Also media coming up, Will Steve Burke of gamers Nexus be able to help d zitron understand tariffs? Should we treat Sam Altman's new startup like a venereal disease?

Also media coming up, Will Steve Burke of gamers Nexus be able to help d zitron understand tariffs? Should we treat Sam Altman's new startup like a venereal disease?

And who is the mysterious.

And who is the mysterious.

Identical man living in Kevin Russ's mirror? All this and more on this week's Better Offline.

Identical man living in Kevin Russ's mirror? All this and more on this week's Better Offline.

Good grief.

Good grief.

That's right, you're listening to Better Offline. I'm your host ed Zititron. As a reminder, you're now able to buy Better Offline merch. Check the episode notes for a link. Of course, More importantly, today, I'm joined by Steve Burke, the host of the incredible Game is Next as someone I wanted them the shows since I started at Steve recently put a three hour long video called the Death of Affordable Computing, and it's the single best way of seeing anybody explain the current tariff situation. Steve, thank you for joining me.

That's right, you're listening to Better Offline. I'm your host ed Zititron. As a reminder, you're now able to buy Better Offline merch. Check the episode notes for a link. Of course, More importantly, today, I'm joined by Steve Burke, the host of the incredible Game is Next as someone I wanted them the shows since I started at Steve recently put a three hour long video called the Death of Affordable Computing, and it's the single best way of seeing anybody explain the current tariff situation. Steve, thank you for joining me.

Oh thanks for having me.

Oh thanks for having me.

Yeah, I'm excited to talk more about it.

Yeah, I'm excited to talk more about it.

So, is there any way you can break down in simple language how these tariffs actually work?

So, is there any way you can break down in simple language how these tariffs actually work?

I mean, effectively the tariffs are they're effectively attacks. Right, let's pay it on imports? So the goods come in from any other country that's potentially tariff and the company bringing those goods in has to pay some amount in order to complete bringing them in, and so that then gets passed on to somebody. Maybe they absorb some of the costs, maybe they increase the price of the product. But tariffs in general, of course not a new concept, and it's just this particular round of them has effected the computer hardware industry in a larger way.

I mean, effectively the tariffs are they're effectively attacks. Right, let's pay it on imports? So the goods come in from any other country that's potentially tariff and the company bringing those goods in has to pay some amount in order to complete bringing them in, and so that then gets passed on to somebody. Maybe they absorb some of the costs, maybe they increase the price of the product. But tariffs in general, of course not a new concept, and it's just this particular round of them has effected the computer hardware industry in a larger way.

So they're paid by the people receiving the goods. So the computer so like height or CyberPower, whomever receiving a case, for example, would pay the tariff before they even shifted to someone.

So they're paid by the people receiving the goods. So the computer so like height or CyberPower, whomever receiving a case, for example, would pay the tariff before they even shifted to someone.

Correct.

Correct.

Yeah, I mean it's the same all the way down to the smallest companies. We spoke to Lewis Rossman as part of that piece. He's known best for probably right to Repair, and he's a good example where as a small repair shop in Austin, Texas. He's got maybe six or so employees. He personally doesn't, as he said in the video, bring them the goods, but he buys them from someone who does. So you know, then that person would be the one importing them in paying the tariff.

Yeah, I mean it's the same all the way down to the smallest companies. We spoke to Lewis Rossman as part of that piece. He's known best for probably right to Repair, and he's a good example where as a small repair shop in Austin, Texas. He's got maybe six or so employees. He personally doesn't, as he said in the video, bring them the goods, but he buys them from someone who does. So you know, then that person would be the one importing them in paying the tariff.

So what made you want to make this video because you've done a good amount of PC industry stuff, but tarift feels like a jump from you. Not an allogical one though.

So what made you want to make this video because you've done a good amount of PC industry stuff, but tarift feels like a jump from you. Not an allogical one though.

Yeah, tariffs.

Yeah, tariffs.

It's a big topic and it was very challenging to try and approach because for us, the number one reason to get into it was just we're starting to see the impact on computer hardware and a lot of companies had things to say about it, so that was the obvious reason to maybe look into it. The hesitations from us initially were this is a topic that it's very difficult to completely isolate from politics, which we try to stay away from. But it's also important and it does affect what we talk about every day, which is value and pricing. But the other challenge is that this is not something where I can claim to be an expert, like global trade. You might imagine, Yeah.

It's a big topic and it was very challenging to try and approach because for us, the number one reason to get into it was just we're starting to see the impact on computer hardware and a lot of companies had things to say about it, so that was the obvious reason to maybe look into it. The hesitations from us initially were this is a topic that it's very difficult to completely isolate from politics, which we try to stay away from. But it's also important and it does affect what we talk about every day, which is value and pricing. But the other challenge is that this is not something where I can claim to be an expert, like global trade. You might imagine, Yeah.

Yeah, it's a very large topic.

Yeah, it's a very large topic.

But that made it interesting to us because it was one of those like, okay, so we're closer to where you might expect most viewers to be in terms of knowledge, where you're just getting the information daily, with the one exception that we might have better access to companies that do have a lot of experience with this stuff, and maybe no one person can break down global trade for us, and we've all seen economists on TV and whatever. But what we could get is people talking about just how does it affect them and their company and then hopefully with that put together a fuller picture that's a little more maybe like a pragmatic approach to it. So that was a yeah, that was the way to break it down for us.

But that made it interesting to us because it was one of those like, okay, so we're closer to where you might expect most viewers to be in terms of knowledge, where you're just getting the information daily, with the one exception that we might have better access to companies that do have a lot of experience with this stuff, and maybe no one person can break down global trade for us, and we've all seen economists on TV and whatever. But what we could get is people talking about just how does it affect them and their company and then hopefully with that put together a fuller picture that's a little more maybe like a pragmatic approach to it. So that was a yeah, that was the way to break it down for us.

So for the listeners who haven't watched the video, and I say, this is someone who can barely make it through a half an hour video, watch the whole bloody thing. How what are the current effects? What are the things happening today? To say, PC manufacturers that people might not know about.

So for the listeners who haven't watched the video, and I say, this is someone who can barely make it through a half an hour video, watch the whole bloody thing. How what are the current effects? What are the things happening today? To say, PC manufacturers that people might not know about.

It's interesting, so might not know about makes that interesting. The ones that people do know about. I'll keep brief here, but just days ago Microsoft moved to increase pricing of its xboxes. Logitech has increased prices of its peripheral components keyboards and mice and so forth. And this is something we're going to see a course here.

It's interesting, so might not know about makes that interesting. The ones that people do know about. I'll keep brief here, but just days ago Microsoft moved to increase pricing of its xboxes. Logitech has increased prices of its peripheral components keyboards and mice and so forth. And this is something we're going to see a course here.

I was just speaking to them.

I was just speaking to them.

They're about to increase the price of some of their computer cases that we're in the process of reviewing, and that's kind of the obvious one of that's the one people expect. There's also and having listened to some of your previous episodes, I think this might be a topic you'd want to get into. But there's also some room for greed, corporate greed where this is a great cover story for them to change some prices. But then as far as answer the question like what effects might people not know about, I think there's there's some really interesting ones sort of downchain in the in the supply chain, where things like logistics and freight and shipping companies are starting to have to deal with potentially reduced hours. And so you think about the supply chain, like to get a product from a country to another country, you know, just to make it in say China, a motherboard might require something like one hundred factories futality, all of them meaning including yeah, including the metals factories. And so you've got all those impacts, and then you have the freight and the couriers, the port, the dock workers, the couriers on the other side, the warehouse workers. Right, it's just a huge chain, and it's really it can't be elastic.

They're about to increase the price of some of their computer cases that we're in the process of reviewing, and that's kind of the obvious one of that's the one people expect. There's also and having listened to some of your previous episodes, I think this might be a topic you'd want to get into. But there's also some room for greed, corporate greed where this is a great cover story for them to change some prices. But then as far as answer the question like what effects might people not know about, I think there's there's some really interesting ones sort of downchain in the in the supply chain, where things like logistics and freight and shipping companies are starting to have to deal with potentially reduced hours. And so you think about the supply chain, like to get a product from a country to another country, you know, just to make it in say China, a motherboard might require something like one hundred factories futality, all of them meaning including yeah, including the metals factories. And so you've got all those impacts, and then you have the freight and the couriers, the port, the dock workers, the couriers on the other side, the warehouse workers. Right, it's just a huge chain, and it's really it can't be elastic.

It's got to be pretty rigid.

It's got to be pretty rigid.

One of the interesting ones we're seeing though, is some of the factories from some of the companies I was just speaking with, are beginning to adjust their terms. So factories will allow terms of payment to be potentially partially upfront and partially on completion of order. Some of them are starting to adjust to frontload more of the upfront cost or all of it. And that's because they have kind of gotten scared of potential order abandonment. When companies can't afford the tariff, they abandon the container and stiff the factory. Yeah, and so that'll have this unseen impact later. It's going to affect the cost of money. Companies have to borrow money a lot of times to bring this stuff in. They have to pay more upfront.

One of the interesting ones we're seeing though, is some of the factories from some of the companies I was just speaking with, are beginning to adjust their terms. So factories will allow terms of payment to be potentially partially upfront and partially on completion of order. Some of them are starting to adjust to frontload more of the upfront cost or all of it. And that's because they have kind of gotten scared of potential order abandonment. When companies can't afford the tariff, they abandon the container and stiff the factory. Yeah, and so that'll have this unseen impact later. It's going to affect the cost of money. Companies have to borrow money a lot of times to bring this stuff in. They have to pay more upfront.

Oh, so I hope be borrowing more money upfront because otherwise, exactly the way, they won't be able to afford the orders that are now more expensive on the front end.

Oh, so I hope be borrowing more money upfront because otherwise, exactly the way, they won't be able to afford the orders that are now more expensive on the front end.

Yeah, and then they pay interest for a longer period of time that gets factored in. So it's just really like the more you talk to people, the more there's all these hidden consequences that pop up. And the one thing everyone kind of drove home was. It's not to them the tariffs themselves that are necessarily the problem. It's sort of the way they were being rolled out where it was at least for a couple of weeks. They're nearly daily changes and unpredictable.

Yeah, and then they pay interest for a longer period of time that gets factored in. So it's just really like the more you talk to people, the more there's all these hidden consequences that pop up. And the one thing everyone kind of drove home was. It's not to them the tariffs themselves that are necessarily the problem. It's sort of the way they were being rolled out where it was at least for a couple of weeks. They're nearly daily changes and unpredictable.

I did like during the video watching as you went from from person to person saying, Okay, right now, this tariff is this By the end of this conversation, it may not be. Yeah, insane way to run global trade. You had a few examples as well where it kind of looked like certain things would just doubling cost for the company, that they would just be paying effectively nearly double, or like if it's one hundred and twenty bucks to buy something, they're paying one hundred bucks on top. How is any of this sustainable?

I did like during the video watching as you went from from person to person saying, Okay, right now, this tariff is this By the end of this conversation, it may not be. Yeah, insane way to run global trade. You had a few examples as well where it kind of looked like certain things would just doubling cost for the company, that they would just be paying effectively nearly double, or like if it's one hundred and twenty bucks to buy something, they're paying one hundred bucks on top. How is any of this sustainable?

I think, I mean, yeah, for the computer industry, I'm not sure that it is sustainable. There's already there's already been price creep that is not anything to do with tariffs.

I think, I mean, yeah, for the computer industry, I'm not sure that it is sustainable. There's already there's already been price creep that is not anything to do with tariffs.

It's just over the last several years.

It's just over the last several years.

The companies, Yeah, I mean, they've they have big markets to sell into, and so if you're a small time consumer or gammer, you use Adobe Premiere with the Kuduk GPU you're just not at the top of the priorities, and the only way to get closer to the top is to pay a whole hell of a lot more for the components. So like there's already been price creep.

The companies, Yeah, I mean, they've they have big markets to sell into, and so if you're a small time consumer or gammer, you use Adobe Premiere with the Kuduk GPU you're just not at the top of the priorities, and the only way to get closer to the top is to pay a whole hell of a lot more for the components. So like there's already been price creep.

Well, when you say pay a lot more for the components, who's paying more there?

Well, when you say pay a lot more for the components, who's paying more there?

It's it's the consumer.

It's it's the consumer.

I mean, yeah, so it's really the high end stuff is the best you have. Why do you have to buy the more expensive stuff? Is it just that it will be the cheap ones are having to use lower quality components or is it something else?

I mean, yeah, so it's really the high end stuff is the best you have. Why do you have to buy the more expensive stuff? Is it just that it will be the cheap ones are having to use lower quality components or is it something else?

Well, it's it's interesting because it's almost like this question, I think, is it the real answer is that cheap stuff doesn't exist anymore? Huh, Like the cheap products are gone, and this is pre tariffs. This is like it's only getting worse. But you look at GPUs, Nvidia, with its dominance, has has managed to slowly shift the low end into the mid range in terms of pricing, and the mid range into the high end in terms of pricing, but not in terms of necessarily performance scaling. And so you're already paying disproportionately more for what you're getting versus several years ago. And this is beyond inflation. This is beyond tariffs. You stack something massive tariffs on top of it, and people who are already kind of struggling to justify a purchase of an expensive GPU. I was looking at RTX fifty nineties, which are supposed to be about a two thousand dollars video card, about a week or two ago. I haven't checked today, but and the cards were typically in the twenty nine hundred to three hundred three thousand dollars.

Well, it's it's interesting because it's almost like this question, I think, is it the real answer is that cheap stuff doesn't exist anymore? Huh, Like the cheap products are gone, and this is pre tariffs. This is like it's only getting worse. But you look at GPUs, Nvidia, with its dominance, has has managed to slowly shift the low end into the mid range in terms of pricing, and the mid range into the high end in terms of pricing, but not in terms of necessarily performance scaling. And so you're already paying disproportionately more for what you're getting versus several years ago. And this is beyond inflation. This is beyond tariffs. You stack something massive tariffs on top of it, and people who are already kind of struggling to justify a purchase of an expensive GPU. I was looking at RTX fifty nineties, which are supposed to be about a two thousand dollars video card, about a week or two ago. I haven't checked today, but and the cards were typically in the twenty nine hundred to three hundred three thousand dollars.

Rane of Jesus.

Rane of Jesus.

Yeah, that includes on shelves at microcenters, and and some of that's going to be a tariff impact, and some of it is just kind of price creep.

Yeah, that includes on shelves at microcenters, and and some of that's going to be a tariff impact, and some of it is just kind of price creep.

It does kind of feel like, well, to the title of the to the title of the video, it's like the end of affordable computing has already kind of happened, because it doesn't seem and for our less technical listeners, when we say fifty seventy fifty eight fifty night, you're referring to in videographics cards on the consumer side, so the things you put a computer so you can see what's on your monotone also play games. Stephen, sure you love that technical explanation.

It does kind of feel like, well, to the title of the to the title of the video, it's like the end of affordable computing has already kind of happened, because it doesn't seem and for our less technical listeners, when we say fifty seventy fifty eight fifty night, you're referring to in videographics cards on the consumer side, so the things you put a computer so you can see what's on your monotone also play games. Stephen, sure you love that technical explanation.

Yeah, it's great, but.

Yeah, it's great, but.

It's I nearly said three DFX there for a second, aging myself, but it feels like those lower end ones aren't even anywhere near as good as you did a video on this as well, that the fifty seventy, fifty eighty, the lower end or mid range ones just on nowhere near as good as mid range and lower end used to be.

It's I nearly said three DFX there for a second, aging myself, but it feels like those lower end ones aren't even anywhere near as good as you did a video on this as well, that the fifty seventy, fifty eighty, the lower end or mid range ones just on nowhere near as good as mid range and lower end used to be.

Yeah, it's the I think the most understandable version of this in terms of when we were trying to figure out how do we communicate what's happening to people was we came to the word shrinkflation, which people are familiar with, except instead of a bag of chips, where you get.

Yeah, it's the I think the most understandable version of this in terms of when we were trying to figure out how do we communicate what's happening to people was we came to the word shrinkflation, which people are familiar with, except instead of a bag of chips, where you get.

Well, maybe you should explain what it means?

Well, maybe you should explain what it means?

Just sure, yeah, yeah, So the concept being that, and again to breakface this, you know we're experts on hardware, not economy, but like this, this is that it all kind of bleeds together in a way we get familiar with it. But trinkflation being the concept of you go to a store to buy your bag of chips or your bundle of toilet paper or whatever, and you get fewer items for minimally the same cost as it used to be, right, So it sort of disguises the change in value, the cost per unit or whatever that you're getting. Then you apply this to electronics, and the version of it is you buy the video card or the CPU, and maybe you have fewer lower performance relatively speaking, than you would have had in previous generations, while still spending at least the same but likely more. And one of the things that you know, this kind of deviates from the tariff's discussion. But one of the things I'm concerned about is as cost for consumer electronics goes up, especially things like computers, and especially as caused by things like the current tariffs, there's an opening for companies like on Video to push for more of a lack of ownership model. So like they have services where you can play games over the internet streaming kind of like Netflix, that's right, Yeah, And this creates a great opening for these companies to step in and say, we're so sorry, you can't afford our cheapest model five hundred and fifty dollars video card to play games or to render videos, you know, or do three D modeling. But good news, we have something for you, and it's fifty dollars a month and you can use it for you know, this many hours and in between, maybe we'll do ads, or maybe we turn on and off the different services you have access to. And so that's one of my concerns is it's it's another step in furthering that you own nothingness of the current consumer economy.

Just sure, yeah, yeah, So the concept being that, and again to breakface this, you know we're experts on hardware, not economy, but like this, this is that it all kind of bleeds together in a way we get familiar with it. But trinkflation being the concept of you go to a store to buy your bag of chips or your bundle of toilet paper or whatever, and you get fewer items for minimally the same cost as it used to be, right, So it sort of disguises the change in value, the cost per unit or whatever that you're getting. Then you apply this to electronics, and the version of it is you buy the video card or the CPU, and maybe you have fewer lower performance relatively speaking, than you would have had in previous generations, while still spending at least the same but likely more. And one of the things that you know, this kind of deviates from the tariff's discussion. But one of the things I'm concerned about is as cost for consumer electronics goes up, especially things like computers, and especially as caused by things like the current tariffs, there's an opening for companies like on Video to push for more of a lack of ownership model. So like they have services where you can play games over the internet streaming kind of like Netflix, that's right, Yeah, And this creates a great opening for these companies to step in and say, we're so sorry, you can't afford our cheapest model five hundred and fifty dollars video card to play games or to render videos, you know, or do three D modeling. But good news, we have something for you, and it's fifty dollars a month and you can use it for you know, this many hours and in between, maybe we'll do ads, or maybe we turn on and off the different services you have access to. And so that's one of my concerns is it's it's another step in furthering that you own nothingness of the current consumer economy.

Yeah, it kind of feels as well. And you hint it hinted at it earlier as well, where it's like these companies are Microsoft's raising the price of the Xbox, I don't imagine that's coming down. I don't get this. I don't get the sense that Microsoft is going to say, don't worry everyone that everyone on Wall Street, by the way, they the markets love it when we charge less, so we're going to bring this down as an ethical company. It just feels like a that there are the immediate near term effects where its prices are going to increase, but just no one is going to like, no one's going to bring these prices back down at the end of the tariffs. No one really understands what's going on, so they it almost feels like they'll be able to kind of push it under the rug and obfuscate what they've actually done as well.

Yeah, it kind of feels as well. And you hint it hinted at it earlier as well, where it's like these companies are Microsoft's raising the price of the Xbox, I don't imagine that's coming down. I don't get this. I don't get the sense that Microsoft is going to say, don't worry everyone that everyone on Wall Street, by the way, they the markets love it when we charge less, so we're going to bring this down as an ethical company. It just feels like a that there are the immediate near term effects where its prices are going to increase, but just no one is going to like, no one's going to bring these prices back down at the end of the tariffs. No one really understands what's going on, so they it almost feels like they'll be able to kind of push it under the rug and obfuscate what they've actually done as well.

Yeah, I think there's there's a couple of things going on where there's.

Yeah, I think there's there's a couple of things going on where there's.

It's interesting.

It's interesting.

Normally we as in GN we're in a very cynical mindset for a lot of our coverage, and that's just the nature of it. It's not necessarily adversarial, but it's untrusting, i would say, of what companies are saying. And so part of that in this situation is Okay, there are avenues here for companies to get the price increases they've wanted, but they've needed an opportunity to do it. But at the same time, unlike most the other stories we cover, this one is so wide reaching an industry impacting with the sort of sporadic nature of the tariff's application and also the high percentage of them that there are real consequences and it is hurting companies. So you've got this mix right where it's like, we can't be too cynical this time because there are real world impacts, like with height, where they were just going to lose money for computer cases that they sell if they continued to sell them into the US market.

Normally we as in GN we're in a very cynical mindset for a lot of our coverage, and that's just the nature of it. It's not necessarily adversarial, but it's untrusting, i would say, of what companies are saying. And so part of that in this situation is Okay, there are avenues here for companies to get the price increases they've wanted, but they've needed an opportunity to do it. But at the same time, unlike most the other stories we cover, this one is so wide reaching an industry impacting with the sort of sporadic nature of the tariff's application and also the high percentage of them that there are real consequences and it is hurting companies. So you've got this mix right where it's like, we can't be too cynical this time because there are real world impacts, like with height, where they were just going to lose money for computer cases that they sell if they continued to sell them into the US market.

So they've abandoned it.

So they've abandoned it.

They decided we don't need to sell the US, We'll send them somewhere else, which.

They decided we don't need to sell the US, We'll send them somewhere else, which.

Is crazy that's a large part of their business.

Is crazy that's a large part of their business.

Yeah, it was.

Yeah, it was.

I want to say the number the product director Rob Tyler shared during the interview, I think he said sixty five percent revenue was from the US.

I want to say the number the product director Rob Tyler shared during the interview, I think he said sixty five percent revenue was from the US.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But at the same time, you know, so that's a real That's where it's it's not helpful to be cynical because this is a real impact to this company. We've seen their numbers. But then on the flip side of that, back to the cynesism, you look at a company like Microsoft where they've increased not only the cost of their physical hardware, which is impacted by tariffs because it's a lot of it does come from China, but also they've increased the price of their digital downloads like video games, where they're saying they're going to start moving towards an eighty dollars per game model from typically sixty and digital video game downloads are not currently as far as I understand it, are not tariffed.

But at the same time, you know, so that's a real That's where it's it's not helpful to be cynical because this is a real impact to this company. We've seen their numbers. But then on the flip side of that, back to the cynesism, you look at a company like Microsoft where they've increased not only the cost of their physical hardware, which is impacted by tariffs because it's a lot of it does come from China, but also they've increased the price of their digital downloads like video games, where they're saying they're going to start moving towards an eighty dollars per game model from typically sixty and digital video game downloads are not currently as far as I understand it, are not tariffed.

No, in fact, but that's the whole point of digital downloads. That why they hate dollars. You're saving money selling this, right.

No, in fact, but that's the whole point of digital downloads. That why they hate dollars. You're saving money selling this, right.

And I think what's happening here is they have one real reason to increase the price, which is their cost has gone up on the hardware, and that is giving them sort of cover fire to also increase the price of things that haven't gone up. Maybe you could make an argument for inflation affecting development costs or something like this, but packaging it all together and doing it at the same time.

And I think what's happening here is they have one real reason to increase the price, which is their cost has gone up on the hardware, and that is giving them sort of cover fire to also increase the price of things that haven't gone up. Maybe you could make an argument for inflation affecting development costs or something like this, but packaging it all together and doing it at the same time.

I think it's also it sort of exhausts the.

I think it's also it sort of exhausts the.

Consumer's attention where it eases the acceptance of this higher price, because at some point you get hit with this news so frequently, like I just I don't care anymore.

Consumer's attention where it eases the acceptance of this higher price, because at some point you get hit with this news so frequently, like I just I don't care anymore.

I get it.

I get it.

It's all expensive, and you lose the capacity to be mad at a specific company.

It's all expensive, and you lose the capacity to be mad at a specific company.

It's just I truly, I'm learning about this in real time. So Microsoft is raising the price of first party games to seventy nine to ninety nine. That's completely insane. And I think that there is a delineation of cynicism here where you can be cynical about a company. But all of the companies you talked to in this video were very much I mean, you had competitors hanging out with each other to tell you stuff. It feels like there is a marked difference between a company saying yeah, we are Every two minutes a wheel spins and we pay more on staff and having a real reason to do that, and a company just saying, yeah, games are eighty bucks. Now, I don't know what to tell your mate.

It's just I truly, I'm learning about this in real time. So Microsoft is raising the price of first party games to seventy nine to ninety nine. That's completely insane. And I think that there is a delineation of cynicism here where you can be cynical about a company. But all of the companies you talked to in this video were very much I mean, you had competitors hanging out with each other to tell you stuff. It feels like there is a marked difference between a company saying yeah, we are Every two minutes a wheel spins and we pay more on staff and having a real reason to do that, and a company just saying, yeah, games are eighty bucks. Now, I don't know what to tell your mate.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think the companies we spoke to and they range, like I said, from someone with six employees who's a sort of true small business owner like that you think of an American small business owner, and that's exactly the representation you think of all the way up to multi billion dollar publicly traded course hair Components, which makes memory, keyboards, computers. They even have some assembly in the US, and all of them feel the impact in comparable ways, but where they differ is their ability to cope with it. And so I think it's these smaller companies that are going to get hit particularly hard. And as actually came up a couple times in the interviews as well. One of them that we didn't we didn't include was a comment that someone from Coursair made. I think we weren't filming yet, but we were talking about gn and my goal with this wasn't to insert ourselves into this story, so we kind of kept anything about gamers Nexus out of it. But the tariffs impact us too, and one of the comments he made. I asked him who do you think this affects the most? And he said, well, it's guys like you, right, Like, it's small businesses and medium size businesses because the big ones are large enough to have levers to.

I think the companies we spoke to and they range, like I said, from someone with six employees who's a sort of true small business owner like that you think of an American small business owner, and that's exactly the representation you think of all the way up to multi billion dollar publicly traded course hair Components, which makes memory, keyboards, computers. They even have some assembly in the US, and all of them feel the impact in comparable ways, but where they differ is their ability to cope with it. And so I think it's these smaller companies that are going to get hit particularly hard. And as actually came up a couple times in the interviews as well. One of them that we didn't we didn't include was a comment that someone from Coursair made. I think we weren't filming yet, but we were talking about gn and my goal with this wasn't to insert ourselves into this story, so we kind of kept anything about gamers Nexus out of it. But the tariffs impact us too, and one of the comments he made. I asked him who do you think this affects the most? And he said, well, it's guys like you, right, Like, it's small businesses and medium size businesses because the big ones are large enough to have levers to.

Pull, right. And I guess I'm going to ask you one of the most annoying questions that I possibly could, which is, and you do cover this in the video, why can't they just make in America? And I know that the answer is it's going to be very obvious, but still people are gonna want to hear it.

Pull, right. And I guess I'm going to ask you one of the most annoying questions that I possibly could, which is, and you do cover this in the video, why can't they just make in America? And I know that the answer is it's going to be very obvious, but still people are gonna want to hear it.

Sure, Yeah, it's really It is actually a great question. It's obviously very common. It's complicated. So the easiest answer to that, I think if you try to boil it down into kind of like two components. There's cost, which are one's familiar with, and we can kind of get into that. So there's things like labor costs, real estate costs, all this, and there's maybe some greater social discussions to have there with regard to labor cost. But then there's also supply chain and so if we ignore the cost component for a moment and just assume it costs exactly the same amount of money to make it in China or Vietnam or Thailand as it does in the US, which will cost which it doesn't. It's the global manufacturing average cost in terms of wage per hour is, according to Courser's CEO and our interview, is two to four dollars per hour. Because it's obviously not even close. Yeah, and so if we just assume it's equal though for take conversation, the new challenge is in China in particular, but just that part of Asia in general, there's already a huge factory presence. They have the tooling, they have the people, they have supply chain, and so what that really means is you can go to Wachambai and Shenzhen right now and you can go talk to someone to get tell them you have this brilliant idea for a new electronic device. You can have someone designed the PCB, you can have someone print the PCB. The printing can be delivered same day for a prototype. And you can also start sourcing factories for the capacitors, the inductors, the semiconductors, the mos vats, the shell or case if there's going to be one. All of that can happen in the same spot and it can all be sourced from sort of the same, say fifty mile radius for the most part, and that doesn't exist in the US. And if you want to make a motherboard, as an example, that count in the video in the US. We didn't get too deep into it in the video, but there's probably ten to thirty major component complete component suppliers for that board. So if you want to make that motherboard in the US, which your CPU and your GPU go into, it's sort of the brain stem of the computer. You bring that over here. And what you might have first is the assembly line. It's an automated line. It's primarily done by machine these days. So you bring over the SMT line, the Service Amount Technolology line. That line has machines that, first of all, are made all over the world. Yeah, so that's already a different thing. And then those machines have reels of components like capacitors. The capacitors come from a factory in China, so you'd have to bring that factory over. That factory to make the capacitors has factories, so it uses factories for maybe ceramics or for aluminum or steel or copper whatever.

Sure, Yeah, it's really It is actually a great question. It's obviously very common. It's complicated. So the easiest answer to that, I think if you try to boil it down into kind of like two components. There's cost, which are one's familiar with, and we can kind of get into that. So there's things like labor costs, real estate costs, all this, and there's maybe some greater social discussions to have there with regard to labor cost. But then there's also supply chain and so if we ignore the cost component for a moment and just assume it costs exactly the same amount of money to make it in China or Vietnam or Thailand as it does in the US, which will cost which it doesn't. It's the global manufacturing average cost in terms of wage per hour is, according to Courser's CEO and our interview, is two to four dollars per hour. Because it's obviously not even close. Yeah, and so if we just assume it's equal though for take conversation, the new challenge is in China in particular, but just that part of Asia in general, there's already a huge factory presence. They have the tooling, they have the people, they have supply chain, and so what that really means is you can go to Wachambai and Shenzhen right now and you can go talk to someone to get tell them you have this brilliant idea for a new electronic device. You can have someone designed the PCB, you can have someone print the PCB. The printing can be delivered same day for a prototype. And you can also start sourcing factories for the capacitors, the inductors, the semiconductors, the mos vats, the shell or case if there's going to be one. All of that can happen in the same spot and it can all be sourced from sort of the same, say fifty mile radius for the most part, and that doesn't exist in the US. And if you want to make a motherboard, as an example, that count in the video in the US. We didn't get too deep into it in the video, but there's probably ten to thirty major component complete component suppliers for that board. So if you want to make that motherboard in the US, which your CPU and your GPU go into, it's sort of the brain stem of the computer. You bring that over here. And what you might have first is the assembly line. It's an automated line. It's primarily done by machine these days. So you bring over the SMT line, the Service Amount Technolology line. That line has machines that, first of all, are made all over the world. Yeah, so that's already a different thing. And then those machines have reels of components like capacitors. The capacitors come from a factory in China, so you'd have to bring that factory over. That factory to make the capacitors has factories, so it uses factories for maybe ceramics or for aluminum or steel or copper whatever.

They may use.

They may use.

Copper coil for inductors, you have someone doing the winding for the coil. For things like going power supplies and all of that is downchain factories. So this one motherboard quote unquote factory, what they're doing is effectively equivalent to someone assemblying a pre built computer and a pre built computer assembly plant in the US like Lenovo, they're doing the same thing. They're putting all the parts together, but they're buying them from elsewhere, and that's fine, that's how it works. But to just bring that over, it's not something you can flip a switch on.

Copper coil for inductors, you have someone doing the winding for the coil. For things like going power supplies and all of that is downchain factories. So this one motherboard quote unquote factory, what they're doing is effectively equivalent to someone assemblying a pre built computer and a pre built computer assembly plant in the US like Lenovo, they're doing the same thing. They're putting all the parts together, but they're buying them from elsewhere, and that's fine, that's how it works. But to just bring that over, it's not something you can flip a switch on.

And it seems like a big part of it as well is that China already has this infrastructure to manufacture these things. To your point that they have someone who can do the prototype that they have someone I don't know, like I assume they were like screw factories and things that don't exist in America, or if they do, they are geographically inefficient in comparison.

And it seems like a big part of it as well is that China already has this infrastructure to manufacture these things. To your point that they have someone who can do the prototype that they have someone I don't know, like I assume they were like screw factories and things that don't exist in America, or if they do, they are geographically inefficient in comparison.

Yeah, I think that's a big part of it is there are factories in the US that can do various things. I mean, certainly you get down to physical hardware like screws. I'm absolutely certain there's factories that make screws in the US. There's factories that make cardboard boxes in the US, but like you said, these things are not on the same block. And while that can be reconciled, making a company eat an extra cost is basically impossible. And so if the approach is to do some form of taxes, it would have to be so extreme that there really has no other choice but to start building factories in the US. But the problem then is that this takes years. So some of them hey, M right, yeah, it just it just takes forever to start building.

Yeah, I think that's a big part of it is there are factories in the US that can do various things. I mean, certainly you get down to physical hardware like screws. I'm absolutely certain there's factories that make screws in the US. There's factories that make cardboard boxes in the US, but like you said, these things are not on the same block. And while that can be reconciled, making a company eat an extra cost is basically impossible. And so if the approach is to do some form of taxes, it would have to be so extreme that there really has no other choice but to start building factories in the US. But the problem then is that this takes years. So some of them hey, M right, yeah, it just it just takes forever to start building.

I mean, then if.

I mean, then if.

It's also just it's an enormous amount of money, you can't just have it, you know, you need to plan for it. So so that's a big challenge.

It's also just it's an enormous amount of money, you can't just have it, you know, you need to plan for it. So so that's a big challenge.

It kind of feels like that on the cynical side, I mean, it kind of feels like it is the case where it's so much of our economy is based on just cheap labor that we've outsourced, are entire manufacturing to other countries that and it all relies upon a certain kind of discount labor that just doesn't exist and probably can't exist in America.

It kind of feels like that on the cynical side, I mean, it kind of feels like it is the case where it's so much of our economy is based on just cheap labor that we've outsourced, are entire manufacturing to other countries that and it all relies upon a certain kind of discount labor that just doesn't exist and probably can't exist in America.

I think it not only can't exist in America, but the amount of available people is probably not high enough to create that many manufacturing jobs, especially instantaneously. One thing that's interesting, though, I don't think I've really spoken in anywhere about this side, but something that's interesting with contract manufacturing, especially in China is, at least for the factories we've toured and visited over the years, a lot of the contract factories they shut down for Chinese New Year for a while. It's it's their biggest holiday, so similar to Christmas in the US, you have several weeks off for a lot of people, and there it lasts pretty long. The one factory work with and we've toured, they shut down for nearly a month for Chinese New Year. And when I want to ask them, when it was my first time over there, you know, I asked the factory owner. It was basically, hey, no, absolutely, no disrespect, don't take this throng way. I'm just curious why such a long time, Like as an American, right, you come from work culture in terms of just you're always at work for four weeks is a big stretch of time. Doesn't that effect to your production? And he said something really interesting to me where that factor in particular, a lot of their laborers come from all over in China. China is very large, and they come from all these different provinces, and so they sort of migrate out to do the work locally at the factory, and then they might go back and maybe they're going back to work at home, or they just bring the money home and spend time with the family. And the interesting thing there is that kind of opened my eyes to how can a place like sheen Gen exist where almost everything you need to make a product is in like one city. That seems insane, right, Like the amount of people that you would need for that is crazy. And I guess that's part of it. And I don't you know, obviously don't claim to be an expert in it, but just from personal experiences talking to people and visiting these places, these are kind of the pieces that have really clicked for me to help me better understand how manufacturing works.

I think it not only can't exist in America, but the amount of available people is probably not high enough to create that many manufacturing jobs, especially instantaneously. One thing that's interesting, though, I don't think I've really spoken in anywhere about this side, but something that's interesting with contract manufacturing, especially in China is, at least for the factories we've toured and visited over the years, a lot of the contract factories they shut down for Chinese New Year for a while. It's it's their biggest holiday, so similar to Christmas in the US, you have several weeks off for a lot of people, and there it lasts pretty long. The one factory work with and we've toured, they shut down for nearly a month for Chinese New Year. And when I want to ask them, when it was my first time over there, you know, I asked the factory owner. It was basically, hey, no, absolutely, no disrespect, don't take this throng way. I'm just curious why such a long time, Like as an American, right, you come from work culture in terms of just you're always at work for four weeks is a big stretch of time. Doesn't that effect to your production? And he said something really interesting to me where that factor in particular, a lot of their laborers come from all over in China. China is very large, and they come from all these different provinces, and so they sort of migrate out to do the work locally at the factory, and then they might go back and maybe they're going back to work at home, or they just bring the money home and spend time with the family. And the interesting thing there is that kind of opened my eyes to how can a place like sheen Gen exist where almost everything you need to make a product is in like one city. That seems insane, right, Like the amount of people that you would need for that is crazy. And I guess that's part of it. And I don't you know, obviously don't claim to be an expert in it, but just from personal experiences talking to people and visiting these places, these are kind of the pieces that have really clicked for me to help me better understand how manufacturing works.

Yeah, it's just every time I think about what these tariffs are meant to do, I feel insane because it's like, Okay, we're going to charge more for things to the people shipping them in, which will cause them to build things in America which they can't do but they should. Like that feels like most of the logic here, but we'll just factories will spread out to the ground like weeds. Like it's just bizarre.

Yeah, it's just every time I think about what these tariffs are meant to do, I feel insane because it's like, Okay, we're going to charge more for things to the people shipping them in, which will cause them to build things in America which they can't do but they should. Like that feels like most of the logic here, but we'll just factories will spread out to the ground like weeds. Like it's just bizarre.

Yeah, and even the companies that do make stuff here. This is what's interesting too, is that.

Yeah, and even the companies that do make stuff here. This is what's interesting too, is that.

Yeah, because you spoke to one an actual manufacturing company in America.

Yeah, because you spoke to one an actual manufacturing company in America.

That's right.

That's right.

Yeah, So we spoke to three companies that we spoke to have sort of different levels of manufacturing here. So there's one of them. The one you're probably referring to is called Proto Case and they stamp cases, so they assemble servers and network attached storage devices and then they can stamp their own cases for those they take the medals, they put them in a big press with their own tooling and they press it and then they can kind of bend the metal into a server case. So they do some manufacturing here and they do a lot of it in Canada. The other two companies we spoke to are a different type of manufacturing where it's assembly, and actually course here to their credit has assembly as well, so I guess three and the assembly groups they so CyberPower PC makes pre built computers mostly for gaming, and they employ hundreds of people in the city of Industry California area to assemble computers. And so those people take about eight to ten components that CyberPower does not make. They buy them from other companies and they assemble them right into a computer. And it's really that straightforward. But this is effectively a factory job. It's an assembly job, and the PC that's made ultimately it's branded a CyberPower PC. But just like any PC on the market Dell HP as US, it doesn't matter. They don't make the CPU, they don't make the GPU that's probably Intel and Video AMD. They often don't make the cooler, the storage device, the memory. So all this stuff, yeah, it's got to come from other people. And for the most part, the places it ends up coming from are going to be China, Vietnam, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan I don't think I named yet, and some stuff from Japan, but that's kind of the that's where the stuff comes from, and then they assemble it in the US. But those companies that assemble the computers in the US, they still get hit by tariffs because they're bringing stuff in to complete the products. But what's interesting is it's almost like the components like cps and GPS. You can think of them as raw materials where the products the computer can't exist without those raw materials, but they're not blanket exempted as raw materials.

Yeah, So we spoke to three companies that we spoke to have sort of different levels of manufacturing here. So there's one of them. The one you're probably referring to is called Proto Case and they stamp cases, so they assemble servers and network attached storage devices and then they can stamp their own cases for those they take the medals, they put them in a big press with their own tooling and they press it and then they can kind of bend the metal into a server case. So they do some manufacturing here and they do a lot of it in Canada. The other two companies we spoke to are a different type of manufacturing where it's assembly, and actually course here to their credit has assembly as well, so I guess three and the assembly groups they so CyberPower PC makes pre built computers mostly for gaming, and they employ hundreds of people in the city of Industry California area to assemble computers. And so those people take about eight to ten components that CyberPower does not make. They buy them from other companies and they assemble them right into a computer. And it's really that straightforward. But this is effectively a factory job. It's an assembly job, and the PC that's made ultimately it's branded a CyberPower PC. But just like any PC on the market Dell HP as US, it doesn't matter. They don't make the CPU, they don't make the GPU that's probably Intel and Video AMD. They often don't make the cooler, the storage device, the memory. So all this stuff, yeah, it's got to come from other people. And for the most part, the places it ends up coming from are going to be China, Vietnam, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan I don't think I named yet, and some stuff from Japan, but that's kind of the that's where the stuff comes from, and then they assemble it in the US. But those companies that assemble the computers in the US, they still get hit by tariffs because they're bringing stuff in to complete the products. But what's interesting is it's almost like the components like cps and GPS. You can think of them as raw materials where the products the computer can't exist without those raw materials, but they're not blanket exempted as raw materials.

Yeah, and it feels like you can't actually exempt any particular industry because of the amountifold different parts. I think Lewis Russman made the point as well, where it's customers are going to get pissed off about the price increases, and it's kind of like, well, you're the one buying these things that will make with Chinese pots. It's not like you can avoid that, right.

Yeah, and it feels like you can't actually exempt any particular industry because of the amountifold different parts. I think Lewis Russman made the point as well, where it's customers are going to get pissed off about the price increases, and it's kind of like, well, you're the one buying these things that will make with Chinese pots. It's not like you can avoid that, right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I mean that that was an excellent point by him, where he's he's a repair shop, and as he was saying, for the device to even get to him, someone else has to exist before him, and that's going to be the customer buying from the original manufacturer. If the original manufacturer chooses to make their products let's say entirely in Detroit, and they use parts and time from Detroit, than Lewis the repair shop will probably buy replacement parts from Detroit, right, because that's that's where they come from. And so it's yeah, I think like him just as much as the assembly plants that put a product together the consumer's familiar with. They're affected by the same thing, which is there's force is so much larger than you. You can't you don't have the option to move it because it's not yours, and so what do you do?

No, I mean that that was an excellent point by him, where he's he's a repair shop, and as he was saying, for the device to even get to him, someone else has to exist before him, and that's going to be the customer buying from the original manufacturer. If the original manufacturer chooses to make their products let's say entirely in Detroit, and they use parts and time from Detroit, than Lewis the repair shop will probably buy replacement parts from Detroit, right, because that's that's where they come from. And so it's yeah, I think like him just as much as the assembly plants that put a product together the consumer's familiar with. They're affected by the same thing, which is there's force is so much larger than you. You can't you don't have the option to move it because it's not yours, and so what do you do?

Right?

Right?

Yeah, one thing as we come to the end here, one thing that did strike me is how did you get all of these competing companies to actually hang out and talk to you quite candidly at the same time.

Yeah, one thing as we come to the end here, one thing that did strike me is how did you get all of these competing companies to actually hang out and talk to you quite candidly at the same time.

Yeah, it's I've known a lot of the people in that video.

Yeah, it's I've known a lot of the people in that video.

I've known for.

I've known for.

Pretty close to some of them, like twelve to fourteen years. Fortunately, like we've run across each other at conventions a lot, and so for like the backstory, I guess Sorry Power and Irapower two competing pre built companies, and I pained to them both and I was like.

Pretty close to some of them, like twelve to fourteen years. Fortunately, like we've run across each other at conventions a lot, and so for like the backstory, I guess Sorry Power and Irapower two competing pre built companies, and I pained to them both and I was like.

Hey, it would.

Hey, it would.

It would be it would really send a message if you guys agree with each other on this particular issue. I think it would help people understand that it is impacting both of you in similar ways, because these are companies that they're fighting for the same market share for the same customers, and you know, if you can get them together in a room and they were even sharing numbers with each other, how many employees they have, how many units per year they make, Like this is crazy information to share, but I think it was. It was sort of a solidarity moment where the read on the situation I had was the companies were all looking at this as this is our opportunity to try and explain why the prices are going to go up, and whether or not it's for legitimate reasons or for the more cynical reasons we've discussed to them. It was an opportunity to talk about that, and I think our timing was a big part of that, where we booked our tickets as soon as the pause went into effect on some of the international tariffs, or actually.

It would be it would really send a message if you guys agree with each other on this particular issue. I think it would help people understand that it is impacting both of you in similar ways, because these are companies that they're fighting for the same market share for the same customers, and you know, if you can get them together in a room and they were even sharing numbers with each other, how many employees they have, how many units per year they make, Like this is crazy information to share, but I think it was. It was sort of a solidarity moment where the read on the situation I had was the companies were all looking at this as this is our opportunity to try and explain why the prices are going to go up, and whether or not it's for legitimate reasons or for the more cynical reasons we've discussed to them. It was an opportunity to talk about that, and I think our timing was a big part of that, where we booked our tickets as soon as the pause went into effect on some of the international tariffs, or actually.

It was just before that.

It was just before that.

It was like a day before that, so we booked the tickets a day before the pause, right around when they went into effect. We landed, and then some of these changes like pauses and exemptions and non exemptions were happening already, but because of the chaos and that four day window, I think everyone was willing to talk to us on record because nobody knew what was going on.

It was like a day before that, so we booked the tickets a day before the pause, right around when they went into effect. We landed, and then some of these changes like pauses and exemptions and non exemptions were happening already, but because of the chaos and that four day window, I think everyone was willing to talk to us on record because nobody knew what was going on.

And just to close us off, you mentioned it clost a ton of money and a ton of time, how long and how much money?

And just to close us off, you mentioned it clost a ton of money and a ton of time, how long and how much money?

Roughly?

Roughly?

Because this was I do not watch videos at these Lanth Casey Casey friend of the show case Kagawa knows this well. But I watched the whole thing like how much like roughly, I want to make the video?

Because this was I do not watch videos at these Lanth Casey Casey friend of the show case Kagawa knows this well. But I watched the whole thing like how much like roughly, I want to make the video?

You wook to make the video.

You wook to make the video.

So it was probably.

So it was probably.

If you count my time at zero dollars, then we should have been over ten grand in total costs. So that's travel plus editing time. There's a lot of editing time because we had over eight hours of footage and the way it kind of came together and it was interesting where you know, we got the news down the wire about the new The word the government has officially named them is reciprocal tariffs. So when those came out, that was when we started booking the flights. And like I said, it was right before the pause on some of them, and so we booked the flights with no return flight. It's a twelve hour twelve hours away till we got on that first plane. We had the first hotel booked and then vitally and I'm a camera operator, we flew out there and we played it day by day and for you know, I used the hotel I knew, so it was basically like, hey, yeah, we need to extend one more day, you know. And and then we just kept booking them based on who I could get in touch with. And I was just on the phone constantly calling every company I knew, and they're they're kind of on the you know, they're either in San Francisco or they're in LA for most of them.

If you count my time at zero dollars, then we should have been over ten grand in total costs. So that's travel plus editing time. There's a lot of editing time because we had over eight hours of footage and the way it kind of came together and it was interesting where you know, we got the news down the wire about the new The word the government has officially named them is reciprocal tariffs. So when those came out, that was when we started booking the flights. And like I said, it was right before the pause on some of them, and so we booked the flights with no return flight. It's a twelve hour twelve hours away till we got on that first plane. We had the first hotel booked and then vitally and I'm a camera operator, we flew out there and we played it day by day and for you know, I used the hotel I knew, so it was basically like, hey, yeah, we need to extend one more day, you know. And and then we just kept booking them based on who I could get in touch with. And I was just on the phone constantly calling every company I knew, and they're they're kind of on the you know, they're either in San Francisco or they're in LA for most of them.

Steven, it's been such a pleasure having you on the show. Where can people find you?

Steven, it's been such a pleasure having you on the show. Where can people find you?

They can check out gamersaxis dot net if they want the written adaptation of videos, or the YouTube channel. Gamers and Axus is where everything goes, and.

They can check out gamersaxis dot net if they want the written adaptation of videos, or the YouTube channel. Gamers and Axus is where everything goes, and.

You can find me on the internet. You were listening to Better Offline. Of course, following this will be an extremely old line of the I swear all update one day. Thank you for listening, and Steven, thank you for joining us.

You can find me on the internet. You were listening to Better Offline. Of course, following this will be an extremely old line of the I swear all update one day. Thank you for listening, and Steven, thank you for joining us.

Thank you, thank you for listening to Better Offline.

Thank you, thank you for listening to Better Offline.

The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme songs, Metosowski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects at Mattasowski dot com, M A T T O. S O W s ki dot com. You can email me at easy at better Offline dot com or visit better Offline dot com to find more podcast links and of course my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat dot where's youreaed dot at to visit the discord, and go to our slash.

The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme songs, Metosowski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects at Mattasowski dot com, M A T T O. S O W s ki dot com. You can email me at easy at better Offline dot com or visit better Offline dot com to find more podcast links and of course my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat dot where's youreaed dot at to visit the discord, and go to our slash.

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