Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio.

Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio.

Carol Masser, Yes, you can't always get what you want.

Carol Masser, Yes, you can't always get what you want.

Have you heard that Mick Jagger says that Rolling Stones say.

Have you heard that Mick Jagger says that Rolling Stones say.

Yeah, they do.

Yeah, they do.

It may be true, but if you play your cards right, you can get what you need from the people you work with. At least that's what human behavior professor and career coach Melody Wilding says in her new book. She's professor of human behavior at Hunter College. The new book it's out this week. It's called Managing Up. How to get what you need from the people in charge. She joins us here in the Bloomberg Interactive at Brokers Studio. Welcome.

It may be true, but if you play your cards right, you can get what you need from the people you work with. At least that's what human behavior professor and career coach Melody Wilding says in her new book. She's professor of human behavior at Hunter College. The new book it's out this week. It's called Managing Up. How to get what you need from the people in charge. She joins us here in the Bloomberg Interactive at Brokers Studio. Welcome.

Can I just say I was telling you.

Can I just say I was telling you.

Fan of the Rolling Stones?

Fan of the Rolling Stones?

No, I am a fan. I mean with Jagger at the oscars. I mean, how cool was that? Having said that, I remember someone one saying to me, you're so good, but you don't manage up enough.

No, I am a fan. I mean with Jagger at the oscars. I mean, how cool was that? Having said that, I remember someone one saying to me, you're so good, but you don't manage up enough.

And it was like, who was that?

And it was like, who was that?

And when I'm going to tell you the details? But what was kind of crazy later off air? But it mean, you know, in most of my life. I just did my job, did it well, worked really hard, and things just happened. But I understand the importance of managing up. Tell us first of all, tell us exactly what that means.

And when I'm going to tell you the details? But what was kind of crazy later off air? But it mean, you know, in most of my life. I just did my job, did it well, worked really hard, and things just happened. But I understand the importance of managing up. Tell us first of all, tell us exactly what that means.

Yes, And I think it's worth rebranding managing up because a lot of people hear it and they think suck up. They think the person who's ingratiating themselves to their body.

Yes, And I think it's worth rebranding managing up because a lot of people hear it and they think suck up. They think the person who's ingratiating themselves to their body.

I think it's suck up exactly, we see someone exactly.

I think it's suck up exactly, we see someone exactly.

But managing up done well is building a relationship with the people that have more positional power than you. Primarily that's going to be your manager, but today a lot more people besides your direct boss control your success and your future at work. And so, just as you were saying, it is more important than ever because work is more complex than ever, and now that more people are working remotely in hybrid you don't have as much organic access to the people you work with. You do have to make more of an effort to make your accomplishment it's visible. To build a relationship, all of that has to be so much more intentional.

But managing up done well is building a relationship with the people that have more positional power than you. Primarily that's going to be your manager, but today a lot more people besides your direct boss control your success and your future at work. And so, just as you were saying, it is more important than ever because work is more complex than ever, and now that more people are working remotely in hybrid you don't have as much organic access to the people you work with. You do have to make more of an effort to make your accomplishment it's visible. To build a relationship, all of that has to be so much more intentional.

Well, as I mentioned, you're a professor of human behavior at Hunter College. You're also a career coach and a lot of your book is based on real life interactions, really conversations counseling that you've done with some of your clients. What are the themes that emerged when it came to the modern workplace? Because it kind of sounds simple, but it's not simple. It's pretty complex.

Well, as I mentioned, you're a professor of human behavior at Hunter College. You're also a career coach and a lot of your book is based on real life interactions, really conversations counseling that you've done with some of your clients. What are the themes that emerged when it came to the modern workplace? Because it kind of sounds simple, but it's not simple. It's pretty complex.

Stuff, that's right, that's right. I think one of the key themes is realizing that you work with people that are different than you. And I know that sounds very obvious, but so many of us were in our own bubbles and we take things personally when in actuality, what we think are difficult behaviors are actually just a result of different styles.

Stuff, that's right, that's right. I think one of the key themes is realizing that you work with people that are different than you. And I know that sounds very obvious, but so many of us were in our own bubbles and we take things personally when in actuality, what we think are difficult behaviors are actually just a result of different styles.

What do we say, don't take it personally?

What do we say, don't take it personally?

Okay, Carol, But yeah, it's so funny because we think about segments. Let's be real, right, be real. We think about it and there is a performance aspect, an entertainment aspect, and formative aspect. But you want it to be an interesting and engaging conversation. Could be a killer story, but if you don't have the right voice, it's just not going to go well. And so right, it's not show friends, it's show business. Has some smart individual once said to me this idea is you don't just have on people you know that maybe you like or whatever. You want to have an engaging conversation, because that's part of the business we are in.

Okay, Carol, But yeah, it's so funny because we think about segments. Let's be real, right, be real. We think about it and there is a performance aspect, an entertainment aspect, and formative aspect. But you want it to be an interesting and engaging conversation. Could be a killer story, but if you don't have the right voice, it's just not going to go well. And so right, it's not show friends, it's show business. Has some smart individual once said to me this idea is you don't just have on people you know that maybe you like or whatever. You want to have an engaging conversation, because that's part of the business we are in.

Well, that's where some of the psychology comes in, right.

Well, that's where some of the psychology comes in, right.

You have to open up too much, talk about going back.

You have to open up too much, talk about going back.

You have to understand people's pressures, desires, and you have to frame your message around that, not because you're trying to be someone you're not, but so they connect with it and they hear you and they're interested. And so that's part of how do how do we make it appealing to what people really want? And especially in the workplace, that's all the more important.

You have to understand people's pressures, desires, and you have to frame your message around that, not because you're trying to be someone you're not, but so they connect with it and they hear you and they're interested. And so that's part of how do how do we make it appealing to what people really want? And especially in the workplace, that's all the more important.

And the other thing though, I wanted to pick up is when you said that the idea of don't take it personally, and this is another thing you and I talk about. It's like, well, wait a minute, I'm a person and I've got feelings. So when someone says like, well, don't take it personally, it's like, how are we supposed to think about that?

And the other thing though, I wanted to pick up is when you said that the idea of don't take it personally, and this is another thing you and I talk about. It's like, well, wait a minute, I'm a person and I've got feelings. So when someone says like, well, don't take it personally, it's like, how are we supposed to think about that?

Yes? And when I mean bad station with you, yes, And I'm sure you both in just before we were recording, you were saying how fast everything is changing, and so I'm sure, you're on the receiving end of emails that are just one word okay, got it. And for some people they may take that personally and say, does this person hate me? Am I getting fired today? Why did they use a period instead of an exclamation point? And what I'm saying is that some people that may be their default communication style, where you may lead with a lot of context and pleasantries and.

Yes? And when I mean bad station with you, yes, And I'm sure you both in just before we were recording, you were saying how fast everything is changing, and so I'm sure, you're on the receiving end of emails that are just one word okay, got it. And for some people they may take that personally and say, does this person hate me? Am I getting fired today? Why did they use a period instead of an exclamation point? And what I'm saying is that some people that may be their default communication style, where you may lead with a lot of context and pleasantries and.

How are you doing?

How are you doing?

And you want to know about their personal life, and other people are straight to the point. They want the bullets, they want the bottom line. And when you know that you understand where their behavior is coming from, you're much less likely to go to that worst place.

And you want to know about their personal life, and other people are straight to the point. They want the bullets, they want the bottom line. And when you know that you understand where their behavior is coming from, you're much less likely to go to that worst place.

Is it possible, well to understand each other if you're not in the office physically together.

Is it possible, well to understand each other if you're not in the office physically together.

I think it is. I think it is. In the first chapter of the book, I talk about what's called the Alignment conversation. The book is actually based around these ten conversations for managing up to give people methodology to follow, and in there I talk about being observant. Yes, you can ask questions about someone's preferences, but you also have to have your eyes open. How is someone communicating even digitally? Are they communicating and sending you things via Slack or text, for example, who's speaking up first in meetings, who's turning their camera on or not unmuting themselves. All of those are cues about the power dynamics and what's going on.

I think it is. I think it is. In the first chapter of the book, I talk about what's called the Alignment conversation. The book is actually based around these ten conversations for managing up to give people methodology to follow, and in there I talk about being observant. Yes, you can ask questions about someone's preferences, but you also have to have your eyes open. How is someone communicating even digitally? Are they communicating and sending you things via Slack or text, for example, who's speaking up first in meetings, who's turning their camera on or not unmuting themselves. All of those are cues about the power dynamics and what's going on.

So what would you say, like, I put down the lie forgetting to mute themselves. I always am and they're like, I'm on the subway platform. Could you ah, like how to ask for a raise, how to say no to your boss, how to ask for promotion or an opportunity?

So what would you say, like, I put down the lie forgetting to mute themselves. I always am and they're like, I'm on the subway platform. Could you ah, like how to ask for a raise, how to say no to your boss, how to ask for promotion or an opportunity?

Are there rules around?

Are there rules around?

And obviously every relationship, even in the workplace, is going to be specific and different. But I wonder if there's some thoughts on that.

And obviously every relationship, even in the workplace, is going to be specific and different. But I wonder if there's some thoughts on that.

Definitely thoughts on that. I would say rules, not exactly, because every workplace is different.

Definitely thoughts on that. I would say rules, not exactly, because every workplace is different.

As part of managing up, though, part.

As part of managing up, though, part.

Of managing up exactly is having organizational awareness to understand the environment that you're operating in the workplace culture, but also who you're dealing with. Let's talk about saying no, for example, because today you can't just outright say no. There is an expectation that you will be a team player and everyone's being expected to take on more, so you can't just say I'm not doing that. And in the book, I talk about a few approaches. One of my favorites I call the trade off approach, and that's where you say, okay, I hear X is important in order to do why, which you've also shared you want me to work on. That means we're going to have to temporarily slow down on something else. Are you comfortable with that? Or what would you like us to d priority ties? And so with that, you're framing the conversation, you're framing the decision, but at the end of the day, you're putting the authority back in the other person's stand to make a call.

Of managing up exactly is having organizational awareness to understand the environment that you're operating in the workplace culture, but also who you're dealing with. Let's talk about saying no, for example, because today you can't just outright say no. There is an expectation that you will be a team player and everyone's being expected to take on more, so you can't just say I'm not doing that. And in the book, I talk about a few approaches. One of my favorites I call the trade off approach, and that's where you say, okay, I hear X is important in order to do why, which you've also shared you want me to work on. That means we're going to have to temporarily slow down on something else. Are you comfortable with that? Or what would you like us to d priority ties? And so with that, you're framing the conversation, you're framing the decision, but at the end of the day, you're putting the authority back in the other person's stand to make a call.

You know, there's a section in the book called Expose Yourself, and I know it's a little tongue in cheek, but what essentially you talk about is is put get around people that you're not typically around. And there's something that sticks out here which I love. Take the elevator instead of the stairs, or grab a coffee from a different spot if it means you're more likely to bump into someone new or influential. You're here with us. You probably noticed the elevators only go to the sixth floor. That's by design. Yeah, it's to make sure that you are around everybody in the organization work. It totally works. I see people.

You know, there's a section in the book called Expose Yourself, and I know it's a little tongue in cheek, but what essentially you talk about is is put get around people that you're not typically around. And there's something that sticks out here which I love. Take the elevator instead of the stairs, or grab a coffee from a different spot if it means you're more likely to bump into someone new or influential. You're here with us. You probably noticed the elevators only go to the sixth floor. That's by design. Yeah, it's to make sure that you are around everybody in the organization work. It totally works. I see people.

From all over things.

From all over things.

Yeah, but it also raises the question that I have if you, you know, you want to open yourself up to people at work, this idea of you know, quote unquote bringing your whole self to work, right. Like, I saw a little bit of an eye roll from you just now when I said that, do you really want to do that? In this day and age. Work is work, it's not. It's not you're not hanging out with your friends.

Yeah, but it also raises the question that I have if you, you know, you want to open yourself up to people at work, this idea of you know, quote unquote bringing your whole self to work, right. Like, I saw a little bit of an eye roll from you just now when I said that, do you really want to do that? In this day and age. Work is work, it's not. It's not you're not hanging out with your friends.

I understand. I think there's a difference between bringing your whole self and being true to who your professional self is. Your whole self is who you are at home and all of your weaknesses and quirks, and there still needs to be an air of professionalism that comes along with it. So I don't really believe in this idea of authenticity at work because we all have to maintain this air of professionalism. So but yeah, it exposing yourself is really about how do you put yourself in the path of new people that you could meet. Because even though we're talking about managing up, yes, it's about your boss. Do not make your boss your single point of failure.

I understand. I think there's a difference between bringing your whole self and being true to who your professional self is. Your whole self is who you are at home and all of your weaknesses and quirks, and there still needs to be an air of professionalism that comes along with it. So I don't really believe in this idea of authenticity at work because we all have to maintain this air of professionalism. So but yeah, it exposing yourself is really about how do you put yourself in the path of new people that you could meet. Because even though we're talking about managing up, yes, it's about your boss. Do not make your boss your single point of failure.

Yeah, that's really interesting. So what you say managing up, it's really managing ups. Like there's most people that like, there's multiple people that you should be having conversations with. That's right.

Yeah, that's really interesting. So what you say managing up, it's really managing ups. Like there's most people that like, there's multiple people that you should be having conversations with. That's right.

Oh, absolutely, whether that's your skip level manager, your boss's boss for example, your boss as peers, other powerful colleagues.

Oh, absolutely, whether that's your skip level manager, your boss's boss for example, your boss as peers, other powerful colleagues.

That can be tricky in some situations a ken, because then it looks like you're sort of going over the head of your immediate manager.

That can be tricky in some situations a ken, because then it looks like you're sort of going over the head of your immediate manager.

Yes, well, that's not the first thing you want to jump to, and that's why the book is based around these conversations, because they build on trust and rapport. But when it does come to scheduling a skip level, which is what we're talking about, you don't want to you want to bring your boss in the mix. This is something you could bring to your one on one and say, I would love to gain a better understanding of the organization, the priorities that we're working on. I think a great way to do that would be meeting with your manager. Would you be comfortable with me doing that? And if you think that might be too much of a risk, you can also say, how about would you be open to your boss coming to our next team meeting or all hands for example, so it doesn't feel like you're doing a end run around them.

Yes, well, that's not the first thing you want to jump to, and that's why the book is based around these conversations, because they build on trust and rapport. But when it does come to scheduling a skip level, which is what we're talking about, you don't want to you want to bring your boss in the mix. This is something you could bring to your one on one and say, I would love to gain a better understanding of the organization, the priorities that we're working on. I think a great way to do that would be meeting with your manager. Would you be comfortable with me doing that? And if you think that might be too much of a risk, you can also say, how about would you be open to your boss coming to our next team meeting or all hands for example, so it doesn't feel like you're doing a end run around them.

You do have a chapter about the money conversation, So what's your advice. You just got about a minute left here.

You do have a chapter about the money conversation, So what's your advice. You just got about a minute left here.

And show me the money which goes the money to make that's bring it up because most people like when they go in for a conversation it's either new opportunities and or you know, money or a combination above.

And show me the money which goes the money to make that's bring it up because most people like when they go in for a conversation it's either new opportunities and or you know, money or a combination above.

Okay, yeah, two quick things. Don't just focus on what you've done in the past. Focus on the value can provide going forward, because your boss is going to have to make a compelling case up their chain of command why they should pay you more. And then second is when you are asking for more money, frame it in terms of fairness. Use language like I want to make sure my compensation matches the level that I'm performing at. So it doesn't feel like, well, I just deserve this or I feel like I deserve this. It sounds more like it's coming from a place of equity and just writing the skills.

Okay, yeah, two quick things. Don't just focus on what you've done in the past. Focus on the value can provide going forward, because your boss is going to have to make a compelling case up their chain of command why they should pay you more. And then second is when you are asking for more money, frame it in terms of fairness. Use language like I want to make sure my compensation matches the level that I'm performing at. So it doesn't feel like, well, I just deserve this or I feel like I deserve this. It sounds more like it's coming from a place of equity and just writing the skills.

Do most bosses like talking with their employees.

Do most bosses like talking with their employees.

It's you know, TVD, TVD. But what I have found is that you know, I think I think there's a lot of boss bashing out there, and I think most bosses are trying their best. They are imperfect people and imperfect situations, and they really want to do their best. I've had a lot of bosses give this book to their team, so you know, I hope we're seeing a change for the better.

It's you know, TVD, TVD. But what I have found is that you know, I think I think there's a lot of boss bashing out there, and I think most bosses are trying their best. They are imperfect people and imperfect situations, and they really want to do their best. I've had a lot of bosses give this book to their team, so you know, I hope we're seeing a change for the better.

And I have to say, like, we're in a pretty cool environment that everything's just open. There are no offices, so you run into people or you're sitting next to like bosses and stuff, so it's kind of out there. It's also a newsroom environment but the whole company, but not every place is like that. And I know when there are doors and stuff and different floors, it can make it a.

And I have to say, like, we're in a pretty cool environment that everything's just open. There are no offices, so you run into people or you're sitting next to like bosses and stuff, so it's kind of out there. It's also a newsroom environment but the whole company, but not every place is like that. And I know when there are doors and stuff and different floors, it can make it a.

Little bit tougher.

Little bit tougher.

This was fun.

This was fun.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for having it. Melodie Wilding. Her new book is Managing Up, How to get what you need from the people in charge, and she's professor of human behavior at Hunter College. Take some notes there.

Thank you for having it. Melodie Wilding. Her new book is Managing Up, How to get what you need from the people in charge, and she's professor of human behavior at Hunter College. Take some notes there.

Oh yeah, Paul, you saw me typing. You think I'm doing?

Oh yeah, Paul, you saw me typing. You think I'm doing?

Do not go anywhere, folks, more to come right here on Business Week.

Do not go anywhere, folks, more to come right here on Business Week.

Well, in just a few years, Mackenzie Scott has given away close to twenty billion dollars to thousands of nonprofits. What a shock the philanthropic community, though, is not just how much she's given away, but how she's done it. Essentially raining money on organizations with quote no strings attached attitude unrestricted giving is what it's called in that world. But how effective has it been? Alisha Smith Arigaga is the vice president of Research at the Center for Effective Philanthropy. It's an organization that uses data to help donors make sure their giving is as effective as possible. Alicia, thanks so much for joining us this afternoon. Do appreciate it. This idea of adding value by giving up control. It's what yield giving. Mackenzie Scott's organization is all about what did you find in your research about whether or not it's working.

Well, in just a few years, Mackenzie Scott has given away close to twenty billion dollars to thousands of nonprofits. What a shock the philanthropic community, though, is not just how much she's given away, but how she's done it. Essentially raining money on organizations with quote no strings attached attitude unrestricted giving is what it's called in that world. But how effective has it been? Alisha Smith Arigaga is the vice president of Research at the Center for Effective Philanthropy. It's an organization that uses data to help donors make sure their giving is as effective as possible. Alicia, thanks so much for joining us this afternoon. Do appreciate it. This idea of adding value by giving up control. It's what yield giving. Mackenzie Scott's organization is all about what did you find in your research about whether or not it's working.

Well.

Well.

Thanks so much for having me today, and we at the Center perfect of Philanthropy have been studying Scott's giving over the last three years and serving organizations that receive funds through Scott's quiet process, which means that you know, organizations would often get a call, you know, inquiring about their finances and leadership, and then they get a follow up call sometime later letting them.

Thanks so much for having me today, and we at the Center perfect of Philanthropy have been studying Scott's giving over the last three years and serving organizations that receive funds through Scott's quiet process, which means that you know, organizations would often get a call, you know, inquiring about their finances and leadership, and then they get a follow up call sometime later letting them.

Know that they received a really large gift, And what we.

Know that they received a really large gift, And what we.

Learned in our research is that these gifts had tremendous impacts not only on the organizations, but on the communities the organization serve, on the leaders the organizations serve, and we also learned that they're you know, is mixed response in the funder community to this kind of giving as.

Learned in our research is that these gifts had tremendous impacts not only on the organizations, but on the communities the organization serve, on the leaders the organizations serve, and we also learned that they're you know, is mixed response in the funder community to this kind of giving as.

Well is of giving based on what you guys are finding out.

Well is of giving based on what you guys are finding out.

I mean, from what we learned, we definitely.

I mean, from what we learned, we definitely.

Found that there are huge positive impacts from this type of giving. One of the things there there are a couple of ways in which this kind of giving is different from what typically happens. You know, it's not just the size of the gifts. Many folks are like, wow, nineteen billion dollars. I don't have nineteen billion dollars. But it wasn't necessarily the amount. But often Scott's gifts were seventy percent of the operating budget on average of an organization, which is really large. They were unrestricted in terms of the amount of time in which they had to be spent, which is very unusual, and then they have few reporting requirements. And so those kinds of characteristics are characteristics that we see much more rarely in grant making, and so we saw some really powerful impacts from those pieces in this data.

Found that there are huge positive impacts from this type of giving. One of the things there there are a couple of ways in which this kind of giving is different from what typically happens. You know, it's not just the size of the gifts. Many folks are like, wow, nineteen billion dollars. I don't have nineteen billion dollars. But it wasn't necessarily the amount. But often Scott's gifts were seventy percent of the operating budget on average of an organization, which is really large. They were unrestricted in terms of the amount of time in which they had to be spent, which is very unusual, and then they have few reporting requirements. And so those kinds of characteristics are characteristics that we see much more rarely in grant making, and so we saw some really powerful impacts from those pieces in this data.

Are there copycats emerging in the best sense of the word because they have seen the way it's working. Are are other individuals organizations starting to do this?

Are there copycats emerging in the best sense of the word because they have seen the way it's working. Are are other individuals organizations starting to do this?

There are so For example, well, just a few months ago, Jeff.

There are so For example, well, just a few months ago, Jeff.

Atwood came out saying that he was really inspired by Mackenzie Scott's giving. He also is part of, you know, a group of folks who have billions to give away, and talked a lot in the Chronicle Philanthropy and other places about how he was so inspired by her giving that he was going to give in the same way.

Atwood came out saying that he was really inspired by Mackenzie Scott's giving. He also is part of, you know, a group of folks who have billions to give away, and talked a lot in the Chronicle Philanthropy and other places about how he was so inspired by her giving that he was going to give in the same way.

We also know that this is the.

We also know that this is the.

Co founder of It's i think a computer programming platform, right stack overflow, So yeah, forgive me, yeah, go.

Co founder of It's i think a computer programming platform, right stack overflow, So yeah, forgive me, yeah, go.

Ahead, yeah, So yeah, he was an individual donor who we saw using a lot of the same strategies. And then there's some foundations as well who have shifted portions of their giving to giving in this way. You know, would love to see more of us, since the data shows that it works, But we are seeing some trickles of folks who are doodling this similar kind of giving.

Ahead, yeah, So yeah, he was an individual donor who we saw using a lot of the same strategies. And then there's some foundations as well who have shifted portions of their giving to giving in this way. You know, would love to see more of us, since the data shows that it works, But we are seeing some trickles of folks who are doodling this similar kind of giving.

You know, I have to say, before I came to Bloomberg and when I was an undergrad, I did some donor and development work for a major business school. And it's interesting that I think when a lot of people like to donate, sometimes it's a major capital project, you know, an addition to a school or so on and so forth. But a lot of times, I feel like it's safe to say that I think donors like to be very involved in where the money's going, and there is a lot of strings attached. I'm not saying good or bad, it's just sometimes the way it goes. The majority of donations, right, philanthropy is often with guidelines with strings attached.

You know, I have to say, before I came to Bloomberg and when I was an undergrad, I did some donor and development work for a major business school. And it's interesting that I think when a lot of people like to donate, sometimes it's a major capital project, you know, an addition to a school or so on and so forth. But a lot of times, I feel like it's safe to say that I think donors like to be very involved in where the money's going, and there is a lot of strings attached. I'm not saying good or bad, it's just sometimes the way it goes. The majority of donations, right, philanthropy is often with guidelines with strings attached.

Yes, yes, that is correct.

Yes, yes, that is correct.

Does some of those, but do some of those strings?

Does some of those, but do some of those strings?

Also?

Also?

What's good about it is it's transparency and you make sure the money is actually spent towards something and it isn't somehow potentially wasted away and not necessarily going.

What's good about it is it's transparency and you make sure the money is actually spent towards something and it isn't somehow potentially wasted away and not necessarily going.

Towards the goal.

Towards the goal.

So is that part of also having those strings attached, that you really do know where the money goes?

So is that part of also having those strings attached, that you really do know where the money goes?

Well, I think the really powerful thing here is that even though there weren't necessarily strings attached on the back end, like Scott was, pretty clear, and for the most part.

Well, I think the really powerful thing here is that even though there weren't necessarily strings attached on the back end, like Scott was, pretty clear, and for the most part.

For most of these folks, these were one time gifts.

For most of these folks, these were one time gifts.

Yeah, what they did do was pretty intensive vetting of organizations, Right, So they're looking finances, they're looking at leadership, they're looking at strategic plans, and they're choosing organizations on the front end. So the donor's done a lot of work on the front end in terms of, you know, deciding where the funds go, and so then if you really trust where you've made that investment, there's less of a need to then at the back end, you know, trying to determine, well, did you know X percent of what I was funding go to Y or Z. But you know, really doing that upfront work, I think is what's really powerful and unique about the way that Scott gave and what we see in the data is that organizations were really great stories of the funds and did all sorts of innovative things as well.

Yeah, what they did do was pretty intensive vetting of organizations, Right, So they're looking finances, they're looking at leadership, they're looking at strategic plans, and they're choosing organizations on the front end. So the donor's done a lot of work on the front end in terms of, you know, deciding where the funds go, and so then if you really trust where you've made that investment, there's less of a need to then at the back end, you know, trying to determine, well, did you know X percent of what I was funding go to Y or Z. But you know, really doing that upfront work, I think is what's really powerful and unique about the way that Scott gave and what we see in the data is that organizations were really great stories of the funds and did all sorts of innovative things as well.

You know, you shared with our producer Paul Brennan that the backlash in terms of her how Mackenzie Scott donated money, that there was a backlash from foundation leaders about her approach. What specifically did they do, Is it just vocal verbal or what was it. What was that backlash?

You know, you shared with our producer Paul Brennan that the backlash in terms of her how Mackenzie Scott donated money, that there was a backlash from foundation leaders about her approach. What specifically did they do, Is it just vocal verbal or what was it. What was that backlash?

Well, you know, there wasn't necessarily backlash, But what we found in our data is that there's mixed you know, we asked funders and we surveyed a national sample of funders who do over five million dollars in grant making, if you you know, and ask them if they look at Mackenzie Scott's giving, how has.

Well, you know, there wasn't necessarily backlash, But what we found in our data is that there's mixed you know, we asked funders and we surveyed a national sample of funders who do over five million dollars in grant making, if you you know, and ask them if they look at Mackenzie Scott's giving, how has.

It influenced their own giving?

It influenced their own giving?

And what we see is that, you know, while folks funders reported a large majority of them that they see the way that she gives is impactful to the organization she gives to, when they're then asked if they would do that same kind of giving in their organization, we see much more mixed reactions.

And what we see is that, you know, while folks funders reported a large majority of them that they see the way that she gives is impactful to the organization she gives to, when they're then asked if they would do that same kind of giving in their organization, we see much more mixed reactions.

And we know, you know, what.

And we know, you know, what.

We saw in interviews from this is that it's due to all sorts of reasons, right, whether that's some sorts of constraints from the board or constraints of the organization. There are other folks who just don't choose to give that way, and so the number of foundations who've adopted this approach is much more varied.

We saw in interviews from this is that it's due to all sorts of reasons, right, whether that's some sorts of constraints from the board or constraints of the organization. There are other folks who just don't choose to give that way, and so the number of foundations who've adopted this approach is much more varied.

Overall.

Overall.

Lisha're gonna have to leave it there. Alicia Smith Jaga is the vice president of Research at the Center for Effective Philanthropy. Check out the work that the organization has done. They use data to help donors make sure their giving is as effective as possible. She joins us from Austin, Texas.

Lisha're gonna have to leave it there. Alicia Smith Jaga is the vice president of Research at the Center for Effective Philanthropy. Check out the work that the organization has done. They use data to help donors make sure their giving is as effective as possible. She joins us from Austin, Texas.