Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek inside from the reporters and editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio.

Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek inside from the reporters and editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio.

Well Mark Zuckerberg inspired his latest salvo in the AI wars. Just today, Meta Platforms unveiled the largest open source AI model ever. It's called Lama three point one. The company is also updating its meta AI service, built as a rival too chat GPT, and in.

Well Mark Zuckerberg inspired his latest salvo in the AI wars. Just today, Meta Platforms unveiled the largest open source AI model ever. It's called Lama three point one. The company is also updating its meta AI service, built as a rival too chat GPT, and in.

An exclusive interview with Bloomberg's Emily Chang, the Meta CEO and founder opened up about his strategy and why he believes it's superior to competitors such as Open ai and Google. Bloomberg Original's host and executive producer Emily Chang joining us now from our San Francisco bureau.

An exclusive interview with Bloomberg's Emily Chang, the Meta CEO and founder opened up about his strategy and why he believes it's superior to competitors such as Open ai and Google. Bloomberg Original's host and executive producer Emily Chang joining us now from our San Francisco bureau.

Emily spoke to Mark Zuckerberg for the circuit.

Emily spoke to Mark Zuckerberg for the circuit.

It is a Bloomberg Original series and it's hosted by her, where she goes behind the scenes with founders, executives, and innovators. Sometimes gets to wear pink high heels, but I'm not going to talk about.

It is a Bloomberg Original series and it's hosted by her, where she goes behind the scenes with founders, executives, and innovators. Sometimes gets to wear pink high heels, but I'm not going to talk about.

That right now. Good to have you back with us.

That right now. Good to have you back with us.

Mark Zuckerberg, Man, when we think about big megacap tech companies, that is certainly one of them in a big way.

Mark Zuckerberg, Man, when we think about big megacap tech companies, that is certainly one of them in a big way.

AI sounds like it was top of mind for you guys.

AI sounds like it was top of mind for you guys.

Well, AI is their big news today, and Mark has been really excited about this new model, the biggest open source model ever. He says, it takes it to another level, like you can think about it like a teacher, and it will teach all the other models, smaller models below it. And so you know, getting to this milestone was a really big deal for them. They've obviously invested billions of dollars to get here and to try to catch up to open Ai and Google. So the interesting thing is they're really coming from behind. But what he thinks is with by the next update, they're going to completely have closed the gap. So you know, it was a really rare opportunity to sit down with him and talk about out his vision. And you know, I've met him, I've interviewed him over the years. I'd also say, you know, he seems a lot more comfortable in his own skin and just like answering questions more more directly and and that was really refreshing. I thought, I thought we got to see a more more real, more human.

Well, AI is their big news today, and Mark has been really excited about this new model, the biggest open source model ever. He says, it takes it to another level, like you can think about it like a teacher, and it will teach all the other models, smaller models below it. And so you know, getting to this milestone was a really big deal for them. They've obviously invested billions of dollars to get here and to try to catch up to open Ai and Google. So the interesting thing is they're really coming from behind. But what he thinks is with by the next update, they're going to completely have closed the gap. So you know, it was a really rare opportunity to sit down with him and talk about out his vision. And you know, I've met him, I've interviewed him over the years. I'd also say, you know, he seems a lot more comfortable in his own skin and just like answering questions more more directly and and that was really refreshing. I thought, I thought we got to see a more more real, more human.

Side of him.

Side of him.

Okay, Emily, I want to talk about Lama. I want to talk about Ai, but really what I want to talk about. Yeah, so think it's so fun. I mean it's like it's it's I think it's easier than regular surfing. I don't know if how you felt about it. You they talked in the you talked in the program. Got how you were from Hawaii? You got you got up there and you wakesurf. We're looking at pictures right now.

Okay, Emily, I want to talk about Lama. I want to talk about Ai, but really what I want to talk about. Yeah, so think it's so fun. I mean it's like it's it's I think it's easier than regular surfing. I don't know if how you felt about it. You they talked in the you talked in the program. Got how you were from Hawaii? You got you got up there and you wakesurf. We're looking at pictures right now.

You're looking at me wiping out. No, come go wiping out again, wiping out again. Yeah, I think we're going to show you the climax here.

You're looking at me wiping out. No, come go wiping out again, wiping out again. Yeah, I think we're going to show you the climax here.

So look it was I'm from Hawaii, so I have surfed before, but I'm not a surfer. Wakesurfing is a totally different thing.

So look it was I'm from Hawaii, so I have surfed before, but I'm not a surfer. Wakesurfing is a totally different thing.

It was hard.

It was hard.

But actually Mark and Priscilla joined us as well. Was a good teacher and he was super patient with me.

But actually Mark and Priscilla joined us as well. Was a good teacher and he was super patient with me.

Which you know, what did.

Which you know, what did.

You what did you throw to What did you throw to him?

You what did you throw to What did you throw to him?

Was it a beer through a lacroix? It was a la croix. We were we were non alcoholic on this journey. But there, look, I did it.

Was it a beer through a lacroix? It was a la croix. We were we were non alcoholic on this journey. But there, look, I did it.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm talking about.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm talking about.

And you know it was it was brief, but hey, it happened. And and I think the fact that he was willing to have us at his home and to show us this side of himself, you know, shows a lot about his evolution as a leader and sort of where he's at and just sort of being you know, confident and comfortable in his own skin. But we also talked about how all these different side quests, you know, as you know, it's not just wake surfing, but he's doing Mma and jiu jitsu, and he learned Mandarin, and he's growing you know, his own wagu beef cows and phoebe the macnuts in Kawhi, but you know, all of these other pursuits. He just has a ton of energy, at least that's what Priscilla says, and do all of these other things enables him to focus. But the thing he loves most doing still, he says, is building and that means the next generation of AI.

And you know it was it was brief, but hey, it happened. And and I think the fact that he was willing to have us at his home and to show us this side of himself, you know, shows a lot about his evolution as a leader and sort of where he's at and just sort of being you know, confident and comfortable in his own skin. But we also talked about how all these different side quests, you know, as you know, it's not just wake surfing, but he's doing Mma and jiu jitsu, and he learned Mandarin, and he's growing you know, his own wagu beef cows and phoebe the macnuts in Kawhi, but you know, all of these other pursuits. He just has a ton of energy, at least that's what Priscilla says, and do all of these other things enables him to focus. But the thing he loves most doing still, he says, is building and that means the next generation of AI.

Well, before we get to that, because we do have a clip from the show in your conversation Emily, Why do you think he was so open to showing everything? As you said, You've had many conversations over the years, this was a different side you felt like, or that he was much more comfortable in his skin. Why do you think he's ready to kind of reveal that. Is that just being older and kind of living life a little bit more.

Well, before we get to that, because we do have a clip from the show in your conversation Emily, Why do you think he was so open to showing everything? As you said, You've had many conversations over the years, this was a different side you felt like, or that he was much more comfortable in his skin. Why do you think he's ready to kind of reveal that. Is that just being older and kind of living life a little bit more.

Yeah, I think it's just a matter of time. You know, he talked about how when he started the company twenty years ago, I mean it was twenty years ago that he was sort of thrust into the spotlight. He just said, I didn't know anything about running a company, and I would totally mess up in interviews, and then when I messed up, I would get all this negative feedback, and then I would claim up and I just wouldn't want to talk to anyone.

Yeah, I think it's just a matter of time. You know, he talked about how when he started the company twenty years ago, I mean it was twenty years ago that he was sort of thrust into the spotlight. He just said, I didn't know anything about running a company, and I would totally mess up in interviews, and then when I messed up, I would get all this negative feedback, and then I would claim up and I just wouldn't want to talk to anyone.

And over time he's just.

And over time he's just.

Gotten a lot more comfortable and confident saying what he thinks. And he said, if people don't like it, that's fine.

Gotten a lot more comfortable and confident saying what he thinks. And he said, if people don't like it, that's fine.

And if people like it, great, Like you judge for yourself.

And if people like it, great, Like you judge for yourself.

This is who I am. And you know, one of the other interesting things is, you know we've talked about Jeff Bezos has has left Amazon, Larry and SERGEI have left Google's Google there you know, are these other big tech founders who have taken a step back. I didn't get the sense that that was happening at all. Like Mark Zuckerberg is not going anywhere. You know, he just turned forty. He seems to have more energy than ever, and he's really excited about the next ten to fifteen years building out this AI vision, along with the metaverse and augmented and virtual reality.

This is who I am. And you know, one of the other interesting things is, you know we've talked about Jeff Bezos has has left Amazon, Larry and SERGEI have left Google's Google there you know, are these other big tech founders who have taken a step back. I didn't get the sense that that was happening at all. Like Mark Zuckerberg is not going anywhere. You know, he just turned forty. He seems to have more energy than ever, and he's really excited about the next ten to fifteen years building out this AI vision, along with the metaverse and augmented and virtual reality.

All of that is still a.

All of that is still a.

Thing, but he says in the next ten to fifteen years then the next platform will emerge, and building is what makes him the most happy.

Thing, but he says in the next ten to fifteen years then the next platform will emerge, and building is what makes him the most happy.

Well, speaking of that AI vision, here's Mark Zuckerberg from your interview on the Circuit on controlling his AI destiny. Check it out.

Well, speaking of that AI vision, here's Mark Zuckerberg from your interview on the Circuit on controlling his AI destiny. Check it out.

Some people see you as an unlikely champion of open source today you're laughing.

Some people see you as an unlikely champion of open source today you're laughing.

Well, I don't know why.

Well, I don't know why.

I mean, I actually think, well, I.

I mean, I actually think, well, I.

Get it, but yeah, you understand the word unlikely.

Get it, but yeah, you understand the word unlikely.

Yeah, we've actually Meta have been pretty big proponents of open source for a while and it's been a really good formula for us. So dating back to how we design servers, how we design our data centers, we have this whole open compute project that kind of standardized a lot of the infrastructure for the industry that's going to happen with AI too.

Yeah, we've actually Meta have been pretty big proponents of open source for a while and it's been a really good formula for us. So dating back to how we design servers, how we design our data centers, we have this whole open compute project that kind of standardized a lot of the infrastructure for the industry that's going to happen with AI too.

You're really putting a stake in the ground by open sourcing your AI in this attempt to build the AI rails for the future. How much of this is a strategic way to control or own the next technology wave.

You're really putting a stake in the ground by open sourcing your AI in this attempt to build the AI rails for the future. How much of this is a strategic way to control or own the next technology wave.

A lot of how we've grown up over the last ten or fifteen years was building our apps through phone platforms that our competitors controlled. So it's somewhat soul crushing to like go build something that you think is going to be good and then just get told by Apple that you can't ship it because they want to put us in a box because they view.

A lot of how we've grown up over the last ten or fifteen years was building our apps through phone platforms that our competitors controlled. So it's somewhat soul crushing to like go build something that you think is going to be good and then just get told by Apple that you can't ship it because they want to put us in a box because they view.

Us as competitive.

Us as competitive.

You know, we're a big enough company now that one of the things that I've resolved is that for the next generation of technology, I want us to build and have more control over the next set of platforms that we're going to build. So I think AI is a critical one, and I think augmented and virtual reality is another critical one. It's kind of the way that we can control our own destiny on this and make sure that we have access to leading AI is by building it and having it become an industry standard, but it actually gets stronger by being able to share it and have the ecosystem around it.

You know, we're a big enough company now that one of the things that I've resolved is that for the next generation of technology, I want us to build and have more control over the next set of platforms that we're going to build. So I think AI is a critical one, and I think augmented and virtual reality is another critical one. It's kind of the way that we can control our own destiny on this and make sure that we have access to leading AI is by building it and having it become an industry standard, but it actually gets stronger by being able to share it and have the ecosystem around it.

You're continuing to improve meta AI across all of your products, but also as a standalone chatbot. Why should we use meta over chat GPT?

You're continuing to improve meta AI across all of your products, but also as a standalone chatbot. Why should we use meta over chat GPT?

Well, there's a bunch of things where it's better, you know. One of the things that we're rolling out soon is the ability to just like imagine stuff. You're typing something in real time. I do this with my daughters all the time, and as you're kind of typing and entering the query, it's just generating the images as you enter.

Well, there's a bunch of things where it's better, you know. One of the things that we're rolling out soon is the ability to just like imagine stuff. You're typing something in real time. I do this with my daughters all the time, and as you're kind of typing and entering the query, it's just generating the images as you enter.

The key strokes.

The key strokes.

It's just really cool. My goal for the medai launch, which I mean it's only really a few months old at this point, was to by the end of the year have met aai'd be the most used AI assistant in the world. And I think we're basically on track for that. I mean, there's hundreds of millions of people who are at the end of this year, yeah, and I think we're going to be there before the end of the year.

It's just really cool. My goal for the medai launch, which I mean it's only really a few months old at this point, was to by the end of the year have met aai'd be the most used AI assistant in the world. And I think we're basically on track for that. I mean, there's hundreds of millions of people who are at the end of this year, yeah, and I think we're going to be there before the end of the year.

That's Mark Zuckerberg with Emily Chang on the Circuit Bloomberg original series that goes behind the scenes with founders, executives, and innovators. Emily, I have to tell you the Mark Zuckerberg that we just heard in that clip, he sounds different than the Mark Zuckerberg we've heard on stage at the Developers conference that we've heard in other interviews. He sounded so much more relaxed.

That's Mark Zuckerberg with Emily Chang on the Circuit Bloomberg original series that goes behind the scenes with founders, executives, and innovators. Emily, I have to tell you the Mark Zuckerberg that we just heard in that clip, he sounds different than the Mark Zuckerberg we've heard on stage at the Developers conference that we've heard in other interviews. He sounded so much more relaxed.

I completely agree.

I completely agree.

I mean, that question that you saw me ask about being the unlikely Champion was basically the first or maybe the second question in the interview.

I mean, that question that you saw me ask about being the unlikely Champion was basically the first or maybe the second question in the interview.

And just the fact that he kind of laughed.

And just the fact that he kind of laughed.

And pushed back a little but then acknowledged that he understood. I just thought it was such a great moment. You know, he was a lot more direct in this interview than I've seen him before. I mean, and look, this is still his strategy is highly scrutinized. He's still one of the most scrutinized people, and Meta is one of the most scrutiny scrutinized companies in the world, and they deserve that scrutiny because they are hugely, hugely influential. It just seems like he's really grown into this role. And uh, you know, I'm glad that he is. He's now showing a bit of that side of himself to us so that we can better understand how he thinks and how he leads, and then we can judge for ourselves well.

And pushed back a little but then acknowledged that he understood. I just thought it was such a great moment. You know, he was a lot more direct in this interview than I've seen him before. I mean, and look, this is still his strategy is highly scrutinized. He's still one of the most scrutinized people, and Meta is one of the most scrutiny scrutinized companies in the world, and they deserve that scrutiny because they are hugely, hugely influential. It just seems like he's really grown into this role. And uh, you know, I'm glad that he is. He's now showing a bit of that side of himself to us so that we can better understand how he thinks and how he leads, and then we can judge for ourselves well.

Speaking of influence and showing himself on a day where we've been focused on Kamala Harris her first campaign rally, we were just covering it moments ago.

Speaking of influence and showing himself on a day where we've been focused on Kamala Harris her first campaign rally, we were just covering it moments ago.

You did talk politics with Mark Zuckerberg.

You did talk politics with Mark Zuckerberg.

We did, and.

We did, and.

He said more than I expected that he would say. He you know, you know, first obviously talked about Facebook's role in elections and and one of the things that they're doing at Facebook is trying to recommend less political content in feeds. He said, the number one thing I hear from people is that they don't want to see political content, and we're gonna we're listening to that. So I think Facebook will be playing less of a role in the election going forward. But of course he went on to talk about Donald Trump and the appeal that Trump has, and he did not endorse either candidate, by the way, but he did say that he found former President Trump's response to the assassination, that that famous picture of him pumping his.

He said more than I expected that he would say. He you know, you know, first obviously talked about Facebook's role in elections and and one of the things that they're doing at Facebook is trying to recommend less political content in feeds. He said, the number one thing I hear from people is that they don't want to see political content, and we're gonna we're listening to that. So I think Facebook will be playing less of a role in the election going forward. But of course he went on to talk about Donald Trump and the appeal that Trump has, and he did not endorse either candidate, by the way, but he did say that he found former President Trump's response to the assassination, that that famous picture of him pumping his.

Fist that we all now know so well. He thought that was pretty inspiring.

Fist that we all now know so well. He thought that was pretty inspiring.

In fact, he used the word badass to describe Trump's reaction to the assassination attempt, and he was like, I can see why people like the guy. It's a crazy time in America. And the role that I want to play is help letting people express themselves but in a safe and healthy way, and we're going to try to evolve the platform to make that happen.

In fact, he used the word badass to describe Trump's reaction to the assassination attempt, and he was like, I can see why people like the guy. It's a crazy time in America. And the role that I want to play is help letting people express themselves but in a safe and healthy way, and we're going to try to evolve the platform to make that happen.

Well, incredible stuff. Another incredible episode and interview, Emily, Thanks so much, so glad we could catch up with you. You can watch The Circuit with Emily Chang tonight at six thirty pm Wall Street Time on Bloomberg Television. Also streaming at eight thirty pm Wall Street Time Bloomberg Originals. Emily, of course, is the host and executive producer of the Circuit from Bloomberg Originals.

Well, incredible stuff. Another incredible episode and interview, Emily, Thanks so much, so glad we could catch up with you. You can watch The Circuit with Emily Chang tonight at six thirty pm Wall Street Time on Bloomberg Television. Also streaming at eight thirty pm Wall Street Time Bloomberg Originals. Emily, of course, is the host and executive producer of the Circuit from Bloomberg Originals.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us Live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern Listen on Apple car Play and and Broud Auto with a Bloomberg Business act or want us Live on YouTube.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us Live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern Listen on Apple car Play and and Broud Auto with a Bloomberg Business act or want us Live on YouTube.

Cheryl, how many times do you keep heard that AI is going to make.

Cheryl, how many times do you keep heard that AI is going to make.

Their lives easier?

Their lives easier?

What in the last sixty seconds.

What in the last sixty seconds.

Yeah, right, it's going to do the busy work for us so we can get to the stuff that really matters. Even though I was actually typing this in Google Docs and like the automation was trying to fill it in, that's kind of what I'm actually trying to say. So it's a little impressive.

Yeah, right, it's going to do the busy work for us so we can get to the stuff that really matters. Even though I was actually typing this in Google Docs and like the automation was trying to fill it in, that's kind of what I'm actually trying to say. So it's a little impressive.

I like it when it finishes your sentences or my sentences.

I like it when it finishes your sentences or my sentences.

Okay, So there's this new study out from the freelancing platform upwork that actually found that full time employees say that AI has added to their workload and then it's even contributing to burnout.

Okay, So there's this new study out from the freelancing platform upwork that actually found that full time employees say that AI has added to their workload and then it's even contributing to burnout.

Wait, added to your work?

Wait, added to your work?

Yeah, it's not making things easier, all right.

Yeah, it's not making things easier, all right.

So what's going on?

So what's going on?

Kelly Monahan is managing director at the Epwork Research Institute. They focus on the future of work, which includes a lot of conversations I'm assuming about AI, She joins us from Chicago.

Kelly Monahan is managing director at the Epwork Research Institute. They focus on the future of work, which includes a lot of conversations I'm assuming about AI, She joins us from Chicago.

Kelly, what the heck is going on?

Kelly, what the heck is going on?

I thought this is supposed to make our life easier for us up to do the things that really matter.

I thought this is supposed to make our life easier for us up to do the things that really matter.

Absolutely. I think what we're seeing right now is the classic productivity paradox where we've seen many times before with other technologies. You saw on our study ninety six percent of global leaders are saying generative AI should be making the workforce more productive, but the reality is seventy seven percent said is actually adding to their workload. And then I think, maybe even more alarming, forty four percent said they don't even know how to get these productivity gains, and that's resulting in one in three employees looking to exit the organization because they're feeling so overwhelmed by their job today.

Absolutely. I think what we're seeing right now is the classic productivity paradox where we've seen many times before with other technologies. You saw on our study ninety six percent of global leaders are saying generative AI should be making the workforce more productive, but the reality is seventy seven percent said is actually adding to their workload. And then I think, maybe even more alarming, forty four percent said they don't even know how to get these productivity gains, and that's resulting in one in three employees looking to exit the organization because they're feeling so overwhelmed by their job today.

Wow, so what's going on here?

Wow, so what's going on here?

Like?

Like?

Why where is the failure happening?

Why where is the failure happening?

Yeah? Great question. So a couple of things going on. One, this is still a very new technology and we are still in net learning phase. I think the mindset shift that needs to take place is leaders are looking for this to drive efficiency and that's how they're measuring it, and that's where they're putting the pressure in their workforce, when in reality is there's so much unknowns and this is a frontier and so what really needs to be taking place is employees thinking of this through an R and D lens. What do I need to be learning? How do I drive innovation? How do I rethink what I'm doing? But instead, what they're feeling is that leaders are asking them to do more of the same but faster and cheaper, and that right now is just a big disconnect because that's not where we are from a technology perspective.

Yeah? Great question. So a couple of things going on. One, this is still a very new technology and we are still in net learning phase. I think the mindset shift that needs to take place is leaders are looking for this to drive efficiency and that's how they're measuring it, and that's where they're putting the pressure in their workforce, when in reality is there's so much unknowns and this is a frontier and so what really needs to be taking place is employees thinking of this through an R and D lens. What do I need to be learning? How do I drive innovation? How do I rethink what I'm doing? But instead, what they're feeling is that leaders are asking them to do more of the same but faster and cheaper, and that right now is just a big disconnect because that's not where we are from a technology perspective.

I want to understand, though, exactly what you guys looked into in terms of and how what were employees doing with AI as they try to figure out how it can either help or is just adding to their workload? Like what did you exactly look into the research study or was it just a case of questioning, you know, employees, because I'm curious about who these workers are and what they how they were using AI.

I want to understand, though, exactly what you guys looked into in terms of and how what were employees doing with AI as they try to figure out how it can either help or is just adding to their workload? Like what did you exactly look into the research study or was it just a case of questioning, you know, employees, because I'm curious about who these workers are and what they how they were using AI.

Yeah, so our study is based on knowledge workers and this was a global study, so we have representation in the US, Australia, Canada, in Europe. And so what we really focused on were those workers who are already using computer technologies to do their job and so they had to have some level of exposure to even understanding AI. And what we found was, but they're actually spending a lot of their time on right now is auditing the AI content that's coming out. They're then having to train the AI content because a lot of these are large language models that need to be fine tuned and trained. And the real disconnect that we're seeing is the majority of these individuals are self teaching themselves. There is no formal structure with an organization that's helping them upskill and actually learn how to do these things, which is why I think there's so much friction today.

Yeah, so our study is based on knowledge workers and this was a global study, so we have representation in the US, Australia, Canada, in Europe. And so what we really focused on were those workers who are already using computer technologies to do their job and so they had to have some level of exposure to even understanding AI. And what we found was, but they're actually spending a lot of their time on right now is auditing the AI content that's coming out. They're then having to train the AI content because a lot of these are large language models that need to be fine tuned and trained. And the real disconnect that we're seeing is the majority of these individuals are self teaching themselves. There is no formal structure with an organization that's helping them upskill and actually learn how to do these things, which is why I think there's so much friction today.

Is there any sort of parallel that we can draw in recent history where we've seen a technology that in your view, actually will be this just has been this disruptive and companies have had to upscale their workforce.

Is there any sort of parallel that we can draw in recent history where we've seen a technology that in your view, actually will be this just has been this disruptive and companies have had to upscale their workforce.

Yeah, so we've seen this, I think in a few different times. And now AI has been around since the nineteen fifties and I know it's gone through periods of winters where it's been overhyped. And now we're in a period summer period where there's a lot of investment and there's a lot of hype and what this can cause. And I think this is a good thing, but the reality is all technologies before it have gone through this. A lot of people compared this to internet computing, so when businesses were mostly done on site and then everyone had to quickly become a digital some version of e commerce business in order to reach customers. I think over time we're going to see that being a pretty good comparison and fundamental shift. We're pretty soon you're going to hear the conversation around all businesses have to be AI powered to some degree. We've seen that with cloud computing. I think the problem is right now, this is just happening so fast, and we're not giving people enough time and enough runway to really make this pivot and change, and we're expecting too much too soon.

Yeah, so we've seen this, I think in a few different times. And now AI has been around since the nineteen fifties and I know it's gone through periods of winters where it's been overhyped. And now we're in a period summer period where there's a lot of investment and there's a lot of hype and what this can cause. And I think this is a good thing, but the reality is all technologies before it have gone through this. A lot of people compared this to internet computing, so when businesses were mostly done on site and then everyone had to quickly become a digital some version of e commerce business in order to reach customers. I think over time we're going to see that being a pretty good comparison and fundamental shift. We're pretty soon you're going to hear the conversation around all businesses have to be AI powered to some degree. We've seen that with cloud computing. I think the problem is right now, this is just happening so fast, and we're not giving people enough time and enough runway to really make this pivot and change, and we're expecting too much too soon.

Why do you think it's important that we have this conversation right now?

Why do you think it's important that we have this conversation right now?

I think right now there's so much pressure of business leaders. I mean, they're managing such great macrock. I'm a concerns whether it's rising inflation, whether it's global turbulence, and I think right now the workforce is looking for something to grasp onto to help make their work lives easier. They've been through a lot as we think about coming out of the pandemic. And what my concern is and why I think this conversation is so important is this is a human plus machine conversation. There's so much headlines about dis generative AI and how it's going to save the day, but in reality, humans are going to help save the day, and we really need a new model of leadership and talent and work mix in order to get this right. And I think we're at a critical cross point that if we have too much technology investment without enough human development investment, we may be leaving people behind.

I think right now there's so much pressure of business leaders. I mean, they're managing such great macrock. I'm a concerns whether it's rising inflation, whether it's global turbulence, and I think right now the workforce is looking for something to grasp onto to help make their work lives easier. They've been through a lot as we think about coming out of the pandemic. And what my concern is and why I think this conversation is so important is this is a human plus machine conversation. There's so much headlines about dis generative AI and how it's going to save the day, but in reality, humans are going to help save the day, and we really need a new model of leadership and talent and work mix in order to get this right. And I think we're at a critical cross point that if we have too much technology investment without enough human development investment, we may be leaving people behind.

So I want to get to some takeaways here before we let you go. Takeaways for knowledge workers who are out there dealing with this brave new world, people like us who are trying to understand and incorporate AI into our lives. What should we be doing.

So I want to get to some takeaways here before we let you go. Takeaways for knowledge workers who are out there dealing with this brave new world, people like us who are trying to understand and incorporate AI into our lives. What should we be doing.

Yeah, there's two things that I think are critical that our research found that where people were using AI and it wasn't burning them out and they felt more productive. The very first thing is seeking outside help. I mean, this is, to your point, a brave new world. And there's other people who are much further ahead of this. We've seen this in the answer community. They are much more likely to be adopting AI incorporate it into their workflows. I mean, their livelihood depends on staying on top of the skills, and so this is a great community to go after to really seek the outside help to both educate and understand how you can be incorporating AI. And then the second thing, and this is a little bit more called to like a business leader perspective, is how we actually begin to measure productivity. I worry if we're purely looking at efficiency, hours worked, output, we're missing the big conversation that we should be having instead. When we saw on our research people want to be measured against creativity, innovation, how they're adapting to change their contributions to the company strategy. And that's the conversation I want to see Jenai play in.

Yeah, there's two things that I think are critical that our research found that where people were using AI and it wasn't burning them out and they felt more productive. The very first thing is seeking outside help. I mean, this is, to your point, a brave new world. And there's other people who are much further ahead of this. We've seen this in the answer community. They are much more likely to be adopting AI incorporate it into their workflows. I mean, their livelihood depends on staying on top of the skills, and so this is a great community to go after to really seek the outside help to both educate and understand how you can be incorporating AI. And then the second thing, and this is a little bit more called to like a business leader perspective, is how we actually begin to measure productivity. I worry if we're purely looking at efficiency, hours worked, output, we're missing the big conversation that we should be having instead. When we saw on our research people want to be measured against creativity, innovation, how they're adapting to change their contributions to the company strategy. And that's the conversation I want to see Jenai play in.

Yeah, it's interesting, you know, and I do wonder.

Yeah, it's interesting, you know, and I do wonder.

I thought what was interesting also that one in three full time employees saying they will likely quit their job in the next six months because of the strain that they are feeling from rising productivity demand. And I don't know what that says maybe more strongly, more significantly about kind of the job market, the economic outlook right now. If we don't get this right, then what Because I just do wonder if it's just I mean, this is the you know, typical strain. I feel like when we all were starting to embrace the internet, right and figure that out, that there's always this disconnect as we find our way through some you know, advancements in technology. As you say, AI is not a new thing. But this is certainly a different level.

I thought what was interesting also that one in three full time employees saying they will likely quit their job in the next six months because of the strain that they are feeling from rising productivity demand. And I don't know what that says maybe more strongly, more significantly about kind of the job market, the economic outlook right now. If we don't get this right, then what Because I just do wonder if it's just I mean, this is the you know, typical strain. I feel like when we all were starting to embrace the internet, right and figure that out, that there's always this disconnect as we find our way through some you know, advancements in technology. As you say, AI is not a new thing. But this is certainly a different level.

Is this just kind of a normal transition period.

Is this just kind of a normal transition period.

Yeah, I think, you know, history tends to repeat itself, and we've seen this before. I think what's probably unprecedented is just the speed and pace of change, and I think leaders don't want to be left behind. If we go back to cloud computing, there were early adopters, and I think people who are able to get ahead and find efficiencies and win in their industry. And I think there's that sense of urgency today because this is such a fast moving technology, and again it is still a fairly strong labor market. People want to work for some of the best companies who are leading edge, and so I do think there's this urgency to win this game and win this AI race. But I do think we have to have patients, and I think people are feeling it. And that's why the call here is slow down, bringing outside help and really think about what's the business problem and how are you driving creativity and innovation and not just efficiency.

Yeah, I think, you know, history tends to repeat itself, and we've seen this before. I think what's probably unprecedented is just the speed and pace of change, and I think leaders don't want to be left behind. If we go back to cloud computing, there were early adopters, and I think people who are able to get ahead and find efficiencies and win in their industry. And I think there's that sense of urgency today because this is such a fast moving technology, and again it is still a fairly strong labor market. People want to work for some of the best companies who are leading edge, and so I do think there's this urgency to win this game and win this AI race. But I do think we have to have patients, and I think people are feeling it. And that's why the call here is slow down, bringing outside help and really think about what's the business problem and how are you driving creativity and innovation and not just efficiency.

Here, Hey, Kelly, upwork it's a publicly traded company. How does this change the way that you guys are doing business at upwork?

Here, Hey, Kelly, upwork it's a publicly traded company. How does this change the way that you guys are doing business at upwork?

Yeah?

Yeah?

So, I mean AI, you know, we are focused on AI making our platform and product experience even better for our freelancers and our clients who are coming into search really just having a much more intelligent experience from a freelancer perspective. We continue to see this being our fastest growing category on our platform. Freelancers who are using AI are getting higher value work, They're earning more than their peers, and so I think this has been a real game changer for the freelancer community.

So, I mean AI, you know, we are focused on AI making our platform and product experience even better for our freelancers and our clients who are coming into search really just having a much more intelligent experience from a freelancer perspective. We continue to see this being our fastest growing category on our platform. Freelancers who are using AI are getting higher value work, They're earning more than their peers, and so I think this has been a real game changer for the freelancer community.

All Right, we're going to leave it there.

All Right, we're going to leave it there.

Hey, listen, thank you so much. Certainly something to think about. And you know, we just heard from Emily Emily Chang talking with Mark Zuckerberg about what they are doing, certainly with AI.

Hey, listen, thank you so much. Certainly something to think about. And you know, we just heard from Emily Emily Chang talking with Mark Zuckerberg about what they are doing, certainly with AI.

So this is kind of our world that.

So this is kind of our world that.

Continues to be Kelly Monahan, she's managing to Rectord Atwork Research Institute, joining us from Chicago on this Tuesday.

Continues to be Kelly Monahan, she's managing to Rectord Atwork Research Institute, joining us from Chicago on this Tuesday.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty Immaco a journal.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty Immaco a journal.

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Well bunch old down on Bloomberg Radio.

Well bunch old down on Bloomberg Radio.

What do you say, Carol, TikTok.

What do you say, Carol, TikTok.

Ready, I'm just looking ahead.

Ready, I'm just looking ahead.

I'm thinking a lot about some of the earnings after the closing bell.

I'm thinking a lot about some of the earnings after the closing bell.

This is starting Tesla alphabet. What's the plan?

This is starting Tesla alphabet. What's the plan?

Yeah, I mean yes, yes, yes, and yes.

Yeah, I mean yes, yes, yes, and yes.

But it's just what we're talking about. A third of the S and P market cap this week expected to report. And I just think you know, Gina Martin Adamsho, we talked to you yesterday. I said, so far early in the game, the numbers have been coming in really strong.

But it's just what we're talking about. A third of the S and P market cap this week expected to report. And I just think you know, Gina Martin Adamsho, we talked to you yesterday. I said, so far early in the game, the numbers have been coming in really strong.

Don't forget about Texas instruments too.

Don't forget about Texas instruments too.

Texas Instruments, yep, going to be on it. The chip sector always so important, different aspects to it. But having said that, we're early in the game. So what these big megacap tech names have to say really really important.

Texas Instruments, yep, going to be on it. The chip sector always so important, different aspects to it. But having said that, we're early in the game. So what these big megacap tech names have to say really really important.

Let's see what Jimmy Lee has to say about that. He's founder and chief executive officer at the Wealth Consulting Group. They got more than five billion dollars in assets under management. Usually usually he's in Las Vegas, but he's here greasing us with his presence in New York City in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Sorry about the rain today, It's okay. Sometimes happens, Okay, sometimes that happens. I know it doesn't hapen Las Vegas, but sometimes it happens here in New York. Let's start with big tech. How are you watching what we hear from a third of the market cap of the S and P five hundred this week too? Sort of define this part of the summer.

Let's see what Jimmy Lee has to say about that. He's founder and chief executive officer at the Wealth Consulting Group. They got more than five billion dollars in assets under management. Usually usually he's in Las Vegas, but he's here greasing us with his presence in New York City in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Sorry about the rain today, It's okay. Sometimes happens, Okay, sometimes that happens. I know it doesn't hapen Las Vegas, but sometimes it happens here in New York. Let's start with big tech. How are you watching what we hear from a third of the market cap of the S and P five hundred this week too? Sort of define this part of the summer.

Well, you know, as we've talked about before this year, we've been bullish on tech going into rate cuts, and I could not have predicted that we're going to have the run in the Max seven and some of the big tech stocks that we've seen, you know, so far this year. So it's been a huge run. But we've started to see now, as in the last ten days, a little bit of a rotation right out of the big tech trade and into other areas of the market that really haven't participated as much, such as small cap stocks, even oversea stocks, some of the more cyclical sectors that are going to benefit maybe from a lower interest rate environment, which is how we're positioned.

Well, you know, as we've talked about before this year, we've been bullish on tech going into rate cuts, and I could not have predicted that we're going to have the run in the Max seven and some of the big tech stocks that we've seen, you know, so far this year. So it's been a huge run. But we've started to see now, as in the last ten days, a little bit of a rotation right out of the big tech trade and into other areas of the market that really haven't participated as much, such as small cap stocks, even oversea stocks, some of the more cyclical sectors that are going to benefit maybe from a lower interest rate environment, which is how we're positioned.

And so you've been moving into these other areas.

And so you've been moving into these other areas.

Yes, in April when we did our rebounds, we added duration to our fixed income portfolios, Carol, so that we can benefit from a lowering ten year yield. We think that investors would be positioned for more of a three and a half percent type treasury at some point, not five and a half as people were fearing back then, and cyclical sector. So we're long on financials industrials still like tech, but I think that investors are going to feel as with fresh cash that's a little expensive to go into some of these names now.

Yes, in April when we did our rebounds, we added duration to our fixed income portfolios, Carol, so that we can benefit from a lowering ten year yield. We think that investors would be positioned for more of a three and a half percent type treasury at some point, not five and a half as people were fearing back then, and cyclical sector. So we're long on financials industrials still like tech, but I think that investors are going to feel as with fresh cash that's a little expensive to go into some of these names now.

So okay, so what if like Alphabet comes out and they blow away the numbers?

So okay, so what if like Alphabet comes out and they blow away the numbers?

Do you rethink it again?

Do you rethink it again?

Which I feel like we've had this scenario over and over again where everybody says enough with kind of the big tech names, look elsewhere, only for them to kind of outperform.

Which I feel like we've had this scenario over and over again where everybody says enough with kind of the big tech names, look elsewhere, only for them to kind of outperform.

Well, I would say that big tech is actually backed it up with big earnings, right, So most of the earnings came in the first quarter from those big companies, but that's supposed to be different in the second half of this year. So it's supposed to broaden out the earnings expectations of the marketplace, and I think that's what's going to happen. So do you go back into tech on the dips maybe on some of these cellos and.

Well, I would say that big tech is actually backed it up with big earnings, right, So most of the earnings came in the first quarter from those big companies, but that's supposed to be different in the second half of this year. So it's supposed to broaden out the earnings expectations of the marketplace, and I think that's what's going to happen. So do you go back into tech on the dips maybe on some of these cellos and.

The Nasdaq one hundred down four percent last week? Would you have been buying on that pullback?

The Nasdaq one hundred down four percent last week? Would you have been buying on that pullback?

Well, people were buying. I think naturally those companies get a bid just because of all the money going into systematic investment programs and all the index products. So they're going to get their fair share of buying regardless. But that being said, I think investors actually need to be cautious. I mean, think about twenty twenty two, those group of companies went down a lot as a percentage, and I think that's one of the reasons why they've come up so much since the loads of October twenty twenty two. But one of the statistics that we follow is how much money is going into the different acid classes, equities, fixed income, in cash, and since October of twenty two and the low more money has come out of stocks, out of equities, in mutual funds and ETFs than gone in, which is fascinating. Right, So all the statistics that we always talk about as advisors, the average investor always getting a small fraction of the return of the actual investments that they own. It's because of market timing or fear or panic, and this happened again so twenty twenty three and so far this year has been a huge bowl market that many investors have not participated in.

Well, people were buying. I think naturally those companies get a bid just because of all the money going into systematic investment programs and all the index products. So they're going to get their fair share of buying regardless. But that being said, I think investors actually need to be cautious. I mean, think about twenty twenty two, those group of companies went down a lot as a percentage, and I think that's one of the reasons why they've come up so much since the loads of October twenty twenty two. But one of the statistics that we follow is how much money is going into the different acid classes, equities, fixed income, in cash, and since October of twenty two and the low more money has come out of stocks, out of equities, in mutual funds and ETFs than gone in, which is fascinating. Right, So all the statistics that we always talk about as advisors, the average investor always getting a small fraction of the return of the actual investments that they own. It's because of market timing or fear or panic, and this happened again so twenty twenty three and so far this year has been a huge bowl market that many investors have not participated in.

What would you say to those investors haven't participated, time to get off the sidelines?

What would you say to those investors haven't participated, time to get off the sidelines?

Well, I mean again, I think they miss I think diversification is important, so I wouldn't say go chase right. So, I know a lot of a lot of us as advisors get a lot of phone calls about why don't we have more Navidio or certain companies are in the news.

Well, I mean again, I think they miss I think diversification is important, so I wouldn't say go chase right. So, I know a lot of a lot of us as advisors get a lot of phone calls about why don't we have more Navidio or certain companies are in the news.

I've gone up so much, But I.

I've gone up so much, But I.

Think investors really need to be cautious at this point. So if you've been invested, or even if you're out of the market and you're trying to get back in, I don't think it's a smart idea to try to chase these returns of the ones that have gone up the most, still being diversified and maybe a little bit more boring if you're going to participate in equities, is the way to go. I think an easier trade to actually is fixed income. So, as I said, with what we think is going to happen with interest rates, you can get a nice yield on a fixed income portfolio and maybe some of the money back that you've lost in the last several years on the nin acid values of the bonds.

Think investors really need to be cautious at this point. So if you've been invested, or even if you're out of the market and you're trying to get back in, I don't think it's a smart idea to try to chase these returns of the ones that have gone up the most, still being diversified and maybe a little bit more boring if you're going to participate in equities, is the way to go. I think an easier trade to actually is fixed income. So, as I said, with what we think is going to happen with interest rates, you can get a nice yield on a fixed income portfolio and maybe some of the money back that you've lost in the last several years on the nin acid values of the bonds.

Is that a smart play or a cautious play.

Is that a smart play or a cautious play.

I think it's actually a pretty smart play because of the way the market's rallied so much this year already that we could go a little sideways, could get volatility with the election and with geopolitics, and who knows what's going to happen, And so if I think that there's probably as much upside in fixed income probably as there might be inequities right now for the main of the year.

I think it's actually a pretty smart play because of the way the market's rallied so much this year already that we could go a little sideways, could get volatility with the election and with geopolitics, and who knows what's going to happen, And so if I think that there's probably as much upside in fixed income probably as there might be inequities right now for the main of the year.

Okay, before we let you go, we got to talk politics here, because there's been a huge shake up in the race for president in the last forty eight hours, with Kamala Harris now likely to be at the top of the ticket. Does that change your outlook at all when it comes to how you're deploying money or how you're invested.

Okay, before we let you go, we got to talk politics here, because there's been a huge shake up in the race for president in the last forty eight hours, with Kamala Harris now likely to be at the top of the ticket. Does that change your outlook at all when it comes to how you're deploying money or how you're invested.

You know, our view is to not try to make two big of bets on who you think is going to be in the White House next time, and so I think the investors should be cautious on that. It doesn't always play out anyways. And so of course, you know, with a Trump presidency, we know what he's been talking about. He's been there before, so I think, you know, less regulation, lower taxes, you can kind of count on that. I think one thing to taxes for some, Yeah, for some. I think one area to be cautious though for everybody is is both sides of the parties are against China, and so I think you have to be very careful about your overseas investments in China, especially with Trump as he talks about the you know, higher tariffs that he may want to try to employ, and we remember what that was like when those first happened. In hindsight, maybe it was a good thing as we sit here today, but I think that could cost some volatility too.

You know, our view is to not try to make two big of bets on who you think is going to be in the White House next time, and so I think the investors should be cautious on that. It doesn't always play out anyways. And so of course, you know, with a Trump presidency, we know what he's been talking about. He's been there before, so I think, you know, less regulation, lower taxes, you can kind of count on that. I think one thing to taxes for some, Yeah, for some. I think one area to be cautious though for everybody is is both sides of the parties are against China, and so I think you have to be very careful about your overseas investments in China, especially with Trump as he talks about the you know, higher tariffs that he may want to try to employ, and we remember what that was like when those first happened. In hindsight, maybe it was a good thing as we sit here today, but I think that could cost some volatility too.

So if someone's got new money, you're saying go fixed income.

So if someone's got new money, you're saying go fixed income.

Well, I think diversification, and I know, yeah, so at the top of the list, I just think it's maybe a probably less volatile trade. But you know, diversification I think is very important. Another one is just three months ago.

Well, I think diversification, and I know, yeah, so at the top of the list, I just think it's maybe a probably less volatile trade. But you know, diversification I think is very important. Another one is just three months ago.

But if diversification is there all the time, right all you guys, right, I get it. Are you saying though, if you're going to overweight somewhere, you would say overweight fixed income now.

But if diversification is there all the time, right all you guys, right, I get it. Are you saying though, if you're going to overweight somewhere, you would say overweight fixed income now.

A little bit?

A little bit?

And I think especially for the nervous nelly investors that maybe got out of their long term investments in twenty twenty two when the market was going down and moved into cash for the what I call the sucker bed of four or five percent, and missed out on the long term retterms of equities since the low you know, love twenty twenty two. I think if you're cautious to get back in, you don't want to get whip sealed again, fixed income might be a better way to play it. As you're trying to get back in the market.

And I think especially for the nervous nelly investors that maybe got out of their long term investments in twenty twenty two when the market was going down and moved into cash for the what I call the sucker bed of four or five percent, and missed out on the long term retterms of equities since the low you know, love twenty twenty two. I think if you're cautious to get back in, you don't want to get whip sealed again, fixed income might be a better way to play it. As you're trying to get back in the market.

We just got ten seconds left fixed income for how long?

We just got ten seconds left fixed income for how long?

You know?

You know?

I think at least in until we see the treasure tenure maybe closer to about ten to three and a half percent.

I think at least in until we see the treasure tenure maybe closer to about ten to three and a half percent.

Yeah, so a little bit of a ways to go, but a couple of rate cuts would certainly help us move. I'm just taking a look at the tenure right now, four twenty four, so a little bit of the ways.

Yeah, so a little bit of a ways to go, but a couple of rate cuts would certainly help us move. I'm just taking a look at the tenure right now, four twenty four, so a little bit of the ways.

One last dat if I can just give it a real quick Three months ago, Russell two thousand and forty percent of the Russell two thousand companies were above their two day moving average. Now it's over seventy percent.

One last dat if I can just give it a real quick Three months ago, Russell two thousand and forty percent of the Russell two thousand companies were above their two day moving average. Now it's over seventy percent.

So we're seeing quite a move up there. Great to have you here in studio.

So we're seeing quite a move up there. Great to have you here in studio.

You will Jimmy Lee, founder and chief executive officer at the Wealth Consulting Group, joining us here in our studio.

You will Jimmy Lee, founder and chief executive officer at the Wealth Consulting Group, joining us here in our studio.

This is the Bloomberg Business Week Podcast. I'll a a little on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcast. Listen live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and the Bloomberg Business App. You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg Jermalone

This is the Bloomberg Business Week Podcast. I'll a a little on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcast. Listen live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and the Bloomberg Business App. You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg Jermalone