Better OfflineWelcome to Radio Better Offline, a tech talk radio show recorded out of iHeartRadio's studio in New York City.
In this episode, Ed Zitron is joined by famed “digital prophet” David “Shingy” Shing, who calls himself a “creative omnivore,” to talk about adtech, being a "digital prophet," and society's attraction to nostalgia.
https://www.shingy.com/
Vote for Better Offline's "Man Who Killed Google Search" as the best business podcast episode in this year's Webby's! Open until April 17! Vote today!
https://vote.webbyawards.com/PublicVoting#/2025/podcasts/individual-episode/business
---
LINKS: https://www.tinyurl.com/betterofflinelinks
Newsletter: https://www.wheresyoured.at/
Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/BetterOffline/
Discord: chat.wheresyoured.at
Ed's Socials:
https://www.instagram.com/edzitron
Also media, Hi, Mimo, moo ed zitron. This is better offline. We're in iHeart Radio studio in beautiful New York City today. I am joined by a man who in twenty fourteen roast to fame after becoming AOL's digital profit. He joins me in the studio today, David Shing, best known as Shingy. David, Hey, ed, how are you, mate, sing? I am fantastic an intro. Oh yeah, this is the most normal show in tech. What are you up to these days? Shingy?
Great question. There's three things. I'm primarily up to them. Okay, I'm out speaking and educating, that's right, what I'm known for. I also have a creative house, nice that started around pandemic time.
What's the creative house too?
It does everything from iconography all the way through the strategy, so all the way through psychography. You happened to be wearing a brand Onion T shirt. Yeah, somebody designed that, dude.
Okay, so a design thing cool.
And then the other flip side is an advisory practice. That's cool, and it's institutional advisory as well as small startups, which has really been research for me, which has been amazing.
Yeah, as a fellow consultant with the podcast. It's always good to meet another one. So you it's been a while since you rose to fame. What kind of happened? What kind of happened? Because you I remember I was in the Bay Area at the time when I saw you you arise on MSNBC, and then just went and did other things. I had to go and make some mistakes in my life. I guess what was it you did today?
Well, so I ran thirteen countries for them. I ran the media in marketing for them right throughout Europe.
But what did that actually entail?
I ran thirteen countries with multi millions?
But what did you do each day?
Because I launched I launched a series of websites, and I launched a series of ad platforms, and I helped change the iconography for AOL. And when you build a new brand and you don't have any budget to support it, right, you have to think about a way to be in the marketplace.
So I created a PERSONA wait, did you not have like much budget?
Oh?
Yeah, we did, but not in Europe. No, not in Europe.
No, Because what happened in a big company, you could probably appreciate this if one division performs poorly, everyone suffers, right, So if you're not close to the sun, you're not going to get all the budget.
It's just how it works. It's funny because your whole thing, and I don't say this is an ensult, got kind of flattenedto that one picture of you with the kind of yeah because and then there was that Guardian interview. It's like you drew a zebra. It said you showed someone AOL a picture of a zebra zebra pant pants. Possibly it's just I was wearing them. You're wearing a nice right. Yeah. It's it's funny because you've become somewhat of like a like a I want to say, like a character within meme, a meme. I think memes fair, but it's more.
Than character's probably a little underrated.
Yeah, it's just because you have a real job, it seems, and you have this whole time, despite the fact that I've been told, like, oh, this guy just like shows up and says he's the digital profit and I was genuinely curious about like, I.
Never really told anybody the mystery. I want to hear that and the magic of it still replicates today. So I would go in and get interviews, get audiences with brands we could never be in front.
Of like what like what brand? Like? Yeah, what kind of brands? Nike? Nike? Why couldn't al get in front of them?
Well, they could, but they're going to just sell ads. I'm trying to sell innovation on top of the ads, so much bigger than we would ever be able to do.
And what would that innovation manifest? That's what were you selling to Nike? For example? I know this is just an example.
We invented an ad called Devil, which was like this incredible new magazine esque style ad takeover right, that the IAB ended up picking up and running with. So we were just building things that were radically different than spots and dots that sales teams are selling.
Right, So how do you feel about AI? How are you feeling about all this? Because look, you were part of a hype cycle. So end of twenty fourteen is like it was like a very hype driven time. It's like the sexiest time in indiego Go and Kickstarter land. I would say, back then, what do you think of AI? How do you feel about it? Do you think it's a bubble? No?
No, Well, it's also been around for forty fifty.
Years, right, so generative AI specifically.
What do I think about that?
Yeah?
Sure, think it's magical. Really Yeah, it hallucinates occasionally, but I think it's great because if I can extend a background without having to go reshoot it, that's pretty good and I'm able to change it out.
Can't do that though.
Yeah, you're not been you know, haven't checked out fire Fly or.
I have I read your sub stack. I do read your blog. It's just right now as a hype man. I don't mean that derisively. I mean that, like your job is ostensibly hype. Right now, it feels like there is this marketing dissonance between in Firefly, which I'm aware and I know there are lots of people who listen to the showho are going to be very angry at me that we're even talking about Adobe AI. Calm down, everyone, it's shingy. Allow him in. But it's it feels like you've got this massive business failure happening in the background, billions of dollars burned from Open AI, but you've got some utility. How do you balance that?
Like, how do you in what characterizational you said?
Generally they so, well, I'm talking about the fact that you're hyping up something that is unsustainable right now, which bit I mean the generative AI features of Firefly, for example, the same.
Is it not sustainable?
Well, because open AI burns five billion dollars a year, they still haven't worked out any profitability for any of these models. Yes, but fireflies run on generitive models.
Yeah, right, and they help create ad performances sure at scale. Right, So at some point in time these things level.
Out when because that's the thing, like the amount when there's demand for better right, I just feel like we're a little lost within the general of AI conversation right as an industry. Right, And I'm curious you see, do you play with Runway. I've played with Sora a bit. Yeah, I just think I found Runway to be really fucking mediocre.
Well, there's a dystopian to it, which is definitely that shine will come off and that production is going to be pretty amazing. Single single tool that does one thing no good, right, but a tool that allows you to master audio without an engineer pretty amazing.
Yeah, But does that exist yet?
Yeah?
It does. With voice Riverside is not good.
Riverside is a podcasting platform.
And they have AI mastering on it.
God bless them, but they're not just doing mastering. So you can upload something to something like voice AI and it's absolutely designed for mastering, right.
But there is this massive financial problem at the side of this, that this stuff is burning so much money. And I guess you could have on device models, but that's nowhere near what I just I don't know how you couch these two things.
Supply and demand. I mean, there's a massive supply for new ways of creating different tools, and the supply cycle is incredibly wide. It feels like, well, you know, back in the web one dot ohs cycles, right, but now it has different tools that are much faster build.
But the demand isn't there I think. I mean, I did a piece a few months ago and weeks ago Jesus Christ time dilation where it was like co pilot has like eleven million monthly active users, okay, which is pretty pispor and that's Microsoft's I am hearing that there are various companies like eleven Labs which are kind of leveling out as far as user base goes. What happens if this doesn't get much bigger?
It just continues to do what everything else does. It tails off and becomes a niche, which is okay, you think, so, yeah, it's totally okay.
So you seem quite eye on it. So what are you using? Then? Talk to me about the tools you use? The obvious.
I mean, I think chat's interesting. I think that Claude is interesting to help you do draft one. So those tools are fine. I think sora is it seems interesting. But Dystopian Runaway works okay if you can actually model it correctly.
When you say dystopian, what do you mean over glossy?
Really hard to understand. Depth of field like it's if you are going to be a deep practitioner, you know, the sort of thing you want to try and visualize, that can be very difficult. And I think that's kind of the challenge today is these tools do remarkable.
Amount of work.
It's a matter of can you get it to do the work that you wanted to do without taking more time than actually doing it physically. It's software, So it's just software, and it's and it's curious, but it's not it. Here's what I'm am saying. I'm seeing a consolidation of tools saying here's one tool that you log into and it does all these things for you, but it does all of them only, Okay, so you have to splinter off and find something that does just what you want it to do.
So focused, and you know.
Better at book writing then maybe stories, or better that draw oring than maybe paining a landscape. I mean these articulations that become really just splinters of a certain technique today or crud into one thing. And I don't think anything does a great job. Words are great.
I think the agent if I agree on the words side, I don't think well as at and you're still your points made. But it's way better than me as a first edit copywriter. So yeah, but that's a skill issue, shingy, like you could get better by writing more. You could. It's good, Like do you is your substack chat GPT written or claud written? No, but it's but it's you know.
I think what's interesting about the tools I don't want to have to necessarily become very technical when I'm wanting to shoot an idea of a landscape or something. By the way, I'm only using my own images and only purposely not using anything generative. It's all like photos from my own photo library, right, no stock, no, no generative because until it's actually really good. As much as I'm an advocate for it, I'm a better believer in craft than I am. Then so can these tools like mastering for example of sound love that love that for a tool because I have no clue how to bring eqs up. I have no clue how to bring in any depth within a voice, and no clue on that.
So God bless, and do you use it for that? Like you actually use it? What do you use for masking?
I use voice? I think it's voice AI. I've used a couple of them. And by the way, when you skim it, you know, when I'm looking for something, it's typically at urgency other levels alone, and I can't seem to bring them up and over peaky, and then I use the service comes back it's too peaky or it's got too much base. I don't know, right, So it's really about can I use things tools that help get to a better artifact than the actual tools that I can use, Because democratization of tools means that everything is kind of flatlined. So I'm looking for things to become really interesting. I don't necessarily I don't necessarily think that the quality of the end result is higher resolution enough, but it sure beats squeaky markers and poof pads he grew up with. So the efficiency of getting ideas out.
Love that, right, But is it craft if you're using generative AI?
Yes, I think it is. I think it's I think an artist can use any tool. This just happens to be one of them today.
Right now.
You talked about value though, you talked about this thing seemed to be bleeding money, et cetera, et cetera, all of them. Yeah, God bless, what do you mean, God bless? I mean that's that's going to be their problem at some point in time. They're going to have to factor that out and figure out a model that everyone's trying to, you know, generate these tools that can be the panacea, and then they're going to make money on it at some point. Yeah maybe, yes, See, it's just not all the tools he had to make money, you know that.
Sure, But none of the tools currently make money. Like that's that's kind of thing. It just it feels like an atypical hype psycle in that having lived through enough of these now myself, I'm a little bit younger than you. I've never seen one that was just burning cash like this and it, but I've never seen one with more nor have I ever seen one with more disconnection between the utility and the marketing hype. It feels like they are promising more than ever. Yeah, and we're in this weird, distant area where it's like no one really knows what's going to happen.
Well, you know, I live in the space of ads still, so from an ad perspective, there's no shortage of demand.
But for what though? Ads? Yeah, sure, but demand for ads? But what about generative? Like where does general vay I fit into this?
You saying creative but yeah, helping to create the ads. I think the ads that are created with Generative are pretty rubbish. Yeah, but the truth is there's a demand for lots of ads because of just sheer audience growth. But the reality is that efficiency of can you make ads cheaper? That's a that's a conundrum.
Because is Generative I doing that?
I don't think so. I think they're doing some of it. Perhaps maybe they're doing an interesting background that would have taken taking you up, but it can't.
It's not the whole thing.
And by the way, if you and I would look at a bunch of ads right now and try and pick with their AI or not AI, you would I think nine out of ten would get We would know that it's written by.
A There's like an uncanny Valley feel to them.
It's got a dystopian I guess. It's kind of feels a little bit like and we've gone way beyond hallucination. We've gone into this kind of you just know, you can just see it and feel it. It's cold, it's weird.
And the funny thing is this, I think what you're talking about is not hallucination. It is actually a in accurate depiction of something. But it's too It has this kind of sheen to it does feels like the movie AI. Yeah, ironically, it has said that it came off my head. I'm like, shit, I'm stupid anyway.
And the number of frames a second seem off.
There's something very there's too much like I.
Completely agree with you, but it's also where I see those sort of things used in more kind of tunny jads, like things that are just trying to get a lot of these creatives saturating the marketplace, which ultimately if we're not careful, we'll make ads more expensive, meaning to get to ed the human at the end of it. If you if you've now just become completely oblivious or ignoring ads that feel like they're aied because and the sack gets figured out, right, you'll become blind of these AI ads.
So to get to us even going to be harder. So this is the weird thing right now. Ads and AI don't seem to have touched that much. Can I say this because there's a company so you heard a perplexity too. So Perplexity is allegedly Hayden Field that the NBC reported this last year. They're apparently looking for like fifty five dollars CPM on what platform on their search net their search platform. Okay, but you've not really seen ADS and AI touch like even Google's AI search they just did ads.
No, I think perplexity if you were to give it a prompt and it recommended something that you were looking for. Yeah, I assume you're looking for a piece of gear and they recommend a piece of gear versus these other ten pieces of gear. Ah, that review is probably in their eyes an ad, right, you know what I mean? It's not it may not be a display ad as we but they're not.
They're not doing ads yet.
It's just you know, but I'm saying they could be in the description. Sure are they formally not doing ads or they haven't.
They haven't started yet because they want to.
And when they do those ads, they will be subtle like that, they will be within descriptions, they will be contextually relevant to that person in terms of the totality of a story, not just a display.
I'm just wanting I think it will be No, no, no, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just wondering how they pull it off. Because the whole thing with hallucinations, you can't predict where an AD is going to appear or what it's going to appear next to.
And I think that if it's with with if it's with words, the context is wider.
You think. If it's with voice, they're not going to voice as not.
You know, it's like it's just a wider context. Though, So let's let's just stream for a second. If you're able to do that, at least you've got a wider concept of what the story is versus a display out around.
But I mean, I mean just like, practically speaking, if you vomit out a bunch of text which may rip off a journalist outlet, or to how do you like I Perhaps the I need to actually ask you the question, why do you think that ADS and AI really haven't touched it? Because chat GPT doesn't monetize with that, Lexity is thinking about it, haven't Google AI has only just started considering it. Do you think it's a generative side like you've been in the AD slot for that?
I guess it depends on depends on which place you want to sit in that question. Are you talking about me as somebody going to the tool to use it?
Now? I'm wondering why the companies themselves have been hesitant? No, no, no, hang on, let me let me.
Let's get back to the context real quick so I can understand the framing. Is it? Is it me going to Perplexity's website to be able to use its tool, and it's folding in ADS in the results of me?
I mean, I mean a generative I mean on a grander perspective, like taking it away from just like the user right now, You've been in ads for a long time, however, so I think, why do you think they if it was like ads to ad tech has traditionally been very quick to adopt stuff. But they will rush. They rush to fucking micat, They rushed to everything fast. Remember that. But it's AI. They've generative AI, generative search Chat GPT.
Because I just don't think it's I would I would say that it's just a little naive. And I have seen you mean, I have seen ads that are directed by so, scripted by AI, shot by humans. Sure, and they look there's just something missing. And because that litmus test of is it warm and after does it feel like something that is a motive it misses? Sure, it is going to get a lot better. Man, This is not even a debate, but.
I mean it absolutely is a debate. I mean I will absolutely debate the shit out of this. The training data required to make saua better does not exist, even if you took every video ever taken there. Adobe is paying people to take video. But my question was actually really way more specific, which is, you have been in ad tech for a long time. Everything else has been in like generative AI platforms are not integrating ads as a monetization mechanis well, and why do you think that is.
Because the presentation layer of that, the actual ability to generate something that feels like it's not coal specifically, and I've said it a few times now, is not up to snuff. Everything else in the background that is actually using lots of big data to be able to represent the right type of context to you. Today we will call that AI is in play. So I think there's a marriage between what's going on in the back Haman along and the presentation layer of that, to be honest, is terrible. I agre in comparison, I agree, but maybe they need to be more specific. It feels like ad tech is they will do the generative side. There's tons of ad tech platforms that will generate like and you see those the specs, or you've seen the ads too. You've seen the shiny musclier person.
Oh god, yeah, the horrifying like beautiful people with like nineteen pack. I mean more on a practical level of you were a AOWA, you were inspiring them to do more things. It feels like when it comes to the platforms themselves, putting aside the actual ads themselves, I mean, it doesn't feel like anyone not perplexity, perplexity being so slow Google, especially so weird. It feels like they're hesitant to attach ads to these platforms at all. To the platforms, yeah, as in like they have an integrate because ad tech loves integrating shit are putting stuff on stuff, But it feels like they've stepped away from it like they had. Look.
Yeah, and maybe maybe because of that's a really interesting question. Maybe it's because it's just, you know, it's an interface for creation and they don't want to actually bastardartter with ads today. It might be that it might be that pure. It might be that pure.
I wonder if it's difficult to integrate it because.
Or where would you because that's that's the interface today. Feels a bit like Wikipedia meets answers dot com. Yeah, it feels a bit kind of retro, you know. And because it's a new interface, the only way to put the context around it is in the context of what you're generating.
And it's so and that's random every time.
And it's also software equals ads. Before, So if we roll this back to the early nineties mid nineties, there were holes cut across websites for display ads and those formats were accredited. Now it's so rare. There is a little bit of through line that feels like it's consistent, but it's not a consistent interface that feels like in rap ads around it and particularly on mobile, but Destop probably more so.
And I wanted to and like, this wasn't meant to be an oppositional question. It's just fascinating to me. Oh, I don't think it is.
I think it's a really good question because because I would say that these But the reason why I'm keep on asking for a pointed question to the question is that you've got creation tools and you've got consumption tools, and at times they're the same thing. Sure, if you look at Chat or if you look at you know, if you're a claud they're the same thing. So you're in there creating as a creator as well as somebody who is consuming that. That's pretty new from a dynamic of a user interface, because you don't go in and you don't well, you could go in and create a video on the fly and upload it to Instagram, but you wouldn't expect to see an ad on your creation of that video on Instagram, you know what I'm saying. So given that's the case, there's a new paradigm, that's all I'm saying. And I haven't really thought about that paradigm converging.
And that's the thing, Like your whole thing is what's new and sexy and ads and all shiny, and it's it's just so strange. It's truly unique. Because when we had the bullshit AR thing, I'm sure you remember that they had ads on that ship immediately. You could not. You couldn't you were filthy with filters. You could have like a sprite filter on your face if you wanted it. They had the ads immediately.
Because in that context, it feel like you're really good. Can you just layer it?
Yeah? And it's just like it and you I agree with you that they are creative interfaces when you look at them. This is not a judgment or how much I like them, it's just what they work work has. It just feels so weird that ad tech or like, none of these platforms want to Sam Wortman said he doesn't like it whatever, but it's just so bizarre.
What about the fact that the gold rush of AAR happening now is also part of the fallout of the euphoria of the web three NFT blockchain world how do you mean? And what I mean by that is that that was all the attention. If we meant on this particular show three four years ago, that's probably all you talk about.
I mean this three years ago, but I was I was on that ship if we were. But you know what I'm saying.
So, but that that has kind of that isn't as quite hypey as it is today. So what I'm saying, if people are saying Web three the future of that's more puristic. We haven't seen a world like this. This is going to be incredible. It's by landing it blah blah blah. Perhaps the positioning of what does this new web, better web look like? Jamming ads in it is just like having the uninvited guests to the paint.
I don't know if I feel like it's the utopian thing. It's just the idea of any of these companies being like, oh, well, we don't want to fuck up the Internet. I mean, look at Google Search. I mean that there is no great effector that has fucked up the Internet. Ragavat, piece of shit. It's just so strange. And I've really only came to this conversation thinking about this because every single hype cycle other than and crypto. I can understand why the ads weren't quite as prevalent. I can understand because it's difficult to do blockchain ads. Christ what a hype cycle idea, But blockchain ads because the sure the immutable ledger. But how would you actually reliably You could probably say a click happened. No, actually it would be difficult.
Yeah, attribution across that would be challenging. But I also think but on your point, I don't know why, to be honest, but I do think maybe there is It's always an outcome. Monetizing a platform of popularity is always going to be an outcome.
It doesn't mater to me.
And by the way, that's with every platform. You know, it starts with the purest of all the social platforms. None of them had ads initially. And then if you look at something if you go into the vault and look at things like MySpace, they never had ads for the longest time because the artist was the ad. I mean, you know, sure that makes sense.
Yeah, but I'm just thinking, I'm having like one idea, which is very difficult for my brain. It almost feels like these hype cycles have failed because they haven't found an AD thing all of the previous ones. The Internet is built on advertising, as you well know, but none of them, not meta, not metaverse, not crypto, not generative AI have found a stable ad income. And I have to wonder if it might be that the subscription model is not scalable, at least it doesn't scale to the dollars that advertising can provide, which most of tech is dependent on. Yeah, for sure.
I mean the subscription dollars versus the ad dollars is still the pathetic.
Yeah, forget about it.
But there's something really interesting about that popularity though we're still in this world of popularity right until right until you get scale, you don't have an audience that actually you can monetize. But it still comes down to I think these two interphases are in conflict because you've got consumption and creation happening on the same platform, right, which I think is incredibly unique.
It is unique, however, I feel about generative AI. There hasn't been something like this shit before, which is I find it deeply annoying and all of it frustrating, and the environmental and the theft and all of that, and the fact it's actually fair the people it's put out of jobs, feel like people who are already vulnerable as well, like art directors and like freelance audio people and freelance creatives are the ones getting fucked by this, and all of this is happening for them all to lose money. That to me is the dystopian part that they haven't. They've No one really appears to be benefiting from this other than maybe Samuelman and dari Ama Day.
There is something to the culture of creativity which is even in it adds today still is that creative is considered a non working part of the media. What do you mean, I mean that it doesn't count as part of the media creative.
So it's always this cost item. Ok so what the journalists and the artists and all that.
Yeah, the people should create the commercials for example, they typically doesn't get rolled up as part of the media spend or success. So it's always debatable. Media isn't because it's absolute, because it's skeary. You got a rate card, you know where the audiences are?
You know, I get what you're saying. Who are the people that have when you say it's not rated or like, it's not not contented part of the media. Who are the people saying this is it the ad? The ads people? They just don't consider the.
Creatives, oh, the brand. So if a brand is sitting here saying, look, we're going to create an AD, but the cost of that ad doesn't get attributed to where the media is because media is always whole.
So that's always I'm not sure I understand.
So I guess my point in saying this is that we're always going to try and skinny down the cost of creation, right, Okay, that's really the nut of it, because everything else that's ray card, negotiable, whatever, But the actual physical cost of the thing that gets placed that always seems to be.
A step child. Yeah yeah, yeah, No, that's a shame.
And so when you talk about vulnerability, I completely agree with that. The flip side of that is all of these efficiency tools that we see, and AI is considered one of those today because generative is just one part of it which is still trying to find I believe its way. I find some things that are really kind of amazing, but not all the time, Like I wouldn't be using it all the time, but you can't.
It is not reliable on that point. No, I wasn't even trying to gotch that, but you just can't write now.
And it's also you know, it's not higher resolution enough. There's many reasons why, but it does get you to mediocre faster, and so at least.
Jesus that allows you to not the secreme, but.
You you know, so at least make those decisions to say, obviously that's a bad idea, we're not going to go forward with it, as opposed to somebody polishing ten great ideas or ten mediocre ideas and finding out there's one should have been executed faster, better, sooner.
Maybe that's a maybe that's a case for it. I think you've really touched upon something though, which is I think a lot of my listeners and my readers struggle with why so many corporations want general if AI to grow. And parts of it is the labor automation, why they want, why they want to be a thing, And there's many stupid reasons. But I never thought about the fact that just in the ads world, which controls large swarts of our economy and funds a lot of the tech industry, just all creativity was considered minor. I never I mean, it's very obvious now I say it, but like it's fascinating to know that from that is that like an executive possession. Well, yet here's a challenge.
You have mediocre creatives seen by many, right, and you see really great creatives seen by few. So that's why it feels like the creatives still sort of sit.
At the back.
They're trying to do these things, but they whenever a discussion says at scale, that's when it falls apart. So that's why it's it's kind of.
Why is mediocre seen by the many? Though?
Like why does the mis simply because of format? I think is really you know, the ability to try and create something that has a contagiousness to it. Today seems to have a celebrity moment those days. I think it kind of at least falling away, and there are better places for people to hold their attention, So metrics have to change effectively, go away from popularity and talk about other things like how do you hold somebody's attention for the longest time versus just trying to saturate you know, right, I mean I think it's I think the landscape's changing, but I don't think it's I don't think creation of content or creativity is evolving at the same pace.
But would evolving even matter if there was this attitude towards creatives? Ah?
Yeah, well, eg format, of course, what do you mean shape of the ad?
Sure, style of the ad.
You know you talked about ar as a good example. That was small orient's wow experience to be honest, but where.
Was the conversion there? Because that's the thing. It doesn't feel like there has been a new successful ad format in a long time. Have you seen others?
I really haven't. It's so strang you know, I've tried on as I'm sure you have with vision Pro. You've tried on the goggles? Oh christ, yes, you know I can't really see anybody. Firstly, it just doesn't scale. It comes back to that, right, there is no scale, but it's immersive. But the reality of are you building things for a wonder many? Are you building it for one to one?
And just even then I have to wonder if there's not a problem which we the geniuses have discovered, which is there is no like we're in the iHeartRadio studios. One of the most successful advertising formats, and as my listeners love to tell me, is the ads. The basic radio play ads and display ads and so CPACPM. Otherwise, it doesn't feel like advertising has evolved. It's tried to evolve.
Yeah, I mean we tried to do it with Devil. We try to do it with these incredible formats and at least work. They certainly did, and the measurement of work is you know, dwell time click through all of those things that you can measure. They were going through the roof and they work until they become standards and then they don't work because they're everywhere. So there's this exclusivity to these things that make you feel like you're scale, and then scale comes in rum because when everyone does the same thing and it all gets back to well, you end up with homogenization. Right, So that's why just why it's homogenized. Everything feels normalized. It feels consistently the same thing, regardless of what you put in. It was there was something and you know, this conversation makes me think of something that was retro years ago when these ad formats came out. There was this ad and I don't know what brand it is, So that's at the jump that tells me that the thing didn't work. But what was working was this incredible experience. So a band built shape of a AD display, add two shapes. One was square, one was rectangular, and in this square they had a drama and maybe a guitarist. In that square that had a basis and maybe the vocals. And they were playing live in these displays and display and those live displays because they were they were being broadcast to these websites.
That's so strange. It was so fabulous. Did it it felt?
I don't know, but it made a hell of an impression on me twenty years upstream. So that's the thing it's and it just felt very inventive.
That is inventive. I'm also going to have to look this up because that's how the hell.
Ben in a box or something. I don't look this up. It's very cool, but it's you get it.
It feels almost as if the more I think about the ads and display ads and all this, how like this might actually be what's really undermined general if AI, which is they are trying to scale something that requires advertising dollar level funding with subscriptions, which may not work.
I think you've hit on something, But I do think that when there's a format that becomes consistent, which doesn't exist today.
Right, when you've.
Got that, there's always these outlines.
That are trying to create something around that format. Right.
So back then in the day, there was breakout and you have an AD, you click on it, you know, folds open, right, you know, all of those sort of things that happened. All of that stuff was really just to say, here's the format that we've all decided is important. We're going to put this value on top of it. That makes it feel like it's really different and it reminds me of that band in the box thing. Yeah, because there's no consistent interface, you can't have a consistent AD. So everything around all these ads that we're going to see, they're going to be cloaked in this thing called context in value, I think, and it will be obstigated because it'll come back as a long paragraph talking about why I should buy these Sony headphones versus something else. Yeah.
I can see them trying that for sure. I mean, particularly in descriptive results. The problem is if that if that result is generative, that's going to shave off that little bit of CPM revenue. That's going to scrape it off. It's like it's almost as if it's antithetical to add I. Actually, I'll tell you where it won't shave it off.
It won't shave it off because you'll probably move from a CPA to sorry, CPM to a CBA so appeciship would that be?
Who knows?
But it depends on the cost of I mean, it depends on what the attribution cost it's going to be. But let me just stay with me for a second. If it moves from cost per mili into or thousands to cost per acquisition, and there is a direct cost because that AD is generated wonder one, right, so that it isn't a many to many model to wonder many and sorry, it's actually a wonder one generative. So I'm able to produce an AD that feels highly tailored to add in his needs.
But that should be highly valuableized. It should be. But the hallucination when you scale it to a million people is the thing. But you don't have to.
Sorry, you don't have to scale it, is what I'm saying. You do, No, you don't, you don't because if people aren't if you're searching generally for an AD some.
Headphones, we're searching for some headphones and you're presented with an AD for headphones, if it's generating for each person, say a million people see this ad and it is one to one. Yeah, it's still generative with fresh game. At one point it's going to hallucinate. It's just right. And I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong with the idea. It's just it's not completely thought out, I can tell you. But I love what is scale?
Yeah, yeah, and it's like the scale is a challenge.
With genera full stop, with generative AI is it's I just have to wonder if this is not part of the economic failure, because it doesn't. It scales, but when you try and scale it in the traditional tech software way subscriptions, it's not they're not making enough money or not with it. But even when you try and put it into ads ads, ads are by definition going to be scaled to millions, hundreds of millions of people to make any money. And if you're doing generative, you're going to have things like Google telling you to eat rocks.
I will tell you that I think this conversation isn't ready for that type of architecture. Because these generative tools are designed for generating, they're not just consuming. Sure, I don't think there's a mass that. I don't think the volume of people is is at a point where average people are going to consume things based on search criteria as a new rhythm.
I mean, that's how Google makes all its money. And it's Google.
But if you're talking about these other tools that are thinking about how they actually monetize, it's from a creative perspective, not from a consumption.
Yeah. I was just talking at scaling generative AI as an ad tech tool or add tool.
And in your reference to that example with Google, yeah, I'd be surprised if they're not at least trying.
Oh, they just started trying it. But it's funny. It's just in their search results. In their search started Gemini tools, you know. Yeah, well no, they're now putting Gemini front and center, which is so funny. It's just like, but it definitely crowds out of their homepage. Well that's the thing, Like Google's in this weird, this really weird spot now And actually.
Do you think it's a catch ups? What to tell me when you say weird? To find that some more?
Well, I mean that Google search has never been worse. It's definitely worse. It's ever been a little bit like Craigslist of the nineties. Yes, by comparison, Craigslist information was relatively validated. I mean you didn't. You didn't have crags list optimization experts, and if you did, I'd love to meet them. But it's Google's position right now is they're behind on AI, even though it's like being the first to eat out of the toilet. In my opinion, it's they're behind on AI. They're a traffic is slowing like that, everything is kind of contracting with them, and they're desperate and people hate these AI search results. So yeah, they are in a weird spot. But on top of that, I think we've actually noticed one thing, which is the core economics of tech are around ads, and ads have been the same fifteen to twenty years. They've had agree I mean ads at scale.
Sure, So it's the at scale question that comes back to that, because you know, everything sounds great in that statement until you say at scale exactly.
It's kind of the world. Oh mate.
You'll hear that the creative brief stage where it's like, how can we do this? But it needs to scale? Like wow, But that's not take that out of the vernacular ads. Take that out of the vernacular of metia. It's everything is trying to scale. The beauty industry is trying to do things at scale. They're trying to do things at a high volume. I mean, this is just part of the vocab.
It's an attempt to do something at scale with nuance, which is almost impossible.
I imagine that's a good observation.
I mean, look at the super Bowl commercials. They're all insane. That every single Super Bowl commercial is like either old people doing something that young people do or eleven celebrities.
And I was watching there's lots of electric, lots of retro soundtracks.
Exactly like Big Noises, And I feel very stupid because now I understand they are trying to create something that they are trying to create something that everyone could enjoy. Man, I know so little sometimes.
But that's I mean, the truth of that is to matter for everybody means you matter for nobody. Yeah, and that analogy rings true there. So there's something nostalgic and comfortable and okay, but everything around it has to be super weird to try and make it fit.
And that example.
But you know, I think the Super Bowl is a really good example of you know, to a moment right the rest of I don't know what happens on daytime TV, but those sort of ads don't turn up there.
Yeah, because you would also be spending so much money on all of that, you know more about the economics. I actually want to change gears slightly because you did write something related to nostalgia and as a as a creative, as you as you go about your business, are you finding more demand on the client side? Four more nostalgic things returning to the nineties of the two thousands, Are you finding any of that?
Yeah, it's not it's not a date stamp. Yeah, it's just a feeling and that nostalgic vibe is I think it's as I think it's a throwback to Look, we're in a room right now that has a lot of nostalgia around it.
Maybe these buttons couldn't be more big.
I love them, and these sort of analog knobs and you know what I mean, Yeah, creaky chairs and you know the only thing that's modeling here are the shaw mics. Everything else this kind of retrod, including.
The Daniel Goodman's wonderful skills and.
The and the MDR headphones, whatever we're wearing right now. But what's amazing about this is there's there's a throwback one to those who are old enough to know about nostalgia and those are them young enough to curious about it because they, you know, didn't grow up with it, but they're super curious, you know, to read through liner notes and understand that there's a flip side of an LP and there's something very there's something very moorish about slowing it down because it's everything is highly consumptive him. Then the time we've spoken, I saw you pick up your phone. Oh that was the picture A dozen times something waits one but can I not exaggerate? But what's amazing about this is that there's something really kind of about that distraction.
That the anchors it.
There's something there's something beautiful about nostalgia and I'm gonna keep harping on about it because I see it pop up. I mean, super Bowl is a classic example. I think I counted like eleven songs or something, yet I'm gonna misquote that, but I could pick everything from Bloody Huey Lewis to Journey or something, and I'm like, my god, you know firstly what happened, and secondly, is this the only thing we have as this throwback?
There's something really unique about it. I have to wonder if it's not a bit of trying to ignore reality as well. You talk about them, I don't mean it when you look at the news, it sucks when you look at the like everything kind of sucks. There's you talk about the idea that we're constantly getting we're having to engage with our devices constantly, and I agree, and it's the kind of a return to a time when we weren't harassed by them, even though we I love being online, but at the same time, now I fucking hated it before online. I'm not going to pretend I imagine normal people crave the time of not being online constantly and not having because it's not just like content. It's you get working, as you get your texts from people mad at you get a text from a T shirt company you bought from fifteen years ago. It feels like maybe people are craving an off ramp almost or permission to have one of these.
Yes. Can I also say, though, there's something about perhaps this fast culture that we've fu and this futuristic vibe that we've been in something and what I mean. But I'm just going to apply this to front. I'm just going to apply this to a thought in that statement you said about nostalgia. When I watch a brand like BMW line and I see their cars, which look amazing, right, the love that a retro car, like an old car that they get, like back in the eighties, a boxy M series or something and M three or something three twenty five I or something, it gets way more love and commentary than anything they've got either in market or even planning on doing. Aynda is a classic example. They you know they're throughout this. They might bring back this boxy beautiful.
Oh is this the electric one? But it's like an.
Eighties yeah, and it's got the you know, it's got the square lights. And you'll see people go into every single design detail like the white wall time to the to the type of mudcap. You don't get that sort of detail today. It's all spec right, and then it's not there's no emotion to it. But you look at these things that feel like and it's not bygone emotion. It's a different era of freedom. And maybe that's kind of the thing that is a land like terrestrial radio, it's probably still massive. I mean, I had it was so bloody successful. Terrestrial radio is unbelievable, And.
I think it's because in a world of just sudden conversations, you have real ones. The reason that I like doing the reason that then any lessener is curious about this. The reason I don't do a lot of virtual interviews is they kind of suck. Yeah, maybe it's pretty good, but the in person it's having the micropront it's like hearing yourself that the basic tones. I also have to wonder if the reason that people are nostalgic for things like an old car, or like the CD player or whatever, is it felt like the companies gave more of a shit because you talk about that thing probably scaling. It's built for everyone, but built for no one. Every car kind of looks the same. They all have the kind of Tesla esque curve to it, or like they look like a Porsche Cayenne. Yeah not a car guy. They all kind of look and feel the same, and they all kind of and people are craving something that feels like anyone cared about building out.
Maybe yeah, and maybe it all got to a point. I think maybe designing culture generally has got to a point where it feels like it's efficient. Yes, and that efficiency means it's not I'm not tied to any of it, dude, you know what I mean. Yeah, And that evolution of design means that if you've got efficiency, you're really because you' using battery technologies and you're using something that doesn't have to feel like it looks like a pin, so it becomes wind efficient and you build something that's square, square, square, square blast. I think it's amazing.
I think this is why people don't like generally if AI content as well, because it really the point we're making earlier that it all kind of looks the same. It has to be down County Valley. It feels like, Wow, no love went into it, not just like not just like this is mass produced. It's not even mass produced. It's this sub production where we're creating this thing for nobody and everybody at the same time. I don't I'm not going to debate generative AI's efficacy with you in any further. I'm sorry about that. But you know, it's more we're all kind of craving a return to a time when things felt like they were made for someone, that they were made with a bit of a soul, and it sucks to be in this world and it sucks to And I think that nostalgia is the natural It's kind of the natural endpoint of a culture that has escaped any kind of personalization or joy in the creation of anything mass market. Even the utility of these things doesn't feel like it's four people.
You know, as you're having this discussion, and I'm with you. Yeah, I look out at the screen that we're facing and flow Rider was on, and before that was Flavor Flav and I think before that a minuscene snoop yep, And I look at them and think, to your point, there's something about these this cycle of comfort and familiarity that I think is it's really interesting because what you're talking about is by the way, I will just put a pin in this and say that I think the generative AI creation will absolutely be for everything other than the human. And when you want to put a human in it, just film them and then add them to this generative crazy background in utopia if you want to do it. But these blended AI experiences will happen. But I do think that because it's called CGI previously.
But I actually I'm going to push back on that and say I believe that will happen. Yeah, but I think people are going to get really upset with it because you're kind of seeing it with severance and the Mandalorian when they're doing these weird I don't know what it's called, but it's when they do the on shot thing where it's they pretend they're outside, and for a while it convinced people. Then you saw it enough times you're like, no, fucking another fuck.
But what it would also do, though, is it'll inspire you when you see something that's really designed by cutting up the cardboard box to make it feel like a cardboard box. And I can show you some really good examples of people that push back against that and say, we're just going to film this thing analog. Dude.
Oh yeah, I feel it and it feels so different, and it does, and it's just we're we're getting back to maybe nostalgia is just wishing that people that creatives gave it, not creative. Yeah, it feels like the mechanisms of creatives more than anything, gave a ship and felt like they were putting any thought into it other than just kind of simmering it down for everyone making creative.
I've almost bought the Samsung flip phone a couple of times.
Oh it's so cool. Yeah, it's so cool. I love it. I use that exactly. I need my I message. I need it.
I'm a pig and I don't have two phones. It just drives me crazy. But even the matter all looks amazing. But there's something about that time when you'd have a flip phone and buttons and all that.
I didn't. I didn't have a flip phone, right, the chocolate bar Nokia. Yeah, that was so good. It's funny.
It's it's funny like chocolate bark.
But even then it kind of fucking sucked. I don't know why I'm pretending like I like this device the moment, the iPhone.
Because you're probably still talking on the phone and that sounded god what it did on the tin. No, I just you're texting with all those buttons.
Yes, Oh, I'm a freak in many ways. And it's just funny because as we discuss all these different bits, it really is just like creativity is considered this stepchild of ads. Ads are the way that a lot of people are exposed to an alarming amount of creativity, and it feels like people at scale are kind of becoming more aware of how much is manufactured for them. Maybe it's not just that thing. Maybe it's not that things have changed a ton. I believe they have, obviously, but it's that they've kind of people are more aware of when they're being fucked with, when they're being given the same slop when they're being given And I think that corporations may have slightly overplayed their hand.
In the mass production ere I mean you'll see that with foods, You'll see that with I mean education in that criteria is way more transparent and interesting than it used to be because you don't have to have you know, you can consume less and probably feel better. And I have a question for you, is that an ordering where it got?
Why you're wearing it? Because they track my sleep? Are you doing my workout?
And you're actually you are using it as a utility? I am you haven't how long you had it?
That's years? Yeah?
Generation like gen isn't it three? And do you find so do you do anything with the data.
Or you just do it?
Does it just reassure you, Oh no, this.
Is this is the terrible choice if if you wanted any gotcha. No. So, actually I'm really interested in my sleep because I realized a few years ago that my sleep was fucked and I couldn't work out why I was depressed. Good. I've become fascinated by what I don't know weed or alcohol will do to me. Not that I'm like experimenting, but if I have a bad night sleep, I like to look at it and say, all right, this does affect me. I just got this thing called a son as well. What is it? It's like a thing you've strapped to your head and it has the little electrodes that go on to the top. Is this fella you sleep it down on? No? Isn't you just put it on? It does like a fifteen minutes before bed. It has increased my ram sleep and I have been feeling surely. But yeah, I'm annoying.
Sorry, What does this thing do? Does it give you?
It has some sort of waves? It doesn't you. I should be able to say this oftenly.
But but you're finding your sleep cycles better?
Yes?
Now are you finding that the patterns you your sleep cycles?
Previously?
Once you've sort of vindicated I'm having a crappy night sleep. Has it changed your behavior?
Yes? No, I like how proximity of using any substances before bed, like what I eat when I eat? That was a big thing, like eating late.
I also, oh, well, okay, so you are you really are digging into the day.
Yeah, because otherwise why I'm wearing this thing that on dating apps convinces people that I'm married. It's very fucking annoying.
There's something interesting about, you know, the adoption of these sort of technologies like athletes, for example, Oh yes, clearly fall back to things like the whoop band and oh well or not, they'll wear a garment or they'll wear these technologies that have been around for a long time for athletes. But you know, the eye watches of this world or you know.
I watch no no, no, that no, that just means you've been around a while. You're just still saying the ship before they'd even know.
But yeah, So what's interesting to me is, you know, the subtlety of technology, while it comes down and gives you what you need, hopefully that changes your psychology. Now we don't you don't necessarily see that on the phone because all the phone does is kind of distract you. We'll take you down a rabbitti. And so I'm just super curious about what your behavior is, your relationship with that sort of tech. But it is because I've pushed away from all of it.
I generally do like I with my workouts, I track my calories and that is emotional. Yeah, good on you. No, that is absolutely emotional, and that's a good use case for that. But if I but oh no, I use it. Oh but this is the ultimate tech bullshit.
Though.
I don't use this track all my workouts. I track boxing with this. You box with the ring on? Yeah, you bandage your hand up like that with the ring you get you get quick wraps on?
Okay, Yeah, and it just doesn't crush your fingers.
Haven't it did with certain raps?
Yeah, but it's it's not the lowest profile ring.
That's why I'm no, it's really not. It's like the Chunky one Victorious.
Song of the Verge was, are we spending too much time with the ring?
I don't care. This is my show, do whatever the hell I want. I can say shit and balls and all that. It is funny though, because all of this talk about nostalgia. It is kind of where even I personally am leaning I'm listening to fucking metal from fifteen years ago. My favorite in Flames album is Colony, which is twenty years old and barely resembles the band anymore. Like one of my favorite movies is the Guardians of the Galaxy movie in the first one, which is inherently nostalgic. And those movies got shit as all it became about was nostalgic. And now I've just had a live thought, which is that is the thing that's that is actually something that's driving a lot of culture. Which is the reason the Marvel movies did well at the beginning was they were fun, they were nostalgic, They had these characters you'd love to see, and they got progressively worse as these companies were like, Okay, what the people like about this? Fuck it is the people they recognize. Look, it's the guy from the thing. The corporatization of nostalgia, I.
Think it's but it does get rebooted. Right, So if you look at the music videos that are playing back here now, half those soundtracks and I'm paraphrasing this, are using a soundtrack that's retro. Yeah, and there's something it's familiar, right. You hear this backbeating thing that seems like that's funky trim dammer from you know, James Brown, and you hear that in the track and think, Okay, there's a reason why that works because it's just good and something about the time that that was done.
And it wasn't created to scale right, putting even the side generative AI for now. I just mean like, because if you look at this, there will be multiple things on TikTok where it's like a band has popped up and you're like, wow, they're so good, or people have said this and it's turned out to be like they're pretending to be a garage pan but it's actually a signed artist with United and it's it does and switch Yeah. And there's so much of it now and there are things that are made to be to appear normal and natural that are absolutely not. And I think people are craving normality again, they're craving things that don't feel mass produced. I agree with you, it's a funny. It's a funny time. Yeah.
I wrote about craft this week and it was really just about you know, if you've got all these tools that make you feel like happy hands.
What do you mean happy hands?
Like very excited? And I can defend that all day every day. But what I lean towards is craft. You know, I will all day every day rather a pen and pencil than trying to scribble something down on my iPad, you know. Yeah, so there's just something more visceral, and I'm leaning towards that as a test to make sure I'm not losing my rods and cones, but that it's not just down this rabbit's warrant of distraction that I can actually be, you know, back to creation.
Mm hmm. Are you well? You say you say you're like aware of your phone nagging you? Are you generally? Do you surround yourself with tech or do you try to?
I'll push back in how so I had all the tech that made me look like a tribal leader like you. I mean, I get it, dude, but I when I don't game of fine, data doesn't excite me about myself, right, and it's not that interesting.
And so.
The thing that's wild for me is nature. I mean, tech is, yeah, it's great to but what am.
I going to do with it?
And I don't know if I want to do that with it whatever that is. So no, I try not to I'm trying to push back to you know, no, not trying to push back. I'm trying to restrict the amount of things that occupy my mind and take my attention away from creating.
And what are you creating? And is it for? Is it just for you?
I know, I'm right, you know, yeah, it is really I have this concept of edition of one. It really is just for me, and it doesn't matter if it doesn't scale. And you know, I'm a classically trained designer, so I'm back to full design outside of my creative practice. And I have a wet studio, so I'm in the marriage studio. Yeah, I'm married to an artist. We have you know what is a wet studio. We have paints in the thing that are constantly dry. I mean it's very practical, dude, and it's not screen free. A lot of it is just back to articulating things, you know, playing music, you know, things that actually feel like I play guitar, seeing all that rubbish.
But it's fun. But it's oh, it's funny.
I love so more of that than just sort of being a participant I'd rather be actively participating in it, which is why I can't stand sports. I mean, I can't stand sitting and watching sports. I'd rather play football if I'm going to you know, I'd rather go out in the field and kick. If I'm going to kick. I can't really sit back and watch. It drives me nuts. Interesting, But there's something about kind of just taking that position of the polymath. I've got lots of ideas that I want to express. Let's get them down on.
Paine that they're expressed for you rather than yeah, can less others find it interesting.
I've got a fashion co lab that I'm doing, and I've got these artisans and craft people in Mexico that are actually hand stitching this embroidery in state of digital embroidery, which I could have done finding it sitting it's sitting on the fabric differently. I mean, it's all of these things that are slow crafts. They're bloody. It's just awesome, dude, it really is. No. It slows me down. It puts me in a place that feels more conscious.
It's funny because this show came from a newsletter that I wrote for three hundred people's fifty eighty five hundred now and this show started with a lot of people being very unfair to me on readit, and I will admit I changed into the internet. Oh no, fuck yeah, I didn't change shit. I just kept doing it until I felt good. And it's interesting how the show's done well based on that, rather than trying to change it for anyone, partly because I didn't. I never really understood why I would change for them, Like I was like Horsity at fifty five has told me they don't like it when I say, this is what the fuck am I meant to do? Write it down and like avoid the word fuck that. It just it feels that that is also another thing plaguing creatives, that there is this apparent source of derision and judgment on tap right, and you have to do that to scale, to do that, and the desperation for engagement is kind of stuck in the joy out of even the process. It's too slow. It must be done this fast, we must be timely.
Yeah, but there's one thing that's definitive is there's only certain amount of time in a day, isn't it. You can't create a new version of it, but you can participate in it differently. I think this has been an interesting conversation for me because I didn't know what we're going to chat about, if anything. Yeah, and I'm admirer of your work, so congrats on all you're doing.
Thank you so much, Shingy. I think we can wrap it that. Where can people find you, Shingy? Uh? You know the interwebs? Yes, but wow, Okay, I'll put it in the apisode.
I'm easily found on linked just looks probably the right way, Shingy. You could go to my dot com. I'm there too, hanging out. Yeah, but you know it's Yeah, this has been a blast. Thanks for coming in on a hot streak about Jen of course, and we exit out on pottery.
Sure your streets at my mum's spotter as well. That's Ron, all right, you've been listening to me. My name's ed Zetron. You can google them who destroyed Google Search and you will find the answer is me. Thank you so much to Daniel Goodman or wonderful producer here in New York, and thank you, of course to all of you for listening. You'll now hear a very similar message after that. I've recorded in February of last year, and I swear I'm going to re record. Mattasowski and I were talking about this yesterday. B sal Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects at Mattasowski dot com, M A T T O. S O W s ki dot com. You can email me at easy at Better Offline dot com or visit Better Offline dot com to find more podcast links and of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat dot Where's youreed dot at to visit the discord, and go to our slash Better Offline to check out our reddit. Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
