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This is Bloomberg Business Week, insight from the reporters and editors that bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week Podcast with Carol Masser and Tim Stenovek on Bloomberg Radio.

This is Bloomberg Business Week, insight from the reporters and editors that bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week Podcast with Carol Masser and Tim Stenovek on Bloomberg Radio.

Hi, everyone, Welcome to the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week. A big week for the megacap tech companies and for artificial intelligence as the Chinese AI startup Deepseek up end of the conventional thinking about investment in AI. It all kind of came together as we passed through the earnings of Meta, Microsoft, Tesla, Apple, and Intel, just to name a few from the past week. Our take though on it all well on Harvard Business and law school professors take how the Mac seven companies are eating themselves. He'll be along to explain.

Hi, everyone, Welcome to the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week. A big week for the megacap tech companies and for artificial intelligence as the Chinese AI startup Deepseek up end of the conventional thinking about investment in AI. It all kind of came together as we passed through the earnings of Meta, Microsoft, Tesla, Apple, and Intel, just to name a few from the past week. Our take though on it all well on Harvard Business and law school professors take how the Mac seven companies are eating themselves. He'll be along to explain.

Plus, speaking of earnings, it's not just about tech, as a lot of other companies posted quarterly updates this past week, giving us snapshots of many parts of the US economy, including a big one from the world of leisure. We're talking about Royal Caribbean, who shares wrote a record wave up following a profit forecast that blew past analyst expectations. The company also shared details about waiting into a new business. Royal Caribbean CEO stop by to talk all about it.

Plus, speaking of earnings, it's not just about tech, as a lot of other companies posted quarterly updates this past week, giving us snapshots of many parts of the US economy, including a big one from the world of leisure. We're talking about Royal Caribbean, who shares wrote a record wave up following a profit forecast that blew past analyst expectations. The company also shared details about waiting into a new business. Royal Caribbean CEO stop by to talk all about it.

All of that ahead, let's start with the big megacap tech earnings. As for the Magnificent seven reported results this past week, Meta, Microsoft, Tesla, and Apple all out with their quarterly updates and outlooks, and earlier in the week the narrative shifted around the AI spend thanks to deep seeks. So there was so much going on when it comes to the world of technology.

All of that ahead, let's start with the big megacap tech earnings. As for the Magnificent seven reported results this past week, Meta, Microsoft, Tesla, and Apple all out with their quarterly updates and outlooks, and earlier in the week the narrative shifted around the AI spend thanks to deep seeks. So there was so much going on when it comes to the world of technology.

Well, look what happened on Monday and vidfl seventeen percent in a single day, at erased five hundred and eighty nine billion dollars in value. It was the biggest single day decline in market cap for any company ever. Me here they saw was watching what happened in the stock market that day closely. He's the Mazuho Financial Group, Professor of Finance at Harvard Business School and a professor at Harvard Law School. He's also contributed to Bloomberg's weekend edition. After the Nvidia selloff, he wrote in The New York Times that the value destruction illustrates something concerning happening in financial markets and can best be explained by an ancient myth of a serpent eating itself.

Well, look what happened on Monday and vidfl seventeen percent in a single day, at erased five hundred and eighty nine billion dollars in value. It was the biggest single day decline in market cap for any company ever. Me here they saw was watching what happened in the stock market that day closely. He's the Mazuho Financial Group, Professor of Finance at Harvard Business School and a professor at Harvard Law School. He's also contributed to Bloomberg's weekend edition. After the Nvidia selloff, he wrote in The New York Times that the value destruction illustrates something concerning happening in financial markets and can best be explained by an ancient myth of a serpent eating itself.

What I tried to put forward in this piece was just the theory that actually it's pretty unsustainable and that in effect, big tech is eating its own tail. This serpent image that you might have seen of a snake eating itself has been around for millennia, and I think that's kind of what's going on, which is just a way of saying this AI frenzy has in some sense been manifest by these big seven companies having a very low cost to capital. They've become the safe asset in the world. So if you are around the world you want a dollar denominated asset but with better management teams than maybe governments, better balance sheets than maybe governments, you're going to flock to them. Well what is that mean? Well, if that happens and they become the safe asset, then people don't expect much in terms of return, because that's what happens with safe assets.

What I tried to put forward in this piece was just the theory that actually it's pretty unsustainable and that in effect, big tech is eating its own tail. This serpent image that you might have seen of a snake eating itself has been around for millennia, and I think that's kind of what's going on, which is just a way of saying this AI frenzy has in some sense been manifest by these big seven companies having a very low cost to capital. They've become the safe asset in the world. So if you are around the world you want a dollar denominated asset but with better management teams than maybe governments, better balance sheets than maybe governments, you're going to flock to them. Well what is that mean? Well, if that happens and they become the safe asset, then people don't expect much in terms of return, because that's what happens with safe assets.

Well, how to.

Well, how to.

Managers respond to that?

Managers respond to that?

And the answer is you invest a lot. And that's what they've been doing, and they've been investing a lot in each other, and they've been spending like crazy. So, for example, in videos, more than half their revenues is coming from their siblings in the Big seven. So the Amazon Microsoft are spending literally two hundred million dollars a year in infrastructure spend, and they're doing buybacks hand over fist. So they are literally eating themselves and literally eating each other. And the underlying story, I think is going to be that these is going to end.

And the answer is you invest a lot. And that's what they've been doing, and they've been investing a lot in each other, and they've been spending like crazy. So, for example, in videos, more than half their revenues is coming from their siblings in the Big seven. So the Amazon Microsoft are spending literally two hundred million dollars a year in infrastructure spend, and they're doing buybacks hand over fist. So they are literally eating themselves and literally eating each other. And the underlying story, I think is going to be that these is going to end.

Up having low returns.

Up having low returns.

So when you end up giving them the prize of being a safe asset, you don't expect much from them, and they invest like crazy and then they deliver slow returns. That's what we are going to see. It won't happen today or tomorrow. It'll happen over the next five or ten years, like it happened at the beginning of the last century with railroads and steel. I think that is why it wasn't that big of surprise.

So when you end up giving them the prize of being a safe asset, you don't expect much from them, and they invest like crazy and then they deliver slow returns. That's what we are going to see. It won't happen today or tomorrow. It'll happen over the next five or ten years, like it happened at the beginning of the last century with railroads and steel. I think that is why it wasn't that big of surprise.

I want you to take a limited to this. And one of the things that we love looking at here at Bloomberg is that the supply chain functions. You pull up something like Nvidia, and so Microsoft is responsible for about nineteen percent of their revenue. Meta is about ten percent according to our latest data, super Micro about eight percent, Alphabet Google about six percent, Amazon about five percent, Dell about three percent. Like, we love to kind of get an idea of who's who's buying and so the exposure, especially if we get bad news from them, what it means for an Nvidia. So you're saying, what to concentrated or what's what's your point about? You know that they're kind of it's like there's almost closed.

I want you to take a limited to this. And one of the things that we love looking at here at Bloomberg is that the supply chain functions. You pull up something like Nvidia, and so Microsoft is responsible for about nineteen percent of their revenue. Meta is about ten percent according to our latest data, super Micro about eight percent, Alphabet Google about six percent, Amazon about five percent, Dell about three percent. Like, we love to kind of get an idea of who's who's buying and so the exposure, especially if we get bad news from them, what it means for an Nvidia. So you're saying, what to concentrated or what's what's your point about? You know that they're kind of it's like there's almost closed.

Circles right rid of a closed circle.

Circles right rid of a closed circle.

And they all are kind of like supporting one another.

And they all are kind of like supporting one another.

Yeah, so I mean effectively, what's happening is they're investing in spending money on each other and that closed circle.

Yeah, so I mean effectively, what's happening is they're investing in spending money on each other and that closed circle.

Why are they doing that? Because some would say that what we've seen over the last couple of years is that everybody has all of a sudden realized, oh my god, look at what Generator of AI can do. And so we have to build out our own.

Why are they doing that? Because some would say that what we've seen over the last couple of years is that everybody has all of a sudden realized, oh my god, look at what Generator of AI can do. And so we have to build out our own.

Systems exactly right.

Systems exactly right.

And the promise is that it is not a close circle, that one day it'll all be manifest to us what those revenues and profits are. And that is a huge bet. We are all levered to the mag seven in a way that I don't think we understand when one third of the market cap is mag seven, we're levered to it, and the global economy is levered to it, and all of that is going to be a function of the productivity of all this capital they're spending on each other.

And the promise is that it is not a close circle, that one day it'll all be manifest to us what those revenues and profits are. And that is a huge bet. We are all levered to the mag seven in a way that I don't think we understand when one third of the market cap is mag seven, we're levered to it, and the global economy is levered to it, and all of that is going to be a function of the productivity of all this capital they're spending on each other.

And what I tried.

And what I tried.

To raise in that article is it's not clear that that is going to be manifest and in fact, deep seek I think people misunderstood the Deep Seak lesson.

To raise in that article is it's not clear that that is going to be manifest and in fact, deep seek I think people misunderstood the Deep Seak lesson.

In part.

In part.

The story about Deep Seak is it is very hard to create a competitive advantage in this industry. You know, people think there's a lot of money to be made. Well, to make a lot of money, you need to be able to capture the rents. And what Deep Seak showed is that it's not clear that these rents are easily captured. And so if it's easily accessible to everyone, that doesn't mean it's not going to be transformational, Carol.

The story about Deep Seak is it is very hard to create a competitive advantage in this industry. You know, people think there's a lot of money to be made. Well, to make a lot of money, you need to be able to capture the rents. And what Deep Seak showed is that it's not clear that these rents are easily captured. And so if it's easily accessible to everyone, that doesn't mean it's not going to be transformational, Carol.

What it means is.

What it means is.

Because some would say that if it's more accessible, more people can tap into it, and first people who are supportive of it, like hence the software guys, right we all of a sudden said they were often running.

Because some would say that if it's more accessible, more people can tap into it, and first people who are supportive of it, like hence the software guys, right we all of a sudden said they were often running.

Yeah, and it could be transformational, but will a company be able to capture it?

Yeah, and it could be transformational, but will a company be able to capture it?

All?

All?

Right, So the whole premise of their market capitalizations is there's going to be seven big winners and we know who they are. It's those seven companies. And maybe that's not right even if it is transformational. If it isn't transformational, then we're all really in trouble because they're literally deploying capital at really really low rates of return, maybe negative rates of return.

Right, So the whole premise of their market capitalizations is there's going to be seven big winners and we know who they are. It's those seven companies. And maybe that's not right even if it is transformational. If it isn't transformational, then we're all really in trouble because they're literally deploying capital at really really low rates of return, maybe negative rates of return.

Your question about a mode or differentiation is an interesting one. It came up yesterday during our conversation with Caroline Hide oft Bloomberg Technology about what the difference is between Gemini, a GPT, LAMA, you know, anthropics, Claude, What is the difference between these Apart from the way they look that question, I think still a lot of investors in the private markets and the public markets are asking themselves.

Your question about a mode or differentiation is an interesting one. It came up yesterday during our conversation with Caroline Hide oft Bloomberg Technology about what the difference is between Gemini, a GPT, LAMA, you know, anthropics, Claude, What is the difference between these Apart from the way they look that question, I think still a lot of investors in the private markets and the public markets are asking themselves.

Yeah, And one theory is that it's about scale. You have to get big and you have to get big fast. And the answer is maybe deep seek suggests maybe not. And also we should just remember that having access to a lot of capital and spending it is not a competitive advantage. That is not what a competit advantages. Capital is not like the scarce resource in the world, and so.

Yeah, And one theory is that it's about scale. You have to get big and you have to get big fast. And the answer is maybe deep seek suggests maybe not. And also we should just remember that having access to a lot of capital and spending it is not a competitive advantage. That is not what a competit advantages. Capital is not like the scarce resource in the world, and so.

Especially for some of these big tech companies, right, Like we talk about their balance sheets, and typically you would say a higher rate environment would bother them, but they have so much cash that they don't have to really tap into the capital markets.

Especially for some of these big tech companies, right, Like we talk about their balance sheets, and typically you would say a higher rate environment would bother them, but they have so much cash that they don't have to really tap into the capital markets.

So so, but I think they're in a race, right, So they're spending cash hand over fist and the answers will weep. But if you don't have a sustainable advantage, then what is this race about? And I don't think there is a real mode there, and then you really have to question the whole story.

So so, but I think they're in a race, right, So they're spending cash hand over fist and the answers will weep. But if you don't have a sustainable advantage, then what is this race about? And I don't think there is a real mode there, and then you really have to question the whole story.

So I think it raises a lot of questions about where investors should be putting their money in the public market. You know, we've been talking. We talk a lot about single stocks in retirement portfolios. A lot of people are invested in indexes. If you're not playing the stock market. All the experts say, hey, just invest in the S and P five hundred index funds. What happens though, when the S and P five hundred exactly is dominated by these companies, where should people put their money?

So I think it raises a lot of questions about where investors should be putting their money in the public market. You know, we've been talking. We talk a lot about single stocks in retirement portfolios. A lot of people are invested in indexes. If you're not playing the stock market. All the experts say, hey, just invest in the S and P five hundred index funds. What happens though, when the S and P five hundred exactly is dominated by these companies, where should people put their money?

Well, that's exactly right, because the unique circumstance is that you know, I talk about the unmagnificent four ninety three, because there's a magnificent seven and there's an unmagnifics in four ninety three. And the answer is that is still the best advice. However, I think it's a good time to rethink certain things. So, for example, as you know, we are living in the twentieth year of the value growth split, where growth has just outperformed value forever, and I think it's a good occasion to revisit that. And for those of you who are listening who want to bebb still.

Well, that's exactly right, because the unique circumstance is that you know, I talk about the unmagnificent four ninety three, because there's a magnificent seven and there's an unmagnifics in four ninety three. And the answer is that is still the best advice. However, I think it's a good time to rethink certain things. So, for example, as you know, we are living in the twentieth year of the value growth split, where growth has just outperformed value forever, and I think it's a good occasion to revisit that. And for those of you who are listening who want to bebb still.

I just want to index.

I just want to index.

I just want to do that.

I just want to do that.

Well, you want to think about broader indsease, you want to think about value in disease, and you want to think about whether that whole mantra that has been good for the last twenty years is good again, especially as rates stay relatively speaking high in a way they haven't been for fifteen twenty years.

Well, you want to think about broader indsease, you want to think about value in disease, and you want to think about whether that whole mantra that has been good for the last twenty years is good again, especially as rates stay relatively speaking high in a way they haven't been for fifteen twenty years.

Although one challenge, though someone might push back and say, well VTI, which is the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index, is pretty heavily correlated to the S and P five hundred. That is true, and that's a challenge. If you want to buy the entire market, you're still just buying that's a company.

Although one challenge, though someone might push back and say, well VTI, which is the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index, is pretty heavily correlated to the S and P five hundred. That is true, and that's a challenge. If you want to buy the entire market, you're still just buying that's a company.

That is true.

That is true.

I mean in a way that is a little bit of a point of the piece, which is we are all levered to the max seven in a way that we can't get away. I think the answer is though there are narrower, you know, value indices that can help you, and there are international ways to go. So I am not a huge believer in stock pickers, so I think indices are fantastic. But there are other kinds of indices. There's non us in disease, there's yield, there's fixing. Right, there's lots of things that we for the last fifteen years have forgotten about. My previous piece was about magical thinking and how kind of long periods of low rates have infected people to think like this goes on forever, and growth the stuff happens forever, and technology solves everything. And so look when rates get back up where they are, you've got to think hard in your portfolio about fixting, come in away and cash in a way that you haven't thought about it in a long time.

I mean in a way that is a little bit of a point of the piece, which is we are all levered to the max seven in a way that we can't get away. I think the answer is though there are narrower, you know, value indices that can help you, and there are international ways to go. So I am not a huge believer in stock pickers, so I think indices are fantastic. But there are other kinds of indices. There's non us in disease, there's yield, there's fixing. Right, there's lots of things that we for the last fifteen years have forgotten about. My previous piece was about magical thinking and how kind of long periods of low rates have infected people to think like this goes on forever, and growth the stuff happens forever, and technology solves everything. And so look when rates get back up where they are, you've got to think hard in your portfolio about fixting, come in away and cash in a way that you haven't thought about it in a long time.

All right, So, professor Veisi, so how does this potentially end? You know, people have made the comparisons to the tech bubble of nineteen ninety nine, two thousand. I don't know that it's the exact same thing, but you tell me that in terms of then how does this ultimately work its way out or do these companies possibly ultimately deliver if AI is at transformative as we think it might be.

All right, So, professor Veisi, so how does this potentially end? You know, people have made the comparisons to the tech bubble of nineteen ninety nine, two thousand. I don't know that it's the exact same thing, but you tell me that in terms of then how does this ultimately work its way out or do these companies possibly ultimately deliver if AI is at transformative as we think it might be.

Yeah, So I think the analogy to the dot com bubble isn't that great in some ways because those a lot of those companies were not real companies and it was.

Yeah, So I think the analogy to the dot com bubble isn't that great in some ways because those a lot of those companies were not real companies and it was.

All a little sketchy.

All a little sketchy.

Exactly, these are real companies, like this is these are really the best companies in the world, Okay, And so what's more likely to be true is something like the nifty to fifty going to the early seventies or the early part of last century, which is railroads and steel. And what does that tell you? It's a grind. It's not a pop of a bubble. It's like five years of like zero of like zero returns, right.

Exactly, these are real companies, like this is these are really the best companies in the world, Okay, And so what's more likely to be true is something like the nifty to fifty going to the early seventies or the early part of last century, which is railroads and steel. And what does that tell you? It's a grind. It's not a pop of a bubble. It's like five years of like zero of like zero returns, right.

So it's grind.

So it's grind.

So five years of this stuff just kind of going sideways.

So five years of this stuff just kind of going sideways.

Yeahhaps like sideways, right, because it's not is it?

Yeahhaps like sideways, right, because it's not is it?

Because the build takes so long, The build.

Because the build takes so long, The build.

Takes a lot, and then we realize that the returns aren't there. Right, and for us to realize that and understand that, I mean, these folks are spending hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars.

Takes a lot, and then we realize that the returns aren't there. Right, and for us to realize that and understand that, I mean, these folks are spending hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars.

We won't really.

We won't really.

Know the productivity of that capital spent for a long time, and that's why it takes longer. And they're not like fly by night folks, right, people, And so it's going to take years and that. I don't know if that's good news or bad news, Carol, but I think that is the right way to understand it. It's it's three to five years of a grind, which also helps you understand why valuation levels are high right now and how they come back down, just very slowly and in a very boring, unexciting way.

Know the productivity of that capital spent for a long time, and that's why it takes longer. And they're not like fly by night folks, right, people, And so it's going to take years and that. I don't know if that's good news or bad news, Carol, but I think that is the right way to understand it. It's it's three to five years of a grind, which also helps you understand why valuation levels are high right now and how they come back down, just very slowly and in a very boring, unexciting way.

It's interesting because we saw in the president's first week of his term an announcement where he was flanked by Larry Ellison of Oracle Pasco Shei's son of SoftBank, Sam Altman of Open Ai, and he was tatting a one hundred billion dollar up to five hundred billion dollar investment. Yeah, is that something that concerns you when we're talking about figures of that size, Well.

It's interesting because we saw in the president's first week of his term an announcement where he was flanked by Larry Ellison of Oracle Pasco Shei's son of SoftBank, Sam Altman of Open Ai, and he was tatting a one hundred billion dollar up to five hundred billion dollar investment. Yeah, is that something that concerns you when we're talking about figures of that size, Well.

What would concern me is if capital you know, this is all about capital allocation, like everything is in the economy, and so if capital allocation is going to be guided by political litmus tests, which is, you got to spend one hundred billion, and if you're not good for the hundred billion, you know, we're not sure if you're a real deal.

What would concern me is if capital you know, this is all about capital allocation, like everything is in the economy, and so if capital allocation is going to be guided by political litmus tests, which is, you got to spend one hundred billion, and if you're not good for the hundred billion, you know, we're not sure if you're a real deal.

If it becomes a political test and it's not.

If it becomes a political test and it's not.

Being guided by the tenants of capital allocation, we're all going to suffer on that over the long run. So that's what concerns me. It's about whether this is becoming a political litmus test, like are you with us on AI or not? And then of course, as you know, CEOs had to respond, which you know, I'm good for one hundred billion, yeah, which now starts to feel like a poker match as opposed to fought full capital allocation and feels a little bit like a political litmus test.

Being guided by the tenants of capital allocation, we're all going to suffer on that over the long run. So that's what concerns me. It's about whether this is becoming a political litmus test, like are you with us on AI or not? And then of course, as you know, CEOs had to respond, which you know, I'm good for one hundred billion, yeah, which now starts to feel like a poker match as opposed to fought full capital allocation and feels a little bit like a political litmus test.

Me here they Sai Mizuoo, Financial Group professor of finance at Harvard Business School and a professor of law at Harvard Law School. Also he's contributed in the past to Bloomberg's Weekend edition.

Me here they Sai Mizuoo, Financial Group professor of finance at Harvard Business School and a professor of law at Harvard Law School. Also he's contributed in the past to Bloomberg's Weekend edition.

And be sure to check out all of our conversations breaking down the major earnings from four of the Magnificent Seven this past week, so from Meta, Microsoft, Apple, Tesla. We talked about it a lot. They can all be found on our podcast feed. Just head over to Bloomberg dot com. Slash podcasts coming up. We stay on earnings and on the stock that Road and investor Wave hire this past week following stellar quarterly results.

And be sure to check out all of our conversations breaking down the major earnings from four of the Magnificent Seven this past week, so from Meta, Microsoft, Apple, Tesla. We talked about it a lot. They can all be found on our podcast feed. Just head over to Bloomberg dot com. Slash podcasts coming up. We stay on earnings and on the stock that Road and investor Wave hire this past week following stellar quarterly results.

Well Caribbean CEO on the quarter and what's next. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. This is Bloomberg.

Well Caribbean CEO on the quarter and what's next. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. This is Bloomberg.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, or watch us live on YouTube.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, or watch us live on YouTube.

It was a big week for earnings overall among those reporting. Royal Caribbean shares of the cruise line company hit a record this past week, up the most in more than two years, lifting the whole cruise group after it reported a full year profit forecast that blue past expectations as cruise demand continues to ramp up.

It was a big week for earnings overall among those reporting. Royal Caribbean shares of the cruise line company hit a record this past week, up the most in more than two years, lifting the whole cruise group after it reported a full year profit forecast that blue past expectations as cruise demand continues to ramp up.

Royal Caribbean also talking about a new area of the cruising industry that it's setting sale for. We got more on the outlook and what's driving the business with President and CEO of Royal Caribbean Group, Jason Liberty. He joined us from Miami.

Royal Caribbean also talking about a new area of the cruising industry that it's setting sale for. We got more on the outlook and what's driving the business with President and CEO of Royal Caribbean Group, Jason Liberty. He joined us from Miami.

Certainly, we have a lot of great demographics on our side in terms of more millennials coming into this space, multi generational travel, a lot of active wealth transfer, and we see that more and more, which has been a surprise to me, just how much multi generational travel where you have the patriarch or matriarch of the family paying And I think that's been a little bit of a surprise. And there's also been just a continued flight to quality. We've invested so much in our ships and our brands and our destinations for so many decades. We're really now seeing these flowers bloom as we see consumers who are very healthy, you know, they have great balance sheets, they have great jobs, and they're high paying jobs. Having this flight to quality for our brands and for our destinations.

Certainly, we have a lot of great demographics on our side in terms of more millennials coming into this space, multi generational travel, a lot of active wealth transfer, and we see that more and more, which has been a surprise to me, just how much multi generational travel where you have the patriarch or matriarch of the family paying And I think that's been a little bit of a surprise. And there's also been just a continued flight to quality. We've invested so much in our ships and our brands and our destinations for so many decades. We're really now seeing these flowers bloom as we see consumers who are very healthy, you know, they have great balance sheets, they have great jobs, and they're high paying jobs. Having this flight to quality for our brands and for our destinations.

When you talk about that flight to quality, break that down for us, where there's strength in the business and where you're seeing particular strength and if there are any areas where you're not seeing strength.

When you talk about that flight to quality, break that down for us, where there's strength in the business and where you're seeing particular strength and if there are any areas where you're not seeing strength.

Yeah, well we're really we are actually seeing strength in all markets that we source from. We're also seeing strength for all the different places that our ships go, whether that's in the Caribbean, Alaska, the Northeast, Europe, Australia, Southeast Asia, China. We're seeing strong demand kind of across the board, which is I think really great. We're also, you know, seeing again elevated spend on our ships, and that's really across the board. A lot of it is in the gaming, the beverage area, on the culinary side, SPA, shore excursions. So people are really looking to make sure that they grab the experiences that they want to have and there and there, and and they're and they're willing to not only pay a little bit more money for that, but they're also willing to have more repetition of that, and that's how they're expanding the memories that they're building with their friends and family.

Yeah, well we're really we are actually seeing strength in all markets that we source from. We're also seeing strength for all the different places that our ships go, whether that's in the Caribbean, Alaska, the Northeast, Europe, Australia, Southeast Asia, China. We're seeing strong demand kind of across the board, which is I think really great. We're also, you know, seeing again elevated spend on our ships, and that's really across the board. A lot of it is in the gaming, the beverage area, on the culinary side, SPA, shore excursions. So people are really looking to make sure that they grab the experiences that they want to have and there and there, and and they're and they're willing to not only pay a little bit more money for that, but they're also willing to have more repetition of that, and that's how they're expanding the memories that they're building with their friends and family.

How much is that wrapping up, Jason, That is something that I've seen throughout the cruise industry that it's not just about buying the ticket to get you on the ship, but it's about what you do once you're on the ship and possibly go off to other destinations. Those bookings, right that add to the experience, but they also add to your revenue line right in your profit line.

How much is that wrapping up, Jason, That is something that I've seen throughout the cruise industry that it's not just about buying the ticket to get you on the ship, but it's about what you do once you're on the ship and possibly go off to other destinations. Those bookings, right that add to the experience, but they also add to your revenue line right in your profit line.

Yeah, that's exactly right. One. I think that we we've gotten a lot better, whether it's you know, through AI or other other disruptive tech to really take friction out of the experience of shopping with us, whether that's on the ticket side, whether that's also on the on board side. And what we're doing is we're able to enhance the experience so they can do all the different things that they want to do. And in reality, while it's still very frustrating to me, while we're increasing share of wallet, we're still a very significant discounts to land based vacation. And so for us, like we focus a little bit less on what's happening with our cruise competitors, we're trying to take a larger share of the two trillion dollar marketplace and travel leisure, and for us, having the experiences that our guests want to do and also being able to make it easier for them to shop with us is winning for us.

Yeah, that's exactly right. One. I think that we we've gotten a lot better, whether it's you know, through AI or other other disruptive tech to really take friction out of the experience of shopping with us, whether that's on the ticket side, whether that's also on the on board side. And what we're doing is we're able to enhance the experience so they can do all the different things that they want to do. And in reality, while it's still very frustrating to me, while we're increasing share of wallet, we're still a very significant discounts to land based vacation. And so for us, like we focus a little bit less on what's happening with our cruise competitors, we're trying to take a larger share of the two trillion dollar marketplace and travel leisure, and for us, having the experiences that our guests want to do and also being able to make it easier for them to shop with us is winning for us.

The pace of bookings this year relative to last year, what does that tell you about demand where we're you know, when we're a little over a month past what is referred to in the industry as wave season.

The pace of bookings this year relative to last year, what does that tell you about demand where we're you know, when we're a little over a month past what is referred to in the industry as wave season.

Yeah, so you know, the past couple of years. You know, wave has been elevated not just for us, but also for the entire industry, and we're seeing we're continue to see those waters rise here on the on the Wave season. So we're seeing record booking weeks, We're seeing elevated pricing, and we're seeing a consumer that is not only willing to pay a little bit more money for their vacation experience, but they're also looking to book further out. So the booking window is continuing to extend, and they're also doing more and more pre cruise booking activities for the activities that happen on the ship and off the ship to make sure they get the vacation experience that them and their family and friends want to have.

Yeah, so you know, the past couple of years. You know, wave has been elevated not just for us, but also for the entire industry, and we're seeing we're continue to see those waters rise here on the on the Wave season. So we're seeing record booking weeks, We're seeing elevated pricing, and we're seeing a consumer that is not only willing to pay a little bit more money for their vacation experience, but they're also looking to book further out. So the booking window is continuing to extend, and they're also doing more and more pre cruise booking activities for the activities that happen on the ship and off the ship to make sure they get the vacation experience that them and their family and friends want to have.

Are you surprised by it? You've been doing this a while, Like, are you surprised by the pace of demand?

Are you surprised by it? You've been doing this a while, Like, are you surprised by the pace of demand?

Well, I have been doing this. I mean I've been in the sea for a little over three years, and of course I was the CFO before that, so I've been in the industry a while. Certainly you're seeing an elevated demand for experiences. So clearly, coming out of COVID you've seen a few different changes in behavior one of which is very comfortable booking and interacting through technology, so we're able to take friction out of that experience. But you're also seeing just a trade by a lot less stuff. We want to buy experiences. We really appreciate the time with our friends and family, and we want to make sure that time that we have is one that is not only exceptional, but it's also with somebody who we trust will deliver that for us. And I think we have that trust. We value that trust with our customers each and every day.

Well, I have been doing this. I mean I've been in the sea for a little over three years, and of course I was the CFO before that, so I've been in the industry a while. Certainly you're seeing an elevated demand for experiences. So clearly, coming out of COVID you've seen a few different changes in behavior one of which is very comfortable booking and interacting through technology, so we're able to take friction out of that experience. But you're also seeing just a trade by a lot less stuff. We want to buy experiences. We really appreciate the time with our friends and family, and we want to make sure that time that we have is one that is not only exceptional, but it's also with somebody who we trust will deliver that for us. And I think we have that trust. We value that trust with our customers each and every day.

All Right, we want to talk a bit more about the business. But you know, Jason, we've been asking everybody who comes on a CEO or anybody who runs an institution, a company, an organization, the dynamics and the backdrop anything that could be impacted by policies out of the Trump administration, anything coming out of government. And I think about you know, we've talked about various policies that could lead to inflation, tariffs, you know, on possible goods that could increase costs, immigration, the impact on the labor force. So I'm just curious. You guys are floating cities, your massive ships, so you you know, the dynamics of kind of the economy of the UCC want to me certainly impact you. So I'm just curious anything in particular that could come out of d see that you're watching very closely.

All Right, we want to talk a bit more about the business. But you know, Jason, we've been asking everybody who comes on a CEO or anybody who runs an institution, a company, an organization, the dynamics and the backdrop anything that could be impacted by policies out of the Trump administration, anything coming out of government. And I think about you know, we've talked about various policies that could lead to inflation, tariffs, you know, on possible goods that could increase costs, immigration, the impact on the labor force. So I'm just curious. You guys are floating cities, your massive ships, so you you know, the dynamics of kind of the economy of the UCC want to me certainly impact you. So I'm just curious anything in particular that could come out of d see that you're watching very closely.

Well, look, I think we're we as we always have. We're gonna work very closely with the administration. But I think I think you know, what we're looking for is a healthy and happy consumer. And I think as long as the consumer has confidence and their spending and and and of course they seek great vacation experiences, which we think they're going to do, I think we feel very bullish about the future spending behavior of our customers. The other point that I would just add, which I think also brings us great comfort on whether if if costs do rise in some form or fashion or there is inflation, is that point I made earlier that there is a significant gap to land based vacation. There's a lot of value for the consumer and in our different vacation products, and that's a good hedge for us if there is any any any type of change in the winds.

Well, look, I think we're we as we always have. We're gonna work very closely with the administration. But I think I think you know, what we're looking for is a healthy and happy consumer. And I think as long as the consumer has confidence and their spending and and and of course they seek great vacation experiences, which we think they're going to do, I think we feel very bullish about the future spending behavior of our customers. The other point that I would just add, which I think also brings us great comfort on whether if if costs do rise in some form or fashion or there is inflation, is that point I made earlier that there is a significant gap to land based vacation. There's a lot of value for the consumer and in our different vacation products, and that's a good hedge for us if there is any any any type of change in the winds.

How are you guys doing it? Can only costs right now, specifically when it comes to labor, are you are you getting all the employees you need and where are you getting them from?

How are you guys doing it? Can only costs right now, specifically when it comes to labor, are you are you getting all the employees you need and where are you getting them from?

Yeah, well, most of our our employee base our international crew. So we're not really that impacted by rises on the wage side, you know, shore side certainly like every other company, you know, there's there's inflationary pressures that can impact your wages. For our shore side and our corporate offices and so forth, we actually are Our cost guide for this year was for us to be flat to up one percent, and we've been able to do that by really managing our supply chain, leveraging the scale as our business grows, and having a team that wakes up every day and says, how do we do it better? And and doing all that and making sure we're enhancing the guest experience and we're not cutting the guest experience because we feel that it's it's you know, it's important for us to live up to our marketing and our reputation each and every day.

Yeah, well, most of our our employee base our international crew. So we're not really that impacted by rises on the wage side, you know, shore side certainly like every other company, you know, there's there's inflationary pressures that can impact your wages. For our shore side and our corporate offices and so forth, we actually are Our cost guide for this year was for us to be flat to up one percent, and we've been able to do that by really managing our supply chain, leveraging the scale as our business grows, and having a team that wakes up every day and says, how do we do it better? And and doing all that and making sure we're enhancing the guest experience and we're not cutting the guest experience because we feel that it's it's you know, it's important for us to live up to our marketing and our reputation each and every day.

Jason, Could any of that supply chain be impacted by tariffs?

Jason, Could any of that supply chain be impacted by tariffs?

I don't think so, you know, because we source a lot of the things that we source are are are really from here here in the US. We're not really expecting any any any tariff impact but you know, we're watching it just like we're watching other things on more more in terms of how it would impact our customer le's so, how it's going to impact our cost space?

I don't think so, you know, because we source a lot of the things that we source are are are really from here here in the US. We're not really expecting any any any tariff impact but you know, we're watching it just like we're watching other things on more more in terms of how it would impact our customer le's so, how it's going to impact our cost space?

What about when it does come to that international labor pool? Are there concerns about a crackdown on immigration affecting the way that employees on your ships are able to be on your ships when they're docked in the US. How do you handle that?

What about when it does come to that international labor pool? Are there concerns about a crackdown on immigration affecting the way that employees on your ships are able to be on your ships when they're docked in the US. How do you handle that?

Yeah, Well, it's obviously something that we're that we're always looking into, but I don't think that's a very high risk. And we know we're an international maritime organization. Our crew are international maritime. They're really focused on being on the ships. So you know, obviously we watch it and we try to manage it, but we don't see that as a high risk in terms of any policies that can come forward there.

Yeah, Well, it's obviously something that we're that we're always looking into, but I don't think that's a very high risk. And we know we're an international maritime organization. Our crew are international maritime. They're really focused on being on the ships. So you know, obviously we watch it and we try to manage it, but we don't see that as a high risk in terms of any policies that can come forward there.

Hey, listen, we want to talk about you guys getting into the river cruise market before we do so. So you talked though a lot about destinations and experiences for those who get on ships. You guys have had great success with Cococae private island destination that's in the Bahamas specifically. How could perfect day Mexico, which is another such destination kind of drive some of that on board spending that you were talking about a little bit earlier and ticket prices when it opens in twenty twenty seven.

Hey, listen, we want to talk about you guys getting into the river cruise market before we do so. So you talked though a lot about destinations and experiences for those who get on ships. You guys have had great success with Cococae private island destination that's in the Bahamas specifically. How could perfect day Mexico, which is another such destination kind of drive some of that on board spending that you were talking about a little bit earlier and ticket prices when it opens in twenty twenty seven.

Yeah, So I would say a few things about the destination experience. So you take as you gave an example of Perfect Day of Coco Ka, which by the way, is the highest rated, has the highest and promoter score of any other destination we go to in the world, because we do an exceptional job of delivering thrill and delivering chill, but we're not able to deliver that experience to all guests, all guests in the Caribbean, and so Perfect Day Mexico will allow us to not only ensure that every especially on our Royal brand, as at least one perfect day when they're in the Caribbean, but it's also going to expand the catchment area of areas like tech Exists and West of the Mississippi, which will have an easier way to get to places like Galveston where they can go in and have a perfect day. We're also adding oryal beach clubs, which will also expand the experience in places like Nasa Bahamas, and also and cause them out. So what we're trying to do is again continue to enhance the experience offering. We see ourselves as an experience organization with really a vision of you know, what we've always been done great is delivering delivering the best vacations in the world, and we want to be able to deliver a lifetime of those vacations over somebody's life.

Yeah, So I would say a few things about the destination experience. So you take as you gave an example of Perfect Day of Coco Ka, which by the way, is the highest rated, has the highest and promoter score of any other destination we go to in the world, because we do an exceptional job of delivering thrill and delivering chill, but we're not able to deliver that experience to all guests, all guests in the Caribbean, and so Perfect Day Mexico will allow us to not only ensure that every especially on our Royal brand, as at least one perfect day when they're in the Caribbean, but it's also going to expand the catchment area of areas like tech Exists and West of the Mississippi, which will have an easier way to get to places like Galveston where they can go in and have a perfect day. We're also adding oryal beach clubs, which will also expand the experience in places like Nasa Bahamas, and also and cause them out. So what we're trying to do is again continue to enhance the experience offering. We see ourselves as an experience organization with really a vision of you know, what we've always been done great is delivering delivering the best vacations in the world, and we want to be able to deliver a lifetime of those vacations over somebody's life.

And I just want to make sure I heard correctly. But in terms of Perfect Day Mexico specifically driving on board spending and ticket ticket prices when it opened, can you give us any kind of color on that or specificity.

And I just want to make sure I heard correctly. But in terms of Perfect Day Mexico specifically driving on board spending and ticket ticket prices when it opened, can you give us any kind of color on that or specificity.

Absolutely, you know. I think one of the surprises when we when we open Perfect Day at Coco Ka is not only do we get high demand to go to the island and people were willing to pay for things like water park to overwater cabanas, but we also saw ships that touch Perfect Day of Mexico got elevated pricing, and so we expect that's going to be the same thing here is when you deliver the destination and the experience mark, guests are willing to pay for that, and that's what we expect to occur in Mexico. It's also what we expect to occur with our Royal beach clubs as well as as we'll you know, we'll deliver an experience that's far superior to what is currently being offered in those in those different destinations.

Absolutely, you know. I think one of the surprises when we when we open Perfect Day at Coco Ka is not only do we get high demand to go to the island and people were willing to pay for things like water park to overwater cabanas, but we also saw ships that touch Perfect Day of Mexico got elevated pricing, and so we expect that's going to be the same thing here is when you deliver the destination and the experience mark, guests are willing to pay for that, and that's what we expect to occur in Mexico. It's also what we expect to occur with our Royal beach clubs as well as as we'll you know, we'll deliver an experience that's far superior to what is currently being offered in those in those different destinations.

I'm just gonna say I'd like some thrill and chill right now, because I'm tired of cold New York.

I'm just gonna say I'd like some thrill and chill right now, because I'm tired of cold New York.

I'm just going to put that out there, all right, sign up, Carol. Speaking of.

I'm just going to put that out there, all right, sign up, Carol. Speaking of.

Available available, you know, I would say it's available and I'm happy. I'm happy to help you book a cruise.

Available available, you know, I would say it's available and I'm happy. I'm happy to help you book a cruise.

Well, let's let's talk about what's going on in the river cruise market. I mean, my in laws are back from a river cruise this fall, my sister's back from river cruise, both of those with different companies in Europe. Now, you guys are getting in through the celebrity business. Why now?

Well, let's let's talk about what's going on in the river cruise market. I mean, my in laws are back from a river cruise this fall, my sister's back from river cruise, both of those with different companies in Europe. Now, you guys are getting in through the celebrity business. Why now?

Yeah? Well why now is? You know we've been seeing for some time, you know, a growing trend with our guests that they're looking for addition vacations, not a substitute for going on a cruise, but additional vacations. And when we look at what are those additional vacations that they're going on, one of the things that we've seen Arizon is on the river side. And so as we again seek to deliver a lifetime of vacations and we want to leverage, you know, all the having a single loyalty program, great reciprocity across our different brands. We're enhancing the flywheel and we're investing in that flywheel so that we can get more reps out of our guests. And so we had to listen to what our guests are looking to do, and we have to be focused on how do we keep our customer in our ecosystem. And one of the ways of doing that is expanding the offering. And we think River is you know, it's it's similar, it's sowing, not exactly the same as an ocean cruise, and we think we can elevate that vacation experience significantly, not just on the ship in itself, but also on land.

Yeah? Well why now is? You know we've been seeing for some time, you know, a growing trend with our guests that they're looking for addition vacations, not a substitute for going on a cruise, but additional vacations. And when we look at what are those additional vacations that they're going on, one of the things that we've seen Arizon is on the river side. And so as we again seek to deliver a lifetime of vacations and we want to leverage, you know, all the having a single loyalty program, great reciprocity across our different brands. We're enhancing the flywheel and we're investing in that flywheel so that we can get more reps out of our guests. And so we had to listen to what our guests are looking to do, and we have to be focused on how do we keep our customer in our ecosystem. And one of the ways of doing that is expanding the offering. And we think River is you know, it's it's similar, it's sowing, not exactly the same as an ocean cruise, and we think we can elevate that vacation experience significantly, not just on the ship in itself, but also on land.

That was Jason Liberty, President and CEO of Royal Caribbean Group.

That was Jason Liberty, President and CEO of Royal Caribbean Group.

Still ahead on Bloomberg Business Week, how to add as much as one tree dollars to the global economy by twenty forty.

Still ahead on Bloomberg Business Week, how to add as much as one tree dollars to the global economy by twenty forty.

This is Bloomberg.

This is Bloomberg.

This is the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Applecarplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty, Carol.

This is the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Applecarplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty, Carol.

When we talk about the gender gap, we're often talking about gaps in education, or political participation or salary, right, but there's also a pronounced gender gap when it comes to healthcare. I confess I had no idea about this until I started researching our next guest.

When we talk about the gender gap, we're often talking about gaps in education, or political participation or salary, right, but there's also a pronounced gender gap when it comes to healthcare. I confess I had no idea about this until I started researching our next guest.

I mean, share these numbers.

I mean, share these numbers.

Okay, big, Okay. Well, Mackenzie says that closing this gap could add as much as a trillion dollars to the economy by twenty forty, but perhaps more importantly, it could add five hundred healthy days to a woman's life over her lifetime.

Okay, big, Okay. Well, Mackenzie says that closing this gap could add as much as a trillion dollars to the economy by twenty forty, but perhaps more importantly, it could add five hundred healthy days to a woman's life over her lifetime.

All right, that seems like a really good thing. Carole Lee is working to close that gap. She's founder and chief executive officer of WHAM, which stands for Women's Health Access Matters. It's a nonprofit that encourages research and investment in women's health, as well as works to, in the organization's words, quote, eliminate the inequities and bias in research and enterprise. She joins us right now from Greenwich, Connecticut. Caroly, it's great to have you here with us. Just paint the picture. I have heard anecdotally for many women, young, older, where they do walk in to a doctor and say something and they're very much dismissed. But tell us about this poor healthcare or poorer healthcare that women are dealing with versus men.

All right, that seems like a really good thing. Carole Lee is working to close that gap. She's founder and chief executive officer of WHAM, which stands for Women's Health Access Matters. It's a nonprofit that encourages research and investment in women's health, as well as works to, in the organization's words, quote, eliminate the inequities and bias in research and enterprise. She joins us right now from Greenwich, Connecticut. Caroly, it's great to have you here with us. Just paint the picture. I have heard anecdotally for many women, young, older, where they do walk in to a doctor and say something and they're very much dismissed. But tell us about this poor healthcare or poorer healthcare that women are dealing with versus men.

Sure, well, first of all, thank you, delighted to be with you. So let's just frame the picture a little bit. Women are fifty one percent of the population, same about in the workforce. They make eighty five percent of the spending decisions in eighty percent of the health care decisions. Okay, so first of all, let's start with it. We're not a niche market. And then you have to really look at, you know, where we're lacking and if our first reports which came out four years ago that we did with the RAND Corporation showed how little money is invested in women's health research. In fact, NIH invests less than four percent, for example, in heart disease, when it's the number one killer of heart disease. So there are tremendous disparities between the incidents and the burden of disease and the amount of money is invested, whether in research or in business.

Sure, well, first of all, thank you, delighted to be with you. So let's just frame the picture a little bit. Women are fifty one percent of the population, same about in the workforce. They make eighty five percent of the spending decisions in eighty percent of the health care decisions. Okay, so first of all, let's start with it. We're not a niche market. And then you have to really look at, you know, where we're lacking and if our first reports which came out four years ago that we did with the RAND Corporation showed how little money is invested in women's health research. In fact, NIH invests less than four percent, for example, in heart disease, when it's the number one killer of heart disease. So there are tremendous disparities between the incidents and the burden of disease and the amount of money is invested, whether in research or in business.

Can I ask you why that happens when it comes to research in women's health. Why does that lag?

Can I ask you why that happens when it comes to research in women's health. Why does that lag?

There's a lot of answers to that.

There's a lot of answers to that.

Is it just biasness? Is it men in charge making the decision about where the men is, where the money is spent? What is it?

Is it just biasness? Is it men in charge making the decision about where the men is, where the money is spent? What is it?

Yeah? I think for many years, unfortunately there was bias intended and unintended, and it just grew into the system. And in many situations, women are not at the table and we as frequently or is in the kinds of position and says they should be. And we know that these kinds of inequities don't create or generate the same kind of results when you have sex differences in the room and you need to have men and women in the room and making these decisions.

Yeah? I think for many years, unfortunately there was bias intended and unintended, and it just grew into the system. And in many situations, women are not at the table and we as frequently or is in the kinds of position and says they should be. And we know that these kinds of inequities don't create or generate the same kind of results when you have sex differences in the room and you need to have men and women in the room and making these decisions.

So let's talk a little bit about how to solve this and what you are doing over at WHAM, who you're partnering with, who's getting involved, How is this a problem that gets solved?

So let's talk a little bit about how to solve this and what you are doing over at WHAM, who you're partnering with, who's getting involved, How is this a problem that gets solved?

So it's not going to be easy to solve, but the first thing is to create greater awareness. So for example, I just spoke at several different in several different instances in delivering the findings from our new WHAM report out at the JP Morgan Health Conference, and that's important for a lot of reasons. One is the report itself, which is available online obviously at our website whamnow dot org. It really paints the picture of what every investor should know. And part of what we're trying to do now is change the investment community. Our first reports did show how to change the research community and and investment by showing that in for disease areas and I mentioned heart disease is one. In for disease areas that would affect a woman in her lifetime, a three hundred and fifty million dollar investment, which is what NIH had allocated to those for disease areas, would have yielded a return, if just increased by a small percent, would have yielded an economic return of fourteen into the economy.

So it's not going to be easy to solve, but the first thing is to create greater awareness. So for example, I just spoke at several different in several different instances in delivering the findings from our new WHAM report out at the JP Morgan Health Conference, and that's important for a lot of reasons. One is the report itself, which is available online obviously at our website whamnow dot org. It really paints the picture of what every investor should know. And part of what we're trying to do now is change the investment community. Our first reports did show how to change the research community and and investment by showing that in for disease areas and I mentioned heart disease is one. In for disease areas that would affect a woman in her lifetime, a three hundred and fifty million dollar investment, which is what NIH had allocated to those for disease areas, would have yielded a return, if just increased by a small percent, would have yielded an economic return of fourteen into the economy.

Is that economic return? You know, we're into economic statistics and so and so for that A you're just saying that healthier women are much more productive in terms of economic output.

Is that economic return? You know, we're into economic statistics and so and so for that A you're just saying that healthier women are much more productive in terms of economic output.

Is that?

Is that?

Is it as simplistic as that?

Is it as simplistic as that?

Okay, that's part of it, and it's also obviously taking care of their families. All the different costs that are involved in either treating a disease and or treating being out of work because of inadequate care or because of diseases that make you not be able to stay in the office, such as menopause. It's not even a disease, it's a condition, but the numbers of hours that are lost both to the women in terms of her earnings and to the company are extensive. So I think one of the first things that we have to realize is that one of the things we need to do is not just think of women's health as reproductive health. And so what we've done is try to redefine women's health to be exclusively, disproportionately, or differently. And that is an NIH definition, by the way, because exclusively means things like, let's say, more gynocological issues like menopause are varying. Cancer disproportionately is autoimmune diseases where women are eighty percent of the people have autoimmune How about Alzheimer's where we're two thirds of the population and twice is likely to have Alzheimer's. And guess what we don't have the research to show us why. So if we don't have the research, then you can't even begin.

Okay, that's part of it, and it's also obviously taking care of their families. All the different costs that are involved in either treating a disease and or treating being out of work because of inadequate care or because of diseases that make you not be able to stay in the office, such as menopause. It's not even a disease, it's a condition, but the numbers of hours that are lost both to the women in terms of her earnings and to the company are extensive. So I think one of the first things that we have to realize is that one of the things we need to do is not just think of women's health as reproductive health. And so what we've done is try to redefine women's health to be exclusively, disproportionately, or differently. And that is an NIH definition, by the way, because exclusively means things like, let's say, more gynocological issues like menopause are varying. Cancer disproportionately is autoimmune diseases where women are eighty percent of the people have autoimmune How about Alzheimer's where we're two thirds of the population and twice is likely to have Alzheimer's. And guess what we don't have the research to show us why. So if we don't have the research, then you can't even begin.

Because we live longer, don't we still live longer?

Because we live longer, don't we still live longer?

Women?

Women?

No?

No?

No, no, Why is my life insurance more expensive than my wife's? They told me he sold me my wife's cheaper because she's lived longer.

No, no, Why is my life insurance more expensive than my wife's? They told me he sold me my wife's cheaper because she's lived longer.

Yeah, that's not I think that's not true. But it's a great question. I'm not I'm not qualified to answer that one, but all good questions. I mean, women live on average five to six years longer and in poor health. We know that, and with the inadequate finances.

Yeah, that's not I think that's not true. But it's a great question. I'm not I'm not qualified to answer that one, but all good questions. I mean, women live on average five to six years longer and in poor health. We know that, and with the inadequate finances.

So we do live. We do live longer, but in poor health is what you're saying.

So we do live. We do live longer, but in poor health is what you're saying.

Correct, that's exactly right. Okay, close us more and we don't have the money.

Correct, that's exactly right. Okay, close us more and we don't have the money.

There's a really interesting Oh sorry, go ahead.

There's a really interesting Oh sorry, go ahead.

Well I'll just finish the exclusively disproportionately and differently. The two areas and the two conditions that affect women differently are cardiovascular disease and lung cancer. For example, where cardiovascular disease, to your point, Carol, women are go to the emergency room with chest pain and all kinds of issues, indigestion, shoulder pain, and in many instances, they're given an anti depressant, they're told that they're having anxiety, and they're sent home and they dropped out of a heart attack. Why is that?

Well I'll just finish the exclusively disproportionately and differently. The two areas and the two conditions that affect women differently are cardiovascular disease and lung cancer. For example, where cardiovascular disease, to your point, Carol, women are go to the emergency room with chest pain and all kinds of issues, indigestion, shoulder pain, and in many instances, they're given an anti depressant, they're told that they're having anxiety, and they're sent home and they dropped out of a heart attack. Why is that?

I don't know.

I don't know.

Why is that? Yeah? I mean, well, because because because first of all, because this is women experience some diseases such as cardiovasculogies differently, not all emergency rooms and not all medical practices or that familiar with these differences. And often if they are, they'll misdiagnose it, which is very unfortunate. But but some of the symptoms are you know, they could be anxiety, but women are not often given the same tests as quickly as a man is.

Why is that? Yeah? I mean, well, because because because first of all, because this is women experience some diseases such as cardiovasculogies differently, not all emergency rooms and not all medical practices or that familiar with these differences. And often if they are, they'll misdiagnose it, which is very unfortunate. But but some of the symptoms are you know, they could be anxiety, but women are not often given the same tests as quickly as a man is.

All right, so listen those that are heading up medical institutions hospitals. You have a quote in the in the study from Michael Dowling, Presidency of Northwell Health Health. He has been on our air several times. The quote is women's health needs innovation and creativity. It needs everybody to look at it in a new way. I have heard from doctors that such a big part of their job is also thinking about money and kind of getting donors to donate money that goes into R and D and so on and so forth. So how do we you know, I'm thinking about these of institutions. If they are aware of this, why aren't we making sure that R and D money gets allocated to more women's health issues.

All right, so listen those that are heading up medical institutions hospitals. You have a quote in the in the study from Michael Dowling, Presidency of Northwell Health Health. He has been on our air several times. The quote is women's health needs innovation and creativity. It needs everybody to look at it in a new way. I have heard from doctors that such a big part of their job is also thinking about money and kind of getting donors to donate money that goes into R and D and so on and so forth. So how do we you know, I'm thinking about these of institutions. If they are aware of this, why aren't we making sure that R and D money gets allocated to more women's health issues.

Well, it is happening slowly, but the problem is this word slowly. In other words, there is more money flowing, and over the past five years has been a significant amount of money. And I think between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty three, the women's health gap grew by three hundred percent. So the amount of research that is being done is growing, it's just not growing at a fast enough rate, and it's not significant enough. And that's a problem, There's no question about it. And I think part of it is the lack of understanding. So, for example, even women's health is such a high growth opportunity. You are focused on economics and opportunity. Five percent of the conditions that impact a woman in her life are exclusive to women, the other ninety five percent or not. So I think about that.

Well, it is happening slowly, but the problem is this word slowly. In other words, there is more money flowing, and over the past five years has been a significant amount of money. And I think between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty three, the women's health gap grew by three hundred percent. So the amount of research that is being done is growing, it's just not growing at a fast enough rate, and it's not significant enough. And that's a problem, There's no question about it. And I think part of it is the lack of understanding. So, for example, even women's health is such a high growth opportunity. You are focused on economics and opportunity. Five percent of the conditions that impact a woman in her life are exclusive to women, the other ninety five percent or not. So I think about that.

You're saying, like, in terms of investment dollarsmpanies that are addressing some of these issues, why is it maybe more going into it? Is that kind of the question.

You're saying, like, in terms of investment dollarsmpanies that are addressing some of these issues, why is it maybe more going into it? Is that kind of the question.

Ninety five percent of the market is still on tap.

Ninety five percent of the market is still on tap.

Leave me a mass some opportunity because you know, you have some of the companies that are listed in your report really really interesting companies that we've had on our air. Maven and kind Body are a couple of those companies that cater to women exclusively, that have raised money in the past few years from private investors. Other companies including Aura. We've spoken to that CEO in the past couple of months. You argue that they treat women differently. Will we see more capital flow to startups because you think it is such an untapped opportunity.

Leave me a mass some opportunity because you know, you have some of the companies that are listed in your report really really interesting companies that we've had on our air. Maven and kind Body are a couple of those companies that cater to women exclusively, that have raised money in the past few years from private investors. Other companies including Aura. We've spoken to that CEO in the past couple of months. You argue that they treat women differently. Will we see more capital flow to startups because you think it is such an untapped opportunity.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, this is the point of the report is to lay out the groundwork that says this is a market that's ready for growth. So investments in women's health grew by about three hundred percent, as I said, between twenty eighteen and twenty and twenty three. So that's a huge opportunity when you think that only two percent of healthcare VC funding was allocated to women's health, really two percent, one percent of the population. Ten percent. Yeah, it doesn't work.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, this is the point of the report is to lay out the groundwork that says this is a market that's ready for growth. So investments in women's health grew by about three hundred percent, as I said, between twenty eighteen and twenty and twenty three. So that's a huge opportunity when you think that only two percent of healthcare VC funding was allocated to women's health, really two percent, one percent of the population. Ten percent. Yeah, it doesn't work.

It's amazing and I feel like we have had this conversation a few times over the last couple of years, So it's disturbing this in depth, extensive research that you've done to find that we still have a long way to go.

It's amazing and I feel like we have had this conversation a few times over the last couple of years, So it's disturbing this in depth, extensive research that you've done to find that we still have a long way to go.

Our thanks to Caro Lee Lee, founder in the CEO of WHAM. It stands for Women's Health Access Matters.

Our thanks to Caro Lee Lee, founder in the CEO of WHAM. It stands for Women's Health Access Matters.

All right, And you can catch the full interview if you missed any of it on our podcast feed. Hey, you know what's interesting, uh, women's health? Health care in general, I feel like comes up a lot in our conversations with a lot of investment experts. We know some of the reasons, the long term catalysts, changing demographics, aging demographics, you know, these are things that play into why healthcare could be a good investment play. And what's interesting on that Our own Susanne Wooey of Bloomberg News, she covers wealth and investing. She had a story out this past week about how to invest ten thousand dollars right now, and the health and healthcare area came up.