My name is Jacquees Thomas and you're listening to Black Lit, a podcast about black literature and the stories behind the storytellers. There is so much we can take away from this exploration of Octavia Butler's work. At every turn, her narratives compel us to reflect, question, and reimagine the world as it is. With every interview, a new depth of insight into her psyche is revealed. We've only cracked the surface, and there is so much more to discover. The complexities of her life, the choices that she made to dedicate her existence to the craft of writing during a time where she didn't have strength in numbers. She was one of one. As we transform our experiences, observations and perspectives, and to the stories for tomorrow, inevitable question surface. Butler's inquiries into the human condition opens pathways into understanding the mind, envisioning the future, and unraveling how our past has shaped our bloodlines and family structures. She wrote, all that you touch, you change, all that you change changes you. The ony lasting truth is change. God is change. The power of influence and the exploration of identity themes that resonate throughout her entire Over her work prompts endless questions and ideas, with each page and interview revealing new discoveries. Her writings beckon us to lose ourselves and then rediscover paths we never conceived, only to lose ourselves once more and the richness of our imagination. These layers are not merely for enjoyment, but provide a textured ground to examine in seeds of thought, seeds in which I can only hope will continue to be planted for the next generation. Over the last few years, the word legacy has occupied my mind with a new significance. Legacy is the opportunity to leave behind something of value, something that not only inspires, but also enriches lives long after we are gone. Butler's legacy indoors. Her works are now a part of educational curricula, discussions on podcasts, and are being adapted for television and theater. Kindred, her popular narrative and the very first of her works to be adapted to television, tells the story of an American bloodline and the horrors that occurred in order for the lead character and her family to exist. Kindred asks readers to examine the truth of our history as a country, and it's not a soft swallow, but a harsh reality that Butler doesn't shy away from the importance of knowing and the sensitivities around accepting what happened. To confront what is, Butler challenges us to confront these truths head on, not as passive observers, but as active participants seeking understanding. In the wake of a divisive election, the harrowing tooths of our past and present intertwine like persistent weeds at our roots, deep beneath the soil. Butler anticipated with somber pragmatism, but no less hope. Hope remains a consistent anchor to cling on to a beacon amids the turmoil. As we stand here thirty years from Butler's introduction to Powerable of the Sower, one must wonder how she would interpret the current political climate, societal divisions, and the environmental degradation. This quote from Eddie s claud Junior stood out to me this week.

My name is Jacquees Thomas and you're listening to Black Lit, a podcast about black literature and the stories behind the storytellers. There is so much we can take away from this exploration of Octavia Butler's work. At every turn, her narratives compel us to reflect, question, and reimagine the world as it is. With every interview, a new depth of insight into her psyche is revealed. We've only cracked the surface, and there is so much more to discover. The complexities of her life, the choices that she made to dedicate her existence to the craft of writing during a time where she didn't have strength in numbers. She was one of one. As we transform our experiences, observations and perspectives, and to the stories for tomorrow, inevitable question surface. Butler's inquiries into the human condition opens pathways into understanding the mind, envisioning the future, and unraveling how our past has shaped our bloodlines and family structures. She wrote, all that you touch, you change, all that you change changes you. The ony lasting truth is change. God is change. The power of influence and the exploration of identity themes that resonate throughout her entire Over her work prompts endless questions and ideas, with each page and interview revealing new discoveries. Her writings beckon us to lose ourselves and then rediscover paths we never conceived, only to lose ourselves once more and the richness of our imagination. These layers are not merely for enjoyment, but provide a textured ground to examine in seeds of thought, seeds in which I can only hope will continue to be planted for the next generation. Over the last few years, the word legacy has occupied my mind with a new significance. Legacy is the opportunity to leave behind something of value, something that not only inspires, but also enriches lives long after we are gone. Butler's legacy indoors. Her works are now a part of educational curricula, discussions on podcasts, and are being adapted for television and theater. Kindred, her popular narrative and the very first of her works to be adapted to television, tells the story of an American bloodline and the horrors that occurred in order for the lead character and her family to exist. Kindred asks readers to examine the truth of our history as a country, and it's not a soft swallow, but a harsh reality that Butler doesn't shy away from the importance of knowing and the sensitivities around accepting what happened. To confront what is, Butler challenges us to confront these truths head on, not as passive observers, but as active participants seeking understanding. In the wake of a divisive election, the harrowing tooths of our past and present intertwine like persistent weeds at our roots, deep beneath the soil. Butler anticipated with somber pragmatism, but no less hope. Hope remains a consistent anchor to cling on to a beacon amids the turmoil. As we stand here thirty years from Butler's introduction to Powerable of the Sower, one must wonder how she would interpret the current political climate, societal divisions, and the environmental degradation. This quote from Eddie s claud Junior stood out to me this week.

When we imagine the world as it could be and use that imagination to critique the world as it is, all of us have that capacity.

When we imagine the world as it could be and use that imagination to critique the world as it is, all of us have that capacity.

The capacity for a moral imagination that sees well beyond the opacity of our conditions, because if we can envision an alternative world, an alternative future, surely we can create it. Brandon Jacob Jenkins, the creator of the Kindred series, joins us in a conversation later, but here are a few of his thoughts on the power of our imaginations and a necessity to have the freedom to imagine.

The capacity for a moral imagination that sees well beyond the opacity of our conditions, because if we can envision an alternative world, an alternative future, surely we can create it. Brandon Jacob Jenkins, the creator of the Kindred series, joins us in a conversation later, but here are a few of his thoughts on the power of our imaginations and a necessity to have the freedom to imagine.

The Black imagination is profound, you know, and we have to have unfettered access to imagine whatever we want, how we want. And it's the obligation of the creative to constantly celebrate that and honor that and defend that. Because if someone's out there not letting your life and your history and your context on this planet get into that space of viewership and imagining, something's off.

The Black imagination is profound, you know, and we have to have unfettered access to imagine whatever we want, how we want. And it's the obligation of the creative to constantly celebrate that and honor that and defend that. Because if someone's out there not letting your life and your history and your context on this planet get into that space of viewership and imagining, something's off.

Beware Octavia Butler Champion science fiction are for futurism during her era, but now the fire is lit amongst mini writers, creatives and citizens. So what are you thinking, What observations and questions are emerging in your own self reflection, because that's where it starts. What alternative world can you create despite the pervasive uncertainty? What will be your legacy? How will you use your voice, your pen, your action to shape the world beyond what it is.

Beware Octavia Butler Champion science fiction are for futurism during her era, but now the fire is lit amongst mini writers, creatives and citizens. So what are you thinking, What observations and questions are emerging in your own self reflection, because that's where it starts. What alternative world can you create despite the pervasive uncertainty? What will be your legacy? How will you use your voice, your pen, your action to shape the world beyond what it is.

Or what was.

Or what was.

Octavia's predictions were based on patterns, history repeating itself, humans repeating themselves and falling over the same lines in the sand, and then drawing it all over again, just to fall all over again. What will be here?

Octavia's predictions were based on patterns, history repeating itself, humans repeating themselves and falling over the same lines in the sand, and then drawing it all over again, just to fall all over again. What will be here?

Like as he.

Like as he.

We can be better with human beings than that. But it's so tempting to be greedy and have power and keep it from other people.

We can be better with human beings than that. But it's so tempting to be greedy and have power and keep it from other people.

In America, it is time to draw something new through the lens of a moral imagination, with the depth of knowing that everything we touch changes, and the need to heal at the root is dire, so that we can grow past our stunted patterns.

In America, it is time to draw something new through the lens of a moral imagination, with the depth of knowing that everything we touch changes, and the need to heal at the root is dire, so that we can grow past our stunted patterns.

Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a fool is to be led by the opportunists who control the fool. To be led by a law is to ask to be lied to.

Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led by a fool is to be led by the opportunists who control the fool. To be led by a law is to ask to be lied to.

But it's impossible to ignore the irony of the time, the date, the topic, the year, and an exact journal entry from Lauren Olamina on Wednesday, November sixth, twenty twenty four and Powerable of the Sewer, in which she writes about the President elect and her concern about what they have ahead of them, She writes, Dad decided not to vote for Donner. After all, he didn't vote for anyone. He said, politicians turn his stomach. During this election, millions of people decided not to vote, not to show up at all. Coincidence, perhaps having read Powerable of the Sewer and all of the things that were essentially predicted or calculated just from her watching NPR and just understanding the possible outcomes and in the state of the world that we're in today, how do you feel about what she prophesies and how these things have come to be as a writer, as a black man, how does that sit with you?

But it's impossible to ignore the irony of the time, the date, the topic, the year, and an exact journal entry from Lauren Olamina on Wednesday, November sixth, twenty twenty four and Powerable of the Sewer, in which she writes about the President elect and her concern about what they have ahead of them, She writes, Dad decided not to vote for Donner. After all, he didn't vote for anyone. He said, politicians turn his stomach. During this election, millions of people decided not to vote, not to show up at all. Coincidence, perhaps having read Powerable of the Sewer and all of the things that were essentially predicted or calculated just from her watching NPR and just understanding the possible outcomes and in the state of the world that we're in today, how do you feel about what she prophesies and how these things have come to be as a writer, as a black man, how does that sit with you?

Who? I mean? I think the important thing, you know, her great message inside of that was about adaptability and community and a deep understanding that change is the constant, and you know, how do we imagine our way out of the world that we've imagined our way into. That's really that's really the clearing call. I think. You know, we're talking just days after the election, and people were still feeling all kinds of feelings. But I know those feelings are going to be different feelings tomorrow and the day after that. And the thing to do is to stay present and to locate one's dignity, locate one's worldview, and always articulate what you feel and what you know. And you keep history of life through the stories you tell. You keep your sense of self and your sense of community live through the stories you tell. So that's what I kind of take away from her whole project. She didn't have to write these books, you know, and we're all very grateful she did write these books. And I think it's up to us to kind of take as an example for ourselves why she chose to write these books. You know, that's what she decided to spend her life on this planet doing. And how do we be inspired by that of human action? That's sort of my That's where my mind takes me. That's where i'm today, That's where I'm staying. On Friday of Ember eighth, twenty twenty four, you.

Who? I mean? I think the important thing, you know, her great message inside of that was about adaptability and community and a deep understanding that change is the constant, and you know, how do we imagine our way out of the world that we've imagined our way into. That's really that's really the clearing call. I think. You know, we're talking just days after the election, and people were still feeling all kinds of feelings. But I know those feelings are going to be different feelings tomorrow and the day after that. And the thing to do is to stay present and to locate one's dignity, locate one's worldview, and always articulate what you feel and what you know. And you keep history of life through the stories you tell. You keep your sense of self and your sense of community live through the stories you tell. So that's what I kind of take away from her whole project. She didn't have to write these books, you know, and we're all very grateful she did write these books. And I think it's up to us to kind of take as an example for ourselves why she chose to write these books. You know, that's what she decided to spend her life on this planet doing. And how do we be inspired by that of human action? That's sort of my That's where my mind takes me. That's where i'm today, That's where I'm staying. On Friday of Ember eighth, twenty twenty four, you.

Are now listening to black Lit black List.

Are now listening to black Lit black List.

Well, the thing about Kindred that was very important was it was the kind of watershed book for her. It was sort of you know, I think if you take the kind of complete body of work of many great artists, there's always like a book that feels like a turning point where nothing else could have happened unless this book had happened. And I think that Kindred was that for her, like I think at some ways she was born as a writer through the writing of that book. And you know, she would say, I, since we come rather close with Merrily Hypetz, who is her great champion and her agent and currently her you know, Elery executor, and has really done incredible a lot of work to keep Octavia in the imaginary and keep her alive and keep her legacy alive, merely told me that she would say to to Octavia, you know, you really should write a memoir. And Octavia say, I've already written a memoir. It's Kindred, and that there was something about that book that was very personal, and that was that was a book of a young person trying to make sense of what they cared about and trying to figure out the themes that would motivate them and carry them through the rest of their body of work. And when I began to sort of look at it through that lands, you know, I was a teacher and I teach write. I haven't teaching writing about for over a decade. You know, you do see in young writers, you know, you see what them you see they're actively wrestling with in those early works, and I really let that what I see her doing is actually trying to find the confidence to be a black female writer.

Well, the thing about Kindred that was very important was it was the kind of watershed book for her. It was sort of you know, I think if you take the kind of complete body of work of many great artists, there's always like a book that feels like a turning point where nothing else could have happened unless this book had happened. And I think that Kindred was that for her, like I think at some ways she was born as a writer through the writing of that book. And you know, she would say, I, since we come rather close with Merrily Hypetz, who is her great champion and her agent and currently her you know, Elery executor, and has really done incredible a lot of work to keep Octavia in the imaginary and keep her alive and keep her legacy alive, merely told me that she would say to to Octavia, you know, you really should write a memoir. And Octavia say, I've already written a memoir. It's Kindred, and that there was something about that book that was very personal, and that was that was a book of a young person trying to make sense of what they cared about and trying to figure out the themes that would motivate them and carry them through the rest of their body of work. And when I began to sort of look at it through that lands, you know, I was a teacher and I teach write. I haven't teaching writing about for over a decade. You know, you do see in young writers, you know, you see what them you see they're actively wrestling with in those early works, and I really let that what I see her doing is actually trying to find the confidence to be a black female writer.

You know.

You know.

I think it's no mistake that it's about you know, I always said, the art of that book is she's the black female writer married to a white male writer who's very successful. But in the end, the book that's in your hands, it's her book techniquey right, that it's about a woman claiming an identity as an author and an artist and a person through this strange traumatic experience that's part imagined, part reality, part historical, market temporary, you know. And that was really that was really fascinating, and I also was really moved to learn more about you know, she It's hard for people to understand now, but like she was a real researcher at a time when research was not easy, and she was not affiliated with the university, she was not an academic, you know, and she really was so such an autodidact and so self motivated that she paid her she paid for a greathound bus that took her all the way across the country to do research on this book at a time when you know, we don't understand how lucky we are living or be living in an era that is dedicated to the moralization of the American chattel slavery and like the memory of it. But at that time, which was you know, right around the country celebration of it's like bi centennial, you know, nobody was out here caring about this stuff in a significant way, writing about it, memorializing, theorizing, historicizing it. You know, that was We're looking at the very beginnings of the birth of like African American studies as we understand it a lot of ways, you know. And so for her to like decide she's gonna write this book, pay her way on a greyhound, be on that bus for however many days, to go to like basically where I grew up, you know, Maryland, Eastern Shore, DC, and look at these crumbling plantations and I have government funding, you know, and try to piece together enough sense memory and reality to kind of go into herself and tell this story is a profound undertaking with no Internet, no nothing, you know, it's ridiculous. And Merrily also told me that all through her career she was obsessed with she would like record things on her like on like tailor and like cassette tapes, and she would make these, especially she make podcasts for herself and she's like audible audibles, yes, by herself. She would make them, you know, and she would just she just had a methodology of bringing that knowledge to her and synthesizing that knowledge, and her work is proof of how you know, that work yields more than just the knowledge itself. In some ways, people argue she brings she was a prophet in many, many of these books, but she was definitely making these interesting arguments through fiction about thinks like genetics, epi genetics, like providence of racial you know, racial like interracial lisms and forms. You know, She's doing all this stuff in an imaginative way that now, of course we have entire shells of scholarship kind of talking through the reality of you know. So that was really just inspiring that if you really just dig down into your calling and you take the work seriously and you just get what you need at whatever the cost, there's real yield there.

I think it's no mistake that it's about you know, I always said, the art of that book is she's the black female writer married to a white male writer who's very successful. But in the end, the book that's in your hands, it's her book techniquey right, that it's about a woman claiming an identity as an author and an artist and a person through this strange traumatic experience that's part imagined, part reality, part historical, market temporary, you know. And that was really that was really fascinating, and I also was really moved to learn more about you know, she It's hard for people to understand now, but like she was a real researcher at a time when research was not easy, and she was not affiliated with the university, she was not an academic, you know, and she really was so such an autodidact and so self motivated that she paid her she paid for a greathound bus that took her all the way across the country to do research on this book at a time when you know, we don't understand how lucky we are living or be living in an era that is dedicated to the moralization of the American chattel slavery and like the memory of it. But at that time, which was you know, right around the country celebration of it's like bi centennial, you know, nobody was out here caring about this stuff in a significant way, writing about it, memorializing, theorizing, historicizing it. You know, that was We're looking at the very beginnings of the birth of like African American studies as we understand it a lot of ways, you know. And so for her to like decide she's gonna write this book, pay her way on a greyhound, be on that bus for however many days, to go to like basically where I grew up, you know, Maryland, Eastern Shore, DC, and look at these crumbling plantations and I have government funding, you know, and try to piece together enough sense memory and reality to kind of go into herself and tell this story is a profound undertaking with no Internet, no nothing, you know, it's ridiculous. And Merrily also told me that all through her career she was obsessed with she would like record things on her like on like tailor and like cassette tapes, and she would make these, especially she make podcasts for herself and she's like audible audibles, yes, by herself. She would make them, you know, and she would just she just had a methodology of bringing that knowledge to her and synthesizing that knowledge, and her work is proof of how you know, that work yields more than just the knowledge itself. In some ways, people argue she brings she was a prophet in many, many of these books, but she was definitely making these interesting arguments through fiction about thinks like genetics, epi genetics, like providence of racial you know, racial like interracial lisms and forms. You know, She's doing all this stuff in an imaginative way that now, of course we have entire shells of scholarship kind of talking through the reality of you know. So that was really just inspiring that if you really just dig down into your calling and you take the work seriously and you just get what you need at whatever the cost, there's real yield there.

One of the things that I tell people who are reading my work critically is that what they bring to it is at least as important to them as what I put into it, and that's true.

One of the things that I tell people who are reading my work critically is that what they bring to it is at least as important to them as what I put into it, and that's true.

Once we sold the show, soeld the idea. At that time, Huntington Library had just received her papers and no one could really get access to them, and honestly, nobody want to access them because she wasn't really in the air. I say, in like twenty when was this mus have been like twenty fourteen, twenty fifth teen around then when we actually sold it, and Merrily was like, listen, you can, I can get you access to this library. So I messedlf out to La and I like went to that library every day, and they had barely organized these things. I mean because she wrote in these scraps of paper.

Once we sold the show, soeld the idea. At that time, Huntington Library had just received her papers and no one could really get access to them, and honestly, nobody want to access them because she wasn't really in the air. I say, in like twenty when was this mus have been like twenty fourteen, twenty fifth teen around then when we actually sold it, and Merrily was like, listen, you can, I can get you access to this library. So I messedlf out to La and I like went to that library every day, and they had barely organized these things. I mean because she wrote in these scraps of paper.

You know.

You know.

That was the beginning of me trying to really get inside her mind, because I felt that was my obligations as an adapter, was to like just know every inch of her intention and every inch of this book. And I read like her her like multiple drafts and like half drafts and falls drafts, and and I was like, man, this woman, really we're not joking around with the body. She was really a deep, deep, deep serious thinker and writer. And I couldn't just comment her with like there was just gonna everything you every thread you pulled, just took you on her whole journey, and I just wanted to know every part of that map. So that was part of my process for the many, many years I was just stating a series.

That was the beginning of me trying to really get inside her mind, because I felt that was my obligations as an adapter, was to like just know every inch of her intention and every inch of this book. And I read like her her like multiple drafts and like half drafts and falls drafts, and and I was like, man, this woman, really we're not joking around with the body. She was really a deep, deep, deep serious thinker and writer. And I couldn't just comment her with like there was just gonna everything you every thread you pulled, just took you on her whole journey, and I just wanted to know every part of that map. So that was part of my process for the many, many years I was just stating a series.

So knowing that it was her essentially her memoir, wanting to make sure that you're capturing her intention of the book. Did that play a role in your character development within the series, because I know there were some changes that were made, but how did you maintain that intention within the changes?

So knowing that it was her essentially her memoir, wanting to make sure that you're capturing her intention of the book. Did that play a role in your character development within the series, because I know there were some changes that were made, but how did you maintain that intention within the changes?

Within the changes? Yeah, I think what I did well, I want to say, I don't think it was I don't think she's being literal about it being her memoir. I think that what she was sort of saying is that she told her emotional story through that. You know, I think it was about trying to first of all, yes, it did, because it was about what I felt in the book. What I wanted to do in the series was to do with the trick of the book, which is that in the end you realize this whole thing is a memoir of an author, But it was about you know, I think she very intentionally wanted to write about a driven black female creative in an industry that in which she was was just gonna be like automatically a weird anomaly. And I also felt like one of the things about Octavia that I loved is that she never you know, my other queen mother is Tony Morrison, which you know, Tony Morrison has this whole origin story of like I went to the library, I read all the children's books on the bottom shelf, and then the next shelf it was Dostoyevsky, and I read all that too, you know. And so her story as a writer was very much and justifiably wrapped up in an exposure to like great literature and the formation inside of herself of what it meant to be a great author of literature. But Octavia's story is very different. Where Octavia read whatever her mom, who was a domestic could bring home from the house that she was cleaning. So she was reading comic books, she was reading manuals, she was reading whatever she could. So she didn't have, I think, a necessary division between high and low literature in her conception of herself, and that she had to someone she was someone who understood the value of watching things that most people would write off as not like disposed, like disposable or not valuable or not meaningful, and so I needed to make I really wanted to make a character who was like, I'm about here to bring digny to the thing that staying so many people I know and look like me, but you're going to write it off as not meaningful enough, and I don't care, because that was what Oh, that's what octavit. She was the only one in her field for so long, she was the only black woman, you know, and that's a lot. That is a lot, and that takes a lot of commitment to stay there, you know. And that felt kind of important to me. And also just looking at how in the drafts that I read and kind of in some ways being able to track the evolution of the finished project and seeing where her mind went and the roads she went down and why she decided to back up out of them versus go down some of them. I was like, Oh, I actually think there's ways to honor this impulse she had in a television form in a way that she couldn't necessary. She knew that she somehow instinctively knew she couldn't actually pull off in a novel that needs to be about two hundred pages, you know. So yeah, that did all kind of all that was definitely in living in me and with me through that whole process. And of course, you know, making TV has other challenges, but everything I did, I tried to do in the grain of what I had come to understand was her thinking and as a creative at that time in her life. One of the often cited kind of aha moments was she was in a class and he was a history class where some students stood up and was like, if I go back in time, I would have killed all these Uncle Tom's and these house slaves, this, that, and the other. And she was going home to a parent who was a domestic, you know, and just that experience of like, wait a minute, you know something that's so poisonous about our history that people don't even acknowledge that the people in these in this history didn't know the future. This is the only world they knew and they were still human beings who had to navigate the reality dating right, you know, as we all are today, you know. And just the profundity of that thought was to me like right, of course, like it's so easy for people to want to judge any story about slavery because all we've received is like a copy of a copy. But if you'd stopped for five seconds and think about these people's lives, they had no reason to believe that this was not going to be the history of humanity forever and ever. So when you have that thought, how does your behavior and your sense of entitlement in your relationship to violence or violence you think you'll do shift or change? You know? That's really the story. That's what's that's the interesting story.

Within the changes? Yeah, I think what I did well, I want to say, I don't think it was I don't think she's being literal about it being her memoir. I think that what she was sort of saying is that she told her emotional story through that. You know, I think it was about trying to first of all, yes, it did, because it was about what I felt in the book. What I wanted to do in the series was to do with the trick of the book, which is that in the end you realize this whole thing is a memoir of an author, But it was about you know, I think she very intentionally wanted to write about a driven black female creative in an industry that in which she was was just gonna be like automatically a weird anomaly. And I also felt like one of the things about Octavia that I loved is that she never you know, my other queen mother is Tony Morrison, which you know, Tony Morrison has this whole origin story of like I went to the library, I read all the children's books on the bottom shelf, and then the next shelf it was Dostoyevsky, and I read all that too, you know. And so her story as a writer was very much and justifiably wrapped up in an exposure to like great literature and the formation inside of herself of what it meant to be a great author of literature. But Octavia's story is very different. Where Octavia read whatever her mom, who was a domestic could bring home from the house that she was cleaning. So she was reading comic books, she was reading manuals, she was reading whatever she could. So she didn't have, I think, a necessary division between high and low literature in her conception of herself, and that she had to someone she was someone who understood the value of watching things that most people would write off as not like disposed, like disposable or not valuable or not meaningful, and so I needed to make I really wanted to make a character who was like, I'm about here to bring digny to the thing that staying so many people I know and look like me, but you're going to write it off as not meaningful enough, and I don't care, because that was what Oh, that's what octavit. She was the only one in her field for so long, she was the only black woman, you know, and that's a lot. That is a lot, and that takes a lot of commitment to stay there, you know. And that felt kind of important to me. And also just looking at how in the drafts that I read and kind of in some ways being able to track the evolution of the finished project and seeing where her mind went and the roads she went down and why she decided to back up out of them versus go down some of them. I was like, Oh, I actually think there's ways to honor this impulse she had in a television form in a way that she couldn't necessary. She knew that she somehow instinctively knew she couldn't actually pull off in a novel that needs to be about two hundred pages, you know. So yeah, that did all kind of all that was definitely in living in me and with me through that whole process. And of course, you know, making TV has other challenges, but everything I did, I tried to do in the grain of what I had come to understand was her thinking and as a creative at that time in her life. One of the often cited kind of aha moments was she was in a class and he was a history class where some students stood up and was like, if I go back in time, I would have killed all these Uncle Tom's and these house slaves, this, that, and the other. And she was going home to a parent who was a domestic, you know, and just that experience of like, wait a minute, you know something that's so poisonous about our history that people don't even acknowledge that the people in these in this history didn't know the future. This is the only world they knew and they were still human beings who had to navigate the reality dating right, you know, as we all are today, you know. And just the profundity of that thought was to me like right, of course, like it's so easy for people to want to judge any story about slavery because all we've received is like a copy of a copy. But if you'd stopped for five seconds and think about these people's lives, they had no reason to believe that this was not going to be the history of humanity forever and ever. So when you have that thought, how does your behavior and your sense of entitlement in your relationship to violence or violence you think you'll do shift or change? You know? That's really the story. That's what's that's the interesting story.

I remember you saying something in an interview once that you know, this idea of binging gives us an opportunity to almost approach it as if it were a book. But can you talk to me about like your approach to time and because I feel like, even in the first eight episodes, we got through a good amount of the book, and I'm so curious, I don't know if you can talk about her if you're so shopping it, if there's potential of it ever being another season.

I remember you saying something in an interview once that you know, this idea of binging gives us an opportunity to almost approach it as if it were a book. But can you talk to me about like your approach to time and because I feel like, even in the first eight episodes, we got through a good amount of the book, and I'm so curious, I don't know if you can talk about her if you're so shopping it, if there's potential of it ever being another season.

I don't know, y'all. It would require a lot of activation, you know. Well, one thing I knew is for a long time I think people were like, why is this stop being made yet? And I think one of the issues was people were trying to make it a movie. And the truth is that like part of the effectiveness of that book that she manages so beautifully and I think you really see her like get better and better at this. Like I think Parable is a great example of this, is you have you know, part of the emotional experience of those books is how much time you spend with these people. You know, it's getting to know the people and feeling how important it is for them to be changing so vividly over time. That's what part of the book is about. If you think about the arc of Missus Whale Margaret Whalen, you know by the end of the book, which we didn't get to a show, but she is a totally different person. And it's also kind of implied that that woman is the reason why Dana's line gets to continue on something right. So, but you can only feel that, you can't feel that in two hours that's not gonna mean nothing to you. If Glenn close to whoever is really mean for like ten minutes and then twenty minutes later she's like old lady and she's blind, Like, it's just gonna feel different. Yeah, So I was so early on, I was like, he has it has to be TV, because the thing about TV, you're constantly having to ask yourself, why would the audience member bring this person back into my living room every week? Because when you're trying to build there's a relationship to characters, You're trying to build familiarity. You know, you think about these these long running shows and it's like you literally feel like you know Aria Stark. But you would not have that same experience if Game of Thrones had been into our movie. You just wouldn't have because about the time you spend with people. And truthfully, yes, and part of also part of what she woul the revolutionary about what she was doing in Kindred was talking about how it's easy to pretend that the worst part about slavery is that people got whipped, But the truth is people's lives were robbed from them. People were trapped, and they're incarcerated. The theft of your time is the crime. And how do you really show that to people unless you give them an experience of orders to live with these people in this world and wake up every day in the same captivity. That's really the that's where the heartbreak is. You know, it's not just the precarity, it's not just the ways that the system is built to contain and demean you. It's the life you lose. It's the social death. That's the phrase Atlanta Passion uses. That's the real crime.

I don't know, y'all. It would require a lot of activation, you know. Well, one thing I knew is for a long time I think people were like, why is this stop being made yet? And I think one of the issues was people were trying to make it a movie. And the truth is that like part of the effectiveness of that book that she manages so beautifully and I think you really see her like get better and better at this. Like I think Parable is a great example of this, is you have you know, part of the emotional experience of those books is how much time you spend with these people. You know, it's getting to know the people and feeling how important it is for them to be changing so vividly over time. That's what part of the book is about. If you think about the arc of Missus Whale Margaret Whalen, you know by the end of the book, which we didn't get to a show, but she is a totally different person. And it's also kind of implied that that woman is the reason why Dana's line gets to continue on something right. So, but you can only feel that, you can't feel that in two hours that's not gonna mean nothing to you. If Glenn close to whoever is really mean for like ten minutes and then twenty minutes later she's like old lady and she's blind, Like, it's just gonna feel different. Yeah, So I was so early on, I was like, he has it has to be TV, because the thing about TV, you're constantly having to ask yourself, why would the audience member bring this person back into my living room every week? Because when you're trying to build there's a relationship to characters, You're trying to build familiarity. You know, you think about these these long running shows and it's like you literally feel like you know Aria Stark. But you would not have that same experience if Game of Thrones had been into our movie. You just wouldn't have because about the time you spend with people. And truthfully, yes, and part of also part of what she woul the revolutionary about what she was doing in Kindred was talking about how it's easy to pretend that the worst part about slavery is that people got whipped, But the truth is people's lives were robbed from them. People were trapped, and they're incarcerated. The theft of your time is the crime. And how do you really show that to people unless you give them an experience of orders to live with these people in this world and wake up every day in the same captivity. That's really the that's where the heartbreak is. You know, it's not just the precarity, it's not just the ways that the system is built to contain and demean you. It's the life you lose. It's the social death. That's the phrase Atlanta Passion uses. That's the real crime.

The sexual violence, it's such a sensitive thing that is a part of that generational trauma. It's a part of all of these things that we essentially sometimes don't want to talk about. Why we don't want to even watch or people are con saying, we don't need another slave movie, we don't need another slave contextual idea. But in so many ways, I'm like, yes, we do, because there's still so many conversations that we are refusing to have and I think that's part of it. And doing it in a series makes the most sense to me because of the sensitivity of it.

The sexual violence, it's such a sensitive thing that is a part of that generational trauma. It's a part of all of these things that we essentially sometimes don't want to talk about. Why we don't want to even watch or people are con saying, we don't need another slave movie, we don't need another slave contextual idea. But in so many ways, I'm like, yes, we do, because there's still so many conversations that we are refusing to have and I think that's part of it. And doing it in a series makes the most sense to me because of the sensitivity of it.

You can't put that in someone's face so immediately.

You can't put that in someone's face so immediately.

I mean you can, but why would you want to if you want to create a dialogue, right, especially when it was the sexual violence that wasn't like one off, it was systemic, it was systeaetic. Yeah, you know, the economy of slavery depended on the sexual violence. The sexual the repeated sexual violation.

I mean you can, but why would you want to if you want to create a dialogue, right, especially when it was the sexual violence that wasn't like one off, it was systemic, it was systeaetic. Yeah, you know, the economy of slavery depended on the sexual violence. The sexual the repeated sexual violation.

And assault of women of black women. That's what it was. And you know, the thing about Kindred quite as it's kept is it's a family store. It's a family drama. When she goes back and she meets those Whalens, she's meeting her actual ancestors. That's the reveal. You know. Margaret Whalen is her great great great grandmother. Tom Whalen is her great great great grandfather, you know. And her life is the product of all kinds of violence. I mean literal. I mean, that's that's Alice's arc, right, That's like, that's the real moral craziness of that book is what Dana realizes she has to do in order to keep herself alive.

And assault of women of black women. That's what it was. And you know, the thing about Kindred quite as it's kept is it's a family store. It's a family drama. When she goes back and she meets those Whalens, she's meeting her actual ancestors. That's the reveal. You know. Margaret Whalen is her great great great grandmother. Tom Whalen is her great great great grandfather, you know. And her life is the product of all kinds of violence. I mean literal. I mean, that's that's Alice's arc, right, That's like, that's the real moral craziness of that book is what Dana realizes she has to do in order to keep herself alive.

Man, I mean, it's a heavy book.

Man, I mean, it's a heavy book.

It's a lot. It's a lot.

It's a lot. It's a lot.

I have to ask. I have to ask this question, Kevin, mm hmm. What was the reason for changing the dynamic of their relationship.

I have to ask. I have to ask this question, Kevin, mm hmm. What was the reason for changing the dynamic of their relationship.

I have a theory. Your theory might be the I mean, what specifically about their dynamic are you thinking about?

I have a theory. Your theory might be the I mean, what specifically about their dynamic are you thinking about?

They're they're not married, they're not a couple, They're not you know, the relationship is not at the depth as it was in the book. When she started going in the past.

They're they're not married, they're not a couple, They're not you know, the relationship is not at the depth as it was in the book. When she started going in the past.

There were an incredible number of drafts, So you know, I don't you know, making TV is tricky. It's not. It is not like painting and painting. It's not writing a poem. It's not even write a play. You are in constant negotiation with a corporation represented by any number of pretty much well meaning people, and you're trying very hard to I was. I just felt like I gotta I gotta get Octavia to people. That's like what I'm you know. That was my fire inside of me. And there were many, many, many, many, many many many drafts of this pilot in which these two were married. There's a multiverse in which I made this show in which they're married, and I'm very happy, So I did that. I would say that two things, the marriage as represented in the book, which people seem to like close one eye to, is not what we would consider functional, or I would say or I would say progressive. Right. He's significantly older than her in the book, Yes, right, in a way that we would all kind of like, I think if we had to watch that every week, would have questions about He's also described in the book as like not attractive.

There were an incredible number of drafts, So you know, I don't you know, making TV is tricky. It's not. It is not like painting and painting. It's not writing a poem. It's not even write a play. You are in constant negotiation with a corporation represented by any number of pretty much well meaning people, and you're trying very hard to I was. I just felt like I gotta I gotta get Octavia to people. That's like what I'm you know. That was my fire inside of me. And there were many, many, many, many, many many many drafts of this pilot in which these two were married. There's a multiverse in which I made this show in which they're married, and I'm very happy, So I did that. I would say that two things, the marriage as represented in the book, which people seem to like close one eye to, is not what we would consider functional, or I would say or I would say progressive. Right. He's significantly older than her in the book, Yes, right, in a way that we would all kind of like, I think if we had to watch that every week, would have questions about He's also described in the book as like not attractive.

At all.

At all.

He's like short, he's like got white hair, he's got crazy eyes. He seems aggressive, and he has like extremely paternalistic impulses towards her that are that can make people pause. Right, she's supposed to type up his type, up his stuff for him. You know, there's a wild moment they have a wild fight early in their relationship where for some reason, I know a lot of people would not forgive him, and this character kind of inexplicably lets this man back in her life. So if you're talking about really trying to recreate that specific marriage for a contemporary audience, there will be bigger questions. I don't think that everyone's instinct would be like if they were in love and it's a deep love. I think that she's actually written a very I think in some ways the story of the book is actually the two of them learning really what love is.

He's like short, he's like got white hair, he's got crazy eyes. He seems aggressive, and he has like extremely paternalistic impulses towards her that are that can make people pause. Right, she's supposed to type up his type, up his stuff for him. You know, there's a wild moment they have a wild fight early in their relationship where for some reason, I know a lot of people would not forgive him, and this character kind of inexplicably lets this man back in her life. So if you're talking about really trying to recreate that specific marriage for a contemporary audience, there will be bigger questions. I don't think that everyone's instinct would be like if they were in love and it's a deep love. I think that she's actually written a very I think in some ways the story of the book is actually the two of them learning really what love is.

Like.

Like.

They kind of bond through the experience in a way that makes that marriage at the end feel genuine enough that she keeps this man out of jail when she comes back from the arm you know. And I think that there was a desire to I think I desired for there to be the possibility of watching this character have a love story in real time, rather than taking it for granted or presupposing that's our Okay, what would it mean to ask the question of how this woman might inside of this horrible experience where she is literally a commodity and at risk of being violated at any moment. You know what, if inside this we could actually give her an emotional story that felt productive or safe or evolving or deepening, or something that was also happening. But there's other things I can't say on the record. That's all. That's that's fair man. But but it's you know, for people who think I didn't want you know, I did. There are actually versions of this script that were very very close to the book, But TV's another. It's a different kind of animal than a double. And I always thought, well, you know who liberated me was merely she was like Octavia always felt kind of ambivalent about aritations for work because she was like, it'll never be the book, It'll be its own thing. As long as people read my books, that's all I care about. And so I thought, okay, right, Like, my job is here is not to replace that book or anybody's experience that book, or even my experience that book. It's to kind of give it a different iteration and hopefully in a satisfying way that it sends you back to the book and that book has accrued a different layer of meaningfulness or something. You know, that was what I always felt when I was making it. That makes sense.

They kind of bond through the experience in a way that makes that marriage at the end feel genuine enough that she keeps this man out of jail when she comes back from the arm you know. And I think that there was a desire to I think I desired for there to be the possibility of watching this character have a love story in real time, rather than taking it for granted or presupposing that's our Okay, what would it mean to ask the question of how this woman might inside of this horrible experience where she is literally a commodity and at risk of being violated at any moment. You know what, if inside this we could actually give her an emotional story that felt productive or safe or evolving or deepening, or something that was also happening. But there's other things I can't say on the record. That's all. That's that's fair man. But but it's you know, for people who think I didn't want you know, I did. There are actually versions of this script that were very very close to the book, But TV's another. It's a different kind of animal than a double. And I always thought, well, you know who liberated me was merely she was like Octavia always felt kind of ambivalent about aritations for work because she was like, it'll never be the book, It'll be its own thing. As long as people read my books, that's all I care about. And so I thought, okay, right, Like, my job is here is not to replace that book or anybody's experience that book, or even my experience that book. It's to kind of give it a different iteration and hopefully in a satisfying way that it sends you back to the book and that book has accrued a different layer of meaningfulness or something. You know, that was what I always felt when I was making it. That makes sense.

That's one of the reasons why I started this podcast, and it's happened already. We're like, oh, I should go back and reread parable of the soroh I should read Kendred, or oh I need to learn more about Octavia Butler. And I think that, you know, you kind of want to just ignite this part.

That's one of the reasons why I started this podcast, and it's happened already. We're like, oh, I should go back and reread parable of the soroh I should read Kendred, or oh I need to learn more about Octavia Butler. And I think that, you know, you kind of want to just ignite this part.

Exactly because I try. I mean, you and I both know we can trust those books enough to make their own case. Like you don't even need to make a podcast, you know, like you can lose your whole life in mind and everything spirit in those books, like black people I know have, and they're they're just more than any either of us could sum up, you know, and just talking about them, you really have to experience them, you really have to live in them, live with them. And I'm just so fortunate that somebody in my life gave me the wherewithal to kind of stay tenacious. I mean, maybe's Octavia. So I'm saying like all these people, like Toddy Moore said, nobody was checking for blue as eye it. No, she was just doing these things on the weekend. Yeah, you know, nobody saw the future coming, and no understood just the profound revolution she was engendering through her through language, through the way she engaged language. So you just have to sort of have faith in the work you're doing and listen. I mean, I'm never afraid to listen to people have something to say. That's the other thing, Like, I'm always willing to have a conversation because I do believe I put in the work to say what I'm saying, and maybe something didn't get across to you the way you wanted to hear it, or maybe you just didn't hear it.

Exactly because I try. I mean, you and I both know we can trust those books enough to make their own case. Like you don't even need to make a podcast, you know, like you can lose your whole life in mind and everything spirit in those books, like black people I know have, and they're they're just more than any either of us could sum up, you know, and just talking about them, you really have to experience them, you really have to live in them, live with them. And I'm just so fortunate that somebody in my life gave me the wherewithal to kind of stay tenacious. I mean, maybe's Octavia. So I'm saying like all these people, like Toddy Moore said, nobody was checking for blue as eye it. No, she was just doing these things on the weekend. Yeah, you know, nobody saw the future coming, and no understood just the profound revolution she was engendering through her through language, through the way she engaged language. So you just have to sort of have faith in the work you're doing and listen. I mean, I'm never afraid to listen to people have something to say. That's the other thing, Like, I'm always willing to have a conversation because I do believe I put in the work to say what I'm saying, and maybe something didn't get across to you the way you wanted to hear it, or maybe you just didn't hear it.

You know.

You know.

But it's always going to be difficult talking about the reality of history to people. Like one of the crazy repeat kind of things people kept saying when Kendrick was on the air was like, do we need another thing about slavery? Another thing about slavery? And I was like, well, first of all, as it's over and over again, I was like, there's a trillion TV show about wealthy white families doing evil stuff. One trillion of this right, and they win award after award after ward, after ward, when I come along and do one of maybe two or three shows in the history of television, there's even partly taken American slavery. It's part of his storytelling. I'm being told it's too many. There's a quota, right when I want to talk about the reality of my history and my family experience in America, there's a quota.

But it's always going to be difficult talking about the reality of history to people. Like one of the crazy repeat kind of things people kept saying when Kendrick was on the air was like, do we need another thing about slavery? Another thing about slavery? And I was like, well, first of all, as it's over and over again, I was like, there's a trillion TV show about wealthy white families doing evil stuff. One trillion of this right, and they win award after award after ward, after ward, when I come along and do one of maybe two or three shows in the history of television, there's even partly taken American slavery. It's part of his storytelling. I'm being told it's too many. There's a quota, right when I want to talk about the reality of my history and my family experience in America, there's a quota.

You know.

You know.

There's something about that where I was like, I was just glad to go to TV and say that to people and just be like, this is interesting. Right. They were a nice man in that sermon, but that was real. But that's why that stuff matters, because it's like, actually, no, yeah, this is another one. You don't have to watch it actually, because Lord knows, I don't watch every show about cops. I don't watch every show about firefighters. I don't watch every show set in the hospital. I don't watch every show set on a farm or about cowboys. That's the amazing thing about living in the Golden At TV, you ain't got to watch what you don't want to watch. But that does I mean, it's somebody out there does watch it. It doesn't need to watch it. It was just well. But it's like that's the kind of policing that only happens with black content, right, that's they don't truly nobody else experiences that.

There's something about that where I was like, I was just glad to go to TV and say that to people and just be like, this is interesting. Right. They were a nice man in that sermon, but that was real. But that's why that stuff matters, because it's like, actually, no, yeah, this is another one. You don't have to watch it actually, because Lord knows, I don't watch every show about cops. I don't watch every show about firefighters. I don't watch every show set in the hospital. I don't watch every show set on a farm or about cowboys. That's the amazing thing about living in the Golden At TV, you ain't got to watch what you don't want to watch. But that does I mean, it's somebody out there does watch it. It doesn't need to watch it. It was just well. But it's like that's the kind of policing that only happens with black content, right, that's they don't truly nobody else experiences that.

If you could, would you adapt another one of her books?

If you could, would you adapt another one of her books?

Oh my god, I mean it would take me? Yes, I would, Yes, dance Is, Yes, I would. I would. I'll be honest. When I was like pitching Kindred, nobody was checking for and then once we got picked up and all her books got optioned, and I don't know where those things are. I don't know where Kart's Parable sauris. I'm waiting for it. HBO was gonna do Fledgling. What happened? Like people got to talk. They're gonna do Dawn. They gonna do Dawn. I saw that. Yeah, you guys, can we tell the story of what happened? Because there was gonna be this thing? You know? But I would, of course I would, because I really do have a kind of It's like I'm also working on this Prince project and meeting all these Prince people who are like he was like a religious figure to them. You know, they're like they go into raptures. They pulled me in the clauset, show me tattoos and like it's too much. But I feel that kind of way back, or I feel like I was like my job. I'm just like one of her soldiers. I'm like, let me just give you read these books. Like right, I could just give you read these books. Read these books. I know, I just know that something's going to change because what she was doing was more than just fiction. It was like she was trying to build a community of thought around some ideas and so yes answers. Yes, I would do what everybody wanted me to, honestly, but it was not easy. It was not an easy time to make television. It was not an easy television to make. And yeah it was I got some gray hairs.

Oh my god, I mean it would take me? Yes, I would, Yes, dance Is, Yes, I would. I would. I'll be honest. When I was like pitching Kindred, nobody was checking for and then once we got picked up and all her books got optioned, and I don't know where those things are. I don't know where Kart's Parable sauris. I'm waiting for it. HBO was gonna do Fledgling. What happened? Like people got to talk. They're gonna do Dawn. They gonna do Dawn. I saw that. Yeah, you guys, can we tell the story of what happened? Because there was gonna be this thing? You know? But I would, of course I would, because I really do have a kind of It's like I'm also working on this Prince project and meeting all these Prince people who are like he was like a religious figure to them. You know, they're like they go into raptures. They pulled me in the clauset, show me tattoos and like it's too much. But I feel that kind of way back, or I feel like I was like my job. I'm just like one of her soldiers. I'm like, let me just give you read these books. Like right, I could just give you read these books. Read these books. I know, I just know that something's going to change because what she was doing was more than just fiction. It was like she was trying to build a community of thought around some ideas and so yes answers. Yes, I would do what everybody wanted me to, honestly, but it was not easy. It was not an easy time to make television. It was not an easy television to make. And yeah it was I got some gray hairs.

Oh man, I can only imagine. I'm sure there was a lot of off book conversations there is.

Oh man, I can only imagine. I'm sure there was a lot of off book conversations there is.

That's premium subscribers. You would get you a premium premiums. I'll tell you. I'll tell you what I do with down and in Atlanta in the fall of twenty whatever.

That's premium subscribers. You would get you a premium premiums. I'll tell you. I'll tell you what I do with down and in Atlanta in the fall of twenty whatever.

And Kindred, we are transported back to a tumultuous era where the outcomes of many of our ancestors was uncertain and often bleak. Yet hope remained a steadfast companion, contrasted and powerable the soler Octavia. Butler draws from the news and societal eras to paint a future our present day as a dystopian landscape where faith leads as the main character. This prompts a reflective question I posed earlier, what will be your legacy? What stories are you crafting from your current observations, and how are these experiences impacting your imagination? These practices of interpretation are not passive activities. They actively shape our ideology for tomorrow and influence how we internalize what unfolds before us. Brandon suggested we conclude with the Book of Martha, one of Butler's shorter stories that challenges us to envision our role in the crafting of our worlds, inviting a deep, introspective look at how we might use our powers of creation to influence our realities. I hope this summarize excerpt enables you to see yourself and your potential more clearly, pushing you to think about the legacy you wish to leave behind and the stories you choose the right.

And Kindred, we are transported back to a tumultuous era where the outcomes of many of our ancestors was uncertain and often bleak. Yet hope remained a steadfast companion, contrasted and powerable the soler Octavia. Butler draws from the news and societal eras to paint a future our present day as a dystopian landscape where faith leads as the main character. This prompts a reflective question I posed earlier, what will be your legacy? What stories are you crafting from your current observations, and how are these experiences impacting your imagination? These practices of interpretation are not passive activities. They actively shape our ideology for tomorrow and influence how we internalize what unfolds before us. Brandon suggested we conclude with the Book of Martha, one of Butler's shorter stories that challenges us to envision our role in the crafting of our worlds, inviting a deep, introspective look at how we might use our powers of creation to influence our realities. I hope this summarize excerpt enables you to see yourself and your potential more clearly, pushing you to think about the legacy you wish to leave behind and the stories you choose the right.

How will you use.

How will you use.

Your insights and your voice to shape a future that reflects the best of what we can imagine.

Your insights and your voice to shape a future that reflects the best of what we can imagine.

I think that's consistent theme and probably when we're liberating and radical. Thrust of her body of work is about the imagination and what it is that we possess this faculty of conceiving our reality as being different than it is, and how that the exercise of that is important because that's where our agency is as actors in the world begins, you know, and that's so much of the world, you know, and things don't go great, what's usually happening is someone's trying to suppress that potential in people in subjects right, and that one of the ways you do that is through robbing them of their language, which gives us access to that right, It gives us access to bringing our interior into the exterior. Maybe little, a little google, but that's just what I always find in all of her. That's the kind of the continuous threat, is a real emphasis on interiority, and especially black interiority. And I always find that these themes for me completely resolve themselves in this little short story of hers called the Book of Martha, which is never where I tell people start with octaber, where I tell them to end and it's a conversation between a Karen named Martha and God. But over the course of the story, you know, you realize that God and Martha have a relationship, you know, like that there's a connection between them that has lots to do with I think what we're talking about.

I think that's consistent theme and probably when we're liberating and radical. Thrust of her body of work is about the imagination and what it is that we possess this faculty of conceiving our reality as being different than it is, and how that the exercise of that is important because that's where our agency is as actors in the world begins, you know, and that's so much of the world, you know, and things don't go great, what's usually happening is someone's trying to suppress that potential in people in subjects right, and that one of the ways you do that is through robbing them of their language, which gives us access to that right, It gives us access to bringing our interior into the exterior. Maybe little, a little google, but that's just what I always find in all of her. That's the kind of the continuous threat, is a real emphasis on interiority, and especially black interiority. And I always find that these themes for me completely resolve themselves in this little short story of hers called the Book of Martha, which is never where I tell people start with octaber, where I tell them to end and it's a conversation between a Karen named Martha and God. But over the course of the story, you know, you realize that God and Martha have a relationship, you know, like that there's a connection between them that has lots to do with I think what we're talking about.

In this scene from the Book of Martha by Octavia Butler, Martha experiences a profound and symbolic moment with God as they enjoy sandwiches together. Martha brings out sparkling apple cider for her divine guests, but she returns she's startled to see that God has transformed into a woman, resembling Martha so closely that they could be sisters. This transformation inspires a conversation about perception and identity. Martha expresses her confusion and frustration over why it took her so long to visualize God as a black woman, questioning the authenticity of her previous perceptions of God as a white or black man. She says, it does bother me if I am doing it. Why did it take so long for me to see you as a black woman, since that's no more true than seeing you as a white or a black man. God explains that Martha sees what she has been conditioned by her life experiences to see, implying that her perceptions are shaped by her own personal and cultural background. The exchange deepens as Martha considers her own ideological constraint, her mental cage, what she thought she had escaped. She has always envisioned God in the limited human constructs available to her, white male human. God's response is enlightening. If Martha were truly still confined by those limits, she would be witnessing God. God's response is enlightening. If it were truly a cage, God said, you would still be in it, and I would still look the way I did when you first saw me, suggesting that Martha has indeed begun to transcend her previous constraints. This scene, although short, captures the theme of self realization, the breaking of mental and cultural conditioning, and the expansive nature of Divinity beyond human imposed identities. It challenges both Martha and the reader to reflect, to reflect on the boundaries of perception and the potential for growth well beyond. The Black Lit is a Black Effect original series in partnership with iHeart Media. I jac Quist Thomas and the creator and executive producer alongside Dolly s Bishop. Chanelle Collins is the director of production. It is written by myself and Bria Baker. Our researcher and producer is Jabari Davis, and the mix and sound design is by The Humble Dwyane Crawford. Special thanks to Hoshanda Saunders, Sheila Lyming, Edward Champion, Bruce Duncan, doctor Ronaldo Anderson, Kristens Wicker, Mesi Shaw, and Brandon Jacob Jenkins. Thank you. Also, if you're looking to become a writer or in search of a supportive writing community, join me for a free creative writing session on my website Black writers Room dot com, b LK Writer's Room dot com, or hit me up directly for more details at Underscore T h A T S P E A c E That's Peace.

In this scene from the Book of Martha by Octavia Butler, Martha experiences a profound and symbolic moment with God as they enjoy sandwiches together. Martha brings out sparkling apple cider for her divine guests, but she returns she's startled to see that God has transformed into a woman, resembling Martha so closely that they could be sisters. This transformation inspires a conversation about perception and identity. Martha expresses her confusion and frustration over why it took her so long to visualize God as a black woman, questioning the authenticity of her previous perceptions of God as a white or black man. She says, it does bother me if I am doing it. Why did it take so long for me to see you as a black woman, since that's no more true than seeing you as a white or a black man. God explains that Martha sees what she has been conditioned by her life experiences to see, implying that her perceptions are shaped by her own personal and cultural background. The exchange deepens as Martha considers her own ideological constraint, her mental cage, what she thought she had escaped. She has always envisioned God in the limited human constructs available to her, white male human. God's response is enlightening. If Martha were truly still confined by those limits, she would be witnessing God. God's response is enlightening. If it were truly a cage, God said, you would still be in it, and I would still look the way I did when you first saw me, suggesting that Martha has indeed begun to transcend her previous constraints. This scene, although short, captures the theme of self realization, the breaking of mental and cultural conditioning, and the expansive nature of Divinity beyond human imposed identities. It challenges both Martha and the reader to reflect, to reflect on the boundaries of perception and the potential for growth well beyond. The Black Lit is a Black Effect original series in partnership with iHeart Media. I jac Quist Thomas and the creator and executive producer alongside Dolly s Bishop. Chanelle Collins is the director of production. It is written by myself and Bria Baker. Our researcher and producer is Jabari Davis, and the mix and sound design is by The Humble Dwyane Crawford. Special thanks to Hoshanda Saunders, Sheila Lyming, Edward Champion, Bruce Duncan, doctor Ronaldo Anderson, Kristens Wicker, Mesi Shaw, and Brandon Jacob Jenkins. Thank you. Also, if you're looking to become a writer or in search of a supportive writing community, join me for a free creative writing session on my website Black writers Room dot com, b LK Writer's Room dot com, or hit me up directly for more details at Underscore T h A T S P E A c E That's Peace.