Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Karl Messer and Tim Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio.

Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Karl Messer and Tim Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio.

Well.

Well.

Next guest has spent more than four thousand hours in space. She's been a part of three NASA missions, including a six month mission to the International Space Station that launched a day after her fiftieth birthday. She's got a new book out. It's called Sharing Space. It breaks down the insights that she found essential to her success, including knowing how to adapt when a roll down to the size of a space suit does not have women in mind. Sharing Space, an Astronaut's Guide to Mission Wonder and Making Change, is out today. We've got with us Katherine Coleman joining us this afternoon. Catherine, Katie, how are you?

Next guest has spent more than four thousand hours in space. She's been a part of three NASA missions, including a six month mission to the International Space Station that launched a day after her fiftieth birthday. She's got a new book out. It's called Sharing Space. It breaks down the insights that she found essential to her success, including knowing how to adapt when a roll down to the size of a space suit does not have women in mind. Sharing Space, an Astronaut's Guide to Mission Wonder and Making Change, is out today. We've got with us Katherine Coleman joining us this afternoon. Catherine, Katie, how are you?

I am great, Thank you and thanks for the music. That was awesome.

I am great, Thank you and thanks for the music. That was awesome.

Hey all. Credit to Paul Brannan, our producer. He is the music whiz here. Congratulations on the book. I'm wondering when you write a book like this, if you're thinking your entire career as it's happening, that one day you're going to put it in a book. Is that how it went for you?

Hey all. Credit to Paul Brannan, our producer. He is the music whiz here. Congratulations on the book. I'm wondering when you write a book like this, if you're thinking your entire career as it's happening, that one day you're going to put it in a book. Is that how it went for you?

No, and if it did, I would have definitely taken better notes, right, it would have been like written diaries and journals. And actually it's something I really encouraged the other folks affect to an author, Andy Chakin, he begged me, he goes, Katie, you know we're on that station. Just talk into your iPhone, Okay, don't have one of those. Talk into something, you know, just little notes, anything that'll remind you of everything you've been doing, because I think, you know, we all noticed so much, but I didn't. Actually I didn't expect to be writing a book. But in a way, as I retired a few years ago and you kind of look back and things haven't changed enough that I decided a book was necessary.

No, and if it did, I would have definitely taken better notes, right, it would have been like written diaries and journals. And actually it's something I really encouraged the other folks affect to an author, Andy Chakin, he begged me, he goes, Katie, you know we're on that station. Just talk into your iPhone, Okay, don't have one of those. Talk into something, you know, just little notes, anything that'll remind you of everything you've been doing, because I think, you know, we all noticed so much, but I didn't. Actually I didn't expect to be writing a book. But in a way, as I retired a few years ago and you kind of look back and things haven't changed enough that I decided a book was necessary.

And so I mean, walk us through your process then, given that you didn't take notes at the time, you were probably busy doing space things, as I would imagine, I mean, what did this process look like? I would imagine, you know, you went back to your former astronauts people you shared the air with. I mean, walk us through that a little bit, the TikTok of how you actually did it.

And so I mean, walk us through your process then, given that you didn't take notes at the time, you were probably busy doing space things, as I would imagine, I mean, what did this process look like? I would imagine, you know, you went back to your former astronauts people you shared the air with. I mean, walk us through that a little bit, the TikTok of how you actually did it.

Well. I really didn't want their side of the story. No, I did in some ways you know, by being a retired astronaut, I get to go out and talk a lot, I mean and talk about my experiences and I am somebody that actually kind of processes their life through talking, you know, with others and makes decisions that way. And it's I think what needed to be in the book got, you know, sort of got brought together by going out and doing these talks and looking out into audiences in realizing what was essential. Like I remember one one group of women, they were all like seniors in college being courted at the oh, the very big computer conference. I'm just so embarrassed of it's run out of my head, but mostly for women, and so anyways, basically being their speaker and realizing this was an audience about one hundred young women, all in computer science and engineering and realizing that the I mean, this is them, they are the future, and I have only like twenty minutes to impart to them things I think they really need to know. So the little moments like that, I think really led to the book.

Well. I really didn't want their side of the story. No, I did in some ways you know, by being a retired astronaut, I get to go out and talk a lot, I mean and talk about my experiences and I am somebody that actually kind of processes their life through talking, you know, with others and makes decisions that way. And it's I think what needed to be in the book got, you know, sort of got brought together by going out and doing these talks and looking out into audiences in realizing what was essential. Like I remember one one group of women, they were all like seniors in college being courted at the oh, the very big computer conference. I'm just so embarrassed of it's run out of my head, but mostly for women, and so anyways, basically being their speaker and realizing this was an audience about one hundred young women, all in computer science and engineering and realizing that the I mean, this is them, they are the future, and I have only like twenty minutes to impart to them things I think they really need to know. So the little moments like that, I think really led to the book.

Well, I want to talk a little bit about your career because it's been it's been so interesting. I mean, a PhD from UMass Amherst. You went to mit Ratzi was sort of your introduction into service. It sounds like, can you start at like, give us the abridged version of how you found yourself, how you were able to become an astronaut. I mean, this is like every kid's dream, and I think a lot of adults dreams too, and not.

Well, I want to talk a little bit about your career because it's been it's been so interesting. I mean, a PhD from UMass Amherst. You went to mit Ratzi was sort of your introduction into service. It sounds like, can you start at like, give us the abridged version of how you found yourself, how you were able to become an astronaut. I mean, this is like every kid's dream, and I think a lot of adults dreams too, and not.

As many, I say, young girls as one might think. Even these days in our small town are a person that cuts hair Hanna on the door of her salon. Kids are always drawing astronauts and they're always girls, which is I think very great. Cool.

As many, I say, young girls as one might think. Even these days in our small town are a person that cuts hair Hanna on the door of her salon. Kids are always drawing astronauts and they're always girls, which is I think very great. Cool.

We're going to work on We're going to work on Katie's connection, which is ironic because I think she at one point in her career played an instrument from space in National Public Radio. Yeah, it's unfortunately imagine there was a connection.

We're going to work on We're going to work on Katie's connection, which is ironic because I think she at one point in her career played an instrument from space in National Public Radio. Yeah, it's unfortunately imagine there was a connection.

We don't have that technology on when that happened.

We don't have that technology on when that happened.

Yeah, but we're going to get back to Katie Coleman. Her new book is an Astronaut's Guide to Mission Wonder and Making Change. It's called Sharing Space. The book is out today. Katie, Yeah, did you want to be an astronaut when you were growing up?

Yeah, but we're going to get back to Katie Coleman. Her new book is an Astronaut's Guide to Mission Wonder and Making Change. It's called Sharing Space. The book is out today. Katie, Yeah, did you want to be an astronaut when you were growing up?

No?

No?

Never. I fear the ocean, I fear big wide spaces and that includes space. But I do have a bunch of questions about just being an astronaut. We hear so much about I feel like the training and it's just one of the things that I would love more insight, and how do you physically prepare to be in space? And then once you're in space. I don't know about you, Tim, I think you were kind of self referencing that you're one of those adults that would like to be an astronaut.

Never. I fear the ocean, I fear big wide spaces and that includes space. But I do have a bunch of questions about just being an astronaut. We hear so much about I feel like the training and it's just one of the things that I would love more insight, and how do you physically prepare to be in space? And then once you're in space. I don't know about you, Tim, I think you were kind of self referencing that you're one of those adults that would like to be an astronaut.

Oh.

Oh.

Yeah, once you're actually space is so cool.

Yeah, once you're actually space is so cool.

Well, once you're actually in space, I mean I feel like I watched those videos on YouTube all the time of what it's just like in the actual show.

Well, once you're actually in space, I mean I feel like I watched those videos on YouTube all the time of what it's just like in the actual show.

Yeah, I mean, I think what's so amazing about where we are when it comes to space exploration is the NASA that Katie Coleman was a part of is so different than the NASA that exists today. And the rise of private enterprise, yeah, has emerged over the last well twenty years or so that has replaced big parts of what NASA does. Look NASA always relied on private companies to help innovate, but the way that it's relying on SpaceX now and potentially on boeing for future missions is certainly something to speak of. The Also, the idea I think too, Katie Greifeld, is that more and more people who are not trained as astronauts by governments are getting an opportunity to go to space.

Yeah, I mean, I think what's so amazing about where we are when it comes to space exploration is the NASA that Katie Coleman was a part of is so different than the NASA that exists today. And the rise of private enterprise, yeah, has emerged over the last well twenty years or so that has replaced big parts of what NASA does. Look NASA always relied on private companies to help innovate, but the way that it's relying on SpaceX now and potentially on boeing for future missions is certainly something to speak of. The Also, the idea I think too, Katie Greifeld, is that more and more people who are not trained as astronauts by governments are getting an opportunity to go to space.

Yeah, private civilians without ulry ones, very very wealthy ones. We could name check a few billionaires there. But I mean, when it comes to that, just do you think about the space race and the urgency and sort of the just the importance of it, It feels like this handover to those private companies like you were mentioning about, I mean, is that the path forward? How do we continue to push out into space if you have agencies such as NASA running into these funding concerns and other things.

Yeah, private civilians without ulry ones, very very wealthy ones. We could name check a few billionaires there. But I mean, when it comes to that, just do you think about the space race and the urgency and sort of the just the importance of it, It feels like this handover to those private companies like you were mentioning about, I mean, is that the path forward? How do we continue to push out into space if you have agencies such as NASA running into these funding concerns and other things.

I think there's also an element to you here of a global cooperation that exists in space that I think is not necessarily going to be there if we for example, the space race between the US and the Soviet Union obviously a big deal when the US put a man on the Moon first, but then you have cooperation with the building of the ISS and the development of the ISS, and then also when we were no longer using the Space Shuttle to bring or bring people to the ISS. We as a country relied on NASA on Russia and they're soy use capsules to bring astronauts home. And that was recent correct, very recent? Yeah, yeah, which is.

I think there's also an element to you here of a global cooperation that exists in space that I think is not necessarily going to be there if we for example, the space race between the US and the Soviet Union obviously a big deal when the US put a man on the Moon first, but then you have cooperation with the building of the ISS and the development of the ISS, and then also when we were no longer using the Space Shuttle to bring or bring people to the ISS. We as a country relied on NASA on Russia and they're soy use capsules to bring astronauts home. And that was recent correct, very recent? Yeah, yeah, which is.

I mean kind of.

I mean kind of.

I mean it's maybe a good sign for humanity that when it comes to matters such as that, there is a degree of cooperation and working together. So there you go.

I mean it's maybe a good sign for humanity that when it comes to matters such as that, there is a degree of cooperation and working together. So there you go.

But there's also the rise of military branches as a result of space, Like Space Force is a new branch of the military.

But there's also the rise of military branches as a result of space, Like Space Force is a new branch of the military.

That's still around.

That's still around.

It's still around.

It's still around.

Yeah, I feel like we haven't talked about it in a while.

Yeah, I feel like we haven't talked about it in a while.

We haven't Space Force.

We haven't Space Force.

Yeah, yeah, But I don't know. I think about Elon Musk all the time. Obviously we're at Bloomberg News and I still spend a lot of time on Twitter, and I just I think about Elon Musk a lot, and I think about his big ambitions. I mean, he wants to go to Mars. He wants to die on Mars, pretty much like he wants to live on Mars. And you think about just I don't know, he's kind of made that his life's mission. He has incredible funds, and you think, I mean, is that what is going to take when you think about again, sort of keeping the momentum and the ambition and vision of space exploration, if it's not the governments, and if I mean, maybe it's the governments if they can, you know, put their military apparatuses up there. But beyond that, when you think about just wanting to develop space, I do think it's an interesting question should that be the arena of billionaires?

Yeah, yeah, But I don't know. I think about Elon Musk all the time. Obviously we're at Bloomberg News and I still spend a lot of time on Twitter, and I just I think about Elon Musk a lot, and I think about his big ambitions. I mean, he wants to go to Mars. He wants to die on Mars, pretty much like he wants to live on Mars. And you think about just I don't know, he's kind of made that his life's mission. He has incredible funds, and you think, I mean, is that what is going to take when you think about again, sort of keeping the momentum and the ambition and vision of space exploration, if it's not the governments, and if I mean, maybe it's the governments if they can, you know, put their military apparatuses up there. But beyond that, when you think about just wanting to develop space, I do think it's an interesting question should that be the arena of billionaires?

Well, let's actually pose that question to Katie Coleman. We only have about a minute with you, Katie. Then we're going to do some news and we're going to come back. Katie and I just covered a lot there. I know you were working on your connection, But what do you make of the rise of private enterprise companies like SpaceX and certainly Boeing to a lesser extent us supplanning a lot of what NASA has historically done.

Well, let's actually pose that question to Katie Coleman. We only have about a minute with you, Katie. Then we're going to do some news and we're going to come back. Katie and I just covered a lot there. I know you were working on your connection, But what do you make of the rise of private enterprise companies like SpaceX and certainly Boeing to a lesser extent us supplanning a lot of what NASA has historically done.

The more the merrier, not to trivialize it, but more people in the game bringing their ideas. There are new ways to do things and doing them in concert. We talk about these companies as if they're alone, but they're often doing things with NASA for NASA, and I think you know each of these we talk about the billionaires. But each of them has a vision and they have resources, and they have, you know, a vision of how to pave the way to space for more people. And each of those visions I find to be valuable. And I like to look more at the substance than at the people there and just to see what they're accomplishing. And I like what each of them are doing. The more people you bring up on orbit, the more people get that view and understand actually the magnitude of what we can do up there, that.

The more the merrier, not to trivialize it, but more people in the game bringing their ideas. There are new ways to do things and doing them in concert. We talk about these companies as if they're alone, but they're often doing things with NASA for NASA, and I think you know each of these we talk about the billionaires. But each of them has a vision and they have resources, and they have, you know, a vision of how to pave the way to space for more people. And each of those visions I find to be valuable. And I like to look more at the substance than at the people there and just to see what they're accomplishing. And I like what each of them are doing. The more people you bring up on orbit, the more people get that view and understand actually the magnitude of what we can do up there, that.

View just seems incredible.

View just seems incredible.

Yeah. Absolutely, I like that that thought that it's almost like this gateway into igniting more people's ambition. The more people that can see that, the more people that will probably want to go up.

Yeah. Absolutely, I like that that thought that it's almost like this gateway into igniting more people's ambition. The more people that can see that, the more people that will probably want to go up.

Hey, we're speaking right now with astronaut. Yeah, we know, we have to let's do some news Katie, and then we're going to come back and do more with you. That's Katie Coleman. She's got a new book out. It's called Sharing Space, An Astronauts Guide to Mission Wonder and Making Change More with Katie Coleman in just a few minutes. I want to get right back to Catherine Coleman. Her new book is out. It's called Sharing Space. An astronaut's guide to Mission wonder and Making Change if you're just now joining us. Katie Coleman spent more than four thousand hours in space three NASA missions, a six month mission to the ISS, launching a day after her fiftieth birthday. Katie, I want to get right back to just the experience of being in space, because not that many people have actually gotten to do it. I mean, we're talking fewer than a thousand people. What was it like?

Hey, we're speaking right now with astronaut. Yeah, we know, we have to let's do some news Katie, and then we're going to come back and do more with you. That's Katie Coleman. She's got a new book out. It's called Sharing Space, An Astronauts Guide to Mission Wonder and Making Change More with Katie Coleman in just a few minutes. I want to get right back to Catherine Coleman. Her new book is out. It's called Sharing Space. An astronaut's guide to Mission wonder and Making Change if you're just now joining us. Katie Coleman spent more than four thousand hours in space three NASA missions, a six month mission to the ISS, launching a day after her fiftieth birthday. Katie, I want to get right back to just the experience of being in space, because not that many people have actually gotten to do it. I mean, we're talking fewer than a thousand people. What was it like?

Thing? And it's one of the two main reasons that I wrote the book was that you're up there, and it's not just about the floating. You know, you see my hair be big and we're floating around. It's about the fact that you fly from place to place. It's the only way to get around, and it kind of reminds you that you're in a place that almost nobody else is in. All the rules are different, which is extremely important for science and all the stuff we can learn up there. And at the same time, it's also a human thing to realize that you are one of In this case, right now, there's thirteen let's see twelve people up in space on different space stations. As we speak, and they're at the very edge.

Thing? And it's one of the two main reasons that I wrote the book was that you're up there, and it's not just about the floating. You know, you see my hair be big and we're floating around. It's about the fact that you fly from place to place. It's the only way to get around, and it kind of reminds you that you're in a place that almost nobody else is in. All the rules are different, which is extremely important for science and all the stuff we can learn up there. And at the same time, it's also a human thing to realize that you are one of In this case, right now, there's thirteen let's see twelve people up in space on different space stations. As we speak, and they're at the very edge.

I literally cannot imagine it. And I always wonder how people prepare themselves for things. How do you even prepare for an experience that you know you've never had before.

I literally cannot imagine it. And I always wonder how people prepare themselves for things. How do you even prepare for an experience that you know you've never had before.

I mean, what does the physical.

I mean, what does the physical.

Reality of training look like to get ready to be in space?

Reality of training look like to get ready to be in space?

I think there's that all that practicing. It's the reality of needing to be as safe as you can be. Spaceflight will never be safe, but we need to be as safe as we can, and that means you, as a crew member, being able to do your part. You know, if this happens, we need to do this. If there's a fire alarm, you need to you know, don your mask and get to the main computer and you know, and take the certain steps. So we practice those things, we drill them, and we're also of course graded and watched and observed, and that adds that extra tension that helps you make the mistakes that you might make on the real day when that stress comes from seeing actual smoke or realizing you might need to lose leave the space station really quickly. So we do practice all those things. They've got great smart instructors. But then it is really just amazing to then be up there and be able to operate, and I think also to be able to be sort of mentally present as a human. That's really another big important part to think about before you go.

I think there's that all that practicing. It's the reality of needing to be as safe as you can be. Spaceflight will never be safe, but we need to be as safe as we can, and that means you, as a crew member, being able to do your part. You know, if this happens, we need to do this. If there's a fire alarm, you need to you know, don your mask and get to the main computer and you know, and take the certain steps. So we practice those things, we drill them, and we're also of course graded and watched and observed, and that adds that extra tension that helps you make the mistakes that you might make on the real day when that stress comes from seeing actual smoke or realizing you might need to lose leave the space station really quickly. So we do practice all those things. They've got great smart instructors. But then it is really just amazing to then be up there and be able to operate, and I think also to be able to be sort of mentally present as a human. That's really another big important part to think about before you go.

Yeah, and I'm again so many things that I can't imagine about what you just said. Seeing smoke in space and being able to control oneself is pretty remarkable. And I'm curious what it's like coming back because you see clips on YouTube sometimes of astronauts coming back from space and they forget that they're in zero there. Now there's gravity on Earth, and they know they drop whatever they're holding because they expect it to just you know, float by them. I mean, have you had any experiences like that? What does the return trip actually look like?

Yeah, and I'm again so many things that I can't imagine about what you just said. Seeing smoke in space and being able to control oneself is pretty remarkable. And I'm curious what it's like coming back because you see clips on YouTube sometimes of astronauts coming back from space and they forget that they're in zero there. Now there's gravity on Earth, and they know they drop whatever they're holding because they expect it to just you know, float by them. I mean, have you had any experiences like that? What does the return trip actually look like?

Well, it's I would say the words sad, wild, and then just nice to be home. I really didn't want to leave, you know, it was it takes a couple of months to get good at the work up there about not just understanding how to keep everything in its place and do all the experiments and get more done. It really has about a month long learning curse. You just want to stay and get more done. And I felt like my family would be there when I got home, and so I wanted to stay. So it's a little sad. It is as Scott Kelly, who was I was on a crew with Scott, and he talked to us before we came home and talked to us about what landing was like. You said, it's the best e ticket ride you will ever go on. Where I mean you're coming down and and I mean spacecraft are built this way where we haven't a blate of shield under the spacecraft. That means it's supposed to actually burn up, and pieces of burning spacecraft are supposed to go buy the windows. And so knowing that is very comforting, I mean actually having it narrated and understanding what's happening. And he's like, and then parachute opening. He looks at me. He goes Coleman, set a timer. Parachute opening, because you need to make sure that you are not talking because it is so abrupt, And then that capsule is spinning and swinging and it is really wild, and then it settles down and then you're just watching the watching the sort of the feet clock down and realizing you're just going to hit the ground with a really big, solid funk, and you just hope you're not going to get dragged around by that parachute.

Well, it's I would say the words sad, wild, and then just nice to be home. I really didn't want to leave, you know, it was it takes a couple of months to get good at the work up there about not just understanding how to keep everything in its place and do all the experiments and get more done. It really has about a month long learning curse. You just want to stay and get more done. And I felt like my family would be there when I got home, and so I wanted to stay. So it's a little sad. It is as Scott Kelly, who was I was on a crew with Scott, and he talked to us before we came home and talked to us about what landing was like. You said, it's the best e ticket ride you will ever go on. Where I mean you're coming down and and I mean spacecraft are built this way where we haven't a blate of shield under the spacecraft. That means it's supposed to actually burn up, and pieces of burning spacecraft are supposed to go buy the windows. And so knowing that is very comforting, I mean actually having it narrated and understanding what's happening. And he's like, and then parachute opening. He looks at me. He goes Coleman, set a timer. Parachute opening, because you need to make sure that you are not talking because it is so abrupt, And then that capsule is spinning and swinging and it is really wild, and then it settles down and then you're just watching the watching the sort of the feet clock down and realizing you're just going to hit the ground with a really big, solid funk, and you just hope you're not going to get dragged around by that parachute.

Hey Katie, I'm wondering if you can talk to us a little bit about the way that borders kind of melt in space. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because you know the ISS, for example, US Space Agency, ros Cosmos, Russian Space Agency, European Space Agency, Japan, Canada. Oftentimes you're with people from all over the world as an astro or not, and although countries might not get along on the ground, sometimes you're getting along in space. And I'm wondering what your experience was seeing the world kind of come together in.

Hey Katie, I'm wondering if you can talk to us a little bit about the way that borders kind of melt in space. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because you know the ISS, for example, US Space Agency, ros Cosmos, Russian Space Agency, European Space Agency, Japan, Canada. Oftentimes you're with people from all over the world as an astro or not, and although countries might not get along on the ground, sometimes you're getting along in space. And I'm wondering what your experience was seeing the world kind of come together in.

Space being part of you know, not just the mission up there, but the getting ready. It's been my experience that, you know, the governments say this is what we're going to do together, and there's formal agreements, but it is the people that really bring the mission together and make it happen, because it happens by having dinner with each other, by going for walks, by saying, what's your family like, can I meet your family? And that's really what brought our crew together. And so being up there, especially in times like these, all I can say is from what I understand everyone is doing their job and not and that means on the ground, that means the crew up in space and not even thinking about not doing their job, because the mission itself is really really clear. Up there, you are together as a crew, keeping each other safe. And you know, down here on the ground, we don't always agree with each other. Hear all about it on your show, you know. I mean, it's and it's not easy, and sometimes you just have to like put the things you can't agree about there they're not part of the mission right now, which is in our case down here figuring out how are we going to make sure everybody can live safely down here on Earth?

Space being part of you know, not just the mission up there, but the getting ready. It's been my experience that, you know, the governments say this is what we're going to do together, and there's formal agreements, but it is the people that really bring the mission together and make it happen, because it happens by having dinner with each other, by going for walks, by saying, what's your family like, can I meet your family? And that's really what brought our crew together. And so being up there, especially in times like these, all I can say is from what I understand everyone is doing their job and not and that means on the ground, that means the crew up in space and not even thinking about not doing their job, because the mission itself is really really clear. Up there, you are together as a crew, keeping each other safe. And you know, down here on the ground, we don't always agree with each other. Hear all about it on your show, you know. I mean, it's and it's not easy, and sometimes you just have to like put the things you can't agree about there they're not part of the mission right now, which is in our case down here figuring out how are we going to make sure everybody can live safely down here on Earth?

All right, we don't have too much time left. But one thing we wanted to talk about is Mars, and we mentioned Elon Musk's lifelong dream is to colonize Mars. What are your thoughts on colonizing Mars or actually putting humans on that planet?

All right, we don't have too much time left. But one thing we wanted to talk about is Mars, and we mentioned Elon Musk's lifelong dream is to colonize Mars. What are your thoughts on colonizing Mars or actually putting humans on that planet?

Eventually, absolutely, we will be doing that, and I think it's a good time for everybody to be thinking about it and how to do it, and even thinking, you know, I like to think about settling Mars, which to me and Pop implies more like having a plan and going there to get there, and you know, for one country to be the only country there doesn't seem like the right thing to me. And I think that comes from that view from the space station of looking back at the Earth, and you talked about dissolving borders. When I look back there, I see, first of all, I feel very close to home. But second, I see that everyone could be and actually is so connected if only they knew how much we could accomplish more together. And that includes doing the most important thing I think we'll do, which is colonizing and going off and settling on Mars.

Eventually, absolutely, we will be doing that, and I think it's a good time for everybody to be thinking about it and how to do it, and even thinking, you know, I like to think about settling Mars, which to me and Pop implies more like having a plan and going there to get there, and you know, for one country to be the only country there doesn't seem like the right thing to me. And I think that comes from that view from the space station of looking back at the Earth, and you talked about dissolving borders. When I look back there, I see, first of all, I feel very close to home. But second, I see that everyone could be and actually is so connected if only they knew how much we could accomplish more together. And that includes doing the most important thing I think we'll do, which is colonizing and going off and settling on Mars.

Very very cool. Thank you so much for sharing some of your journey with us. You can read more about Katie Coleman's journey in her new book out today. It's called Sharing Space, An Astronaut's Guide to Mission Wonder and Making Change. This is business week. Think about it for a second, Katie. Games everywhere we look.

Very very cool. Thank you so much for sharing some of your journey with us. You can read more about Katie Coleman's journey in her new book out today. It's called Sharing Space, An Astronaut's Guide to Mission Wonder and Making Change. This is business week. Think about it for a second, Katie. Games everywhere we look.

They are. Yeah, they're on your phone, okay, and that's really the only place I look.

They are. Yeah, they're on your phone, okay, and that's really the only place I look.

Actually, I'm not just talking about good old fashion competition when you play monopoly or something, or sports or video games. I think we can call video games old fashion now, I think rightly, Okay, restaurants and apps offer us deals or allow us to level up by using a service. Maybe you wear a sleep tracker and you look at that sleep score trying to get it higher, to get more sleep. Cyclists and maybe runners. Do you do this as a runner? Are you obsessed with comparing your times on certain Strava segments?

Actually, I'm not just talking about good old fashion competition when you play monopoly or something, or sports or video games. I think we can call video games old fashion now, I think rightly, Okay, restaurants and apps offer us deals or allow us to level up by using a service. Maybe you wear a sleep tracker and you look at that sleep score trying to get it higher, to get more sleep. Cyclists and maybe runners. Do you do this as a runner? Are you obsessed with comparing your times on certain Strava segments?

Not as much. I will say, I do wear a garment, as we've discussed, And yeah, I mean, if you're not quantifying your life, what's the point.

Not as much. I will say, I do wear a garment, as we've discussed, And yeah, I mean, if you're not quantifying your life, what's the point.

Well, every week you're at Bloomberg, we fight for ephemeral glory against our colleagues in the Bloomberg News quiz on the Bloomberg terminal. Needless to say, there are games everywhere. And Kelly Clancy has just written an entire book about games, but not necessarily the way that I'm talking about. She's a neuroscientist, physicist, and author. She's held research positions at mit U see Berkeley, the AI research company deep Mind, and more. Her new book is called Playing with Reality, How Games Have Shaped Our World? Kelly, how are you?

Well, every week you're at Bloomberg, we fight for ephemeral glory against our colleagues in the Bloomberg News quiz on the Bloomberg terminal. Needless to say, there are games everywhere. And Kelly Clancy has just written an entire book about games, but not necessarily the way that I'm talking about. She's a neuroscientist, physicist, and author. She's held research positions at mit U see Berkeley, the AI research company deep Mind, and more. Her new book is called Playing with Reality, How Games Have Shaped Our World? Kelly, how are you?

Thanks? Thanks so much for having me.

Thanks? Thanks so much for having me.

Yeah, congratulations on the book. How do you define game?

Yeah, congratulations on the book. How do you define game?

So I think of a game as a system that's endowed with a goal, and players involved in the game have to abide by certain rules to get to the goal. So, for example, with golf, the goal is to get a.

So I think of a game as a system that's endowed with a goal, and players involved in the game have to abide by certain rules to get to the goal. So, for example, with golf, the goal is to get a.

Hole in a ball in the hole, but you can't just pick the ball up and walk it over to the hole. You have to hit it with funny sticks and abide by certain rules.

Hole in a ball in the hole, but you can't just pick the ball up and walk it over to the hole. You have to hit it with funny sticks and abide by certain rules.

And so, Kelly, I mean, you make the point the argument that games have been really important to human progress, and that's a big statement. So maybe just unpack what you mean by that, like, what have been some of the pivotal games out there that have advanced humanity to where we're sitting today.

And so, Kelly, I mean, you make the point the argument that games have been really important to human progress, and that's a big statement. So maybe just unpack what you mean by that, like, what have been some of the pivotal games out there that have advanced humanity to where we're sitting today.

Yeah, so if you look at the history of games in humanity, we actually have evidence of games going back further than written language. And actually it's not just a human endeavor, of course, like almost all animals play. Mammals play. It's very hard to find animals that don't play in some form, So it's this kind of evolutionarily ancient behavior and something really important. I was working at deep Mind, and you know that this company is famous for having created AI programs that play really complex games like Go or StarCraft at human like expert human levels, and I was wondering why it was that a company would be spending hundreds of millions of dollars on training programs to play games, Like, what is so compelling that animals across different evolutionary genuses And you know, humans throughout history have been so drawn to games. And you can think of games as basically something that the brain created to fascinate itself. It's it's it's a kind of self stimulation for the brain. And so you know, we can ask the question what can we learn about people by studying something that fascinates them? And of course games are completely fascinated to people. We have people with gambling addictions, we have you know, histories of games being outlawed by kings before being so popular. So the general question was, how do we what can we learn about the brain and people and human behavior by studying games?

Yeah, so if you look at the history of games in humanity, we actually have evidence of games going back further than written language. And actually it's not just a human endeavor, of course, like almost all animals play. Mammals play. It's very hard to find animals that don't play in some form, So it's this kind of evolutionarily ancient behavior and something really important. I was working at deep Mind, and you know that this company is famous for having created AI programs that play really complex games like Go or StarCraft at human like expert human levels, and I was wondering why it was that a company would be spending hundreds of millions of dollars on training programs to play games, Like, what is so compelling that animals across different evolutionary genuses And you know, humans throughout history have been so drawn to games. And you can think of games as basically something that the brain created to fascinate itself. It's it's it's a kind of self stimulation for the brain. And so you know, we can ask the question what can we learn about people by studying something that fascinates them? And of course games are completely fascinated to people. We have people with gambling addictions, we have you know, histories of games being outlawed by kings before being so popular. So the general question was, how do we what can we learn about the brain and people and human behavior by studying games?

Well, what can we learn because you also argue in the book that games can be dangerous and so I'm curious how games become dangerous?

Well, what can we learn because you also argue in the book that games can be dangerous and so I'm curious how games become dangerous?

Yeah, So games are in part compelling because the whole mo of the brain is to create models of the world. It's trying to predict what's happening in the world. It wants to be able to anticipate, you know, events coming up, and so the brain is trying to make models of the world and anything that's kind of it's uncertain Like anything random that it hasn't modeled is like a big red flag to the brain, Like that's something I don't understand and I want to learn more about it. And games are all about uncertainty, you know. If you think about Tic Tac toe, little kids will play Tiktac tooe until they realize that it always ends in a draw.

Yeah, So games are in part compelling because the whole mo of the brain is to create models of the world. It's trying to predict what's happening in the world. It wants to be able to anticipate, you know, events coming up, and so the brain is trying to make models of the world and anything that's kind of it's uncertain Like anything random that it hasn't modeled is like a big red flag to the brain, Like that's something I don't understand and I want to learn more about it. And games are all about uncertainty, you know. If you think about Tic Tac toe, little kids will play Tiktac tooe until they realize that it always ends in a draw.

Hold on, wait, I'm actually going through this experience with my five year old.

Hold on, wait, I'm actually going through this experience with my five year old.

Right now, the one who wanted to go to the library, which is a.

Right now, the one who wanted to go to the library, which is a.

True story, Katie, I will always tell a true story. I thought people can win Tiktak tooe? Is it always ending.

True story, Katie, I will always tell a true story. I thought people can win Tiktak tooe? Is it always ending.

Just beating him?

Just beating him?

No, it is. It's always ending in a draw right now, And I'm like, when is one of us sure?

No, it is. It's always ending in a draw right now, And I'm like, when is one of us sure?

Which is more embarrassing potentially, but Kelly, please go on.

Which is more embarrassing potentially, but Kelly, please go on.

Well, if you play it perfectly, it always ends in a draw. So if you play it like the most optimally you can, it can win. It can end in a win if one player is very naive and they don't really know the right strategy.

Well, if you play it perfectly, it always ends in a draw. So if you play it like the most optimally you can, it can win. It can end in a win if one player is very naive and they don't really know the right strategy.

Yeah, you shall correct, but it's it's sorry, no, please go ahead.

Yeah, you shall correct, but it's it's sorry, no, please go ahead.

Oh it's just so.

Oh it's just so.

Yeah, games are interesting and as far as they're you know, uncertain, unsure, there's something, you know, there's a sense that we're learning something from them, and this can be kind of hijacked by by things like gambling or dice, where there's a sense of learning, there's a random signal that the brain is really compelled to drawn to, but you never really learned anything from it because gambling is, you know, a random event, and so you know, this is true of animals as well. They can become addicted literally to random processes, to dice. So this is the danger of games is that they can sort of draw us in and keep us enthralled.

Yeah, games are interesting and as far as they're you know, uncertain, unsure, there's something, you know, there's a sense that we're learning something from them, and this can be kind of hijacked by by things like gambling or dice, where there's a sense of learning, there's a random signal that the brain is really compelled to drawn to, but you never really learned anything from it because gambling is, you know, a random event, and so you know, this is true of animals as well. They can become addicted literally to random processes, to dice. So this is the danger of games is that they can sort of draw us in and keep us enthralled.

Yeah, and I mean you think about a border collie. If you teach a border collie how to play fetch, it will never stop wanting to play fetch. So it's definitely dangerous from that perspective as well, Kelly. But talk to us a little bit about game theory, for example, And when I think game theory, I think of the military. Honestly, I think of war. And when you talk about how games could be dangerous, I mean, is that one of the avenues potentially or is that too far of a stretch.

Yeah, and I mean you think about a border collie. If you teach a border collie how to play fetch, it will never stop wanting to play fetch. So it's definitely dangerous from that perspective as well, Kelly. But talk to us a little bit about game theory, for example, And when I think game theory, I think of the military. Honestly, I think of war. And when you talk about how games could be dangerous, I mean, is that one of the avenues potentially or is that too far of a stretch.

Yeah, that's absolutely correct. So game theory is a field of mathematics that was founded by John von Neumann, who is a mathematician living in the last century who fled Europe as Hitler was coming to power and became really obsessed with the question of how do we kind of mathematically analyze human behavior? Are there ways that we can work out what truly rational behavior would look like? And he used games as his sort of field of study because you can think of life as a game where we're making decisions, trying to achieve some goal and working towards it and maybe playing against other people in the game of life. So game theory is a beautiful realm of mathematics that has become the foundation for a lot of modern economics. Also has become foundational for a lot of sort of military policies. When John von Neuman was working he was also working on the nuclear bomb, and with the advent of nuclear weapons, we suddenly had war that was happening at a much faster timescale. It could, you know, the course of history could change in a matter of minutes or hours, and so game theory was promised to be this new kind of technology or science of decision making where it could aid military officers in making these sort of history changing decisions in a matter of minutes. So it was promised to be the synthetic rationality.

Yeah, that's absolutely correct. So game theory is a field of mathematics that was founded by John von Neumann, who is a mathematician living in the last century who fled Europe as Hitler was coming to power and became really obsessed with the question of how do we kind of mathematically analyze human behavior? Are there ways that we can work out what truly rational behavior would look like? And he used games as his sort of field of study because you can think of life as a game where we're making decisions, trying to achieve some goal and working towards it and maybe playing against other people in the game of life. So game theory is a beautiful realm of mathematics that has become the foundation for a lot of modern economics. Also has become foundational for a lot of sort of military policies. When John von Neuman was working he was also working on the nuclear bomb, and with the advent of nuclear weapons, we suddenly had war that was happening at a much faster timescale. It could, you know, the course of history could change in a matter of minutes or hours, and so game theory was promised to be this new kind of technology or science of decision making where it could aid military officers in making these sort of history changing decisions in a matter of minutes. So it was promised to be the synthetic rationality.

Kelly, would you consider endless scroll on social media platforms and like, you know, the way that TikTok's algorithm works. Would you define that or categorize that as a part of gaming.

Kelly, would you consider endless scroll on social media platforms and like, you know, the way that TikTok's algorithm works. Would you define that or categorize that as a part of gaming.

I think it takes certain aspects from gamification, where you're trying to kind of grab the attention of users or players as much as possible, And the novelty of a social media feed is exactly the same thing as like rolling a dice, So I think it is in many ways gamified.

I think it takes certain aspects from gamification, where you're trying to kind of grab the attention of users or players as much as possible, And the novelty of a social media feed is exactly the same thing as like rolling a dice, So I think it is in many ways gamified.

Yeah. I wonder about the idea of like likes yea, and sort of checking back to see if I see you nodding, Kelly.

Yeah. I wonder about the idea of like likes yea, and sort of checking back to see if I see you nodding, Kelly.

Yeah, Yeah, I think likes. You know, on Reddit you can actually literally like get coins and all kinds of gold.

Yeah, Yeah, I think likes. You know, on Reddit you can actually literally like get coins and all kinds of gold.

Yeah, right, we'll find out one of these days. Hey, Kelly, really appreciate you joining us on on Bloomberg BusinessWeek. The book it's out now, it's called Playing With Reality, How Games have shaped Our world. Kelly Clancy is a neuroscientist, a physicist, an author. She's held research positions at mit UC Berkeley in the AI research company deep Mind. Once Again the book Playing with Reality, How Games Have Shaped Our World

Yeah, right, we'll find out one of these days. Hey, Kelly, really appreciate you joining us on on Bloomberg BusinessWeek. The book it's out now, it's called Playing With Reality, How Games have shaped Our world. Kelly Clancy is a neuroscientist, a physicist, an author. She's held research positions at mit UC Berkeley in the AI research company deep Mind. Once Again the book Playing with Reality, How Games Have Shaped Our World