Al Zone Media.

Al Zone Media.

Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I am, as usual your host ed Zichrono. Today I'm joined again for the last episode of our DOJV Google Ads series Ariel Garcia of Check My Ads and of course Jason Kent of DCN. Thank you so much for coming. What's happened in this week's This Saga?

Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I am, as usual your host ed Zichrono. Today I'm joined again for the last episode of our DOJV Google Ads series Ariel Garcia of Check My Ads and of course Jason Kent of DCN. Thank you so much for coming. What's happened in this week's This Saga?

So this week we had the opportunity to listen to Google's defense. They I haven't done the tally yet, I intend to, but the vast majority of witnesses they called were people that either have been paid or still are paid by Google.

So this week we had the opportunity to listen to Google's defense. They I haven't done the tally yet, I intend to, but the vast majority of witnesses they called were people that either have been paid or still are paid by Google.

So that includes people like.

So that includes people like.

Current employees, small businesses that get big grants from Google, and their expert witnesses. The most notable one is doctor Mark Israel, who is at a consultancy called Compass Lexicon.

Current employees, small businesses that get big grants from Google, and their expert witnesses. The most notable one is doctor Mark Israel, who is at a consultancy called Compass Lexicon.

He's there, he was their lead economists.

He's there, he was their lead economists.

So, if you remember, we've talked about how Google is trying to argue that ad tech is just one big, two sided market that connects advertisers and impressions.

So, if you remember, we've talked about how Google is trying to argue that ad tech is just one big, two sided market that connects advertisers and impressions.

Not even publishers.

Not even publishers.

Publicers don't exist, Okay, So that two sided market argument comes from Mark Israel's work, or it was his expert report that really defined that argument and.

Publicers don't exist, Okay, So that two sided market argument comes from Mark Israel's work, or it was his expert report that really defined that argument and.

For the listener's sake, what is this man? Like? What does he do for a living?

For the listener's sake, what is this man? Like? What does he do for a living?

Yeah, so that's what the DOJ wanted to know. So apparently.

Yeah, so that's what the DOJ wanted to know. So apparently.

He makes eighty percent of his money and spends a five percent of his time being an expert witness, so literally getting cool paid to say what people want him to say cool.

He makes eighty percent of his money and spends a five percent of his time being an expert witness, so literally getting cool paid to say what people want him to say cool.

So is that like a job that anyone could do? Just wondering, but in all serious this looking up this wonderful man's He has a PhD in economics from Stanford, MSc in economics from the University of Wisconsin Madison, so big ten BOYBA in economics from Illinois Wesleyan University. This man's job is just having a job. It's just like existing and saying stuff that people asking, like, come on, man, you can't do this, Well, I mean you can, and he does.

So is that like a job that anyone could do? Just wondering, but in all serious this looking up this wonderful man's He has a PhD in economics from Stanford, MSc in economics from the University of Wisconsin Madison, so big ten BOYBA in economics from Illinois Wesleyan University. This man's job is just having a job. It's just like existing and saying stuff that people asking, like, come on, man, you can't do this, Well, I mean you can, and he does.

He.

He.

I think it's worth noting he was the expert witness for Google at the search trial too that they just lost, and and he's done like fifty or so different cases. He's also Albertson's and Kroger, which is playing out in the grocery store space. So yeah, this is his full time job.

I think it's worth noting he was the expert witness for Google at the search trial too that they just lost, and and he's done like fifty or so different cases. He's also Albertson's and Kroger, which is playing out in the grocery store space. So yeah, this is his full time job.

Wait, so he's in the Albatsons and Kroger case as well. Yeah, Jesus, so this man's this man's job is just like kind of being a sock puppet, but like a really well paid one.

Wait, so he's in the Albatsons and Kroger case as well. Yeah, Jesus, so this man's this man's job is just like kind of being a sock puppet, but like a really well paid one.

Your words. But as somebody sitting there listening to him testify, I guess I would say, and this happens a lot of time, I think with economists not to be critical of the whole field. But it wasn't connected to the real world at all, And so it was like, you know, an argument that nobody that understands the actual advertising business would agree with, like, yeah, it's one big, two sided market that also competes with Reddit and Facebook and all these other you know, large platforms, as if they're just directly similar and comparable.

Your words. But as somebody sitting there listening to him testify, I guess I would say, and this happens a lot of time, I think with economists not to be critical of the whole field. But it wasn't connected to the real world at all, And so it was like, you know, an argument that nobody that understands the actual advertising business would agree with, like, yeah, it's one big, two sided market that also competes with Reddit and Facebook and all these other you know, large platforms, as if they're just directly similar and comparable.

So, and how did his augument do with the judge?

So, and how did his augument do with the judge?

I didn't think it did well at all. I mean, as he was spinning the yarn in the beginning it I could see where somebody could be convinced that they didn't really understand the business. But then once the just Department did their cross, it really fell apart in my mind. I don't know if if you have a different point of view.

I didn't think it did well at all. I mean, as he was spinning the yarn in the beginning it I could see where somebody could be convinced that they didn't really understand the business. But then once the just Department did their cross, it really fell apart in my mind. I don't know if if you have a different point of view.

Yeah, no, I agree with that.

Yeah, no, I agree with that.

And you could tell because at one point, when he was talking about one of the alleged reasonable substitutes that publishers have, he was basically saying that a publisher that has a website and sells ads on their website can just move those ads to their app, right, And so the judge asks like, well, what if the publisher doesn't have an app, and he's like, well, then there would be they would need to build one. She's like, well that would cost money, no, And he's like, well, yeah, in that instance, they would need to pay money to build an app. That was the only and that, like, that was the simplest pushback point. We're not addressing the fact that, like the amount of people that end up on your website versus the amount of readers that will download an app are not the same. We got to that today when the DJ called their rebuttal witness. But yeah, that's the type of flavor that we that we got. And if the judge was not already skeptical from the direct, definitely the DOJ absolutely, I literally might. My immediate commentary was that the DJ mopped the floor with him so so.

And you could tell because at one point, when he was talking about one of the alleged reasonable substitutes that publishers have, he was basically saying that a publisher that has a website and sells ads on their website can just move those ads to their app, right, And so the judge asks like, well, what if the publisher doesn't have an app, and he's like, well, then there would be they would need to build one. She's like, well that would cost money, no, And he's like, well, yeah, in that instance, they would need to pay money to build an app. That was the only and that, like, that was the simplest pushback point. We're not addressing the fact that, like the amount of people that end up on your website versus the amount of readers that will download an app are not the same. We got to that today when the DJ called their rebuttal witness. But yeah, that's the type of flavor that we that we got. And if the judge was not already skeptical from the direct, definitely the DOJ absolutely, I literally might. My immediate commentary was that the DJ mopped the floor with him so so.

And just to be clear, his argument was, if you don't like Google's heavy monopoly. You could build your own app.

And just to be clear, his argument was, if you don't like Google's heavy monopoly. You could build your own app.

That's got yes and that, and it gets more wild, Like at one point he was saying that if if a publisher's ad server is is bad, then advertisers might move money to Facebook. Like these two things have nothing to do so if the tool a publisher uses to manage their campaigns as bad, an advertiser might move money to social media.

That's got yes and that, and it gets more wild, Like at one point he was saying that if if a publisher's ad server is is bad, then advertisers might move money to Facebook. Like these two things have nothing to do so if the tool a publisher uses to manage their campaigns as bad, an advertiser might move money to social media.

These It was just completely unhinged.

These It was just completely unhinged.

This man is meant to be smart. That feels like a dumb guy augment that that doesn't even make technically. Is this just Google's attempt to just kind of obfiscate things and try and muddy the waters.

This man is meant to be smart. That feels like a dumb guy augment that that doesn't even make technically. Is this just Google's attempt to just kind of obfiscate things and try and muddy the waters.

So I think I think I'm speculating, but I think what he was trying to drive at is that on some level, a good product on one side has implications for the other side. It's part of this bigger argument that they're trying to make for why Google being on both sides of the market of their alleged you know, two sided market is good that when they do something good for advertisers, the knock on effects are good for publishers and vice versa. What the DOJ points out is like okay, but that means ostensibly it can't always just be about the advertisers, right, And we didn't really have a good answer for that.

So I think I think I'm speculating, but I think what he was trying to drive at is that on some level, a good product on one side has implications for the other side. It's part of this bigger argument that they're trying to make for why Google being on both sides of the market of their alleged you know, two sided market is good that when they do something good for advertisers, the knock on effects are good for publishers and vice versa. What the DOJ points out is like okay, but that means ostensibly it can't always just be about the advertisers, right, And we didn't really have a good answer for that.

So we're at the end of this trial, though there are closing arguments in NOVEMBI mentioned before the call. How did the rest of the last week or so go? Was it mostly just Google attempting to muddy more like they come up with new arguments of any kind.

So we're at the end of this trial, though there are closing arguments in NOVEMBI mentioned before the call. How did the rest of the last week or so go? Was it mostly just Google attempting to muddy more like they come up with new arguments of any kind.

There's nothing. I didn't hear anything really new, and I think really the fireworks were mostly today as the just department brought in one of the publisher witnesses for a rebuttal, was the only rebuttal witness, and there was a lot of back and forth about whether or not he was gonna be able to testify again, but he basically, you know those arguments that Mark Israel Matthew Wheatland from the Daily Mail senior executive Daily Mail, and so each of those arguments that Israel had made, they kind of cleaned that up, I think the apartment and made it clear that that wasn't wasn't in the real world, that wasn't an issue. And but it got to the point then during when the when Google was doing it's cross where it got. Really, it's kind of absurd if you were in the room. I feel like the judge even knew it was absurd where they were, you know, if he was cleaning up that that it wasn't a real world situation that you could just, you know, shut down your website if things weren't working well with the Google monopoly and launch an app. And then Google's attorney started to compare the number of clicks it takes to type in a website, like literally down to the https colon slash slash versus downloading an app, and was actually comparing how much time it takes to do the two different things. And it was just I could understand how we were gaining that literal on the last day in the last witness.

There's nothing. I didn't hear anything really new, and I think really the fireworks were mostly today as the just department brought in one of the publisher witnesses for a rebuttal, was the only rebuttal witness, and there was a lot of back and forth about whether or not he was gonna be able to testify again, but he basically, you know those arguments that Mark Israel Matthew Wheatland from the Daily Mail senior executive Daily Mail, and so each of those arguments that Israel had made, they kind of cleaned that up, I think the apartment and made it clear that that wasn't wasn't in the real world, that wasn't an issue. And but it got to the point then during when the when Google was doing it's cross where it got. Really, it's kind of absurd if you were in the room. I feel like the judge even knew it was absurd where they were, you know, if he was cleaning up that that it wasn't a real world situation that you could just, you know, shut down your website if things weren't working well with the Google monopoly and launch an app. And then Google's attorney started to compare the number of clicks it takes to type in a website, like literally down to the https colon slash slash versus downloading an app, and was actually comparing how much time it takes to do the two different things. And it was just I could understand how we were gaining that literal on the last day in the last witness.

So was the argument the apps are easier to launch them websites.

So was the argument the apps are easier to launch them websites.

It felt like they were going back to Google's classic argument of you know, of efficiency and you know, competitions a click away, and you know, and all these arguments about how quickly you can do different things. So it was not working in my opinion.

It felt like they were going back to Google's classic argument of you know, of efficiency and you know, competitions a click away, and you know, and all these arguments about how quickly you can do different things. So it was not working in my opinion.

So, I mean in Google's world where they can just kind of like coerce their users and customers to do whatever they want them to. Maybe that that, maybe that works, but it doesn't really matter. How If it's the same amount of clicks for a consumer, for a user to download an app as it is to go to a website, no one can force them to download the app, right.

So, I mean in Google's world where they can just kind of like coerce their users and customers to do whatever they want them to. Maybe that that, maybe that works, but it doesn't really matter. How If it's the same amount of clicks for a consumer, for a user to download an app as it is to go to a website, no one can force them to download the app, right.

But yes, I completely agree. It was just ridiculous.

But yes, I completely agree. It was just ridiculous.

It also was like, because she decided to go there, it kept every time Wheatland went to talk, she had to cut him off because he was trying.

It also was like, because she decided to go there, it kept every time Wheatland went to talk, she had to cut him off because he was trying.

To You could tell me she being the judge here.

To You could tell me she being the judge here.

No, no, no.

No, no, no.

Every time Wheatland went to talk beyond a yes or no, Google's council needed to cut him off because she probably realized that he was going to say, well no, Like he kept saying, that's one way to get to a website, and obviously, you know, search results would be another one, you know.

Every time Wheatland went to talk beyond a yes or no, Google's council needed to cut him off because she probably realized that he was going to say, well no, Like he kept saying, that's one way to get to a website, and obviously, you know, search results would be another one, you know.

So it was just a very odd.

So it was just a very odd.

It really does feel and I said this last episode, it doesn't feel like Google came in with an argument. I'm astonished because these are meant to For years, we've seen these companies as these kind of mammoth organizations that can do what they want. But in front of a judge, they just seemed kind of pathetic.

It really does feel and I said this last episode, it doesn't feel like Google came in with an argument. I'm astonished because these are meant to For years, we've seen these companies as these kind of mammoth organizations that can do what they want. But in front of a judge, they just seemed kind of pathetic.

I think that the facts were just so not on their side that they really struggled. There was not one witness that they called where on cross examination, DJ didn't manage to surface something that set Google back a little bit or introduced something new that was bad, you know what I mean.

I think that the facts were just so not on their side that they really struggled. There was not one witness that they called where on cross examination, DJ didn't manage to surface something that set Google back a little bit or introduced something new that was bad, you know what I mean.

They just they didn't have very much.

They just they didn't have very much.

And so that's why their experts, and specifically Mark Israel, because the other experts that Google called their analysis relied heavily on Israel's report, right, so it was really hinging on Israel. I expected that there would be something at least.

And so that's why their experts, and specifically Mark Israel, because the other experts that Google called their analysis relied heavily on Israel's report, right, so it was really hinging on Israel. I expected that there would be something at least.

Somewhat compelling there, and when I.

Somewhat compelling there, and when I.

Saw that there was just absolutely nothing there, I mean, to me, that was the nail on the coffin for their case.

Saw that there was just absolutely nothing there, I mean, to me, that was the nail on the coffin for their case.

It's remarkable. It also kind of suggests that these other antitrust cases might be similarly chaotic, because you would think that, I think what is really stunning me, other than the fact that just kind of incompetent is you'd think they'd have planned for this, Like Jason, you've been getting you covered the search trial. Did they have a better argument there?

It's remarkable. It also kind of suggests that these other antitrust cases might be similarly chaotic, because you would think that, I think what is really stunning me, other than the fact that just kind of incompetent is you'd think they'd have planned for this, Like Jason, you've been getting you covered the search trial. Did they have a better argument there?

They did, and you know, I think their argument there was you know that they still had kind of a giant elf in the room that they were spending you know, upwards of twenty twenty five billion dollars a year for the search slot. And you know, if they were the best product out there and consumers, why it naturally then why they have to pay all that money? That was the big help in the room. But they at least could make arguments about exclusionary conduct and a few other things that they'll try to make in their appeal. I don't think they're going to win because the appeal goes to the same as in the same circuit as USB Microsoft, which it relied on. So but they, you know, it was more down to illegal arguments and they didn't have the same issues with deletion of emails and all that stuff in the same way that came out in this case. So yeah, I you know, one thing and I can thinking a lot about is. I mean, as much as you know they've got, it feels like, you know, almost every major law firm at their fingertips when they need them, and experts and paid experts, et cetera. It's a really complicated chess game when you've got remedies going on in California from your app store loss, and you've got the Search case remedies going on in DC and all these things are you know, dividing executive time within the company, and you also are trying to manage, you know, your business at the same time you've got Sundar Forsha going on TV a couple of nights ago, you know, to say that you know, everything's all good, right, It's it's a very complicated chess game no matter who you are.

They did, and you know, I think their argument there was you know that they still had kind of a giant elf in the room that they were spending you know, upwards of twenty twenty five billion dollars a year for the search slot. And you know, if they were the best product out there and consumers, why it naturally then why they have to pay all that money? That was the big help in the room. But they at least could make arguments about exclusionary conduct and a few other things that they'll try to make in their appeal. I don't think they're going to win because the appeal goes to the same as in the same circuit as USB Microsoft, which it relied on. So but they, you know, it was more down to illegal arguments and they didn't have the same issues with deletion of emails and all that stuff in the same way that came out in this case. So yeah, I you know, one thing and I can thinking a lot about is. I mean, as much as you know they've got, it feels like, you know, almost every major law firm at their fingertips when they need them, and experts and paid experts, et cetera. It's a really complicated chess game when you've got remedies going on in California from your app store loss, and you've got the Search case remedies going on in DC and all these things are you know, dividing executive time within the company, and you also are trying to manage, you know, your business at the same time you've got Sundar Forsha going on TV a couple of nights ago, you know, to say that you know, everything's all good, right, It's it's a very complicated chess game no matter who you are.

And do you think, what do you think these cases are kind of splitting their attention?

And do you think, what do you think these cases are kind of splitting their attention?

That would be my I mean, it has to be at some point, and you you kind of see that play out in the real world, you know, when you've got you know, I saw in the Search case. I think it was like one of the last days where you had Kent Walker, the chief legal officer at Google, you know, in the front row and then like literally move up to the lawyer's table, you know, which was kind of unusual to try to whisper to some of the lawyers in real time. So like he's gained involved right in the actual arguments at the trial as Search cases weighing down, And I sensed that a little bit today, Ari L I don't know if you sens this, you were in the courtroom, but like there was shuffling around by various Google and and their law firms.

That would be my I mean, it has to be at some point, and you you kind of see that play out in the real world, you know, when you've got you know, I saw in the Search case. I think it was like one of the last days where you had Kent Walker, the chief legal officer at Google, you know, in the front row and then like literally move up to the lawyer's table, you know, which was kind of unusual to try to whisper to some of the lawyers in real time. So like he's gained involved right in the actual arguments at the trial as Search cases weighing down, And I sensed that a little bit today, Ari L I don't know if you sens this, you were in the courtroom, but like there was shuffling around by various Google and and their law firms.

Folks. You know when you say shuffling around, is he just handing papers to the Yeah?

Folks. You know when you say shuffling around, is he just handing papers to the Yeah?

I mean there was like almost many huddles happening, you know, you know, a borderline close to disturbing the judge. But you had, you know, three or four people leaning back and forth talking to each other, and then people running out of the room and stuff. It was it was like they were, you know, dealing, They were trying to escalate and deal with things in real time because things weren't going.

I mean there was like almost many huddles happening, you know, you know, a borderline close to disturbing the judge. But you had, you know, three or four people leaning back and forth talking to each other, and then people running out of the room and stuff. It was it was like they were, you know, dealing, They were trying to escalate and deal with things in real time because things weren't going.

Well, I'm losing this trial.

Well, I'm losing this trial.

Like their whole team was there today like that. Everyone knew that today was going to be the last day. So Google's entire team was there. And I'll also say we knew it was a big team between like their associates and their comms people and stuff, but I didn't know quite how big it was. They they filled like the entire middle section of the courtroom, which is the largest section I'd say they have. They had three times the amount of people there that dooj did. And because everyone was there, you could see the full extent of the shuffling. So even someone next to me, all the way in the back of the room was having you know, notes scribbled and people were running back and forth to them handing them notes.

Like their whole team was there today like that. Everyone knew that today was going to be the last day. So Google's entire team was there. And I'll also say we knew it was a big team between like their associates and their comms people and stuff, but I didn't know quite how big it was. They they filled like the entire middle section of the courtroom, which is the largest section I'd say they have. They had three times the amount of people there that dooj did. And because everyone was there, you could see the full extent of the shuffling. So even someone next to me, all the way in the back of the room was having you know, notes scribbled and people were running back and forth to them handing them notes.

So it was like it was very obvious that there was.

So it was like it was very obvious that there was.

An all hands on deck scramble when the when DJ called their rebuttal witness and the judge decided to allow it to proceed.

An all hands on deck scramble when the when DJ called their rebuttal witness and the judge decided to allow it to proceed.

And what was so scary about this witness? What was it that that like chilled.

And what was so scary about this witness? What was it that that like chilled.

Them that he had the real world experience to knock down every single one of Mark Israel's wild recommendation.

Them that he had the real world experience to knock down every single one of Mark Israel's wild recommendation.

And this was the fellow from the Daily Mail, which just.

And this was the fellow from the Daily Mail, which just.

Correct correct, right.

Correct correct, right.

So it's like they were just going to go one by one and be like, you know, if if an advertiser moves spending to social does that impact your negotiations with Google?

So it's like they were just going to go one by one and be like, you know, if if an advertiser moves spending to social does that impact your negotiations with Google?

No, you know, like they just kind of went one by one.

No, you know, like they just kind of went one by one.

And because the questions, the hypotheticals are so outlandish, Google knew that he was going to seem confused by the very question, like like the premise is so backwards that it would that his sincere confusion would come across, you know.

And because the questions, the hypotheticals are so outlandish, Google knew that he was going to seem confused by the very question, like like the premise is so backwards that it would that his sincere confusion would come across, you know.

So that there is one person I want to bring up so big on tech, Tom Blakeley over there. He brought up on Tuesday that there was testimony from a guy called doctor Paul Milgram, Yes, from Stamford. Now Blakely seems to think that this was a good a good day for Google.

So that there is one person I want to bring up so big on tech, Tom Blakeley over there. He brought up on Tuesday that there was testimony from a guy called doctor Paul Milgram, Yes, from Stamford. Now Blakely seems to think that this was a good a good day for Google.

Well, yeah, thing, I wasn't there that day. I was actually up, which is a whole nother, a whole nother story.

Well, yeah, thing, I wasn't there that day. I was actually up, which is a whole nother, a whole nother story.

I was up.

I was up.

I ram up in New York real quickly for a conference.

I ram up in New York real quickly for a conference.

But I think R A. L.

But I think R A. L.

You were there. I know who he is though, and I actually think he probably could have been their best witness, expert witness. He's like an auction guru. But but Eril, you'd have to say how you thought it went my reado that wasn't yet.

You were there. I know who he is though, and I actually think he probably could have been their best witness, expert witness. He's like an auction guru. But but Eril, you'd have to say how you thought it went my reado that wasn't yet.

Yeah, I agree with that.

Yeah, I agree with that.

I think by far he was their best witness, and and he uh, it was very clear that the judge found him credible.

I think by far he was their best witness, and and he uh, it was very clear that the judge found him credible.

I would say he's.

I would say he's.

The witness that the judge engaged directly with the most on on both sides.

The witness that the judge engaged directly with the most on on both sides.

What was his How did they use him?

What was his How did they use him?

Uh to explain the like the auction dynamics, like try they were trying to use him to explain why last look wasn't always beneficial to Google.

Uh to explain the like the auction dynamics, like try they were trying to use him to explain why last look wasn't always beneficial to Google.

Why Why that's where you can see the bits of competing advertisers and beat them by a dollar.

Why Why that's where you can see the bits of competing advertisers and beat them by a dollar.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, So they went through each of those kind of like auction dynamic questions. But I still think that the DOJ did well on cross at highlighting things that he didn't bring up. I don't want to like get too far into the weeds on it, but but.

Yeah, yeah, So they went through each of those kind of like auction dynamic questions. But I still think that the DOJ did well on cross at highlighting things that he didn't bring up. I don't want to like get too far into the weeds on it, but but.

Yeah, they but the DOJ did a good job at.

Yeah, they but the DOJ did a good job at.

Illuminating the things that he just didn't emphasize. Right, They played some games with a timeline of changes they made to their product. And it's not that his testimony necessarily was false, but it was a little bit misleading the way it presented things. If if you consider the timelines of the changes that Google implemented, and I think the DJ did a good job of clearing that up.

Illuminating the things that he just didn't emphasize. Right, They played some games with a timeline of changes they made to their product. And it's not that his testimony necessarily was false, but it was a little bit misleading the way it presented things. If if you consider the timelines of the changes that Google implemented, and I think the DJ did a good job of clearing that up.

But I do think that this was Google's strongest witness.

But I do think that this was Google's strongest witness.

Yeah, it's it seems like though having one strong witness is not going to win them this case. If I'm honest, it doesn't sound like it went well. And I mean, maybe this is the right time to lost both of you. What do you think happens?

Yeah, it's it seems like though having one strong witness is not going to win them this case. If I'm honest, it doesn't sound like it went well. And I mean, maybe this is the right time to lost both of you. What do you think happens?

I mean in terms of the actual opinion. Yeah, it didn't you've heard from me. It didn't go it didn't go. Well there, yeah, they one expert witness actually gained into the granular detail of auctions and that you know, that element probably isn't need necessary anyway, because the monopoly power is clear, and the conflict of me is clear, and the tying is clear. So you know, depending on on the actual analysis of a paid witness by Google, is really a hail mary at that point, it's very I think it's very rare that expert witness like that can can swing the case. So I think if, if very much, the DOJ's case to lose at this point, I mean, they've they're going to update their findings of fact and and you know, they still have the advantage of the judge questioning the credibility of all the Google witnesses from the deletion of the chats, et cetera. So so then we just get to remedies. And we've you know, since we last talked, we've got the schedule for remedies in search too, so those are going to be happy, you know, probably shortly after the ad tech remedies.

I mean in terms of the actual opinion. Yeah, it didn't you've heard from me. It didn't go it didn't go. Well there, yeah, they one expert witness actually gained into the granular detail of auctions and that you know, that element probably isn't need necessary anyway, because the monopoly power is clear, and the conflict of me is clear, and the tying is clear. So you know, depending on on the actual analysis of a paid witness by Google, is really a hail mary at that point, it's very I think it's very rare that expert witness like that can can swing the case. So I think if, if very much, the DOJ's case to lose at this point, I mean, they've they're going to update their findings of fact and and you know, they still have the advantage of the judge questioning the credibility of all the Google witnesses from the deletion of the chats, et cetera. So so then we just get to remedies. And we've you know, since we last talked, we've got the schedule for remedies in search too, so those are going to be happy, you know, probably shortly after the ad tech remedies.

So here we go when would those be?

So here we go when would those be?

That hearing is going to be in April, and Judge Meta said he wants to have his opinion out by the summertime. So and so in the asset case, the attach case closing arguments are November, and I would think that means her opinion probably will be out January. I would doubt it before the holidays.

That hearing is going to be in April, and Judge Meta said he wants to have his opinion out by the summertime. So and so in the asset case, the attach case closing arguments are November, and I would think that means her opinion probably will be out January. I would doubt it before the holidays.

How are you feeling about a real so what do you think might happen?

How are you feeling about a real so what do you think might happen?

I mean, I agree, I like especially when I think about like the ad server monopolization claim, the tying claim, I don't really see a realm in reality that where the DOJ's claims there don't succeed.

I mean, I agree, I like especially when I think about like the ad server monopolization claim, the tying claim, I don't really see a realm in reality that where the DOJ's claims there don't succeed.

There's just like, there's so.

There's just like, there's so.

Much evidence to prove it, and there's so little evidence that Google put forward to even try to refute it. They put all of their eggs in that market definition basket. And from that perspective, I think, you know, I was debating in my mind earlier and actually with Tom Blakely if they should have called the rebuttal witness. But I do see the value in what they did because they literally close their rebuttal by saying, okay, what like, what is the tool that ultimately decides what AD is served, and he says the AD server, Okay, who's your AD server?

Much evidence to prove it, and there's so little evidence that Google put forward to even try to refute it. They put all of their eggs in that market definition basket. And from that perspective, I think, you know, I was debating in my mind earlier and actually with Tom Blakely if they should have called the rebuttal witness. But I do see the value in what they did because they literally close their rebuttal by saying, okay, what like, what is the tool that ultimately decides what AD is served, and he says the AD server, Okay, who's your AD server?

Google?

Google?

Right?

Right?

So I just I think they ended it perfectly.

So I just I think they ended it perfectly.

I don't think that there's a way that the AD server or the tying claims fail. I'm interested to see what happens with the AD network side of things, because I think that the DOJ spent the least amount of time on that.

I don't think that there's a way that the AD server or the tying claims fail. I'm interested to see what happens with the AD network side of things, because I think that the DOJ spent the least amount of time on that.

But I also don't think it really changes the remedy very much.

But I also don't think it really changes the remedy very much.

Well, do you think the remedies might be though? Do you think that they bring like is it even like are we going to just see the entire thing shattered? I realized we're all guessing he by the way the entire Google thing chattered, I mean, I mean that's where the AD side of Google.

Well, do you think the remedies might be though? Do you think that they bring like is it even like are we going to just see the entire thing shattered? I realized we're all guessing he by the way the entire Google thing chattered, I mean, I mean that's where the AD side of Google.

The adside of Google. I mean, I don't think there's any way that if Google loses, I don't see there's any way that's not the remedy, because that's what the JUST Department said was the appropriate relief and all the evidence points. Do you know, unless you believe it's a two sided market that is just more efficient that way, then there's no other real defense that doesn't you know, you can't go anywhere else except for break the ad tech business apart.

The adside of Google. I mean, I don't think there's any way that if Google loses, I don't see there's any way that's not the remedy, because that's what the JUST Department said was the appropriate relief and all the evidence points. Do you know, unless you believe it's a two sided market that is just more efficient that way, then there's no other real defense that doesn't you know, you can't go anywhere else except for break the ad tech business apart.

So, and to take a step back, when you say it's a two sided market, is that what are they actually arguing that? Like, what is Google's argument in that way? Is it?

So, and to take a step back, when you say it's a two sided market, is that what are they actually arguing that? Like, what is Google's argument in that way? Is it?

That?

That?

Is it just the publishers don't exist.

Is it just the publishers don't exist.

Yeah, it's a little bit of a messnomer to explain it. Yeah, it's a because I know there is the argument that there's publishers and advertisers are on both sides. And that's actually the DJ's case. This is a legal term for a two sided market. That and it relates to the America Express Ohio case and and so yes, yeah, so you know it actually you know, it stems from the notion of when you run a I think technically a debit card through like are you, as the merchant if I if I get this right, like as a merchant, if somebody is about to use an American Express card that costs them more money, is the merchant allowed to say, hey, if you use your Visa card or whatever other card, then you won't have to pay me, as you know you I want to pay as much and can you steer? And so there's some some legal following out from there that that leads to an offense.

Yeah, it's a little bit of a messnomer to explain it. Yeah, it's a because I know there is the argument that there's publishers and advertisers are on both sides. And that's actually the DJ's case. This is a legal term for a two sided market. That and it relates to the America Express Ohio case and and so yes, yeah, so you know it actually you know, it stems from the notion of when you run a I think technically a debit card through like are you, as the merchant if I if I get this right, like as a merchant, if somebody is about to use an American Express card that costs them more money, is the merchant allowed to say, hey, if you use your Visa card or whatever other card, then you won't have to pay me, as you know you I want to pay as much and can you steer? And so there's some some legal following out from there that that leads to an offense.

So and that argument isn't gonna work for Google though, because.

So and that argument isn't gonna work for Google though, because.

That in Google's world, it's a single Yeah, it's one big thing, like one big contraption, right, that just handles more efficiently the entire ad marketplace.

That in Google's world, it's a single Yeah, it's one big thing, like one big contraption, right, that just handles more efficiently the entire ad marketplace.

So yeah, as opposed to what it is, which it sounds like you're paying Google to advertise with Google and then Google messing with the old shapes that Google exactly effectively led it. Yeah, exactly what a bizarre I mean, you two have been there. This feels like a very bizarre trial, just a peculiar one to have watched because all these other tech trials, having obviously not been in court with myself, haven't read a good amount of transcripts listening listen to various depositions and stuff, even going back to like the Bill Gates deposition one where he was asking for like the very minute definitions. They always seem very cocky. They always seem like they add a bit pisson vinegar to them. This one they just seem to be kind of milling about.

So yeah, as opposed to what it is, which it sounds like you're paying Google to advertise with Google and then Google messing with the old shapes that Google exactly effectively led it. Yeah, exactly what a bizarre I mean, you two have been there. This feels like a very bizarre trial, just a peculiar one to have watched because all these other tech trials, having obviously not been in court with myself, haven't read a good amount of transcripts listening listen to various depositions and stuff, even going back to like the Bill Gates deposition one where he was asking for like the very minute definitions. They always seem very cocky. They always seem like they add a bit pisson vinegar to them. This one they just seem to be kind of milling about.

Oh no, they were, they're they're. The arrogance is definitely there.

Oh no, they were, they're they're. The arrogance is definitely there.

Oh yeah, oh yeah, Like if you talk to anyone that goes to their secret briefings, they're like, they're so they appear so confident in their case that they actually start to confuse the people that have been there watching the trial about whether they are seeing what they think they're seeing. But that Google's entire strategy, you know what I mean? So confidence no matter what they they put out there.

Oh yeah, oh yeah, Like if you talk to anyone that goes to their secret briefings, they're like, they're so they appear so confident in their case that they actually start to confuse the people that have been there watching the trial about whether they are seeing what they think they're seeing. But that Google's entire strategy, you know what I mean? So confidence no matter what they they put out there.

Yeah, cool, So what do.

Yeah, cool, So what do.

You think about if I can ask Gurriel question? There was a moment this morning where when Matthew Wheland from Daily Mail was testifying and they were trying, they were they were objecting to back and forth to something just department was asking. But ultimately the judge made a comment about there's clearly a lot of competition in that market, and I think she was my read I was she was talking generally about something and they were all talking over each other. But like that was the one line where I was like the judge, it didn't make any sense in the context of DFP, which is really what mattered there, and DFP has ninety one percent of the market, so like it didn't fit. But so I found it quite like.

You think about if I can ask Gurriel question? There was a moment this morning where when Matthew Wheland from Daily Mail was testifying and they were trying, they were they were objecting to back and forth to something just department was asking. But ultimately the judge made a comment about there's clearly a lot of competition in that market, and I think she was my read I was she was talking generally about something and they were all talking over each other. But like that was the one line where I was like the judge, it didn't make any sense in the context of DFP, which is really what mattered there, and DFP has ninety one percent of the market, so like it didn't fit. But so I found it quite like.

You break that down a little bit, what do you mean by DFP and what'd.

You break that down a little bit, what do you mean by DFP and what'd.

You mean publisher at So the publisher ad server, which Google has.

You mean publisher at So the publisher ad server, which Google has.

The place where it publishes sell their ads.

The place where it publishes sell their ads.

Yeah, and Google has ninety one percent of the marketplace for that software. So that's the that's one of the three monopolies alleged, is the publisher ad server marketplace. And and Google has ninety one percent of the market, which most average person street and definitely any lawyer would say is monopoly power at ninety one percent.

Yeah, and Google has ninety one percent of the marketplace for that software. So that's the that's one of the three monopolies alleged, is the publisher ad server marketplace. And and Google has ninety one percent of the market, which most average person street and definitely any lawyer would say is monopoly power at ninety one percent.

And so yeah, there's no way, there's no way that that judge that the judge was talking about the ad server market. My read is so it was a chaotic flurry of objections, right, And if we remember how the objection started, it was the DOJ wanted to call Wheatland. Karen Dunn was upset because why is a fact witness being called to rebut an expert, And they argued about it, and then finally he's allowed to go on, and then they asked him the first question, and there's a flurry of objections again, and then they asked the question about whether Google whether the ad server market is competitive, and that's where this objection fest happened.

And so yeah, there's no way, there's no way that that judge that the judge was talking about the ad server market. My read is so it was a chaotic flurry of objections, right, And if we remember how the objection started, it was the DOJ wanted to call Wheatland. Karen Dunn was upset because why is a fact witness being called to rebut an expert, And they argued about it, and then finally he's allowed to go on, and then they asked him the first question, and there's a flurry of objections again, and then they asked the question about whether Google whether the ad server market is competitive, and that's where this objection fest happened.

And so my understanding is.

And so my understanding is.

The judge knew that the everything at issue here was they wanted to use him to rebut Mark Israel Mar Israel thinks it's all one two sided market. And I believe that the judge was thought that the question was about that big market when she said that it was, it's clear that it's competitive, because remember just it was like five minutes ago that the judge was saying that market definition is a core issue in this case, and it's one that the court is going to need to resolve.

The judge knew that the everything at issue here was they wanted to use him to rebut Mark Israel Mar Israel thinks it's all one two sided market. And I believe that the judge was thought that the question was about that big market when she said that it was, it's clear that it's competitive, because remember just it was like five minutes ago that the judge was saying that market definition is a core issue in this case, and it's one that the court is going to need to resolve.

You know, got it, got it makes sense? Makes sense.

You know, got it, got it makes sense? Makes sense.

What a bizarre year year this has been for tech in general. I mean, as we wrap up this wonderful series and thank you both for doing this, it does feel like something has changed with how definitely like society, but almost all of these judges are looking at the tech industry. They're not friends anymore. There's no it doesn't feel like the government is on tech's side anymore.

What a bizarre year year this has been for tech in general. I mean, as we wrap up this wonderful series and thank you both for doing this, it does feel like something has changed with how definitely like society, but almost all of these judges are looking at the tech industry. They're not friends anymore. There's no it doesn't feel like the government is on tech's side anymore.

Well, I think that my rate is that, you know, the courts are very much just calling balls and strikes, and I I would applaud this judge. I mean, incredible that she got through everything in three weeks instead of six. She clearly was tracking and followed what happened with Judge Meta's case in DC. She actually referenced today something from the California case where Google had argued the very opposite defense as what they were arguing in court today, and she said that that was very problematic for Google, and so they'd address it during the final closing argument. So, you know, they're all paying attention to each other, and they're calling balls and strikes. And then yes, the PRUS, you know, the AGS and the Just Department are doing a masterful job of understanding the you know, the sophistication of these companies.

Well, I think that my rate is that, you know, the courts are very much just calling balls and strikes, and I I would applaud this judge. I mean, incredible that she got through everything in three weeks instead of six. She clearly was tracking and followed what happened with Judge Meta's case in DC. She actually referenced today something from the California case where Google had argued the very opposite defense as what they were arguing in court today, and she said that that was very problematic for Google, and so they'd address it during the final closing argument. So, you know, they're all paying attention to each other, and they're calling balls and strikes. And then yes, the PRUS, you know, the AGS and the Just Department are doing a masterful job of understanding the you know, the sophistication of these companies.

Yeah, it's it's a fun time to be alive and reporting on this and you two have done just incredible work. And I want to thank you on behalf of listeners as well. You've both been kicking off and checked my ads, in particular with usv Google Ads, which will be linked at the end of this episode. You've done just a phenomenal job here and I I don't know if this would have been as well covered without you both, actually, so thank you.

Yeah, it's it's a fun time to be alive and reporting on this and you two have done just incredible work. And I want to thank you on behalf of listeners as well. You've both been kicking off and checked my ads, in particular with usv Google Ads, which will be linked at the end of this episode. You've done just a phenomenal job here and I I don't know if this would have been as well covered without you both, actually, so thank you.

Thank you, thank you for having us.

Thank you, thank you for having us.

So I'm going to call it there, Ariel work and people find you.

So I'm going to call it there, Ariel work and people find you.

You can find me a check my adds dot org. You can find me at Ariel s Garcia on.

You can find me a check my adds dot org. You can find me at Ariel s Garcia on.

Twitter, Jason Underscore kent ordigitalcontentnext dot org sometimes called DCN.

Twitter, Jason Underscore kent ordigitalcontentnext dot org sometimes called DCN.

That works for thanks, and you can find me by googling who ruined Google search. That will bring you to an article that I wrote thanks to an AI overview, you've been listening to Better Offline. That's the end of our coverage for now, but I'll be bringing back both Ariel and Jason for the closing arguments sometime in November. Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matosowski. You can check out more of his music and audio project at Mattasowski dot com m A T T O. S O W s ki dot com. You can email me at easy at Better offline dot com or visit Better offline dot com to find more podcast links and of course my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat dot Where's your heead dot at to visit the discord, and go to our slash Better Offline to check out our reddit. Thank you so much for listening.

That works for thanks, and you can find me by googling who ruined Google search. That will bring you to an article that I wrote thanks to an AI overview, you've been listening to Better Offline. That's the end of our coverage for now, but I'll be bringing back both Ariel and Jason for the closing arguments sometime in November. Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matosowski. You can check out more of his music and audio project at Mattasowski dot com m A T T O. S O W s ki dot com. You can email me at easy at Better offline dot com or visit Better offline dot com to find more podcast links and of course my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat dot Where's your heead dot at to visit the discord, and go to our slash Better Offline to check out our reddit. Thank you so much for listening.

Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media.

Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media.

For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.