Welcome to the Black Heels and Tractor Wheels podcast, where we are sharing stories from a range of women from around New Zealand.

Welcome to the Black Heels and Tractor Wheels podcast, where we are sharing stories from a range of women from around New Zealand.

For nearly a century, Rural Women New Zealand has been dedicated to strengthening and supporting women and children to become empowered members of their communities.

For nearly a century, Rural Women New Zealand has been dedicated to strengthening and supporting women and children to become empowered members of their communities.

We hope that by hearing these stories from inspiring women all around the country, you'll feel inspired yourself.

We hope that by hearing these stories from inspiring women all around the country, you'll feel inspired yourself.

We're your hosts, Emma Higgins and Claire Williamson, and would love for you to join and subscribe to our podcast so you don't miss our rural stories.

We're your hosts, Emma Higgins and Claire Williamson, and would love for you to join and subscribe to our podcast so you don't miss our rural stories.

The way that we've been starting these conversations is just trying to understand a little bit more about you and your background. And the question really is is what do we need to know about you that has shaped you to who you are?

The way that we've been starting these conversations is just trying to understand a little bit more about you and your background. And the question really is is what do we need to know about you that has shaped you to who you are?

Now? What's a bit of your background that we need to really understand.

Now? What's a bit of your background that we need to really understand.

I joined the sector a long time ago. Now, I've been around primary all my life, so I grew up in I was born in Hawk's Bay, but then also rural Taranaki. Both older sisters married farmers, one pastor, one dairy, so I've been around farming for most of my life. Really most of my formative years, but didn't grow up as a farmer's child. My parents were local publicans actually, so yes, I got the exposure of hearing all of the problems and challenges that farmers faced from quite a young age. When I got into my own sort of career, I went, I was sent to boarding school in New Plymouth, again predominantly farmer's children, hearing all of the challenges that they faced as we were in our teenage years. And so when I left school, I think, I suppose the biggest thing is I always just took every opportunity that was presented. So I for door opened and the time was allowed me to do something, I would generally take the opportunity. Think that I was brought up in quite a male dominated environment. And my eldest is thirty something and my daughter's twenty six, so I was of that ariostole where, you know, woman probably didn't do all of the things traditionally though, you know, stayed at home and fed the sharers and cooked and did all of those things. But I loved motorbikes and tractors and all of those things. So the only way to have a heavy involvement, and that was to be more physically involved. So I did haymaking, I did silage making, I drove tractors, and I rode motorbikes. So that's kind of what shaped me, I suppose, the love of all of that. And yeah, then when I got into horticulture back in two thousand, I moved to Nelson. Actually I was married with my children and husband and we moved to Nelson. The intent was I was supposed to take a year off actually because I was to stay at home and bemum cook and do all those wonderful things. And I think it lasted about six weeks where my daughter was like, this is not going to work, and I was like, this is not going to work, and she wanted to go back to child here and I wanted to go back to work. So I ended up for a little while in the seafood sector. I was working for a company who did liprono extraction from greenland muscles, and then there was a year long contract in while I was doing that, the accounting firm that serviced that company ended up at the end of my contract saying lot, come and work for us, would be keen to have you work in our business development area and that's what I did for a little while, again quite rural being and Nelson Tasman at the time. Back in two thousand and when I joined that company, it was at the very start of the deregulation environment for apples and pears, where enza was what it was back then, or the New Zealand app on pearboard was a year prior to deregulation, and I was in the accounting firm doing business development when a group of orchids from down there had got an export license to export a year before deregulation, and so they came to the firm and said would we manage that export license and run that program for the year, and I got the job to do that. It was tasked to me, so again as opportunities present, I just sort of said, oh yeah, I'll give that a go and the rest is pretty much history, to be fair, because then it just tied me into a sector in an industry that I've been in ever since. And because I'd come from a rural background, really it was new, so it was exciting. It was something different. I've been you know, animals, not plants, and I enjoyed that learning environment with deregulation I think the part I love the most because I was in that finance background with business development. I was excited by the prospect of how do you take you know, twelve different varieties at Apple's with twelve different what we call count sizes, so from a small apple to a large you send them to I think it was about thirty four countries in that first year, and you have five different currencies and you have to be able to bring all of that back to the variety, the size and the grower that grew it. And it was just that. Basically for me, it was always about problem solving. It was like a big jigsaw and a big challenge to figure out how to do that, and those kind of things always back then were the things that kind of motivated me, I suppose. So that's that's probably the foundation of where I came from.

I joined the sector a long time ago. Now, I've been around primary all my life, so I grew up in I was born in Hawk's Bay, but then also rural Taranaki. Both older sisters married farmers, one pastor, one dairy, so I've been around farming for most of my life. Really most of my formative years, but didn't grow up as a farmer's child. My parents were local publicans actually, so yes, I got the exposure of hearing all of the problems and challenges that farmers faced from quite a young age. When I got into my own sort of career, I went, I was sent to boarding school in New Plymouth, again predominantly farmer's children, hearing all of the challenges that they faced as we were in our teenage years. And so when I left school, I think, I suppose the biggest thing is I always just took every opportunity that was presented. So I for door opened and the time was allowed me to do something, I would generally take the opportunity. Think that I was brought up in quite a male dominated environment. And my eldest is thirty something and my daughter's twenty six, so I was of that ariostole where, you know, woman probably didn't do all of the things traditionally though, you know, stayed at home and fed the sharers and cooked and did all of those things. But I loved motorbikes and tractors and all of those things. So the only way to have a heavy involvement, and that was to be more physically involved. So I did haymaking, I did silage making, I drove tractors, and I rode motorbikes. So that's kind of what shaped me, I suppose, the love of all of that. And yeah, then when I got into horticulture back in two thousand, I moved to Nelson. Actually I was married with my children and husband and we moved to Nelson. The intent was I was supposed to take a year off actually because I was to stay at home and bemum cook and do all those wonderful things. And I think it lasted about six weeks where my daughter was like, this is not going to work, and I was like, this is not going to work, and she wanted to go back to child here and I wanted to go back to work. So I ended up for a little while in the seafood sector. I was working for a company who did liprono extraction from greenland muscles, and then there was a year long contract in while I was doing that, the accounting firm that serviced that company ended up at the end of my contract saying lot, come and work for us, would be keen to have you work in our business development area and that's what I did for a little while, again quite rural being and Nelson Tasman at the time. Back in two thousand and when I joined that company, it was at the very start of the deregulation environment for apples and pears, where enza was what it was back then, or the New Zealand app on pearboard was a year prior to deregulation, and I was in the accounting firm doing business development when a group of orchids from down there had got an export license to export a year before deregulation, and so they came to the firm and said would we manage that export license and run that program for the year, and I got the job to do that. It was tasked to me, so again as opportunities present, I just sort of said, oh yeah, I'll give that a go and the rest is pretty much history, to be fair, because then it just tied me into a sector in an industry that I've been in ever since. And because I'd come from a rural background, really it was new, so it was exciting. It was something different. I've been you know, animals, not plants, and I enjoyed that learning environment with deregulation I think the part I love the most because I was in that finance background with business development. I was excited by the prospect of how do you take you know, twelve different varieties at Apple's with twelve different what we call count sizes, so from a small apple to a large you send them to I think it was about thirty four countries in that first year, and you have five different currencies and you have to be able to bring all of that back to the variety, the size and the grower that grew it. And it was just that. Basically for me, it was always about problem solving. It was like a big jigsaw and a big challenge to figure out how to do that, and those kind of things always back then were the things that kind of motivated me, I suppose. So that's that's probably the foundation of where I came from.

And written down problem solving just before you said it, because I was thinking about, you know, you're in this sort of business. You've been asked to work for an accounting firm, and I'm just thinking about the characteristics that you must have displayed in order to get those opportunities, And the first one that came up was problem solving. But I'm sure that there are others. So I'm interested in what characteristics or what things do you need to use to learn and grow and become someone who is in a position to get the kind of position I suppose to where you are now, and what did that journey look like for you.

And written down problem solving just before you said it, because I was thinking about, you know, you're in this sort of business. You've been asked to work for an accounting firm, and I'm just thinking about the characteristics that you must have displayed in order to get those opportunities, And the first one that came up was problem solving. But I'm sure that there are others. So I'm interested in what characteristics or what things do you need to use to learn and grow and become someone who is in a position to get the kind of position I suppose to where you are now, and what did that journey look like for you.

The JUNI for me was like I said, it was a male dominated environment. You had to be reasonably thick skinned. You had to you know my time. You did have to know your place. You earned your stripes, and not being offended was a big thing where you learned to separate work from you. And what I mean by that is that if someone was unhappy or criticizing you for something that you might be doing in your work role, that that was just that right, that was my job, and if they didn't like it, then my job was to try and correct it, make it better, improve it. Being open to learn, So I think the fact that every opportunity that presented itself did mean I had to learn something new and enjoying that, so that desire to want to continue learning all of the time, even now the days that I learned something new, I think my staff sometimes look at me like I'm a little bit weird. Because I'll be excited and I'll say, oh my god, I learned something new today, Because I do think you should spend your whole life channel learn.

The JUNI for me was like I said, it was a male dominated environment. You had to be reasonably thick skinned. You had to you know my time. You did have to know your place. You earned your stripes, and not being offended was a big thing where you learned to separate work from you. And what I mean by that is that if someone was unhappy or criticizing you for something that you might be doing in your work role, that that was just that right, that was my job, and if they didn't like it, then my job was to try and correct it, make it better, improve it. Being open to learn, So I think the fact that every opportunity that presented itself did mean I had to learn something new and enjoying that, so that desire to want to continue learning all of the time, even now the days that I learned something new, I think my staff sometimes look at me like I'm a little bit weird. Because I'll be excited and I'll say, oh my god, I learned something new today, Because I do think you should spend your whole life channel learn.

You've mentioned male dominated industry quite a lot, and this has been a theme for some of the conversations that we've had recently, interested in your perception on how things may or may not have changed over your years and experience in the industry.

You've mentioned male dominated industry quite a lot, and this has been a theme for some of the conversations that we've had recently, interested in your perception on how things may or may not have changed over your years and experience in the industry.

It's changed a lot. That's changed a huge amount in a very short time. So when I was cheer of Apples and peers and towards the end of my tenure, which I think was about twenty eighteen twenty seventeen, because I went into the honey Manuka honey sector for a while and at that time there was a bit of drive from a few women in the sector because it was still relatively male weighted, wanting to get woman in horticulture going, and it was a big focus point for them to get that going, which I think is fantastic. But at the time, again I kind of I was moving to a different environment, so I wasn't heavily involved in that at the time. Now, being back here, I lock around my staff and if someone had said to me five years ago. Yep, five years ago, you will have a predominantly female staff. I would have gone no way for myself as much as anything that I wouldn't have thought that would be the case. And today my not by design at all, just purely by capability. My whole senior leadership team this woman that has its challenges some days, but generally it's really good.

It's changed a lot. That's changed a huge amount in a very short time. So when I was cheer of Apples and peers and towards the end of my tenure, which I think was about twenty eighteen twenty seventeen, because I went into the honey Manuka honey sector for a while and at that time there was a bit of drive from a few women in the sector because it was still relatively male weighted, wanting to get woman in horticulture going, and it was a big focus point for them to get that going, which I think is fantastic. But at the time, again I kind of I was moving to a different environment, so I wasn't heavily involved in that at the time. Now, being back here, I lock around my staff and if someone had said to me five years ago. Yep, five years ago, you will have a predominantly female staff. I would have gone no way for myself as much as anything that I wouldn't have thought that would be the case. And today my not by design at all, just purely by capability. My whole senior leadership team this woman that has its challenges some days, but generally it's really good.

And we stoked to hear that.

And we stoked to hear that.

Yeah, we are stuck to hear that because.

Yeah, we are stuck to hear that because.

It's not always the case across sectors, and certainly not in the red meat industry. That's still got a lot of challenges to overcome. So that's yeah, that's pretty interesting. But like you say, I can imagine that would bring challenges of its own with it as well.

It's not always the case across sectors, and certainly not in the red meat industry. That's still got a lot of challenges to overcome. So that's yeah, that's pretty interesting. But like you say, I can imagine that would bring challenges of its own with it as well.

For sure.

For sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it's not so much in the team, it's more perception. So perceptions still exist, you know. Yeah, my team's great. I wouldn't change them for the world, and I'd do it all again, But the perception sometimes people kind of think, oh, she's a woman, so that's why she's got woman. That is not the case. They were the best people for the job by far. Yeah.

I think it's not so much in the team, it's more perception. So perceptions still exist, you know. Yeah, my team's great. I wouldn't change them for the world, and I'd do it all again, But the perception sometimes people kind of think, oh, she's a woman, so that's why she's got woman. That is not the case. They were the best people for the job by far. Yeah.

Absolutely, I guess I've got a question for you around how you have practically got some of the roles. So we talked about those formative years, those early years, and then we've skipped apart where you're occasionally talking about being the chair of the Apple and Pierre board for example, and then you know your role with Minoka Honey tell us about I guess the mindset change and the practical skills that you had to develop before, you know, in those early to mid years, before you know the period that you're in now.

Absolutely, I guess I've got a question for you around how you have practically got some of the roles. So we talked about those formative years, those early years, and then we've skipped apart where you're occasionally talking about being the chair of the Apple and Pierre board for example, and then you know your role with Minoka Honey tell us about I guess the mindset change and the practical skills that you had to develop before, you know, in those early to mid years, before you know the period that you're in now.

So taking on the role of chair of New Zealand Apples and Pears at the time was when the sector was probably going through close to its bottom. It had a really tough time post global Financial Crisis two thousand and eight that lingered on for a while and seven Joyce, who's just put his book out, was referring to us at the time as the sunset industry. And so we had a board that had formed around the time of deregulation and I got invited to join that board as a director when one of the directors was leaving the country and going off shore to do some work, and so they were filling a role and they gave me a call and said, you know what, I consider this role, and at the time, yeah, like I say, an opportunity presented, and yes, it was going to be tough from a work perspective because I had my own export company at the time with a business partner, So by me committing to something like that was going to put a reasonable strain on our business, potentially with my absence. But we talked about it and he said, no, you've got to go after this. You've got to do it. It'd be good for you to be good for the industry. So I took that on and then I wasn't in the role that long twelve months, I think Max not even when the CEO had a heart attack and the chair had to resign because he had served ten years. So the constitution stated that you could only do five years five terms of two years, so no one could foresee that we would have to change a cheer and a CEE at the same time. That was not predicted, and the other directors couldn't really take a cheer because they were all coming up for their constitutional turnover. So there was myself and one Grower director from way down south in Central Otago that it came down to being the only two that could have done the role. He had slightly more time left on the board than the other directors, but still it was only about two and a half years or something. And I remember sitting there not quite a year into the role, going, if you're really desperate, I'm sure I could do it, because I just thought that a cheer cheered the meeting, and that's what they did. And I watched that every time I came to a meeting, so it didn't look that difficult until the very day that I sat in that cheer and had to convene the very first meeting and thought, now, what does he say? So I learned very quickly that that was a flawed thinking process, that a chair actually does a hell of a lot. And I think I was about twenty nine at the time, thirty I was young, young enough to be criticized. I know, maybe I was a bit older. Actually I might have been late thirties. I don't know. I was in the minds of all of these males. I was not a grower, so it was the first time that it had never been a grower as cheer was an exporter. I was female and young in their minds and Osmari, so every possible negative was on the table for them, and they certainly went backward and making it clear that I should not make a mistake and balls things up, I suppose for lack of a description, but what I was fortunate to do was have a mentor. When I became a director. I was very lucky to have a person in my life I knew who had been in the primary industry for a very long time and was a very well regarded director in his own right for a number of years, and so I was able to go to him and say, Hey, I need some help, I need some guidance. And when I told him what I was going through at board meetings and how it was tough, he would literally sit and we would role play and he would say, when you go back to the next board meeting, do this and do that. Because there was a bit of a habit at the time that that board tended to have a strong group who would often decide the outcomes of meetings prior to the meeting. And I needed to stop that and circumvent that happening because that's not good governance and it wasn't the purpose of it. So yeah, we with my mentor and I worked through that and how to do it, and it just took time. It took time to earn my stripes, to prove myself. I also had the challenge of having a new and it was Ce who came in from out of industry, so he had no experience of horticulture or agree for that matter. He was a true blue town person from christ Church. So again with very clear instructions not to balls it up and make sure that he found his feet. Then I had to get on with that as well. So I was really lucky though, because because of my job, because I was an exporter and I was heavily involved in a reasonably vertically integrated environment, I could use all of that to teach him, and we did. We learned together to some degree. We spent a lot of time together. And yeah, I think it's just that whole not being afraid. You know, I certainly made mistakes, but it was owning those mistakes. It was being a bit bold. That sector didn't have a strategy at the time, and I found that a bit frustrating. So between the Sea and I, we developed a strategy which was a taste for the future. Was it was bold at the time. We were a three hundred and fifty million dollar sector because we were in tough times and the strategy was to be a billion dollars by twenty twenty two. I think it was twenty twenty two, and at the same time the government had announced the Business Growth Agenda of doubling export value by twenty twenty five. I think it was so. Yeah, So we threw out a strategy that got a lot of criticism from the sector and a number of our older, stale wart participants and members to say, you know, what are you thinking of billion dollars? You're on cannabis or something. But it had to be aspiration, all right, otherwise why do it? Yeah, we went about that and when I left the cheer in twenty eighteen, we'd hit eight hundred and thirty million and we were the fastest sector to double export value. We had a parliamentary celebration of that. So, I mean, to be fair, I mean that was a massive team. There was a lot, there was a lot of reasons that that was able to happen. It wasn't me entirely, but when you lead the sector you do get a bit of kudos in that space. But it was one hundred and fifty percent a whole lot of circumstances, events, great people, great team and I'm a big, big believer and as they say, you don't have to be the most intelligent person in the room, surround yourself with great people, and I have always done that and believe that to be absolutely true.

So taking on the role of chair of New Zealand Apples and Pears at the time was when the sector was probably going through close to its bottom. It had a really tough time post global Financial Crisis two thousand and eight that lingered on for a while and seven Joyce, who's just put his book out, was referring to us at the time as the sunset industry. And so we had a board that had formed around the time of deregulation and I got invited to join that board as a director when one of the directors was leaving the country and going off shore to do some work, and so they were filling a role and they gave me a call and said, you know what, I consider this role, and at the time, yeah, like I say, an opportunity presented, and yes, it was going to be tough from a work perspective because I had my own export company at the time with a business partner, So by me committing to something like that was going to put a reasonable strain on our business, potentially with my absence. But we talked about it and he said, no, you've got to go after this. You've got to do it. It'd be good for you to be good for the industry. So I took that on and then I wasn't in the role that long twelve months, I think Max not even when the CEO had a heart attack and the chair had to resign because he had served ten years. So the constitution stated that you could only do five years five terms of two years, so no one could foresee that we would have to change a cheer and a CEE at the same time. That was not predicted, and the other directors couldn't really take a cheer because they were all coming up for their constitutional turnover. So there was myself and one Grower director from way down south in Central Otago that it came down to being the only two that could have done the role. He had slightly more time left on the board than the other directors, but still it was only about two and a half years or something. And I remember sitting there not quite a year into the role, going, if you're really desperate, I'm sure I could do it, because I just thought that a cheer cheered the meeting, and that's what they did. And I watched that every time I came to a meeting, so it didn't look that difficult until the very day that I sat in that cheer and had to convene the very first meeting and thought, now, what does he say? So I learned very quickly that that was a flawed thinking process, that a chair actually does a hell of a lot. And I think I was about twenty nine at the time, thirty I was young, young enough to be criticized. I know, maybe I was a bit older. Actually I might have been late thirties. I don't know. I was in the minds of all of these males. I was not a grower, so it was the first time that it had never been a grower as cheer was an exporter. I was female and young in their minds and Osmari, so every possible negative was on the table for them, and they certainly went backward and making it clear that I should not make a mistake and balls things up, I suppose for lack of a description, but what I was fortunate to do was have a mentor. When I became a director. I was very lucky to have a person in my life I knew who had been in the primary industry for a very long time and was a very well regarded director in his own right for a number of years, and so I was able to go to him and say, Hey, I need some help, I need some guidance. And when I told him what I was going through at board meetings and how it was tough, he would literally sit and we would role play and he would say, when you go back to the next board meeting, do this and do that. Because there was a bit of a habit at the time that that board tended to have a strong group who would often decide the outcomes of meetings prior to the meeting. And I needed to stop that and circumvent that happening because that's not good governance and it wasn't the purpose of it. So yeah, we with my mentor and I worked through that and how to do it, and it just took time. It took time to earn my stripes, to prove myself. I also had the challenge of having a new and it was Ce who came in from out of industry, so he had no experience of horticulture or agree for that matter. He was a true blue town person from christ Church. So again with very clear instructions not to balls it up and make sure that he found his feet. Then I had to get on with that as well. So I was really lucky though, because because of my job, because I was an exporter and I was heavily involved in a reasonably vertically integrated environment, I could use all of that to teach him, and we did. We learned together to some degree. We spent a lot of time together. And yeah, I think it's just that whole not being afraid. You know, I certainly made mistakes, but it was owning those mistakes. It was being a bit bold. That sector didn't have a strategy at the time, and I found that a bit frustrating. So between the Sea and I, we developed a strategy which was a taste for the future. Was it was bold at the time. We were a three hundred and fifty million dollar sector because we were in tough times and the strategy was to be a billion dollars by twenty twenty two. I think it was twenty twenty two, and at the same time the government had announced the Business Growth Agenda of doubling export value by twenty twenty five. I think it was so. Yeah, So we threw out a strategy that got a lot of criticism from the sector and a number of our older, stale wart participants and members to say, you know, what are you thinking of billion dollars? You're on cannabis or something. But it had to be aspiration, all right, otherwise why do it? Yeah, we went about that and when I left the cheer in twenty eighteen, we'd hit eight hundred and thirty million and we were the fastest sector to double export value. We had a parliamentary celebration of that. So, I mean, to be fair, I mean that was a massive team. There was a lot, there was a lot of reasons that that was able to happen. It wasn't me entirely, but when you lead the sector you do get a bit of kudos in that space. But it was one hundred and fifty percent a whole lot of circumstances, events, great people, great team and I'm a big, big believer and as they say, you don't have to be the most intelligent person in the room, surround yourself with great people, and I have always done that and believe that to be absolutely true.

Yeah, So what I'm kind of pondering is you're talking about this very practical governance journey and the challenges that you face, So thank you for sharing that, by the way, But what I'm thinking about is, you know, we've got a lot of young people who maybe want to get into the governance space or even into senior leadership ssitions eventually, and they potentially don't know where their value lies, but they do have value, and they're thinking about how actually do I communicate this value?

Yeah, So what I'm kind of pondering is you're talking about this very practical governance journey and the challenges that you face, So thank you for sharing that, by the way, But what I'm thinking about is, you know, we've got a lot of young people who maybe want to get into the governance space or even into senior leadership ssitions eventually, and they potentially don't know where their value lies, but they do have value, and they're thinking about how actually do I communicate this value?

And as women were often.

And as women were often.

Maybe a little bit in confident or not particularly good at getting that across. So I'm just I'm curious as to how you actually kind of communicate that value, Like, how do you go about that? How do you say, actually, you know what, I want to start putting my hand out for some of these positions. I want to grow my skills.

Maybe a little bit in confident or not particularly good at getting that across. So I'm just I'm curious as to how you actually kind of communicate that value, Like, how do you go about that? How do you say, actually, you know what, I want to start putting my hand out for some of these positions. I want to grow my skills.

What sort of advice would you give in that space.

What sort of advice would you give in that space.

I'm going to be reasonably brutal because I think it's important that we are clear about expectations and reality. So something I'm seeing a lot of at the moment which concerns me, and probably because I've got children and you know that age group coming through. I started young, but I started everything young, you know what I mean, Like I didn't. I didn't the way that my children have grown up and their development and evolution was very different to mine because we were my generation. I think when I hit seventh form or year thirteen, there were seven students, right that wasn't normal to go through and then to go on to university. And I think halfway through my seventh form, my year, my mother said to me, this is just stupid. You're wasting time. You're wasting my time, everybody's time, you know, ra rah, Because I changed my subjects every year and I was having a good time. So she decided that, you know, I was mucking around and I needed to go out and get a real job, because that's what we did back then. We didn't go to UNI. It wasn't just a I mean, every one of those of those seven students that were in my year, I think five of them went to teacher's college and two went to university, you know what I mean. So it wasn't the norm. And I can't remember. I know that I was young, I had a boyfriend who was older. Sport was but pretty important to me, and I was young for my age. In year thirteen, I was still only seventeen, so I was the youngest in my family. I had worked because of my parents' job. I could work, I could make money and I did and I had so I don't know. Halfway through my seventh form year thought yep, she's been a pain and I don't really need to put up with us, So I'm going to England and got on a plane and we went to England with four rugby players to play rugby at the Harlequins in London. But I grew up in pubs so I could pour pints. So I went in poured pints in London and under age illegally because no one ever asked to see any proof of how old I was. So I went off and did that. And I was going to spend you know a few years over there and find myself and away for my mother. But that didn't happen. Because the guy I was worth had quite a bad injury in rugby and we ended up coming back to New Zealand after about six or seven months, and then I thought, I'm not going home to my mother. I'm going to go off and you know, I don't know, conquer the world and growing up around farmers, growing up in the pub as I did. The guy I went with was a farmer's son, and when we got back, I was like, ah, I can do this farming thing, and so gave it a go. And to the two hear from a number of people that you'll never succeed. You're a pretty little town girl who won't handle cowsheads and you know, cow minur and all those kind of things. So that just made me more determined to prove them all wrong. And I did go farming, and I did become an ab technician and did all of those things just to prove people wrong, which as I've grown up and matured, realized that was really a silly strategy. But what it did is it taught me to be resilient, right, And that's one of the big keys is that if you can be resilient and you can take the knots and take the criticisms. If you're being bold and make mistakes and learn from them, it's quite invaluable. And I think what I worry about, if I'm honest, these days with younger people, is that it's whatever's changed, it has changed, and you don't have the same opportunities or the same you don't have the same opportunities to learn those levels of resilience. We pott and wooled you more. You know, your jungle gyms had crash mats under them. You weren't allowed to climb trees. You didn't get to. I mean I was riding motorbikes at like eight years old. I was driving cars illegally before I have my license because country kids could do those things. And that is all changed, all of that. I could drive tractors, I could do all of those things that kids don't get to do the same today because we prevent all of these accents for the right reason, but it alter's behaviors. And so what I get worried about now for young people, and I'm watching it happen, as we know, have winners of Ahafenawa, we have winners of Young Growl competitions, we have winners of young farmers, and then we project or propel them out into the world and we say, this is going to give you all of these opportunities, it is going to open doors for you, it's going to do these great things. And then twelve months after the event, they sit there deflated as the next one it gets and now it's going. All that did was give me twelve months of meeting people extra work. Yeah, cool, I got to go to some environments and see some things. But tomorrow I go back to being who I was twelve months ago. And so I think there is not enough focus on what do these young people want, when do they want it? And then what is the pathway? Because if you can't show them a pathway and you can't show them what the realities are along the way. I mean, my mentor was brutal on me. You know, you can't remember how old it was, at what stage it was, but I took on a number of directorships at different times. A lot happened for me in a reasonably you know, in a ten to fifteen year window where the workloads when you're trying to balance family and work and everything else was at times I thought completely unsustainable. And he would say to me, then make the choice, make the choice of what you want. If you think you can't have it at all, then pick which way you're going to go, and go and don't question it. And he was right. You know, I was lucky. I had a very supportive husband and I still do. He was the primary caregiver for a number of reasons. But I could only do that because he was that So they had to be a joint decision, right. And now I see more and more for young people that they're both trying to achieve it, and it's hard. You can't necessarily always both achieve it unless you've got the benefit of family support.

I'm going to be reasonably brutal because I think it's important that we are clear about expectations and reality. So something I'm seeing a lot of at the moment which concerns me, and probably because I've got children and you know that age group coming through. I started young, but I started everything young, you know what I mean, Like I didn't. I didn't the way that my children have grown up and their development and evolution was very different to mine because we were my generation. I think when I hit seventh form or year thirteen, there were seven students, right that wasn't normal to go through and then to go on to university. And I think halfway through my seventh form, my year, my mother said to me, this is just stupid. You're wasting time. You're wasting my time, everybody's time, you know, ra rah, Because I changed my subjects every year and I was having a good time. So she decided that, you know, I was mucking around and I needed to go out and get a real job, because that's what we did back then. We didn't go to UNI. It wasn't just a I mean, every one of those of those seven students that were in my year, I think five of them went to teacher's college and two went to university, you know what I mean. So it wasn't the norm. And I can't remember. I know that I was young, I had a boyfriend who was older. Sport was but pretty important to me, and I was young for my age. In year thirteen, I was still only seventeen, so I was the youngest in my family. I had worked because of my parents' job. I could work, I could make money and I did and I had so I don't know. Halfway through my seventh form year thought yep, she's been a pain and I don't really need to put up with us, So I'm going to England and got on a plane and we went to England with four rugby players to play rugby at the Harlequins in London. But I grew up in pubs so I could pour pints. So I went in poured pints in London and under age illegally because no one ever asked to see any proof of how old I was. So I went off and did that. And I was going to spend you know a few years over there and find myself and away for my mother. But that didn't happen. Because the guy I was worth had quite a bad injury in rugby and we ended up coming back to New Zealand after about six or seven months, and then I thought, I'm not going home to my mother. I'm going to go off and you know, I don't know, conquer the world and growing up around farmers, growing up in the pub as I did. The guy I went with was a farmer's son, and when we got back, I was like, ah, I can do this farming thing, and so gave it a go. And to the two hear from a number of people that you'll never succeed. You're a pretty little town girl who won't handle cowsheads and you know, cow minur and all those kind of things. So that just made me more determined to prove them all wrong. And I did go farming, and I did become an ab technician and did all of those things just to prove people wrong, which as I've grown up and matured, realized that was really a silly strategy. But what it did is it taught me to be resilient, right, And that's one of the big keys is that if you can be resilient and you can take the knots and take the criticisms. If you're being bold and make mistakes and learn from them, it's quite invaluable. And I think what I worry about, if I'm honest, these days with younger people, is that it's whatever's changed, it has changed, and you don't have the same opportunities or the same you don't have the same opportunities to learn those levels of resilience. We pott and wooled you more. You know, your jungle gyms had crash mats under them. You weren't allowed to climb trees. You didn't get to. I mean I was riding motorbikes at like eight years old. I was driving cars illegally before I have my license because country kids could do those things. And that is all changed, all of that. I could drive tractors, I could do all of those things that kids don't get to do the same today because we prevent all of these accents for the right reason, but it alter's behaviors. And so what I get worried about now for young people, and I'm watching it happen, as we know, have winners of Ahafenawa, we have winners of Young Growl competitions, we have winners of young farmers, and then we project or propel them out into the world and we say, this is going to give you all of these opportunities, it is going to open doors for you, it's going to do these great things. And then twelve months after the event, they sit there deflated as the next one it gets and now it's going. All that did was give me twelve months of meeting people extra work. Yeah, cool, I got to go to some environments and see some things. But tomorrow I go back to being who I was twelve months ago. And so I think there is not enough focus on what do these young people want, when do they want it? And then what is the pathway? Because if you can't show them a pathway and you can't show them what the realities are along the way. I mean, my mentor was brutal on me. You know, you can't remember how old it was, at what stage it was, but I took on a number of directorships at different times. A lot happened for me in a reasonably you know, in a ten to fifteen year window where the workloads when you're trying to balance family and work and everything else was at times I thought completely unsustainable. And he would say to me, then make the choice, make the choice of what you want. If you think you can't have it at all, then pick which way you're going to go, and go and don't question it. And he was right. You know, I was lucky. I had a very supportive husband and I still do. He was the primary caregiver for a number of reasons. But I could only do that because he was that So they had to be a joint decision, right. And now I see more and more for young people that they're both trying to achieve it, and it's hard. You can't necessarily always both achieve it unless you've got the benefit of family support.

Family family support or a sugar daddy best and you know, the support systems that you that you need if you're both trying to you know, go hard in your careers and have.

Family family support or a sugar daddy best and you know, the support systems that you that you need if you're both trying to you know, go hard in your careers and have.

A family and raise them not to be psychopaths at the same time.

A family and raise them not to be psychopaths at the same time.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

I think you've touched on some really important comments there. And one of the things that have been thinking about for a while now is perhaps is that generation a little bit not I don't know.

I think you've touched on some really important comments there. And one of the things that have been thinking about for a while now is perhaps is that generation a little bit not I don't know.

If hard enough is the right word.

If hard enough is the right word.

It's probably not the right phrase, but you touched on up probably with the terminology resilience and grit. And so is there a way that we can be communicating this or what would what would some steps be for someone to develop that? Is it just having a go at everything, being prepared to be knocked down, make those quick, fast mistakes and learn from them. How would someone develop that sense of grit and this new environment where making mistakes isn't necessarily perhaps what some people either want to do or is told is okay behavior.

It's probably not the right phrase, but you touched on up probably with the terminology resilience and grit. And so is there a way that we can be communicating this or what would what would some steps be for someone to develop that? Is it just having a go at everything, being prepared to be knocked down, make those quick, fast mistakes and learn from them. How would someone develop that sense of grit and this new environment where making mistakes isn't necessarily perhaps what some people either want to do or is told is okay behavior.

I think yep, definitely be prepared to be knocked down without a doubt, whether it's by sadly here is or you know people that you think won't because New Zealand we're in notorous with tall poppy, we just are. Yeah, fast mistakes is okay. I think a big problem is worrying about fitting at all in you know, I look at lots of young people when my daughter's the same. You know, she's twenty six and like in this big panic. Now you know by twenty six, mum you had done this, you had Matthew, you were doing this, you do the world was different. We are not comparable. I didn't go off to UNI straight away. I studied extermily. It was just different, right, So you can't kind of compare, and you shouldn't, and that is the problem. We spend so much time comparing ourselves, if not to our parents and previous generations, to our peers. Be happy, make a decision for yourself and your own family, and be happy with that. Don't. I've never worried about what my title is. I couldn't care less of film, a CEO or not. I focus on what my role is and what I'm doing and does that make me feel good? Is that feeding you know my needs and my desires, and that's it. I've never I've always said to my kids and to other people, do not be driven by money. Money should be a outcome of a wholesome and fulfilling career. It shouldn't be your core focus of why you're doing something. So I think it's just about really setting the right parameters in your own head. Resilience is only at its optimum when you're in a position to not care too much. You know what I mean. And that's why I said earlier about workers work. It's important and it drives a lot of people, and it drives me. But at the end of the day, when I go home, so long as you know. I've had some interesting things in media over the years about me and functions and different things. And I do remember my daughter ringing me one day, going, oh my god, Mom, I just read the news, you know, blah blah blah blah blah. And I said, so, what do you think, you know, what do you think? She goes, Oh, it's ridiculous. I don't believe it. But how do you know? Are you okay?

I think yep, definitely be prepared to be knocked down without a doubt, whether it's by sadly here is or you know people that you think won't because New Zealand we're in notorous with tall poppy, we just are. Yeah, fast mistakes is okay. I think a big problem is worrying about fitting at all in you know, I look at lots of young people when my daughter's the same. You know, she's twenty six and like in this big panic. Now you know by twenty six, mum you had done this, you had Matthew, you were doing this, you do the world was different. We are not comparable. I didn't go off to UNI straight away. I studied extermily. It was just different, right, So you can't kind of compare, and you shouldn't, and that is the problem. We spend so much time comparing ourselves, if not to our parents and previous generations, to our peers. Be happy, make a decision for yourself and your own family, and be happy with that. Don't. I've never worried about what my title is. I couldn't care less of film, a CEO or not. I focus on what my role is and what I'm doing and does that make me feel good? Is that feeding you know my needs and my desires, and that's it. I've never I've always said to my kids and to other people, do not be driven by money. Money should be a outcome of a wholesome and fulfilling career. It shouldn't be your core focus of why you're doing something. So I think it's just about really setting the right parameters in your own head. Resilience is only at its optimum when you're in a position to not care too much. You know what I mean. And that's why I said earlier about workers work. It's important and it drives a lot of people, and it drives me. But at the end of the day, when I go home, so long as you know. I've had some interesting things in media over the years about me and functions and different things. And I do remember my daughter ringing me one day, going, oh my god, Mom, I just read the news, you know, blah blah blah blah blah. And I said, so, what do you think, you know, what do you think? She goes, Oh, it's ridiculous. I don't believe it. But how do you know? Are you okay?

To me?

To me?

I'm like, I am fine, I said. And the very point, so long as you and Dad and Matthew know I'm all good, that's all it really matters. It doesn't matter. The rest of the world will never know me like you know me, and that's reality. So and I don't want them to. Really, So long as the people that you rate is the most important to you, know you and understand you. That is the core to resilience. The rest is just proful. You know. It's funny. Same thing. I look at Facebook or Instagram, will snapschat or whatever they are now, and originally Facebook, you know, with my kids and they had on a five hundred or a thousand friends, and I'm like, don't be ridiculous, you don't have five hundred or a thousand friends, all of and all reality have probably a dozen, you know, half a dozen really good friends. That's it. You have acquaintances, you have people you network with, you have people that you interact with for work and all of these other things. But friends is a different definition. Family is a different definition. So define those in your own mind, and then that is what will help you be resilient. All the rest doesn't matter. Pictures on Facebook, pictures on social media, photos, and paper media is sort of releases in paper. So long as people know you that matter and know that that's not right or is right or whatever, it's all that matters.

I'm like, I am fine, I said. And the very point, so long as you and Dad and Matthew know I'm all good, that's all it really matters. It doesn't matter. The rest of the world will never know me like you know me, and that's reality. So and I don't want them to. Really, So long as the people that you rate is the most important to you, know you and understand you. That is the core to resilience. The rest is just proful. You know. It's funny. Same thing. I look at Facebook or Instagram, will snapschat or whatever they are now, and originally Facebook, you know, with my kids and they had on a five hundred or a thousand friends, and I'm like, don't be ridiculous, you don't have five hundred or a thousand friends, all of and all reality have probably a dozen, you know, half a dozen really good friends. That's it. You have acquaintances, you have people you network with, you have people that you interact with for work and all of these other things. But friends is a different definition. Family is a different definition. So define those in your own mind, and then that is what will help you be resilient. All the rest doesn't matter. Pictures on Facebook, pictures on social media, photos, and paper media is sort of releases in paper. So long as people know you that matter and know that that's not right or is right or whatever, it's all that matters.

Yeah, And I think as soon as we've been in the comparison generation now for a wee while, I think, yeah, hopefully that is maybe just a phase or it will evolve into something else over time. But I've had a really big question that's been brewing in my mind for about five minutes, and it's about impact, because it feels to me like, you know, you've talked about your money being an outcome, You've talked about doing the role that you're there to do, and I'm thinking about the dean on the brink of retirement and what she might like to have achieved. And I'm interested in your thoughts around us because you've had big roles in the sector, You've had a lot of influence in the sector, and yeah, I wonder if you'd share your thoughts on what that might look like for you between now and whenever that is you've decided to not.

Yeah, And I think as soon as we've been in the comparison generation now for a wee while, I think, yeah, hopefully that is maybe just a phase or it will evolve into something else over time. But I've had a really big question that's been brewing in my mind for about five minutes, and it's about impact, because it feels to me like, you know, you've talked about your money being an outcome, You've talked about doing the role that you're there to do, and I'm thinking about the dean on the brink of retirement and what she might like to have achieved. And I'm interested in your thoughts around us because you've had big roles in the sector, You've had a lot of influence in the sector, and yeah, I wonder if you'd share your thoughts on what that might look like for you between now and whenever that is you've decided to not.

That's not what we're saying, by.

That's not what we're saying, by.

The way, I know I've been saying it quite publicly, so that's okay. I've been getting a hard time about saying that publicly. I think for me, again, I've never it's never been about me going I'm making an impact, I'm making a change because I like to problem solve because it's one of my sort of core fundamental parts of me. I like to look at things.

The way, I know I've been saying it quite publicly, so that's okay. I've been getting a hard time about saying that publicly. I think for me, again, I've never it's never been about me going I'm making an impact, I'm making a change because I like to problem solve because it's one of my sort of core fundamental parts of me. I like to look at things.

You know.

You know.

Strong Wall Action Group was one of the groups I was involved in because there was a problem in the sector, you know, and all of those kind of things, and I just like to try and find the solution, you know. So I'm not worried about whether it's my solution or it's someone else's solution. If we can put great minds together and come up with something that's meaningful and can help a greater group of people. That's all it's about, you know, it's about It's not my team. I don't know. Some days, I just I often want to say to them, do I do their heads in? This my style of management because I do a big believer in empowering other people. Like I said before, you shouldn't need to know everything. You shouldn't think you're the most intelligent person in the room. Surround yourself with people smarter than yourself, and know when to speak to something, to a topic, but also know when to go So actually, I'm going to hand this over to Michelle or I'm going to hand this over to Rebecca, because they are the expert subject matter experts, not me. I'm just the figurehead to it all. My job is to have the network that can open the doors to have the conversations. My job is to have the relationships where when they're not getting the cut through at the level they need, I can message a minister or message whoever will actually be able to drive the change or at least to make sure the conversation has had rather than just throw it to the side because it's stuck somewhere, particularly in government. When you're around government it is very hierarchical, it is very big. And you know, if you look at horticulture, our ratio of staff to government staff and just four ministries, just the four key ministries we deal with being MPIMB, M FAT and Ministry for Environment is one to one hundred and seventy six. So we have to be able to cut through sometimes what am I going to do? How am I going to retire? I think that the change and speed of growth at the moment, so we're going through what I think is particularly if you look at AI and other things coming in, it is going to continue to be an exponential growth rate and change for every sector. But agrees right up there. My job, I suppose and how I should help an influence going forward is going to be making sure that things are well set up for the next generation. And I'm trust me, I'm grappling with that a little bit because the molds change and the challenge and I'll be happy for anyone to contact me and tell me the answer on this one is that you've still got a group of growers and farmers who are all about but getting up with the sun, going to bed with the sun, so to speak. But you know what I mean, they are hard, long day workers. They're seven days a week often and they that just it's their life. They live on the farms, they live on the orchards. They live and breath that. It's not like a government person who goes to work at nine o'clock, leaves work at four o'clock and goes home and separates their mind from their work. Our guys live and breath that every single day. And that's really hard to educate government to that. And so as in my team in this industry body stuff, I've got to find people and educate people to be those translators between government and our farmers because if you can't get good translators, the settings and the environment for our girls and farmers are just not going to get better. And it's actually a really tough one because I know that the environment's also got to facilitate the work life balance that younger people want these days that I know my son looks at my husband like what often goes, why are you guys doing this? Why do you do what you do? You know, this is just ridiculous. But he's not a farmer, he's not an agri person, So I don't know's I'm still thinking about that one clear. So yeah, I think I'm seeing a lot of people go offshore, and it worries me in that generation as well, because as long as you guys aren't coming through right, we have to hang on a little bit longer. So that's not ideal. Just for the record, it's true.

Strong Wall Action Group was one of the groups I was involved in because there was a problem in the sector, you know, and all of those kind of things, and I just like to try and find the solution, you know. So I'm not worried about whether it's my solution or it's someone else's solution. If we can put great minds together and come up with something that's meaningful and can help a greater group of people. That's all it's about, you know, it's about It's not my team. I don't know. Some days, I just I often want to say to them, do I do their heads in? This my style of management because I do a big believer in empowering other people. Like I said before, you shouldn't need to know everything. You shouldn't think you're the most intelligent person in the room. Surround yourself with people smarter than yourself, and know when to speak to something, to a topic, but also know when to go So actually, I'm going to hand this over to Michelle or I'm going to hand this over to Rebecca, because they are the expert subject matter experts, not me. I'm just the figurehead to it all. My job is to have the network that can open the doors to have the conversations. My job is to have the relationships where when they're not getting the cut through at the level they need, I can message a minister or message whoever will actually be able to drive the change or at least to make sure the conversation has had rather than just throw it to the side because it's stuck somewhere, particularly in government. When you're around government it is very hierarchical, it is very big. And you know, if you look at horticulture, our ratio of staff to government staff and just four ministries, just the four key ministries we deal with being MPIMB, M FAT and Ministry for Environment is one to one hundred and seventy six. So we have to be able to cut through sometimes what am I going to do? How am I going to retire? I think that the change and speed of growth at the moment, so we're going through what I think is particularly if you look at AI and other things coming in, it is going to continue to be an exponential growth rate and change for every sector. But agrees right up there. My job, I suppose and how I should help an influence going forward is going to be making sure that things are well set up for the next generation. And I'm trust me, I'm grappling with that a little bit because the molds change and the challenge and I'll be happy for anyone to contact me and tell me the answer on this one is that you've still got a group of growers and farmers who are all about but getting up with the sun, going to bed with the sun, so to speak. But you know what I mean, they are hard, long day workers. They're seven days a week often and they that just it's their life. They live on the farms, they live on the orchards. They live and breath that. It's not like a government person who goes to work at nine o'clock, leaves work at four o'clock and goes home and separates their mind from their work. Our guys live and breath that every single day. And that's really hard to educate government to that. And so as in my team in this industry body stuff, I've got to find people and educate people to be those translators between government and our farmers because if you can't get good translators, the settings and the environment for our girls and farmers are just not going to get better. And it's actually a really tough one because I know that the environment's also got to facilitate the work life balance that younger people want these days that I know my son looks at my husband like what often goes, why are you guys doing this? Why do you do what you do? You know, this is just ridiculous. But he's not a farmer, he's not an agri person, So I don't know's I'm still thinking about that one clear. So yeah, I think I'm seeing a lot of people go offshore, and it worries me in that generation as well, because as long as you guys aren't coming through right, we have to hang on a little bit longer. So that's not ideal. Just for the record, it's true.

It's true.

It's true.

Succession does depend on fresh blood coming in right, and.

Succession does depend on fresh blood coming in right, and.

It does, but into a safe environment. And that's what worries me because to your point earlier about young ones coming through and wanting to get into governance, I've got no problem with that. That's really good. But I do think that we underrate or don't think enough about what that means, because I'd love to have some forums or some sessions with young people to ask why why do they desire that? What is the thinking? Because the reality is true governance when you start to get into it has some very very heavy and high risk stakes attached to it in terms of liabilities and things like that, and so you have to have the capacity. You know, at mail Palstale, my god, it's you know, that's real. It was a real thing. But it was a real thing because they were the only people who had the time the time and the space to make sure, and I mean a number of them have still got it wrong to not get into trouble, right, And if you look at some of the cases in the last five years where directors have got it really wrong, and they are professional directors, the liability personally is substantial. That is something that probably would have quite a career impacting effect on you personally, but also limiting in terms of what you can do in your day job. Yeah, it's not as glamorous as we always necessarily betray. I would rather see that younger people get the opportunity to participate as associates without the liability and the risks.

It does, but into a safe environment. And that's what worries me because to your point earlier about young ones coming through and wanting to get into governance, I've got no problem with that. That's really good. But I do think that we underrate or don't think enough about what that means, because I'd love to have some forums or some sessions with young people to ask why why do they desire that? What is the thinking? Because the reality is true governance when you start to get into it has some very very heavy and high risk stakes attached to it in terms of liabilities and things like that, and so you have to have the capacity. You know, at mail Palstale, my god, it's you know, that's real. It was a real thing. But it was a real thing because they were the only people who had the time the time and the space to make sure, and I mean a number of them have still got it wrong to not get into trouble, right, And if you look at some of the cases in the last five years where directors have got it really wrong, and they are professional directors, the liability personally is substantial. That is something that probably would have quite a career impacting effect on you personally, but also limiting in terms of what you can do in your day job. Yeah, it's not as glamorous as we always necessarily betray. I would rather see that younger people get the opportunity to participate as associates without the liability and the risks.

Great comments there, and I like your idea of this forum right because I think there'd be so many insights that would come from that. And I do wonder if maybe some of the questioning around governance coming through from younger people lies with just wanting to speed out the pace of change quite simply.

Great comments there, and I like your idea of this forum right because I think there'd be so many insights that would come from that. And I do wonder if maybe some of the questioning around governance coming through from younger people lies with just wanting to speed out the pace of change quite simply.

Maybe that's where it comes from. I don't know, but yeah.

Maybe that's where it comes from. I don't know, but yeah.

That's a valid that's valid. I can understand that. And that's why I think having that ability to sit there without the risks and liabilit is important because they would see then why things are slow. And things are slow because people are having to take risks personally and carry liabilities personally if it goes wrong. That always sharpens your judgment and your decision making process. Government's slow, and that's slow because it's ridiculous, not for that liability sort of, Well, it is to be fair if you look through government agencies and ministries. The best way to get promoted is to not make a bad decision. So the best way not to make a bad decision is don't make a decision. Whereas I'm the opposite. The best way to learn is to make a mistake. Quite often, to make mistake, but just learn from it. Right, we're a pole opposite scenario. How do we fix that?

That's a valid that's valid. I can understand that. And that's why I think having that ability to sit there without the risks and liabilit is important because they would see then why things are slow. And things are slow because people are having to take risks personally and carry liabilities personally if it goes wrong. That always sharpens your judgment and your decision making process. Government's slow, and that's slow because it's ridiculous, not for that liability sort of, Well, it is to be fair if you look through government agencies and ministries. The best way to get promoted is to not make a bad decision. So the best way not to make a bad decision is don't make a decision. Whereas I'm the opposite. The best way to learn is to make a mistake. Quite often, to make mistake, but just learn from it. Right, we're a pole opposite scenario. How do we fix that?

But questions, and I guess my last one is before we wrap this up, you talked about some career pivotal moments and I'm guessing the GFC and when you stepped into certain roles around the regulation time, I'm going to hazard a guess the cyclone.

But questions, and I guess my last one is before we wrap this up, you talked about some career pivotal moments and I'm guessing the GFC and when you stepped into certain roles around the regulation time, I'm going to hazard a guess the cyclone.

It's probably just another, you know, one of those times. Can you.

It's probably just another, you know, one of those times. Can you.

Just from your perspective talk about how it's been for you, obviously with a mind of service and you are representing the growers, But how have you handled the pressure?

Just from your perspective talk about how it's been for you, obviously with a mind of service and you are representing the growers, But how have you handled the pressure?

When you get older, you learn to compartmentalize better, so to be fair, knowing what your drivers are is probably the most important thing. And my driver's always been that I want I care, So I do care, even though people some people might think I don't care about much. I care quite deeply about a lot of things, and I care a lot about that. Ultimately, if I step right back holistically, I care a lot about New Zealand and New Zealand's future. I've got kids, I've now got a grand as well to consider, and so I don't want them growing up in a country that is horrendous, right. That's probably what keeps me here in a capacity that's probably a little bit bigger than I would like it to be. At the stage of my life, I could probably quite happyly drink a few more cocktails on a Pacific island somewhere, but I don't think that's going to happen in the next five to ten years. But that's my core driver at the bottom of it is that I do want New Zealand to be a fantastic place for us to be able to, you know, live and grow up in for future generations. But then when I break that down to my day job in this role, I do care really deeply about my growers and the challenges they face on a daily basis, and I know it's very real for them and that often they carry a lot of burdens to you know, when I look around over the last couple of years, I have been around long enough to witness and to become quite close to a few who I think are suffering from the burden of legacy syndrome in terms of many around my age or a little bit younger who are second or third generation and feel this massive burden of these family businesses to carry on and feel that if they don't, they've failed. So when I talked to you guys earlier and said for me, you know, I look at it as my immediate family, well they're doing the same. But for them that comes with that tie of the business they can't get away from. For me, I can always at the end of my day go home and go I tried my best today. Did I make a difference? Yes or no? Because I don't know. There's lots of them out there. For me, I've got four thousand I think it's two hundred girls or something. Now you can't remember the number of the top of my head, but of them, at least probably three thousand are stuck in some kind of vortex, often of not being able to find the way out. I don't carry that monkey, you know, I don't have that. So yeah, my job is to try and help them as much as possible. And you know, some people say to me year, but they've got to help themselves, and that is true. And I have seen some people where, you know, I might have said to them seven or eight years ago, maybe you should think about, you know, changing your career options or where you're at. But it's easy for me to say, right, because I don't carry the burden that they carry. And it's a big it's a big step. I can't even imagine what that step would be like for some of those guys to have to make that decision. And in fact, I had a meeting with a grower at my conference who said exactly that to me. He said, I am not going to burden my children with this. He said, just because I've been successful in this business does not mean because their surname is the same as mine, they will be as successful as me. He is the first and only grower that I've ever come across who articulated it like that, and I was stoked. I mean, because he has a very big, very successful business and he's not gonna burden his kids with it and he's made that conscious decision, and shit, I wish others could do that. But it's not that easy sometimes, right, So that's my job to try and make that better for them. It's not easy, and I don't ever expect that they understand it, because they shouldn't. My job is to try and allow them to be the best growers in the world and to get on with doing what they do. But again, there's been so much change over to the last decade and a half that now we have to kind of bring them closer to what happens here in Wellington and why we can't make those changes or why we can, and what's driving that so they at least have an understanding. But it's hard. It's a lot. You know that they're trying to do more than a full day job growing and farming, and now we're trying to say, oh, and by the way, can you also have an awareness of all of this other stuff? I don't know, maybe getting back to being a team of five thousand in horticulture and you know, working together. I don't know. I don't want to sound like to send to God forbid, but just saying, you know, conceptually there's a merit in that somehow, and I don't Maybe that's our next evolution, right, Maybe that's where the next generation because I am you know if you think, I think at average age is sixty eight, you know.