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This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck on Bloomberg Radio. All right, well, we're joined now by Craig Mundy, president of Munday and Associates and also former Microsoft Chief Research and Strategy Officer, on location on Zoom in Washington, DC. He's here to discuss his new book Genesis, Artificial Intelligence, Hope and the Human Spirit. And this was co authored with former Google CEO Eric Schmidt and the late doctor Henry Kissinger. I want to get into the book and the future of AI and humanity, but I first want to ask Craig about just how this partnership of the three authors came together and the idea for writing this book.

This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck on Bloomberg Radio. All right, well, we're joined now by Craig Mundy, president of Munday and Associates and also former Microsoft Chief Research and Strategy Officer, on location on Zoom in Washington, DC. He's here to discuss his new book Genesis, Artificial Intelligence, Hope and the Human Spirit. And this was co authored with former Google CEO Eric Schmidt and the late doctor Henry Kissinger. I want to get into the book and the future of AI and humanity, but I first want to ask Craig about just how this partnership of the three authors came together and the idea for writing this book.

Begod. I've known Henry for about well in twenty seven years now. Back in the earlier days at Microsoft, we started to deal with a number of challenges on a global basis, and I was introduced to Henry and we became fast friends. That lasted another twenty five years, and so we talked very regularly, almost twice a month. We'd sit and talk for a while, and that evolved about five or six years ago to a discussion more and more around artificial intelligence. Eric Schmidt I've actually known since he was originally joined Sun Microsystems, probably pushing toward forty years now, and Eric and I encountered each other in a number of ways and places. You know, we both served President Obama as science advisors during.

Begod. I've known Henry for about well in twenty seven years now. Back in the earlier days at Microsoft, we started to deal with a number of challenges on a global basis, and I was introduced to Henry and we became fast friends. That lasted another twenty five years, and so we talked very regularly, almost twice a month. We'd sit and talk for a while, and that evolved about five or six years ago to a discussion more and more around artificial intelligence. Eric Schmidt I've actually known since he was originally joined Sun Microsystems, probably pushing toward forty years now, and Eric and I encountered each other in a number of ways and places. You know, we both served President Obama as science advisors during.

His terms, and.

His terms, and.

We got a chance be a meeting that we attended with Henry about six years ago to get Henry first exposed to what was happening in artificial intelligen and he was I guess ninety four at the time or something, but he was completely taken by the issues that he thought would be created by the emergence of a super intelligence. And because his background was in philosophy and history as well as diplomacy, you know, he got more and more interested and involved in that. That led to Eric and Henry and Dan Huttonlocker from MIT wrote a book a few years ago. We started to talk about the issues, but it didn't really talk so much about possible solutions, and the discussions I was having with Henry at the time were targeted a little more at this question of solutions than the very long term issues, and that led to the three of us coming together and designing to write a second book that would focus more on both the upsides and a strategy for how to manage the downside. And that's Genesis.

We got a chance be a meeting that we attended with Henry about six years ago to get Henry first exposed to what was happening in artificial intelligen and he was I guess ninety four at the time or something, but he was completely taken by the issues that he thought would be created by the emergence of a super intelligence. And because his background was in philosophy and history as well as diplomacy, you know, he got more and more interested and involved in that. That led to Eric and Henry and Dan Huttonlocker from MIT wrote a book a few years ago. We started to talk about the issues, but it didn't really talk so much about possible solutions, and the discussions I was having with Henry at the time were targeted a little more at this question of solutions than the very long term issues, and that led to the three of us coming together and designing to write a second book that would focus more on both the upsides and a strategy for how to manage the downside. And that's Genesis.

Genesis, I guess the beginning of this new era that that we face. What I find most interesting is the with the involvement of Henry Kissinger. Then to me, it means you can use artificial intelligence to do more things than like make Siri better, but maybe solve the Middle East conflict. And I wonder how AI would attempt to do something like achieve world peace. How would you use that tool to reach that goal?

Genesis, I guess the beginning of this new era that that we face. What I find most interesting is the with the involvement of Henry Kissinger. Then to me, it means you can use artificial intelligence to do more things than like make Siri better, but maybe solve the Middle East conflict. And I wonder how AI would attempt to do something like achieve world peace. How would you use that tool to reach that goal?

Well, you know, you chose an interesting word. Tool. In the book, we talk about our view that over the long term, our involvement with an ultimately relationship with these super intelligent machines goes through three phases. First phase, we're sort of in now is is where we use it as a tool, much like we have in all the other inventions you know mankind has made. But we think this is the first one where things have to move beyond thinking of it as a tool that just amplifies our own capabilities. We call the second stage coexistence, where humans come to the realization that in essence these machines are like a new intelligent species, and in fact, it is probably super intelligent relative to humans. And while it's not a biological species and the way we normally think about it, it has sort of all those other properties. So that puts us in a situation where we want to think about how does this other intelligent species help us? And that brings on many new issues philosophical, you know, societal and technological, and so you know, there's a lot of focus on that. Assuming we manage to get through that in a positive way and humans come out the other side, you know, in kind of a new environment, then we end up in a stage we call co evolution, where as has happened with biological species over the millennium on Earth. You know, each of these things begins to affect the other and you end up with some long term symbiotic relationship. And while we can't really define what that will be in advance, you know, we expect that that's where this ultimately ends up. And so in that regard, at each of these points in time, how AAI will affect everything, including diplomacy and international relations as well as science and discovery and politics. You know, we look at some of those issues specifically in the book, but I think in each of those three phases, the role that the AI plays in moving toward resolution, you know, could be quite different.

Well, you know, you chose an interesting word. Tool. In the book, we talk about our view that over the long term, our involvement with an ultimately relationship with these super intelligent machines goes through three phases. First phase, we're sort of in now is is where we use it as a tool, much like we have in all the other inventions you know mankind has made. But we think this is the first one where things have to move beyond thinking of it as a tool that just amplifies our own capabilities. We call the second stage coexistence, where humans come to the realization that in essence these machines are like a new intelligent species, and in fact, it is probably super intelligent relative to humans. And while it's not a biological species and the way we normally think about it, it has sort of all those other properties. So that puts us in a situation where we want to think about how does this other intelligent species help us? And that brings on many new issues philosophical, you know, societal and technological, and so you know, there's a lot of focus on that. Assuming we manage to get through that in a positive way and humans come out the other side, you know, in kind of a new environment, then we end up in a stage we call co evolution, where as has happened with biological species over the millennium on Earth. You know, each of these things begins to affect the other and you end up with some long term symbiotic relationship. And while we can't really define what that will be in advance, you know, we expect that that's where this ultimately ends up. And so in that regard, at each of these points in time, how AAI will affect everything, including diplomacy and international relations as well as science and discovery and politics. You know, we look at some of those issues specifically in the book, but I think in each of those three phases, the role that the AI plays in moving toward resolution, you know, could be quite different.

Description of the book said that AI might well solve some of the greatest mysteries of our universe and elevate the human spirit to unimaginable heights. I'm wondering what the book, in this exploration of AI actually teaches the reader about what it means to be human.

Description of the book said that AI might well solve some of the greatest mysteries of our universe and elevate the human spirit to unimaginable heights. I'm wondering what the book, in this exploration of AI actually teaches the reader about what it means to be human.

Well, one of the things that we point out in the book is that humanity is ultimately going to have to redefine the things that we think characterize humanity. We call in a book for the need to redefine dignity. Dignity as a base of giving people sort of purpose and self respect we think is going to have to be rethought once the AI begins to not only be smarter than we are in virtually every field, but where the emergence of it in conjunction with robotics and a redisc rebution of work. In many ways, humans have always had to work in order to be able to survive, and in that environment, work becomes a big component of how they view themselves and produce his dignity. And you know, as the as the AI and the and the evolving technical environment changes the relationship between work and humans, you know, we're going to have to rethink what these things are. And so, you know, the book tries to point to areas where we think the emergence of super intelligent machines will benefit humans in science and discovery and things like healthcare and education. But in the long run, it's really also a call for humans to come together with some urgency in order to be able to continue to redefine and utilize our own agency during this transitional period.

Well, one of the things that we point out in the book is that humanity is ultimately going to have to redefine the things that we think characterize humanity. We call in a book for the need to redefine dignity. Dignity as a base of giving people sort of purpose and self respect we think is going to have to be rethought once the AI begins to not only be smarter than we are in virtually every field, but where the emergence of it in conjunction with robotics and a redisc rebution of work. In many ways, humans have always had to work in order to be able to survive, and in that environment, work becomes a big component of how they view themselves and produce his dignity. And you know, as the as the AI and the and the evolving technical environment changes the relationship between work and humans, you know, we're going to have to rethink what these things are. And so, you know, the book tries to point to areas where we think the emergence of super intelligent machines will benefit humans in science and discovery and things like healthcare and education. But in the long run, it's really also a call for humans to come together with some urgency in order to be able to continue to redefine and utilize our own agency during this transitional period.

Craig, then, do we continue to control this technology or this super intelligence, because it sounds like in the final phase it becomes near to omniscient and omnipotent. But I'm not sure that there's any reason it would be omni benevolent. Like you know, I always think of the three properties of a Christian God, is it really going to want to do good?

Craig, then, do we continue to control this technology or this super intelligence, because it sounds like in the final phase it becomes near to omniscient and omnipotent. But I'm not sure that there's any reason it would be omni benevolent. Like you know, I always think of the three properties of a Christian God, is it really going to want to do good?

In the book, we talk about a new idea that's emerging in some quarters academically and a little bit it's been the focus of my own work in this area, which is to try to think about how do we engineer the AI in such a way that, in fact, it does have a fundamental grounding in the same value systems that are important to humanity. Without that, you know, you could say, and of course, many of the things that have been written in the last couple of years tend to be sensational. Sensationalized, you know, visit the risk of the of the machine and the humans. And you know, our own view is that if we want to contain those risks, there's ultimately no way to do that other than by building a trusted way in which the AI itself is involved in policing its own actions.

In the book, we talk about a new idea that's emerging in some quarters academically and a little bit it's been the focus of my own work in this area, which is to try to think about how do we engineer the AI in such a way that, in fact, it does have a fundamental grounding in the same value systems that are important to humanity. Without that, you know, you could say, and of course, many of the things that have been written in the last couple of years tend to be sensational. Sensationalized, you know, visit the risk of the of the machine and the humans. And you know, our own view is that if we want to contain those risks, there's ultimately no way to do that other than by building a trusted way in which the AI itself is involved in policing its own actions.

Uh.

Uh.

And you know, we've come to believe that that that's possible. And so if we can build this kind of trusted system that can monitor and and to some extent control the use of all the other AIS collectively, then we think that we can avoid many of the downsides and get the full benefit of AI without suffering a substantial risk that the AI becomes basically adversarial to humanity.

And you know, we've come to believe that that that's possible. And so if we can build this kind of trusted system that can monitor and and to some extent control the use of all the other AIS collectively, then we think that we can avoid many of the downsides and get the full benefit of AI without suffering a substantial risk that the AI becomes basically adversarial to humanity.

Fascinating, really fascinating stuff, Craig, and fantastic that you get a chance to write with doctor Kissinger his last piece of work, at least his last book. Craig Mundy there on his book Genesis, Artificial Intelligence, Hope and the Human Spirit, which he wrote with Henry Kissinger and Eric Schmidt. Thanks very much for joining us. Let's talk right now about the environment and waste Management or now it's known as w M. We have Tara Hemmer right now out of Houston, Texas joining us, senior vice president, chief Sustainability Officer at wn w M. And as we you know, look at the rising temperatures, the rising wind, the natural disasters. How can WM or waste management help in this crisis?

Fascinating, really fascinating stuff, Craig, and fantastic that you get a chance to write with doctor Kissinger his last piece of work, at least his last book. Craig Mundy there on his book Genesis, Artificial Intelligence, Hope and the Human Spirit, which he wrote with Henry Kissinger and Eric Schmidt. Thanks very much for joining us. Let's talk right now about the environment and waste Management or now it's known as w M. We have Tara Hemmer right now out of Houston, Texas joining us, senior vice president, chief Sustainability Officer at wn w M. And as we you know, look at the rising temperatures, the rising wind, the natural disasters. How can WM or waste management help in this crisis?

Well, thank you so much for having me. And it did take me a while to get used to the to the name change to WM. But it really is about the fact that WM. We handle so many different material types each and every day, and a lot of people don't know this about us. We are the largest recycler in North America and we made significant investments announce a one point four billion dollar investment in recycling infrastructure across North America from twenty twenty two to twenty twenty six. And this is about bringing access to communities. Recycling is something that's so tangible and people can get their brains around. But there are some myths around recycling that we really want to work towards, so to speak, mythbusting.

Well, thank you so much for having me. And it did take me a while to get used to the to the name change to WM. But it really is about the fact that WM. We handle so many different material types each and every day, and a lot of people don't know this about us. We are the largest recycler in North America and we made significant investments announce a one point four billion dollar investment in recycling infrastructure across North America from twenty twenty two to twenty twenty six. And this is about bringing access to communities. Recycling is something that's so tangible and people can get their brains around. But there are some myths around recycling that we really want to work towards, so to speak, mythbusting.

Yeah, I have to admit, you know, I do recycle. However, I also typically will like a meme that has to do with the fact that, like, why am I recycling my yogurt container when you know a CEO is taking a private jet thirty times a year. But I still recycle. But Tara, I'd love to hear kind of what your recent recycling port kind of showed about consumer perceptions of what recycle, what the impact of recycling actually is, because sometimes when you put your yogurt container in the recycling bin, it it really doesn't feel like you're doing much right.

Yeah, I have to admit, you know, I do recycle. However, I also typically will like a meme that has to do with the fact that, like, why am I recycling my yogurt container when you know a CEO is taking a private jet thirty times a year. But I still recycle. But Tara, I'd love to hear kind of what your recent recycling port kind of showed about consumer perceptions of what recycle, what the impact of recycling actually is, because sometimes when you put your yogurt container in the recycling bin, it it really doesn't feel like you're doing much right.

That's right, well, and the most important. We did this study because we wanted to understand what are consumers preferences and what are they what's their understanding around recycling, And what we found was really fascinating. We found that consumers really are interested and want to know more about four key areas. They're they're interested in learning more about recycling. They want to be edged about what happens to their materials. They need more access to recycle. Some communities don't even have recycling as a service. And that's something that's incredibly important. And then what we also found is that consumer brands, there's a lot of brand pull from millennials. And so I'm so glad you brought up the example of yogurt containers, because when I meet people in my community or my neighborhoods, a lot of people are really interested in can I recycle my yogurt container? And then what happens to it once it gets recycled. The thing is we need to bring to life what happens to the materials that you put in the bin a yogurt container. In our world, it gets turned into paint cans, as an example, or your water bottle that you might put in your recycling bin, it could get turned into another water bottle. It could get turned into a parel that you wear each and every day. In our case, it gets turned into our employees' uniforms. There's no greater circularity story than that. And in other instances, it gets turned into carpet that goes into homes. So it's important to know that if you are putting the right recycling types in your bin, it does get turned into other products, and the vast majority of it stays in the United States.

That's right, well, and the most important. We did this study because we wanted to understand what are consumers preferences and what are they what's their understanding around recycling, And what we found was really fascinating. We found that consumers really are interested and want to know more about four key areas. They're they're interested in learning more about recycling. They want to be edged about what happens to their materials. They need more access to recycle. Some communities don't even have recycling as a service. And that's something that's incredibly important. And then what we also found is that consumer brands, there's a lot of brand pull from millennials. And so I'm so glad you brought up the example of yogurt containers, because when I meet people in my community or my neighborhoods, a lot of people are really interested in can I recycle my yogurt container? And then what happens to it once it gets recycled. The thing is we need to bring to life what happens to the materials that you put in the bin a yogurt container. In our world, it gets turned into paint cans, as an example, or your water bottle that you might put in your recycling bin, it could get turned into another water bottle. It could get turned into a parel that you wear each and every day. In our case, it gets turned into our employees' uniforms. There's no greater circularity story than that. And in other instances, it gets turned into carpet that goes into homes. So it's important to know that if you are putting the right recycling types in your bin, it does get turned into other products, and the vast majority of it stays in the United States.

Right, although there are a lot of caveats there like so By the way, this is the second time we've talked about yogurt on today's show. I think it's funny because there's so many skews, right. If you go to a grocery store, there's nothing they have more different kinds of than yogurt. I typically eat Siggi's yogurt, and when I'm done with it, I'm always wondering, do I have to rinse the yogurt out of it before I put recycling? Do I need to rip off the paper label and put that in the paper recycling bin before I put my yogurt in the plastic recycling bin. And then when that all goes into the bins, what are the chances that the garbage men are actually going to take that stuff to recycling or are they all going to throw it, as I suspect, in the same giant bin that they throw all of the other garbage into, you know, or sell it to a company that just ships it off to Indonesia and floats it in the ocean outside of Jakarta rather than recycling it. I think the transparency problem is a really big one. Tara, how do you overcome that?

Right, although there are a lot of caveats there like so By the way, this is the second time we've talked about yogurt on today's show. I think it's funny because there's so many skews, right. If you go to a grocery store, there's nothing they have more different kinds of than yogurt. I typically eat Siggi's yogurt, and when I'm done with it, I'm always wondering, do I have to rinse the yogurt out of it before I put recycling? Do I need to rip off the paper label and put that in the paper recycling bin before I put my yogurt in the plastic recycling bin. And then when that all goes into the bins, what are the chances that the garbage men are actually going to take that stuff to recycling or are they all going to throw it, as I suspect, in the same giant bin that they throw all of the other garbage into, you know, or sell it to a company that just ships it off to Indonesia and floats it in the ocean outside of Jakarta rather than recycling it. I think the transparency problem is a really big one. Tara, how do you overcome that?

Well, First and foremost, I want to underscore at WM, we take recycling extremely seriously. It's one of our more significant business lines. And when we collect your materials at the curb, it goes to a WM recycling facility or a recycling facility that we're vetting, and we have very sophisticated technology. I think this is something that people don't really understand. When you throw your yogurt container, your water bottle, your hardboard boxes from all the e commerce shopping that we're doing, and you put it in one bin, single stream. We have advanced technology that sorts it out, so pulls out that cardbore container from all of the other things that it's commingled with, and we send it in a lot of instances to domestic markets and that cardboard box might get turned into a pizza box that shows up in your local neighborhood. And regarding plastics, you know, I've heard this from others too, like do I rinse my material I've heard of people putting their peanut butter jars through the dishwasher.

Well, First and foremost, I want to underscore at WM, we take recycling extremely seriously. It's one of our more significant business lines. And when we collect your materials at the curb, it goes to a WM recycling facility or a recycling facility that we're vetting, and we have very sophisticated technology. I think this is something that people don't really understand. When you throw your yogurt container, your water bottle, your hardboard boxes from all the e commerce shopping that we're doing, and you put it in one bin, single stream. We have advanced technology that sorts it out, so pulls out that cardbore container from all of the other things that it's commingled with, and we send it in a lot of instances to domestic markets and that cardboard box might get turned into a pizza box that shows up in your local neighborhood. And regarding plastics, you know, I've heard this from others too, like do I rinse my material I've heard of people putting their peanut butter jars through the dishwasher.

Don't do that.

Don't do that.

From an environmental perspective, But also we want to have these materials mostly clean, and so if you can just you know, give it a quick rinse, that's great. But when it ends up at our facilities, we're still able to pick it out, and we work really hard to build markets for these materials. That's a big part of what we do. And I think the other reason why we did the study is there is a recognition that people are confused and they want to better understand where if I'm doing all this work, where do my materials go.

From an environmental perspective, But also we want to have these materials mostly clean, and so if you can just you know, give it a quick rinse, that's great. But when it ends up at our facilities, we're still able to pick it out, and we work really hard to build markets for these materials. That's a big part of what we do. And I think the other reason why we did the study is there is a recognition that people are confused and they want to better understand where if I'm doing all this work, where do my materials go.

Tara, We're gonna have to Sorry, we're going to running upgainst the clock, but we're gonna have to have you come back because this really is fascinating stuff and interesting to hear what WM it does and how dedicated you are. Tarah Hammer there, senior vice president, chief sustainability Officer at WM. This is Bloomberg

Tara, We're gonna have to Sorry, we're going to running upgainst the clock, but we're gonna have to have you come back because this really is fascinating stuff and interesting to hear what WM it does and how dedicated you are. Tarah Hammer there, senior vice president, chief sustainability Officer at WM. This is Bloomberg