Are we being brainwashed by cop shows? Daily Show producer Madeleine Kuhns and writer Ashton Womack join Roy to look at the legacy and popularity of policing onscreen, and how it shapes our relationship with police in the real world.
Watch the original segment:
Original air date: September 21, 2021
Well, I tell you one thing. I put my career on the line for this. They can take my badge and take my gun and call me a loose cannon. But if I have to break down every law in the books, then damn it, I'm gonna do it. Because I'm doing this podcast, because this is beyond the scenes. Damn it. This is where we dig into your favorite segments from the Daily Show and we don't stop until we solve them, no matter what the costs. And if you haven't guessed by now, we're talking about police and how they're portrayed on TV shows. It's called copaganda. It's a piece we did about cop shows that have dominated TV for decades and how the portrayal of policing affects our understandings of law enforcement in the real world.
Roll the tape police dramas are iconic, hugely popular, and now under intense fire from activists who say these shows far too readily portray cops as good and trustworthy hand while undermining real life claims of systemic racism and abuse.
Police not only consulting these shows, but they're also very aware that their portrayals impact public perception, and they have a vested interest in making sure that portrayal is positive.
Yes, believe it or not, watching cop shows makes a lot of people see the police as infallible, and honestly, I don't blame any of these people. I mean, I'll admit a lot of my perceptions about reality have been shaped by TV as well. Part of the reason it's easy for TV shows to convince people that cops are always right and always good at their jobs is because that's what we want to believe. I think we can all agree that we want people who are going to enforce laws fairly and effectively so that we don't have to do it ourselves.
I know I don't want to do it now. To talk a little bit more about this topic, we're going to talk with the people to help make this piece come together. Too hard. Those detectives who brought this piece to life, and they live for the Daily Show, bad on their chess. They both own Blue Bloods on VHS and DVD because they're diehards. One of our Deep Dot producers, Medaling Coons, Hello to you, Hello, Hello, and one of our writers, Ashton womec Ashton, how you're doing Ashton? I heard that you own the whole box set of law and order.
LA. Yes, I do only to learn what not to do and how to avoid the cops. That's what I study it.
So for the people who missed this segment, could you all, I'll start with you, Madeline, tell me what this segment is all about.
The segment's called copaganda, and a lot of that is just like it's looking at like just the prevalence of cop shows I think if you think of I mean, one is like the most watched genre of like all TV. Like it's the most popular genre of like all TV shows, which is crazy, and just like the absolute prevalence of that on TV, and like how that actually influences our opinions in real life about law enforcement because, as we mentioned in the piece, like just like like most Americans really have such little interactions with police, you know, I think it's it's like twenty percent of like all Americans, so like we really don't see the police side often, and yet we have this like deep familiarity with like law enforcement and like the policing system in a way that doesn't quite make sense unless you take into the count like the hours and hours of TV watched and like the media that we consume.
That statistic you just said was crazy. All Americans, of all black people have definitely dealt.
With the cops. It's like, and we're only like thirteen percent of the country.
Like, where are you stuff forward.
Lucky individual, Ashton? Did copaganda work on you growing up in the sense of you see these shows where you know, essentially the police are always right, they do whatever it takes to get the suspect, and you, the viewer understand I had to break that rule otherwise that bad guy would have gotten away with the thing. How much did television influence your views and opinions of the police.
It never influenced my opinions of the police, because I had actual experience with the police. So when you you can show me something on TV all day, but if I go outside and experience a whole different reality, I'm just disconnected. I don't believe what you're showing me. So I always grew up. That's why, Like you said earlier, it was a joke, But I genuinely did not watch like my mom watched NYPD New York Undercover. That was like probably the one show.
Yeah, that's the one they got black people we watched that. I don't want to age myself. For yeah, I'm in Paul key Mama's age. It was Malik Yoba many like, wasn't the Puerto Rico guy. I forgot to help with that. But in the last act of every episode, they would play music and it would be a live artist. So so you got to see black music and culture. But we also took them down and put them into a system that they ain't gonna treat them fairly, but they get in front of a judge.
That was my experience with watching TV or watching cops on the TV. I would watch cops and obviously rooted for the people running. I'm like, come on, dog, jump that gate, jump the gate, make it.
And that was when you watched cup shows to root for the criminal. Yes, I've had, you know, my own experiences. You know, I've I've said this, you know, I haven't said this often in life, but I've had a gun pulled on me five times. Four of them were police officers. Jesus, to the point where if just a regular dude on the street pulled a gun on me, I liked them odds better. You're almost like, show me a badge in a in a in a weird way, because you know, there are certain cops that are gonna follow the rules and they the training worked fine, But the likelihood of me running into a cop that is nervous is higher than me running into a dude off the corner who's nervous. Because if you just a regular ass dude, robbing somebody is one of the boldest things that you've already decided that nothing can happen to you. So within that boldness, oddly, I believe is some level of decorum.
You know, like there's honor amongst thieves, but not amongst cops.
A parent like that's I'm just saying. If you told me your gun was gonna get pulled on me in tomorrow, and I got to choose random dude on subway track or police officer, I would choose random dude on subway track.
And that's a huge testament to policing in America, especially for black people. That's crazy that you feel that way. You should be calling you should be calling the cops on the guy, but instead you have to If you call the cops, they gonna come and pull the gun on you. They a't gonna think the robber is still in the he's still here and then.
Like and you bring up say, like Roy, you bring up a really good point about being like the nervousness of police, because I do think like a huge theme and like cop like cop shows and procedurals is showing like how cops are not only like superhuman, but like they're making these split second decisions like with a very cool head and a most like moving away that's very confident on screen. And so people kind of use that and transpose that. I think when they think of cops in real life, like they don't understand that there is like someone who is being nervous and not you know, like it kind of it pushes that idea that like the decision that the cops are making is always right on TV because they're not hesitating.
The one thing that I've always found ridiculous in any police show or any police movie is when they comment be or a regular person's vehicle to keep the car chase going, like the Robert takes a motorcycle and then the cop Like Bad Boys Too is the best example where it was on the test drive and they snatched Dan Marino afterca It's like, come on, you wouldn't do.
Well stop the cop pop the trunk, get out, get in.
I'm in the middle of a shell.
We'll have to pull my gun. Oh ship, damn Marino, what's uping? Back up?
Then?
Hey, you're the truth. Whatever you need officers, Hey, Marcus, that's damn Marina. Hey back up. Let me know how it rides. Oh, he gonna test drive the shit out this. And it's always like dramatic. They're like holding like some groceries and they'll be like what then they throw up some like orange.
It's good.
It's the flashing of the badge or not. They're just like police and you know, like they're just like, who is this?
Who is this random dude?
I'll say this, The conversation around copaganda almost ruined Bad Boys three for me. I'm glad I got that one in just for a while. That came out January, the same year of George Floyd, and like I was like, who, I'm glad I got my trilogy. Now I can stop watching them movies.
What you can retire now.
We waited. We're like, we're not going to do that to you.
What made you all want to talk about this piece? Like just walking through the genesis of this conversation in the building. Did this start in the writer's winging Ashton, or did this start over in research in the producer winging with you, Madeline?
So before so I'm in a like a smaller department called where called like the Deep Dive department. So you know, we do a lot of like looking into a lot of like non headline issues. Ashton is our very successful alumnus. So last year, back when he was in Deep Dive, this was about it was like the end of June, like the last week of June is like when this aired. So a few weeks before that, when we were talking about just the rise of like the Black Lives Matter protests that were springing up like across the country and the world after George Floyd was murdered. It was watching over and over again, you know, both just watching the news but also you know, for work, just watching the overwhelmingly peaceful protests and then seeing the police brutality that was like being brought into that peaceful space and just seeing those images over and over again, and the videos of people who are very young, you know, but almost always black, and and Ashton can talk more about this, uh, but you know one thing that I think got me started to think about this issue is just or this piece was more just because you know, Ashton was protesting and the way that he was beaten by police officers and like seeing that happened so close to home in a way, you know, made me really it got me thinking a lot of just again, as one of the not one of the twenty one percent of Americans who've ever really had uh run ins or police encounters, and just how looking at what was in front of me and how unmemorable the few and police like police encounters I've had in real life are that I just don't remember, Like I don't remember them that much because they're not They're not consequential in that way. So it was really trying to like get to the bottom of that.
Let's stay with that for a second. Ashton Madeline says she can't even remember most of her encounters with the police. Walk me through some of yours.
H I don't even know where to start. I mean, even as like growing up and you grew up in a black neighborhood, it's just ingrained you. I can't even remember the time when I ever thought like police were heroes or good. It's always been a negative interaction with my community to the point where, like you play cops and robbers, don't nobody want to be the cops. Everybody's like, shit, I'm a robber. You got no one you saw when you see someone coming in and harassing your community, you don't. You don't see them as the good guys. I remember, I've had plenty of interactions when I was younger in Texas. I got arrested for weed twice when I was a teenager. Everybody, you know, obviously it's proven black, brown, white kids kids are doing smoking weed at the same exact a rate. There's no there's no race doing doing it more. Yet I would hear these insane stories about how my friends would get pulled over and the cops be like, oh, you're good, Oh you're good. But if they just smell anything around us, we were going to jail. We had to deal with because we would go with we were in probation. We had to deal with getting put into the cycle that keeps people in jail, especially black people. Telling you, going, yeah, exactly, you get put in a situation just because of the color of your skin to be in a cycle of the carceral system. You have to you go to probation. They say you need to find a job and pay these and pay these fees, or you're going back to jails. Well, if I don't have no job and I can't I can't pay. If I can't pay, I'm going to jail. I've had a lot of interactions with the police, with the carceral system. It's kind of designed for me to have those interactions. It's clear as day that I was dealing with a racist system, and so were all my friends around you. And it's not until hearing stories like Madelines that it's like, oh, you really had a different experience. Dealing with the police like that made up a large part of my teenage youth and stress and my mom disappointed in me and me thinking it plays that it has plays deeper effects on you because you don't think you're gonna be able to succeed in life. You feel like you're you've been thrown away, and that what that's that's I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels as.
When we come back to Beyond the Scenes, we're gonna talk a lot more about copaganda. And I know both of y'all got a favorite cop show. So don't even sit here in front like you don't start thinking. Now I've.
Only one, Okay, yeah.
Don't lie, you're asking us one.
I was like, how can we how can we.
Choose the one that I love I consider one of the best television series of all time, And I'm so ashamed when I tell y'all the premise of the show, Ashton is going to be furious. Well, Madeline, I'm gonna start with you. We're talking about copaganda. Copaganda which is the deliberate or unintentional portrayal of police and a positive light to thus make law enforcement look very agreeable and as if our criminal justice is working for everyone when we know that it isn't. But even when we know that, I still think we all have guilty pleasures. There's foods that you're not supposed to eat that you eat you know they're bad for you. So we all know there's TV shows that are kind of bad for your mind that just steal sometimes. Check out, Madeline, what is your favorite cop show of all time?
I mean, I will say the one that.
It's not one of the typical procedurals in terms of like hops, but criminal minds, which is all about like the FBI, like profiling serial killers. It follows like the same exact formula and the template and like, I don't know. It was on all the time when I was in grad school. I was in Ireland and like the only TV channel that we got was just like criminal Criminal Minds, like during the break and I was like, well, this is what I'm watching, like, and I just got so addicted to that show.
But it was also really crazy. I was just like, oh, wow, we're.
Exporting like the way that we see law enforcement and policing to like the rest of the world. So but yeah, no, I watch like all of it and it's not good but huguely problematic.
Ashton, I already know your answer. You watched New York Undercover, but that's only because Malik Yoba was in it in iced tea. I grew up watching TJ. Hooker Syndication. By that point, William Shatton are just as a tough LA detective, always in a foot chase with action music playing and all of that nineties early arts. New York Undercover and then Third Watch was a show that I love. It wasn't extremely popular, but I thought it was well done. But my goat TV show. I have four TV shows that I think are just cannon in this television universe, The Wire, The Sopranos, Breaking Back, and The Shield.
Oh okay, yeah, we definitely want that.
You got violent there at the end.
Yeah, now when we talk compaganda, and this is gonna dovetail into my question about your you all's research into researching this this this segment. But The Shield, for those who never saw it, it was a show about a dirty cop unit. It was based on the Rampart unit in LAPD that was just running rough shot over people in the nineties. But in the show, they were a dirty unit, but they sometimes do the wrong thing for the right I'm a dirty cop and I steal, but I still to pay for the private school for my autistic child. See like me? Right, No, I hate you. There was a cop that was investigating the unit, and this is the pilot of The Shield. I'm not even giving away the series. The first episode there's a clean cop investigating the dirty cops and they kill him and the rest of the series is the lengths that they go to cover up that crime.
Oh wow, this kind of sounds good.
It's one of the best television shows ever written.
But I mean it was a big rise of like the antihero. That's like he was like.
Vic Mackian's on the soprano were the only two that existed. Those are the only two characters that existed where I should hate you, but you do good things because he would also do dirty stuff and solve the crime of the week, but he would break all of the rules to oh, my daughter has been kidnapped and it was a Colombian, so then he would go into the hood and chop off eight Colombians. My bad, that was the wrong Colombian. Anyway, we found.
There, but we found her in the Yeah, it's very like ends justify means.
I bring all of that up to ask you all, in the process of researching this, what were some of the common themes that you saw through all of this in terms of the programming.
There's like three on the top of my head that come to mind, and like the first one, well, the first one was that like all these like all these cop shows, just like how many there are, and like just like the format of the procedural of like solving a crime every week, it really makes it seem like violent crime is like increasing or like this like reality that we live in where and in fact, like violent crime has been like trending downward over time.
So it's just like that this idea of just.
Like seeing crime all the time makes us like deeply fearful and makes like having a police force necessary, which i you know, is not the way that you need to view the police force, especially if you're looking at like funding issues and things like that. The second one was more like like this like weird like color blind magical world where there's like a lot of black and brown people in roles and like judges and like other police officers. So it's like there's race, but racism doesn't exist. So it's just like you're like, oh, so that's okay that he's chasing that guy because it's not about a systemic problem or like if they do deal with race. It's like a very special episode and it's all about like one black cop dude. I mean, he's like he was mean to me, and it's like must be hard for you, you know, and it's just like, oh, but.
It's like that, why are season four?
Yeah, it's like the whole yeah, exactly, Like it's that one guy, not a system. It's okay.
We're moving on and we're never gonna mention this again. Just like this idea of like I did what I had to do, you know, like this idea that like the way that we have normalized like the abuse, like the intimidation, the like boatloads of like illegal surveillance that these shows do, and just like we normalize that feeling, and so it's excused and justified, and we think like the cops have to do it to be good, and so because the police are the good guys that like, it's almost just like even when they're bad, like the system only works because they the police break the rules. Like that's the only way the justice system works. They can't just break protocol because we think it's right at the time and expect to get away with it.
Normally, i'd agree with you, but in this case, I'd rather the rest for forgiveness and permission.
As you well know, we will need a warrant to search the house.
Agent Callen, these are exigen circumstances. You let me worry about the legal ramifications.
If I could have been the rules a little bit to get a bad guy off the street, I'm going to do it. You would too, forget ones forget the rules. It's on us to catch you.
That was cool, although what that guy was actually saying is the Constitution is pussies.
I guess the things that stuck out to me as well it was like what they didn't show. It was like it was like the say, the people who wrote these TV shows were the same people who wrote Florida's critical race theory laws. They're like, we're taking all the black stuff out. You just read you don't even pay attention to black stuff. And it's like, that's what I paid attention to. Having the cops, they're just trying to trying to make them lovable when I just never saw a lovable cop, And I was like, who are these who are these down to earth humane cops? And why am I not getting any of them? That was that was what I noticed the most, And like like Mad's was saying, it was how they portray these cops as these like just anti heroes, and and what kind of really did stick out was like seeing them break the law even in their own system, Like they couldn't say, like like I was saying, say if they needed something out of evidence locker, they would break the law in the police department. They would they didn't follow the law anywhere. They'd be like, let me, I need something out of here, out of the evidence locker, and they'd be like, sorry, I'm not allowed to and then they smash their head against the evidence locker and then the evidence locker opens up and they're like, guess I didn't need you anyway, and they were yeah, it's like you broke the law in the department. And it's like to me, what it was upsetting to me because it's like, well, it's you're normalizing this behavior and you're allowed. You're we were basically giving sanction to for officers to be that violent and that like aggressive even throughout the entire time.
I'm so sorry I pitched the sashion because we had to watch so much, like we had to watch so many episodes, like.
We watched we watched a lot of TV.
It was brutal.
A lot of TV was super bad.
There was just like some crazy, crazy, like crazy episodes that I was like, how there was a Blue Boods episode where a cop like literally he chases I suspect who is black into an apartment building, like pulls out his gun and is like stop free you know, freezer whatever.
The guy on the second floor throws.
Himself out of the window, lands on the ground, and then he like breaks his arm. So he's like police brutality, police brutality, And I was like, this does not but it was like a three minute long, you know scene, so like you can't we couldn't use it. But I was just like, who sees this and thinks that's what police brutality is?
Brutality?
Wait?
Wait, don't shoot shut your mouth, Hey, back inside the apartment.
Tenor apple chance against all, I promise.
He puts me on the window, he just hold down, He'll just stop moving.
No brutality. Give me some examples of stuff that you wish it made it into the piece, but didn't because of the time.
The kid's piece, the kids portion. What's that the propaganda that gets shown to children, uh and you know, slowly indoctrinates them into believing, uh that you know, everything is good with the policing in America and getting them to which I mean, you don't want to like, which is it is a fine line of walk. You don't want to introduce uh, negative thoughts around policing, but you do want to be honest to your kids about what policing and America is currently and so. But we had a vast uh vast PR system targeted towards children for police paw patrol UH, which I think is the most insidious one because it's like cops are I mean, dogs are definitely racist, and then now they're cops. There's doubly rate.
Dogs.
What dogs dog.
Met the paw patrol because I've met them all patrol live pre COVID.
I don't know, man, dogs don't see color, and I don't trust that. I'm like, bro, you should.
See all of the Paul Patrol was German shepherds, and you was a black person would feel some sort of way based on the German shepherd's relationship with the black community and the sixties. But I'm not gonna let you blank it all not all dogs. What about reality TV? Where does reality television fit into playing a role? There was a television show that used to come on True TV in the early Arts, this is when reality TV was really wild. The show was called Bait Car, and Bait Car was a show where they would have a nice car and leave the engine running and just leave it in a low income neighborhood and then some random dumb ass would hop an ooh the keys in it here? Yeah, and they would hop in it and then the kill switch would be activated. They would be locked in the car and then the cops will pull up take them to jail for car death.
Okay, these guys are right up on the car.
Now they're in the car drivers getting in stand by.
A big car heading north.
Okay, the kill switch stalls the engine and locks up the windows and doors.
Right are.
How we're going to do.
It's like the police were creating scenarios and tramping instead of going to find like a show like that. And I'll be honest, you're right. It was entertaining Ashton because the funny in it was watching people trying to figure out how to get out.
The car.
And you and like for me, when I would watch a bag car, I would always I know what the outcome is gonna be. I know every single time they going to jail, But I still be like, come on, brother, It's like rooting for the Washington Generals versus the Harlem Globe trotters. You know, they go lose, but they got one fan in me, like.
Yeah, it just never really hit until you know, you know, a year or two later where you're just like you knew, like, well, should the police be doing this anyways? Entertaining? Then years later you go.
Wait, like that's really messed up.
Yeah.
Reality TV is almost like its own, you know, own piece in itself because it's just so expansive. So we really didn't have time to fit that into the piece. But like we did, we did look into a lot of reality TV and it's deeply disturbing to watch, and it's also just I learned a lot more about the show Cops though, which I think everyone watched whether they realized it or not.
It was on everywhere.
It wasn't all bad man. It's like sometimes I got to watch my favorite clips from Yeah, I got to watch some of my favorite clips from Cops. There's one clip on the I remember watching. It was like this like one one lady she went to a cop and she was like this lady, this drug dealer. I was trying to buy drugs and she ain't sell me the drugs. And then the cop was like, what, show me who it is. She went to the lady and she was like, bam, did you not sell her drugs? And she was like first off, officer I'm not a drug dealer, I'm a prostitute. I'm and then we were like what what had So there's classic clips. Don't get it wrong on Cops. Got some you know, good good stuff. But also it's a terrible show. It's a terrible show.
What I didn't know actually before doing this piece was just like the history behind Cops and how it was really used as this like pr vehicle. So it started to like get big after it was like a year or two after the the police beating of Rodney King. Is like the show Cops was invited by They got permission to film in La and it was specifically to rehab the image of the LAPD to make them like give like receive better coverage, and like that became the Cops models.
They know what they're doing. They're rehabbing their image. Like when Justin Bieber did the roast to Justin Bieber and it's like, oh, this is to rehab his image. That's literally ye, that's of of the San Diego Police Department.
Cops did get taken off the air during the George Floyd uprising in this country. At least no new episodes. I've heard rumors that it's starting to seek back into syndication in certain places. But I want after the break, I want to talk to you all about the future of copaganda and where we go from here now that we as a country are actually aware of what the hell is going on. Also, we need to talk about while these rappers end up being cops at some point, ll cooj a cop on n cis ice tea is a cop, the ice cube is a cop and ride along. We need to talk about that transition from f the police to how much you're gonna pay me an episode?
Can I apply to the police.
This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. No, I want to talk about where can we go from here in changing public perceptions through entertainment, Because I'm gonna be honest. I have two cops in my family, Chicago suburbs and a Mississippi State trooper. A lot of copwork is mundane. It's weird. It's talking to a prostitute who supposedly sold me drugs, but she's not even a drug dealer. It's that type of stuff. A television show's job is to tell a story, to wrap you up in the story with drama and conflict, So you need conflict. If you want to show to be good, if you're telling the truth about policing, it's probably gonna be born. You need some I give you a perfect example, Ashton The Shields season five, Anthony Anderson was the villain. He had killed a girl and hid the body and they spend in the whole season trying to find the body of this girl. Vic Mackie finds out that Anthony Anderson's son is in prison in a minimum security jail, so Vic Mackie has his son transferred to maximum security where all of Anthony Anderson's street gang enemies are incarcerated. Knowing what they'll do to a son, and Vic Mackie used the threat of prison rate and traumatizing a nineteen year old to find the body of the dead girl and bring the family justice.
Can we all vote right now for the shield Dramatization podcast just by Broy I would listen to that.
Was you not enthralled by that story? That's how you get leverage on a criminal. I don't even story women, but I know that that's not realistic. But are there any show like because to me, there are aspects of police work that I don't know anything about and that I do to a degree help inform me. I will say that Law and Order SVU, Buy and Large was a great part of my education on just how terrible agender men are. And that's a show. It's not an easy show to watch, even with Iced Tea with his perm. I feel like that's why they have Iced Tea in that show, is to make it more digestible for black people, because you know, it's so serious and heavy, and then Iced t just walks around.
Man, he did it.
Man, we gotta take him down.
WHOA is that a body over there? It's like, yeah, that's a body. That's a body over there. Yeah, no, I want that is like one of the things that we were running into, not running into, but we discovered is and we kind of already knew, is that a lot of what they show is violence. They over sensationalized, sensationalized the violence aspect of police work, and they minimize the actual police the work of the police work, which when you hear these protests, you hear about it all the time. You hear that like the police are overwork, they have too many jobs. There should be mental health counselors going out for certain uh to deal with certain problems instead of sending a police officer. That's why you know, a large percentage of police shootings end up being a disabled, mentally disabled or handicapped people because they just they only know how to not they only know how, but they're dealing with problems that shouldn't you need a hammer, You probably should give to other people. But it is an over sensationalization, over sensationalization of police violence, and I think you definitely got to start.
There, Magdalin. Do these shows have a responsibility to be socially conscious or to just be entertaining.
I mean, I think there's there's a space between there where it's like if you're going to try to push like a realistic genre like policing doesn't exist in a vacuum in our society. It has like very real implications. I mean, I will say, watching SVU, which is a show that I loved and I loved Olivia Benson, it did make me feel like I would be kidnapped at any time anywhere in the city, because that's what happens at the beginning of the episode.
Of like every episode is like this woman has been kidnapped.
They will find they will beat up the suspect until they get her location and they will save her just in time. But yeah, I mean I think you know, one of the things one of the reports that really helped this piece was a Color of Change did this like massive study of police procedurals and they released this like really larger port. It was called like normalizing injustice. And one of the stats they found, which I think Ashton, you can talk more about this being a black writer, you know, in often a very white space, but eighty one percent of the writers on these scripted TV shows are white, so you don't have the demographics reflecting the reality. So I mean, maybe it's less of an outright responsibility, but like if they're going to try to tell story worries, it's like you don't have enough voices in the room to actually tell that story in.
To tell it balanced and tell it properly. Yeah.
So I think that's why we're seeing a lot of these, uh, a lot of these storyline I know.
I know ViacomCBS, who's a proud parent company of the Daily Show and the Beyond the Scenes podcast, Viacom CBS and other networks they've hired, you know, a lot of consulting groups to police their portrayal of people and the criminal justice system in their program. And it's almost like they've like companies have had to hire like it's not enough to just cancel cops and say you're not going to show cops anymore, but now you need someone to come in and audit your whole situation to find where your racial blind spots are.
And it's you know, you know all love the paramount, but it's crazy that you have to do that when you can just hire people of color or people who've experienced those things. You wouldn't need a consulting group if you you know, have if this country's done the right thing and put people and allow people to tell their own stories, I'd.
Say just a especially like if no harm was coming of this, like maybe they don't have a social responsibility, but like we've already we've seen that these shows are like actively shaping our perceptions of police right in a way that doesn't match reality, and that might be deeply harmful for certain people in society who have a lot less power. So yeah, I think there's I think something has to change and has to change just as much behind the camera is in front of it.
So I think one of the things we did learn while researching this was how we probably said it already, but how these shows literally they created the perspective of of kind of black people in policing and why it was okay to be overly brutal to black people in America because they're watching these police shows and the criminals. Though there was this notion of having like the cop shows would have black police chiefs and all that you would still have the criminals be overwhelmingly black or pocs, and it kind of justified in America's mind the brutality and that it needs to happen. And that is like that that is the problem when someone else has control over your image. They have the control over my image. They can do with it what they will, and they put that image in other people's minds, and now I have to deal with the consequences of what they've put in people's minds.
Actually, excuse me, Oh, go ahead, go ahead, No.
I just I had a question for you because you mentioned that you had police officers in your family, and I'm wondering how they're affected by watching cop shows, and like, how if that changed your perception of watching cop shows because I didn't. I mean, I don't have any law enforcement in my family, so it really was like being raised by Olivia Benson.
You know.
Talking to them taught me the mundaneness, the the overwhelming mundaneness of police work, which I think feeds into the when something, oh you got some action, it feeds into that sub something. This is everything that I've been trained to stop because this is the one thing that I should always be careful about it. Like when I saw Bad Boys Too. The thing that's always made me laugh about police work in general on television is after they shoot somebody and then they just going about the rest of the case, like you're supposed to get pulled off and take fourteen days and go see the sycles. Yeah, you're supposed to go do all. Like Bad Boys Too, they blew up the whole freeway.
And there was no paperwork. They're just like, great, there was no paperwork.
The job boys, keep it the case.
You destroyed Q sixteen billion dollars worth the city damage, and god damn it, you do it again, and like they get pat on the back.
They went to Cuba without clearance from the government to see Will Smith's girlfriend and blew up imagine, and so they Bad Boys three should have just been them coming back from suspension for the last fifteen years. I have a black question for you, Madeline. Just sit this one down.
And I was like, please don't say me, Please don't say me.
I thought he was gonna Denzel's Oscar and training day proud moment or no, as a dirty cop.
I mean, obviously, I think it's very nuanced proud moment because it wasn't it like one of the first times a black actor was able to get be awarded that at that hype. But it had to Yeah, but it had to be for being a crooked dirty cop. I mean, they could have gave that to Carl Winslow. He you know, he should have been Why why you gotta start with the dirty cop? Carl Winslow was a great cop and he taught America good values and he didn't get awarded at all. So I don't have.
To say as far as cop begana goes, Carl Winslow really did come home with a good attitude for somebody who was on the Chicago PD. Carl Winslow was Chicago PD.
Yeah, and Erkle was his worst problem. Now, the GDS down the street you worried about the wrong?
Are these changes enough? It's what's happening. Is that enough? Or is there more that needs to happen? And if so, what else can we do? Or do we just wait and see? Do we just blacken up these writers' rooms, blacken up these diversity panels and consulting higher black consultants and see where that gets us in a couple of years or the more drastic things that you all would like to see happen in the in the short term.
I think it's not enough. But I don't think it's enough. I think we are skimming the surface of how we are truthfully telling the nations the relationship we have, the America has with the police. I don't think there's any story out there that's actually actively portraying how current modern day America America's relationship with the police. That not that being said, that doesn't mean to go on the other opposite end and just be like all cops are better to you know, have a show called a cab and then just you know, just show the negativity and only show just the worst, the worseness of cops, because that's not the case either. But we have to find a way to tell the true story of policing in America. I know it's entertainment. I know it's TV. I know it's entertainment, but for the past like thirty years, it was maybe longer than that, it has not told the real story and it's had a negative consequent consequence on many Americans.
Madeline, what stories surrounding policing in our criminal justice system would you like to see told?
I mean, I agree with Ashton, I think that we haven't really seen like a real portrayal, so I do think showing that. I also think they're I mean, there just needs to be more space for other stories that doesn't like that don't only tie black people to policing as well, right, Like we can't only have stories of tragedy, you know, I think like showing the full spectrum of humanity, which is often not shown on police procedurals, Like you just need space for like other shows as well. But again, a lot of that change happens, like you know, in the writer's room. I mean, I guess, I mean, I'm kind of curious now, like because you're both actors, Like would you want to be would you be in a police procedural, like would you take a role as.
A cop or if I want to No, No, I'm just because of just like how like I guess that's like if it was changed. I mean, I just I don't. I don't. I think it has to change a lot, but I don't know exactly how.
I had a sitcom that was originally in development here at Comedy Central where I played a probation officer, and for me, I wanted to show the redemption side of the criminal justice system because I feel like that's something that we don't see enough of most shows that involve the criminal the legal system. It's either the cop, it's the case, or it's jail, but there's never anything on the other side or that. I would say the only show in the last couple of years to even come close to that is The Last Og on TBS, and that's really more of the first two seasons where we see Tracy Morgan's character going to a halfway house, and that's really not about the criminal justice system as much as that show is more about one man's journey back from all of that. It's not really peeling back the layers of probation and the bullshit and everything you go through and keep this job, but you got a job, but the job is out of your travel district, and the judge won't give you clearance to go to the next county to work. So now you're in violation because your two payments behind on your restitution. Like they don't really get into that on the last OG. But that's definitely you know, that's definitely been a show that I've enjoyed seeing kind of explore just a different part of that world.
They do that in Atlanta. There's like scenes him in Atlanta. In the TV show Atlanta Earned or childis Gambino's character. He gets arrested, and you keep throughout the season you see him still having to go to probation office. He calls out, oh wow, I have Oh if I don't pay, I'm going to jail, and people, I don't think a lot of Americans recognize that when you get arrested, I mean specifically, especially for something as inconsequential as marijuana. There's millions of Americans dealing with have been put in a system where they their their life is now a jinga a jingo table, and one false move can have that entire thing come crumbling. Down, and that's the situation you're putting. You're putting a situation where your future is literally at jeopardy, and that pressure you feel it's not just dealing with police brutality. The brutality continues after you get like after you come out of jail and trying to get a job, trying to vote, trying to change laws. There's so many things that you still have to deal with and the pressure is constantly on you.
So yeah, I want to see more stories like Ashton's story, because, like you were saying, it's very like what you're saying is like I've you grew up around a lot of people who had very similar experiences like you, but yet that's not really reflected, like the truth of that is not reflected in on screen.
So those are the stories that absolutely need telling.
An innocent kid, Ashton's an innocent kid minding his business, but he knows the guy that sold the drugs that ode the girl, and Detective Vic Mackie pools he takes Ashton and chokes.
The mine prostitute.
Yeah, I'm not a drug dealer right now, but if I take this crack cocaine and put it in your pocket, that's ten years. Where's t Baker? Tell me where tea Bake is?
I ain't telling you ship Copper.
That's all the time we have for today. I'm pretty sure we fixed Copper game the special thanks to you, Madeline, and special thanks to you Ashton for going beyond the scenes with me today. Hopefully we've taken you beyond the scenes. Take care, everybody. I'm gonna go rewatch the Shield now. I'm sorry. It's a good show.
I think I am too, honestly, Yeah, nobody go watch the Shield.
I think that's he went on a date and Forest. Look, I know the music is playing. I know it's supposed to shut up now, I don't care. Forest Whittaker was internal affairs and was investigating Vic Mackie. Vic Mackie went on a date with his ex wife just to break him down, whole world. That's not even spoiling it.
That's a dirty cop, dirty mackinn, and dirty Coppin.
Wet's see y'all next week. Listen to The Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcasts, the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you get your podcasts. I wanna go even further beyond the scenes. Check out the video version of beyond the scenes on the Daily Show's YouTube page.