people to do right now, it would be other than that. It would be socialize this issue. Talk about this issue. I know there are millions of people out there seeing and feeling the same thing I am and you are. And so let's get it to the kitchen table. Let's get it to the sideline of the soccer game, the kids soccer game. Let's get it to the into your school, into the school board, into the the parents in schools. Let's get it to talk about it after church. Let's let's socialize this issue, because I think we're going to find that millions and millions of people once they realize how their data is being used and how it's being turned to hurt them and harm them and harm their kids, they're going to be outraged and they're going to demand change if we.

Don't do this. Thirty seconds left, what happens.

Don't do this. Thirty seconds left, what happens.

Well, we're seeing what's happening right with artificial with generative AI. This is the same technology which is taking our data, these machines ingesting it right and applying quote artificial intelligence algorithms to it to go ahead and create all this stuff. And we see some of the stuff coming out as wacky, right because garbage in, garbage out. I say, let's let's not have the machines drag us into a future we don't want. Let's get the tech right, put individuals back in charge, and then build great tech that will be better for the next generation than generations.

Well, we're seeing what's happening right with artificial with generative AI. This is the same technology which is taking our data, these machines ingesting it right and applying quote artificial intelligence algorithms to it to go ahead and create all this stuff. And we see some of the stuff coming out as wacky, right because garbage in, garbage out. I say, let's let's not have the machines drag us into a future we don't want. Let's get the tech right, put individuals back in charge, and then build great tech that will be better for the next generation than generations.

After open door come back anytime.

After open door come back anytime.

I would love to thanks for your time.

I would love to thanks for your time.

Frank McCourt, Junior chairman and McCort Global founder and executive chair of Project Liberty are his new book, Our Biggest Fight is out now.

Frank McCourt, Junior chairman and McCort Global founder and executive chair of Project Liberty are his new book, Our Biggest Fight is out now.

Speaking of retail, we talked about what's happening at Dollar Trade just now. We talked about icating higher income consumers. It plans to include products that costs up to seven dollars. The stock fel today because they're closing about one thousand stores. Also, Carol retail sales for February. We're going to get those tomorrow. They're likely to rebound after adverse weather and unfavorable seasonal adjustment factors. Wait on January figures. That comes from analysts over at Bloomberg Economics.

Speaking of retail, we talked about what's happening at Dollar Trade just now. We talked about icating higher income consumers. It plans to include products that costs up to seven dollars. The stock fel today because they're closing about one thousand stores. Also, Carol retail sales for February. We're going to get those tomorrow. They're likely to rebound after adverse weather and unfavorable seasonal adjustment factors. Wait on January figures. That comes from analysts over at Bloomberg Economics.

Listen, We've got a great guest to talk about the retail environment and how the consumer is doing. Julie Van Allen is chief revenue officer over at Racketin. It's the technology conglomerate. You know them well. They offer cash back to consumers for shopping eight hours of the company. By the way, that train the US are up more than twenty percent year to date. Julie, great to have you here with Tim and myself. Let's start. We like size and scope, we like going broad to begin here, and let's do that. How are consumers doing and what specifically are you seeing in terms of spending activities in your purview and on your site.

Listen, We've got a great guest to talk about the retail environment and how the consumer is doing. Julie Van Allen is chief revenue officer over at Racketin. It's the technology conglomerate. You know them well. They offer cash back to consumers for shopping eight hours of the company. By the way, that train the US are up more than twenty percent year to date. Julie, great to have you here with Tim and myself. Let's start. We like size and scope, we like going broad to begin here, and let's do that. How are consumers doing and what specifically are you seeing in terms of spending activities in your purview and on your site.

Well, first, thanks for having me, Carolyn Tam. Always love being with you guys. I mean, the trend continues where we've got to wake up every day and see what's going on. It is still our moment is still that of pivoting and understanding what is the consumer doing today? And what I can say is that inflation continues to increase, as we all know, particularly in areas that impact the consumer gas, energy, rent prices, and that really highlights a potentially negative impact on retailers as these consumers effectively look to save money. Now, saving money can come in all sorts of different forms.

Well, first, thanks for having me, Carolyn Tam. Always love being with you guys. I mean, the trend continues where we've got to wake up every day and see what's going on. It is still our moment is still that of pivoting and understanding what is the consumer doing today? And what I can say is that inflation continues to increase, as we all know, particularly in areas that impact the consumer gas, energy, rent prices, and that really highlights a potentially negative impact on retailers as these consumers effectively look to save money. Now, saving money can come in all sorts of different forms.

As we know, Rackutan offers a.

As we know, Rackutan offers a.

Really valuable offering to our retailers and brands by way of giving value to consumers as cash back. Right, so we're very well positioned for a moment like this that we're calling, you know, cautiously out shopping last year is what we're seeing on our platform, largely driven the fact that consumers do still seem to be interested in spending, and from what we see actually out spending last year, but very much associated with categories and brands who are offering them the value that they're looking for.

Really valuable offering to our retailers and brands by way of giving value to consumers as cash back. Right, so we're very well positioned for a moment like this that we're calling, you know, cautiously out shopping last year is what we're seeing on our platform, largely driven the fact that consumers do still seem to be interested in spending, and from what we see actually out spending last year, but very much associated with categories and brands who are offering them the value that they're looking for.

What are some of those categories? What are some of those brands If you can dig a little deeper into the data.

What are some of those categories? What are some of those brands If you can dig a little deeper into the data.

Here, Yeah, if I'm to look for some correlations here, it's a lot to do with what brands are offering the consumer. So Racketin's own data shows a really positive and exciting correlation between categories who have adopted an increased level of cash back versus last year, and then the subsequent increased average order value or the amount of trips that a shopper is taking to their store the frequency that those shoppers are taking in their store. So, if we dig a little bit deeper, the categories who have really leaned in heavily understanding that the consumer of toad is looking for value and who have increased cash back rates over last year. We see the pets category doing extremely well, having grown over one hundred percent in trips year over year. We also see appliances in hardware. They're seeing an increase of ten percent in trips here over year, but an increase of twelve percent in average order value, which is an incredible outcome. Right to see an increase of order value in the amount that consumers are spending with you, even more than they're visiting, just by way of spending a little bit extra to give them a reward. Marketplace is also doing extremely well Home and garden and travel is a real standout because typically Q one is a very promotional period for travel, and they spend quite a lot to lower consumers their way in Q one anyway, and this Q one has kind of not been too different, except there's even more leaning into those higher cash back rates to achieve the high price point purchases that they're looking for. And the travel has increased twenty two percent year over year for US in terms of trips.

Here, Yeah, if I'm to look for some correlations here, it's a lot to do with what brands are offering the consumer. So Racketin's own data shows a really positive and exciting correlation between categories who have adopted an increased level of cash back versus last year, and then the subsequent increased average order value or the amount of trips that a shopper is taking to their store the frequency that those shoppers are taking in their store. So, if we dig a little bit deeper, the categories who have really leaned in heavily understanding that the consumer of toad is looking for value and who have increased cash back rates over last year. We see the pets category doing extremely well, having grown over one hundred percent in trips year over year. We also see appliances in hardware. They're seeing an increase of ten percent in trips here over year, but an increase of twelve percent in average order value, which is an incredible outcome. Right to see an increase of order value in the amount that consumers are spending with you, even more than they're visiting, just by way of spending a little bit extra to give them a reward. Marketplace is also doing extremely well Home and garden and travel is a real standout because typically Q one is a very promotional period for travel, and they spend quite a lot to lower consumers their way in Q one anyway, and this Q one has kind of not been too different, except there's even more leaning into those higher cash back rates to achieve the high price point purchases that they're looking for. And the travel has increased twenty two percent year over year for US in terms of trips.

So, Julie, help me understand here. So when you say they're leaning in more to get that spend, I guess in their basket to get the cash back. So does that mean the retailer is in or or who's ever offering up the deal is in the driver's seat, or is the consumer in the driver's seat because they're pushing for a better and better deal because they kind of need to.

So, Julie, help me understand here. So when you say they're leaning in more to get that spend, I guess in their basket to get the cash back. So does that mean the retailer is in or or who's ever offering up the deal is in the driver's seat, or is the consumer in the driver's seat because they're pushing for a better and better deal because they kind of need to.

Well, it's a great question, and it's two sides of the same coin. You know, I think the consumers are if you look at this data. They're very clearly saying, I have the money, and I will buy from retailers and brands who are willing to deliver me value. And I think the categories and brands who are doing well like the data we just reviewed, are the ones who are listening to that message and are reacting by offering higher cash back rates because it really is within their power, the brand and the retailer's power to use racketon to offer more cash back to their shoppers.

Well, it's a great question, and it's two sides of the same coin. You know, I think the consumers are if you look at this data. They're very clearly saying, I have the money, and I will buy from retailers and brands who are willing to deliver me value. And I think the categories and brands who are doing well like the data we just reviewed, are the ones who are listening to that message and are reacting by offering higher cash back rates because it really is within their power, the brand and the retailer's power to use racketon to offer more cash back to their shoppers.

What typically happens if you go back? I mean, I know the data. The data changes year to year because more people presumably use the product. But what typically precedes a slowdown in consumer spending? Like, what are the signals that you could be looking for right now in the data that you have that would say, okay, well, the economy is indeed slowing down.

What typically happens if you go back? I mean, I know the data. The data changes year to year because more people presumably use the product. But what typically precedes a slowdown in consumer spending? Like, what are the signals that you could be looking for right now in the data that you have that would say, okay, well, the economy is indeed slowing down.

I think that in a time like this, right, the power of something like cash back is that it is a lever for good times and challenging times economically. Right, So, even in good economic times, cash back is a great lever to ensure that brands can continue to keep their.

I think that in a time like this, right, the power of something like cash back is that it is a lever for good times and challenging times economically. Right, So, even in good economic times, cash back is a great lever to ensure that brands can continue to keep their.

Loyal shoppers loyal. That's what we do as a brand.

Loyal shoppers loyal. That's what we do as a brand.

So there are use cases in any moment from an economic standpoint. But I would say, which is something that we're not seeing today, is that if you are in a challenged economic moment where inflation continues, and you have a brand like Racketon who has an offering that allows retailers to provide the value to the shoppers that they're looking for and that isn't working, that would probably be a sign that consumers really are pulling back.

So there are use cases in any moment from an economic standpoint. But I would say, which is something that we're not seeing today, is that if you are in a challenged economic moment where inflation continues, and you have a brand like Racketon who has an offering that allows retailers to provide the value to the shoppers that they're looking for and that isn't working, that would probably be a sign that consumers really are pulling back.

But we see the exact opposite that versus last year.

But we see the exact opposite that versus last year.

Brands are investing and shoppers are responding and outspending.

Brands are investing and shoppers are responding and outspending.

So that's interesting. So if I asked you, then Okay, you're looking at the data points that you guys see every day, right, you can easily kind of tap into that. What's going on your outlook? Then, though, if we can kind of pull it out on discretionary spending, especially as we do see it feels like increasingly shoppers trading for value. And I'm going to say, just walking around in my world, I'm seeing like deals and promotions that I feel like I wasn't seeing before. So what's your outlook on the discretion discretionary spend?

So that's interesting. So if I asked you, then Okay, you're looking at the data points that you guys see every day, right, you can easily kind of tap into that. What's going on your outlook? Then, though, if we can kind of pull it out on discretionary spending, especially as we do see it feels like increasingly shoppers trading for value. And I'm going to say, just walking around in my world, I'm seeing like deals and promotions that I feel like I wasn't seeing before. So what's your outlook on the discretion discretionary spend?

I think it's clearly there.

I think it's clearly there.

You know, you see in a lot of these these categories high spend arenas, whether it's appliances, travel, so the AOV is high, the spend.

You know, you see in a lot of these these categories high spend arenas, whether it's appliances, travel, so the AOV is high, the spend.

Is there if the right value is being delivered.

Is there if the right value is being delivered.

But you know, I think you you ask an interesting question that makes me think about a category that isn't performing terribly well right now across the retail landscape, which is luxury.

But you know, I think you you ask an interesting question that makes me think about a category that isn't performing terribly well right now across the retail landscape, which is luxury.

We saw last week Matches Fashion shutting.

We saw last week Matches Fashion shutting.

Down and it's a real nod to the rising acquisition costs and finding new consumers to shop that has been going on for years now, Facebook, Google, Those acquisition costs have been getting so expensive. And then you see these brands that we're you know, partnering with Matches and the like cutting wholesales that they can invest more in their direct to consumers site.

Down and it's a real nod to the rising acquisition costs and finding new consumers to shop that has been going on for years now, Facebook, Google, Those acquisition costs have been getting so expensive. And then you see these brands that we're you know, partnering with Matches and the like cutting wholesales that they can invest more in their direct to consumers site.

So we only have we only have thirty seconds left. How are retailers thinking of customer acquisition costs? And then and also does how does your company fit into that strategy? Just thirty seconds?

So we only have we only have thirty seconds left. How are retailers thinking of customer acquisition costs? And then and also does how does your company fit into that strategy? Just thirty seconds?

Yeah, I mean everybody needs to be thinking about who's next on their pathway and younger shoppers are looking for the same value, and it doesn't devalue a brand to offer something like cash back which is looked at as a savvy shoppers weapon to be able to buy what they're looking for.

Yeah, I mean everybody needs to be thinking about who's next on their pathway and younger shoppers are looking for the same value, and it doesn't devalue a brand to offer something like cash back which is looked at as a savvy shoppers weapon to be able to buy what they're looking for.

So, retailers, the folks that you deal with and who want to partner with you, is that widening out?

So, retailers, the folks that you deal with and who want to partner with you, is that widening out?

I would say absolutely, and you'll see that on our site in the coming months. And I'm sure others as arenas like Luxury are really looking for the next generation of loyalists.

I would say absolutely, and you'll see that on our site in the coming months. And I'm sure others as arenas like Luxury are really looking for the next generation of loyalists.

All right, We're going to leave it in that note. Hey, Julie, thank you so much. Great to check in with you once again. Julie Vannel and she's the chief revenue officer over at Rakaton. Joining us of course on Zoom from New York City

All right, We're going to leave it in that note. Hey, Julie, thank you so much. Great to check in with you once again. Julie Vannel and she's the chief revenue officer over at Rakaton. Joining us of course on Zoom from New York City