Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio.

Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio.

Some news in the world of Google today. The information out with the report that Google has told some researchers to take out language that has to do with THEEI now. The information cited someone with direct knowledge of the instructions. Instead, Carol, they're told to use terms like build for all in universal design rather than terms like product equity and inclusion. It's similar to what we're seeing from so many companies in recent months.

Some news in the world of Google today. The information out with the report that Google has told some researchers to take out language that has to do with THEEI now. The information cited someone with direct knowledge of the instructions. Instead, Carol, they're told to use terms like build for all in universal design rather than terms like product equity and inclusion. It's similar to what we're seeing from so many companies in recent months.

I would safe to say that I think HR departments and workforces and companies they're trying to figure it out in this new environment. Our next guest spent eighteen years at Google, working in a wide variety of roles, including starting the popular Own Your Career program at the company. Purpose of that program is to help people at Google do their own jobs better and even get their next job at the company. She took that work, she turned it into a book. It's called Wild Courage. It's go after what you want and get it. And she joins us here in our interactive broker's studio. It is good to have you here with us. We want to start broadly because the work environment is going through some changes, and I think you know obviously the political environment and you know that is certainly finding its way into the workforce. How does a company kind of find their way through? How do they stay true to their employee base, how do they stay to the programs that they may be put in place over the last five to ten years and believe it's important to the company, and yet face a government of federal government and administration that is looking at these things very closely.

I would safe to say that I think HR departments and workforces and companies they're trying to figure it out in this new environment. Our next guest spent eighteen years at Google, working in a wide variety of roles, including starting the popular Own Your Career program at the company. Purpose of that program is to help people at Google do their own jobs better and even get their next job at the company. She took that work, she turned it into a book. It's called Wild Courage. It's go after what you want and get it. And she joins us here in our interactive broker's studio. It is good to have you here with us. We want to start broadly because the work environment is going through some changes, and I think you know obviously the political environment and you know that is certainly finding its way into the workforce. How does a company kind of find their way through? How do they stay true to their employee base, how do they stay to the programs that they may be put in place over the last five to ten years and believe it's important to the company, and yet face a government of federal government and administration that is looking at these things very closely.

Yeah, well, there's no doubt there's tremendous change in the workplace and how this is evolving with DEI programs. And what's so important about this work and in this book Wild Courage go after what you want and get it, is that this puts the agency back on you. Matter what's happening that might be outside of your control, this puts the agency on you. So right now, think of something you want. It could be a goal, a promotion, or raise, a relationship even and think about what's standing between you and achieving that thing. Well, by the time I started working on Wild Courage, I trained tens of thousands of people directly and directly on success, leadership, influence, and the same theme kept coming up their relationship to fear, fear of failure, fear of uncertainty, fear of judgment of others, and wild courage is the process of feeling that fear and taking action anyway. And it's the set of tools that help you go after what you want and get it. And it's so important right now because we feel like we're lacking so much control. There's so much that we can't change. But this you can. You can always change yourself and push past that fear.

Yeah, well, there's no doubt there's tremendous change in the workplace and how this is evolving with DEI programs. And what's so important about this work and in this book Wild Courage go after what you want and get it, is that this puts the agency back on you. Matter what's happening that might be outside of your control, this puts the agency on you. So right now, think of something you want. It could be a goal, a promotion, or raise, a relationship even and think about what's standing between you and achieving that thing. Well, by the time I started working on Wild Courage, I trained tens of thousands of people directly and directly on success, leadership, influence, and the same theme kept coming up their relationship to fear, fear of failure, fear of uncertainty, fear of judgment of others, and wild courage is the process of feeling that fear and taking action anyway. And it's the set of tools that help you go after what you want and get it. And it's so important right now because we feel like we're lacking so much control. There's so much that we can't change. But this you can. You can always change yourself and push past that fear.

But Jenny, what if you say, listen, I'm working at this company. I love this company. I've been here for several years, love it. And then all of a sudden they're like, hey, folks, these DEI initiatives, we're not gonna do anymore. We're gonna move away from these things. Like you talk about having no fear, Like, do you go to your management, does the employee base do we anticipate that they kind of step up and take notice and say, wait a minute, folks, this isn't the culture we've had. I don't want to work here anymore. Do you anticipate that we might see employee bases kind of fighting back.

But Jenny, what if you say, listen, I'm working at this company. I love this company. I've been here for several years, love it. And then all of a sudden they're like, hey, folks, these DEI initiatives, we're not gonna do anymore. We're gonna move away from these things. Like you talk about having no fear, Like, do you go to your management, does the employee base do we anticipate that they kind of step up and take notice and say, wait a minute, folks, this isn't the culture we've had. I don't want to work here anymore. Do you anticipate that we might see employee bases kind of fighting back.

Yeah, well, I think we will see a shift for sure, and I think a shift. And what I think, I think we'll see a shift in how people feel and how people feel a sense of what this company provides or what you know is part of the culture or part of what they expect of any kind of DEI programs or any sort of expected resources or you know, a shift away a shift. Well, I think that I think that if these we're already starting to see the shifts, right, you just mentioned some of them already, with people change, changing language, and so I think people will rise to the occasion again, start taking agency, and start finding their own ways to learn and grow because a lot of these DEI programs are helping with communication, they're helping with confidence, they're helping level the playing field, and that's what I try to do in Wild Courage. So it's almost a perfect time to be bringing this work to the world, which is very different than the work I did at Google, but so much more exciting and energizing because it covered these nine sisily traits.

Yeah, well, I think we will see a shift for sure, and I think a shift. And what I think, I think we'll see a shift in how people feel and how people feel a sense of what this company provides or what you know is part of the culture or part of what they expect of any kind of DEI programs or any sort of expected resources or you know, a shift away a shift. Well, I think that I think that if these we're already starting to see the shifts, right, you just mentioned some of them already, with people change, changing language, and so I think people will rise to the occasion again, start taking agency, and start finding their own ways to learn and grow because a lot of these DEI programs are helping with communication, they're helping with confidence, they're helping level the playing field, and that's what I try to do in Wild Courage. So it's almost a perfect time to be bringing this work to the world, which is very different than the work I did at Google, but so much more exciting and energizing because it covered these nine sisily traits.

Well, let's talk about some of those traits, because there are some traits in here that I think people would be surprised to hear in this type of book. For example, Manipulative, you argue that people have to be manipulative, they have to learn how to be manipulative to have this wild courage. What do you mean?

Well, let's talk about some of those traits, because there are some traits in here that I think people would be surprised to hear in this type of book. For example, Manipulative, you argue that people have to be manipulative, they have to learn how to be manipulative to have this wild courage. What do you mean?

Yeah, so I'm reclaiming language here. These are nine traits that raise eyebrows. Right, weird, selfish, shameless, nosey, obsessed, brutal, manipulative, reckless, bossy. But you we fear, we live in fear that people might call us one of these traits, and so it prevents us from taking action, from being bold and going after what we want. And so when we reclaim them, we could think of manipulative, not in the traditional sense, but more in a sense of the courage to have influence and build lasting relationships. Because whether you're selling a product, a program, or frankly yourself, your ability to win friends and allies and partners is all about mutual benefit. And that's where I want people to lean in.

Yeah, so I'm reclaiming language here. These are nine traits that raise eyebrows. Right, weird, selfish, shameless, nosey, obsessed, brutal, manipulative, reckless, bossy. But you we fear, we live in fear that people might call us one of these traits, and so it prevents us from taking action, from being bold and going after what we want. And so when we reclaim them, we could think of manipulative, not in the traditional sense, but more in a sense of the courage to have influence and build lasting relationships. Because whether you're selling a product, a program, or frankly yourself, your ability to win friends and allies and partners is all about mutual benefit. And that's where I want people to lean in.

Well, it's not just the workplace. You talk about it from a personal perspective too. Your husband John, Yeah, how you met him? Yeah, talk about that.

Well, it's not just the workplace. You talk about it from a personal perspective too. Your husband John, Yeah, how you met him? Yeah, talk about that.

So it's twenty eleven. I'm riding the subway home from work to see train, and about twenty feet away from me stands this really gorgeous guy, beautiful blue eyes, thick brown, wavy hair, and I want to talk to him, but something holds me back. Fear of failure. What if he's a convicted felon, Fear of uncertainty, what if he's married? Fear of judgment? Right, what if a hundred people stare at me on this packed train? The same three fears that I hope wild courage helps people push through. So I you know, I'm a confident Google employee on the outside, but I'm scared and timid on the inside. So I do nothing as the train passes stop after stop after stop, and frankly as life passes me by. But I make a deal with the universe. I say, if he gets off at my stopped, then maybe I'll try to strike up a conversation with him, and if not, then say lovey. He gets off at the next stop, fifty ninth Street, that is not my stop, And then all of a sudden, I feel this wave of wild courage wash over me and practically push me off the subway and I catch up with him. I tap him on the shoulder, I say, excuse me, I'm sorry to bother you. You're wearing gloves, so I can't tell if you're wearing a wedding ring. But in the event that you're not married, you were on my subway and I thought you were cute. Any chance I could give you my business card? He calls the next day, We go out. A week later, three years later, we're getting married. And we've now been married happily for eleven years, with two great little hooligans Sat seven and nine. Are Ya Noah.

So it's twenty eleven. I'm riding the subway home from work to see train, and about twenty feet away from me stands this really gorgeous guy, beautiful blue eyes, thick brown, wavy hair, and I want to talk to him, but something holds me back. Fear of failure. What if he's a convicted felon, Fear of uncertainty, what if he's married? Fear of judgment? Right, what if a hundred people stare at me on this packed train? The same three fears that I hope wild courage helps people push through. So I you know, I'm a confident Google employee on the outside, but I'm scared and timid on the inside. So I do nothing as the train passes stop after stop after stop, and frankly as life passes me by. But I make a deal with the universe. I say, if he gets off at my stopped, then maybe I'll try to strike up a conversation with him, and if not, then say lovey. He gets off at the next stop, fifty ninth Street, that is not my stop, And then all of a sudden, I feel this wave of wild courage wash over me and practically push me off the subway and I catch up with him. I tap him on the shoulder, I say, excuse me, I'm sorry to bother you. You're wearing gloves, so I can't tell if you're wearing a wedding ring. But in the event that you're not married, you were on my subway and I thought you were cute. Any chance I could give you my business card? He calls the next day, We go out. A week later, three years later, we're getting married. And we've now been married happily for eleven years, with two great little hooligans Sat seven and nine. Are Ya Noah.

I'm just gonna say that, for those of us who live in love in New York, it's very easy that that story could have been.

I'm just gonna say that, for those of us who live in love in New York, it's very easy that that story could have been.

Where he called the conductor or the police. Up'd say. I'm not saying wild. Courage works every time. I mean, you know, we talked.

Where he called the conductor or the police. Up'd say. I'm not saying wild. Courage works every time. I mean, you know, we talked.

I listen to this and I'm just saying, well, wait.

I listen to this and I'm just saying, well, wait.

A minute, no offense.

A minute, no offense.

Yeah, but I still think that there's differences for men and women with some of these traits. Yeah, so help me out here.

Yeah, but I still think that there's differences for men and women with some of these traits. Yeah, so help me out here.

Yeah, well, I just had this beautiful home coming back to Google. I just gave a keynote at Google and someone did ask, well, like, how does this you know relate to women versus men? And these labels can get very gendered, especially some of them shameless or manipulative or bossy, right or nosey. These are some that sometimes are labeled more toward women versus men, but the underlying principles of wild courage are applicable for anybody, whether you're an employee or an entrepreneur, male female, born in South Polo or Tokyo or New York, because the root of it all is the courage to push past that fear to chase what you want.

Yeah, well, I just had this beautiful home coming back to Google. I just gave a keynote at Google and someone did ask, well, like, how does this you know relate to women versus men? And these labels can get very gendered, especially some of them shameless or manipulative or bossy, right or nosey. These are some that sometimes are labeled more toward women versus men, but the underlying principles of wild courage are applicable for anybody, whether you're an employee or an entrepreneur, male female, born in South Polo or Tokyo or New York, because the root of it all is the courage to push past that fear to chase what you want.

Which ones do you think are gendered?

Which ones do you think are gendered?

Bossy, bossy?

Bossy, bossy?

I feel like women often get called bossy and often don't get called bossy.

I feel like women often get called bossy and often don't get called bossy.

Yeah, I've never heard a man called bossy. I've heard a man called direct and a strong leader and confident is another one. Oh yeah, well I think I think I hate but.

Yeah, I've never heard a man called bossy. I've heard a man called direct and a strong leader and confident is another one. Oh yeah, well I think I think I hate but.

I think let it like, let it go already rise with you know, he's going after what he wants.

I think let it like, let it go already rise with you know, he's going after what he wants.

Yeah, he's determined, he's he's going after opportunities. He's strategic. Right. A woman is manipulative, a man is strategic. A woman is a bossy man is you know?

Yeah, he's determined, he's he's going after opportunities. He's strategic. Right. A woman is manipulative, a man is strategic. A woman is a bossy man is you know?

Dig So do you think men and women have to approach this differently?

Dig So do you think men and women have to approach this differently?

Uh? Well, I think that it's interesting you asked that. In each trait, each chapter, I share what are called trait traps, right when you take a trait too far and you're classically manipulative or classically selfish. Again, selfish is the courage to stand up for what you want. Shameless is the courage to stand behind your efforts and abilities. Well, because this can be harder for women to toe that line because of things like the double bind. Right, supposed to be sweet and nice, but we're also in a workplace want to be direct and confident and confident. So I think that women are probably going to be perceived as falling into these trait traps more often than men, just because the expectations of women can be different. But it really does run the gamut. It depends on the person, depends on their personality, depends on the environment.

Uh? Well, I think that it's interesting you asked that. In each trait, each chapter, I share what are called trait traps, right when you take a trait too far and you're classically manipulative or classically selfish. Again, selfish is the courage to stand up for what you want. Shameless is the courage to stand behind your efforts and abilities. Well, because this can be harder for women to toe that line because of things like the double bind. Right, supposed to be sweet and nice, but we're also in a workplace want to be direct and confident and confident. So I think that women are probably going to be perceived as falling into these trait traps more often than men, just because the expectations of women can be different. But it really does run the gamut. It depends on the person, depends on their personality, depends on the environment.

I love this too, because you do provide a lot of context around each of these words or these approaches. But you say power grows through proximity. Get adjacent to it, rub shoulders with the elite, Listen, pay attention, be seen. Few people to know. For people to know you, they first have to recognize you. To be visible, be pressent, next to you.

I love this too, because you do provide a lot of context around each of these words or these approaches. But you say power grows through proximity. Get adjacent to it, rub shoulders with the elite, Listen, pay attention, be seen. Few people to know. For people to know you, they first have to recognize you. To be visible, be pressent, next to you.

Exactly, I got to sit next to you. Everybody stops it you.

Exactly, I got to sit next to you. Everybody stops it you.

But what's the balance between being noticed and being annoying? Because because someone who is a squeaky wheel constantly, I think it's safe to say that people sometimes they don't. They start to ignore you. Sometimes they listen because they're like, enough already, let's.

But what's the balance between being noticed and being annoying? Because because someone who is a squeaky wheel constantly, I think it's safe to say that people sometimes they don't. They start to ignore you. Sometimes they listen because they're like, enough already, let's.

Just do what this person wants. So here's where I like to challenge people. You might know some people in your life who are that obnoxious, over the top, too much squeaky wheel.

Just do what this person wants. So here's where I like to challenge people. You might know some people in your life who are that obnoxious, over the top, too much squeaky wheel.

We're immediate, that never happens, right, But actually maybe maybe you're Actually most of us are normal.

We're immediate, that never happens, right, But actually maybe maybe you're Actually most of us are normal.

Well right, okay, so you just sort of shared it right there. You go ahead.

Well right, okay, so you just sort of shared it right there. You go ahead.

Well, I'm saying if you're saying you're the normal one, Carol, if you're saying we're not, we're not normal.

Well, I'm saying if you're saying you're the normal one, Carol, if you're saying we're not, we're not normal.

We're not normal, We're not normal, that's a probably a bad word. Go ahead. Outside of media, think of twenty people friends from colleague, former colleagues. My hunch is that the majority of them, you think, need to dial it up and kick their imposter syndrome to the curb, or be more confident or ask for what they want. It's like the advice you'd give to a friend, like, no, your company laid off three people and now you're doing the job of them, and they've given you no more money and no raise and no promotion and no different title. You'd say, well, go ask your boss for what you need a new title and a twenty percent raise, But we fail to do that ourselves. So it's almost like wild. Courage is the advice you give to your friend, but that you struggle to give to yourself.

We're not normal, We're not normal, that's a probably a bad word. Go ahead. Outside of media, think of twenty people friends from colleague, former colleagues. My hunch is that the majority of them, you think, need to dial it up and kick their imposter syndrome to the curb, or be more confident or ask for what they want. It's like the advice you'd give to a friend, like, no, your company laid off three people and now you're doing the job of them, and they've given you no more money and no raise and no promotion and no different title. You'd say, well, go ask your boss for what you need a new title and a twenty percent raise, But we fail to do that ourselves. So it's almost like wild. Courage is the advice you give to your friend, but that you struggle to give to yourself.

So what if you ask, you have the courage you ask and they're like no, Yeah, this happened to me real quickly that thirty seconds.

So what if you ask, you have the courage you ask and they're like no, Yeah, this happened to me real quickly that thirty seconds.

Yeah, okay, So I was doing a lot of asking about this book, people helping me promote it, and some people ghosted me, some people just gave me a blatant no, and some people in a really harsh way, and you just have to push through it. It's spine straightening. It's part of being reckless and taking risks and airing on the side of action, and that makes you better over time.

Yeah, okay, So I was doing a lot of asking about this book, people helping me promote it, and some people ghosted me, some people just gave me a blatant no, and some people in a really harsh way, and you just have to push through it. It's spine straightening. It's part of being reckless and taking risks and airing on the side of action, and that makes you better over time.

Good stuff. Interesting. By the way, I think you're normal.

Good stuff. Interesting. By the way, I think you're normal.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Well, chapter one is weird, so.

Well, chapter one is weird, so.

I'm not normal.

I'm not normal.

JENNI, thank you so much. About good luck with the books. Jenny would print book is act. Today it's called wild courage. Go after what you want and get it.

JENNI, thank you so much. About good luck with the books. Jenny would print book is act. Today it's called wild courage. Go after what you want and get it.