The Rooney Rule came into effect in 2003 to increase the number of Black head coaches in the NFL. Brian Flores’ lawsuit against the league exposed how team owners don’t take this rule as seriously as they should. Host Roy Wood Jr. sits with CBS Mornings co-host, Nate Burleson, and former New York Jets coach, Collette V. Smith, to discuss the lack of diversity in the NFL’s head coaching positions and how the league can hold team owners accountable.
Original air date: October 25, 2022
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Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes, the Daily Show podcast that goes a little deeper into segments and topics that originally aired on The Daily Show. This is the best way to explain this podcast. Okay, look, the Daily Show is the club. You're already in the club. You got in the club. But this podcast is the VIP section members only. You get a chair, you get a bottle with a sparkler coming out of it, You get yourself a little bit of a Norduv, you get your own personal bouncer, and inside that VIP area, we give you a deeper scoop on all of your favorite episodes. Today, we are talking about a topic that Trevor covered earlier this year when former Miami Dolphins head coach Brian Flores sued the NFL after being on the receiving end of What he accused is the Dolphins have been discriminatory hiring practices. Give it a clip for.
A long time blackhead coach in the NFL, which is not a thing right. In fact, between nineteen twenty six and nineteen eighty nine, there were zero black coaches, nada.
Yeah, during that.
Sixty year period, it was easier to find a black person in space than coaching in the NFL. And finally, in two thousand and two, Johnny cochran, Yes, the OJ guy. I guess he was rarely into football. He threatened to sue the league if it didn't get its act together, and so the NFL created something called the Rooney Rule, which said that at any time that there's an opening for a new coach, at least one minority candidate has to be interviewed for the job. Which is cool, but now Brian Flores is saying that these interviews he's getting they aren't real. These teams are just going through the motions to satisfy the Rooney Rule. And honestly, if you're going to make someone come to a bullshit interview, the least you can do is let them know ahead of time.
Let them know this is.
A bullshit interview, because that way they can have some fun with it. You know, think how dopen would be to get to an interview knowing you're not going to get the job.
Then you can give bullshit interviews.
Sheelle, what would you say is your biggest weakness? I'm deathly afraid of football, and I also don't know what footballs is. Now, look, we don't know for certain why Brian Flores didn't get these jobs, but it's clear that the Rooney Rule, despite its good intentions, has done nothing to solve the NFL's black coaching problem.
All Right, we are some great guests that are going to be on this show to help me dissect us a little bit. I'm here right now with CBS Morning's co host Nate Burleson. Nate, how you doing, brother.
I'm good man. I'm excited to be on this podcast and listen. I'm behind the velvet rope. I got the bottles with sparklers. This is the club. They already got in the club. Now this is the VIP So thank you for inviting me into the VIP section.
You don't get too excited. I know you're drinking Top Chef vodka, but it's really slowly. It's not we switched out that great.
It's water, damn.
Also a little later in the program, someone else with ties to the NFL. We'll be joined by former coach for the New York Jets and the NFL's first black woman coach, Collette V. Smith. We'll talk with Collette a little bit later about her journey through the league and her perception of race relations. But Nate, I want to start with you. Now, you did some time over there in the league, as I understanding, play a little football, put a little football, defending a little football. Now, seventy percent of the players in the NFL are black, yet they're currently only three black head coaches. There are no black owners. Shout out to Byron Allen. I know you try and you're scraping together that Weather Channel money. You're trying to buy the brocker who you know by a whole channel.
Hot whole Weather Channel.
I ain't know they was for sale. That brother dropped down three hundred million like it wasn't shit. Facts, But can you help explained the disparity in the league, you know, Nate, between the amount of black players versus black head coaches and honors, because you don't see that in the NBA, You definitely don't see that. It's there have been and there is a legacy of black managers on a regular basis through numerous baseball team. But in the NFL the disparity is huge. Why do you think that is?
You know, it's frustrating because you know, this is one hundred years of us fighting the same fight and I'm not exaggerating that point. You have to take this back to early nineteen twenties. If you're not familiar with the name Fritz Pollard, you should be. You just type his name in you'll learn a lot about the origins of African Americans trying to fight their way into this league and put their foots down. You know, he had like a herculean effort into opening the door. Fritz Pollard was the first African American to be a black quarterback in the league, be a black head coach in the league. This was before it was segregated. And then he went on to basically do his version of the Negro League for football. If you're familiar with the Chicago black Hawks and the Brown Bombers, and then the league reintegrated. That was in nineteen twenty. Now fast forward.
To this is pre twenty segregation.
You feel me, you feel me. So this was nineteen twenty when it was a lot different to be a black man, not just on a football field. We're just talking about in America. So he was fighting all types of fights. And then you had the segregation, the reintegration, and then football players being dominant on the field not being allowed in the front office. But before we get to that step, we have to think about the perception of the black man in the NFL. There was a time where they didn't think a black man was confident enough to be a quarterback in this league, and they had to play every other position because we weren't smart enough in the eyes of some. We have to fight that fight, and then black players, people that were in love with this game, raised their hand and said, you know what, I believe I can coach much more than just a position. I can coach an NFL team. The reason I wanted to give all of that background because as a player, I didn't even realize that when I was drafted in O three. When I was drafted in OLD three, I was just happy to be there. I'm a young twenty one year old and I'm sitting there trying to figure out how to establish myself as a pro and then have the longest lasting career I can. But it kind of reminds me of you ever seen the movie Pleasantville with Toby maguire and he's in this new world, Yeah, yep, and then everything made sense when the color appeared. There's a lot of parallels to that in double chandras. But the same thing for me. I got in the league and it was black and white play as long as you can make the money. And then when I started paying attention to the quote unquote color like in the movie, it hit me. I'm looking at all of these black dudes running around putting their life on the line, and then all these black players that go into coaching positions that are assistant coaches, that are helping out, that are assistance to the head coaches. But the lack of representation when it comes to head coaching jobs, it just wasn't there. And then simultaneously an O three, the Rooney Rule came and now you think, all right, cool, the Ruoney rule is here, which means, in other words, you gotta make sure you interview some candidates of color before you hire the person that you want to be your head coach.
Make sure you talk to a couple of blacks go hire.
Yeah, And I thought that this was going to be a significant change and this would be a shift, but it wasn't. Yes, there were more African Americans being interviewed and brought into the facility, but like we saw in decades prior, these owners, these gms they were hiring who they want to hire. Now, let me be honest, I have to be transparent in this. As a guy who has owned the restaurant and launched businesses, I also understand when you own something, put your heart into something, and it's your business, whether it's financial or it's a hobby, you can't hire whoever you want. But the representation of African Americans on the field is as large as seventy plus percent. You can't help but to be frustrated with how you see smart, smart players that are capable, and then they just get rejected year after year after year. And I've known players that I've played with, players that I played against that have been knocking on the doors for trying to be an head coach and just denied. So, yes, has there been changed? Of course, have we seen more head coaches? Of course, I mean how could we not. The years progress, more black coaches are hired and fired. But at the rate that we want opportunities to happen for black coaches, we have a long way to go.
Okay, So then to that point, then how has the Rooney rule hurt aspiring head black coaches? Because when you look at let's just go to Kansas City. If we're talking modern era NFL and the homo Eric being to me who has been an assistant to Andy Reid, and.
That one of the best offenses in NFL history.
Year after year after year. They've gone to two straight Super Bowls, lost when they should have won that second one. But nonetheless, if.
He contributes, you got to add that he contributes to the offensive game plan and play calling. He's not just a face on the sideline reading a paper.
Correct. Andy Reid trusts Eric make these calls are so his name was not at the top of a lot of teams lists when it came time to look for head coaches after that second Super Bowl appearance. Do you think that the Rooney rule for someone and we're not talking specifically about a brother like Eric, but do you think he just should just how many black coaches right now?
Just go?
Man? Just let me just stay where I'm man. I'm not even gonna go out there and have y'all making me look like a fool, getting my hopes up, making me think you're gonna hire me, Because how much has the Rooney rule created false hope and black candidates, thus keeping them from even going in for the interview, thus forced the team trying to meet the Rooney rul requirements to just scrape up any neat road they can find. Au You good at Madden, Right, you want to get the head coach, come on in and interview real quick for the head coach, but get the hell out of.
Hit You played two in touch resist?
Right? Yeah? Has the Rooney rule demoralized the hopes of black coaches that are qualified?
You know, Roy, you make some valid points because Eric Binemy is one of those coaches. Every single season, every single off season, I'm asking why isn't he a head coach? I can't believe it. I'm asking people that are in the business, like, what's the deal, Like, don't tell me about who he is as a person, or he's tough to get along with. Man, I've seen some jerks, I've seen some nice guys. I've seen everybody in between get hired. You're telling me one of the greatest minds that we've seen over the last decade can't land a head coaching job. When I'm seeing guys that are less qualified go there and stumble their way through a few seasons and then get fired. It's frustrating, but You're right, though.
The Lions have a coach you never coach before. Listen, not Hayton, not Cad. I'm just saying, of course, of course. Now here's the thing. You make a point about the Ruiney rule.
As as we look at it, it was supposed to be something that balanced things out right. It gave us an even playing field, as we say in sports. But if I'm Eric b Enemy and I'm getting paid a decent coin, not as much as he is a head coach, I have a guy like Andy Reid, and shout out to Andy Reid, like other coaches out there who have been at the forefront of hiring men of color, even women in their organizations.
Shout out, Bruce arians down to Tampa Bay. He left Tampa Bay black as hell.
He ain't lying, Bruce, real blue.
One a Super Bowl and go he go, Todd Bowles and here you goo Byron left with y'all handle this negros.
He ain't lying. That's Bruce Almighty right there. Bruce is actually like skinned. I don't know if you knew that, but so for for me, you look at Eric b Enemy and if he's looking at the landscape of openings, he's probably thinking to himself, I'm not gonna go in there as a token. Have you looked me in my face, pat me on my back, tell me how good I've done, and then as soon as I walk away, you make a decision that we all knew you were going to make. And that's what Brian Flora said. Brian Floyd said that, you know, that's what this has become, even though he was affording an opportunity and he felt like he was short in that opportunity because of a lot of things that happened in Miami, but he's saying, that's what this has become. As much as we wanted this Rooney rule to work, there are organizations that bring in an African American candidate just so they can check the box because they already have who they want in mind.
What is the league done or has the league done enough in your opinion to try and punish owners for not taking the Rooney rules seriously, and if not, what are some other ways that we can hold owners accountable, Because you know, Stephen Ross, the owner of the Dolphins, he was only find one point five million dollars, you know, and he suspended him for a short time, you know, for trying to pay a black coach, you know, Florida to lose game. We need you to lose games so we can get draft picks. And that's really more of a competition fine. In punishment, that's more of a you know, you're breaking the rules type thing. You know, it's let that punishment was rooted less and lack of diversity. But I think this is an issue that extends beyond the NFL. Bro How do you adjudicate diversity?
It's tough. How do you It's like, how do you tax the wealthy? You know, how do you penalize individuals that own these teams. Some in it for the right reasons. They love football, they want their organization to go down as a dynasty. Others who own teams as hobbies. This is just another business. So you're finding an owner for not meeting the qualifications of this Rooney rule, and you tell them they can't be at the facility for a few weeks in the off season. Then they'll go hang out and kick it on their yacht and then come back and get ready for a new season. I'm not sure there's something you can necessarily due to the owners, because when you're talking about fines. I can't even quantify it. You know, if you're finding a billionaire a million dollars, is that hurting his pockets? I think we all collectively can answer that. On the flip side, I think what the league has done and can continue to do more of is highlighting the candidates and telling the stories of these candidates, because whenever a head coach was high back when I was playing, it was like this story. Oh man, this this new young offensive mind. He comes from the tree of the West Coast offense. And here's his father who coached here, and he was part of the staff that won the Super Bowl, and they branched off to all these different and by the time this guy walks in the building, I'm like, damn, I know this dude's whole story. I'm a fan.
We don't be Ryan Rex Ryan exactly.
We don't do that enough for these African American and candidates of color, Like, you don't even know these stories, you know, you can't. You can't tell me much about Byron Leftwich aside from the fact that he played in the league and he was a quarterback with a big arm, and now he's helping Tom Brady eat down in Tampa as a coach. But what's the story behind him? Like, tell his story. So I know the fans understand who loved football, but these owners need to understand. Don't just go with the higher that makes you comfortable, go with the higher that is most qualified. There's a big difference.
And I think also, you know, not just going with the higher that's the most qualified, but sticking with them and giving them time to get their system and the personnel in place, which the Houston Texas didn't do. And we're gonna talk about that after the Texas. We're gonna talk about the raw deal that the Houston Texas gat. You got that black coach and then you ran his ass. This man, I'm getting upset. This is beyond the scenes. We would be right back. Welcome back to beyond the scenes. We are talking football and the lack of diversity at the head coaching and the ownership front office areas with Nate Burleson. After this break, we're also going to talk with the first black woman to be on the coaching staff of the NFL team. She is collect v Smith. But first, Nate, we've already talked about teams who's scared to hire or they have no intention of hiring a black coach. But let's talk about what happens when a black coach gets put in the game. Now that's the Southern talk right there. I know some could not coach the courch Courch the Houston Texans, they scoop up David Keully, black man and a And of course that's the other thing. When a black man gets hired. Boy, the press releases, get the flying board, look at the NFL and diversity, and we're doing it. And we've ended racism with this higher one season four and thirteen, and he was let go by the Texans for what was called quote philosophical differences. How do you feel about the recent conversations around black coaches being scapegoaded for lackluster production? And do you think that they are given the same amount of runway? Yeah, you know, I'm just being honest. Are they given the same amount of runway as white coaches to have time to get things right?
In my time in the NFL? The answers, No, I don't think so, just because of what I've seen. You gave one example, and of course they did hire Lovey Smith, another black coach who's been in the system. So I even though I want everybody to get paid and lovely Smith is a guy that players have spoke highly about, so I have nothing bad to say about him. But I do like fresh blood. So you know, seeing him get hired is great, But I would love the next generation of coaches to come behind him. I'll give you another one. Steve Wilkes was hired by the Arizona Cardinals and he was fired after one season. I remember that because it was a big deal. I'm like, Okay, the Cardinals got a new coach, Okay, Steve Wilkes, all right, and then they go three and thirteen. I believe. Now, three and thirteen is not a good record. We get that, But what are you supposed to do? How are you supposed to turn around a squad in one year? How are you supposed to fix things in one year? How are you supposed to, for the example, in Houston, change the quote unquote culture that is the philosophy of football in an organization if you only have one year. There has never been this this meteoric turnaround in one season when a coach is working with all of the drama that we've seen some of these coaches work with. Now This isn't woe is me? All right? These coaches, they they walk away with a little chunk of change. But I want to see coaches have the same amount of time to turn turn things around as some of these white coaches. And I'm not saying that hasn't been done, you know, because a lot of people are saying, what about Marvin Lewis. Marvin Lewis was he was out in cincinnaty forever and they didn't go to the playoffs. They didn't want a playoff game? Like what about Marvin? And it's like, I just say, there's but there's always any there's an example. There's always an example to point to. But you can't point to one coach and say see, like here you are. It's like it's like somebody saying, see I got a black friend that coaches. You know, it works.
I think you also have to have a patient and tolerant ownership, which is what I think the Brown family in Cincinnati exhibited in showing that they are not here to just oh, one bad season, get your ass on, because it's not like the NFL. It's not like college football where you lose two years in a row, Like all right, dog, the fans are turning on this to me, the NFL fans are the NFL fansy. Here's an off the wall question. Do you think the high expectations of black coaches as soon as they come into the league is set because Mike Tomlin won the Super Bowl in his second year with the Steelers. Then Mike Tomlin for the next fifteen seasons, for fifteen seasons, has not had a losing season. Do you think it's Mike Tomlin's fault for being too good? Mike Tomlin, are you listening to me right now? Listen, Mike Tomlin, we need you to lose. Okay, we need to to go. We need you to go two and fifteen the next three years in a row for do it for black people. Mike Tomlin.
Okay, he said the bar too heart, he said the bar too hot. Listen, and he get up there, he gets the saying in words, he were like, listen, you don't want to paint the team with the brush. I call him Baraco Tomlin because he go out there and win them games and then he'll talk to eight. Listen, they might have a bad game after you get there and listen to me, like, you know what he alright, I'm good with the stealers.
But Tomalin has done something and I'm joking, of course.
He's done something very special. Yeah, you have to get him credit.
Stop tweeting me still, this fan, I know you better tweet because I'm gonna give Tomlin the props because he picked up Brian Flores after the Miami fiasco and said, hey, brother, come be on my staff, come join us. How much when we talk about diversifying and creating more of these qualified you know, applicants, And we spoke last break about what Bruce Arians was doing in Tampa with Todd Bowles being down there, and Bowles was a former coach of the Jets and things didn't go right for him when he was coaching the Jets, and you have Byron left with in that system. How much of changing the culture at the head coaching position requires diversifying the offensive staff positions as well. Like because Andy Reid blackened up his staff, Aaron Arians blackened up his staff, Tom Lowres insulated with a couple other you know and Flores isn't the only one. How much of that is part of the solution to this issue.
I think that's a huge part of it because head coaches have so much influence because when a head coach is successful, you listen to what they say about the ex's and o's. Bruce Arians can stand up in front of the media and say, I would like to shout out my special teams coach, my defensive coordinator, and my offensive coordinator that are all black, three black coordinators for his squad and say, these guys are the main reason why we are successful. And immediately, as fans, as people who sit outside the game, your eyes turned to those coaches. We start paying attention to left, which more than ever before. We start looking at bulls and say, you know what, he's pretty damn good. Maybe we gave him a raw deal when he was coaching for the Jets. We start looking at these coaches in a different light, and it is up to these head coaches that are in these positions to bring up and highlight these candidates of color. So you know, I hope that what we see over the next handful of years will change. It's funny, though, Roy, because every time the season nears and end, we hear about these young black coaches. A lot of the former players who are tremendous coordinators defensive side of the ball, off side of the ball, and we're like, oh, we got some good candidates.
Maybe let's go seven to eleven.
And we crap out and we're sitting back where we started, and it's only three or four coaches that get hired at the most. But I do feel like there is there is a shift coming. And I'm not being this this eternal optimist because I played in the league and I'm working for the machine. One thing I pride myself on is being honest, even if it's with my former employee, the NFL. But I do feel like change is coming. But well, let me ask you this, because I'm a fan. Like I told you the first time we met a while ago, I'm a fan of you. I'm a fan of the genre. I'm a fan of comedy and general I'm a huge fan of stand up. Stand up. Not saying that there hasn't been discrimination or racism or even segregation. We know the history of where it was and where it is now. But I feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong. If you're good, and you grind and you improved, you could make enough noise to where the opportunities come undeniable and you be f an undeniable, but in football you can be be enemy Eric, be enemy, be undeniable and still not get an opportunity. Is there a parallel when it comes to comedy in sports? Or is comedy? Is comedy changed? Is the game changed for comedy?
Social media created a new democracy that allowed for places for artists who don't necessarily get the same mainstream exposure. Like if we're gonna go big picture, we could make the argument that Bernie Mack was denied for a very long time until Kings of Comedy and Spike Lee came along, and then even to a degree Bernie had to draft off of Steve Harvey sitcom success in d Hubley sitcom success and said being on Steve sitcom for white execs to go, what about that fourth one over there?
Yeah, what about the dark skun?
He got a show in him. And even then it took Larry Willmore, who was a vouch for and bonafid Hollywood writer at that time, for him to pair it with Bernie and create what we know is the Bernie mac Show. So you know, that's kind of the approach of being denied but getting but get an assist or someone else having to go, no trust us, Bernie's the guy versus when you look modern age, I would say, you know, probably one of the quickest equivalencies I would make would be the eighty five South Show, which a lot of people listening to us right now don't know about what these brothers do. Television broadcast numbers on you to or the try guys will get there.
But these show and they tour, and they toured the country.
Correct so and they sell twenty five hundred, three thirty five hundred seats eighty five South and they have not had any mainstream television exposure except for wiling out with Nick Cannon. Right, So, if you are good enough, the people choose in entertainment, if anything, entertainment is set up where the people have more power than the ownership. And if I have an audience, you can't deny me. In fact, you want me more because you think my audience is going to now come to your network. So there is a worth in that. Whereas in sports, the fans are the most powerless because the ownership knows that the fans will watch regardless. The NFL knows that they know that regardless of what you do, you just you might not watch the whole game, all right, you might check in on highlights, but when we get that good free agent signing, your ass gonna be back. And there's a lot of morality. There's a lot of things that teams do that where you can question the morality versus trying to win. Be it racism or be it just like you signed this player that committed that crime or did that thing, how dare you? But people still rock with that team because they know the fans will be there, especially if they win, especially if they win. Television and movies is different, bro, because if I got an audience, low key, I don't.
Need you, you need me.
And that's why you see a lot of social media stars who get cast and a lot of mainstream stuff because they need that. The studios need access to their audience and to their reach and the things that they do, you know. And so I think that you know, to a degree, there's still a lot of racism and not a lot of black decision makers at the top of a lot of these entertainment structures. But at the end of the day, I think that I have way more of a chance of getting put on and getting diverse and getting diversified Ray made away for herself. Quinta Brunton made away for herself, you know which, oddly enough, both of those women also still have ties back to Larry Wilmore. But in terms of creating an audience and a buzz for herself, those two women were self made and they just woke up every day with a camera with whatever lights they could afford at the time and created content until people started rocking with them.
And so.
It's tough. It's like, at least, I pretious way entertainer has an advantage over a black coach. I can at least get myself to second base without a vouch.
Now you're preaching, You're preaching, and listen. You opened up you know this podcast today's episode by mentioning the lack of not just black head coaches, but then went on to say no ownership. I mean there's also there's also this this like glaring, like bolded font that you see when you realize there are no black owners in the NFL. When I know that there's wealthy black men and black men and women excuse me, black men and women that want to be majority owners, I'm not saying, I mean correct that I know there might be minority owners, but majority owners. And I think there also needs to be more of that because listen, the only way you shake some of these very loaded phrases that people throw around, like the good Old Boys Club, the only way that professional sports can shake that is by diversifying yourself. And if you're looking at the numbers, we've seen the studies, diversification when it comes to the corporate infrastructure oftentimes breeds more success. So I know that the bottom line is to sell tickets right and have good football, and then you've got to get the merchandise off and you want this organization to go from being what the Cowboys used to be to a four or five six billion dollar brand. Okay, diversify your product, and I guarantee these organizations will see more success than they've ever seen.
How much. Here's an off the wall question, and I think it's from a political standpoint where we're eventually headed as a people when it comes to race and identity as the next generation of black people and mixed race people and bipops, et cetera, start matri relating into you know, their adult lives. The coach for the Dolphins, Michael McDaniel, who is one of three head coaches that are black in the league, he got Lovey in Houston. You got Mike Tomlin. Excuse me, well, you say Baraco Tomlin. Baraco Tomlin and Pittsburgh and Michael McDaniel. And Michael McDaniel has a black father, but he doesn't necessarily choose to identify as black. He doesn't deny it, but he out and black college. You gotta put gravy and I like biscuit to that, like he's not black that.
It would be a little odd though, if he hasn't been doing his whole life and a reporter asked a question, He's like, my brother, good question, all.
Right, But he is. He does check the boxes per the Rooney rule.
And no, I'm not I'm not I'm not.
I'm not dumping on him. What I'm what I'm what. The question I'm getting at is how black? Does that even matter in terms of the league is pushing his identity more than he's pushing it him self. But grind, do you think the league chooses to do that?
I think we know the answer to that. The league choose to do that, it is because it's it's another box checked. And Mike McDaniel you know, he's an individual that didn't lean on that throughout his coaching career. It wasn't like hey, yo, man, you know, it's like what was that movie? A soul man. He's not moving around like you know, hey, hey you hey my brother. Yeah. But and Mike McDaniel was just a guy that that's grinded. He's grinded more than more than his race checking the box. He is a recipient of that tree that I was talking about earlier. You have to think about uh Al Shanahan who coaches the Niners, Sean McVay, who coaches the Rams, and Mike McDaniel were all on the same staff in Washington. They were part of this this group that saw some offensive success and they and organizations were like, okay, that was a really good offense. Let me pluck from that staff. And it just so happened that on that staff we're three very intelligent, young, offensive minded white coaches. They can't help the color they skin, they can't help the system they're in, and they for damn sure aren't gonna apologize for having a successful offense. The difference is there should be more eyes on successful offenses that are loaded with African American coaches as well.
Where do we And this is the last question. I know, I know we have to get you out of here and we got to talk to all the world. This is a question. That's where I'm trying to figure out. To listen, I'm trying to help you keep your job. Like every every question I ask you, I'm righty head, I'm going make sure Nate can keep his job, make sure Nate keeps getting invited to NFL honors during pro both.
I'm good, I'm good, ask away, bro, be honest, I got you.
I'm trying to get to the importance of how having a black head coach, or having black coaches period on your staff makes your team better in a league with majority black players. Yeah, when you were playing, how much more? And this goes back to college too. We can go all the way back to the age just here to just talk about your time in the NFL. Just as a footwall. Let's go back to Pop Warner all the way to CEFL with you. Did you feel a different connection when you had black coaches in any capacity on the staff? Was there a different as a black player, was there a different connection? Was there anything that resonated for you in that time.
Of course, Listen, representation matters on every level. When you walk in and you see somebody that looks like you, there's a confort level there that you immediately embrace. You know, that doesn't mean that every black coach is going to identify with every black player. I mean there's some black coaches who didn't come from struggle, and they're not going to be able to talk to a kid that was raised in a house full of six brothers and sisters and they were on welfare. Maybe a black coach that was raised in bell there won't be able to talk to that kid in the way that he needs to. Maybe there's a white coach that struggled and grew up in harsh conditions and might be able to talk to that black kid a little bit more intimately. But when you have representation of African American coaches on your staff in the team, when you sit in that locker room and you're taking your cleats off and you look around and you see a sea of black people sprinkled in with some white players, you would hope that your staff also reflects that one because you feel like it's only fair. I mean, the odds are that all of these black players that love the game so much that literally put all their eggs in this basket. Once that basket was empty, went and got some more football legs to put it in, and then once they retired, they went and got them retirement football legs to put it in that same ba. These same players are some of the most beautiful I'm talking about Russell Crowe, beautiful minds that could coach at the next level. So we when we don't see that, we're like, all right, so we're good enough to go out here and get paid to play, but we're not good enough to get paid to leave. So's there lies the resentment and anger. But when you do have that, it's just different. Like you can walk upstairs and I can talk to a white coach and we can sit there and chop it up about anything, and I might have something that might be a little bit more personal. And I can go out his office and walk to a coach like Sean Jefferson, who was my receiver's coach, black former player who is still coaching the league, and I can walk in his office and have a completely different conversation because there's that connection. Coaches that understand that and they diversify their staff. There's less friction, there's more cohesiveness, there's less issues off the field, because it's one thing for you know, let me, let me keep it all the way one hundred. It's one thing for a coach to look at a young black player who never had money and tell him what he should be doing, how he should be moving, how he should be acting. Another thing for a black man to talk to a young black man who might not have necessarily had an older brother or father figure or someone to speak encouragement, intelligence, to speak great vibrations into this man's life. It's different when a black coach does that. Like I've had those moments where a black coach will walk in after something happening over the weekend and he'd be like, hey, listen, listen, man, close close them books up. We'll watch film in a little bit, and y'all better tighten up. You see what happened this weekend. See old boy wilding out there in the streets. He's done. He's done that contract that he thought he was gonna get. No more. Mark my worse, he will never play again. So if y'all at a round and fumble this bag like we tell you not to fumble of football, you'll be sitting at home at your mama house. So don't walk around here with your chest out your chin up thinking you God's gift to football. Because the game was here before you, it will continue while you're here, and for damn, sure's gonna continue afterwards. That's different when you look in at someone that almost looks like a mirror reflection. So that's to answer your question a very long winded way. That's why it's important to have that representation. And you see you see that, Like, I'm not saying that that Tampa doesn't have any issues, but Tampa got a lot of black coaches. I don't see Tampa Bay Buccaneers wilding out. Now there's also leadership Bruce Arians and there's Tom Brady who comes in as a veteran. He's been there, done that, of want some Super bowls. Tom could tell people like, look at the way we do it. The way we win it is we tighten up in all areas on and off the field. Okay, cool, But there's also like it's just different when you when you see people that look like you speaking life into you.
Yes, sir, well, I respect that Also you know Tom Brady dedicated, he gave up his marriage.
Okay, listen, they working it out. They working it out. That's what we heard. Word on the street.
We Nate bros. And thank you so much. We love you every morning on CBS Mornings. I appreciate it sitting the best of everybody over there, Gale and everybody else and the homie Blad, everybody over there.
Yeah, no doubt. I'll tell Blad and Gail and Tony you said, what's up? And listen Before you get me out of here, I just want to say I appreciate you being a fan of yours for a long time. I know you have been doing this for decades and a lot of the work that you have done not everybody sees. But you are one of the leaders, not just in a comedic space, but I've seen you grow into this businessman who works in front of the camera and behind it. And I don't know if you get your flowers a lot, but you deserve it, man, You deserve it. Anytime I see your name or hear your voice, my ears perk up, man, because I know you are either going to be dropping knowledge, are you gonna have me in tears and That's quite the combination.
Brother, Thank you so much for that, and I appreciate you for coming and going beyond the scenes with us, no doubt. Let me get some free NFL tickets.
I got you, tell me the game, I got you Dolphin.
Tell me the Dolphins just came to New York. Damn. Never mind next season. After the break, we will speak with Collect V. Smith, who was the first black woman coach in the NFL during her time with the New York Jets. We'll talk with her after the break. We'll be right back beyond the scenes. We are back now. We are still talking about black coaches in the NFL. Joining me now is a former coach for the New York Jets, and you know what, the way the Jets looking these days, she might need to go on go back talk to them a little bit. But more importantly, she was the first black female coach in the NFL. Collect V. Smith, Court Smith, how you doing today?
What's happening in roy Wood? Is nice to see, I'm doing good.
Now.
Is the job occupation of coach like president, where even when you're not doing it no more, you are still coach And.
Absolutely nobody wants to come to my house to watch football because I'm pausing, muting, freezing the frame, checking out the alignment, that foot positioning, and people get maagged and I'm like, you could leave my house. It's fine.
Why are you having a tape session in the middle of a Super Bowl party? Coach? That's not how you're supposed to watch football. It is that what did you and your ass need to go in another room like Peyton Manning and them. You need to have a separate Manning cast the rest of us.
I take notes.
I send notes to my former players wherever they are with the Bears, the Seahawks. I'm like, I was watching your game. Here's what you did wrong, Here's what you did right. I can't help myself.
So at that time, you were one of one, you know, in terms of becoming I mean, the first black female coach to be in the NFL ranks. How did you get there? But more importantly, did you ever realize how much of a unicorn you were while you were setting down this path?
You know what?
I never I never thought about that I might have been a unicorn in this arena. For me, I just loved football, and I started playing football when I was forty two.
Years old professionally at least.
You know, I played with the boys in the street when I was a kid, but I wasn't allowed to play organized football with Pop Warner, How absurd is that?
So for instance, and Pop warners an age where the girls are bigger than the boys, that.
Part we outgrow boys in the early stages.
You're right, but I wasn't allowed to play organized So being a coach in the NFL was not a dream. How could I have that dream? That dream was stolen from me. So, you know, Billy Jan King, Billy Chin King, was the one that brought it to my attention that I was the first black woman to coach NFL history, And I looked at him like she was crazy.
So you started playing organized ball at forty two? First off, what leagues are going on for forty two year old women? Where? What was this? How did that? Because I love football? I watched that video game football they showing the weird video game channel. It's like watching people play.
Well, that's so dope. It is fly, that's fly.
Yeah.
But it's not necessarily a league for women in their forties. It's just a league for women so eighteen and older. And there is no cutoff.
So if you're.
Capable physically capable to do this and you make the tryouts, you're in.
So I was the old check on the team.
So you play, you leave, and then at that point is it the traditional post playing trajectory that you had the same as the men where you played organized and then you find your way into different organizations that you know, any of the women that were coaching in the league at the time just set up the bread crumbs of how you end up in the office of the New York Jets and then going to you you're hired.
So when I started playing football professionally, I wasn't a great player, but I was a great scholar of the game. So I had more bench time than I did on field time. But I was watching film, and I was studying our opponents, and I was reading the playbook and asking questions.
And so eventually, when.
I retired from playing women's pro football, I went into coaching my women's team, which was scary as hell, but wow, because my teammates, my peers, these are players that play better than me.
But I knew what to do. In my brain.
My body was like, we ain't having that, you know, So It was scary to go from your girl like what up, homie, to Okay, I need two lines right now. We're working on w drills, recovering deep paths today, line up. That was hard to do. So eventually I made that happen. It was a hard transition, but I was up for the challenge. Eventually, my women's team had made me the executive director over marketing, PR events, all of this stuff. So being a Jets fan, a lifelong tired Jets fan, I reached out to the New York Jets to say, hey, look we need some help over here were your sisters, what's up? And I probably wore them out, like I was calling, calling, calling, calling, and I believe they were just like, let me just call this chick back, because she gonna keep calling if we don't just give her a call.
But when they called me, we were cool. They loved me rightfully.
So and I got invited to a Jets practice and at Roy.
At that time, I was like, I'm busy. I'm doing real estate, I'm doing football, I'm coaching, I'm doing the marketing. I don't got time of this. Then when I thought.
About it, I said I could learn from NFL coaches, so I could bring that high level of coaching skills back to my women.
So I went.
But what ended up happening was I met the then head coach of the New York Jets, coach Todd Bowles, one of the very few black men that are in head coach positions, and he and I talked.
Shot, he's in Tampa Bay now, yes, and.
He's got his championship ring, yeah he does. But so I got hired directly through him. I didn't come through a program. I didn't come from anybody's you know, from the Rooney rule or the.
Bill Watson, the initiative, and right.
I came in because I had a jackhammer, you know that. I just came banging on in and we talked shop and he realized I was serious about this and I knew my stuff, so he gave me a shot.
Okay. But then, being that you didn't come through those traditional avenues of hire or the let's just call it the affirmative action highway for lack of a better phrase, did that gain you more respect or less respect from the other players and coaches while you were within the Jets organization? Like how much how you were hired Bowles brought you in so to a degree that protects you because people have to trust you based on his pedigree. Correct, But when Bowles ain't around, everybody knows that the energy can sometimes shift. So how respected were you within the organization amongst the other players and coaches because you're the first black woman to be on an NFL sideline like this is not yeah, this is new for them too.
Yeah, totally. You know, I came in.
All of the players gave me the utmost respect, and I don't think anybody knew per se that I didn't come in through a program, that I was hired directly through their head coach. That wasn't talked about. If it was, I wasn't in that room, we're on that phone call. But the players were great. You know, to be very clear here, there's always going to be one sucker. One God is hard to deal with, and I had one. He was a coach and he did not make my life comfortable by any means, and he let me know it, and that was challenging.
Do you think how much of that was based on you snuck in because you're a woman or just because you're ae, Like you didn't go through what I considered it be the proper trajectory, or was it strictly flat out you're a woman. I don't care what you know. I don't care how cool your schemes are and what plays you draw up. You need to be in the kitchen.
Yeah, you know what, I really don't know why. I believe it's because who she thinks she is. And when I tell you our very first conversation with this particular coach, he looked at me.
I never forget.
He was sitting there at his desk like this, and I walked in excited, and I was like, I know where you played, I know where your coach, I know where you're scouted.
I've been following you.
I did my research. And he looked at me and then he turned back to the computer like I wasn't even there. And I backpedal. So, if anybody knows anything about football, playing a defensive back, that's what I played and coached. I backpedaled out the office, like what intire nation is going on? I'm thinking I'm getting hazed or this is a joke.
Yeah, he kept it going.
He kept it going.
Talk to me a little bit just in terms of persevering through that and being a woman in that space, because like, if there's people like that within an organization, then there have to be people like that in theory somewhere in the front offices, which means there has to be people like that on high in New York at the NFL, at the league office level. So like when we look at the Rooney Rue. We were talking earlier than Nate about the Rooney rule, Like, you know, do you think that's still effective in terms of figuring out a way to create a diversity pipeline into the NFL? Or have team figured out a way around it? Like they kind of like kind of like what the Brian flore Is Dolphins lawsuit where you interviewed me but you already knew who you was gonna hire and you just brought me in on a dummy run. Like it's the Rooney rule still doing anything to fix the problems.
I think without the Rooney Rule, we'd have less minorities in the NFL. I think there should be more, but I think that people have learned the loopholes around the Rooney Rule, you know, I mean, it's disgusting what goes on, but what happens is it's a good old boys club. Right, it's a good old boys club. I know you from LSU or from Oklahoma State or New Ohio State, or you're my child hood friend or right, and that part of nepotism.
Right.
I'm happy the Rooney rule is there, but I don't think it's being utilized completely the right way.
Right. And so we're.
Always on a continuous When I say we, I mean black folks, We're always trying to prove ourselves all the time. There are some skilled as coaches that need to be in head coach positions, right, but we have more work to do. You know, we can't micromanage everybody. And the end of the day, you know, a franchise, a particular team should have some kind of right to how they handle their team, but you have to abide by these rules.
So they're finding loopholes.
How much you know? And again your situation was a little different on how you got in with the Jets, But how much does the Ruiney rule also create a traumatic experience for the black of women candidates for these jobs by giving them false hope and then having it dashed. Does that make it worse for black and women candidates trying to enter into the league.
No, that's life.
That's what we've experienced our whole life, right, whether it be corporate level. I know that firsthand. You know, I could come in more qualified than the next person.
For a corporate job.
In youre in Manhattan and I don't get the job, and I find out who did, I'm like, I'm more qualified than she is. So this is not I'm not new to that game. Probably most of us are not new to that game. I think just having our foot in the door can't actually bring us more hope. Like I was close, So I'm gonna keep pounding.
Okay, But then to that point, does it because based on what you said, what you said, an assistant coach at the Jets giving you the ice grill, even though you were qualified, even though you came in baptized with the blessings of his boss. Does this new rule? So the NFL got this new rule right where all thirty two teams you got to either have a female or a personal color as an offensive assistant. This is mandated diversity. Those candidates who are hired based on that mandate. Of course, it increases the number of coaching opportunities, you know whatever, Like you can build your way up. But art does that force them into a hostile work environment? Is it a good way to increase numbers.
I mean, I think it's a great way to increase numbers.
But listen, it's a roll of the dice. You know.
I could be mandated to be hired by the Rooney rule. Okay, by the mandate I'm in here, and you don't like that. But I'm going to come in here and work my butt off and you're going to see why I'm here.
Right.
It's just fair. It's just completely fair. And so I mean, I don't think anything scares us. What I don't think about the future like that when it comes to well, it might be hostile, it might not be this.
Coach that that was wronging. I'll tell you something, Roy.
My dad and I would speak on the phone every night and say, hey, how was it? He would ask me, how was it today? I'm like, oh, my god, it's great. I love it. I love it. I love it and I love it more. But there's this one jerk. And after a few days of this, or a week or two of this, my dad was like, why don't you speak to you know, why don't you tell Bowles and I said, I'm the only woman coach up in here. I'm not about to be like.
He's not treating me nice.
I'm not gonna be that jick. So I just dealt with it the best I could. Coach Bowls knew nothing about it. Other coaches saw the way he would treat me. These players saw it, you know. And it wasn't like he was he was saying anything nasty to me. His look alone was almost like shut up. Or if I was coaching, he would walk in and roy and give me a look.
And then I was like, do you think that I think I know the answer to this question. But if I'm thinking and I know our listeners are thinking this, or I got to ask you, what responsibility, if any, do the other staffers have to making sure that diversity hires are treated with some degree of respect or is it not the responsibility to go around and police every meaning within the organization.
As a human being.
I think everybody has a responsibility to check that right. But then as a coach, we don't have time to be arned about outside things that are actually inside. But we're getting our job done. So the other coaches that saw it, that may have seen it they would look like to him, and then we would do some strategizing on special teams. So you know, everybody was just trying to stay dedicated to the game plan at hand, and that was to have the best team and create the best players that we can get.
So by solving the problem, it almost creates a distraction to a degree, correct within the organization. Yeah, well, there has been some degree of progress. Last in the league we had six women coaches. This year there's fifteen. Are you happy with the increase in women coaches since you became a coach? But more importantly is what's happening now with the thirty two team mandate? Is that the best way to achieve diversity in the league.
Listen, any way to get us in there is the best way. Otherwise we wouldn't have been right. So listen, If I.
Had it my way, I would drive up with a van filled with serious women coaches, and I drive to every team. Every franchise team would say here, you got to bye, And I did not drive to the next team.
The newspaper delivery, you're just throwing just throwing women out the window like a news So then let's let's let's end here. Why why is it important for the NFL to hold the team owners accountable, you know, to the diversity and inclusion regulation that they put in place, because you can have all these regulations, but if ownership gonna work around, and what the hell are we accomplishing? Like when you look at like and I know this isn't apples to apples when you look at what's happening in the NBA with the Phoenix signs and you have an owner that is now being forced to sell his team on some Donald Sterling La Clippers esque. We found racism in the documents, and then the John Gruden being forced to resign from the Las Vegas Raiders because we found racism in the document and then the Washington Commanders right being rumored to have a bunch of nonsense being going on behind the scenes that's rooted in a lot of racism and discrimination. So you know, how important is it that the league do what they need to do to make sure that the owners are held accountable?
Vitally vitally important. And I'm down with that life. I'm down with it because if we don't get it checked, if the NFL league as a whole does not check these owners these team owners. It will just keep happening and we'll be nowhere further in twenty years than we were fifty years ago.
So that's progress to me. I'm excited. Listen.
I'm extremely proud of what the NFL is trying to do to make positive change within this league for diversity and inclusion.
I lie one more question. Do you think the fans care? Do you think they know or care about the imbalanced ratio between coaches and players.
Not all the fans give a crap. Not all of them give a crap. They just want to see their team win. But I tell you this, the black fans care, and the women care. And if you think about this, women make up damn near fifty percent of viewership purchasing of apparel paraphernalia.
So they better treat us right.
And listen, if we were all to get together, we be in the minority, Ain't I said?
Ain't we ain't the minority. Let's be very clear about that.
So y'all are the fiscal majority. But when it comes to staff, and y'all two percent?
Hell up, right, So we've.
Hired our one woman. Perhaps you would like to be a lowly paid cheerleader for seventy five dollars a game.
That's a damn shame. They're athletes.
And while we're talking about the cheerleaders, I don't care.
Look, put some clothes on them chicks.
Okay, now hang on, now, you slow down. Now, man, I was with you. Now, look, I've been with you this whole conversation. You're starting to lose me. Okay, but listen.
If that's the case, I would love to see the players walking around or run around the field in the jockstrap.
Okay, we don't do that.
Put some clothes on those women.
Oh goodness. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. And let's not think the next time we see each other at the NIXT game a year from now.
Please I'll see you that here, please, yes, sir.
Let V Smith excuse me, coach always once a coach, always coached. Also, let V Smith, thank you so much for going beyond the scenes with us today, and also thank you to the homie Nate, and thank you the listener for going beyond the scenes. We'll see you later. Listen to the Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcasts, the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you get your podcasts.