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This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek inside from the reporters and editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebek from Bloomberg Radio.

This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek inside from the reporters and editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebek from Bloomberg Radio.

Hi, everyone, welcome to the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week. Well this week, gail politics and US politics all front and center for US, and yes, Nvidia did report earnings. You can check out that huge market focus by heading to Bloomberg dot Com or the Bloomberg We did want to just highlight that for us, though, as we said, we were all in about the new political reality, facing serious issues globally and right here at home.

Hi, everyone, welcome to the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week. Well this week, gail politics and US politics all front and center for US, and yes, Nvidia did report earnings. You can check out that huge market focus by heading to Bloomberg dot Com or the Bloomberg We did want to just highlight that for us, though, as we said, we were all in about the new political reality, facing serious issues globally and right here at home.

On that, we ponder President elect Trump's impossible task. He's made promises of policy for both the working class and the rich. How does that actually work?

On that, we ponder President elect Trump's impossible task. He's made promises of policy for both the working class and the rich. How does that actually work?

It's a great question. Plus one of President Elect Donald Trump's more controversial nominees, RFK Junior as the nation's top health official. On what it may mean for healthcare in America and the next generation, and.

It's a great question. Plus one of President Elect Donald Trump's more controversial nominees, RFK Junior as the nation's top health official. On what it may mean for healthcare in America and the next generation, and.

Another win for Elon in the new administration, and venture capital and innovation in the Middle East. All that to come. We begin with Bloomberg BusinessWeek national correspondent Josh Green.

Another win for Elon in the new administration, and venture capital and innovation in the Middle East. All that to come. We begin with Bloomberg BusinessWeek national correspondent Josh Green.

Josh is the author of Devil's Bargain, Steve Bannon, Donald Trump in the Nationalist Uprising. He also wrote The Rebels Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio Cortes, and the Struggle for a New American Politics.

Josh is the author of Devil's Bargain, Steve Bannon, Donald Trump in the Nationalist Uprising. He also wrote The Rebels Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio Cortes, and the Struggle for a New American Politics.

Josh's BusinessWeek story. It tackles how Trump is attempting to pull off what Josh calls quote pollutocratic populism, but the math just doesn't square well.

Josh's BusinessWeek story. It tackles how Trump is attempting to pull off what Josh calls quote pollutocratic populism, but the math just doesn't square well.

Yeah, I think it was a surprise to a lot of people, but in a lot of ways, it's a much more impressive victory than his win in twenty sixteen, which took a lot of people by surprise. He did not win a majority of the popular vote that time. Looks almost certain that he will this time. And I think what's most important is that coalition that Trump put together in winning the twenty twenty four election. There were both the kind of high wattage billionaire supporters, people like Howard lutt Nick and Elon Musk, But on the other hand, Trump cobbled together a really racially diverse working class coalition that we hadn't seen the last time around. A lot of voters that traditionally vote Democrat were persuaded to come over and vote for Trump, and as a result, he has a really big coalition. As I write about in the new issue of BusinessWeek, Trump has pursued this kind of what I call plutocratic populism, and I think the main tension in his second presidency is going to be how to balance the interests of working class people with the interests of the billionaire and Wall Street crowd, who are another important coalition.

Yeah, I think it was a surprise to a lot of people, but in a lot of ways, it's a much more impressive victory than his win in twenty sixteen, which took a lot of people by surprise. He did not win a majority of the popular vote that time. Looks almost certain that he will this time. And I think what's most important is that coalition that Trump put together in winning the twenty twenty four election. There were both the kind of high wattage billionaire supporters, people like Howard lutt Nick and Elon Musk, But on the other hand, Trump cobbled together a really racially diverse working class coalition that we hadn't seen the last time around. A lot of voters that traditionally vote Democrat were persuaded to come over and vote for Trump, and as a result, he has a really big coalition. As I write about in the new issue of BusinessWeek, Trump has pursued this kind of what I call plutocratic populism, and I think the main tension in his second presidency is going to be how to balance the interests of working class people with the interests of the billionaire and Wall Street crowd, who are another important coalition.

For So let's talk a little bit about that, Josh. Because you came with receipts, you have the numbers here. Why is that an impossible task? Why is he unable to do that and make good on really every promise that he made on the campaign trail.

For So let's talk a little bit about that, Josh. Because you came with receipts, you have the numbers here. Why is that an impossible task? Why is he unable to do that and make good on really every promise that he made on the campaign trail.

Well, if you look at exit poll numbers and just in my own interviews with undecided voters and people were trying supporters, a lot of what drove Trump's support was voter anger, especially working class voter anger over inflation high prices, for which they blamed Kamala Harris personally. They didn't want her back in there. They remember the Trump era, rightly or wrongly, as a time of lower prices, lower inflation, strong paychecks for everybody, and so they voted for Trump in the hopes that.

Well, if you look at exit poll numbers and just in my own interviews with undecided voters and people were trying supporters, a lot of what drove Trump's support was voter anger, especially working class voter anger over inflation high prices, for which they blamed Kamala Harris personally. They didn't want her back in there. They remember the Trump era, rightly or wrongly, as a time of lower prices, lower inflation, strong paychecks for everybody, and so they voted for Trump in the hopes that.

He would bring that back.

He would bring that back.

But if you look at what some of Trump is planning to do, you know, the first item on his agenda looks to be extending his twenty seventeen tax cuts and maybe even cutting corporate taxes deeper than he did the first time around, which would be very exciting to his Wall Street contingent, to his billionaire contingent, But it could certainly help exacerbate inflation, as could.

But if you look at what some of Trump is planning to do, you know, the first item on his agenda looks to be extending his twenty seventeen tax cuts and maybe even cutting corporate taxes deeper than he did the first time around, which would be very exciting to his Wall Street contingent, to his billionaire contingent, But it could certainly help exacerbate inflation, as could.

A steep round of tariffs.

A steep round of tariffs.

So on the one hand, you know, you could satisfy one half of the coalition, But if the cost of that was for prices, inflation, and interest rates to rise again, then a lot of the same working class voters who supported him two weeks ago could potentially turn on him and Republicans in the midterm elections and handpower back to the Democrats.

So on the one hand, you know, you could satisfy one half of the coalition, But if the cost of that was for prices, inflation, and interest rates to rise again, then a lot of the same working class voters who supported him two weeks ago could potentially turn on him and Republicans in the midterm elections and handpower back to the Democrats.

Hey, how much do you think though Donald J. Trump thinks about the midterms at this point?

Hey, how much do you think though Donald J. Trump thinks about the midterms at this point?

All?

All?

Right?

Right?

I mean essentially, right, is this his second term.

I mean essentially, right, is this his second term.

He's a lame duck president.

He's a lame duck president.

He can do a lot of stuff, and he's got a congress, But how much do you think he thinks about what happens at midterms versus following through on his mandate.

He can do a lot of stuff, and he's got a congress, But how much do you think he thinks about what happens at midterms versus following through on his mandate.

It's a great question, Carrol.

It's a great question, Carrol.

It's one I've asked to some people around him, and the truthful answer I got is he doesn't really care at all. What he cares about is this approval rating. He'd like to have a booming stock market the way he did in his first term, and so part of the thinking in Trump world is that even if he did promote someone a Treasury secretary who got behind this tariff regime and things went badly in the economy, if the market were to fall, that might be a kind of disciplining mechanism for Trump to step back a little bit, because he really does view the stock mark at the S and P as a kind of verdict on the success or failure of his presidency. But certainly, thinking about the fortunes of congressional Republicans in twenty twenty six, it is probably not top of mind for Donald Trump right now.

It's one I've asked to some people around him, and the truthful answer I got is he doesn't really care at all. What he cares about is this approval rating. He'd like to have a booming stock market the way he did in his first term, and so part of the thinking in Trump world is that even if he did promote someone a Treasury secretary who got behind this tariff regime and things went badly in the economy, if the market were to fall, that might be a kind of disciplining mechanism for Trump to step back a little bit, because he really does view the stock mark at the S and P as a kind of verdict on the success or failure of his presidency. But certainly, thinking about the fortunes of congressional Republicans in twenty twenty six, it is probably not top of mind for Donald Trump right now.

That's interesting to hear.

That's interesting to hear.

Why do you think that is? Because it sort of does provide, to a certain extent a check on what he's able to do, because if he puts policies into place that are unpopular among his base, then he could really pay a price in the midterms.

Why do you think that is? Because it sort of does provide, to a certain extent a check on what he's able to do, because if he puts policies into place that are unpopular among his base, then he could really pay a price in the midterms.

Yeah, he could.

Yeah, he could.

I mean, I've gotten a couple answers from that in my reporting. One is that Trump simply does not believe what most mainstream economists believe, and that is that tariffs are inflationary and the cost will be passed along to consumers in the form of higher prices. I am my business We colleagues got to ask Trump about that for a Business We Cover story cover interview we did with Donald Trump back in July at Mara a Lago, and he simply disagrees. He said, well, if tariffs were inflationary, we would have had inflation during my first presidency. I imposed rounds of tariffs and we didn't, and therefore it's not going to be a problem. A lot of people around Trump publicly surrogates, have taken to echoing those points. So, as one of my sources pointed out to me in my current Business Week story, Trump doesn't believe that tariffs are inflationary. Therefore he's not going to believe it until they're implemented and until we see inflation. So to me, that suggests that we may be in for a rocky ride financially economically over the next four years if Trump is able to go ahead and do what he says he's going to do. And there are fewer guardrails and fewer breaks with Republicans controlling all three branches of Congress now than there were last time around. So I think I think his theories on tariffs and everything else make it a real test run.

I mean, I've gotten a couple answers from that in my reporting. One is that Trump simply does not believe what most mainstream economists believe, and that is that tariffs are inflationary and the cost will be passed along to consumers in the form of higher prices. I am my business We colleagues got to ask Trump about that for a Business We Cover story cover interview we did with Donald Trump back in July at Mara a Lago, and he simply disagrees. He said, well, if tariffs were inflationary, we would have had inflation during my first presidency. I imposed rounds of tariffs and we didn't, and therefore it's not going to be a problem. A lot of people around Trump publicly surrogates, have taken to echoing those points. So, as one of my sources pointed out to me in my current Business Week story, Trump doesn't believe that tariffs are inflationary. Therefore he's not going to believe it until they're implemented and until we see inflation. So to me, that suggests that we may be in for a rocky ride financially economically over the next four years if Trump is able to go ahead and do what he says he's going to do. And there are fewer guardrails and fewer breaks with Republicans controlling all three branches of Congress now than there were last time around. So I think I think his theories on tariffs and everything else make it a real test run.

I also do wonder, Josh, do you think Donald Trump thinks about his legacy? You know two assassination tempts, you know, one that we you know, obviously more serious it seems in certainly than the other one. But I do wonder if he's an older man, right, we all get older, we start to think about kind of our life's impact. Is this your understanding of him? You think he's thinking about that?

I also do wonder, Josh, do you think Donald Trump thinks about his legacy? You know two assassination tempts, you know, one that we you know, obviously more serious it seems in certainly than the other one. But I do wonder if he's an older man, right, we all get older, we start to think about kind of our life's impact. Is this your understanding of him? You think he's thinking about that?

In the second I'll say this, I'll say, you know, he and I have never had that discussion. But from everything I've seen from him, from everything I've heard from people around him, Trump tends to live in the here and now. I mean, he is responsive to the cable chirons that he sees on TV. He's responsive to the closing price in the stock market, not so much thinking about how his obituary will look in the New York Times. But that being said, look, all presidents like to succeed. I'm sure Trump would like high approval numbers and a lot of the signifiers that Trump looks to for validation, things like the level of the stock market, the wealth of the United States, the trade deficit. Those are all measuring sticks that I think Trump is going to use to measure his own performance. And we'll have to see if he can get those boosted along the lines that I know he wants to based on the policies that he said he's going to pursue, and if he can do it without breaking apart that broad coalition of both Wall Street folks and working class folks that got him elected on November.

In the second I'll say this, I'll say, you know, he and I have never had that discussion. But from everything I've seen from him, from everything I've heard from people around him, Trump tends to live in the here and now. I mean, he is responsive to the cable chirons that he sees on TV. He's responsive to the closing price in the stock market, not so much thinking about how his obituary will look in the New York Times. But that being said, look, all presidents like to succeed. I'm sure Trump would like high approval numbers and a lot of the signifiers that Trump looks to for validation, things like the level of the stock market, the wealth of the United States, the trade deficit. Those are all measuring sticks that I think Trump is going to use to measure his own performance. And we'll have to see if he can get those boosted along the lines that I know he wants to based on the policies that he said he's going to pursue, and if he can do it without breaking apart that broad coalition of both Wall Street folks and working class folks that got him elected on November.

Fifth, Josh, speaking of policies, do you believe that he will actually make good based on the folks you talk to of deporting millions of people who are here illegally on day one.

Fifth, Josh, speaking of policies, do you believe that he will actually make good based on the folks you talk to of deporting millions of people who are here illegally on day one.

He's certainly shown every sign that he intends to do that, both from the people he's put in top level positions, people like Stephen Miller, and Tom Holmans that would lead that effort to some of the comments he's made more recently about being willing to deputize US law enforcement to help carry out this deportation. So, everything we've seen so far suggests that yes, Trump is very serious about that and intends to pursue it as president.

He's certainly shown every sign that he intends to do that, both from the people he's put in top level positions, people like Stephen Miller, and Tom Holmans that would lead that effort to some of the comments he's made more recently about being willing to deputize US law enforcement to help carry out this deportation. So, everything we've seen so far suggests that yes, Trump is very serious about that and intends to pursue it as president.

Hey, just thirty seconds here to wrap up, and you've wrap up your piece. I mean, Donald Trump may also just be lucky in terms of timing right policies put in place by the Body administration. He may reap the benefits up just quickly.

Hey, just thirty seconds here to wrap up, and you've wrap up your piece. I mean, Donald Trump may also just be lucky in terms of timing right policies put in place by the Body administration. He may reap the benefits up just quickly.

Yeah. I mean.

Yeah. I mean.

The thing that galls so many bidens people in so many democratic sources is look at the economy Joe Biden has bequeathed Donald Trump. We have inflation coming down, the stock market is at record highs. We have all these new jobs in manufacturing factories being built all across the country with money that Biden really helped put in place. And now Donald Trump is about to take over as president and reap the political benefits and credit for all of those things. Great timing for Donald Trump, not so great timing for Joe Biden.

The thing that galls so many bidens people in so many democratic sources is look at the economy Joe Biden has bequeathed Donald Trump. We have inflation coming down, the stock market is at record highs. We have all these new jobs in manufacturing factories being built all across the country with money that Biden really helped put in place. And now Donald Trump is about to take over as president and reap the political benefits and credit for all of those things. Great timing for Donald Trump, not so great timing for Joe Biden.

That was Josh Green Bloomberg, BusinessWeek, National correspondent an author of the book Devil's Bargain, Steve Bannon, Donald Trump and the Nationalist Uprising, and more recently The Rebels Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, AOC and The Rise of the New Left.

That was Josh Green Bloomberg, BusinessWeek, National correspondent an author of the book Devil's Bargain, Steve Bannon, Donald Trump and the Nationalist Uprising, and more recently The Rebels Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, AOC and The Rise of the New Left.

Both great takes on politics in America. Well a lot this week regarding possible people and policies around the second Trump White House. On that, another story we've been looking at this week, Donald Trump's federal framework for self driving vehicles.

Both great takes on politics in America. Well a lot this week regarding possible people and policies around the second Trump White House. On that, another story we've been looking at this week, Donald Trump's federal framework for self driving vehicles.

If new rules enable wider deployment of cars without human controls think no pedals, no steering wheel, it will directly benefit Tesla's CEO and big donor buddy of the President elect. Yes, we are talking about Elon Musk. Elon has bet the future of the ev maker on self driving tech and AI. David Welsh is Bloomberg News Detroit Bureau chief. He breaks it all down.

If new rules enable wider deployment of cars without human controls think no pedals, no steering wheel, it will directly benefit Tesla's CEO and big donor buddy of the President elect. Yes, we are talking about Elon Musk. Elon has bet the future of the ev maker on self driving tech and AI. David Welsh is Bloomberg News Detroit Bureau chief. He breaks it all down.

What we're talking about is a federal framework governing av's in pretty much every way, but specifically looking at vehicles that don't have those human controls. That's a truly driverless vehicle. That's what Elon Musk wants to put on the road in a couple of years with Tesla and that's what has basically changed the valuation in the stock. Investors were worried that the eede business was kind of settling into a decently profitable, slow growth sort of thing, and he energized interest in the stock again with this robotaxi business. So, when you don't have a federal framework for that, you're relying on different states, this patchwork quild of regulations. It is actually very tough to run them. In California, they get monitored strictly, almost impossible in New York, but states like Arizona and Texas are pretty permissive.

What we're talking about is a federal framework governing av's in pretty much every way, but specifically looking at vehicles that don't have those human controls. That's a truly driverless vehicle. That's what Elon Musk wants to put on the road in a couple of years with Tesla and that's what has basically changed the valuation in the stock. Investors were worried that the eede business was kind of settling into a decently profitable, slow growth sort of thing, and he energized interest in the stock again with this robotaxi business. So, when you don't have a federal framework for that, you're relying on different states, this patchwork quild of regulations. It is actually very tough to run them. In California, they get monitored strictly, almost impossible in New York, but states like Arizona and Texas are pretty permissive.

There's nothing at the federal level.

There's nothing at the federal level.

What they do is they try to kind of shoehorn avs into existing rules that were ridden before autonomous vehicles were around. And there have been several efforts in Congress and then the Senate to pass rules, and they've always tripped up over something or other. What the Transportation Department could do is they could streamline permitting and they could expand the use of evs from what they have now, which basically says if you get an exemption for a vehicle that doesn't have a steering wheel and brake pedal, for example, you can run twenty five hundred of those a year.

What they do is they try to kind of shoehorn avs into existing rules that were ridden before autonomous vehicles were around. And there have been several efforts in Congress and then the Senate to pass rules, and they've always tripped up over something or other. What the Transportation Department could do is they could streamline permitting and they could expand the use of evs from what they have now, which basically says if you get an exemption for a vehicle that doesn't have a steering wheel and brake pedal, for example, you can run twenty five hundred of those a year.

That's it. General Motors tried.

That's it. General Motors tried.

To get this exemption two years, they waited around, they finally dropped the project. And only one other company that I know of, neuro a startup that has that delivers goods, not people in their robotaxis or in their autonomous vehicles, got an exemption. So it's tough to get and very limited.

To get this exemption two years, they waited around, they finally dropped the project. And only one other company that I know of, neuro a startup that has that delivers goods, not people in their robotaxis or in their autonomous vehicles, got an exemption. So it's tough to get and very limited.

Hey, listen, one thing I want to ask you.

Hey, listen, one thing I want to ask you.

I mean, I get it that having a patch work is probably not great on something like that, So I kind of get the understanding of the need for a federal framework. Having said that, don't we still have a lot of safety issues to figure this one out.

I mean, I get it that having a patch work is probably not great on something like that, So I kind of get the understanding of the need for a federal framework. Having said that, don't we still have a lot of safety issues to figure this one out.

There are, And that's why I think the fact that the Transportation Department under Trump wants to do this is good news for autonomous vehicle companies because you get the start of a framework, you know, at that level, and maybe instead of twenty five hundred vehicles, they could expand that and they could streamline that process. But to really scale this up and to make this a regular thing, you're probably still going to need a law passed by Congress. You're going to need the Senate in the House to both weigh in and to prove this, and that's what's always been tough. You have safety groups, you have trial lawyers groups, you have unions who come in and weigh in, and politicians get cold feet because these constituents aren't crazy about autonomy. And look, you do have safety concern here with you know, if you just get too permissive, this is the wild Western. You've got robotaxis and autonomous trucks all over the place.

There are, And that's why I think the fact that the Transportation Department under Trump wants to do this is good news for autonomous vehicle companies because you get the start of a framework, you know, at that level, and maybe instead of twenty five hundred vehicles, they could expand that and they could streamline that process. But to really scale this up and to make this a regular thing, you're probably still going to need a law passed by Congress. You're going to need the Senate in the House to both weigh in and to prove this, and that's what's always been tough. You have safety groups, you have trial lawyers groups, you have unions who come in and weigh in, and politicians get cold feet because these constituents aren't crazy about autonomy. And look, you do have safety concern here with you know, if you just get too permissive, this is the wild Western. You've got robotaxis and autonomous trucks all over the place.

You know, some people are going to be concerned about that. And we'll still have a debate on this.

You know, some people are going to be concerned about that. And we'll still have a debate on this.

Holy shit, Hey, David, how's all this playing out in Detroit? I mean, you're in motor City right now. This is a state that was considered a toss up swing state, battleground state, call it whatever you want. It went for it for Trump this time. If you're one of the folks who works at one of these American auto manufacturers and you see Elon Musk by the side of Donald Trump day in and day out, what are you thinking right now?

Holy shit, Hey, David, how's all this playing out in Detroit? I mean, you're in motor City right now. This is a state that was considered a toss up swing state, battleground state, call it whatever you want. It went for it for Trump this time. If you're one of the folks who works at one of these American auto manufacturers and you see Elon Musk by the side of Donald Trump day in and day out, what are you thinking right now?

I think the biggest worry they would have it wouldn't be for robotaxi, by the way, I think the bigger fear is that with few economy rules and with incentives for electric vehicles that you know, Elon Musk is sitting next to Donald Trump down on mar Lago if he's okay with getting rid of the seventy five hundred hour consumer tax credit to buy evs because.

I think the biggest worry they would have it wouldn't be for robotaxi, by the way, I think the bigger fear is that with few economy rules and with incentives for electric vehicles that you know, Elon Musk is sitting next to Donald Trump down on mar Lago if he's okay with getting rid of the seventy five hundred hour consumer tax credit to buy evs because.

His company makes pretty good money on them.

His company makes pretty good money on them.

And sells a lot of them without tax credits, and he thinks it'll be worse on General motors, worse on Ford, Toyota, et cetera. Then that's what happened because Trump doesn't doesn't want to keep funding these tax credits. They're just tough run on these companies that are trying to build up a supply base, trying to build up a customer base, and trying to drive down costs because they're kind of at the early part of their EV business. That's worrisome to them. And then you know what happens with few economy rules. You know, are they written in a way or changed in a way that's better for Tesla adventages for the other company?

And sells a lot of them without tax credits, and he thinks it'll be worse on General motors, worse on Ford, Toyota, et cetera. Then that's what happened because Trump doesn't doesn't want to keep funding these tax credits. They're just tough run on these companies that are trying to build up a supply base, trying to build up a customer base, and trying to drive down costs because they're kind of at the early part of their EV business. That's worrisome to them. And then you know what happens with few economy rules. You know, are they written in a way or changed in a way that's better for Tesla adventages for the other company?

Yep.

Yep.

So that's what I wanted to get at, is like, what about Elon's influence. It's not like you have you know, Mary Bara having the ear of the incoming president day in and day out or another auto executive. I mean, Elon Musk is on the plane. He's going to UFC fights. He's down to mar A Lago. He's there the whole time.

So that's what I wanted to get at, is like, what about Elon's influence. It's not like you have you know, Mary Bara having the ear of the incoming president day in and day out or another auto executive. I mean, Elon Musk is on the plane. He's going to UFC fights. He's down to mar A Lago. He's there the whole time.

That's right.

That's right.

He's spending an awful lot of time there. So he's going to have he's going to be weighing in on the agenda for the auto industry. Pretty have we we'll see.

He's spending an awful lot of time there. So he's going to have he's going to be weighing in on the agenda for the auto industry. Pretty have we we'll see.

But are folks in Detroit, the major executives at the major US auto manufacturers like wait a minute, unfair advantage.

But are folks in Detroit, the major executives at the major US auto manufacturers like wait a minute, unfair advantage.

They're in a tough spot because they didn't always get their way with Trump or with Biden for that matter, when they were lobbying the old fashioned way, and now they've got this new gigantic wrinkle where one of their prime competitors is basically probably the most influential personality in President elect Trump's center circle.

They're in a tough spot because they didn't always get their way with Trump or with Biden for that matter, when they were lobbying the old fashioned way, and now they've got this new gigantic wrinkle where one of their prime competitors is basically probably the most influential personality in President elect Trump's center circle.

That was David Welsh, Bloomberg News Detroit bureau chief.

That was David Welsh, Bloomberg News Detroit bureau chief.

Coming up, the vocal vaccine skeptic that is now the pick to become the nation's top health official.

Coming up, the vocal vaccine skeptic that is now the pick to become the nation's top health official.

What the selection of Rfk Junior may mean for healthcare in America. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. This is Bloomberg.

What the selection of Rfk Junior may mean for healthcare in America. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. This is Bloomberg.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch US Live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen on Apple card Play and the Broud Auto with a Bloomberg Business app, or watch US Live on YouTube.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch US Live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen on Apple card Play and the Broud Auto with a Bloomberg Business app, or watch US Live on YouTube.

Well.

Well.

Robert F.

Robert F.

Kennedy Junior's selection to serve as president like Donald Trump's top health official is prompting questions from policy watchers over how the pick will handle the range of health and really key health policies that would fall under his purview.

Kennedy Junior's selection to serve as president like Donald Trump's top health official is prompting questions from policy watchers over how the pick will handle the range of health and really key health policies that would fall under his purview.

He's an environmental lawyer and vocal vaccine skeptic. He's publicly taken positions against food additives and immunization recommendations, but the nominee for Secretary of the US Department of Health and Human Services has been relatively quiet on many of the other issues he would oversee while leading thirteen supporting agencies in more than eighty thousand federal employees. So let's get to the interview we got with us doctor Paul Offitt, director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, who joins us from Philadelphia. Doctor, good to have you with us. How might RFK Junior impact healthcare, food, medical research and more? Here in the US.

He's an environmental lawyer and vocal vaccine skeptic. He's publicly taken positions against food additives and immunization recommendations, but the nominee for Secretary of the US Department of Health and Human Services has been relatively quiet on many of the other issues he would oversee while leading thirteen supporting agencies in more than eighty thousand federal employees. So let's get to the interview we got with us doctor Paul Offitt, director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, who joins us from Philadelphia. Doctor, good to have you with us. How might RFK Junior impact healthcare, food, medical research and more? Here in the US.

He is a very long anti vaccine activist. He is a science denihilist, and he is a conspiracy theorist. This is not the kind of person you want to head health agencies. I mean, he has said that no vaccine is a benefit. He has said that the polio vaccine killed more people than it ever saved. He thinks that HIV human am deficiency virus is not the cause of AIDS. He's an AIDS denialist. He thinks we should drink raw milk, which will put us once again in a position of risking things like campelo backer and he call I and salmonella. He thinks that the SARS virus was created in the laboratory and specifically designed to spare Ashkenazi Jews in Chinese and target whites and blacks. I mean, this is the man you want to head health agencies.

He is a very long anti vaccine activist. He is a science denihilist, and he is a conspiracy theorist. This is not the kind of person you want to head health agencies. I mean, he has said that no vaccine is a benefit. He has said that the polio vaccine killed more people than it ever saved. He thinks that HIV human am deficiency virus is not the cause of AIDS. He's an AIDS denialist. He thinks we should drink raw milk, which will put us once again in a position of risking things like campelo backer and he call I and salmonella. He thinks that the SARS virus was created in the laboratory and specifically designed to spare Ashkenazi Jews in Chinese and target whites and blacks. I mean, this is the man you want to head health agencies.

I don't think So what scares you the most, Well, what scares.

I don't think So what scares you the most, Well, what scares.

Me the most is is that that he now has has a bigger platform to be anti vaccine. So, I mean, he's always had a platform owing to the famous name, but now that he's even considered for this position gives him a certain level of credibility which he certainly doesn't deserve. Let's suppose you have a vaccine that is submitted to the FDA for licensure, and it's it's excellent, and it's better than what we've had. I think, you know, say I'm on the FDA Vaccine Devisory Committee. Let's say that we recommend a licensure, and then the FDA considers that recommendation and degrees he could say, no, I think they're to be more study. Similarly, he could try and strip away the CDC's capacity to recommend vaccines. He could take the advisory committees to both those agencies, FDA and CDC and try and stock it with people who are similarly like minded science denialists, such as himself. I don't understand this. And when he talks about, for example, something that makes sense, which is trying to make our country healthier, decrease obesity, decrease type two diabetes and the consequences of those disorders such as strokes and heart attacks, I'm all for that great idea, but there are a lot of people out there who could do that job much better than he can, given his science denialism.

Me the most is is that that he now has has a bigger platform to be anti vaccine. So, I mean, he's always had a platform owing to the famous name, but now that he's even considered for this position gives him a certain level of credibility which he certainly doesn't deserve. Let's suppose you have a vaccine that is submitted to the FDA for licensure, and it's it's excellent, and it's better than what we've had. I think, you know, say I'm on the FDA Vaccine Devisory Committee. Let's say that we recommend a licensure, and then the FDA considers that recommendation and degrees he could say, no, I think they're to be more study. Similarly, he could try and strip away the CDC's capacity to recommend vaccines. He could take the advisory committees to both those agencies, FDA and CDC and try and stock it with people who are similarly like minded science denialists, such as himself. I don't understand this. And when he talks about, for example, something that makes sense, which is trying to make our country healthier, decrease obesity, decrease type two diabetes and the consequences of those disorders such as strokes and heart attacks, I'm all for that great idea, but there are a lot of people out there who could do that job much better than he can, given his science denialism.

Doctor Offitt on vaccine specifically, Robert F. Kennedy, as you know, has often been referred to as a vaccine skeptic. You call yourself a vaccine skeptic.

Doctor Offitt on vaccine specifically, Robert F. Kennedy, as you know, has often been referred to as a vaccine skeptic. You call yourself a vaccine skeptic.

What's the difference.

What's the difference.

A skeptic is somebody who says, prove it to me, show me you're right. So when we sit around the table at the FDA Vaccine Advisor Committee and consider vaccines, as we did for the COVID vaccines, for example, in December of twenty twenty, show us the data, prove that it's effect, that prove that it's safe, so that we can then recommend it in good conscience. That's skepticisms. Skepticism is healthy. He's a cynic. He's a vaccine cynic. He doesn't believe the data. He thinks that there are dark, evil forces working behind the scenes that are misrepresenting data. What he doesn't realize is that that there is no hiding. Even a farm pharmacytical company misrepresented data on safety or efficacy that will soon be found out because there are post marketing studies like that can be done by the Vaccine Safety Data Link, where you'll know if there's a problem immediately. There is no hiding. So his whole premise is wrong.

A skeptic is somebody who says, prove it to me, show me you're right. So when we sit around the table at the FDA Vaccine Advisor Committee and consider vaccines, as we did for the COVID vaccines, for example, in December of twenty twenty, show us the data, prove that it's effect, that prove that it's safe, so that we can then recommend it in good conscience. That's skepticisms. Skepticism is healthy. He's a cynic. He's a vaccine cynic. He doesn't believe the data. He thinks that there are dark, evil forces working behind the scenes that are misrepresenting data. What he doesn't realize is that that there is no hiding. Even a farm pharmacytical company misrepresented data on safety or efficacy that will soon be found out because there are post marketing studies like that can be done by the Vaccine Safety Data Link, where you'll know if there's a problem immediately. There is no hiding. So his whole premise is wrong.

One thing that I've been wondering is how different are we than other developed countries or other wealthy countries when it comes to vaccine schedules. Doctor, Do we do things differently than other countries around the world.

One thing that I've been wondering is how different are we than other developed countries or other wealthy countries when it comes to vaccine schedules. Doctor, Do we do things differently than other countries around the world.

We tend to recommend more vaccines than most other countries. So, for example, the chicken pox vaccine, which came onto the market in nineteen ninety five, is not used in a number of developed world countries. They're willing to have children suffer ticken pox. In this country, obviously, there would be millions of cases of chicken pox a year, and there'd be about seventy five to two hundred people who would die of chicken pox, and there would be tens of thousands of hospitalizations. So we thought that was worth eliminating. But you know, not all countries felt the same way.

We tend to recommend more vaccines than most other countries. So, for example, the chicken pox vaccine, which came onto the market in nineteen ninety five, is not used in a number of developed world countries. They're willing to have children suffer ticken pox. In this country, obviously, there would be millions of cases of chicken pox a year, and there'd be about seventy five to two hundred people who would die of chicken pox, and there would be tens of thousands of hospitalizations. So we thought that was worth eliminating. But you know, not all countries felt the same way.

Other than that, though, are there aren't big differences?

Other than that, though, are there aren't big differences?

No, No, For the most part, the developed world doesn't like children.

No, No, For the most part, the developed world doesn't like children.

So we would.

So we would.

So if you did over end up overseeing the CDC and changing the recommendations, we'd be an outlier in this country. Based on some of the recommendations that he.

So if you did over end up overseeing the CDC and changing the recommendations, we'd be an outlier in this country. Based on some of the recommendations that he.

Could make, right, I think his fanatical anti vaccine activism has already scared people. I mean, if you look, for example, over the last few years, their number of cases of measles have increased dramatically. Last year we had three thousand cases of protessler hooping cough. This year we have seventeen thousand. We've had more than two hundred children less than eighteen years of eight dive influenza over the pissure. That's a high number. So you're already seeing an erosion in trust, already seeing an erosion in vaccine rates among kindergartens, and as a consequence, you're seeing an increase in infectious diseases that are preventable. It's unconscionable.

Could make, right, I think his fanatical anti vaccine activism has already scared people. I mean, if you look, for example, over the last few years, their number of cases of measles have increased dramatically. Last year we had three thousand cases of protessler hooping cough. This year we have seventeen thousand. We've had more than two hundred children less than eighteen years of eight dive influenza over the pissure. That's a high number. So you're already seeing an erosion in trust, already seeing an erosion in vaccine rates among kindergartens, and as a consequence, you're seeing an increase in infectious diseases that are preventable. It's unconscionable.

I have to say.

I have to say.

I have talked with colleagues and friends and associates who have autistic children now adults, and who are open to the idea that maybe vaccines cause this problem. So like there is you know, I've had these discussions. I guess what I wonder about, are we going to maybe depending on what comes out, if RFK is indeed our next top health voice here in the administration, that will that potentially lead to maybe some kind of ruling or mandate that comes down that says we don't believe in vaccines, and then are they not covered by insurance? Like, how does this potentially play out realistically?

I have talked with colleagues and friends and associates who have autistic children now adults, and who are open to the idea that maybe vaccines cause this problem. So like there is you know, I've had these discussions. I guess what I wonder about, are we going to maybe depending on what comes out, if RFK is indeed our next top health voice here in the administration, that will that potentially lead to maybe some kind of ruling or mandate that comes down that says we don't believe in vaccines, and then are they not covered by insurance? Like, how does this potentially play out realistically?

Right?

Right?

So, so there's the Vaccine for Children's Program, which was born in the nineteen nineties, and the Clinton administration, which basically covers about half of the vaccines in this country for children who are either under insured or uninsured. I don't think he could touch that. I mean, that's really a congressional program. The Congress would have to agree to that. I can't imagine that happened. He could make it more difficult to get insurance generally for vaccines, making them more expensive for the consumer, that's possible. I mean, I think he'll do everything he can to lessen the imunization rate. This is what he says. I think that, you know, the parents should make decisions well with their doctor and basically pull the CCC out of it. Let let us look at the real data. And he's going to show us the real data because only he knows the real data because he's a conspiracy theorist. It's it's hard to watch. I do think there'll be an erosion in vaccine rates and regarding autism, it's fair to ask the question. My child was fine, they got a vaccine, Now they're not fine. Could the vaccine have done it? That's an answerable question, and it's been answered. There's been eighteen studies done in seven country on three con instead have shown vaccines don't cause autism. Question asked unanswered.

So, so there's the Vaccine for Children's Program, which was born in the nineteen nineties, and the Clinton administration, which basically covers about half of the vaccines in this country for children who are either under insured or uninsured. I don't think he could touch that. I mean, that's really a congressional program. The Congress would have to agree to that. I can't imagine that happened. He could make it more difficult to get insurance generally for vaccines, making them more expensive for the consumer, that's possible. I mean, I think he'll do everything he can to lessen the imunization rate. This is what he says. I think that, you know, the parents should make decisions well with their doctor and basically pull the CCC out of it. Let let us look at the real data. And he's going to show us the real data because only he knows the real data because he's a conspiracy theorist. It's it's hard to watch. I do think there'll be an erosion in vaccine rates and regarding autism, it's fair to ask the question. My child was fine, they got a vaccine, Now they're not fine. Could the vaccine have done it? That's an answerable question, and it's been answered. There's been eighteen studies done in seven country on three con instead have shown vaccines don't cause autism. Question asked unanswered.

Is the medical community get, you know, gearing up to fight back?

Is the medical community get, you know, gearing up to fight back?

Yes, but again, you know we're not good at this stuff. I mean I think, well, fight will certainly fight back the way we knew how, which is which is to try and present all the data that we know supports vaccines. But this is really becoming a political issue, so I think it's going to have to have a political solution. I think we're gonna have to find those senators who, assuming there is a confirmation hearing, that are reasonable enough to say that this is not the guy you want in that position.

Yes, but again, you know we're not good at this stuff. I mean I think, well, fight will certainly fight back the way we knew how, which is which is to try and present all the data that we know supports vaccines. But this is really becoming a political issue, so I think it's going to have to have a political solution. I think we're gonna have to find those senators who, assuming there is a confirmation hearing, that are reasonable enough to say that this is not the guy you want in that position.

So, after RFK was announced, the governor of Colorado, Jared Polis, sent a post on accident said he was excited because of a vaccine choice and he helped push back in Colorado when it came to this particular topic. Can you share your view as to why it's important for lots of people to get vaccines? Because if it is a parent's choice, and you know that parent chooses to get their kid vaccinate against something, it's not necessarily that that kid is actually protected if other kids aren't protected.

So, after RFK was announced, the governor of Colorado, Jared Polis, sent a post on accident said he was excited because of a vaccine choice and he helped push back in Colorado when it came to this particular topic. Can you share your view as to why it's important for lots of people to get vaccines? Because if it is a parent's choice, and you know that parent chooses to get their kid vaccinate against something, it's not necessarily that that kid is actually protected if other kids aren't protected.

Exactly right. So if you step on a rusty nail and you go to the doctor and you say I don't want a tennis vaccine and you get tetanus, no one's going to catch tennis from you. It's not a contagious disease. Measles is, influenza is, and others are. So a choice not to get vaccine is a choice not only for yourself, but for those with whom you come in contact. And remember there are about nine million people in this country who can't be vaccinated because they're getting chemotherapy for their cancer or immute suppressive therapy for the autoimmune diseases. They depend on those around them to protect them. Do we have any responsibility for our neighbors? It is hard to watch. If you look what happened with Stars Kobe two, those counties that were generally under vaccinated had much higher rates of hospitalization and death than those counties that were highly vaccinated, And that affects the people. If you're better off, actually being unvaccinated living in a highly vaccinated community than being vaccinated living in a highly unvaccinated unity.

Exactly right. So if you step on a rusty nail and you go to the doctor and you say I don't want a tennis vaccine and you get tetanus, no one's going to catch tennis from you. It's not a contagious disease. Measles is, influenza is, and others are. So a choice not to get vaccine is a choice not only for yourself, but for those with whom you come in contact. And remember there are about nine million people in this country who can't be vaccinated because they're getting chemotherapy for their cancer or immute suppressive therapy for the autoimmune diseases. They depend on those around them to protect them. Do we have any responsibility for our neighbors? It is hard to watch. If you look what happened with Stars Kobe two, those counties that were generally under vaccinated had much higher rates of hospitalization and death than those counties that were highly vaccinated, And that affects the people. If you're better off, actually being unvaccinated living in a highly vaccinated community than being vaccinated living in a highly unvaccinated unity.

That's wild to hear.

That's wild to hear.

What about the power of states and local municipalities over this? For example, I have a kid in the New York City public school district and he has to get a certain number of vaccines in order to actually be able to go to school. That's a way for them to say, Okay, well we are making this choice, or for the parent to make this choice to vaccinate vaccinate their kids against these things. Isn't there power are there at the local level?

What about the power of states and local municipalities over this? For example, I have a kid in the New York City public school district and he has to get a certain number of vaccines in order to actually be able to go to school. That's a way for them to say, Okay, well we are making this choice, or for the parent to make this choice to vaccinate vaccinate their kids against these things. Isn't there power are there at the local level?

Yeah? Well, mandates are state ron I mean, there's not federal mandates. I mean the school vaccine mandates are done by states in different states actually have different vaccines that day mandate. But we've had school mandates from the books for decades. There was about by nineteen sixty four to five, about twenty five schools states had school mandates. By the mid seventies, that went up to forty. By nineteen eighty one, all fifty states had school vaccine mandates. And with that, with the enforcement of school vaccine mandates, we went from forty seven thousand cases of measles a year seventy five thousand cases of measles a year and one hundred and fifty deaths from measles a year to eliminating that disease from this country by the year two thousand. But it's come back in part because the critical percentage of parents are choosing not to vaccinate their children.

Yeah? Well, mandates are state ron I mean, there's not federal mandates. I mean the school vaccine mandates are done by states in different states actually have different vaccines that day mandate. But we've had school mandates from the books for decades. There was about by nineteen sixty four to five, about twenty five schools states had school mandates. By the mid seventies, that went up to forty. By nineteen eighty one, all fifty states had school vaccine mandates. And with that, with the enforcement of school vaccine mandates, we went from forty seven thousand cases of measles a year seventy five thousand cases of measles a year and one hundred and fifty deaths from measles a year to eliminating that disease from this country by the year two thousand. But it's come back in part because the critical percentage of parents are choosing not to vaccinate their children.

Yeah, numbers tell a story. Hey, listen, speaking of choice revaccination. You know we do have choices what to eat, We have choices. McDonald's is clearly a favorite a president like Donald Trump.

Yeah, numbers tell a story. Hey, listen, speaking of choice revaccination. You know we do have choices what to eat, We have choices. McDonald's is clearly a favorite a president like Donald Trump.

During the campaign.

During the campaign.

He even helps serve customers at one restaurant. I got to say, I'm a fan of their fries.

He even helps serve customers at one restaurant. I got to say, I'm a fan of their fries.

Full disclosure.

Full disclosure.

We've seen Donald Trump and RFK Junior and Elon and others chowing down on McDonald's together.

We've seen Donald Trump and RFK Junior and Elon and others chowing down on McDonald's together.

Oh, to be fair, rfk's holding the burger. He's not chowing yet.

Oh, to be fair, rfk's holding the burger. He's not chowing yet.

Okay, so maybe he's just holding.

Okay, so maybe he's just holding.

Maybe's a little osmosis going on there. Just got about thirty seconds here. I do think about the role of Donald Trump, what impact he might have in terms of his thinking about health and medical care and all that good stuff. I mean, we saw what he did during his first term with COVID and getting a vaccine, So how do you think his impact might be on what goes on in this area?

Maybe's a little osmosis going on there. Just got about thirty seconds here. I do think about the role of Donald Trump, what impact he might have in terms of his thinking about health and medical care and all that good stuff. I mean, we saw what he did during his first term with COVID and getting a vaccine, So how do you think his impact might be on what goes on in this area?

Now, I think he's hard to predict Donald Trump, but I think that scene, though, with him sitting there and Elon Musk and RFK Junior and Mike Johnson and others eating Donald's I think my take home from a message from that scene was Donald Trump telling Robert Kennedy Jr. You'll eat what I tell you.

Now, I think he's hard to predict Donald Trump, but I think that scene, though, with him sitting there and Elon Musk and RFK Junior and Mike Johnson and others eating Donald's I think my take home from a message from that scene was Donald Trump telling Robert Kennedy Jr. You'll eat what I tell you.

To our thanks to doctor Paul Offitt, director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital in Philadelphia.

To our thanks to doctor Paul Offitt, director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital in Philadelphia.

Still ahead on Bloomberg Business she calls herself the only Arab woman in the Middle East running a VC fund.

Still ahead on Bloomberg Business she calls herself the only Arab woman in the Middle East running a VC fund.

And she's investing in everything from agtech to AI. This is Bloomberg.

And she's investing in everything from agtech to AI. This is Bloomberg.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live each weekday starting a two pm Easter on applecar Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty Carol.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live each weekday starting a two pm Easter on applecar Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty Carol.

We know that Dubai is the Middle East main business hub, but get this, Abu Dhabi and Riad now each control over a trillion dollars in sovereign wealth, making them the biggest pools of capital in the world.

We know that Dubai is the Middle East main business hub, but get this, Abu Dhabi and Riad now each control over a trillion dollars in sovereign wealth, making them the biggest pools of capital in the world.

It's massive, well talk about a viable competitor. That has prompted firms like Blackrock CEO Larry Fink setting up operations in the two countries, and earlier this week Blackrock received a commercial license to operate in Abu Dhabi. It's the latest sign that the asset manager is looking to deepen its ties across the region.

It's massive, well talk about a viable competitor. That has prompted firms like Blackrock CEO Larry Fink setting up operations in the two countries, and earlier this week Blackrock received a commercial license to operate in Abu Dhabi. It's the latest sign that the asset manager is looking to deepen its ties across the region.

Someone who's got her finger on the pulse of all things when it comes to capital in the Middle East is North Swede. She's founder and managing partner at the UAE based international VC firm Global Ventures. Her company has got offices all over the region, including in Dubai, Cairo and riod And. Noor says she's the only Arab women in the Middle East running a VC fund.

Someone who's got her finger on the pulse of all things when it comes to capital in the Middle East is North Swede. She's founder and managing partner at the UAE based international VC firm Global Ventures. Her company has got offices all over the region, including in Dubai, Cairo and riod And. Noor says she's the only Arab women in the Middle East running a VC fund.

So last quarter was the first quarter where we had fifty one percent of venture dollars in the region actually coming from abroad, So that ecosystem is going very.

So last quarter was the first quarter where we had fifty one percent of venture dollars in the region actually coming from abroad, So that ecosystem is going very.

Quickly versus domestics.

Quickly versus domestics.

Domestically, which is usually I mean five years ago it was seventy five percent domestic. Now it's forty nine percent domestic domestic meaning regional vcs investing. So we have many of the international vcs looking at the region not just for regional opportunity, but for true innovation, which is different.

Domestically, which is usually I mean five years ago it was seventy five percent domestic. Now it's forty nine percent domestic domestic meaning regional vcs investing. So we have many of the international vcs looking at the region not just for regional opportunity, but for true innovation, which is different.

And you see that especially in the UAE.

And you see that especially in the UAE.

So in the UEA specifically, last year, seventy three percent of the GDP was non oil sector. So it's not that the region's trying to diverse.

So in the UEA specifically, last year, seventy three percent of the GDP was non oil sector. So it's not that the region's trying to diverse.

Say that again.

Say that again.

The reason I think about that, I remember, I don't know, thirty years ago, like a national geographic and it just talked about the Middle East was thinking about kind of a non carbon based economy, like they knew things were going to change. Say that number again.

The reason I think about that, I remember, I don't know, thirty years ago, like a national geographic and it just talked about the Middle East was thinking about kind of a non carbon based economy, like they knew things were going to change. Say that number again.

So seventy three percent of ua GDP last year was non oil related. So when you think about what that means, it's not that the regions trying to diversify had diversified, or at least the UAE has Saudi's following suit and the next ones, and so it is really an innovation economy and knowledge economy moving towards you know, new sectors rather than just we're stuck in oil. So that correlated with how much international funding is coming in, really puts us in a position where all sectors are innovative right now, we are leap flogging and some innovations where we haven't had legacy incumbents really you know, take over those sectors in the past.

So seventy three percent of ua GDP last year was non oil related. So when you think about what that means, it's not that the regions trying to diversify had diversified, or at least the UAE has Saudi's following suit and the next ones, and so it is really an innovation economy and knowledge economy moving towards you know, new sectors rather than just we're stuck in oil. So that correlated with how much international funding is coming in, really puts us in a position where all sectors are innovative right now, we are leap flogging and some innovations where we haven't had legacy incumbents really you know, take over those sectors in the past.

So what are the exciting areas in the economy that you're seeing right now?

So what are the exciting areas in the economy that you're seeing right now?

So right now, the two most exciting areas that we are focused on are supply chain. So anything that's supply chain technology focused really reinventing supply chain. So even if you think through my manufacturing, so where we've historically manufactured things around the world and then ship them, can you manufacture regionally? So we don't have incumbents in manufacturing. We've never had a large manufacturing industry. It's such a small percentage GDP. But if you were to take the world's best technology today, what does that look like. It's added of manufacturing. It's three D printing. So we have companies in the region like IMENSA, which are generally just building the best in class technology globally, building the rule books globally to do spare part manufacturing using three D printing for oil and gas and other industries.

So right now, the two most exciting areas that we are focused on are supply chain. So anything that's supply chain technology focused really reinventing supply chain. So even if you think through my manufacturing, so where we've historically manufactured things around the world and then ship them, can you manufacture regionally? So we don't have incumbents in manufacturing. We've never had a large manufacturing industry. It's such a small percentage GDP. But if you were to take the world's best technology today, what does that look like. It's added of manufacturing. It's three D printing. So we have companies in the region like IMENSA, which are generally just building the best in class technology globally, building the rule books globally to do spare part manufacturing using three D printing for oil and gas and other industries.

And so we start thinking that what's going on.

And so we start thinking that what's going on.

Haven't we had like talked about three D printing so many times the iterations the site.

Haven't we had like talked about three D printing so many times the iterations the site.

Yeah, there was the whole like consumer push. I was at CEES one year where there was like this whole section of like here the you know, plastic injected three D printers that can make whatever you design, and everyone's going to have one of these and they're going to be able to repair their own stuff.

Yeah, there was the whole like consumer push. I was at CEES one year where there was like this whole section of like here the you know, plastic injected three D printers that can make whatever you design, and everyone's going to have one of these and they're going to be able to repair their own stuff.

We're not.

We're not.

There's nobility, but we are so. I mean, even if you take a look at goodness, some makeup companies, the brushes that you can use for blush, those are for a large company, us for your blush, sorry for your blush, all of our so we all look alive. But ultimately those are large three D printed, so you can take a look at you don't know that it's three D printed, but a lot of those have been three D printed. Now when you take a look at more industrial applications, so for example, the oil and gas industry has ninety billion dollars sitting in square parts, right, So these are made using raw materials, shipped across the world and then stored in a warehouse, draining working capital just in case they're needed. Twenty to thirty percent of each of that warehouse gets thrown away each year for HSU.

There's nobility, but we are so. I mean, even if you take a look at goodness, some makeup companies, the brushes that you can use for blush, those are for a large company, us for your blush, sorry for your blush, all of our so we all look alive. But ultimately those are large three D printed, so you can take a look at you don't know that it's three D printed, but a lot of those have been three D printed. Now when you take a look at more industrial applications, so for example, the oil and gas industry has ninety billion dollars sitting in square parts, right, So these are made using raw materials, shipped across the world and then stored in a warehouse, draining working capital just in case they're needed. Twenty to thirty percent of each of that warehouse gets thrown away each year for HSU.

So now you can do kind of just in time, just.

So now you can do kind of just in time, just.

In time manufacturing, not just in time inventory. So you've completely shifted that. And you said, is it cost effective?

In time manufacturing, not just in time inventory. So you've completely shifted that. And you said, is it cost effective?

It's very cost effective.

It's very cost effective.

It's cheaper, especially because you're not shipping a half your cost the world. It's more sustainable, right, You're using new materials. So the reason it's really come forward to the last ten years is the material science has now allowed you to really use materials that are strong alloys, not just natural ones. So as you think through supply chains, it starts with manufacturing. Where are you making stuff? And then how are you shipping it? And how does your last miole logistics look like? Can you use drones to deliver in parts of the world? So Global South generally doesn't have as much infrastructure in terms of roads infrastructure, so why would you ever use diesel trucks that are twenty years old on rickety roads in large, large economies, larger markets. Our geography is when you could use drones.

It's cheaper, especially because you're not shipping a half your cost the world. It's more sustainable, right, You're using new materials. So the reason it's really come forward to the last ten years is the material science has now allowed you to really use materials that are strong alloys, not just natural ones. So as you think through supply chains, it starts with manufacturing. Where are you making stuff? And then how are you shipping it? And how does your last miole logistics look like? Can you use drones to deliver in parts of the world? So Global South generally doesn't have as much infrastructure in terms of roads infrastructure, so why would you ever use diesel trucks that are twenty years old on rickety roads in large, large economies, larger markets. Our geography is when you could use drones.

To do be to be deliveries.

To do be to be deliveries.

So you think about how do you leap frog supply chains? How do you get to a world where five years from now it's unrecognizable five years ago, and that's where we're investing.

So you think about how do you leap frog supply chains? How do you get to a world where five years from now it's unrecognizable five years ago, and that's where we're investing.

That's what we're seeing that. And then the other sector is really food.

That's what we're seeing that. And then the other sector is really food.

Security, So the whole world has had to push towards food security. The Mini region or the GCC both still import eighty five percent of the food. So if you think about how do we produce food, how do we move towards not just vertical farming as we've known it, but better versions of it. So we look at companies that, for example, reduce energy consumption for vertical farming or indoor farming by up to ninety percent because of the way they treat water, because of the material science to prove these farms, and now they're exporting this technology everywhere in the world. Fifteen different countries in the US are using this technology to reduce energy consumption for indoor farming so that you can have more sustainable food production. So when you think about food security, when you think about supply chain, our part of the world and MINA and then GCC is still nascent in that we don't have the legacy incumbents and that industry sorted that you're trying to improve it. You're just trying to invent it, and so with that comes a lot of this innovation, the really quick adoption that allows you to leapfrog and create these new markets with the legacy overhang to some of the legacy overhang.

Security, So the whole world has had to push towards food security. The Mini region or the GCC both still import eighty five percent of the food. So if you think about how do we produce food, how do we move towards not just vertical farming as we've known it, but better versions of it. So we look at companies that, for example, reduce energy consumption for vertical farming or indoor farming by up to ninety percent because of the way they treat water, because of the material science to prove these farms, and now they're exporting this technology everywhere in the world. Fifteen different countries in the US are using this technology to reduce energy consumption for indoor farming so that you can have more sustainable food production. So when you think about food security, when you think about supply chain, our part of the world and MINA and then GCC is still nascent in that we don't have the legacy incumbents and that industry sorted that you're trying to improve it. You're just trying to invent it, and so with that comes a lot of this innovation, the really quick adoption that allows you to leapfrog and create these new markets with the legacy overhang to some of the legacy overhang.

I'm I'm just curious that what the fund looks like right now, given that there are all these opportunities out there. But at the same time, what we've heard over the last few years is that with rates higher across the world, it's been tougher to raise money. You have four hundred million dollars that you manage, how much of that is deployed right now versus how much you know you have on the sidelines.

I'm I'm just curious that what the fund looks like right now, given that there are all these opportunities out there. But at the same time, what we've heard over the last few years is that with rates higher across the world, it's been tougher to raise money. You have four hundred million dollars that you manage, how much of that is deployed right now versus how much you know you have on the sidelines.

So we're deploying out of our third fund, which is a two hundred million lower fund, and we're about a third way into deployment. Out of that fund, funds went and who are fully deployed, we're exiting them. We just had an exit two weeks ago. That's about twenty eight times money on our post seed position, eight times on our A position. So we're seeing a lot of innovation in the regions start to materialize.

So we're deploying out of our third fund, which is a two hundred million lower fund, and we're about a third way into deployment. Out of that fund, funds went and who are fully deployed, we're exiting them. We just had an exit two weeks ago. That's about twenty eight times money on our post seed position, eight times on our A position. So we're seeing a lot of innovation in the regions start to materialize.

It's our sixth exit. For our young firm.

It's our sixth exit. For our young firm.

To have that many exits behind us is a really good sign of the region's ability to materialize.

To have that many exits behind us is a really good sign of the region's ability to materialize.

Those who are the LPs, where are you getting the money?

Those who are the LPs, where are you getting the money?

So it's half regional, half international.

So it's half regional, half international.

So we have we can't name them, but it's a lot of international LPs that are looking at the region. A lot of them it's their first time investing in the region. Family offices and institutions, any sovereign wealth funds internationally or regionally. Internationally internationally one pension fund and large financial institutions and regionally regionally both.

So we have we can't name them, but it's a lot of international LPs that are looking at the region. A lot of them it's their first time investing in the region. Family offices and institutions, any sovereign wealth funds internationally or regionally. Internationally internationally one pension fund and large financial institutions and regionally regionally both.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we were about the last first fund in the region six years ago. Until then they had invested mainly internationally. We WEREDQ nowlinates first fund in the region. So we work with all the regional sovereigns in smaller capacities. They are looking at the region to say where can we enable growth because it's for them it's not just capital, it's also economic growth.

So we were about the last first fund in the region six years ago. Until then they had invested mainly internationally. We WEREDQ nowlinates first fund in the region. So we work with all the regional sovereigns in smaller capacities. They are looking at the region to say where can we enable growth because it's for them it's not just capital, it's also economic growth.

They can put their money back into their own economy.

They can put their money back into their own economy.

Yeah, it's similar to the pension funds and thennowments in the US how they enabled the venture ecosystem. In Europe, they enabled the venture ecosystem and then they're able to enable economic growth along with financial returns.

Yeah, it's similar to the pension funds and thennowments in the US how they enabled the venture ecosystem. In Europe, they enabled the venture ecosystem and then they're able to enable economic growth along with financial returns.

What would surprise people that what's going on in the Middle East in Africa right now.

What would surprise people that what's going on in the Middle East in Africa right now.

I think it's interesting to witness in some parts of relief. So in the UAE, for example, we have a lot of second and third time international founders have come in in the last three years and building new companies there. So they had their first exit in the US maybe or in Europe, and then as they get to their second and third ideas and they want to really address the global South because that's the fastest economic growth over the next ten to twenty years. Is more the global South than the US and Europe. We have the world's youngest population. We're sixty percent under age thirty and so as you have this population starting to grow and build. This is across Mid East Africa and Southeast age is also very young, so I used to have these populations growing. The economic growth that is ahead of us is tremendous and so being able to capitalize on that. You have many second and third time founders that are moving back specifically to the UAE or moving to the UAE.