The World Cup is underway in Qatar, and it’s already contentious. Host Roy Wood Jr. sits down with Daily Show writer Joe Opio and sports journalist Grant Wahl to discuss how Qatar was awarded hosting privileges, the thousands of migrant workers who died while building whole cities and stadiums, accusations of bribery and corruption of FIFA officials throughout history, and the need for independent sports journalism on soccer’s biggest stage.
More from Grant Wahl: GrantWahl.com
Hey everyone, it's Roy Wood Jr. You're about to listen to a special episode of Beyond the Scenes featuring sports journalists and CBS soccer analysts Grant Wall, which was recorded before his tragic and untimely passing at the World Clup and Content. Grant was an amazing person and passionate advocate for l g B t Q plus rights. We were so grateful to have known and interviewed him for this episode. We offer our most sincere and deepest condolences to Grant's wife, Selene, and his entire family at this very difficult time. Welcome to Beyond the Scenes, the podcast that goes deeper into segments and topics that aired originally on the daily show This This This Podcast. Let me explain this podcast to you. You ever go to a sporting event and you go to watch a game and roof of your favorite team. But while you're at the game, there's also camaraderie. Everybody in the stadium doing the wave, the kids, cam t shirt guns, over priced hot dogs, the just something about a stadium hot dog that tastes better than any other hot dog. That's what this podcast is. I'm Roy Wood Jr. And Today We're talking about FIFA and the World Cup and all of the controversies surrounding the decision to host the two Men's World Cup in contact. Today, I'm joined by Daily Show writer and super soccer fan Joe Opio or should I say football? Which one you're gonna make me say? Today? Joe, I think I've been um, I think I've been coordonized by America. I think is fine, you know, and most of my friends back home will be horrified by that. But yes, yes, okay's fine. I'm finding I think I'merica has broken me. Yes, your Ugandan passport has just been revoked. Anyway. Always good to have you on. Joe. Our next guest also joining us. It's coming to us from Concer. He is a sports journalist and soccer analysts for CBS Sports and The New York Times bestselling Arthur Grant Wall Grant, Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Now let's die. I've right in and just have you set the stage for our listeners for what the controversies are surrounding contra hosting the fief of Men's World Cup and also what is your experience has been like so far over there? Yeah, I've been here for about five days, um and it's my third trip to Qatar. I came in to do a magazine story. I came back to Qatar and early two to do another story and talk to migrant workers here about their experiences, and and just got back this week. And you know, compared to so much has been built, like literal cities have been built out of the desert and sand since I first came. And so it's incredible to see how much money has been spent here. It's the richest country in the world GDP wise, and two hundred billion dollars have been spent on this World Cup when you add up all the infrastructure costs, so it's by far the most spent on any sporting event in history. We know that there were a lot of injustices that happened, because, like you said, they've built up entire cities almost in the course of ten years. They announced that you get into World Cup, and then they hurry up and build a bunch of stadiums because we got a plaice soccer at the same time, and we need all these stadiums all at once, which means you have to bring in workers. And I would imagine, this is not like when we had the Olympics in Atlanta and most everything was above board in terms of construction and how the workers were treated. Uh, talk talk to us a little bit more specifically about some of the atrocities that were happening during just the construction of the infrastructure. For this to happen, well, more than of the workforce in Qatar is migrant workers, so non Qataris who come here from the Indian subcontinent, from East and West Africa, from Southeast Asia and take jobs in construction, uh, domestic work, um, hotel work, all sorts of things. And they have this thing called the Catholic system, not just in Are but in other Gulf states for decades and decades it still exists in a lot of places that essentially has been compared to modern day slavery because you had employers literally taking the passports of their workers, which prevented their freedom and movement, and a lot of them were not paid or not paid enough. They were dying, but in great numbers working in the heat here, which is oppressive summer. I mean, that's why you're talking about at least migrant worker deaths in Qatar, since they got the World Cup in and obviously that's not just connected to stadium building, that's the infrastructure of the entire country. But you're talking about a lot of dead migrant workers, very little investigation into cause of death. You're talking about um treatment of women that is concerning um in terms of needing per mission from fathers and husbands to do things that women don't need permission to do. Uh in other parts of the world. You're talking about a country that outlaws being gay and so a lot of those all those things have been coming up in discussion around this tournament. So we have this this nation who also is like never like fielded a World Cup team in the last twenty or so World Cups, with all of these indignant oppressive rights, then bringing in people who are dying to build all while building all of this stuff, How the hell does guitar get the World Cup in the first place? What the hell happened? How did this even get approved? So the vote was taken by twenty four men, all men at FIFA, and according to the US Department of Justice, there were bribes paid lots of money into the pockets of the voters. Now, to be clear, this wasn't the only time that's happened for the World Cup or for the Olympics. So Russia paid bribes for Salt Lake City paid bribes to host the two thousand two Winter Olympics. The Mormon bribes, they don't hit the same. That's a different type of bribe. And so FIFA and the International Olympic Committee are corrupt organizations. Let's be very clear here, and that's how Katara got the World Cup. Okay, you're there, You're on the ground. What is the mood like? Is it festive? Is it chill? How are the locals treating you? Does it feel like you're in a twilight zone or does it feel like like like For an example, most cities that host Super Bowls ship their homeless people out to the suburbs. Two shelters out in the suburbs to clean up downtown. And I was in Atlanta, and I've played Atlanta for twenty years for stand up, so I know what downtown Atlanta is supposed to feel like. And I've also been downtown Atlanta during the Super Bowl and it wasn't the same vibe. So over there, what is it like? What has your experience has been like on the ground, you know, wherever the World Cup takes place, I call it World cups Ville. It's not a natural reflection of what that place is like when the World Cup is not happening. You know, they want to put their best foot forward, the hosts. They want to feel like they're welcoming the world. They want people to have a good time and think positive things about Qatar. People are pretty conflicted though. Journalists are conflicted about being here. I'm conflicted about being here. Fans are conflicted about being here. I love the World Cup. I think it's the best sporting event in the world right and and yet all of the reasons that we're talking about earlier have me conflicted about this World Cup. And that's natural. And so you do have some people I know boycotting the World Cup, saying they're not going to watch the World Cup because of all this, and I respect that if that's your choice. I realized a while back, probably around the Russia World Cup, that as a journalist I should be here and doing independent journalism because if all the journalists who are conflicted don't come, then the journalism that does get done isn't going to be an accurate representation of everything. Okay, so World Cups veal World Cup? How do you say it? Joe, I aint never been to you want been to the World Cup? How much of that what Grant is talking about? Have you seen yourself when you're there on the ground and visiting these countries, do you, because Joe, you strike me as one of the people. Also, you don't just go to the World Cup and stay around the World Cup. You seem like one of the people that just be off on another side of town where they ain't even stud and soccer. Now, yeah, you know, part of the World Cup, out of the experience of the World Cup is getting to imass yourself in the culture over the country. Because remember this goes on for a whole month, and so you tend to want to feel there's there's a vibe around. If you go to a friend's house and they're hosting a party, that party is going to two representation of how your friend lives your life. First of all, there's not as much alcohol, there's not as many maybe pretty women, there's not as much a rapport between people. And so World Cup is the World Cup is the same. When I went to Russia, frankly because of the obsessive Western coverage of the coldness of Russian people. I didn't expect to get any kind of reception. But when you arrived in Russia, Russian people are not as fluent in English, but they had come across the hat and the heart words. You speaking to your phone, then Google translates what you've said into Russian, and then the Russian person would speak into your phone, and then Google translate back what they said into English. And that's how we're communicating with Russians. And they were very, very willing to help. It's almost like the same disconnect people have when they come to New York because you're told New Yorkers are cold and harsh and they will never help strangers and the square chief you stop suddenly on the pavement. But when you are asking New Yorker, hey, how can I find my way to the sport? Oh, hey, which train text me to? New Yorkers are very willing to step out to really help you find your way. So it's almost like the same thing. And I feel like the same thing happened in in a in a Brazil, same thing up in in South Africa. Um, the reality on the ground is different from what's portrayed. And that's partly because people are trying to put their best foot forward. People are trying to hold the most memorable world gap. No one ever onces told the World World Cup and get negative reviews on Europe. Everyone is trying to get that five star. People in the country are trying to be the best possible hosts they can be. And so when you go, when you when you go to Cata, they're going to be surprised. I'm sure the same old surprise when I went to Russia, the same ol surprise when I went to South Africa. Now, grant, what do you think that countries like Hountel or Russia paying bribe to have these tournaments here? Like, what is the value and being able to host something is coveted as the World Cup? What is the worth of that to them? It's unlimited the value to these countries. It's the word is sportswashing. That's why so many authoritarian countries have wanted to be associated with the World Cup and the Olympics, because they feel like it will burnish their image globally by hosting these events. Oh, Germany must not be a bad place. That Hitler guys, Okay, Jesse Owens was over there running right. Damn, you're right. This goes way back. It's not new, you know, we've seen this. Of the four World Cup took place in Mussolini's Italy. The nineteen seventy eight World Cup took place in Argentina under a military junta that killed thousands of their own citizens. So it's not a new phenomenon. But we're in a stretch when so many authoritarian countries have been hosting the big sporting events, you know, whether there's the Russia World Cup or Winter Olympics, the China Winter in Summer Olympics, Qatar, and for a while there even the only bidders for these events were authoritarian countries. It seemed like democracies were stopping, you know, they're bidding. That's changing a little bit starting in twenty four with Paris in the in those Olympics. World Cup is going to be in the US, Canada and Mexico, and the Olympics are going to be in Los Angeles. So this World Cup actually is sort of the end of a stretch of almost exclusively authoritarian countries hosting these events. Well for now to the get their money up and they can come back strong once Crypto bounces back. What is it exactly that you think that are specifically that nation. What is it they're wanting to show on this global stage to the world. What are their what are their motives? I think they want to differentiate themselves to the wider world from other Gulf states. They and of want to say we're better than Dubai or Abu Dhabi or Bahrain or Saudi Arabia or whomever in the region that hasn't gotten the hosting rights for a World Cup. And Qatar has really tried to do this through sports. This is like, the facilities on the ground for sports in this country are incredible. They have this place called the Aspire Academy that all these big European soccer clubs come and train at in the preseason. You know, they've hosted major sporting events like the World Track and Field Championships in Qatar. They've hosted the Asian Games, the Asian Cup soccer tournaments coming here. So they want to be associated with marquee sporting events and separate themselves from other countries in this region. Okay, so we've set the table on the history of the corruption. Let's dig a little bit deeper into this topic after the break. This is beyond the scenes. Joe as a fan of soccer, and this is a lot of favus corruption We've known about for some time. How Egregious says, it have to be before the average soccer fan goes, okay, now I care enough to not watch? Or is the sport of like once the whistle blows and the game is being played, it is beautiful. Will that always be enough to supersede this type of corruption in the eyes of the fans. I think the funds have already had their same Grant wordest fight to these funds know that FIFA is corrupt to the core, and you see this every time the FIFA president comes out to say present the trophy, or any time the fifth president is announced coming into the stadium. He's always roundly booed by everyone. And funds feel that the game has been captured by the mafia FIFA, as Grant said, FIFA as well as the International Olympic Committee, basically the mafia organizations, that's what they are. But then funds feel this about all the elites who have taken their loved games, the beloved games first that you see it in the NFL. Every time Roger go there is supposed to present the Super Bowl Trophy. You know, he is round really bold, and so funs have had their say. But the thing is there's only so much funds can do because they love the game, and their love for the game is being repognized by these elites to make deals and to make money. Now we need you to talk about FIFA and the World Cup and the corruption in the World Cup. FIFA is the corrupt organization and I feel like every time countries enter into the bidding rights for the World Cup, you're basically entering into a bidding process that's being organized by the mob. And if you're doing that, then it's almost native to go in expecting to play clean and fair and win. This is going to be a datty process because it's being organized by that organization, and manage going to exchange hands, and man has exchanged hands for I think as long as I think the World Cup has existed, at least since the seventies, you know, you've had can't trees bribing their way to win the World Cup. The first World Cup I attended it was in South Africa. There's been evidence of South Africa. I used bribes to get that World Cup South Africa, and the organizers well denied until the day they they died. Before that, the World Cup was in twenty two thousand six in Germany and there was talk of bribes allegedly exchanging hands because they leader of the Oceania Federation was supposed to be voting for South Africa, but then he pulled out and he abstained, and that's how the World Cup ended up going to German. If he had voted, I think the vote would have been twelve twelve, and then said Blatta would have used his vote to send the World Cups Ofuth Africa. And the guy just on the day changed his mind, abstained, broke the hearts of an entire continent Africa. But this has been happening Russia clearly happened as well. But the thing is almost feel like any time countries getting to the bidding process, this is expected. Otherwise you're not going to win if you go in expecting to play fair and square, but you know this is a process that's being um overseen by FIFA. Then you're being in the ev and you get exactly what you desolve. How does the media's coverage around these countries, like how does that also shape the public perception of what's happening? You know? And then on top of that, Grant, as somebody covering the World Cup, how do you approach your commentary on topics like this? Does the media have influence? And if so, how does that change how you approach all of that? Have you had me like, is the media even suppressed over there? Grant? Like people follow me around and going, what are you looking at? Who you're why you're asking all those extra questions? Motherfucker stop it. I mean, let's be honest here. I assume whenever I'm in Russia or China or Qatar, I'm being watched, and I don't think that's being paranoid. So if they're in on this conversation, hey guys, I won't have anything to hide. And you know, I also know right now, Hello, my name is Robot Dinging, my route numbers three of it at my head, and so I also know that I have a certain amount of power as a journalist carrying a US passport, and I can do journalism over here and do it independently. Just the other day, I wrote about what happened when I was in line to get my accreditation and the security guard comes over to me. I had just taken a picture while I was waiting of the tournament slogan on the wall, and he tells me, no pictures, sir. And then I'm like, I look at him and he's he says, kindly deleted, sir. And I've never had a security person tell me to delete something off my phone in my life. And it's not a huge thing, but it does give you a sense of how the culture works over here and how authorities exercise influence and power to try and prevent things from happening, even if it's a not he was photo of a slogan on the wall. So my question is what happens when it's somebody protesting here or caring or wearing a rainbow flag to support the l g B t Q community. Are you going to have security guards come up to them and detain them for wearing a rainbow flag? What about people who have a few beers at one of the fan events. It's really hard to get alcohol here. They're gonna do something with drunk fans. There's a miscommunication that happens in situations can escalate very quickly. Even his guitar supposedly is trying to welcome the world here. I'll say this ory about the media coverage as someone who has gone to a few World Cups, and they say this from past experience as uh, South Africa, Brazil and Russia. I feel like the Western media every time the World Cup is held in a country that's not sufficiently white, so to speak, or sufficiently Western. The Western media, I feel indulg is in an orgy of fear mongering, and some of the questions they ask a legitimate but they are relentless and they sometimes go over the top. So I'll go to the South Africana World Cup. Before that World Cup, the Western media went on and on about the high crime rating South Africa, which was legitimate. The crime rating South Africa was high, but then there were some media made it seem like if you attended that World Cup, basically you're putting your life at risk. I was in South Africa and nothing like that happened. We went to Brazil, same thing happened. They talked about the fulbilars because there was some media always focuses on the worst parts of the country, and again that's also legitimate, but they went on about you know, when they went on about how you know the street margins are the fabaila as a problem, and they told people essentially, you should go to Brazil or you're only going if you go to Brazil, you're going to risk your life. Went to Brazil. Nothing like that happened Russia. Same thing. Recent media were obsessive about the Russian people and that one were coming, they would be in the hole, they would be I going to Russia had the greatest time in my life because the people of Russia actually wanted to, if anything, counter the negative perceptions and stereotypes that have been paid out by the Western media. And some people would go like, oh, but those some media, you know, they have legitimate issues and concerns. And the problem here is and they can't blame the media because they're trying to see the thing or they're trying to process the culture through the Western lens, and that's how they're supposed to because they don't have the same information as the people on the ground. So let's say American, if there's a small shooting in America, the rest of the world doesn't believe that if you come to America you're going to get shot up just working on the street. The rest of the world has an understanding that America is a lot bigger than Virginia. Take America is a lot bigger than Column than Sandy America. Yeah, is a lot bigger than Columbine. But the Western media goes like, if there is a war happening in one part of the country, then that entire country is a work on country. Or if there's crime in certain parts of the country, then crime is happening all over the country. And so the same thing I feel with Kata, because you know, Kata has and it has to be said, it has a very very very horrible maybe human rights recordsision when it comes to LGBTQ people. But I don't think they're going to be rounding up gay people in Kata because the amount of scouting that brings. CATA doesn't want the kind of attention. So when if you're an ergbuty person, you're thinking, no, no. The thing is because this week, because the World Cup brings such global spotlight on the country. It's almost like if you have a friend and your friend doesn't have their life together, they don't shower, they stay in their mom's basement. Those are the friends who aren't hosting parties. You know why, because they will clean up. And for me, I believe because of all these are legitimates concerns that people are raising from a purely comme adic standpoint, all these problems with Kata, you know, they are humans rights record, the corruption um, the migrant work updates wh are very very tragic. I believe because of those concerns. Actually Kata is deserving of the World Cup. It's the most deserving country I think besides North Korea. I always believe that the one no no hear me out. Always believe because the World Cup brings such a glare of spotlight on the country, it almost forces the country to look at look at itself in the mirror and reflect. So if you are a migrant worker in cat because these things have been happening forever. You know, the care finer system that a grand talked about, it has been in existence forever. It's in existence in all the other Gap and Middle Eastern countries. But because Kata is hosting the World Cup, the world's media came and said, because what the media does is they come and they look under every rock and they force you to either question or deal with the problems in society. So countries like countries like North Korea. Remember they thrived by isolating themselves from the world. So before go to the World Cup, I think it was the least known of all the gas states. But now because of the attention that the World Cup has brought, Kata has been forced, like your friend who doesn't have their life together, to almost they're trying to make reforms. Whether those reforms would have been lasting impact or not is debatable, but they have been forced to really look themselves in their because the whole world is looking at them. Okay, but Joe, Joe, I understand what you're saying. Everybody's coming over. That friend's gonna take a bath. Whether or not that friend will continue to take the baths after the party ends is the question that remains to be seen. We'll be right back, Joe. I feel like the World Cup is a little different than the Olympics in the sense that the World Cup is a singular event, multiple facilities for a single events, so you're building the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again, all in the region, so that you can have all these games at the same time. Whereas the Olympics is a bunch of different events, a bunch of different stuff. So when the Olympics come and go from an area, those facilities tend to be outfitted a number of different ways. Like Montreal that ended up being the stadium where the Montreal Expos ended up playing for a while, Atlanta Braves. The Olympic Stadium in Atlanta ended up being Turner Field for a couple of years for you know, for a number of years for the Braids before they moved up north to the suburbs. So the difference, though, I think with the World Cup is that that's not always the case. These countries been billions of dollars building all this new infrastructure for the Games. But Joe just break down over the people. What happens to a city once the Games leave? Like, are these infrastructures really adding value? No, most of them become white elefunts. And I take your point. There's a huge critical difference between the World Cup and the Olympics. First of all, the Olympics are held in a single city. It's a resort of Lake City or Atlanta, it's not the whole USA. And the World Cup is here across the entire country. So that's the argument most people have when you send the World Cup countries in the Third World, because they believe that the countries have to use very precious resources to cater to the needs of the World Cup. So South Africa spent lots of money that could have spent maybe on social programs building the World Cup a rather building stadium for the World Cup, building the infrastraca for the World Cup. And when the World Cup left, you found that these couldn't be retrofitted, as you said, to serve other purposes besides the World Cup. Something happened in Brazil. And the argument always is maybe these countries are not ready. But then the counterargument is, then that means that only western countries will ever deserve to host the World Cup because American reader has enough Stadia, England red has enough Stadia. And the counter gument is if you keep the World Cup in on the countries that have the infrastructure towards the World Cup, then the World Cup becomes a very it stops being the World Cup. It becomes this like very elitist tournament. Yeah that sealed it. Only yeah this one only developed countries. And you have to remember football it's not a game for only developed countries. Football actually is a game played mostly in these water countries. And so people argue that despite the logistical problems, maybe these countries deserved the World Cup because of the contribution they give to the game. But from the other side of that, this country is not ultimately better by the World Cup being there, Then what have they truly gained other than a couple of weeks of TV exposure because most countries lose money the World Cup. So yes, you have to you have to. You have to remember that when FIFA comes, when if it gives you the World Cup, one of the first conditions they put in place is the money they make from the World Cup. As if I would not be taxed. So if if it comes South Africa and makes five billion dollars, all the five billion is living South Africa tax free, that's the power, that's the powerkeeper. So you say, with all that, how do these countries benefit? And you forget the one thing that every human has, and that's ego, is the bragging rights. South Africa is still the only country in Africa towards the World Cup CUTA is going to be the fast country and probably the only country in a long time towards the World Cup. In the Middle East, the bragging rights and the brand value from hosting the World Cup is almost incalculable. The visibility, the pr opportunities, they're incarculable. So the countries are willing to take the economic heat just for the intangible and tangible value of hosting this atronomy. But you look at a lot of like World Cup in Rio, that stadium is a ghost town. Like that stadium, vandals come in, they ripped out seats, they've taken the televisions. In Brazil, you've got a bunch of stadiums and just random mass parts of the country, state of the art stadiums that are just not being used at all. All these road and rail lines that were built to get people to all of those stadiums during the World Cup and now they're absolutely just just a big gas scab on a region that probably could have used something that would help the people on a more regular basis. So, you know, I understand the diplomacy of it and the pr the good pr that it brings to the country, but if the money is not going back to the people at some point, how much of it is a good thing does that make it good ish? And the thing is you have to remember that Brazil bold countries is the best placed country trafficking advantage of the infrastructure because it's a football in my country, they have a world developed soccer culture. So but they still didn't take advantage because as you said, you know they Stadia, most of them are white elephants. But the argument you're making about whether this is a good thing presupposes that governments always have their priorities right. They don't. Most governments, like don't see things the way you're seeing them. So some people would say the US, should it be hosting the World Cup in six or should they use the money that they're going to pump into the World Cup to maybe have a better social program. Yes, petty chairs ensure that their students are not locked in this like yeah the date track here. Maybe ensure that US citizens don't alwaystend to go fund Me as their primary health care system. All these are questions that could be asked. But the things governments don't always have their priorities right. And the World Cup is such a huge opportunity, especially for if I'm the ruling government and I host the World Cup I'm almost assured to win the next election because the World Cup is also a tool or almost like an appeal that helps people forget their daily problems, and so hosting it is a huge deal, not just to the people but to the government as well. Now grant soccer as a sport in the last ten years, I would argue, has become very political. That has become a place where people are gone to make statements hashtag stop racism on the term Uh. There are many soccer teams that to this day are still taking a knee in honor of George Floyd. And so it's hard to have a sport that is swims in a little bit of corruption and not have teams speak out on it. So, you know, we've we've had teams like like Denmark, they've already started to broach the human rights abuse issues through their jerseys. You know, they're having markets that speak out about what's been happening. Is that a meaningful way to protest? And if it's that deep to you, what's stopping a country like Denmark from just repeating altogether? Why still show up? You know, we haven't seen a boycott of an Olympics or World Cup since eighty four when the Eastern Bloc nations didn't come to Los Angeles. Four years after the Western nations, a lot of them boycotted the eight Olympics in Moscow. I do think since then there has been kind of conventional wisdom that that was overly harsh on the athletes that only have these events once every four years in their short careers, and it was punishing those athletes too much. So what we've seen more recently are diplomatic boycotts. So the US and some other Western nations had a diplomatic boycott of the Winter Olympics in China. That's what we've seen to an extent. But like, I never really expected any boycott movements for this Guitar World Cup to get off the ground. There was never any serious threat from a country about that, and we're not seeing it. But I do think we're gonna see some protests of some sort you mentioned the ones, Like I still think it's possible that certain players, certain teams may do it here and want to call attention to things. If a country try to boycott the Worldcome, the penalties from FIFA would be severe because fIF I would move like the mafiorganization. It is to knick up you. What they would do is they would burn you from the next like probably ten editions of the worldcome. It's used as an example and so, and that's before we even get into the push back and backlash from funds in the country. If the country try to boycott the World Cup, the funds would not have it. But more than even the funds, FIFA would not have it. They would burn that country. They would come down. FIFA is very good at coming down hard on any countries that try to. Let's say, if you have a federation that's corrupt and your government tries to replace that federation because of the federation is cleat a corrupt people will band the entire country toil that federation is put back in place. They had an instance where you know, athletes were trying to wear Human Rights for All on their warm up kits. Can I just say you people while I warm up and people like take that ship off immediately? Don't you put that on? So grant if the block is that hot for a country who's trying to have some level of protests while being a part of a tournament, what ripple effect does that have? On individual players because you know the players that it wants with the microphones in front of them, masking the comment on all of this stuff. Like when individual athletes talk about politics or about social justice, people are to say, just shut up and play the game and leave the politics out of it. How are the athletes carrying this? Are they going full lebron I can't breathe shirts? Are they going full w n b A blacked out T shirts during warmups? Like? How motivated or hesitant athletes to speak out on injustices. What we're seeing with the U S team is they're going to bring back there Be the Change campaign. I think you're going to see be the Change on their warm up gear because they started doing that after George Floyd's murder by police in They had to be the Change on the front of their warm ups and they had their own message that they individually chose on the back. I think that's what we're going to see here in Qatar because they can say then, well, we've used this in the United States. We're not just doing this for Qatar. We're talking about having encouraging people to be the change themselves in their community and what they do, and it communicates something. I don't know if it's the strongest message. It's not like they're going to get sanctioned by FIFA. I don't think the US team for for doing that. The US team theyvey have mayby struggling to qualify half the time. Anyway, they have a good respect. I fully support the team. Man, please give a good job. I love they have a great uncle. I love. I think the U. S team, I think that building up towards something special in six. They don't have yet the tournament experience I think to have the kind of impact they hoped to have in this World Cup. But this is a great launch part for six when they will be at least inching towards their prime. They have a good, strong cole I think regardless. I think, regardless of if the U. S team is competitive all the way into the round of four, whatever, the American team has always been one of the most politically influential presence is at any international sporting competition. I think a lot of people tend to follow the lead of the Americans, So that part of it, I think is really dope. Okay, so we have covered everything terrible about what his corruption within FIFA. We have talked about people dying. We have talked about my bribes. We have talked about getting getting, you know, stifled and smothered. If you dare to speak out about anything while you're there to play soccer, Grant, Joe, is there anything that makes you hopeful about the future of FIFA? Is there is there any structural changes? How do we fix this ship? Grant? How do we how do we make meaningful change within FIFA culture? I get this question. A lot has FIFA changed since all the arrests in after the US Department of Justice sting operation arrested a lot of these guys, And I can't tell you with certainty. What I can tell you is the current FIFA president is basically following the set Bladder playbook the previous president who got to power just by giving as much FIFA money as possible to the individual member soccer federations in exchange for getting their votes in the FIFA election. That hasn't changed, that's only grown. In fact, more money than every is going to the individual corrupt federations. And then the question is are we you know, is there so much corruption that we're gonna see another sting operation like we saw in. I don't know, we haven't seen that yet, but I don't think anyone thinks fifas some totally changed organization that suddenly is squeaky clean. And they also want to make a lot of money in the sports. So that's why the World Cup is coming to the US and Canada, Mexico, and it's gonna have forty eight teams, more than ever, and they're gonna it's gonna be the most lucrative World Cup ever for a really long time. Beyond that too. Okay, So then if we're talking money right there, angoe, If we're talking money, Grant just said, money is what makes this thing move. Fans bring the money, Sponsors bring the money. TV partners bring the money. What can the fans the athletes, but what can they do to help provoke FIFA kicking and screaming into some level of change. I'll say, first to address the sting operation by the U S d O game that only happened because America lost the building rights to Cutter. If America had one, there was no way, There's no way the Department of Justice would have come out. The Netflix documentary about FIFA and covered that only comes out because America lost the building rights. Listen, listen. The huge mistake Pefer made when it came to the Cutter bid is they messed with their own country because America went like, we're not going to take this bullshit lying down. If America was hosting the World Cup now, there's no one Netflix would have put out the documentary about FIFA corruption because that's not a great build up to the World Cup. But when FIFA messed with the bull, it's got the horns and so and what did the US getting returned the US after the USA you did the sting and arrested a bunch of officials and what did What did the US getting done? It got the World Cup. So for me, the there's almost no way because, as Grant says, there's a culture of corruption in Fiver and Fiver untouchable in that sense. And the fans can't boycord the game because the game is such a powerful and potent symbol that everyone loves. It's almost the same problem that fans of the NFL have with fans of American football. Rather, yes, and then the NFL does almost you know, domestic abuses rife in the NFL. Criminality is rife in the NFL and then NEFL just looks the other way and there's nothing almost of the fans can do. So it's it's that catch twenty two. Because your love for the game is being reopnized by the people in charge. The thing is, the game is so beloved around the world. You just have to hope that with time, because the thing is time always brings progress. You just have to hope that with time and with this maybe the spotlight becoming given tighter. The corruption will listen, but reforms can only come from within. Joe Opio, We've covered a lot today talking about the corruption and the wildness. We end with a single question to you, Joe, are you going to Carter for the World Cup? Most definitely, I've been too. I've been, I've been through. The thing is, I'll be and you still go and I love it. I'll be there. I'll be there because boycotting the World Cup would almost be like um again football fans boycotting the Super Bowl. In a way, you're almost giving in the game has already been captured by Fifan, and you're giving them the satisfaction of actually not separating the game itself from the people who have captured it, and that's why all partly why all the teams are going as well. And some people say, oh, you should boycott the World Cup, and I would say the same thing Grants said, Um, I believe maybe cutter won't change, but the flood of funds we are going to go into Kata, the number of foreigners are going to go into Cata. When a culture meets with another culture, there's no way that culture remains unchanged. True. So for that reason, I'm going to I'm going to the World Gap on a one man mission to change the culture in Kata. Because everybody talks about trying to change the government to change the culture, but if you change the people inherently, you will eventually change the government, which then will change the culture. So Joe Opio, I wish you happy trails over their overseas as you seek to change the country of Carter one bar at the time. I just hope I haven't said anything that would get me black listed at the border. I hope they don't put up the podcast like excuse me? Was this? You would like you to clarify kind of currently clarify these views before we stamp. We put an entry stamp in your Passport Wall. We look forward to all of your coverage with the World Cup. Please say safe and please kindly delete this podcast after you listen to it if you don't mind. I don't want to getting in any trouble. Grant Wall, Joe Opio, thank you both for going beyond the scenes with us. Thank you. Listen to The Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple podcast, the I Heart Radio, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.