Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes, the Daily Show podcast that goes a little deeper into segments and topics that have already aired on The Daily Show. That this is what you gotta think about this podcast. This is what this podcast here, all right, So you work out right, your exercise and you gotta all that intensity with the workout. After your workout, right, you know, you do a little like cardio, you do some stretches that that that milk shape, you know, whatever that muscle milk stuff is with the ice cream you have after you have that muscle milk protein shape. That's what this podcast is today. We're diving into a topic that corresponded Dulce Sloan discussed in a segment that we call dull saying. In that particular episode, Dulce Say talked about the history of the strong black woman. Roll the clip. Now, you may be wondering what is a strong black woman. It's the idea that black women are emotionally resilient, naturally selfless, too proud to ask for help, and can succeed with no resources. So basically, every character played by Viola Davis, the irony is the strong black woman's stereotype was started by black women to come back on the negative ones. See in the aftermath of slavery, there were really only two stereotypes of black women. You were either some sex tempertuous Jezebel or a mammy who was just there to smother people in her bous In response, Black suffragette Mary Church Terrell coined the strong black woman model, listing as we climb, and I get what she was going for, but left as we climb. Even bodybuilders don't do both at the same time. You can't expect a black woman to do more than Schwarzenegger in his prime. Today to talk about this topic, you cannot talk about the strong black woman without having strong black women on the program. One of those is a daily show Deep Dive producer. She is a many many guests on this show, many many many appearance. It's Chelsea Williams and Chelsea, how you've been I've been good? How are you? Roy? I am, I'm very well. I'm anxious to push back from the table and let you two wonderful women take this conversation away because as a man, I'm gonna be quiet and listen also with us uh to talk about this and I'm very excited to have this person on the show because you know, she is a television and movie producer and writer, and a lot of the content that she creates is about putting black women in a positive light. She wrote the movie Girls Trip, creator and writer and EP of First Wives Club, and right now she is the creator and showrunner of the show Harlem on Amazon Prime, which explores the journey of black women through life. Tracy Oliver, thank you so much for coming on to talk to us about how this stereotype affects black women today. Of course, thank you guys for having me. I'm really excited about this. I'm sorry if my excitement throws you off a little bit, but I do like like there's just certain people that when we talk about their journey as a creative, there's a bit of a north star to you. Like people make shows. I think you can make a show, you can write any show. You've done a lot of stuff that does not exist in the realm of black womanhood, but every now and then you can. You keep coming back to that well, And I would love to know why that is. Um, I think there's a lot of reasons for it. I think that for me, writing is kind of therapeutic. And I always kind of thought of myself as like a writer slash activist. And so what I mean by that is, I don't necessarily like to write just to write or just to make money. I like to write something that has a purpose behind it, or there's imagery or something about it that I feel like it's missing in the conversation that I want to have a hand in exploring or bringing to the masses. But yeah, I mean, I always felt like growing up I didn't see enough representation of black women, and I just wanted to figure out a way to write and produce it and to make that stuff possible. And the first thing I think I ever did in the industry was offer Black Girl with Withra And that was literally a result of not getting meetings and not getting any traction when we were trying to make this a show ourselves, and so we were like, Okay, I guess we'll, you know, somehow put it together and put it online and make it happen. And so for me, writing about black women it's just kind of a necessary thing. I it's about passion. For me, it's about showing different aspects of life and womanhood that I didn't see, so it feels necessary and like kind of a requirement for me in that way, wonderful Like first, then then let's go back to a little bit then, Chelsea, the stereotype of the strong black woman. Explain that for our listeners who don't necessarily know that we know conversation before that, you know, let's give him the back story, explain the stereotype, and also why you and Dulce wanted to kind of start pulling at this thread on the show. Yeah, so the strong black woman stereotype actually came as a way to combat other negative black woman stereotypes, such as the idea of the Jezebel, which is like the overtly sexual black woman that we used to see a lot in media, the mammy character character trope, which we also used to see a lot in media, where you know, she's dehumanized, de sexualized, just constant nurturer, a larger, darker skin typically black woman. Um, that was very common, especially in the earliest part earlier part of the twentieth century. And also the sapphire stereotype, which we now have coined as the angry black woman stereotype. They're pretty much the same. So the strong black woman was actually stereotype was created by black women as a way to combat these previous stereotypes, and it was is basically the idea that black women are strong, we're resilient, um, we can do it all. And so it was meant to be a counter action and then kind of what ended up happening is that as tends to happen, it was taken all the way to the extreme um, which has now had some different effects than you know I think, right, yes, definitely the ladies I created it were not you know, thinking of UM, but you know that that happens sometimes. And in terms of you know, why did duel saying I want to bring it up? I think it's something that we see is so pervasive now, like more than I think a lot of the other stereotypes that I mentioned. You see strong black women a lot like in film and in TV UM and and just the idea of like the black woman's always there and she's going to save everybody, and especially if you have a white girlfriend, like she's going to be like the best Black girlfriend that she's ever had and give her a pep talk and you know, we all know the help. You know, she strong like, you're kind, you're important, you know, so we we've seen it all over. So if yes, exactly, you're smart, So we've seen it all over. So it felt like something that was important to kind of, um, get to the root of and and find out where is it? Where did it come from? And then where is it going? Tracy? Does it present a positive like? Does does that term strong black woman? Is there any positive connotations of that term? You know, because you know, I understand what Chelsea's saying, is that all right, this is to be a compliment. This was to make sure that hey, we're not just those negative things. And then society went, okay, well take on all the problem we have the times of Brown Jackson in the Supreme Court, fix everything right now, sister. So I know that it could be we've approached the space of it being overbearing to a degree. But is there anything positive with this stereotype? You know, not to like totally, you know, say bad things about it. I think that there's something awesome to explore and our resilience and our discipline and our determination, and I do actually think that black women have to be strong to to exist in like a professional space and exists in a lot of white spaces. There's a lot of like I think, meaning to the strong black woman, that's true, and I do actually think that the positive side of it is that it encapsulates, like all of the things that we kind of go through on a day to day basis that people may not know that we're dealing with, Like we're showing up and we're being strong no matter what, or we're working hard and holding down you know, kids and stuff, and there's a lot of different things that go into existing as a black woman every day that I think does make the strong black woman trope accurate. But I do think there's a downside to it as well, and I think that we're in a space now where it's time to kind of deconstruct that and to allow people to not be strong. Is I think really important for us as well. I guess this is, you know, for both of you all. But is there I'm trying to think of the tactful way to say this, But when we talk about this phrase going from something that's being inspiring and motivating to something that's a little more negative and harmful, how much do you all think that this phrase has contributed to an ideology and society, that black women can be, that black women can be society's emotional pack mules in the sense that will let them handle it. They can deal with it. It's not a big deal. Oh I'm a doctor. You're a black woman in pain. Oh you're a strong black woman. You can deal with that pain. There's no need to run extra tests to find out what the actual problem is with you. How much do you think this phrase has empowered people to just be ignorant to you know, the load that a black woman has to carry every day. Yeah, I definitely think at the downside to what Tracy was saying is really just like the dehumanization aspect, and it's just that people then only see you as a thing, like you're you're just a strong thing. You're not a person. And I think that's where it gets into trouble. To your point, Roy, like you know, it has been proven that black women get worse medical treatment. Um and like I know we've all seen with like when Serena Williams had her beautiful daughter, Olympia, and she said that she told the doctors that she felt something was wrong, they weren't listening to her, and then she ended up having a blood clot and that happens all the time, you know, for women who aren't famous as well, and Black women die very often because of maternal reasons like having children, and I think this plays into that because we're not believed and we're not listened to, and people think that we have a tougher, thicker skin. Um, So there's definitely, you know, a load with that. And then we also just have to carry all of the network stress as well, which is you know, the idea that we're carrying the stress of others that are just in our general network, whether that's our family, our friends, and that really does affect black women even more. And we are also less likely than especially white women to seek mental health help. So it definitely is one of those stereotypes that also like very much plays into other aspects of our lives. Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with all of that stuff, but you see the effects with mental health especially, Um, I think in professional spaces where Black women all a lot of us are reared to not show emotions, and so if you're going through something toxic at work, you know, I've I've literally seen some of my white colleagues kind of like get to a mode and scream and holler and cry and behave like that. But we know that they can sometimes get away with that stuff and not be deemed angry or not be deemed unprofessional, and we kind of have to keep it together even though we're subjected to the same stress as that they are. It requires like more strength for for us to kind of like present in this way, But it doesn't mean internally we're not going through stuff. So I think all of that the pressure that builds up inside when you're not allowed to emote, when you're not allowed to be vulnerable and to be truthful about the every day you know stresses that we're all dealing with. That's when you start to get into suicidal stories and you hear about people who are high functioning, um you know, depressed people. And that's because I can relate to this as I've been there. You can train yourself to kind of function and do the job that it's asked of you and just suppress your emotions and you're not really actually dealing with what's happening internally. And so eventually, if you don't get mental health help, you can't snap and you can break from all of that um that that stress and trauma that we're kind of dealing with. And another thing that I think, Um, it's interesting. I think it factors into relationships and dating and marriage and all that stuff. Um, I think that there's sorry, Roy, but there there are men not you, but there are men that don't allow women to be weak either or to be vulnerable. You know, we're supposed to be strong in relationships and keep the family together and and and keep it together for the kids, and we put all of this pressure on women to just be strong for everybody. And I even see it in pop culture a lot too. You know. It's it's just this idea that the white characters can be three dimensional and fully realized. And then you know, a Viola Davis pops in and like can just save the day and doesn't have all of the nuances and the and the and the layers you know, written out for her character sometimes like she has to be strong for everybody else, even in the help, you know. So it's like you see that, I think pop culture feeds into this like idea that we're just magical and we're gonna pop in and say everybody. And half the time the black women don't even have powers. Y'all got to do with the old fashioned way with gritting. Even the black men are just a little matter. We're a little bag of vance with it, but violent. They just got to do it ourselves. After the break, I want to talk a little bit more about the projects if you've created, specifically Harlem, and the way that you've crafted this show that pushes against a lot of those stereotypes. And I also want to talk about some of the ways that that stereotype integrates into the subconscious of television consumers without them even noticing it. It's beyond the scenes. We'll be right back on. Let's talk about Harlem. Now. This is a television show that you know, when we look at some shows that you know, really get into the trauma and heartache of what black women go through. This show is just straight up breath of fresh air. You've got four black women friends and Harlem living a lives, going about their business. Talk first about the importance of that, but also you know, I'm like, this is now be getting in side baseball, right. You create a show this black and it's speaking to the black experience. But sometimes these shows are viewed and given notes by producers that may not have lived that experience and may not completely understand everything that you're speaking to or pushing back against. What are some of the ways that negative stereotypes about black women traditionally seep into media and that you find yourself pushing back against those types of creative notes? If not with Harlem, just at any point from Awkward Black Girl with Us rate until now, have you ever had to push back against that type of stuff to make sure that you create the type of content that is like what Harlem is? Oh boy, yes, I had to let out the black girls side on that, But yeah, that's that's happened, I think my entire career. It's um It's something that I think most black riders unfortunately struggle with because again, you are dealing with mostly non black executives who don't know your experiences and also have an idea of blackness that they that they're interested in that may not be what you're interested in. The weird thing that I will say is that there's kind of a fascination with black pain and poverty that I feel like that's what they get really excited about. So yeah, and so you come in and you're like, yeah, these black girls, you know, they like sex and they like cocktails, and they're like, oh okay, but get to the the part where they're shot by cops and I'm like, she's ridiculously successful. It's making good, she's making she has a good career. Yeah, but you know, is there a gun? Right? Yeah, they're wondering when the gun will appear, or you know, is Megan's mom a crack mom? Like it's like always just something that you're like, No, I thought they could just be normal at some level, Like it doesn't have to be this like hyper like traumatized, painful situation. Like I think that we can have shows that just show people like having fun and falling in love and and I think within that show, and that's why we want to do the Strong Black Woman episode. You can do something that highlights a part of blackness that may not be all fun. But it was important to me, and it's always important to me to show that we are a happy, joyful group of people and that we we love and we live life and have a lot of amazing positive moments. So I don't want to just focus on um painful stuff. Strown Black Woman episode. Break that one down for people who haven't seen the series ship. So the Strong Black Woman episode kind of focuses on just are four main characters, and they're you know, black women, and so they're all kind of dealing with their version of a painful thing. And what's kind of funny about it is that they're not really opening up to each other even about some of the stuff that's happening, until like they're all kind of forced to in this like hospital room together. I'm so sorry. I was in therapy. I just got your message. No worries. It's good you're in a hospital bed. It is not all good. I cannot believe that she needed surgery when that asshole doctor wouldn't even give her a fucking pain pill. Yesterday. Yesterday, Oh dam you know what's bad? When Ty is crying. I thought i'd see the day. Sorry, I'm trying to be strong. Scary honey, Are you trying to be strong in a hospital? Bit? Being strong is so overrated? No, no, sorry, it's just there's a lot going on. Everybody stopped apologizing. We always had to apologize. Sick, You're the only one of us. It was not a mess. It's not true. I am a man. I'm just not allowed to talk about it, you know, with the queer character tie, we decided to give her um you know, the fibroids issue, and that's something that disproportionately affects black women. And I didn't even know that. That came up through a writer in my writer's room, and you know, she was dealing with the fibroids issue, and I was fascinated by it. And then of course um went just like the character went to the hospital, was told to take some pain medicine and kind of dismissed and then ended up passing out. And then you know, later found out it was a ruptured or varian cysts and it could have been you know, very very like catastrophic for had she not gone to the hospital. At that point, that conversation kind of led me to just this idea of like black pain and how people look at us and think that, you know, we're stronger than everybody else, and that we have a high pain tolerance, and for some reason, there's just a lack of empathy when we go to you know, doctors or medical centers. It's like, for whatever reason, you can look at a white woman in pain and somehow relate to it and empathize with it, but with a black person, they kind of more often than not, UM send you home with just regular pain medicines, and we use the toughest you know character as far as you know how she presents on the outside to be the most vulnerable in this one, because we wanted to kind of make a point with that. But yeah, we just we're exploring mental health. We're exploring um issues in the workplace that that go awry. And then on the other end with one of our characters, were just kind of exploring like when you are going through something at work and it's driving you crazy and it's like taking its toll on you on the inside, but you can't do anything about it because you might lose your job. So it's just a lot of stuff that we were like, there are different versions of pain. What was what was interesting about that episode to me? Also with that character ties that you know, she's a member of the l g B, t Q plus community and so you have this queer woman that is still dealing with issues that affect all women. And I think that sometimes when we look at when we look at that community, it's easy sometimes especially as a straight man, head old man, to disassociate queerness and LGBTQ issues from feminine or a woman, and like somehow it's just it's you what you are also a woman too? You move fibroid. I had the surgery, so I'm all good, right, I mean, I know this would be recovery time. Unfortunately, not quite. That cyst was just the tip of the iceberg. You have several medium and large fibroids and a polyp on your uterine lining. The good news is that we can take care of everything at once with a hysterector. WHOA well, who damn that's a bit juristic, don't you think? Of course it is? Well, I got the feeling you're not interested in giving birth, and it really is the easiest and most effective treatment, easiest for who just because I'm mask doesn't mean I'm not a woman, And nobody asked you for your feelings. That would be the rest of your laps hang off. I am so sorry, Tie. So it's so many boxes that are beautifully checked and layered. And to that point, Chelsea, what what what did y'all leave out of this segment? Because Tracy just broke down in one episode about eight different boxes that women be going through in one episode or one character. Well, what like when it's time to edit the script before you even go out and shoot, what they'll say? How did you all start going? Okay? Well, which things can we not educate folks about? Yeah? I feel like that's always the hardest thing, isn't it's just editing down? Um. I feel like with this one, we probably didn't get as much into the real life effects as we could have, because again, we only have so much time. But to what Tracy and I were speaking about earlier is this really does have tangible um effects on Black women, and it is not solely just like a trope that it's just kind of there in media but doesn't actually exist in real life. So I feel like we didn't get as much into that. But you know, like the strong black woman trope or the superwoman myth, I feel like they're about the same thing. Really does negatively affect a lot of Black women, And I would say, to a degree, the negatives almost outweigh the positives in my opinion, um of it, just because you know, we are more likely to have higher blood pressure and just you know, be stressed out. To my earlier point, and you know, just all of these things, we're just not as cared for, and the empathy is not there. To Tracy's point, which we could have gotten into that a little bit more into the mental health aspect of it and how that's such a big part as well. Tracy, how do people well, you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna save that question for after a break, because because I do want to look forward in the ways that you know, not just black women can contribute to the betterment of black women. You know, I do need to ask a couple of questions as black man. I do also want to ask what are things that black women can do to facilitate their own humanization in the face of people that do not see them as equal, Like not just with the doctor, but also with the workplace and and down. Can I touch your hair? And you know, you know, how do I say no to you trying to touch my hand still keep my job? You know, things like that. After after the break, I'm gonna ask about that, and then I'm gonna beg you to put me in a cameo role on Harlem. Beyond the Scenes will be right back. Welcome back to Beyond the Scenes. We are talking about the stereotype of the strong black woman in ways that you know, we can change that perception that just because you are strong doesn't mean that someone needs to be walking up on you and testing your strength on a regular basis. Madam Oliver, what are the tactful ways that black women who are dealing with microaggressions and the types of things that we've talked about so far on this episode that they can swerve and dodge that type of stuff without making a big ruckis at work? Or is a RUCKI is inevitable for people to respect you? That is a That's a tricky one. I would say. I would say setting boundaries is really really important. And I think when I was first starting out, I didn't know how to do that because I always felt like I needed to be a people pleaser or I needed to just say yes to be liked and to get ahead in that way. You know, I don't want to make anyone upset, and so even if something made me uncomfortable, if I didn't want to actually like socialize outside of work with a certain person, I would be like, Okay, sure, let's do drinks. I guess I have to. And now I'm just kind of like yeah, if I don't want to do something, I try to set a boundary and just say, you know, this will not work for me, or I'm not interested in that, but thank you so much and so and it takes practice, but setting boundaries in a polite way is really really helpful. And unfortunately because I've had a lot of conversations with people about this, because they'll say, but you're in a different position now than you used to be, so of course you can set boundaries and you now and you couldn't before, And so I do want to acknowledge that that is part of the issue is that I think there are way too many people that use their power and privilege to force people into toxic situations and into bullying and all kinds of you know, inappropriate situations at work. And it is hard when you don't have, you know, that power and privilege to get out of those situations. So I don't want to make light of that because it is it's very difficult to navigate when you're first starting out. Um, but I will say, if there's any way to set any kind of boundary against something that is deeply offensive to you, or have allies in the workplace and make sure you always have you know, a friend, president, or somebody with you that can vouch for a situation, because unfortunately, when it's a he said, she said things, sometimes you do need another person or if someone makes you uncomfortable, you can just figure out ways of never being isolated or alone with that person. So I would just always be like conscious of these things at work and and and try to make it pleasant. And I will say this, um, I wish I could say the show, but I wrote for a show years ago that was by far the most toxic work environment I've ever seen in my life. It was so toxic. I was only woman in the room, and it was so toxic that all the men even were like this is bad, and and they were even like, I feel so sorry for you because I feel side for myself, so I know this is really awful for you. And there was one day in particular that I was being targeted because it was like I was literally every day. It was like you just had to take shots every day, and there was sex jokes or they're like you're pitching ideas for an episode and they're like striking it down and telling you don't talk, like yeah, calling you names, yelling in your face, saying that stupid, cursing at you just and so it was an environment that's hard to pitch in because you're you're nervous, You're you're like, you have all this anxiety and you're like, I hope I don't mess up. And whenever you get like that, whenever someone's created an environment where you're kind of set up to fail, it's kind of a self ful feeling prophecy at that point, because you start spiraling because you're just afraid in that environment. And so I remember there was one day because I've been doing the show for months and we were almost done too. I was like two weeks away from finishing, and I am now I'm gonna I'll just keep it real. I snapped. I did. I couldn't take it anymore. And I remember this one black guy in the room said walk with me, and we went outside the building and we just took a walk and he was like, you got two more weeks, don't do it. And he was like it's just not worth it, and like without that talk, I mean, because he saw it escalating and so he literally was like I'm gonna pull you out of this and physically grabbed me out of the room, and um, I say that because yeah, I was bottling up a lot of like anger and resentment and it just kind of exploded. And what he said to me was that they're not gonna own what they did to you. You're gonna be the black girl that the angry black girl that blew up in the room. So don't go out like that like you've been, you know, exemplary this entire time. You have two weeks left, just right it out, don't you know. You're almost at the finish line. But it took everything and me to get back in my seat and continue working and I finished, you know, the two weeks. But yeah, those those jobs are really hard. And that's why I think you do need allies, you know, it's it's a and if you don't have allies and you have a toxic work environment, I think you gotta look for a new job, like because what you don't want to do is ruin your own mental health. It's not worth it, Like it really isn't. So what you're saying is that you did not go to the rat party for this particular show. Oh no, I'm getting my drinks now. I earned those drinks, Chelsea, are we at a place now like what this is it? Here's a question, Chelsea, what do you watch? What are your what are your what are your positivity shows? You know? Because I believe that there's so much stuff that's that's out there now where, And you can correct me if I'm wrong, because you know I don't have the same peel v. But when I see black women thriving in shows within television, if we went just say Insecure, Black Ladies, Sketch Show, Harlem, if we just went with those three out the gate, right, then there was a time if we look at the golden age of what I consider to be the golden age of black sitcoms, which is the nineties where we go girlfriend and we go living single and we talk about comparative shows, that was. That's like a nice solid fifteen to twenty years late. I feel like we're at a time now where there are more roles that are positive. But is there still room for improvement? Yeah? I mean I think there's always room for improvement, right, you can always have more because it was funny. I think, um Alfred was it Alfrey Woodard? I want to say, did recently did an interview with the had Reporter along with Lorence Tate and some other like black famous people, and she was saying, we actually have more black content on TV like now than we've ever had, just because with streamers, we have a lot more options than ever. But is that content actually being marketed to those people? Is it actually getting out to the people that it needs to is the the bigger question, because it's like we can have a million and one black shows, but our people. Do people know those shows are on? And are they watching them because they know the shows are on? You know what I mean? So you know, I feel like there's definitely more that can be done on that side. Um. I always love to see more and more black content personally. UM so I hope we have even more in the future. But in terms of like what I will be watching, you know, I love like All American I like Harlem, I like Run the World, Um Insecure what you mentioned that just went off, So just like those kind of shows, I think just even more because I think as people have said, like you know that we've had so many versions of like SX in the City that are white, but we have not like it's like now we have like you know one or two that are black, and and people are just kind of like, well, why we aren't we we have so many of these, and it's like, no, we don't. We don't get the grand scheme of things. We don't. We can have even more because there's more stories to be told, more nuanced to be there um and even within just like what does it mean to be black? There's just so many things that are in there that have not been explored yet that I think we can have doubled the amount of content that we have right now. Honestly, what are what are the blind spots that you see that remain right now within the industry, Tracy, I would love to see more black people in different genres, so like sci fi, I think horror. I mean, my dream honestly is to do like a black assassin um thing. So I hope I get a chance to do that one day. But yeah, so I'm just trying to find ways of like taking us out of even though I love comedy and that's like my roots, trying to take us out of just comedy and like put us in other genres as well. What can men do to create healthier spaces for black women? You know? I'll tell you what my battle is as as a as a romantic partner. The mistake that I have sometimes made in dating has been woman is black black, and I'm talking about dating black women, is there is a problem that does not involve me, that their energy is off. And the default sometimes as a man is to ignore the problem, is to ignore the pain and try to solve the problem when that isn't necessarily what's needed in that moment. And what I've often failed at is trying to properly emote, Hey, what do you need? How can I give you what you need? What mistakes do men, specifically black men make when it comes to trying to relate to what black women are going through? You know? And I think that can kind of spill over the white man too if you work with one a date one. Yeah, I mean there's definitely, I would say problems with all men, but let's say specifically it's a black men. I think. I mean, there's a big conversation right now just about like kind of this divide that's happening where a lot of Black women are feeling like black men don't have our backs, and like when it comes to like a lot of issues that are affecting black women, they don't show up for it. And then when it's in reverse, like you know, say, the go to issue that you know that I think black men always talk about is is police violence and anything like that in that arena, and whenever a black man is killed, um, you know, by cops, we always show up for it. We always rally because we don't look at it as like, well, it's a dude that die, that's not my problem, Like we don't we don't look at it like that. It's like we're all in a community together and we just want that same respect and same support. And it feels like there's a lot of crickets sometimes when it's an issue that pertains to black women. And so I think we can start with just listening and supporting the way that we have historically done for black men. But Tracy, I wear my Protect Black Women T shirt all the time. Isn't that enough? Do you? Really? I do wish that there were larger conversations around that, And you know, Chelsea, did that come up at all in the creating of this segment. It's just, you know, when we start talking about some of the solutions that lie there, I don't think that this is a problem that is solely for black women to solve and learn how to cope with, as much as it is for people to quit doing the things that stressed them the hell out Did that conversation come up with dull say and figuring out what parts of this segment would ultimately make it on air. We didn't directly get into like how men play into it, but I do think it's an important aspect um. I do think to Tracy's point, the biggest thing is really to listen and also to uplift, like are you making sure that you are if you're in a work setting, are you making sure that you're uplifting your black female coworker her idea is getting put up there in front of everybody else. Is she getting promoted? And if you're getting promoted, are you making sure that you know she is as well, or let people at least keeping her in the conversations, because I do think, you know, similar to when we did our Black and Corporate America podcast a few months ago that we brought up black men do get um, you know, at the end of the day, a privilege for being men that women, just the black women just don't have we have a double it's a double jeopardy, right. So I think men in general, but especially to black men, make sure that you are actively trying to do something to help out your fellow black women, whether that's at work, whether that's at home, whether you know that's on the internet, and helping to actually protect black women. Um, you know, I think, like that's really the honest is on men in that regard. The only thing I've ever known to do, you know. And you know, and Chelsea, you've met my girlfriend, like there she professionally she swims in waters that I know nothing about that I cannot relate to. I don't know anything about the fashion industry. I don't know anything about some purchase order drama with with Bloomingdale's and the boat is doing you turns in the ocean because of COVID and the shoes didn't get to the whatever place in time. But what I can do is try to take every other worry off your plate in the house. So I do that, I guess, and you know, like I try to help, but like, is there how can men what are the ways in which and and this just isn't even in a dating capacity, This is co working capacity. These are your best friend's capacity. How can you acknowled edge someone's resiliency and their strength without making it seem like it's something that, well, yeah, you need to be strong because I'm gonna keep it, Like, are there ways to positively acknowledge someone's resiliency without it seeming like you're taking a dig at what they're going through? I would say, you know what I mean, Like, you show a lot of handling that stress. Good way to go, Like, I'm not trying to make it sound like that, and that's and I'm gonna you know, sometimes it may say and I don't want that? So are there ways do you wait until it's a non stressful time to acknowledge observations you saw when they were stressed? Like what are the ways that we can extend grace to others? I would say that I think asking what do you need help with? Is very undervalued and can definitely be asked a lot more, especially by in like a dating or a spouse or you know situation. It's just like what can I do to help you? Because sometimes that's a lot better of a question than how are you feeling? Or something? Um, it's easier to express, I would definitely say, and then I would also say, you know, like learning in terms of like you know, with your girlfriend who works in fashion, like maybe learning, you know, not learning everything, but learning some of the ins and outs of fashion is also helpful. Like I know, when I told my parents that I wanted to be an entertainment my dad went on like a whole TV and film binge Like now he watches like everything and he sends me articles on the Holy Report, like you know, but he was like very invested. He's like, well, this is what you want to do. You're my daughter. I'm invested in you. So I'm going to make sure that I know, I keep abreast and I know the ladies that's going on in your industry, and I'm going to try and help you out as best as I can. And he did that without me asking him. I mean, obviously that's you know, father daughter, of course, but I do think it's a it's a good um thing to practice for most men. It's just like, are you actually you know, making sure that you're interested in what you're significant other or your co worker is interested in, and trying to help them as best as you can. Because the more you learn the more you know, Yeah, exactly that I would. I'm just gonna basically I goo what you're saying. But I think even acknowledging someone in that way helped so much because I think, especially in professional environments, there's not enough like personal checkens, like you know, how are you doing? How can I help? Is there any way that I can assist or be an advocate? And I think, you know, just a man approaching a woman with curiosity and like a genuine interest in helping or understanding or just empathy is already a big step. We can feel alone, and we can feel like we don't have a safe space in which to open up or to express some of these vulnerabilities. And so if someone comes and says like I want to have that type of relationship where you can, you know, trust and know that I have your back, it automatically opens up. Like you know, uh, I think for a woman just kind of like a safe space and a vulnerability to relax and be yourself in a way that you're not if you don't know that safe space is there, because we're kind of taught to like keep our defenses up and keep our walls up until we know we trust you because you know, we're not gonna just open up to anybody. But if you if you come and say like I got your back, like that automatically disarms me and it makes me feel like, all right, I have a friend when it comes to relationships. Um, what I'm discovering is that a lot of men, I don't know it's a black male thing or a man thing, but sometimes like men don't even think women have needs, which which is like, I think that's crazy, But I'm starting to realize I'm like, oh wow, because I think men are really sometimes very comfortable and emoting about their needs and what they what they're expectations are of women. But I don't know, if I know, I wasn't socialized as much as men have been socialized to demand my needs in relationship or to be upfront about like, you know what I need a partner to bring to the table. It's always like, well, let me groom myself to be a good partner for a man. But we need to shift that conversation because women have needs as well. We we broke it down a couple of ways that men can help. I'm going to use that one about yes, So what do you need for me and sprinkle. That went into the conversation later on how can women help women are there? What are what do you all do to decompress? Let's just in there, But now we talk about self care and therapy is a little more. I think we're past the point of the conversation of therapy being a zeitgeisty thing. I really do think it's getting through two people now. But what are some of the things that you all do just when the world is stressing you out? I guess I would say therapy. Um, But um, also, you know, I feel like that for me, that's what media is like, that's what I That's why I watched TV, and that's why I watch films. It's kind of it's a form of escapism. Um. Also being in community with like, you know, my friends, that helps out a lot. And just being able to have a safe space where I can talk to people about anything and everything and whether it's you know, negative positive, all of that I think is really important. And then other than that, you know, I would just say, trying to protect my piece as best as I can. Um, it's like the biggest thing. Sometimes you got to send people to voicemail wrong with that family included. Family love to think that they just get an automatic carte blanche answer, No, you don't. I also think physical exercise is really useful. And it took me a long time, way too long to see the link between my like the moments where I'm depressed and then when I'm also the laziest I've ever been, and so I'm like, oh, okay, So I guess you do have to fight it, because sometimes your instinct when you're not feeling great is to not work out because it's like, why would I do something else that I hate? And but what what I'm realizing now is that you get endorphins from it and then find and exercisesn't have to be the traditional way that you hate it. There can just be walking outside, it can be going dancing with some friends. Just move your body and get that like negative energy out. As far as how women can help other women, I think we've got to like take out that like like scarcity mindset that you know, we can only have one at a time. I think that's been the most harmful thing that women have ever been taught, is that we have to be competitive with each other. There's not space for all of us. So I think in the workplace, like take that energy out and just go in there with good intentions and trying to you know, be an ally with women and stuff and figure out how you guys can work together and create things together versus I'm going to take this bitch out, Like I think that's just like a really unproductive negative way to live. Like when the other black woman gets hired at the place you were, Hello, it's only one of us can survive, right right. I'll also add deep breathing is very underrated. Deep breathing for like ten minutes a night. I've recently started doing it um very helpful. And then also sleep very underrated. Like making sure that you get your rest very very important. Isn't it a nap church. There's some church, some ministry that just na ministry. Yeah, ministry, what is what is this? It's a nap church. They just met once a day and talk about the importance of napping, and they've they've tied it into spirituality somehow. I'm gonna trying to join a church so that I can get a nap at work, and then they can't fire because my religion figured it out. Roy that's perfect well, Thank you so much, ladies for this wonderful, wonderful conversation. We will be watching Harlem on Amazon Prime and thank you all both for taking us beyond the scenes. Thank you Roy. Listen to The Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcast, the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts.