Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes. This is the Daily Show podcast that goes a little deeper into segments and topics that add originally on the show. Like think of it like this, If The Daily Show was the main single that made you buy the album, right, made you listen to the album, then Beyond the Scenes that's that remixed track you get around, like track of Leven, kind of like the rock version of All About the Benjamin's. You know, you start hearing things in a new way. That's what this podcast is. Today. We're talking about a topic that's been in the news a lot, especially in the last year, athletes and their mental health. Here's a few conversations that have come up on the show with Jeremy Lynn, Ali Risman, and Carmelo Anthony Rode the clips. That's why I'm passionately about mental health. I struggled so much with pregame anxiety. I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep, you know. And this was when I was just trying to make it and just trying to you know, uh, survive, and then I played well and then when any happens, I'm literally the most popular person on the planet, and I'm struggling with the same anxiety. I guess and I'm realizing like man mental health and the anxiety that I struggled with was something that came before I had the success, after I had the success, and everything in between. If I don't learn how to properly address it, the biggest thing in my healing is recognizing I need to have self compassion, to be nice to myself, and coming from the sport of gymnastics, where it's all about trying to be perfect, that's hard for me to do and to be kind to myself and um, you know, even when I do interviews, I watched them back and I'm hard on myself if I feel like I didn't say the right thing, because I know that so many survivors don't have the platform that I have, and I take that very seriously. So the biggest thing for me has been being nice to myself and treating myself the way that I would treat a loved one or someone that I care about. But it's definitely something that I work on and it's a struggle. Sometimes. I'm in a competitive sport anyway as it is, so I don't want to be competitive in every aspect of my life. I want to come home. I want to relax. I want to turn the TV on and listen to music, drinks some wine, and I don't want to be competitive all day, every day. And that's what it does to you, man, it just makes you competitive when you feel like you're back is against the wall and people always doubt on you and you know you're not gonna do this. Oh he's back, like you said, he's back. Oh he's not back and he needs to go. He need to come back or what is he doing? It's like where's wal though? And that's not something I don't want to live my life like that. So today to talk a little bit further, to go beyond on this topic, I'm joined by two experts in the field. My first guest, she's a Fulbright scholar and an exercise psychology professor at Temple University. Her work focuses on racial and gender equity in sports. Dr Leisure Carter. Dr Carter, welcome to Beyond the Scenes. Thank you for having me and our second guests joining us is an Olympian, a US track and field runner. I J. Wilson, Welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me. Let's start with this UM and This is for both of you all, you know, with regards to everything that's been happening in the past year with athletes and their mental health, and so I'm taking breaks and welcoing away from their sports more and more athletes to be an open about their mental health. What conversations are athletes having and what do you think is brought us to this point thus far? Well, I can talk about the conversations uh, my friends, teammates and just appears are having on the circuit running. Um, you know, at the forefront is how we're being viewed in the media, how we're interacting on social media, and also just like the financial undertone sometimes with sport, you know, we love what we do, but the reality too is that it's how we are on our living. So I think you know right now, um, with everything that's been going on in the past year, demic, you know, we're all just sharing our experiences and finding that we have a lot of the same commonalities even if we're not in the same sport. So then Dr Carter, I throw this the same question to you in your professional circles. How long had this conversation been bubbling before it became part of the national because I always feel like when something's part of the national dialogue, it was already happening behind closed doors, within those internal circles long before that. I agree that, you know, conversations around athlete well being and mental health have been being had, you know, long before it became this mainstream, larger conversation in our national and international discourse. I think one aspect of why UM we see it so much now at the forefront is because of you know, quite frankly, the pandemic as well as the racial reckoning um that we as a nation have gone through. And so I think that there's a very real experience that athletes are sharing about how they have experienced both the Black Lives Matter movement just that UM very real visibility in seeing the intersectionality of particularly our black athletes and our athletes of color UM and then also the ways in which the pandemic has impacted athletes, their performance and their overall well being. And so I think both of these UM situations have created a perfect storm, for lack of a better phrase, um of individuals within the sporting community to say, you know what, you know, we are more than athletes were human and we're just as much impacted by what's happening in our society than anyone else as when people assume that sports is just this purely physical thing, right, Like we just assumed the athletes job. Let's just go with track. Okay, you must run track, and then you must eat right, and then you must get your proper rest. But there's so much more of a major mental component. Can you speak to some of the specific challenges athletes face when we talk about their mental health. Yeah, I always joke when people ask how is it to be a professional athlete? And I'm like, okay, three hours of the day, three to four hours, Um, I work out and then the rest of the day it's just me. It's just a j I'm thinking about how training went. I'm thinking about, you know, my personal life, family, other obligations that I have to do. So it's just like all encompassing. And while most people, you know, they have a nine to five, they can clock into work and when they leave, you know, they leave the job at the office. Some people, you know, work beyond the hours. But you know, because our job is our body, it's it's all encompassing, and so everything you do is a constant reminder of when you have to be back on that track, when you have to perform, and the demands that come with that. Then there's also the back end of competition, um, of dealing with the highs and the lows that come with with it. UM. I'll definitely say, like since Tokyo, I've had too many a handful of conversations with friends on just how difficult it is sometimes to process, like, um, the idea that I've been working at something so for so long and it hasn't happened, and not feeling like I've just wasted my time, or just finding value in in your life because this is what you've been doing for you know, the past nine ten years. Where does the media and public criticism fall in that spectrum of things to overcome as well? Because you know, I am a Twitter athlete, which means my job to get on Twitter and judge you for being good or bad is something that I've never ever attempted, and we all know that that's what Twitter is all about. Does that add anything? Or does that not? Or does or is that not? Bother the most athletes performing at your level, I think a lot of athletes want to lean into you know, I don't care about that stuff where you know, I tune out the noise. But the reality is because we're also engrossed into social media and a lot of sponsorships now or you have to have a strong presence, like you see those things and often you see feedback about your performance, you see feedback about your value as an athlete before you've kind of had time to process yourself. Um, there's been plenty events that I've gone to and you know, I'm thinking ahead, like, Okay, I've run this race. What questions are gonna are they gonna ask me? How am I going to navigate this if it goes bad? Like how am I going to handle? You know, just facing the noise and sometimes it's just like, um, it can be overwhelming, and I think the only solution is kind of just define where you can fit in between and just stay in tune with with yourself so you know when you need to kind of back off and want to, you know, respond how you need to. I didn't realize that at the time what a bad friend I was being to someone in Los Angeles. This was years ago. I didn't know, like like else, somebody's training, you know, I'm training for the limping whatever, and we were all at some karaoke or something. I I'm going to get a drink. I want to drink. She goes, well, I'll just have half a cranberry juice and we must have cloud her for an hour for Oh, you're getting crazy about a little cranberry Just we're just I just did not understand that literally, something as simple as one drink could take three one thousand gajillions of a second off of the time or leave you sluggish, or like the way in which you have to regiment your body. How much does that dr Carter, how much does that spill over into you know, eating disorders. Or let's talk also about the difference between mental health and mental illness as well. Like Cher experience UM that comes before that before she walks onto the track, and that includes mental preparation, nutritional health, physical health, mental and spiritual health. Right, And so when we think about mental health as well as mental illness, there's two sides of the spectrum here, right, So when we think of mental illness, we are really talking about individuals who are experiencing UM some form of issue that is in some way, shape or form is impairing their life. Right, um and because of that impairment, based on you know, the severity of it um, then that person could be diagnosed with a clinical mental disorder, in which they could you know, they might be getting treatment for mental illnesses. When we're really talking about disorders mental health is really we're talking about someone who, you know, more days than not, feels stable, but once engage in things that that further improved their overall well being. How do we get through to people who refuse or just don't always possess the bandwidth to understand the nuance of everything that you've just said, Like, how do we get people to understand that? Like if you are dealing with an impairment, as you say, how do we convey that to our family? Because you know, Michael Jay had he just did a stand up specially he says something that was so onportant to me about mental health and just how a lot of black families will just throw something away. Ain't nothing wrong with that? Boy? Oh boy, you just need you just need to start eating again. Like it's such an afterthought and are if we're just gonna talk but I'm not talking about people to color, I'm talking about black folk. It's such an afterthought, how how do we how are we able? What are things that we can do even if we're not dealing with an issue ourselves, to slowly bring more people that have been ignorant to this into the light. Yeah. I think two things. First, one is education and educating ourselves and the public radically on what is mental illness? What is mental health? Right? But with that education to your second question, particularly within the Black community, we really need advocates and action based off of being educated and raising your awareness of what mental health is and also what therapy is and um all the things. We really need people within our own community to just speak out and be allies for individuals who are experiencing some form of mental illness or struggle with their mental health, and to talk about why it's important to one, for families and friends to be supportive of this individual right or of people right as well as the ways in which they can do so. So, just like with any other form of advocacy or ally ship, we need people within our own community to show up and get into the fight around being supportive of people who have various different mental health struggles as well as might be struggling within mental illness we just need to stand up and be allies. How do athletes then, because we know the hate is coming. You know that journalists are ignorant and they're going to ask obvious questions. You lost, how do you feel right now? Do you feel? What do you think? How do you think? I feel dummy? And you're gonna deal with social media as well and the criticism that comes from that. But what are some tools dot that that athletes can use? Because I feel like it's it's two sides to a coin now, because now social media is also the gift that helps to make you marketable. Being accessible to some degree is profitable. Also, everybody talks about brand building, What part of building your brand is presenting yourself to people, which means that you have to have some level of social exposure for the sake of growing this career that you've dedicated your entire being too up until this point. So what are some things that athletes can do to try and kind of you know, navigate around that a little. Well. First, I'm a huge advocate for having a great therapist um at, a mental health clinician who could really help you process your experiences both within that at athletic realm and outside. I think having someone who is trained that for you to be able to speak to about what you're experiencing. How perhaps things like social media maybe a trigger for you emotionally or psychologically UM as well as UM. Something that a shared is that it might inadvertently create a space where you're processing your experiences and thinking about your experiences in a way that's not best for you. I also think that boundaries are very important. I think boundaries and self care UM, and I think for any person as well as athletes, they should begin to think about, you know, how often do they want to engage in social media UM in order to give them what I like to call some off time from their sport. So on time is when you're thinking about your sport. You're practicing your sport, you're doing everything that relates to your sport in your sport profession. And off time is you're not thinking about your sport at all. You're not thinking about anything that relates to your performance. You're doing something completely different. You're playing video games or something like that. And I think every athlete needs to give themselves off time every day in order to just allow that swelling to go down and to allow them that free space to be able to exist outside of that athletic identity and outside of you know what they hope for their performance. So to that to that self care, you know, than I j Naomi Osaka decides just one day, I blow did warn nobody, Like, you know what, I don't feel like talking to the media today. I think I'm gonna just go back to the hotel Hollow. Can you talk a little bit as an athlete about the nature of the post race interview? Is it as bad in as heinous as it seems, because I'll be honest, just watching at home, it's the press conference is very unncessary. Y'all would just tweet which feel and just like just just tweet I lost, congrats to the winner. I dan hollow. Yeah. I think as both in nath and also just UM as a spectator. A lot of the times, UM, I do enjoy you know, post race or post competition interviews where you get to see more character or you know, um personality of people here being interviewed. UM personally not my favorite thing. I'm definitely UM. I feel like because the pressure that comes with staying the right thing, people running with it, and it just just convoluting, just like my time and sport. I started like pretty young, right after high school at eighteen, so right in those kind of young gears having that type of pressure and that type of just like feedback, um as simple as like oh, like why is she looking at the camera like that? Like she looks just interested, just weird random opinions, Um, I just realized affected me. So for me, it's just like you guys get the pretty much the cookie cutter answer every time. I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you what you want to hear, but it's not gonna be in depth. And I think that's my way of kind of like Dr Leaser said, of having boundaries of Um, if I'd let you into much, you might lose a bit of sense of who you're talking to and what we're doing here. So I just try to keep a balance of you know, sharing enough so that people who care about the sport and fans have an inside view of how things went, but also just respecting and protecting my space and my peace of mind. And you know, after a race, I'm already tired. I'll show ship and now would be like mentally drained and agitated. Yeah, y'all need to leave me alone. I got to go enjoy my half a glass of cranberry juice right yes, after the break. Um, I want to explore a little bit more into how this topic expands out into the general public ignorance around mental health and how race and gender factor into this, because I also kind of feel like Osaka and Simone Biles they're taking a break was seen as something totally different from even the men that were still dealing with ignorance to mental health, but not nearly as much of an issue when it came to race and gender. This is beyond the scenes. Will be right back, Dr Carter. A lot of your work focuses on the intersection of race and gender and sports, and to me, it seems like women of color are taking charge and leading by example by advocating for their mental health. Why do you think that is? Why do you think is the women? Why is it the black women's that's always got to take the first step in the beachhead of fighting things like this? Well, first and first and fourth most shut out the black women? Um? Second, Um, you know, I mean just from an intersectional perspective, you know, when we can liberate black women and indigenous women. We liberate everyone, right. And so just the demonstration of black women, UM, Simone Biles, Naomi Osaka having boundaries and just being firm with their boundaries, the ways in which that has opened the floodgates for everyone is magical. And it's just another demonstration of when we can support um individuals who are dual triple minorities right and advocating for what they need, it really helps everybody. So I just want to state that, but I think that for you know, I can't speak for Simone Biles or for Naomi Osaka, but I think that they didn't go into their personal advocacy trying to be models for everyone else or trying to change the culture for everyone else. It was a matter of what do I need right now for me? How am I impacted? And from a long term perspective, how is what's happening to me right now, UM going to impact me a month, two years or five years, right? And so it really seems like there's a deep level of awareness from both women that this isn't just about the here and now, This isn't just about a k the Olympics right now, or a tennis tournament right now it's about ten years from now. Do I want to be someone that is still grappling with the ways in which intersectional systems of discrimination have been violent and traumatic towards me? Right, And so it's like, look, I need to actually address this now because I want to be strong, healthy, president, and powerful ten years from now. And because it's women of color, everyone is surprised because we do not believe support or amplify women of color caring for themselves. If anything, their body, their mind, their labor is supposed to be for others. So the fact they said no, I'm I really do need to take a step back for me, It's like, whoa, that's not what society has written for you, right, um. And so that's why it comes as such a surprise and has been so big in the media. I think one thing I was talking to my friend about right before I came on, just the shift that it's it seemed like it's been for athletes changing from spokesperson to like influence her. And you think of a spokesperson, they have to have this like squeaky clean image and they have to present a certain way versus you know, now, companies want someone who can influence people who can sell a product without actually selling a product. So I think that shift is like allowed for people to you know, tell more of their story because it's like, you don't want to just hear about what I'm selling, you want to hear about me. And part of my stories, like my mental health, is about my daily struggles. And it's kind of I feel like changed how people share, how athletes share, and how much they share to the public. So it's made athletes a little more open about their true selves, which could help foster some level of understanding from the public for sure. And you know, you're not gonna like get in toble for it. I think in today's climate, you're gonna lose your Gatorade money. Yeah, not going to stay like you're not depressed, Like they're not going to come at you that way. Um, So it's a little bit more freedom, you know, from that from that side to to tell more and share more and hopefully give people a better idea of what it's like. Yeah, I mean, the irony of it is that a lot of the talk around Naomi Osaka as of late in the last year has been less about tennis and more about what she was a catalyst for and that in and of itself is a good thing. And I'm willing to bet money she didn't lose no endorsement money from not going to no press conference. Even when you look at like the w n b A, which is Black women and the stands that they've taken on a lot of race and equity issues as well, Like when that was first starting to happen a couple of years ago, They're like, wait a minute, all these women wearing the same T shirt? Who what huh? Can they do that? Like, yeah, we can do it, and we're gonna do it. M I think it's also you know, in sport, when you kind of reach like the top one in your event, it's comes with like, you know, achievement that you sometimes feel like, Okay, um, you know, financially set like um, performing at my best. I'm at the top, and I'm still not impervious to all of these things that are happening around and I'm still being you know, looked at differently because of my skin cause I'm still being I'm still tried to be silenced. And it's like no matter how high I climb, no matter how high achieve like that will never protect me. So I've read a quote like during the pandemic, You're silence will not protect you, And I think that speaks also to like why they're using their voices. Ten twenty years from now, Um, I won't nearly have this much power or people won't really care as much about what I have to say. So of course I'm gonna say it now because this is my life and this is something that I have to advocate for. And I know for me personally, it's like, um, I'm in a position where I have a voice, and I know so many people out there are just like me. I'm super into, you know, being connected into my community back home, so seeing so many people that me and the only difference is that they don't have the platform, um, Like, it's it's empowering to make sure my voice is heard and our experiences are are understood and heard. When would you say or is there a time when you can because it's I don't know, it's kind of like racism. It's like, this is gonna be a weird question. It's gonna feel like tell me the first time you feel racist. You can't always tell, But when did you first realize as a black woman, What the expectations were of you within your sport? Was there a coach and a coach? Can I be short to too short? No? Shut up? Do what I said? Like? Was there? Ever? When did you first realize that there were certain expectations that society places on athletes, on black women, um, in sports? Well, I'd say, like the first instance that I had was, which happens a lot in track and field, was just basically like the event that I chose. So you think you know black athletes, you think hundred two hundred springing. So when I first started, I did the four by one hundred, and I did the four hundred, and you know it took a coach, my first coach, Rob Joinner and um Keith Davis, you know, pushing me to say, hey, like go run a few laps, and I ran a bunch. So I shifted to the distance events. But going into events and different races, I'd always hear people on the sidelines of like, oh, does she know what event this is? That you know how many laps she has to do? Of just the expectation is as a black women, and I'm not expected to you know, do distance. I'm not expected to do middle distance. And it's funny because when you go to the higher level internationally, the five K, ten K, fifteen hundred, those are the people that are dominating people from the Kenya, Ethiopia after people who look just like me exactly. So it's just funny that in America, you know, the viewpoint is different. And so I've had races where I'm running it's like, oh, she's about to get tired. This isn't even her race. And you know, when I hear things like that, it's like, Okay, now I'll have to show you that this is not how it's going to go. But even in a way, isn't that in and of itself also racist in the sense that I have to win in order for them to even accept that I'm decent. Yeah, and that's something that I've had length or something why over over the years of you know, running For me, I've always just wanted to be pure. I love it, I love what I do, and you know, when I'm out there, I just want to compete. And I remember being in high school senior year, I'm doing the mile and I looked to my left and I looked at my right, and I'm the only black girl on the line, and um, I said to myself, like, Okay, I have to do well. I have to do well because you know, I have to represent for us. And over the years, I've just realized that, like that's a big burden to kind of carry, and it kind of taints the I feel like, the innocence of the sport. So it's it's become less of Oh, I need to prove someone wrong, I need to prove that I belong here. And it's like I just need to do what I love and that other stuff will fall in place and you know, it'll speak for itself. Dr Carter, Why are women just expected to say yes to everything? Like because if you would have had she could have easily had a different coach. I could have had a different coach and she could go, hey, coach, I want to run distance, and he could go, nah, you're a sprinter, and I need my black women sprinting, and then she's forced to choose between that and I would imagine there are a lot of people, there are a lot of women that are in situations where they're expected to just say yes without even challenging something and creating waves in the water. Why do you think that is. I think that's there's a few reasons to that. I do want to touch on UM what shared and what you shared Roy about just the idea of UM black women being UH being more effective UM in the shorter distances in the hundred, the two hundred, the jumps, and less in the longer distances within the us UM. I think what the first thing that comes up to me is just microaggressions, micro macro aggressions, right, and so these are very unintentional, you know, verbal are physical UM or even policy related and environmental slights that indicate that someone doesn't belong or that someone is less than within the context that they're experiencing these microaggressions. And one of the consequences of that is feeling like, you know, others, I don't belong here, I'm not supposed to be here, and those that do are in here UM or part of the eight hundred environment or the six UM are a certain type of prototype. And that prototype is thin white women, right, and I'm not that prototype. So I should look at the I should actually direct my efforts in my interests to where I would be more prototypic being the shorter distances. So that's the first thing that comes up for me with that, and so why are women, particularly women of color um X expected to say yes? And I'm going to talk about this in the context of black women because I think that it's really important for us to, you know, recognize the long term impact of slavery UM on our social psyche and on the ways in which the technology of racism exists UM today, as well as sexism exists. And when we look at the ways in which black women were situated and positioned during slavery and post slavery, it was as that caregiver, you know, that mammy mentality that this black woman should be caring for everyone and be happy that she's caring for her family, the families of white slave owners and their children, and that she's a happy slave. She's a happy mammy. And when we see the more contemporary UM narratives around that, it's the same, right, it's this black woman should be happy that she's here, she should be happy I'm asking her to do for me UM And by her not being happy or content inside of this, it's just not prototypic. It's like, why would you This is what black women are designed to be. They're designed to be the caretakers, the laborers, and those who support UM, the white majority and those who are more adjacent to the white majority. UM. So there is that a friction that's happening. UM when that happens when the black woman or one of colors says, no, she's actually agitating this UM, these inter sectional stereotypes around what women of color is supposed to do and supposed to be in for who. And then I think the added like double whammy on top of that, it is just being an athlete, whether you're a male or female. We look at athletes and we're like, I wish I was in that position. Whatever you're going through, you should just be lucky that you're there. Oh, they're paying you what? Oh, you should just be grateful that you know, this is the position that you're in. And while that's very much true, it's it's still very nuanced and like the challenges and struggles that come with it, UM, the affect that experience and the value of it, and I think sometimes that's lost just you know, from people on the outside looking ina. I completely agree, like this element of classicism that resides within the sports system is very real, right, and so it's like your body belongs to someone else. It belongs to entertainment, It belongs to the spectator. And when you begin to say it doesn't, um, then that again agitates what is the larger discourse around athletes and their responsibilities to their sport and entertainment in general. Yeah, we ain't even gotten to shut up and dribble yet. That's a whole another episode. What you've got opinions to what you're trying to get yourself, what you're trying to care for the world? Oh please? So what about what about the male athletes? Dot dr Carter? They're starting to be a little bit more vocal as well, Like say you had Calvin Ridley from the Atlanta Falcons who took a little break to step away. Um. A man Carry Price in the NHL has been open about his issues with substance abuse. Is there a different approach between genders when it comes to addressing this issue publicly? Like? Is it? Do you see the issue handled a little differently or perceived differently when it's a male athlete versus a woman? I think in general, when male athletes talk about their mental health needs and they advocate for their mental health, it's it's um it's more well received um than when we compare it to UM, particularly like Naomir Soakas and Simone Biles UM. But I think that there's a really um interesting nuance there because you know, part of the mental health conversation and some myths around mental health UM and mental wellness is that if you are focused on your mental health, then somehow you're not strong, you're not resilient. Right. And then when we put that into the larger UM kind of concepts around how masculinity is constructed and how men are socialized to particularly six gender men are social socialized to appear and perform their manhood right. Um. I think that leaning into for mantling into his mental health needs or to share a mental illness and uh, the step that he's taking to care for himself, then people begin to say, is he less than a man? Is this how manhood is supposed to be performed? Right? And that he's less strong and less resilience as a man exactly for for doing the things that he needs right, And so we really need to one a lot humanized athletes and humanize people in general, right and really begin to also understand how controlling the stereotypes around masculinity are how much they box are our young boys are young men into very specific ways of being instead of allowing that box not to exist and to experience their manhood, UM and masculinity in the way that they see fit, in the way in which it's you know, constructed for them. After the break, then I want to talk with you about what people like me could do better. You know, what does the public get wrong? And if there's anything on the legislative side or the rulemaking side, I J I would love to kind of you know, as they say, pick your brain about that. We'll do that on the other side of the break. This is beyond the scenes. Dr Carter. What is it that you think the public gets wrong about mental health? Well, I would say the first is that um, someone speaking about or doing things that will support their mental health and personal resilience in some way. UM or if someone is talking about or is diagnosed with a mental illness somehow that this is you know, there are other in some way right, rather than allowing that to be part of this person's fully multidimensional experience. Right. We all have things that we struggle with and experience, and we and to remove or to put someone in a particular box doesn't help them at all. So I think some of the things that the public gets wrong, it's just these general miss around what mental health is, what mental illnesses, what it means to actually engage in strategies that are helpful to your mental health and mental well being UM, and that doing so does not make you less lesser than or less than a person. It doesn't make you weak, it doesn't make you soft. It really is the reverse. It. It's for someone to UM be very aware of what they need emotionally psychologically. To me, UM speaks to a deep level of strength, resilience, right, and fortitude. I also think that the public, I don't know if it's getting it wrong or how they could get it right, is just to educate themselves on what mental health is, what mental illnesses. How can we as spectators and lovers or sport be supportive of our athletes rather than be critical of them when they begin to share openly what they need in the ways in which they've been impacted not only by their support but society and general UM. So yeah, I would say, you know, dispelling these myths as well as really seeing yourself as advocates for education about mental health in order to be more supportive. What are the choices that we can make as people to focus more on the survivorship of the athletes and not necessarily the harm that has been done to them by the world around it. Yeah, I think it all comes back to empathy and not being able to you know, maybe actually experience or know what someone like someone's life is like, but to be compassionate about how they need to process how they need to experience it. And I think there's a big separation sometimes with just like the average person and the professional athlete. But outside of being you know, exceptional at what they do, we're human where everyday people we have our struggles just like you know the average person. And I think, you know, if that's kind of tapped into more and instead of you know, placing people on pedestals and thinking that you know, they're impervious to everything else that's going on in the world, um may be helpful and just helping people realize that and then just being more compassionate about how they interact with them. It's one thing for the public to understand, but you know, Dr Carter, how can we also create these systems that are in place so that they aren't stressful. If we go back to a j in middle school track and the coach who wanted to pressure her to do one thing based on the racial the general racial makeup in that particular discipline of track and field, how much does inclusivity and accessibility play a role in all of this? I mean huge? But the practice of like, how do how do we actually articulate these ideas of inclusion and accessibility from the highest echelonta sport to you know, youth sport, right, Like that's what I mean? Yeah, yeah, like what does that actually look like? I think first is is something my dad used to always say to me. Never settle. We can't settle for what diversity is. We can't settle for Okay, you know we've we've had some coaches do some training um around inclusion, so we feel like we could check that box. We really have to set a high aspirational standard of what we really hope a great sporting environment looks like, which includes our coaches understanding, um, how to be responsive when it comes to mental health needs as well as other needs, you know, being responsive and knowing you know about you know, issues around race and sexism. Um UH as well, and so what are we doing with our coaches in order to help them first raise their awareness as well as then build the skill set in order to create more inclusive belonging environments amongst their team. And then what are we doing with athletic departments UM and athletic organizations to understand their unique workplace and culture environments and how they can be everyday practitioners of equity and inclusion and what that looks like the conversations that need to be had UM in that in that particular ROM a professor from Dressco University UM Kenneth Hardy, always talks about will and skill that when it comes to inclusion, we have to consider both. That you can have somebody that has the skills to articulate these things into their everyday culture and environment, but they don't have the will. They don't they're not motivated to. But conversely, you can have people who have that will and that the skill. And so I think that we need to within sport build both will and skill amongst every dimension, from that peewee coach, um that youth coach, to you know, college sport, to professional sport, to to family and friends being supportive. And I think more importantly also is fans. You know, how are we educating fans? What are we doing with our fanship? Um, in order for them to understand that part of rate in an inclusive environment needs them, It needs them to show up and have that will for the athletes they love. You know, they want to see their athletes play, But don't you want them to be healthy? Don't you want them to feel good about what they do? You know? Um, yeah, I wish I had to ask you this question earlier. But when we talk about young black women athletes that are coming up, like there were there were a group of young women that you know, they were swimmers and the whatever, the regulating body wouldn't allow them to wear the swim cap that fits specific black hair because I guess it made them more aerodynamic in the water or something stupid. What can parents do and what or what did your parents do to make sure that no matter what's happening outside the house with these types of inequities that what could parents do or what did your parents do to help keep that from permeating into you. My parents really just did a great job of protecting me and also just pouring back into me. Um, there are a lot of girls that like I came up with that you know, didn't take the same path and weren't able to make it to the next level. And I always credit my success to my support. Um My parents knew what was coming. They weren't me, and they equipped me with the tools that I needed to prepare and embrace. Of course, when you transition to like a new lifestyle which is like professional and they didn't know much about they talk to other people, you know, they looked for other resources and people who have been through similar experiences to kind of quit me as best that I can. And I feel like as as parents, especially to you know, younger kids coming up in support, you know, the most that you can do is to to stay in tune, stay in touch, check in with your kids, see you know what things that they noticed, because you know, even though you're younger, you pick up on things you you feel, you know the world around you, and just making sure that you're doing everything you can to to support them and finding resources and just you know, not leaving any stone in turn. Hey, Roy, I just gotta say something about that comment that you made about the swimming the swimming cap for the governing body of swimming to say that this swimming cap you know does not fit you know, standard swim cap regulations really speaks to the lack of diversity in the governing body and the senior leadership UM within swimming and within this governing body. Without that diversity, and then without those difficult conversations about how the lack of diversity doesn't exist in senior leadership all the way through um our our swimmers and and just you support the pipeline into swimming, then we have people not understanding what people need, right and in this context black women swimmers. So because there's not those difficult conversations around um diversity and inclusion within the swimming culture just in equipment, right, um, the rules, just the rules, right, then we have athletes who aren't seen for who they are and athletes who don't get what they need. And then a result of that is that now they have to slowly start, you know, moving over to that prototype. So do I need to straighten my hair? Do I need to you know, what do I need to put in my hair in order for it to fit into the regulated cap? Right now? That's hair exactly, and that's how we get into discrimination, right, Like, that's how that operates. Okay, So then you want me right into the question I was about to ask, and I'll start with you first. Then instead, what are some of the systems and policies that leagues and governing bodies could start putting in place to protect athletes? It seems like, if what you're saying is real, it seems like the first issue is staffing. It seems like before we decide on what the rules all, we need to decide who's going to be making the rules period, full stop, Like it could end right there. Honestly, there has to be a very transparent and what I like to call radically honest converse station and exploration of Yeah, who's at the top, who's in the middle, and who's at the bottom. Who has left out of the current policies and decisions that are made? Right Like, if we're going to be UM advocates for equity and advocates for inclusion, we need to constantly ask ourselves and make people who are making decisions need to ask themselves who are we leaving out in this policy? Does this policy marginalize anyone? And I think also we get stuck in well, this is what we've been doing forever, So this is what we're going to continue to do, versus saying, you know what, let's just be different. You know, Yeah, this policy was created in early nineteen hundreds or something like that, whatever, But it's time to reevaluate our policies and our procedures and how can we bring athletes into that decision making process, bring other individuals into this conversation, to make our policy and procedures much more intersectional, much more inclusive, and what they might have been historically when they were first established and anything to that. Like, I know that there's I know, I know that if we're gonna ask what's wrong with you know, a lot of these sports, especially on the women's side, I know we could go down the list. We could talk about pay parity and prioritized in the safety of women, and even with even with the way contracts are built, Like, do you think there's a way through even with the way that athletic contracts are drawn up with regards to the expectations of how much you should be training versus resting and even offering mental health as part of the guess as part of the contract. I definitely think that's that that should be a part of the future. And I know on track and field conversations about changing or giving companies language of you know, how to better interact with their athletes, like specifically around maternity. Maternity leave UM and our sport has been huge right now, UM and I think that's where it starts. You you can't expect a problem to change if the rules are still the same UM. And I'll also say that like having people you know in power who have been a part of UM sport, who's been in athletics. They always say that those who are closest to the problem are also closest to the solution, like having their voices heard and having their power and voices me and something in those conversations, UM, it's super important even is it transitions to the conversation we were having about UM post race interviews you know media. I think that's a huge missing element of having people in the room that look like the people who are being interviewed, who look like the people who are in the sport. UM. This past summer, like one of my best friends started her own show called Track Girls suwherre and she has athletes on. She asked some questions but it's it's it's a different energy, UM, and it's it's different having someone who understands where you've been, what you've gone through, UM to also ask insightful questions to kind of get more out of the athlete and also just understand stand experience better. UM. So definitely, representation from every end on the spectrum is super important. Well, this has been a wonderful conversation and I cannot thank you ladies enough for adding your level of wise expertise to the world of professional athletics. I will now go and eat two cheeseburgers. Thank you Dr Carter and A. J. Wilson for taking us beyond the scenes. Listen to the Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple podcast, the iHeart Radio app, or wherever you're listening. I don't care where you get this podcast. I just care if you listen to it. Why was that so rude? Just then? I'm sorry.