Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes. This is the podcast that goes deeper into segments and topics that aired originally on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah that this this is what this podcast is like. All right, So, like you have had a chicken pot pie, and I'm not talking about a frozen pot pie. I'm talking about one of them homemade straight out the oven pop pies, one of them pop pies made from somebody in a good marriage. Then then the best taste in pot pies. And so you have a pot pie and it's good, but you never know whether or not there's crust on the bottom of the pope pie dish. Right, that's what this podcast is. It's surprised it's cross on the bottom too, because everybody likes mo crust, and that's what this podcast is. It's the mo crust of the Daily Show universe. I'm Roy Wood Jr. And in honor of Women's History Month, we're taking a look at the powerful and influential roles that the first ladies have played throughout history. The clip the first lady. It's not a job that's actually in the constitution, but that's just because in women hadn't been invented yet, and even though first Lady is not an official role, they've been important figures in the country from the very beginning. Maybe the most fascinating thing about first ladies is that even though no one votes for them and they kind of make up the job as they go, just by virtue of being married to the president, they can end up having a lot more power than many elected officials. The First Lady is the most powerful woman in the country because she has the ear first thing in the morning and last thing at night of the most powerful man in the country. Going back to the very first first Lady, Martha Washington and the second mont Abigail Adams, both of them were politically involved. They were involved in cabinet decisions, they were involved in campaigning. These women were political partners. Nancy Reagan was pulling a lot of the strings, calling many of the shots. From President Ronald Reagan's first campaign for the White Horse back in nineteen eighty to his Cold War ending triumph in nineteen seven. Hillary Clinton became more involved, obviously in policymaking than any first lady before her. She had an office in the West Wing. Bill Clinton even ran on the slogan by One Get One Free. In nineteen nineteen, Edith Wilson was unofficially running the country after her husband Woodrow suffered a stroke. Today, I'm joined by Daily Show producer and very sad Tampa Bay Buccaneers fan because Brady retired, Jeff Gusso, Jeff, welcome to the show. How you been, I'm good man. How you doing? Roy? Okay, Look, it's it's Blady has been going about a month. Man. It's okay, Man. You gotta get past it, you know. I'm sure the bucks will suck again next year. So we're also joined by CNN contributor and New York Times bestselling author of the book First Women, The Grace and Power of America's modern First Ladies and the resident, Kate Anderson Brawer. Thank you for joining us and going beyond the scenes with us today. How are you? I'm great, Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited the elegance. You hear that, Jeff, elegance? This can be a good ass conversation. So Jeff, before I get to you, ladies, first, Kate, help us for the people who don't know myself included, help us understand the role of the first lady. You know, it's it's it's unpaid first and foremo we want to talk about some inequity. It's an unelected role there. There really doesn't seem to be a rule book on what you can and can't or should and shouldn't do. But yet everybody has an opinion on what a first Lady should or shouldn't be doing. So what are some of the expectations of the role. Well, it's a very archaic, old fashioned title, right, you know. Jackie Kennedy said that she never wanted to be called first Lady. It sounded like a saddle horse. She said, it was like a demeaning name. Um it's very arcane because people don't understand it, and even years of studying it myself, I found it to be completely dependent on the person who has the position. Um. One. One person wrote to Betty Ford, who was First Lady in the seventies, and said, you're constitutionally required to be perfect, and I think that kind of sums it up. They are supposed to be ideal wives and mothers, the symbol of what it is to be an American woman, juggling everything, and each of them fails in their own way and I think they they feel as though, UM, after a little bit of time in the position, that they just have to make it their own and do what they want with it, because, as Rosalind Harter said, no matter what, you're going to be criticized. And you know, there's a lot of sexism obviously and UM in the world still, and I think that there's a sense that each woman UM is held up to these very unfair expectations, and so they have to make the role their own. And there's nothing in the constitution that describes what they have to do, so they can do a little like Milannia Trump for instance, or as much like Eleanor Roosevelt or Hillary Clinton or Michelle Obama, these women that really took the role incredibly seriously. So it just depends on each woman. Yeah, because you know Michelle Obama, you know she it was the school Lunch Initiative, you know, healthier nutrition, you know that Let's Move program. You know, you look at everything that Betty Ford was doing with regards to you know, just being vocal about women's issues. We don't have to talk about Nancy Reagan and just say no, we know the history of that. How do some of the expectations of the first lady play into some of the gender norms and gender roles that I believe a lot of women are trying to break out of, or at least trying to change what the base level expectations are of a first because you know, they're responsible for a lot of the domestic duties in the white not literally cleaning and cooking, but organizing the social events and oh, you got to decorate the tree, and we have to make sure everything is set for dinner. Like how much of those expectations are part of the role. I mean. One of the funniest things that happened during the Trump administration was when Milannia, you know there, was caught talking to a friend on the phone and saying something about how she just didn't want to deal with the stupid Christmas decorations. And I think everyone was like a gat at that because that's what the job is, and it just looked bad too. They say, I'm more uncompleted. I'm the same like him. I support him. I don't say enough, I don't do it enough. No, it's I put I'm working like a I asked my ass, I know Christmas stuff that you know who gives about Christmas stuff and decoration, but I need to do it right. But I mean, look at Michelle Obama. She was making you know, almost three hundred thousand dollars at the University of Chicago Medical Center in their communications office. She went to Harvard Princeton. She's incredibly well educated, and yet her role was in many ways to just take care of the daughters. And there's nothing wrong with that. The mother and chief role that Michelle Obama took up was really powerful, especially for you know, a black woman. I thought that that was really important for her to make this point that she was going to focus on her daughters, and there was nothing wrong with that. I think that you have to be able to just accept women doing as much or as little as they want. Then you see Hillary Clinton, who had an office in the West Wing and she always regretted having that office because she realized that she overstepped that the American people were not ready for it. And I think that's unfortunate, right that we haven't movieyond that. And I think it's going to take a first gentleman, if that's what we call him, to like be okay with a woman doing as much or as little as she as she wants. I mean, if Bill Clinton were first gentleman, I think that no one would be expecting him to be you know, baking cookies, arranging the Christmas decorations, signing the White House, the lan That's why, Jeff that That's why I was like, in a weird way during the last election, I was kind of pulling for Corey Booker just because I wanted the chaos of an unmarried man in the White House, Like, who's gonna do what if? Like granted News in a relationship with Rosario Dawson at the time, but you know, are you still a first lady if your first girlfriend? Like I wanted chaos? Dude? What was like the main inspiration for putting this piece together? Um, and just talk to us a little bit about the ideation of that at the Daily Show. Yeah, I mean, you know, it was about November, the election. I think it just happened, and we were sort of like looking at like all the changes that were about to happen with Joe Biden and Dr Joe Biden coming in uh in January, and I think we were trying to like, you know, we just wanted to focus on, like what is this role. What is this handoff between Melannia Trump to Joe Biden? And you know, what is the history? What are the expectations? Four years of Donald Trump and Melania Trump had been so chaotic and like, was what Melanie Trump did normal? Was it not normal? What is expected? Joe Biden? So we wanted to honor these ladies, but we also wanted to get the crux of, like, you know, how the job can be good and how the job can be bad. You know, give it, you know, give people a full sense of it, you know, which is difficult in ten minutes. But you know, that was the big idea of what we were trying to get to. It's interesting because you know, it's a role where you know, traditionally they all have to champion some sort of social cause, you know, and you know, and that's been the tradition of Traditionally, you have to have something that you really give a lot of extra give a damn about, and you have to roll out a plan about that to the American people over the next four years and hopefully with no scandals messing it up in the meantime. But I feel like the role has evolved over the years. What are some of the ways that first ladies. Um just in the research that you've seen, Jeff, what are some of the ways that the first ladies have kind of made this role their own? And I would love to hear from you as well on that case. When we were developing the piece chronologically, when we had like Ellen or Roosevelt, like that was a big one that like there was so much to unpack and we felt like that was really like where it changed, where it was like more front, where he could be visibly like, uh, you know, pushing for these causes and you know, advocating on beliefs. Each one made it their own, and so like the connecting line through them all was like they each had their cause like that they would believe in. They were supporting their their husbands and the presidents, but they were also like advocating for like women's issues and social causes that like would help further. You know generations from the earliest days America's first ladies who were referred to as lady presidentialists or Republican queen. The term first Lady didn't come into use really until Dolly Madison's time. The fourth First Lady, pioneered the practice of championing social causes. She helped orphan children and supported women's rights, and it said that at Mrs Madison's funeral, President Zachary Taylor, you eologized her as the country's first lady, the first time that title was never used. I was just thinking about what you were saying very earlier about if Corey Booker had been elected, and I think his mother or his sister or niece or someone would have stepped in to take over the role, because there's just no way that they would let that go, like somebody needs to fill in, and we saw Thomas Jefferson, Yes you need a woman, And I still don't know why, but we feel the need to have this position, and like James Buchanan was was a bachelor and his niece, Harriet Lane, you know, took over um this going back in the nineteenth century. But like the idea that we would elect an unmarried person as president, I think it is such an interesting question because we attached so much, like you know, meaning to being married and having a family and like how that would make you responsible. And I just I feel like we haven't moved far enough away from those really old fashioned ideas, you know, the First Lady is arguably one of the most important advisers to the president. I don't believe that it was a coincidence that, you know, you know, Reagan ran a big deal on having a war on drugs and then Nancy had just say, no, how much of a role or how much influence does the first Lady have, Like in what ways her first ladies impacted policy in this country. I mean, a very recent example is Michelle Obama with her Let's Move campaign that you mentioned earlier about you know, having healthy lunches and catch up doesn't count as a vegetable in school lunches and all of that, and she was really trying to continue make it like a very healthy, um, you know, environment for kids who sometimes you know, hot lunch is like their only meal of the day for some kids in this country, which is just like terrible. And so she really wanted to make sure they had nutritious food. And that dovetailed with the Let's Move campaign, which was about exercise I am with her husband's childcare nutrition bill that they were trying to get through Congress, and so she would make calls to senators and members of Congress trying to push that bill through and that's a real example of a first lady getting involved in policy. Hillary Clinton wanted Ruth Bader Ginsburg on the Supreme Court and let her husband know that she was the right pick. So there are actual, real ways that they're getting involved. And they call it pillow talk, which I still think is kind of silly, but the idea that at night, this is the last person there the president's presumably in a be seeing so they can influence policy. But like you mentioned Betty Ford, and I think a lot of people know about what she did um to talk about drug and alcohol addiction, but that happened after she was in office, Like that app the Betty Ford Center was years later, and so I think they have this tremendous power for the rest of their lives if they choose to use it. So we all know that Nancy Reagan was one of the people that got you know, her husband to fire Donald Reagan, who was then his chief of staff. And then this one doesn't necessarily compare the same because it was a hundred years ago, but we also know that, you know, I think it was it Um was it Woodrow Wilson that I had the stroke and Edith and Edith was running the country after her husband, like, not in an official capacity, but unofficially she you know, would robber Whisperner, it is what you need to tell him to do, and then she would go password to the vice president. Does that support system make the president stronger or is it like like where's the line of here's what you should do versus let me do my job. I mean, that's such a good question when you bring up Edith and Nancy. Those are two first ladies. The reasons why they were so powerful as they decided who could see their husband's right, Like Nancy Reagan decided who would be chief of staff. She decided even when they were putting the cabinet together, who should be in the cabinet. And then Edith Wilson was keeping people from her husband when he was sick. So it's the idea of who's controlling the people who can get into the oval office or have the president's here. So I think that, um, that's where the power lies in the position of first lady is being that person who can control people who have access to their husband. And I think a lot of people would say first ladies shouldn't have any control, right because they're not elected. I would argue that most first ladies that have kind of been doing the pillow talk has been for the better of the country, not necessarily for the detriment. We don't know if Milania ever slept in saying that, but Trump after maybe the first year. But in terms of understanding just how influential this role is. Why do women have to live in the shadows and be unpaid in that regard? If if you have a stroke and I'm the middleman between you and the chief of staff when the bombs Again, this is back in the nineteen hundreds, Prohibition, World War One was around the corner. Should I get a little bit of money for the universe light? It is ridiculous, And that's what Dr Biden is trying to do. I think by having a job, by being paid for that job. She's teaching, of course, and she had taught her entire life. The only time she took a break was during the campaign. And I think that it's important that women be able to continue their jobs. And Laura Bush, it's it's not a partisan thing either. Laura Bush said the same thing. She said, first ladies should be, you know, given the opportunity to pursue whatever career they had. I mean, you cannot expect Hillary Clinton to just sit idly by. And I think I think that being paid for being First Lady is different than being paid for continuing your job as a teacher, which is outside you know, the role. I think that's easier to convince people it's it's okay, especially like as much work, Like you know, they're still expectations of like stuff doing at the White House, but like you know, Joe Biden has been traveling all over know, visiting you know, tornado victims and things like that. So like there's still just a lot of work as well that they are doing and still expected to do as well, and like to not get paid for that, but also have an office that like with the staff that reports to them. Like why is the boss not paid? That's a good point. Well, you're paid the prestige and the book deal after you leave off is this day you get? Jeff, what what didn't make it into the piece? Because that's the thing I'm always curious about. You what what argument did y'all have when this piece was thirteen minutes and you knew you had to chop it down to ten. Yeah, I mean, you know, every woman that's been a first lady has like you know, there's documentaries about them, there's books about them, Like there's hundreds of sources on them and stories to tell, and like it's very difficult to like narrow it down. And like right off the top, Dolly Madison was where we sort of started this piece, and like, you know, one of the stories that was interesting but we just didn't have time for it was like her saving like all these you know, government documents in the Washington portrait when the British were storming of the White House, and it was just like a fascinating story, but like we just didn't have the time to like explain that story. Eleanor Roosevelt, we we spent one entire role on And there was like two stories that like I thought were really interesting but we just didn't have room for. One was that, like you know, she was very a big advocate for the anti lynching legislation UM and the KKK put like a bounty on her. And then she also would hold women only press conferences. A lot of newspapers that only had been reporters would have to either hire women reporters or you know, get women to report on these stories and to like it saved jobs and like was a real force for like having women enter into journalism. And so you know, you're condensing all this history into like you know, it's a thirteen minute piece, and like the sound bites that we use are like a minute each roughly, so you know, trying to tell eleanor Roosevelt's entire story and a minute is impossible. After the break, I want to get into now that we know the role in the expectations of the First Lady, the criticism and that eaters who love to talk that ship. Kate, I want you to break down all the ship talking and hating and unrealistic expectations that first ladies go through. It's Women's History Month. We are going beyond the scenes on the history of the First Lady and also First Dude. We'll talk about him a little later, the first Gentleman. I think you should be due First Dude. No y'all disagree, Okay, that's fine. Back, Kate, we were talking in the previous break about the expectations and whether or not some women want to deal with the stress of that, and Milania being you know, caught off the what she thought was off the record complaining about some of the stuff, which also I didn't Jeff, did you all come across this in your research that if Milannia didn't want to be first Lady, Ivanka was gonna step in like a first daughter lady. Do you remember that, Like Milanni was going to stay in New York if I remember correctly, Yeah, she wasn't going to go to the White House And that lasted for a few months before they decided to move down there because like security was an issue and like they just decided to to make it easier. Maybe I'm just remember that. I think that was, but yeah, it was. Yeah, that is true. And Michelle Obama and some of the other first ladies were like jealous of Milannia for doing that, because Milannia, like the expectation was you moved to the White House when your husband moves into the residence, and she just flipped the script and didn't do it. And I think that that these other women were like, what I could have done the same thing, Like none of them really wanted to move in right away. So in a way, that was one of the more interesting things. And I think kind of great thing. Well, you know, she did a lot of terrible things, I think his first lady, but one of the good things was not doing what we all expected her to do all the time. And that brings me to the scrutiny, because let's let's be real, none of these women asked for this role. They just married a dude and then one day the dude was like, Hey, I want to be in charge of everything. I'm gonna need you to bake cookies and pet the dog and take nice photos. And if you don't move a certain way within that, within that construct, you get scrutiny from the press, social media. Now twenty four hour news cycle hasn't helped at all. How did the first ladies, like, how do they how do they handle that constant scrutiny? And number one, how do you keep from going crazy? Kate? How do you keep from going crazy? Especially if you Melanny, you know, Melannia didn't think he was gonna in I'm going to be president? That this nice don't know where's money? Give me? How do how do how did the first ladies how do they deal with that scrutiny? You know, and try and keep their head on straight. You look at what happened to Betty Ford in the White House, she got addicted to painkillers and alcohol. I mean, I think a lot of them dealt with it in a really unhealthy ways. I think it's really hard for them to um to manage it. Some of them reach out to each other, like UM Michelle Obama and Laura Bush talked occasionally. One of the coolest parts of this First Lady's documentary on CNN is when they show UM David Axelrod Obama's advisor with UM Michelle Obama and it's during the campaign, and she's like, I don't understand in two thousand and eight why people think that I'm you know, angry and not like approachable. And he just played this video of her speech with the sound off, and he's like, look at your facial expressions, Look how you come across. And she was like, she was just stunned because that's not how she saw herself. That's not how people who knew her saw her. I called her in to show her what people were seeing, and I turned the sound down and just let her see herself in a country, in a world face may She got it immediately. She was getting all of this. You know, remember when she said the phrase, and I'm going to butcher it, but it's about you know, I'm proud of my country for the first time. And it wasn't quite that harshly said, but that was seized upon by the right and made into this huge, huge issue. Hope is making a comeback. It is making a comeback. And let me tell you something, for the first time in my adult lifetime, I'm really proud of my country, and not just because Barack is done well, but because I think people are hungry for change. As the first black first lady, she just had tremendous pressure and I think she leans on her good friends like Valerie Jarrett in the way House. She you know, kept a really tight group of women around her, people she had known forever from Chicago. Her mom lived with them, which helped them. That helped him mentally. Yeah, for the Michelle Obama criticism, uh, you know, one of the pieces of the discovery was like we remember that, like she was criticized for wearing shorts, you know, just like regular shorts. There's photos that were getting off a plan. I think they were going to Hawaii maybe for like one of the winter vacations, and like there was like just outrage on conservative media about like is it acceptable for Michelle Obama to be wearing shorts? And so then to that point, Jeff, in your research, and I'm sure this is probably a lot more recent, let's just say from Clinton onward, did you see a double standard? Like just in watching the footage as you're just going through hours and hours of footage, is there double standard? And how liberal versus conservative media, Like, let's just go with Fox News. If Michelle Obama can't wear shorts, Barack can't wear a tan suit, Balania hat on a jacket that on the back it said fuck all of y'all. It's something Let me ask Kate, is that what what did I say? Did exactly say that? I really I don't I really don't care, do you? Yeah? It was like a thousand dollar jacket to right, Like it was like a like a really expensive jacket. It was a really No, it was like a forty dollar jacket, which made it even weirder because she normally wore fifty dollar jackets. So it made no sense. Is there is there a double standard, Jeff? And how the media chooses to scrutinize or uplift first ladies. Now, Yeah, I mean, I think everyone goes to their homeside and starts advocating and tearing down the other side because that's what's expected. You know, we were talking earlier about the Michelle Obama like let's move campaign and like you know, growing a garden in the White House, and like conservative media didn't like that, like they attacked her for encouraging kids eat vegetables. Um so it's you know, like carrots are a cultural warn thing. Now, there was a whole thing of like mockery of like calling Dr Jill Biden doctor Jill Biden like a degree she had earned. And it was like a cycle of news of we're not going to call her doctor. She's not an actual doctor. If you're dying in the street, she's not going to operate on you right there, So therefore she's not a doctor. And you know the same thing like anything Melanie did would be defended. Wearing the jacket was fine, you know, no criticism. Kay, why is there such scrutiny around what a first lady like? Historically it's always been in things like I remember my mother and to this day, my mom talks about I want elbow length gloves like Jackie on Nassus. That's all. Like, I don't know what it is, but for her, there is a regalness, there's an elegance that she associates with the first lay and I too can be as elegant and grand as Jackie on NICs all the way down to Oh my god, Michelle Obama showed her arms. Could you believe she out there showing all? She looked like the baby mama. What is with the fascination and the scrutiny of what first ladies choose to wear? You know? I think that, Um, And it's interesting because the Jackie Kennedy, it's like the famous Chanelle suits that she would wear, the pill box hat that was all made in America because she got criticized for wearing foreign designers, so she had knockoffs made in the US of these fancy gowns. And then she was the first first lady to bring in her you know, own basically in house stylist. Um. I think that the thing with Michelle Obama's arms was really strange to me because there was such a fascination with them also and just how like you know, I think she started a whole craze of women wanting to look like her too, because she is so in shape, right, and we don't see first ladies normally. They're a bit dowdier like Barbara Bush, right, and they look more like your grandma, And so I think that um in a way. You know. There was also a lot of positive about the arms, at least to me. I thought her arms were as I would argue. She did like the sleeveless sheaths that she wore. But to your question about why it matters, I think it's because they can't really say anything, Like they can't come out Laura Bush is pro choice, she can't come out and say that her husband's pro life. So they can't say anything substantive. So the only way they can be heard is through these choices of what they're wearing. Do you think Hilary's pants suit plays into that same thing, because I mean, she ran for office while she was still First Lady, so it was almost like a statement in saying like, no, I'm here to have it, y'all. Respect suits. Is that's what people wear when you think they here to handle business. So I'm gonna wear a pant suit? Yeah, I think so, I think absolutely, But I think there's a risk of waging in like reading into it too much. Like Milannia wore white at the State of the Union one year and we were all thinking, oh, is she is suffragists? Now? Is this you know, white is the color of the suffrage movement, and you know, is she is this a hidden message to her husband when really we see that it was just what democrats. I think we're secretly hoping for with Milannia. I think there was a lot of hope that she was this prisoner in the White House, and in reality she was really behind him on every issue. It's tough as nails. I mean, she's not some victim. And I think we see that now that she's doing all this stuff with selling n f T s and you know, kind of making money off of the position in a way we have never seen before, because you know, usually you donate your gowns to the Smithsonian so the Americans can see it and you know it's part of American history, and not selling it to the highest bidder. You said it at an option for a quarter of a million dollars and then no one bids on it and you can take it off the market. Well, depressing, Jeff, what does this scrutiny, say though about gender expectations, you know, like you cannot show your arms, you cannot show too much leg even though we're going to Hawaii where you were weare a bikini, Wait until you are alone in private to put onto bikini? And what happens you know when a first lady strays away from that ideal? It'll be interesting to see, like we're talking earlier about like you know, what happens when it's the first gentleman, Like are those like are those same criticisms like if there's you know, can a first gentleman show too much skin? Can you know? Or are they going to be criticized for what clothes they wear? Uh? You know, like you just put it in that context, like I don't think that now it's not gonna happen exactly, It's not gonna happen. So it's it's it you know that right there shows like the delicate like you know, you know, high wire, you know, walk that these these women have to do to like not offend on every little thing that like someone will take offense to, and like one person taking offense to you know, showing arms or legs or wearing the wrong hat it turns into a new cycle for days and weeks, and then it becomes a thing that people are questioning and get asked about. Okay, how much does feminism play into what's happened in the last twenty years as well? And some of the choices that first ladies make that push against the society, I don't expect the traditional societal expectations of the first lady. I mean, the point that Jeff was making is that a man in this position wouldn't be scrutinized because he wore at all. And the fact that a woman would shows that we haven't really made very much headway, you know. Um. And the fact that you know, I don't I mean, Michelle Obama probably I don't think she could have continued her career as a lawyer, just because there probably are conflicts of interest and all of that. But you know the fact that Dr Biden is getting criticized for using the doctor title, it is just such a sign that, you know, we haven't made the strides in the White House that we have Outside of the White House. I think there's been more progress, um. I mean, listen, women still don't get paid the same as men for the same work. So I don't think we've made enough strides. But I think for some reason, this role is just it's ingrained in our conscience because it's the closest thing we have to the royal family, and so I feel like we treat them kind of like queens, you know, instead of professional women. And I don't know how we get out of that. Yeah, because that's that those are two royal families, the White House and the Kardashians. Yeah, that's the sad statement. Won't they both influence fashion? Before we go to the break, Jeff, how do you unpack all of this stuff and figure out, like, how do your zero in on what's funny? Because the balance at the show is always what do you need to know? Versus what would be entertaining? So how did you all navigate trying to put jokes in the middle of Oh yeah, she's criticized, probably racially motivent, Oh yeah, Milania might not move to Washington, d C. How do y'all navigate infusing humor into a historical segment? You know? Nice, We'll just give a bucket to some of the writers and be like, well, we could end on this story, we could end on that story. We'll give them three different stories and let them choose which one they think they have the best opportunity to make a joke off of. You know, it's not always necessarily finding the funniest footage, although that's always you know, it's always a goal. And so like, you know, we came across the footage of like Best Truman, you know, and she was you know, she's christening these planes. Um, we use this you know story in the piece. She's christnys these planes and she's given a champagne bottle that's not scarred, like it's not like cracked, so like you know, it doesn't break. The footage is like this nineteen forties news reel, So it's like the you know at the new at the airfield, there's you know drama, yeah exactly, and you see the footage and they just you know, she's whacking it and whacking and over and over and over again, and like you just hear these studs and you feel so bad for this woman because it's just like that you hear the audience laughter and like the narrators telling everything that's going on, and like it has to happen like half a dozen dozen times. I wish we had been able to like just play the entire thing and it's entirety because like it just olds and the drama builds and like you just hear it and you just feel so bad at a certain point. But you know, I had never seen that before. Actually I thought that was really fun. And you feel so bad for her, you really do, and you're like, oh bad, Like I can't imagine like what that if that had happened today, how like crazy the news would have been of like, you know, Jill Biden not able to break a champagne bottle? What does that say about Democrats? It's like kind of feinted walking out of that sprinter during the election, Oh she got to pass it out? Is that the president look at Jill Biden going up on the stage. I loved that when she went up on the stage during the campaign and like went and like defended her husband against some protesters, and like you see stuff like that and you see who they are. You just see them as human beings, and we don't get to see that enough. I think for first ladies, Yeah, they definitely have to mask who they really are to like be this persona that America will accept Okay, So the right there, Yeah, that's a great place to go to break because I want on the other side of the break as we wrap up here, I want to find out from both of you what you think deems a first lady successful. Just just just just marinate on that, and we got to talk about first dude and what's the role of first dude because we have a chance now, Jeff, you and I to establish what the baseline rules will be first dude outfits and his his role in the White House. This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Kate. I'll start with you because you have a New York Times bestseller about a lot of the first lady said I occupied this space, Jeff, I don't think you have the best do you? I do not. Okay, So then Kate, I will start with you. What makes a first lady successful? Because like I feel like with the role of president, it's not really like there's the presidency and then there's the twenty twenty year after glow when we look at the policies and how they actually matriculated or not. And I feel like a president is judged twice in a way, or you can, you know, pull a Bush and do a revisionist history and sitting next to Michelle Obama and give a little pieces of candy and everybody forgets about yeah that stuff. But for the role of first lady, you know what deems the first lady successful? And what do you think of our current first lady, doctor Jill Biden. Well, we've been talking about how the role has changed or not, and how old fashioned it is and how inherently gendered it is. I think that each first lady who moves it forward just moves the ball forward. It's gonna be. It takes a long time to get there, but I think, um, you know, Michelle Obama, first Black first lady, just simply by being there, she did so much and and then by doing so much good Michelle Obama had a lot of assets that other first ladies don't have. She's able to, like, be very relatable and warm and I think some people like um Milannia are just not able to do that. Um, but I think that moves the ball for it. I think Hillary Clinton did by having that West Wing office that she regretted by becoming a senator and you know, a candidate for president and the first woman to win a nomination was huge. Um, but it's just moving the ball, you know, down the field. I don't know my sports analogies that well, but like we're you know, each each one is doing little like you know, inch by inch, And I think Dr Biden is the best recent example of that, because just by having a job is so like crazy that we think that's amazing, but it is because no one's done it. Before she gets paid, she leaves the White House, she goes to her job. That's amazing that she's done that, and a lot of people don't like it. But um, people were worried that she wouldn't be able to balance everything. And I think that the main problem she has is you know, during the pandemic, is just having the ability to do the traditional things that we expect, like you know, she doesn't really have like one um set platform. You know that neither did Melannia because the best just didn't really count to me because it just was way too broad and we don't know what it meant. And like Dr Biden, I don't think I don't think she has one thing that she's latched onto yet. And uh and I know from you know, having talked to her and people around her because it's because of the pandemic. Jeff, we have a second gentleman in the White House right now, and you know, number one, what do we think the role because I think it's an interesting opportunity if we're talking about gender dynamics and the role of a man within the house as it relates to supporting his woman. Because I mean that what's going on between Kamala Harris and her husband. There are a lot of households like that in America where the woman is the mover and the shaker and she's the one kind of more in the forefront. What do you think the role of first gentlemen will look like? You know, as we go for because we are having more women in politics, this is not uncommon, So Kamala is not going to be the last of this iteration of the working the working woman politician being at the forefront and the man being there and being supportive. What do you think the first gentleman should do? Like? What? What? What are the expectations? I think it'll be really interesting to watch because it's like, you know, with the with the responsibilities that are you know, handed off to two first ladies right now, Like will they end up having to decorate the Christmas trees, Like is that a responsibility? And if they are there, is it going to be like traditional? We're like they're on the ladder, you know, not you know, hammering at the Christmas lights? Like is that is it gonna be like that traditional? Like the guy is gonna be you know, hanging out the you know, mowing the lawn, you know, the front had Like it'll be interesting to see like how God the first gentleman, the first gentleman dug him holf is now going to start up the official congressional or you know, they'll be doing the engine work on the on the beast right, you know, the limos like let's be in the garage, like you know, if if they're if their expectations to do, like what the gender defined roles are, then like you know, those are the things that you know, we you know, seeing that role. So I hope that like if when that happens, that like you know, when it starts going back and forth between having a first gentleman and the first lady, when it goes back to being a first lady, that like a lot of those roles, those expectations are gone and like first, ladies and women can do whatever they want, and like there isn't that gender you know, to find roles anymore. Yeah. I think another part of it as well, Kate, is you know, when once we see a woman in office who has children and the role at the gentleman plays in the expectations of parenting and fatherhood. I think that's probably something that will probably be a bigger part of the conversation as we see more and more women elected into higher and higher positions in this country. I think so. And I think you know, to just point about them. About Doug m Hoff, like the idea that you know, we're actually not seeing him expected to play those male like that. You know, we're not expecting him to be this tough, macho guy Like he's out there. He's very warm and fuzzy and kind of he's the consoler in the dynamic, right Kamala Harris is getting business done and she's the powerful person and right now in their relationship, and he seems okay with that. You know, he's teaching law at Georgetown. He was a corporate lawyer right in in California, and he's put that you know, has taken the backseat and now he's out there, you know, visiting people getting COVID shots and consoling. Recently, he console the kid who was crying because they were afraid about the COVID shot. Like he's doing the stuff that we expect women to do. And I think that that's what is so great about him, is that he's just secure enough whatever in his manhood or whatever that you know, let's move forward where they don't have to be diff tough. He can he can be you know, himself. And I think, um, I think that's a great thing about that dynamic. And I don't know why we're not talking more about it, Like, to me, that's amazing that we have a second gentleman and it doesn't get that much press attention. And I'm not sure why. What is the relationship between the first ladies, you know, because it's a very unique shared experience that like literally less than fifty people can honestly say that they've done. Like, is there is there a first lady's group chat? I know you said Laura and Michelle, Laura Bush, Michelle Obama. You know, they talked a little bit while Michelle was an office, But I look at that as more of a transition here's what to expect. Girl. You need to make sure that dinner's own the table. At five thirty oils Donald Rumsfield, I'm coming in and cut you. But after the fact, are they still chill? Are they still friends? What's that life like now for them? I don't. I wish it's It's funny, I kind of. Um. I talked to somebody who worked for the Obama's about this, um, this book I did about the First Ladies, and I was like, today, do they email each other? Do they go out to lunch? And He's like, this would be a great novel. It is not reality. Like the reality is Michelle Obama and Laura Bush see each other at events. They're friendly, but they're not like they're not hanging out, you know, spirit fingers. It's too bad. I mean, I think Joe Biden and Michelle Obama developed like a real friendship, you know, especially after Boe Biden passed away. That was real. The Obama's and the Biden's you know, Biden's grandkids or friends with the Obama's daughters. You've got that connection. Um. And so they still are friendly, but um, and I think they do lean on each other. And to me, That's what was really sad about the transition between the Trump's and the Biden's was there wasn't like I know, you said, it's here's what to expect, and it does seem very ProForma kind of like humdrum. But that's really important when the first Lady gives a tour of the White House to the incoming first lady, um, because it's it's you know, part of the peaceful transfer of power, it's part of tradition. It's happened since the Truman's and the fact that that just didn't happen, it's terrible and um, there were so many awful things going on that I think that that kind of like fell under the radar. But Milannia didn't invite Joe Biden to the White House. Milannia had no relationship with any other First Ladies, and I think that made it even harder for her. It's stuff like that that I think does matter, even though it's the softer side of politics and the White House. You should be able to reach back to the people who came before you and not have this awful, poisonous relationship with them, which I think was what happened with Trump and Obama sounds a lot like high school? Have you read this song on? So we don't talk anymore. We just had calculus together that one. But you start them on Facebook? Yeah yeah, and also copy a lot of Michelle Obama's speeches and stuff. But oh that that's a conversation for another another episode. So before we go, I want to test both of you all. I wanna give you a little quiz. I want to test your knowledge on the first Ladies. This is a segment I'm calling First Ladies First. We're gonna put some music right there and make it feel dramatic. Now here's what we're gonna do. I'm gonna read a fact about a first lady, and you all are going to tell me who was the first first lady to accomplish that task? Are you ready? I don't know that my research went that deep, and I guess we're gonna find out. Listen. Only one of you is the New York Times bestseller with a book that is swimming in these waters. And one of you is a daily show producer who did some thorough research, but for about a week, like a long type of to a year ago. So alright, first question, who was the first first lady to win a Grammy, just holler it out if you know it. Either. We don't have buzzers, so we don't have a budget for that. I would go with ellinor Rose it alt Hillary Clinton, Okay, okay, I was gonna go with Michelle Obama. Make it recently, Michelle Obama is a solid guest Hillary Clint Best Spoken Word Album. It was for the audio book of best seller It Takes a Village. Michelle Obama won one I think about two years ago, and that was for her memoir Becoming. Next question, who was the first first lady to seek advice from an astrologer during the presidency? Nancy Reagan. She went to this woman, Joeanne Quiggly, and she actually had a board where she had days that her husband should travel and should not travel, and she would label them green was a good day, yellow was if he read was bad. Because after the assassination attempts, she was so terrified that something would happen to him. She reached out to this astrologer and then she would pillow talk him like don't you lead town next Thursday run. She just wouldn't let him go. It was like not going to happen. It was not on his schedule. If it was a red day, she controlled the callender. But Nancy, nuclear weapons are in there? Why did all became? Why did I sound like Chris Farley everything? What a terrible Ronald Reagan. I think that's as good a place as any to end. That's all the time we have. Thank you so much today for going beyond the scenes, I guess Jeff and Kate, thank you so much for going beyond the scenes with us. Thank you. Listen to the Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple podcast, the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts.