All zone media, mother father, come quick, it's better offline. The tech podcast I'm Your host ed Zetron What. A few weeks ago, the Internet was captivated by the work of one particularly pissed off software developer who claimed, and I quote the title of his blog, I will fucking pile drive you if you mention AI again. The writer, based in Australia, lays out in detail how infuriating a distraction AI has become from the wider problems riddling many modern tech companies, as well as the noxious, nasty presence of grift and management consultant types that are deliberately keeping it inflated, regardless of whether it actually means anything. One particular quote stood out to me. You see, while hype is nice, it's only nice in small bursts. For practitioners, we have a few things that a grifter does not have, such as job stability, genuine friendships and souls. What we do not have is the ability to trivially switch fields the moment the gold rush is over, due to the sad fact that we actually need to study things and build experience. Grifters, on the other hand, wield the omnitool that they self aggrandizingly call politics. That is to say, it turns out that the core competency of smiling and promising people things that you can't actually deliver is highly transferable. This piece caught both my eye and that of Cool Zone Media's Robert Evans, who assured me he promised that I'd be allowed to leave the Cool Zone Media pain cage if I was able to get the author of the piece on the show. So that's what I did. Adjoining us to talk about this incredibly aggressive blog is Nikol Suresh, who's the director at Hermit Technology and an excellent blogger. Nick, thank you so much for joining us.

All zone media, mother father, come quick, it's better offline. The tech podcast I'm Your host ed Zetron What. A few weeks ago, the Internet was captivated by the work of one particularly pissed off software developer who claimed, and I quote the title of his blog, I will fucking pile drive you if you mention AI again. The writer, based in Australia, lays out in detail how infuriating a distraction AI has become from the wider problems riddling many modern tech companies, as well as the noxious, nasty presence of grift and management consultant types that are deliberately keeping it inflated, regardless of whether it actually means anything. One particular quote stood out to me. You see, while hype is nice, it's only nice in small bursts. For practitioners, we have a few things that a grifter does not have, such as job stability, genuine friendships and souls. What we do not have is the ability to trivially switch fields the moment the gold rush is over, due to the sad fact that we actually need to study things and build experience. Grifters, on the other hand, wield the omnitool that they self aggrandizingly call politics. That is to say, it turns out that the core competency of smiling and promising people things that you can't actually deliver is highly transferable. This piece caught both my eye and that of Cool Zone Media's Robert Evans, who assured me he promised that I'd be allowed to leave the Cool Zone Media pain cage if I was able to get the author of the piece on the show. So that's what I did. Adjoining us to talk about this incredibly aggressive blog is Nikol Suresh, who's the director at Hermit Technology and an excellent blogger. Nick, thank you so much for joining us.

Oh, thank you for the very kind words. I'm super excited to be here. When that piece came out, at least three people said, hey, have you heard of ed Citron And I was like, well, I'm talking to Tomorrow'll be excited now I will.

Oh, thank you for the very kind words. I'm super excited to be here. When that piece came out, at least three people said, hey, have you heard of ed Citron And I was like, well, I'm talking to Tomorrow'll be excited now I will.

So you're angry, I think we've kind of got that, and I share your anger. But what is it about this that really boils your blood that makes you want to pile drive folks?

So you're angry, I think we've kind of got that, and I share your anger. But what is it about this that really boils your blood that makes you want to pile drive folks?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's interesting because a lot of people read that piece and they reached out and thought that, you know, I'm actually super angry about AI specifically, but a pretty consistent through line through my blog.

So it's interesting because a lot of people read that piece and they reached out and thought that, you know, I'm actually super angry about AI specifically, but a pretty consistent through line through my blog.

It's on a lot of traffic over the past year and a half.

It's on a lot of traffic over the past year and a half.

It's not about AI specifically, it's about this massive class of non technical managers that have entered the IT space and you're essentially cause playing and doing software engineering. The thing that is infuriating about the LLLM thing in particular is that it's uniquely suited for drifting. So if you look at the average company that they can't ship incredibly basic applications. And even if you look at something like the crypto space, which I don't like, but you look around Melbourne, crypto companies actually have some level of engineering discipline. You know, they use newer technology, they've got there's things in the job descriptions to indicate seriousness.

It's not about AI specifically, it's about this massive class of non technical managers that have entered the IT space and you're essentially cause playing and doing software engineering. The thing that is infuriating about the LLLM thing in particular is that it's uniquely suited for drifting. So if you look at the average company that they can't ship incredibly basic applications. And even if you look at something like the crypto space, which I don't like, but you look around Melbourne, crypto companies actually have some level of engineering discipline. You know, they use newer technology, they've got there's things in the job descriptions to indicate seriousness.

Right.

Right.

AI companies don't have that, and I don't think at big corporations CEOs are aware that their stoff for just typing an import open AI. You know, you're not doing any complex work. You just call like an API. You just you just send data to a company in the US. They do everything, and people down here in Melbourne are making out like they're the greatest engineers ever, their thought leaders. You should put them on comper stages. It's not hard. It's so easy. It takes like a week to make something from scratch.

AI companies don't have that, and I don't think at big corporations CEOs are aware that their stoff for just typing an import open AI. You know, you're not doing any complex work. You just call like an API. You just you just send data to a company in the US. They do everything, and people down here in Melbourne are making out like they're the greatest engineers ever, their thought leaders. You should put them on comper stages. It's not hard. It's so easy. It takes like a week to make something from scratch.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I really appreciated that part of your piece because it gets at something that's like frustrated me as well, which is and I'm not coming at this from the same kind of technical background you are, but knowing that there's there's legitimate technology here, but all of the people being trusted with marshaling it and marshaling these companies that are supposed to deliver it to us are on their face. Conman, I'm thinking about Sam Altman today, or at least the clip came out today where he's like, soon you'll be able to just ask asking chat GPT to solve physics for.

I really appreciated that part of your piece because it gets at something that's like frustrated me as well, which is and I'm not coming at this from the same kind of technical background you are, but knowing that there's there's legitimate technology here, but all of the people being trusted with marshaling it and marshaling these companies that are supposed to deliver it to us are on their face. Conman, I'm thinking about Sam Altman today, or at least the clip came out today where he's like, soon you'll be able to just ask asking chat GPT to solve physics for.

You, solveys.

You, solveys.

That's just a nonsense statement. That's just that's absurd. The way we know that, right, we can all tell that that's nonsense.

That's just a nonsense statement. That's just that's absurd. The way we know that, right, we can all tell that that's nonsense.

If if you're not defaming him, that's a crazy thing.

If if you're not defaming him, that's a crazy thing.

Like if you guess those are the.

Like if you guess those are the.

Woods, I'll find the exact quote.

Woods, I'll find the exact quote.

But yeah, no, he he, he was very much. That's what he said. You've spoken of this kind of like organizational cancer inside tech films? Is it this kind of grift?

But yeah, no, he he, he was very much. That's what he said. You've spoken of this kind of like organizational cancer inside tech films? Is it this kind of grift?

Yeah, yeah, it's not specific to technology. It's just the technology makes it very very easy. I don't know of any industry that doesn't have this massive horde of people who don't really know what they're doing, right, but they just kind of bulldoze peaceeople socially put it this way. So I think my blog is done two million hits in the past year and a million realized. And when people talked about, you know, offering me work or anything, they said they would give me a reference at their workplace, but they wouldn't mention that piece because leadership would be so embarrassed, like they can't have someone like me around going to someone yeah somewhat cool things, it says, fuck sometimes can't have that. But no, it's just because like the Emperor very clearly has no clothes. I don't even really get hate mail because people know I'll just point out that they're drifting and they'll have no defense, so they just leave me alone.

Yeah, yeah, it's not specific to technology. It's just the technology makes it very very easy. I don't know of any industry that doesn't have this massive horde of people who don't really know what they're doing, right, but they just kind of bulldoze peaceeople socially put it this way. So I think my blog is done two million hits in the past year and a million realized. And when people talked about, you know, offering me work or anything, they said they would give me a reference at their workplace, but they wouldn't mention that piece because leadership would be so embarrassed, like they can't have someone like me around going to someone yeah somewhat cool things, it says, fuck sometimes can't have that. But no, it's just because like the Emperor very clearly has no clothes. I don't even really get hate mail because people know I'll just point out that they're drifting and they'll have no defense, so they just leave me alone.

Yet, So, how do you think that this has happened? It clearly isn't something that happened overnight, but it feels like, especially the tech industry, has just been poisoned by product managers and management concerns. How did this happen?

Yet, So, how do you think that this has happened? It clearly isn't something that happened overnight, but it feels like, especially the tech industry, has just been poisoned by product managers and management concerns. How did this happen?

Off the top of my head, something that really influences this is just very strange ideas on how things scale. There is this I listened to those two episodes you suggested, and I think the main one is the Rot Combobble, which people should go listen to. And there is this idea that everything should scale up forever, and the only way to handle that communicatively is like this hierarchical structure.

Off the top of my head, something that really influences this is just very strange ideas on how things scale. There is this I listened to those two episodes you suggested, and I think the main one is the Rot Combobble, which people should go listen to. And there is this idea that everything should scale up forever, and the only way to handle that communicatively is like this hierarchical structure.

But it's really hard to find good people.

But it's really hard to find good people.

And I think a huge hierarchy can work if you only have really great people in it, but it's really hard.

And I think a huge hierarchy can work if you only have really great people in it, but it's really hard.

There's one good.

There's one good.

Software engineering company I know in Melbourne, Flip Down in the CBD, and they regularly interview forty people for one role, right because just the quality of candidates not there. If you insist you need this massive structure and you need a hierarchy for it, you're just going to have to insert people who don't know what they're talking about. You can't find good people fast enough, and then those people who aren't very good to hire other people who aren't very good, and soon that's the whole industry.

Software engineering company I know in Melbourne, Flip Down in the CBD, and they regularly interview forty people for one role, right because just the quality of candidates not there. If you insist you need this massive structure and you need a hierarchy for it, you're just going to have to insert people who don't know what they're talking about. You can't find good people fast enough, and then those people who aren't very good to hire other people who aren't very good, and soon that's the whole industry.

Right, and that feels something I'd be writing that will end up being a podcast that may run before or off. This is just this idea of shareholder supremacy, that the companies have been engineered to make a market need work to hit analyst expectations. Jack Welch, classic bastard. And it feels like this that llms in particular have become the ultimate form like the super Saiyan of rock capitalism, where people just kind of, like you said, just bullshit about them. It's like, yeah, you can do all this shit, right, Yeah, it's the future. What is your actual background?

Right, and that feels something I'd be writing that will end up being a podcast that may run before or off. This is just this idea of shareholder supremacy, that the companies have been engineered to make a market need work to hit analyst expectations. Jack Welch, classic bastard. And it feels like this that llms in particular have become the ultimate form like the super Saiyan of rock capitalism, where people just kind of, like you said, just bullshit about them. It's like, yeah, you can do all this shit, right, Yeah, it's the future. What is your actual background?

So I've got a four year qualification in psychology, so I mostly did cognitive psychology and circadian science, and then I moved over to a postgraduate qualification at one of Australia's bigger universities, so that was in data science. I did Masters with a little bit of a thesis work in it, so I'm reasonably good. I'm not a PhD, but I do know what I'm talking about.

So I've got a four year qualification in psychology, so I mostly did cognitive psychology and circadian science, and then I moved over to a postgraduate qualification at one of Australia's bigger universities, so that was in data science. I did Masters with a little bit of a thesis work in it, so I'm reasonably good. I'm not a PhD, but I do know what I'm talking about.

In the space.

In the space.

I did want to drill into something because you're coming at this like from the perspective of somebody who was working in a technical capacity, seeing the way this group of people who are talking nonsense are coming in and, as you said, kind of like bulldozing their way into conversations with people. Can you talk socially about the way that kind of happens, because we all sort of see the way these people try to monopolize conversations about technology at events, you know, if you're coming at it from like press at something like CEES, but also just kind of if you're looking at things on Twitter or looking at just sort of the way popular conversations go. But I'm I'm curious about like the social dynamics of these people who are coming into organizations full of real people trying to do real things and hijacking that for the purpose of cashing out.

I did want to drill into something because you're coming at this like from the perspective of somebody who was working in a technical capacity, seeing the way this group of people who are talking nonsense are coming in and, as you said, kind of like bulldozing their way into conversations with people. Can you talk socially about the way that kind of happens, because we all sort of see the way these people try to monopolize conversations about technology at events, you know, if you're coming at it from like press at something like CEES, but also just kind of if you're looking at things on Twitter or looking at just sort of the way popular conversations go. But I'm I'm curious about like the social dynamics of these people who are coming into organizations full of real people trying to do real things and hijacking that for the purpose of cashing out.

Yeah, I think a lot of them are latching onto some pre existing level of grift that's just been in the industry. So when I entered around twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, that's when I got into the Australian tech market, MLMs were not this massive thing, right. There were a couple of GPT two demos, but there is no way for you at a normal company to roll out something like Jenai, right, you really had to know what you were doing. You didn't have the resources, like you couldn't just hit an endpoint somewhere and get a result. And I cannot emphasize that enough for like non technical listeners, it's like two lines of Python to use open AI. People making these chatbots are not serious practitioners. I could teach like my thirteen year old cousin how to do this, but there's this kind of this pre existing class of person that talkslot, gets on stages, doesn't really know what's been going on. But they were much smaller back then. They did talk about AI relentlessly. But the difference between twenty nineteen and twenty twenty four is those people in twenty nineteen didn't have any working products. They would talk and then they would leave organizations every two years before they were on the hook for their failed projects. The difference now is people are going to those same people, so you just turn up and you go, hey, I'm going to be your lead data scientist, your chief.

Yeah, I think a lot of them are latching onto some pre existing level of grift that's just been in the industry. So when I entered around twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, that's when I got into the Australian tech market, MLMs were not this massive thing, right. There were a couple of GPT two demos, but there is no way for you at a normal company to roll out something like Jenai, right, you really had to know what you were doing. You didn't have the resources, like you couldn't just hit an endpoint somewhere and get a result. And I cannot emphasize that enough for like non technical listeners, it's like two lines of Python to use open AI. People making these chatbots are not serious practitioners. I could teach like my thirteen year old cousin how to do this, but there's this kind of this pre existing class of person that talkslot, gets on stages, doesn't really know what's been going on. But they were much smaller back then. They did talk about AI relentlessly. But the difference between twenty nineteen and twenty twenty four is those people in twenty nineteen didn't have any working products. They would talk and then they would leave organizations every two years before they were on the hook for their failed projects. The difference now is people are going to those same people, so you just turn up and you go, hey, I'm going to be your lead data scientist, your chief.

Data officer, whatever you want.

Data officer, whatever you want.

I'm going to do this AI revolution for you, and then they can very quickly ship stuff that doesn't quite work. But organizations are really bad at tracking what actually drives revenue, So the moment you get the flashy product out, people think you're some sort of superhero.

I'm going to do this AI revolution for you, and then they can very quickly ship stuff that doesn't quite work. But organizations are really bad at tracking what actually drives revenue, So the moment you get the flashy product out, people think you're some sort of superhero.

Yeah. And if it's broken, yeah, absolutely so.

Yeah. And if it's broken, yeah, absolutely so.

I've been I probably shouldn't say this, but I will and just leave the details out. I've been leaked a couple of confidential documents from i would say small to medium businesses on how JENNYI has worked in their chetbots. I can't name the companies because I'm not supposed to. The documents like, it's not impressive. Even the ones that sort of work. You get really weird statistics like interacting with the chatbot predicts tickets being escalated to human support teams, like way worse than usually.

I've been I probably shouldn't say this, but I will and just leave the details out. I've been leaked a couple of confidential documents from i would say small to medium businesses on how JENNYI has worked in their chetbots. I can't name the companies because I'm not supposed to. The documents like, it's not impressive. Even the ones that sort of work. You get really weird statistics like interacting with the chatbot predicts tickets being escalated to human support teams, like way worse than usually.

But they're still rolled about, right, that's good.

But they're still rolled about, right, that's good.

So the one thing that they say, this is going to be able to do customer service, very cool.

So the one thing that they say, this is going to be able to do customer service, very cool.

I definitely can't do it now.

I definitely can't do it now.

Great Jesus.

Great Jesus.

Do you get the sense they're rolling it out even though they're not saying an immediate like positive effect, because the kind of effect on their potential valuation by throwing AI in is higher than whatever they lose by having a less efficient actual solution.

Do you get the sense they're rolling it out even though they're not saying an immediate like positive effect, because the kind of effect on their potential valuation by throwing AI in is higher than whatever they lose by having a less efficient actual solution.

I think it's threefold.

I think it's threefold.

So the first one is it's speculative, which means even if I if I was dishonest and I thought it was bad for the company, I might want AI on my CV specifically, it doesn't actually have anything to do with the company, right, it's just for me. The second one is, yeah, there's obviously it's very easy to get funding. Someone reached out to me a CEO of a company that does LM work, and this person admitted to me their product doesn't work, so they don't accept funding because they're trying to get it to work and people are still flinging money at them. This thing that, like self admittedly doesn't function.

So the first one is it's speculative, which means even if I if I was dishonest and I thought it was bad for the company, I might want AI on my CV specifically, it doesn't actually have anything to do with the company, right, it's just for me. The second one is, yeah, there's obviously it's very easy to get funding. Someone reached out to me a CEO of a company that does LM work, and this person admitted to me their product doesn't work, so they don't accept funding because they're trying to get it to work and people are still flinging money at them. This thing that, like self admittedly doesn't function.

That's very cool. Yeah, it's great. It's great that the industry is in that position.

That's very cool. Yeah, it's great. It's great that the industry is in that position.

And the last one is good for them.

And the last one is good for them.

The last one is, you know, the chatbot piece.

The last one is, you know, the chatbot piece.

I don't work in that domain, but I kind of wonder is it cheaper to just provide bad customer service, lay off all your supports offf Like, when I'm trying to cancel my mobile plan, do they actually care that I got frustrated and put the call down?

I don't work in that domain, but I kind of wonder is it cheaper to just provide bad customer service, lay off all your supports offf Like, when I'm trying to cancel my mobile plan, do they actually care that I got frustrated and put the call down?

That sounds good for.

That sounds good for.

Them, right, Well, yeah, I mean that's one of the things that's so insane about this is that this could work out for them. At least in I still don't think that when you're looking kind the kind of like the dollar amount of valuations that like open Ai is seeing, I don't think that letting companies that don't give a shit about customer service economize more is going to be the size of industry that they're hoping for. You're certainly not going to It's not trillions of dollars in value, right, that could be a profitable business and just making everything a little bit worse for everybody like that, that could be a very good business to be it. Yeah, just Google, No, I mean yeah, I mean yeah, that's Google's done well off of that.

Them, right, Well, yeah, I mean that's one of the things that's so insane about this is that this could work out for them. At least in I still don't think that when you're looking kind the kind of like the dollar amount of valuations that like open Ai is seeing, I don't think that letting companies that don't give a shit about customer service economize more is going to be the size of industry that they're hoping for. You're certainly not going to It's not trillions of dollars in value, right, that could be a profitable business and just making everything a little bit worse for everybody like that, that could be a very good business to be it. Yeah, just Google, No, I mean yeah, I mean yeah, that's Google's done well off of that.

It's just just making things gradually, iteratively worse.

It's just just making things gradually, iteratively worse.

Well, I will say that I get a lot of email from people who left Google, and you know, some of them. It's a huge company, so they do some useful stuff, but a lot of people were like, I left because it sucks there now.

Well, I will say that I get a lot of email from people who left Google, and you know, some of them. It's a huge company, so they do some useful stuff, but a lot of people were like, I left because it sucks there now.

So that's that's definitely a thing.

So that's that's definitely a thing.

So you said the data science field was large but largely fraudulent. What exactly does that? Does it mean that most of data science is just grifting or is it just something a little more deep.

So you said the data science field was large but largely fraudulent. What exactly does that? Does it mean that most of data science is just grifting or is it just something a little more deep.

It's a little deeper than that. So as a as a technical discipline, machine learning is very very serious, right. You do see it used and genuinely helpful things. It's probably being used right now as we're recording this. It's somewhere in the supply chain, and you'll hear more old cool practitioners. They get very annoyed at the words AI and machine learning. They say things like, it's just statistics, you know it, Ellen are obviously doing something. It would be wrong to just say they're classical statistics and not impressive in any way. But when I say it's grifting, I mean this whole artificial intelligence thing. The people deciding on the size of the data science market are not technicians, so when you say AI, they're thinking Skynet, generative AI, general intelligence. Like they really have no idea what they're hiring for. But they'll do things like say we need to hire twenty data scientists tomorrow, right, like that's.

It's a little deeper than that. So as a as a technical discipline, machine learning is very very serious, right. You do see it used and genuinely helpful things. It's probably being used right now as we're recording this. It's somewhere in the supply chain, and you'll hear more old cool practitioners. They get very annoyed at the words AI and machine learning. They say things like, it's just statistics, you know it, Ellen are obviously doing something. It would be wrong to just say they're classical statistics and not impressive in any way. But when I say it's grifting, I mean this whole artificial intelligence thing. The people deciding on the size of the data science market are not technicians, so when you say AI, they're thinking Skynet, generative AI, general intelligence. Like they really have no idea what they're hiring for. But they'll do things like say we need to hire twenty data scientists tomorrow, right, like that's.

Right, without really knowing what they do with them, no.

Right, without really knowing what they do with them, no.

Idea what they do with them. And it's really hard to solve problems with data science, right. It is entirely possible to have a problem that is fundamentally intractable, no matter how discipline your team is because the data doesn't exist, or the problem's just too hard mathematically.

Idea what they do with them. And it's really hard to solve problems with data science, right. It is entirely possible to have a problem that is fundamentally intractable, no matter how discipline your team is because the data doesn't exist, or the problem's just too hard mathematically.

That happens all the time.

That happens all the time.

It almost feels like the problem with the tech industry is that nobody knows what they're doing. You have people that know stuff, how to do things, and then they get a job at Google in a pile of people that can do stuff run by someone who goes all right, dickheads, put the AI in it now, and then stuff comes out. It almost like the problem you mentioned earlier of just they're not being enough good people also appears to be there are no good managers.

It almost feels like the problem with the tech industry is that nobody knows what they're doing. You have people that know stuff, how to do things, and then they get a job at Google in a pile of people that can do stuff run by someone who goes all right, dickheads, put the AI in it now, and then stuff comes out. It almost like the problem you mentioned earlier of just they're not being enough good people also appears to be there are no good managers.

I wonder kind of pivoting or not pivoting, But building on that, I wonder how much of it is that the guys who are really good at keeping the hype going are also just better socially than the kind of people who are really good at coding and are really good at the actual like science, Like if some of the being bulldozed effect is that the people who really know their shit just are not used to the kind of energy that a hype man is capable of deploying against them.

I wonder kind of pivoting or not pivoting, But building on that, I wonder how much of it is that the guys who are really good at keeping the hype going are also just better socially than the kind of people who are really good at coding and are really good at the actual like science, Like if some of the being bulldozed effect is that the people who really know their shit just are not used to the kind of energy that a hype man is capable of deploying against them.

Yeah, so this has come up. I've thought about this a lot. So that's a kind of component of engineering. I work on a lot not hyping myself up, but actually being able to hold conversations. But that's not quite the attribute I see in the managers who do this kind of thing, because what you're describing is like a pure conman. And at least and not to be mean to people who aren't comment but I'm leaking, like at least there's some skill in that. But what we're talking about is they.

Yeah, so this has come up. I've thought about this a lot. So that's a kind of component of engineering. I work on a lot not hyping myself up, but actually being able to hold conversations. But that's not quite the attribute I see in the managers who do this kind of thing, because what you're describing is like a pure conman. And at least and not to be mean to people who aren't comment but I'm leaking, like at least there's some skill in that. But what we're talking about is they.

Just like this is where Steve Jobs comes in, right, there's a version of this that requires talent.

Just like this is where Steve Jobs comes in, right, there's a version of this that requires talent.

Right right, Like it may not be talented, I respect like morally, but I'm like that it's an actual skill set. But we're talking about people who have really just learned how to like mimic the trappings of success and responsibility. You know, they're real big on suits, they're real big on talking very slowly with long pauses, but like they don't have novel thoughts.

Right right, Like it may not be talented, I respect like morally, but I'm like that it's an actual skill set. But we're talking about people who have really just learned how to like mimic the trappings of success and responsibility. You know, they're real big on suits, they're real big on talking very slowly with long pauses, but like they don't have novel thoughts.

Their brain has just had.

Their brain has just had.

Like Forbes magazine flashed onto it like there's nothing else there.

Like Forbes magazine flashed onto it like there's nothing else there.

So maybe talking about social skill and bulldozing, I'm.

So maybe talking about social skill and bulldozing, I'm.

Not talking about the war, right, and you know, we're not talking about people who are doing this very savvy political piece where they finesse things, and you know, it's very machiavellian. We're talking about people who just turn up and if you point out they don't know what they're talking about.

Not talking about the war, right, and you know, we're not talking about people who are doing this very savvy political piece where they finesse things, and you know, it's very machiavellian. We're talking about people who just turn up and if you point out they don't know what they're talking about.

They're a fucking dick to you. And they do this until you leave them alone, and that's their whole career. The industry is just full of that. They're not even smart. I have seen an executive at a restaurant order the wrong dish, have their family eat the whole thing, then tell the weight stuff that like, hey, you brought us the wrong thing, and when a kid piped out, they shushed the kid.

They're a fucking dick to you. And they do this until you leave them alone, and that's their whole career. The industry is just full of that. They're not even smart. I have seen an executive at a restaurant order the wrong dish, have their family eat the whole thing, then tell the weight stuff that like, hey, you brought us the wrong thing, and when a kid piped out, they shushed the kid.

You know.

You know.

It's it's not like a talent that they have cultivated in the menagerial space. It's like personality disorder that just leads into everything.

It's it's not like a talent that they have cultivated in the menagerial space. It's like personality disorder that just leads into everything.

In ruins in a reality.

In ruins in a reality.

How I want.

How I want.

It's some of it is because like I talk about jobs a lot, and I think you have to because a lot of these guys, if not all of them, at some level wish they were him, right with the exception of the not you know, the medical issue, but like they's he's like mythologized to a significant degree. Especially I'm recording from San Francisco right now. I mean He's almost like a saint down here, and I feel like the act of copying him, you get these people who are like carbon copies of just the personality disorder without any of the actual insight. And I think that's like further exacerbated because they're all like, yeah, read the Art of War, read like one of three Malcolm Gladwell books, Read The Four Hour Body, and do not read anything else. There's no humanities, there's nothing like because all you need to learn how to do is be the most optimized asshole you can be.

It's some of it is because like I talk about jobs a lot, and I think you have to because a lot of these guys, if not all of them, at some level wish they were him, right with the exception of the not you know, the medical issue, but like they's he's like mythologized to a significant degree. Especially I'm recording from San Francisco right now. I mean He's almost like a saint down here, and I feel like the act of copying him, you get these people who are like carbon copies of just the personality disorder without any of the actual insight. And I think that's like further exacerbated because they're all like, yeah, read the Art of War, read like one of three Malcolm Gladwell books, Read The Four Hour Body, and do not read anything else. There's no humanities, there's nothing like because all you need to learn how to do is be the most optimized asshole you can be.

I like, how you just pick the If I had hit Man budget, like that would be my list as a data sideist. Malcolm Glenwell, Like I might need him more than anyone on the planet.

I like, how you just pick the If I had hit Man budget, like that would be my list as a data sideist. Malcolm Glenwell, Like I might need him more than anyone on the planet.

Oh, I'm right there with you, buddy. He's he's been advertise, I got our shows and oh man, I don't love it.

Oh, I'm right there with you, buddy. He's he's been advertise, I got our shows and oh man, I don't love it.

I don't love it.

I don't love it.

So with that in mind, Nick, what do you think of Sam Oltman.

So with that in mind, Nick, what do you think of Sam Oltman.

I don't really know a whole bunch about him because out here in Melbourne, I don't really play around in the fang super huge space.

I don't really know a whole bunch about him because out here in Melbourne, I don't really play around in the fang super huge space.

Right.

Right.

Our clients are relatively small. I work at like medium sized businesses, tiny compared to the size of Google and open AI. All I will say is, if he said what you just said about physics, like, he needs to come out with the greatest innovation I've ever seen in the next two years, or he will be one of the most insane people I've ever heard of, right, Like, that's he really has to deliver on that statement, or he's obviously full of shit.

Our clients are relatively small. I work at like medium sized businesses, tiny compared to the size of Google and open AI. All I will say is, if he said what you just said about physics, like, he needs to come out with the greatest innovation I've ever seen in the next two years, or he will be one of the most insane people I've ever heard of, right, Like, that's he really has to deliver on that statement, or he's obviously full of shit.

It just it blows me away that he's even able to say it without someone just being like, what the fuck you talking about? Sam Oltman? Sam Oltman, did you hit your head somewhere on the way here? Because it's not even the first insane thing he said. He has said so many times. I was super smart. It's going to be a super smart friend that knows everything about you? The fuck are you talking? What does any of this mean? And my own frustration I've shared about the media is that no one ever seems to say the appropriate thing, which is wait, what was that? Excuse me, mate? What? But it almost feels with everything you're talking about, and in your excellent blog that also feels like the problem You've just got these guys who just say things raise money go up in organizations and don't actually do anything like, Samulman did not make gpt someone else did that. Mirror Morati did not do it. Cto of open Ai didn't do it either.

It just it blows me away that he's even able to say it without someone just being like, what the fuck you talking about? Sam Oltman? Sam Oltman, did you hit your head somewhere on the way here? Because it's not even the first insane thing he said. He has said so many times. I was super smart. It's going to be a super smart friend that knows everything about you? The fuck are you talking? What does any of this mean? And my own frustration I've shared about the media is that no one ever seems to say the appropriate thing, which is wait, what was that? Excuse me, mate? What? But it almost feels with everything you're talking about, and in your excellent blog that also feels like the problem You've just got these guys who just say things raise money go up in organizations and don't actually do anything like, Samulman did not make gpt someone else did that. Mirror Morati did not do it. Cto of open Ai didn't do it either.

It's just so strong. It feels like we're living in.

It's just so strong. It feels like we're living in.

An alternate reality at times, and it's freaking me out. I wan to be honest, it's I'm putting on the clown makeup, the joker makeup almost every day now.

An alternate reality at times, and it's freaking me out. I wan to be honest, it's I'm putting on the clown makeup, the joker makeup almost every day now.

Was Miramuradi the one who couldn't answer that question on whether they used YouTube to try, Yes, I mean.

Was Miramuradi the one who couldn't answer that question on whether they used YouTube to try, Yes, I mean.

Yes, yes, she sure couldn't. And I found at least I watched the video with captions while we were doing this with sam Altman, and the exact statement was basically, someday you'll be able to ask chat gpt U discover physics for me. It'll do it, discover all the physics something like that. I've got the link in there, but like just just a nonsense statement, like at least at least go to make it. You could make like star Trek claims, right, like that's the rational end of this. I don't know that it'll actually be that good, but be like, one day I'll have a computer and you can tell it to do all these things and it'll it'll organize your life and answer questions, it'll run complex systems, and it'll let us explore space. That's nonsense too, probably at least in any kind of near term, but it's at least a thing that theoretically could happen, as opposed to just telling a robot to discover physics for you.

Yes, yes, she sure couldn't. And I found at least I watched the video with captions while we were doing this with sam Altman, and the exact statement was basically, someday you'll be able to ask chat gpt U discover physics for me. It'll do it, discover all the physics something like that. I've got the link in there, but like just just a nonsense statement, like at least at least go to make it. You could make like star Trek claims, right, like that's the rational end of this. I don't know that it'll actually be that good, but be like, one day I'll have a computer and you can tell it to do all these things and it'll it'll organize your life and answer questions, it'll run complex systems, and it'll let us explore space. That's nonsense too, probably at least in any kind of near term, but it's at least a thing that theoretically could happen, as opposed to just telling a robot to discover physics for you.

And he says, computer solve all of physics for me, which is so funny.

And he says, computer solve all of physics for me, which is so funny.

Right, And it's not what anyone Also, it's just not I don't know, I don't need to go into.

Right, And it's not what anyone Also, it's just not I don't know, I don't need to go into.

The physics works. You don't solve physics.

The physics works. You don't solve physics.

You don't solve physics. And it's not what's appealing about the Star Trek dream of a computer that works the way the ones on those ships do, right, Like it's the the enticing thing is the idea of like technology that is hopeful and still needs humans at the center of it. And I don't know, he doesn't seem to know how to like promise anything but the elimination of human creativity interest action, which I guess is part of what I find disturbing about him.

You don't solve physics. And it's not what's appealing about the Star Trek dream of a computer that works the way the ones on those ships do, right, Like it's the the enticing thing is the idea of like technology that is hopeful and still needs humans at the center of it. And I don't know, he doesn't seem to know how to like promise anything but the elimination of human creativity interest action, which I guess is part of what I find disturbing about him.

It also, you know, that's obviously something that is said to drive stock prices at various companies, right, it is like no one believes that, Like, it can't be the case. Even the people investing don't believe that, because if you could get a computer to solve physics, stock prices wouldn't matter anywhere, right, So that can't be why you're investing.

It also, you know, that's obviously something that is said to drive stock prices at various companies, right, it is like no one believes that, Like, it can't be the case. Even the people investing don't believe that, because if you could get a computer to solve physics, stock prices wouldn't matter anywhere, right, So that can't be why you're investing.

I just don't know that statement. I haven't really thought about too much before right now, but I can't get over the oder of soul physics. Like it's a statement said by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about for other people who don't know what they're talking about to go, damn, this boy's smart.

I just don't know that statement. I haven't really thought about too much before right now, but I can't get over the oder of soul physics. Like it's a statement said by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about for other people who don't know what they're talking about to go, damn, this boy's smart.

It kind of makes me suspect ed that he thinks about like writing a novel that way too well. The author could just solve you know, Wuthering Heights, right, he could have the chet GPT do it.

It kind of makes me suspect ed that he thinks about like writing a novel that way too well. The author could just solve you know, Wuthering Heights, right, he could have the chet GPT do it.

She could have Jeff PT.

She could have Jeff PT.

He would have survived. In my book, yeah, those kids would have been safe. In The Brothers Karmels.

He would have survived. In my book, yeah, those kids would have been safe. In The Brothers Karmels.

Of Jed GPT accidentally pulled too much from dev into it, and the Gatsby ends with some Captain Kirk and Spock im preg fanfic.

Of Jed GPT accidentally pulled too much from dev into it, and the Gatsby ends with some Captain Kirk and Spock im preg fanfic.

The most curs ever heard.

The most curs ever heard.

But that's the thing. It doesn't feel like anything's being done about this shit? What was it the end of twenty twenty two GPT popped up and now like what was like a year and a half into it, I'm like, oh, great, I can get a pregnant picture of Garfield with an AK forty seven. Great. Now what And you actually kind of made not an identical point. I don't think the Garfield npreg stuff was in there. I have to look again. But you made a similar point where it's like, as a company, you probably don't need AI or you're already using it.

But that's the thing. It doesn't feel like anything's being done about this shit? What was it the end of twenty twenty two GPT popped up and now like what was like a year and a half into it, I'm like, oh, great, I can get a pregnant picture of Garfield with an AK forty seven. Great. Now what And you actually kind of made not an identical point. I don't think the Garfield npreg stuff was in there. I have to look again. But you made a similar point where it's like, as a company, you probably don't need AI or you're already using it.

Yeah, yeah, I mean it's just baked into the software you use.

Yeah, yeah, I mean it's just baked into the software you use.

Right.

Right.

So we did a little bit of work for a managed security provider down here in Melbourne. They have AI in their supply chain, but they don't need data scientists and specialists doing it here. Right. They've got some vendor way upstream, very small company that hires a couple of PhDs. They write some algorithms which are not llm's, just like all school statistical computing to detect when someone's like trying to get into your network.

So we did a little bit of work for a managed security provider down here in Melbourne. They have AI in their supply chain, but they don't need data scientists and specialists doing it here. Right. They've got some vendor way upstream, very small company that hires a couple of PhDs. They write some algorithms which are not llm's, just like all school statistical computing to detect when someone's like trying to get into your network.

You just buy the product from them, right, you.

You just buy the product from them, right, you.

Just sit there And it's the same way we get benefits out of Zoom and YouTube and Twitter or whatever the heck, right, like there's just some stuff baked in the back, like you know, have to stress about it. It is insane how many companies that have no business playing in the space are doing this stuff instead of figuring out things like, you know, staff retention averages one year, how do we get it up to seven? They don't worry about that because they're just fixated on this A I think, I'm I need to calm down because I bus say I'm going to strangle the next person to mention it, but it might come across as more of a legal threat.

Just sit there And it's the same way we get benefits out of Zoom and YouTube and Twitter or whatever the heck, right, like there's just some stuff baked in the back, like you know, have to stress about it. It is insane how many companies that have no business playing in the space are doing this stuff instead of figuring out things like, you know, staff retention averages one year, how do we get it up to seven? They don't worry about that because they're just fixated on this A I think, I'm I need to calm down because I bus say I'm going to strangle the next person to mention it, but it might come across as more of a legal threat.

Calming down is not how better offline works. My Aura ring tells me, I'm working out during the show, so I don't have it on today, sadly. But you mentioned that they should be doing other things, and you actually mentioned in the piece as well, the companies aren't like checking their backups to make sure they work. What should organizations actually be doing instead of AI.

Calming down is not how better offline works. My Aura ring tells me, I'm working out during the show, so I don't have it on today, sadly. But you mentioned that they should be doing other things, and you actually mentioned in the piece as well, the companies aren't like checking their backups to make sure they work. What should organizations actually be doing instead of AI.

Just turn their brains on for like twenty seconds, you know, like it's not hard. They're just so hyper fixated on this. It's not AI. If it's not lllm's or JENAI. It was like older AI. I mean, it's not that it's blockchain, it's not that it's quantum. I went to a talk at a big conference called I would really put them on last year. It went to something Digital Queensland. Last year it was dystopian.

Just turn their brains on for like twenty seconds, you know, like it's not hard. They're just so hyper fixated on this. It's not AI. If it's not lllm's or JENAI. It was like older AI. I mean, it's not that it's blockchain, it's not that it's quantum. I went to a talk at a big conference called I would really put them on last year. It went to something Digital Queensland. Last year it was dystopian.

It was just.

It was just.

Entirely filled with like non technicians. The stage is just filled by people lying to them and half the products are about quantum. And that whole talk, they never explained what quantum was, right. They were just like, quantum is going to revolutionize everything, and I'm in the audience being what the hell does that even mean? Right, what do you mean quantum? But yeah, what they should be doing, it's just like really basic fundamental stuff, right, It's not even interesting, which is why no one wants to do it, because you can't like rocket ship your way to CEO by doing this stuff. But like you need to figure out how to like get your teams out of more meetings. You need to actually spend time with people on the ground and ask them what needs changing in the business. You don't need AI to figure all that stuff out. Just ask a guy who's been there for a while. It's all pretty common sense, and AI is really pulling away from that. We talk a lot about the investment in AIS a waste of money, but there's probably like just as much unrealized opportunity cost in people just wasting my time meetings about it, right, like we could just be doing something else.

Entirely filled with like non technicians. The stage is just filled by people lying to them and half the products are about quantum. And that whole talk, they never explained what quantum was, right. They were just like, quantum is going to revolutionize everything, and I'm in the audience being what the hell does that even mean? Right, what do you mean quantum? But yeah, what they should be doing, it's just like really basic fundamental stuff, right, It's not even interesting, which is why no one wants to do it, because you can't like rocket ship your way to CEO by doing this stuff. But like you need to figure out how to like get your teams out of more meetings. You need to actually spend time with people on the ground and ask them what needs changing in the business. You don't need AI to figure all that stuff out. Just ask a guy who's been there for a while. It's all pretty common sense, and AI is really pulling away from that. We talk a lot about the investment in AIS a waste of money, but there's probably like just as much unrealized opportunity cost in people just wasting my time meetings about it, right, like we could just be doing something else.

I just got back from a trip to Fiji.

I just got back from a trip to Fiji.

And I was volunteered for a tiny bit with my girlfriend and animal's Fiji so they can treat a dog for about thirty Australian dollars. Can you imagine how many dead dogs Open Aye has produced?

And I was volunteered for a tiny bit with my girlfriend and animal's Fiji so they can treat a dog for about thirty Australian dollars. Can you imagine how many dead dogs Open Aye has produced?

Like you could just oh my god, you could just.

Like you could just oh my god, you could just.

Away them, right, it's gonna be hundreds of tons like that.

Away them, right, it's gonna be hundreds of tons like that.

That's not the way way.

That's not the way way.

Way be a little more specific. How did Open Eye kill the dogs?

Way be a little more specific. How did Open Eye kill the dogs?

Well, because we could have just spent the money on the dogs, right, Like you just say, you do the math, right?

Well, because we could have just spent the money on the dogs, right, Like you just say, you do the math, right?

This many dogs worth of potential?

This many dogs worth of potential?

Yeah? Life putting that in the document of if I ever get the Sam Oltman interview, Yeah, Sam, talk to someone who said thirty bugs I can help a dog? How many dogs would you kill to bring KGI to life?

Yeah? Life putting that in the document of if I ever get the Sam Oltman interview, Yeah, Sam, talk to someone who said thirty bugs I can help a dog? How many dogs would you kill to bring KGI to life?

Atally?

Atally?

That's a great one of those things because people there's that talk about how much power does it? Used to ask a question of chant gpt. How much water are we basically pouring on the ground every time we use these models? And it's you could say the same things about every useless thing humans do, but like we mostly don't, right Like. I can say that about like warhammer models, but at the end of the day, you get a warhammer model, right Like, that's why people keep buying that shit as opposed to like at the end of the day, I think a lot of the the ultimate result of a shitload of what's going on in ai AI right now is that briefly a lot of people, hopefully briefly, a shitload of people lose their jobs and customer service gets wildly worse, maybe forever, right Like, That's.

That's a great one of those things because people there's that talk about how much power does it? Used to ask a question of chant gpt. How much water are we basically pouring on the ground every time we use these models? And it's you could say the same things about every useless thing humans do, but like we mostly don't, right Like. I can say that about like warhammer models, but at the end of the day, you get a warhammer model, right Like, that's why people keep buying that shit as opposed to like at the end of the day, I think a lot of the the ultimate result of a shitload of what's going on in ai AI right now is that briefly a lot of people, hopefully briefly, a shitload of people lose their jobs and customer service gets wildly worse, maybe forever, right Like, That's.

That's what we're giving it up for. I would rather have little models.

That's what we're giving it up for. I would rather have little models.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Also, no one's turning up in the public service and going I need ten million dollars to hire someone to paint ultramarines.

Also, no one's turning up in the public service and going I need ten million dollars to hire someone to paint ultramarines.

Right like that right? Not right?

Right like that right? Not right?

They should be maybe in the UK that.

They should be maybe in the UK that.

Would be a better use. At least someone's having fun.

Would be a better use. At least someone's having fun.

You kind of hinted at this in the piece, but where does this actually go? Because it feels like we're hitting a wall with what lllms can do, and there's all of this hype, but there's not that much stuff that's come out of it. What happens. You named a few scenarios, the first being like magic, like just it gets better in two years.

You kind of hinted at this in the piece, but where does this actually go? Because it feels like we're hitting a wall with what lllms can do, and there's all of this hype, but there's not that much stuff that's come out of it. What happens. You named a few scenarios, the first being like magic, like just it gets better in two years.

But otherwise, Yeah, I think realistically the hype just dies down and a lot of people are very very embarrassed by their overinvestment in the space. You'd hope that's the case. It's very possible they'll just kind of get away with it and drift their way into something else, especially you know, if all their CEO friends did the same thing, I don't know who holds them accountable, especially if they're the board was you know, it's a bit like arguing with people who are like late stage Trump supporters, and it's not that they necessarily agree with things he's saying at this point.

But otherwise, Yeah, I think realistically the hype just dies down and a lot of people are very very embarrassed by their overinvestment in the space. You'd hope that's the case. It's very possible they'll just kind of get away with it and drift their way into something else, especially you know, if all their CEO friends did the same thing, I don't know who holds them accountable, especially if they're the board was you know, it's a bit like arguing with people who are like late stage Trump supporters, and it's not that they necessarily agree with things he's saying at this point.

I hope that's not too political for this podcast.

I hope that's not too political for this podcast.

Like yeah, it's just that they've said so many embarrassing things that it's like too late to back out now that you can't even if you write theory, you're like, Okay, you know what he just said something insane. You can't admit that you've been saying insane things for four years, you know, so you're kind of locked in. Yeah, I think the magic scenario is possible. You know, Open Eye has tons of money and a lot of PhDs, but you know they've got they've got people there who know more about the field than I do. Maybe they've got something in the wings that's incredible, but I mean we would there's no need to speculate on that, right, They'll just show us.

Like yeah, it's just that they've said so many embarrassing things that it's like too late to back out now that you can't even if you write theory, you're like, Okay, you know what he just said something insane. You can't admit that you've been saying insane things for four years, you know, so you're kind of locked in. Yeah, I think the magic scenario is possible. You know, Open Eye has tons of money and a lot of PhDs, but you know they've got they've got people there who know more about the field than I do. Maybe they've got something in the wings that's incredible, but I mean we would there's no need to speculate on that, right, They'll just show us.

If they've got something, Yes, do it, Yeah, just do it. We don't need to speculate.

If they've got something, Yes, do it, Yeah, just do it. We don't need to speculate.

And if they do it, I don't even know if investing makes sense because I don't know if like in that universe, stock markets make sense, right, because they're really talking about a level of innovation that would do away with all human labor, So it's all doesn't make sense to put money into them. Then it's all very very strange. What I'm hoping for, to quote my co director ash Leally, the people who did this are going to be the ex body spray of CEOs, Like we'll just be done with.

And if they do it, I don't even know if investing makes sense because I don't know if like in that universe, stock markets make sense, right, because they're really talking about a level of innovation that would do away with all human labor, So it's all doesn't make sense to put money into them. Then it's all very very strange. What I'm hoping for, to quote my co director ash Leally, the people who did this are going to be the ex body spray of CEOs, Like we'll just be done with.

We'll just remember the investment.

We'll just remember the investment.

We'll have all the snippets of them getting on their ted X stages and then hopefully we'll never work with them ever.

We'll have all the snippets of them getting on their ted X stages and then hopefully we'll never work with them ever.

Again, Yeah, Boob.

Again, Yeah, Boob.

Will like, well, it feels like they'll find another grift. But I think that's really the question. So it's not quantum, it's not blog chain, it's not AI. What the hell is next? Like? What now? Where does all of this money and hype go? This is the thing that I feel crazy about. A number of things drive me crazy. It's just where does it go from here? What is the next thing that people even can invest in organizations?

Will like, well, it feels like they'll find another grift. But I think that's really the question. So it's not quantum, it's not blog chain, it's not AI. What the hell is next? Like? What now? Where does all of this money and hype go? This is the thing that I feel crazy about. A number of things drive me crazy. It's just where does it go from here? What is the next thing that people even can invest in organizations?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Well, I mean you know, quantum and blockchain were not very predictable, nor were not the elms. There would there be something, yeah, nerdifiable, And I suspect it's very possible the bubble will not be allowed to pop until there is a new thing because I think the people making this investment also control when.

Well, I mean you know, quantum and blockchain were not very predictable, nor were not the elms. There would there be something, yeah, nerdifiable, And I suspect it's very possible the bubble will not be allowed to pop until there is a new thing because I think the people making this investment also control when.

Yeah, the end, it's a load bearing bubble, right, like yeah, when this things fall down.

Yeah, the end, it's a load bearing bubble, right, like yeah, when this things fall down.

But when you say they won't allow it to what do you mean?

But when you say they won't allow it to what do you mean?

I just have no idea how long the kind of investor class involved in this can just keep pumping money into it, right, I have no idea if they're on their last legs. I don't have a background in international finance. I don't know where the money's coming from it's coming from somewhere. I don't understand because I know they're not making profits right so right, So I don't know if they could keep this going for twenty years if they need to, or if we're six months from some sort of massive collapse. Like you'd have to at an economist in here to comment on that. But I do know it's very likely it will collapse at some point. It's why at Hermit we don't do AI consulting. We could get a lot of work doing it. I just don't think it's you know, we're thinking in a five to ten year time span. I don't think it's sustainable to be in that game.

I just have no idea how long the kind of investor class involved in this can just keep pumping money into it, right, I have no idea if they're on their last legs. I don't have a background in international finance. I don't know where the money's coming from it's coming from somewhere. I don't understand because I know they're not making profits right so right, So I don't know if they could keep this going for twenty years if they need to, or if we're six months from some sort of massive collapse. Like you'd have to at an economist in here to comment on that. But I do know it's very likely it will collapse at some point. It's why at Hermit we don't do AI consulting. We could get a lot of work doing it. I just don't think it's you know, we're thinking in a five to ten year time span. I don't think it's sustainable to be in that game.

It all feels very nihilistic. It all feels just likes grifting each other at this point. Like Microsoft is now the largest customer of Oracle because Oracle is now building data centers for Microsoft to build AI. Yeah. My experience, by which I mean reading a great deal of blogs and earnings is it doesn't seem like anyone's making any money from this, and that seems to be your experience too, right.

It all feels very nihilistic. It all feels just likes grifting each other at this point. Like Microsoft is now the largest customer of Oracle because Oracle is now building data centers for Microsoft to build AI. Yeah. My experience, by which I mean reading a great deal of blogs and earnings is it doesn't seem like anyone's making any money from this, and that seems to be your experience too, right.

I haven't seen any medium sized company that's stabbled in AI make any money off of it. Most of our clients fortunately aren't too deep into it, but they bring us on and ask things like, hey, you know, we just bought this Microsoft product. Can we get it to do the thing it's supposed to do? And the answers almost always know, like there's just no. We mostly help people get out of the AI game, right. They bring us in to help them finish the project, and we mostly point out that they should just cancel the project, and then we go do boring stuff like fix their databases because that's what they should have done five years ago.

I haven't seen any medium sized company that's stabbled in AI make any money off of it. Most of our clients fortunately aren't too deep into it, but they bring us on and ask things like, hey, you know, we just bought this Microsoft product. Can we get it to do the thing it's supposed to do? And the answers almost always know, like there's just no. We mostly help people get out of the AI game, right. They bring us in to help them finish the project, and we mostly point out that they should just cancel the project, and then we go do boring stuff like fix their databases because that's what they should have done five years ago.

And that's kind of what you've been suggesting in the piece as well, that the real problem is organizational failure almost like like I mentioned earlier though unchecked backups. Yeah, yeah, what are other things that people are just not doing? Like what is the actual thing being ignored?

And that's kind of what you've been suggesting in the piece as well, that the real problem is organizational failure almost like like I mentioned earlier though unchecked backups. Yeah, yeah, what are other things that people are just not doing? Like what is the actual thing being ignored?

Well, the thing is, it's like a constellation of things, right. It would be like asking a writer what is the one thing that writer's ignoring. It's about like developing your judgment across like the entire field holistically, but that's really hard and takes a lifetime. So people just fixate on the latest thing and they build their whole career off of that. It takes like thirty seconds of skin being someone's cv to tell when they're full of shit, Like it's really really obvious, who's serious?

Well, the thing is, it's like a constellation of things, right. It would be like asking a writer what is the one thing that writer's ignoring. It's about like developing your judgment across like the entire field holistically, but that's really hard and takes a lifetime. So people just fixate on the latest thing and they build their whole career off of that. It takes like thirty seconds of skin being someone's cv to tell when they're full of shit, Like it's really really obvious, who's serious?

And how do you do it?

And how do you do it?

Tell me again? Even that's a judgment piece, right, But you know, here's a good example. Most organizations I know are really into I don't know if this resonates for non technical people, but there's this thing agile. Everyone's just obsessed with being maximally agile all the time.

Tell me again? Even that's a judgment piece, right, But you know, here's a good example. Most organizations I know are really into I don't know if this resonates for non technical people, but there's this thing agile. Everyone's just obsessed with being maximally agile all the time.

Please please define that. I know what it is, but I'm looking forward to hearing.

Please please define that. I know what it is, but I'm looking forward to hearing.

It's it's meant to be a set of like it's literally like a four or five sentence thing which says you value things like people over processes. Right, it's it's literally five pages. And we've built this entire manic industry of like books and specialists and this all built around these five sentences which just say things like, you know, let people work and pay attention to the human And when you talk to these consultants, you find out they haven't even read those original five sentences.

It's it's meant to be a set of like it's literally like a four or five sentence thing which says you value things like people over processes. Right, it's it's literally five pages. And we've built this entire manic industry of like books and specialists and this all built around these five sentences which just say things like, you know, let people work and pay attention to the human And when you talk to these consultants, you find out they haven't even read those original five sentences.

Right, that's very very common. I hope it's five sentences.

Right, that's very very common. I hope it's five sentences.

It might be that it's again, it's like that copy of a copy right at this point, like the we've gone to Kinko so many times you can't even really tell what's supposed to be written on the sheet. But they all know it's deeply important to run a good.

It might be that it's again, it's like that copy of a copy right at this point, like the we've gone to Kinko so many times you can't even really tell what's supposed to be written on the sheet. But they all know it's deeply important to run a good.

Business like Camino. But all the clones have eight heads, you know, like they'd be right.

Business like Camino. But all the clones have eight heads, you know, like they'd be right.

They no longer look like that very handsome stunt man.

They no longer look like that very handsome stunt man.

Yeah, it almost.

Yeah, it almost.

Feels like the whole DevOps thing that happened. Remember the DevOps boom where I was like, yeah, DevOps is important, and then when I had clients, I was like, what's stevops meaning? To be like wor It's like the developers talk to the business people like why do you need software for that? And they would kind of freeze.

Feels like the whole DevOps thing that happened. Remember the DevOps boom where I was like, yeah, DevOps is important, and then when I had clients, I was like, what's stevops meaning? To be like wor It's like the developers talk to the business people like why do you need software for that? And they would kind of freeze.

That's that's not over. It's just that it's been overshadowed by the AI thing. But so you're agile. We have this whole industry of people who turn up and tell you how to run meetings every day, and it's like, to talk to people, what the hell are you talking about DevOps? People still say that constantly, and it's really just code for like automate your things sensibly, right, there's something useful in there, and the moment someone realized it was useful. We just got another gigantic industry around it. That's where most that's what most of my blog is actually about. The aipiece was just like I've never even written about it before because it was so obviously kind of bullshit. It didn't warrant it until someone really annoyed me last week.

That's that's not over. It's just that it's been overshadowed by the AI thing. But so you're agile. We have this whole industry of people who turn up and tell you how to run meetings every day, and it's like, to talk to people, what the hell are you talking about DevOps? People still say that constantly, and it's really just code for like automate your things sensibly, right, there's something useful in there, and the moment someone realized it was useful. We just got another gigantic industry around it. That's where most that's what most of my blog is actually about. The aipiece was just like I've never even written about it before because it was so obviously kind of bullshit. It didn't warrant it until someone really annoyed me last week.

Yeah, what actually caused you to write that? Was there just a guy?

Yeah, what actually caused you to write that? Was there just a guy?

I think, I, you know, it's been building up for like four years. And then finally I think I put a picture in there of that scale AI survey. Yes, and I just saw that line that was like, was it eight percent of companies have not seen gains from gen AI?

I think, I, you know, it's been building up for like four years. And then finally I think I put a picture in there of that scale AI survey. Yes, and I just saw that line that was like, was it eight percent of companies have not seen gains from gen AI?

And then I chose violence.

And then I chose violence.

You know, this is done some really inventive threats as well. I was very happy to see you say it was you need to you need to replace your sweaters with full plate to survive my onslaught.

You know, this is done some really inventive threats as well. I was very happy to see you say it was you need to you need to replace your sweaters with full plate to survive my onslaught.

I I appreciate that.