You're listening to Bloomberg BusinessWeek with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio.

You're listening to Bloomberg BusinessWeek with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio.

Well, let's turn to a challenge that's facing every C suite executive, not to mention every policymaker, university, dean, teacher, you name it, who's trying to work at improving diversity and inclusion in their business school, etc. How do you try and bring people up who faced an equality and discrimination without simply focusing on the numbers, simply filling in the checkboxes. Michelle Lamont, a professor at sociology, a professor of sociology at Harvard, tried to answer this question, and she went out and interviewed over one hundred and eighty cultural leaders around the country. She wrote about her findings in the books Seeing Others, how recognition works and how it can heal a divided world. So, Michelle, you know, academic inequality.

Well, let's turn to a challenge that's facing every C suite executive, not to mention every policymaker, university, dean, teacher, you name it, who's trying to work at improving diversity and inclusion in their business school, etc. How do you try and bring people up who faced an equality and discrimination without simply focusing on the numbers, simply filling in the checkboxes. Michelle Lamont, a professor at sociology, a professor of sociology at Harvard, tried to answer this question, and she went out and interviewed over one hundred and eighty cultural leaders around the country. She wrote about her findings in the books Seeing Others, how recognition works and how it can heal a divided world. So, Michelle, you know, academic inequality.

Is a key piece of the polarization, the cultural polarization that you describe in your book, But you think it's a pretty limited way of understanding why some people succeed why other people lag explain.

Is a key piece of the polarization, the cultural polarization that you describe in your book, But you think it's a pretty limited way of understanding why some people succeed why other people lag explain.

Well, there's several aspects of this question. One of them is that when large organizations are putting in place a diversity program, they're not necessarily spending enough time thinking about the cultural change that are needed to make people feel that they belong and members of dominant groups white people meant tend to be very much at the center of the conversation and are often located more centrally in the space, for instance. So my book is very much about how to make more people feel worthy. And if we think of the role of organization well, for instance, putting together programs that reward people for being parents and make it possible for people to bring their older parents to the doctor. Giving some flexibility in work hours, for instance, are the kind of policies that can really make it.

Well, there's several aspects of this question. One of them is that when large organizations are putting in place a diversity program, they're not necessarily spending enough time thinking about the cultural change that are needed to make people feel that they belong and members of dominant groups white people meant tend to be very much at the center of the conversation and are often located more centrally in the space, for instance. So my book is very much about how to make more people feel worthy. And if we think of the role of organization well, for instance, putting together programs that reward people for being parents and make it possible for people to bring their older parents to the doctor. Giving some flexibility in work hours, for instance, are the kind of policies that can really make it.

I love more well. I just want to jump in, Michelle, because we only we only have a few minutes with you, and I want to make sure we get to everything on our long list of questions here. But you bring up something that's so interesting in the wake of the way that the workplace has changed post pandemic, if we can call this post pandemic, I certainly feel like we are in a different world when it comes to flexibility. I feel totally comfortable going to doctor's appointments, bringing my kid to doctor's appointments, Approaching my managers about these things in a way that I didn't before the pandemic, because you know, not everybody comes into work five days a week these days. I mean, how do you do this in a way that in a way where we have a distributed workforce?

I love more well. I just want to jump in, Michelle, because we only we only have a few minutes with you, and I want to make sure we get to everything on our long list of questions here. But you bring up something that's so interesting in the wake of the way that the workplace has changed post pandemic, if we can call this post pandemic, I certainly feel like we are in a different world when it comes to flexibility. I feel totally comfortable going to doctor's appointments, bringing my kid to doctor's appointments, Approaching my managers about these things in a way that I didn't before the pandemic, because you know, not everybody comes into work five days a week these days. I mean, how do you do this in a way that in a way where we have a distributed workforce?

Yeah, well, those are positive changes. But what has come also with the pandemic is that some of the aspects of life that are released sustained by regular work is that we build relationship with our coworkers. We feel seen by them. And as more of us are spending more time stated on our computers and being evaluated by algorithms, interacting with data more than we are people, the sense of how we gain recognition from the workplace is really diminishing. And that's a real problem for gen zs who have such a desire to feel more social inclusion and to really value quality of life, not only working to make money, but working to have rich relationships that allows them to really be all they want to be in life.

Yeah, well, those are positive changes. But what has come also with the pandemic is that some of the aspects of life that are released sustained by regular work is that we build relationship with our coworkers. We feel seen by them. And as more of us are spending more time stated on our computers and being evaluated by algorithms, interacting with data more than we are people, the sense of how we gain recognition from the workplace is really diminishing. And that's a real problem for gen zs who have such a desire to feel more social inclusion and to really value quality of life, not only working to make money, but working to have rich relationships that allows them to really be all they want to be in life.

So those is this the argument for a return to office from a diversity and inclusion perspective.

So those is this the argument for a return to office from a diversity and inclusion perspective.

Not really. I think my focus is not necessarily no, sorry, The argument is really about how sorry. The argument is really about how to create a workplace that is more fulfilling for people because they feel more worthy, they feel more valued in the eyes of their co workers. So how to create structures that allow them to develop relationships that are deeper.

Not really. I think my focus is not necessarily no, sorry, The argument is really about how sorry. The argument is really about how to create a workplace that is more fulfilling for people because they feel more worthy, they feel more valued in the eyes of their co workers. So how to create structures that allow them to develop relationships that are deeper.

So how do you do that in a world where remote workers are not the exception anymore?

So how do you do that in a world where remote workers are not the exception anymore?

Well by creating opportunities for people to really you know, if you create an environment where there's more emphasis on allowing people to live authentically and to bring their best self. I taught during the pandemic, and I remember my undergraduates saying, you really need to in the classroom create a culture that allows us to bring our best self. And I was very puzzled. I asked them, what do you mean? They say, I don't want to feel like I have to be in this environment where I'm supposed to present a picture of who I am that is untrue, or I have to be exposed to ideas that are really contrary to what I value. So of course that's part of the educational system to learn about ideas that are not familiar or agreeable to you. But there's a focus put on attentics by young people that future employers really need to think about if they want to retain them.

Well by creating opportunities for people to really you know, if you create an environment where there's more emphasis on allowing people to live authentically and to bring their best self. I taught during the pandemic, and I remember my undergraduates saying, you really need to in the classroom create a culture that allows us to bring our best self. And I was very puzzled. I asked them, what do you mean? They say, I don't want to feel like I have to be in this environment where I'm supposed to present a picture of who I am that is untrue, or I have to be exposed to ideas that are really contrary to what I value. So of course that's part of the educational system to learn about ideas that are not familiar or agreeable to you. But there's a focus put on attentics by young people that future employers really need to think about if they want to retain them.

But to some degree, everyone puts on some sort of persona when they go to the office, right, whether it's you know, doing your hair more nicely than you would on the weekend or putting on nicer clothes.

But to some degree, everyone puts on some sort of persona when they go to the office, right, whether it's you know, doing your hair more nicely than you would on the weekend or putting on nicer clothes.

I mean, yes, is it too much you variation in the extent to which this is people can disclose their real selves thing. For instance, of people who've had miscarriages at work, I mean, how much do they talk about this? How much? How free do they feel that they can reveal this drama to their supervisor. There's some environment in which we're all expected to present, you know, who we are in a very formal way, and there's others that are much more open to experiencing people, you know, through their authentic selfs. So these are some of the consideration that the book is talking about in terms of inclusion and also promoting diversity is not only about numbers. It's also, as you said earlier, it's very much about signaling that everyone belongs by for instance, the way that the offices are distributed. Who are going to be receiving the offices that are in the corner, far away from everyone, and who's going to be more at the center of the networks. Those are among the questions that employers may want to consider.

I mean, yes, is it too much you variation in the extent to which this is people can disclose their real selves thing. For instance, of people who've had miscarriages at work, I mean, how much do they talk about this? How much? How free do they feel that they can reveal this drama to their supervisor. There's some environment in which we're all expected to present, you know, who we are in a very formal way, and there's others that are much more open to experiencing people, you know, through their authentic selfs. So these are some of the consideration that the book is talking about in terms of inclusion and also promoting diversity is not only about numbers. It's also, as you said earlier, it's very much about signaling that everyone belongs by for instance, the way that the offices are distributed. Who are going to be receiving the offices that are in the corner, far away from everyone, and who's going to be more at the center of the networks. Those are among the questions that employers may want to consider.

Michelle, I think one challenge that I think about when you talk about authenticity is what we see in Washington today and what we see from our politicians here in the United States. Authenticity is not a word I would use to describe the interactions the relationships that take place there. And I'm wondering how we do this in a world where the behavior for you know, what's modeled for us is sort of the polar opposite.

Michelle, I think one challenge that I think about when you talk about authenticity is what we see in Washington today and what we see from our politicians here in the United States. Authenticity is not a word I would use to describe the interactions the relationships that take place there. And I'm wondering how we do this in a world where the behavior for you know, what's modeled for us is sort of the polar opposite.

No, absolutely, And when we think about the very large percentage of the American population that doesn't vote, it's in particular because they perceive people in d C as extremely fake. And I think as the working class is really being courted by the Democratic Party and the Republican Party as well, there's a real need to have discussion within each party about how are they able to better appeal to the working class, in part by signaling that the value authenticity and people being people and people being more real if you want so. There's such a class divide in the political culture and in between the elite, college educated professionals who dominate the workplace and who dominate d C that I think if we want more people to take democracy seriously and to be invested in our society, there's really a need to think and to discuss the place of sincerity and authenticity as we interact with each other at work and also in the political world.

No, absolutely, And when we think about the very large percentage of the American population that doesn't vote, it's in particular because they perceive people in d C as extremely fake. And I think as the working class is really being courted by the Democratic Party and the Republican Party as well, there's a real need to have discussion within each party about how are they able to better appeal to the working class, in part by signaling that the value authenticity and people being people and people being more real if you want so. There's such a class divide in the political culture and in between the elite, college educated professionals who dominate the workplace and who dominate d C that I think if we want more people to take democracy seriously and to be invested in our society, there's really a need to think and to discuss the place of sincerity and authenticity as we interact with each other at work and also in the political world.

Weigh in a little bit on the impact of the Supreme Court's decision to really narrow affirmative action, to essentially remove this from being a strong criteria that you know, universities can use. And there is some speculation that this or some form of this rule may get applied to the workplace as well. I mean, talk to me about how business leaders can get past us.

Weigh in a little bit on the impact of the Supreme Court's decision to really narrow affirmative action, to essentially remove this from being a strong criteria that you know, universities can use. And there is some speculation that this or some form of this rule may get applied to the workplace as well. I mean, talk to me about how business leaders can get past us.

I don't think it will be very easy. If you think of the rulings as it applies to higher education, there's this class that says students can write as says. So it's true that there's certainly a possibility for universities to slightly get around this, But in a Supreme Court that is dominated by six Supreme Court judges who are fundamentally conservative, it's absolutely predictable that they will go after affirmative action at many different level, and yet I think our workplaces are already extremely diverse. So we can think of many context in which those who do the evaluation will, you know, find ways create the kind of workplace that is reflexive of what the future of American society is in terms of diversity, but also in terms of the population that they are serving. As the number of non whites is increasing rapidly in the US, all organizations that provide services will want also to have a staff that with whom the clients can relate. So I think that bureaucratic processes are not functioning in isolation from real life. And at that level, I'm somewhat optimistic about the opportunity to go around the rules.

I don't think it will be very easy. If you think of the rulings as it applies to higher education, there's this class that says students can write as says. So it's true that there's certainly a possibility for universities to slightly get around this, But in a Supreme Court that is dominated by six Supreme Court judges who are fundamentally conservative, it's absolutely predictable that they will go after affirmative action at many different level, and yet I think our workplaces are already extremely diverse. So we can think of many context in which those who do the evaluation will, you know, find ways create the kind of workplace that is reflexive of what the future of American society is in terms of diversity, but also in terms of the population that they are serving. As the number of non whites is increasing rapidly in the US, all organizations that provide services will want also to have a staff that with whom the clients can relate. So I think that bureaucratic processes are not functioning in isolation from real life. And at that level, I'm somewhat optimistic about the opportunity to go around the rules.

If you will, Michelle, we really appreciate you joining us this afternoon on Bloomberg Business Week. Michell Laman as professor of sociology at Harvard her new book, Seeing Others, How Recognition Works and How it can heal a divided world. It's out now.

If you will, Michelle, we really appreciate you joining us this afternoon on Bloomberg Business Week. Michell Laman as professor of sociology at Harvard her new book, Seeing Others, How Recognition Works and How it can heal a divided world. It's out now.