And we're all of that, Chris, every little bit of that goes into the episode. I'm Robert Evans, are you hi? This is Behind the Bastards with Matt Leeby I I'm back. How are you feeling learning all this fun stuff about the Boy Scouts of America? All, I'm you know, remember earlier when I was saying I always felt like I missed out and not being a Boy Scout. Yeah, I'm I'm a feeling that that was that was God just looking out for me, because that's gonna get dark. It is it's so fucked up. Like again, not to like center my own experience like in this, but it is weird to me that, Like, again, I know, I've spent all of this time writing twenty pages on how fucked up the Boy Scouts are. I personally have like nothing but positive memories of my time in the Scouts um, and it was it was weird, like I didn't start to recognize because there was We're not talking about a lot of the other stuff that's fucked up about the Boys scaust like everyone knows like they for decades would not let you be gay or trains or whatnot. In the Boys Kicked out. If you came out, you couldn't be an atheist. You had you didn't have to be a specific religion, but you had to you had to acknowledge the existence of a higher power. There's like other stuff that they've been attacked for. And part of the reason why I'm not really focusing on that is that, like, that's bad. That is not something that would render an organization founded in nineteen ten fundamentally unsalvageable. Right, A lot of organizations that old had weird attitudes, bad attitudes towards gay people, even racist attitudes, and can change over time. Be like, well, yeah, the people who founded us believe these things. The fundamentals of our organization are good. Teaching people how to camp. We're we we've we've grown that all. I think that the Boy Scouts could have grown past, you know, the anti LGBT thing, and they have started accepting kids who are gay and trans. I think they could have grown past the restriction to just boys because now they do accept girls. They could have grown past a number of the problematic things. But you cannot grow past is enabling the rape of tens of thousands of boys. That that cannot be redeemed. That's the thing that seems systemic. It's one of it's it's one of those things like, yeah, an organization found in nineteen ten. People who made it probably had some weird beliefs on race and gender, and like, yeah, you can, you can. The organization I think can move past that as long as it acknowledges the flaws of its past and it confronts them head on, which I'm not saying the Boy Scouts did, like they delayed way too long performing on that stuff. But I think that we're like the thing that makes them unsalvageable. The reason I think the Boy Scats just needs to be destroyed as an organization is the mass rape of children. Like that's you can't, there's no no getting past that, moving on a fair that's a fair problem, Yeah, it's Yeah. If not for the mass rape of children, I feel like would be you know, an organization that could make do some reform, move past it's past. Yeah, But it's that little thing where there was a master of children, the tens of thousands, potentially hundreds of thousands of boys raped. Yeah. Yeah, and and thus also creating a cycle of abuse and predation due to the nature of you know, early childhood sexual violence like that alone probably grounds. Yeah, they should destroy the organization. I don't feel differently about the Catholic Church in fairness, Um it is weird, like I can say, because then I grew up very conservative. As I said, I said a number of times if I had been like sixteen in two fourteen, I might have wound up like a right for a while. Um, I was really right wing. Um one of like the first cracks in the armors. When I was I'm not sure if I was seventeen or eighteen. I think it was my senior year of high school. It was an academic to Cathalon, which is like a nerd thing, and we had our own little like classroom. If you were on the team, you could hang out in that classroom in between classes or during lunch, which as a nerdy kid who just wanted to read his Warhammer books, that was nice to do. And so I'm in there one day with another kid on the team, um, who was in the Boy Scouts. We were in different troops, but he was, he was, and he was. I think I actually quit the because I quit the Boy Scouts at like sixteen, fifteen or sixteen, he was still in the Boy Scouts and was like either eighteen or almost eighteen. It was very close to getting his eagle. And you know, he and I were friends. We were sitting in the classroom one day and kind of in the middle of just sort of like we're both reading separate books quietly alone in this room, he just looks up at me and tells me that he's gay. And this is the first person I ever met who like I knew was gay, who would like that I had talked to me about it. Um and um. I said, oh, okay. And and he immediately after that because it just like I think he just had to tell somebody just burst out of him immediately after they said, please don't tell anybody, Like the most important thing in the world to me is finishing my eagle Scout, is like getting my eagle Scout, like and they won't let me. And that was that was like for me a moment of left like that's really fucked up, actually that this kid's this kid who clearly loves the Boy Scouts, is dedicated to like what this organization stands for, is terrified of being kicked out for just like something like it was just very obvious in that moment, like, oh, yeah, that's clearly not a choice. Like the way he told me about it was just like this he had to let somebody know, is this thing that was? I don't know. That was a moment for me. Um, and like, uh, just a, I know that. That's when I first started to think really critically about the Boy Scouts as an organization. Um, because again, I grew up in this right wing you know bubble um, And I guess I think it's it's like that one way or another for a lot of people, like you live in this kind of ideological bubble until you like meet someone who's you care about, whose life experience contradicts the things that you just never thought about before. Oh I'm wrong about some really important ship. Yeah. Sometimes it just takes that, you know, having an actual one on one or just a human experience to get you outside of like kind of the the strict dogmatism of your like inherited ideology where you're just like, you know, of course I'm a libertarian. My dad's a libertarian and he raised me to be libertarian, you know. And then uh, and then you you know, you live life and you meet people who you know, in which the government was actually uh a necessary entity in their life, and you're like a ship. Like you know, people who just grow up in a bubble. I think as soon as they have that you know, bubble bursts a little bit, then they can kind of move past whatever you know, do ye ideology they have Yep. It is that thing where like the Republican politicians who have like a life experience that doesn't fit in with conservatism are like the ones who have these very public like John McCain arch Republican and everything but torture because he was tortured. It was very consistently like, no, we can't, this is not okay. Uh, Dick Cheney arch Republican and everything but gay rights because the daughters gay, and he's like yeah, um, it's just yeah, I mean that's just how people are, I guess. So the Boy Scouts of America began operating what they called an ineligible volunteer file system in nineteen nineteen, so they did impel still alive when they this is like they and this is not just even primary, this is not primarily about sexual assault. This is obviously You've got this growing organization, a bunch of men join it, and for one reason or another, they do not meet the standards that the b s A does have for adult volunteers. And they're not screening people, but people who do the job and are bad at it. And I think most of these people again, are not molesting kids. They're like they get some kids killed on a hike or some ship. Right, Like they're they're irresponsible, you know, like there's a lot of ways to be bad at being a scat past. You know, you're taking kids into the woods, a number of things can go awry. Um usually pedophilia isn't the first problem when you're stranging alone in the woods with an adult, but you would think, yeah, and most of the men in the ineligible volunteer files had not purposefully harmed a child. They had just like funked up in some way, probably some way that's like still deplorable, but like not they're not trying to harm anybody. A subset, though, of the ineligible volunteer list are men who had been caught or at least accused of molesting the children in their care. This subset of the Ineligible Volunteer system were dubbed the p files or perversion files. Yeah. Yeah. I thought they would go with yeah yeah, not pedophile, pederist. I mean it's a lot of rape. Yeah yeah. So this starts in like the twin problematic files, Yeah, the problematic So when Maiden peals alive, they do like attempt to and again they don't attempt to by screening people beforehand, but they do attempt to be like, oh, we should if a guy gets kicked out for raping a kid, we should probably put his name in a file somewhere. We should we should probably write this down. Which is the minimum, the barest minimum. I just want to remember his name. You have a list of the guy, as you who sucked the kids in our care? If I can also get their phone numbers, just so we can talk and just see if they have photos exactly? Do you want to go to the lake? Oh, Biden pal So. In nineteen the list was computerized, but there's still existed a hard copy, and there is still one today, which reportedly fills fifteen file cabinets at the b s A headquarters in Irving, Texas. Only a handful of men at the very top of the organization can access them. In the b S as the Boy Scouts of America. So I should know when we talk about this, this is all focused on the b s A, which is not technically the organization Biden Pal founded, because it's very decentralized. There's like the different countries, they're different like organizations right effectively kind of corporations almost um. And they're all kind of like linked and related to each other, and they do gamberally people get together from different countries. But in the b s A is made in the image of what Biden Pal talks about. I'm sure there is a lot on like abuses in like England and great in the UK and in like other countries. The vast majority of the the the documentation on abuse within the Boy Scouts is within the b s A. And so that's what we're focusing on here today. Um. So, for decades the files were either entirely unknown or at most a rumor to those outside the organization. They would occasionally make appearances, though by the time Lord Biden Powell died in nineteen forty one, there had already been multiple cases of child molesters who had been caught and convicted for what they've done as Boy Scout leaders. This pattern continued up to the present day, and when those cases would end in criminal charges and trials, files on the perpetrator would often be admitted into evidence, usually under seal. This most frequently happened in the latter half of the twentieth and early twenty first century, when boys and groups of boys began to allege that what had happened to them, the abuse they had suffered, was not an isolated incident, but was instead the result of a pattern of abuse within the organization. The files contain often harrowing firsthand accounts from victims, like this interview with a ten year old scout in nineteen seventy to the victim of a sexual assault by Georgia troop leader Samuel Max Deboa Jr. Quote, I was crying and I reached around and hit Max in the face and said I was going to quit the troop and tell my daddy. Then we heard the others coming back and Max said, put your pants back on. Yeah, that's like one of the less harrowing ones. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna read in detail, but we will discuss what happened, like read detailed accounts of kids getting molested here, but you do need to know like what broadly occurred, you know cases that is important. Um, the p files at least were something. Um, so it's better than certainly doing nothing at all. But as a barrier to the assault of boys in care of the Boy Scouts of America, they were incredibly porous. To illustrate this, let's start with an illustrative case of abuse among the Boy Scouts from a little more than a generation after Baden Powell's death. Stephen Field was a troop leader in southern California. The B s A started investigating him in nineteen seventy one after a scout in Santa Monica reported that he had been sexually abused by Field. A troop committee which included parents, B s A officials, and a psychiatrist. So that's good, right, You're bringing like, not just parents but a professional in Um, that's a positive way to look at things, right. Uh this I feel this feels like the doctor thing for last episode. I don't trust that. I'm quite so this this committee is convened and they look at the evidence and they conclude that the story was truth. This kid had been abused. What Field had done with sexual abuse. Their investigation, in fact, found not only to abuse this kid, but he had a pattern of what could credibly be called criminally sexual behavior, including forcing his boy scouts to play strip poker and run around naked after losing games, which is not ever like there's there's that's not even like a gray air. Yeah, strip poker is not really inside the boy scouts milieu, you know. And also like running around naked is not part of it. That's never you know, you can play well, I mean it kind of is from the start actually, but it shouldn't have been. We're just finding new and clever ways to get kids to run around naked. Yeah, And it's what it is when we talked about like naked swimming, running around naked, Like I believe very strongly that like nudities, there's nothing wrong or inherently sexual about nudity. It be like this thing where the idea that like people are doing things naked is like lascivious. Clearly Baden Powell and a number like the men and like found it lascivious, and so that's a problem. Like, yeah, it ended up being one of their favorite things. Yeah, that's an issue. That's going to be an issue, you know. Um yeah, Um, So they find out. This guy not only molests this kid, but he has a history of very like criminal. I suspect it as illegal to make children play strip poker. Like I think that is a crime. Not a law knower, but that seems crimy. It's I don't know the exact number, shoot, but like that seems not legal. It seems like like a thing you would use. That seems like a thing we don't allow. Like I happen to think that's against some law. It's got to be in there somewhere, probably the delinquency of a miner or something. I don't know, um whatever, some something not right about that, um. But the Boy Scouts don't report him to the police. They don't report him to anyone. In fact, they remove him, they kick him out of the Boy Scouts. But the only report they make about this is from a regional Boy Scouts employee who fills out a form on Field and sends it to headquarters, and that form is placed in the p files. So that's all that happens. National officials told the regional official that this meant that Fields would never be able to work in or volunteer for the Boy Scouts again. And yet from a report in the Los Angeles Times quote. He was involved with several Southern California troops over the next seventeen years. According to his file. Contacted recently by The Times, Field explained that he failed a light detector test required by the Santa Monica Troop committee. He was encouraged to transfer to another troop in the city, where he served as scout master for four years. They sent him he fails a light detector and they're like, you just gotta go to another troupe. Bro, Oh my god, what the fuck? Just do what they do at the corner liquor store when someone has fucking put a picture of him up on the wall. What a picture on the wall? Just say not that guy. That's It's so easy, dude, Oh my god, your job is protecting children. Show at least as much care as a liquor store clerk over a bounced check. Like fuck, So the fucking Field tells the Los Angeles Times. They said it had all been cleared up with the scouts, Like I don't how do you clear this out? In Valencia, he joined his brother in law's troop, but left after a parent intercepted a love letter he had written to a Scout. The file shows. At one point, the file says Field was caught watching pornography with naked scouts in his jacuzzi. Jesus, fuck one. Seventeen years of this, come on, seventeen years. This isn't like, you know. Twenty years later he changed his name and his identity and moved across the country and he just stuck his way into it. No, he just shows up. One group is like, yeah, you failed the I promise not to molest kids part of the light detector. Here, go to this other group. Bring your jackuzy with you. You're out of the Silmar chapter of the Scouts. And you know what Glendale's recruiting. Yeah, oh my god, super fucked up. Like again, there were in it's height, like seven million boys in the Boy Scouts. Some of them were always and I'm not being callous here, it is inevitable in any population of seven million boys, some of them will get molested by adults. Right. The fact that this is a thing that happens is not inherently the fall of the Boy Scouts, But as this example shows, they are criminally irresponsible in taking any attempts to stop it. That's the problem. It's not that like there are some bad apples. It's that they're kind of like the cops. They just like they enable the bad apples. Yeah, it's like they literally have a basket of like with a with a foundation of poison and they're going on, some of these apples are bad. It's like you're poisoned the best you poured cyanide into an apple basket and then you're pissed in it. This is directly your fault. Yeah. Now, among other things, that story is why I think Jacuzi ownership should require a license. Um. But besides, that's another two part. Now, despite the fact that this guy had repeatedly engaged I think we can agree it's pretty outrageous and public abuse of children. The s A National office didn't realize he'd snuck back into the organization until nine again, almost twenty years, and they only realized this because another local scouting official reported that Steve Field, who was at that point chairman of a local troop committee, had been arrested for masturbating in front of a child. So he doesn't get kicked out by the boy Scouts, he gets arrested by the cops, and a local scout is like Hey, you guys should know this guy. Turns out he was a child molester. This local official doesn't know this guy as a record, but he sends this in to report this guy. And the people who run the PEA files are like, oh, Steve Field, it's the same as Stephen Field. How could we have known? Because ingenious criminal mind. They're just like the cop comes and goes like, oh, this you know this guy he's got arrested, you know, for masturbation, and they're like, oh, you mean creepy Steve. Steve the rapist. Steve the rapist is yeah, he's been doing that. He's been doing that for a while. Why we call him creepy Steve? Yeah, wacky Steve don't leave alone with your kids anyway, is in charge of the kids. So, for what it's worth. Once the Sheriff's department actually got involved with Steve's case, which should have fallen into their lap around twenty years earlier, they launch a serious investigation. Um and again all of the police aside. One of the things they have a better record of taking seriously, although not a perfect one, because a lot of cops are child molesters, generally detectives who find out the kids are being raped, are like, well, this is probably important. It's like, it's just the thing. Even if you're a fucking cop. Most people you hear a child as being abused and you're like, well, yeah, we gotta about this. Yeah, most cops, uh, you know, obviously a cab, but not a you know, can all cops students deliberately enabled child molestation whatever that they hear about this guy And generally this is the case like twenty years in like with these abusive adults. And that's when finally ship happens. This guy gets arrested, and it's because like the b s A can't hide it anymore. Um. Child pornography was found in fields as home of photos he'd taken of nude boys. Nude boy scouts as far back as fifteen years ago are found. And when the cops realize this guy has been praying on boy scouts for more than a decade, they asked the National Office, you can have a file on this guy, and the B s A sends the p file for for Fields to or for Field to them, but they send it along with a request. And here's the a cab part. Because the cops abide by this request. We hope you will use this information with discretion. Since we have tried to maintain our files, they cannot be subpoenaed in any legal action. Wow. If again, if you're of cops are better people than they are, if you're a decent person, my first question would be, this guy raped kids. Why don't you want this subpoena? Like why why why? Why? Why? Why? And any why are you not like throwing your doors open to to this, Like why why not let this be? He's raping kids? Like God, I mean, so the cops they abided by just an arbitrary like, oh, if you could do us a favor, and like they're probably all boy scouts, a lot of cops, Like fucking half of congress people were boy Scouts, Like have congressmen or whatever, like a huge percentage, Like all almost all of our recent presidents have been either boy Scouts or equal Scouts. Like it actually does mean a lot to a lot of it. So like there's a story that could have gone badly from my childhood. When I was a kid, I think like thirteen or fourteen, I would go every Saturday, I would go with my friends to a hobby story and we would play Warhammer, and then we at one point started wanting to play D and D, which I started playing in the Scouts, and like the people who we found to play with us were this guy was like nineteen at the time, he just graduated high school and was in college. And a dude who was almost thirty, um, who's like an engineer, and that dude invites us all like, well, on Saturday night since the hobby shop closes like five, just come over to my house, um, and we'll all play D and D until like midnight. And like my parents here this and they're like, okay, well that's a little quite. He's like almost thirty, like this concerns us. And this other guys in a old too, but both of them were Eagle Scouts. So my parents were like okay, and it was like they were like there was fine, like nothing, like these people were huge positive influences on me. Like I don't want to like I'm trying. They were both very positive parts. But you like that's why my parents trusted them as they were right. There's an intrinsic intrinsic trust and like, oh, these people are part of this organization that I have nothing but my dad was an Eagle Scout you know. Um. Yeah. So anyway, just culturally this, I think this is part of why the cops play ball with the B s A for so long and don't make more of an issue about this, is that like a lot of them were probably boys get someone. They were probably trip leaders, you know. You know, there were a bunch of like cop kids and stuff in Boy Scouts when I was in the Scouts. Um, obviously, but I mean it's it's kids getting fucked. It's like that's why. Yes, yeah, But I think from the cops pursuit was like, well, we're getting this guy, and we don't like to we don't want to tarnish because their cops like they protect organizations from shitty They're like cops are often horrified at things other cops do. They just cover it up because they believe in the institution. I think. So I think they're they're they're willing to do that for the Boy Scouts, but they have so much room for It's just it's like it's one of things. It's like not just sending it, like I'm just explaining the thought process, and I think it's just thinking about it. It's like if I'm a cop, and I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna back up. All these cops don't matter fucking what. And then someone throws out another organization like, oh yeah, this is like the rape organization, Like al right, I have room in my Laurel compass for one more organization to defend. It is worth noting that at this point they're not thinking about this is the rape organization. This is the seventies, this is the Boy Scouts. This we don't want to let another this is already terrible. We don't want to also defame this beautiful organization. And you know it does a lot of good at the same time. Um, it is not until I think the first really big academic quality work on sexual abuse within the Boy Scouts is that book we've been quoting from Scouts on it, which we'll have LinkedIn. The whole book is available online right now. Is published in nineteen ninety four by guy named Patrick boyle Um. And it was, I mean it was. I don't think it did super well at the time. Obviously, I think he got a lot of ship for publishing it, but it's not a fun read of the heroes in this story one of them has to be Patrick Boyle for being in like, people need to know that this is a systemic problem, and it was not until three or four years ago that it became mainstream knowledge how systemic the problem was. He's well the curve, yeah, because I I started hearing about this stuff with the Yeah yeah, and the fact that this book came out ye is crazy to me. Yeah yeah. And you know what else is ahead of the curve is the products, the products and services that support this podcast, way ahead of the curve. The Patrick Boils of their day. Good say, Okay, we're back. So Fields or Field gets arrested for abusing two thirteen year old boys and sentence to twelve years in prison when the l A. Times found him. Because he's out of prison by the time, these l. A Times articles are very recent, we'll talk about why. And I'm reading from a bunch of different l. A. Times articles because they have done as far as I can find, the best journalistic reporting on on abuse within the boy scouts. Um So, when they find this guy, right, because he's he's out of prison now he's working, I think he's a fucking lawyer or something. Um No, might have been in finance. I forget exactly, but they find him. He's like out in free and like working, and they interviewed him and he admitted to abusing the kids he'd been convicted of abusing, but the night allegations that he'd abused any other kids, even though absolutely of course, but the kids. Yeah, The Times informed him that he'd been on a blacklist since nineteen seventy one in the Boy Scouts. And when they said, like, did you know the Boy Scouts had a file blacklisting you? He told them like, no, I had no idea. That's surprising because I was able to stay in the Boy Scouts for years. Yeah, the Boy Scouts. The child molester told them it's like a no fly list. If your name is on the no fly list, you shouldn't be able to get on a plane. Like the pedophile is baffled by how easy it was for him to get back into the Boy Scouts, Like, yeah, they really shouldn't have allowed this. You're not wrong, pedophile, But like, yeah, you're not wrong. This was like a miscarriage of justice to me. Yeah, as the guy who raped those kids, you have adequately accurately identified the issue or molested, Like I don't know, like so yeah, and it is that really Like that goes to show how fucked up the B s A is because when the pedophile your organization allowed you repeatedly harmed children in your care, throw shade on you for your irresponsibility and letting him in. That's a that's a that's an epic funk up like you have failed so comprehensively. I don't have a word for it. Yeah, that's a. There's a signal there. Yeah. Yeah. That Times article goes on to tell the story of Scout Master Allan C. Dunlap of Fresno, California, who was arrest to in nineteen seventy three on suspicion of having abused several children. Done Lap pled guilty to four counts of molestation and was committed to a psychiatric hospital. The Scouts created yet another P file on him. Thirteen years later, in nineteen eighties six, Dunlap was out of the hospital and registered is a Scout volunteer in Brian, Texas. It isn't yeah, you're gonna be saying that a lot, my friend. It does not appear that anyone even checked the blacklist before registering him, which gets at the chief problem with the whole system. The B s A actually did a pretty good job of documenting guys who had been caught or accused of sexual assault. Right, they're very thorough in like when stuff gets in they do put it all on this file. But there's still no I can remember Baden Powell doesn't want there to be a big barrier to entry. There's for most of this period, the sixties, seventies, eighties, there's no real screening process. Most again, as we said, like that one Scout troop had like they chose to do like a polygraph test, which polygraphs are problematic, and obviously they just sent him to another troops. So like it there there are there are though it's worth it an individual because it's a very decentralized organization. Some troops do have really good, like you know, uh policies in order to screen people, but nationally there's nothing, and this blacklist only a handful of people at the top have access to it, and they don't run every name through it like there's now when a guy joins a Scout troop and fucking Texas they don't, or in fucking like I don't know, Maine, they don't send his name into the national file to scan it. They do nothing. They only find out afterwards, so it's useless. It's fucking other than like as documentation that a lot of guys are repeatedly molesting kids in the Boy Scouts. It's it's just a fun way to get a nice list going, but there's nothing. It does nothing to protect children are very close. The boys goes, well, no, there's actually this X number of men that we stopped because they were in the blacklist and someone recognized it. Not to say it never happened, but like clearly it was not an effective protecting system and they knew it at the time. UM so yeah, of course. Uh So after this guy gets you know this, this dude is arrested and kicked out of the Scouts and seventy three after abusing some children. Thirteen years later, he becomes a Scout volunteer in Bryan, Texas, um and he immediately gets back to sexually assaulting children. He was eventually caught and pled guilty to abusing a nine year old cub Scout. He was sentenced to twelve years in prison. A local official learned this and called the National bs A office to report Dunlap so he could be added to the p files. And the National Office realized already had a file on the guy. They added, here's what they do. Actually, it's even worse than that. They just add a note to his file for words convicted again, Dad, child molestation, Jesus Christ. Come on, guys, attendum he done it again, He done it again. We might have a problem. D This is all pretty bad, but it gets worst worse. Both of those actually the l A Times rites quote. In some instances, the Boy Scouts of America chose to give alleged molesters a second chance. In deposition, Ernst, then keeper of the national file, testified that alleged abusers were given probation, which required periodic updates on the person's behavior, only if evidence of molestation was quote extremely weak. An individual's confidential file was generally destroyed after probation was completed, but the file sometimes survived when the men went on to abuse again. Several of those cases suggests the initial evidence of abuse was strong. Again. The b s A policy is air on the side of believing the child molester when he denies having molests a kid. Oh my god, God, yeah, and I'm sure that you could find there's there have to be statistically millions of people a couple of cases of kids who lied because they were angry at it, and I'm sure it happened. Umatistically, we have thousands, like hundred, minimum hundreds and hundreds and and probably like by some accounts, thousands of cases of people molesting kids repeatedly within the Boy Scouts like there, but again they are on the side of protecting the adult, not children. In their entire job should be to protect these children, right, I mean, that's literally what their their job is. It's like teaching them how to fend for themselves. I mean, my my scout master, who was I mean, he was a great Scout master. He did something horrible for Raytheon that we don't know entirely what, Like a bunch of the guys who taught me at a camp were all Raytheon engineers. It's like plain oh like that's but anyway, he, like his attitude was, my only job is to stop kids from dying. So like, you go out there, he'll teach you to He would teach us anything we wanted to learn. He would help us learn, but he didn't do anything for you. So if you were miserable for days, if you funked up, if your ship got soaked, if you like lit your tent on fire, like you can camp out under the stars or whatever, Like, my only job is to stop you from dying, because it's about self reliance. Um, but it's still very He took safety, like our physical health, very seriously, and that's not what the Boy Scouts are, protecting the adults above the children, like the organization nationally. And again, I had a lot of great Scout leaders who, while they may have been war criminals, UM, always put the safety of the kids in the in the Boy Scout American kids. I didn't know what raytheon was at the time, not the Iraqi kids. I mean, good, God only knows what they were actually like working on. UM. But yeah, you can only care about so many kids, Robert, Yeah you can look um so uh. For an example of how the Boy Scouts would protect and give second chances to child molesters, let's talk about Mark F. Bum Garner. He was a twenty one year old assistant Scout master in North Carolina. In September nine, he was at Camp Shield helping to manage a camp with several other adult leaders. Late one night, after most scouts and adults had went to bed, he struck up a conversation with another boy. I think they're just like sitting around a camp fire and they talk for a while. Everybody else goes to sleep, and quite suddenly, when they're alone, bum Gardner sticks his hand into the boy's pants and fondles his genitals. The boy tells him to stop, so bum Garner says, the cartilage in your penis is similar to your nose, and I can break it Jesus. Yeah. Yeah, So I mean, like I try not to get on the whole, like you know, vengeance side of things. But just shoot that guy. Yeah, just just shoot that guy. We don't need that guy. Kill that Yeah, just kill that It's just like, you know, sometimes you fantasize about a righteous kill, you know, yeah that would yeah, just just a little little little shallow grave in the woods, you know, just like just the planet benefits a little bit this one murder. I think when you threaten to break a child's penis when your hand, if he tells about you molesting him, you don't deserve to live that anymore. That's that's the that's the end of your right to exist, I argue it is my opinion. It's funny because, like before this podcast, I never thought there were levels of pedophilia in which I would that. That's a high one, right, yeah, that's one. I was like, Oh, he's like, I mean, yeah, pedophilia is evil, but he's like evil and evil. Yeah, he's I think the pedophiles are disgusted by that. Like he could not Yeah anyway like that. He that's like the worst level probably of pedophilia that I can imagine, is that's that kind of thing. Yeah, that's that's the top of the pedophile pyramid. Um. So, after this horrifying experience, the kid went to his father, who reported this to the Boy Scouts rather than to the police. The b s A investigated the matter, and, after what the National Office described as a considerable discussion, decided that bum Garner deserved a second chance. Of all would be it would be still bad, but different if was like, well he was caught, um, you know, massaging a boy in his jacuzzi and the boy's shirt was off, and like whatever, like that's bad to to let that go on. He threatened to break a child's penis. Give a second chance, to that. Jesus. Fuck. Yeah. The reason why is because bum Garner was an Eagle Scout and the son of the pastor whose church sponsored the troop. Yeah there it is, Yeah, there it is. So he kept working for the Boy Scouts, spending time in close proximity with children absolutely unmonitored. He was arrested several months later for sexually abusing two Scouts during a camp out. He pled guilty and was expelled by the National Office, who added yet another name to the p files six years later. Oh yeah, you thought this was done. You thought we were done with bum Garner. Come on. Six years later, bum Garner gets out of jail and back into the Boy Scouts. He moves from North Carolina to Virginia and he becomes assistant District commissioner to the Fairfax Boy Scouts. This was nineteen eighty four. It was two years later, nineteen six before the National organization realized that this peedoophile had gotten back in. They didn't find it out on their own. They was convicted, convicted pedophile. Yeah, and they only find out that he's gotten back in because he gets convicted again. He gets caught sexually battering two boys and sentenced to six years in prison. Just like, just how could we have known? What? How could we have known? Every single time? This is the Los Angeles Times continues. Probation was also given to Floyd David Slusher, a nineteen year old stafford a Boy Scout camp in Germany who was caught up using a scout in nineteen seventy two and sent home to the United States. Even after he was caught, they had to physically restrain him from attempting to visit the scout he was molesting, A scout's official wrote to headquarters. A file was opened, but Slusher was allowed to continue working with scouts again. Another voy Scout leaders like this guy is such fucking pedophile that we had to physically stop him from going after this kid after we caught him. Like it's like a cartoon of a pedophile. Yeah yeah, family, boy scouts are like, this guy deserves a second chance. When did the second chance program started? Because you hear that, like, oh, they gave a second chance, you assume it's something like, oh, he like showed them some weird pictures and they decided there was plausible, which again is not okay. But no, these guys are like this is hardcore shitvicted fu rapists. Yeah, and they're just like, yeah, I feel like we give him a second chance. We had to see we had to physically restrain the guy from doing formalistation. Yeah, like come on, let me go. There was romantic So Slusher also shouldn't let a guy named Slush or do damn near anything. Thatsolutely okay name. That's not an okay name. Um, So he's allowed to keep working with the scouts, and he goes on to molest at least eight boys in a Boulder, Colorado troop, threatening to kill them if they told anybody. According to the Boulder County Sheriff's apartment, Yeah yeah, yeah, um. The detective in Boulder County wrote, quote, almost every boy scout in Troops seventy five and Troops seventy three has been approached sexually by Slusher on one time or another, adding that the victims are too numerous to interview the things like I can't interview all the kids he molested because like, I don't have that kind of time. The Boulder police don't have the time to top to all of this. We're not authorizing any ot right now, so we can investige single person. I mean, in fairness, they probably had plenty to put him away, and he pleads guilty to one account of sexually assaulting a child. Um. The Boy Scouts continued the practice of offering probation and suspension to prominent men accused of abuse until as the result of a high profile abuse case in San Mateo, California. Richard Stengler was the adult head of a Sea Scout It's unit, which is kind of like a for older boys closer to adulthood, like elite, Like you're doing like boat shit right, like it's doing cool stuff. It actually was the thing I wanted to do, but Texas is not as easy to do that kind of Um So like the Boy Scout Navy, Yeah, the Boy Scout Navy. Yeah, um you gotta. So that's always a red flag where your organization starts and they have a Navy. It's especially a red flag for the Navy. Yeah. I think all the Marines in the audience would agree with that. Um So, like you know, there's the goop cruise like that. You know, it's like the boys. When you take to see probably an issue. You know, someone says, you know, good people don't take to see by the way, I'm crowdfunding to buy a yacht for all of my followers to live on. We're gonna sail around the ocean. We're gonna look for gold. Um. It's international waters anything, international waters, baby any there's no laws in international water. Our own society are civilization, Sophie, come on, come no hub Um alright, well, here's some ads. We're back. I'm just sad, Symphie won't let me, won't let me. Hubbard alright, well okay, so um. This guy, Richard Steingler Uh in seventy one is the head of a sea Scouts unit, and in seventy one he gets charged with tying up and groping three boys. This was the thing I alluded to in the first episode with the restraints. Um, is that like a not do you get a merit badge for? Yeah? I mean it's unfortunate to say this, but a boy Scout troop leaders probably in the most able to tie up a boy because he's probably pretty good at knots. That really makes that merit badge a lot darker, does it does? It's not great? It's not great. Um. So he gets convicted and sent in seventy one and sentenced to three years of probation, which I might argue the court system failed there too, because I think tying up and groping boys probably more than three years probation, longer for like smoke hot for like pot. Yeah. Yeah, Anyway, the Scouts suspended him during this period, but they didn't kick him out. When his probation ended, a local Scout executive and a number of parents lobbied for his suspension to be lifted. So clearly this guy had some sort of charism was good at like convincing parents. I don't know what he fucking told them, maybe like it was a merit badge thing gone wrong. Um, but parents lobby for this guy, which is settling. I mean, this is not again, we this is not an unheard of kind of situation like this. This occurs in other organizations and whatnot. Um sure, it's just like I mean, yeah, actually to me, the Catholic Church, you know, not Yeah, but but I understand a little bit more having like basically the guy who talks to God being an important figure in your life, and yeah, and like like standing up for the organization and the church and maybe even a specific priest in the church who's been accused of something because you're like that dude talks to God. Who am I to question that guy? These are fucking volunteer Scout master. These are doing like cosplay and teaching know how to whittle, and they're just like no, But he's a good dude. Yeah, he's he's good like it. I mean, there's actually just a tremendous amount in common with like the Boy Scouts and how this works and like, um in the Catholic Church. Yeah, um, yeah, okay, um, all right, Jesus Christ, let's get back into this. So, so this guy, after tying up and molesting several boys, just three years probation and when it ends, he gets successfully reinstituted to the Boy Scouts. The local Scout officer who lobbied for him being brought back again, wrote quote, I feel quite confident that no further problems will arise. Just fucking just an organization of marks. Everyone is a fucking mark. Yeah. Fourteen years later, in nine nine, a parent reported that Stinger had padlocked her eleven year old boy in a harness and watched as he hung in the air during a boat trip. So that's good, that's fine. The b s a called the police, and the police go to Stinger's home and they search it and they find dozens of restraints and an enormous cash of child pornography, naked photos that he took of boys that he had blindfolded, um and like tied to things. At least one is a picture of a naked six year old boy that he blindfolded and tied to a bed um like profound child abuse on a Yeah, and again they catch him fourteen years later. He's doing this the whole time. That's what the photos show that he'd been the whole time. He gets back and he's just tying up in the lasting. They call. They called the cops when he what did he do to the kid? He like tied him up? He yeah, he I don't even know if this was sexual, if he was just like being a dick. Probably both. But he'd like padlocked an eleven year old boy in a harness and hung him in the air during a boat trip. So his mom is just like, that's physical. Be I don't think she called it in a sexual but she was just like, that's assault. That's when they called the cos. Yeah, I mean, his mom calls the cops, like her credit. This is probably the first she's a wearing anything's wrong and she I mean he was like, yeah, we need to deal with this ship. And the cops search his house and find out that he has been tying up and restraining and molesting kids for fourteen years and has tons of pictures of it. So this guy's like both like a sexual abuser and just a literal fucking psychopath. Yeah yeah, this guy's not that there's bets of both, but dangerous, dangerous person. Yeah fucking ship. So when all this dropped, more than twenty four former and current Scouts came forward to report that they had been abused by Stinger. Some had been victimized as early as nineteen fifty eight. Up until two thousand fifteen, the Chief Scout Executive, effectively the head of Boy Scouts, was a guy named Wayne Brock. Wayne got that August position in two thousand twelve after a four year stint as the Deputy Chief Scout Executive. Before he held this national position in seven, Wayne was the local Boy Scouts executive for the state of Georgia. That year, a Scout master at a camp in his domain was accused of molesting a boy in a sleeping bag. Wayne followed procedure, which at the time meant documenting the allegation and sending that documentation onto Texas. The leader's name and crimes were added to the confidential files. The scout master was expelled, but the police were not informed. He left town, Rock was promoted again and again, and eventually wound up running the Boy Scouts as a different Los Angeles Times article notes quote. As he and his recent predecessors rose through the ranks of Scouting, they handled at least a hundred and twenty cases of suspected sexual abuse dating from the mid nineteen seventies, according to a Times analysis of constant confidential Boy Scout files. As district executives, it was their job to gather evidence and witness statement, determined whether to recommend a leader's expulsion, and report their findings to headquarters, which made the final decision. In the process, the officials had a front row seat on cases in which scoutings abuse prevention policies failed. Although the officials may have followed Scout policy and violated no laws, the files in several cases indicate that they did not inform authorities or their communities of suspected child molesters who were expelled from the organization. So this is the guy who runs the Boy Scouts, right, his history, which is, you know, he's not a molester himself, but he has a, shall we say, imperfect history of dealing with cases where kids are molested and they all all of their last names are just read we got Stinger, we got Brack, we got Slusher. Yeah. Yeah, like problems, I mean, just like they sound like a really scary a team. Yeah. So this is the guy who runs the Boy Scouts um and his predecessor, the guy who had headed the b s A before him, was a guy named Robert Mazuka. And before Robert Scary I know, I know, and before he ran the Boy Scouts, Mazuka spent twenty years as a regional Scout executive in California. In Pennsylvania, he dealt with numerous cases of child sexual abuse by adults and scouting. One of these was the case of David Cooley, an assistant Scout master in Pittsburgh who was expelled in nineteen nine seven after police found videos that he'd made of himself having sex with children. Cooley was eventually sentenced to fifty four years in prison. When the case broke, it came out that Mazuka had earlier been arrested and convicted in nineteen eighties seven from molesting a boy in South Carolina. He'd been allowed to volunteer and scouting and molest kids after that because the Boy Scouts did not require background checks at that point. And this brings us to a particularly dark part of the story. Oh are we going to get dark now? We're finally gonna get dark man. Yeah. So, if you'll remember, back at the very start of this story, back at the very start of Scouting, Robert Baden Powell had rejected the idea that scouting volunteers should be filtered under the stification that this would reduce the number of adults who volunteered and slow expansion. Now, at that time, even though kids were being molested, child sexual abuse was not a widely understood phenomenon. By the nineteen eighties, this had changed. A number of high profile cases of abuse of children had led several other leading youth groups to institute criminal background checks for their adult volunteers. Criminal background checks first became widely possible in nineteen eight five UM and in nineteen eighties six, the Big Brothers Big Sisters organization made this a requirement for volunteers, and the Boys and Girls Club did the same thing in the same year. As soon as this becomes possible, responsible organizations who take care kids are like, well, of course we should do criminal background checks and our adult volunteers obviously, Um, that just makes sense. The Boy Scouts don't do this. Scouting officials claimed that background checks would be too expensive and would scare away volunteers too expensive. Again, it's it would have cost tens of millions. They made hundreds of millions. Yeah, I was gonna say the Boy Scouts they don't have the money hash during period. Yeah, everyone's a volunteer or pays, so they said that. They also argued that doing so would it best to provide a false sense of security. Just read how many stories of guys with criminal records getting back in the Boy Scouts. Um, they're like, listen, it's gonna happen one way or another. Let me let me promise you. Even with criminal background checks were not kind of stop kids from adults from lasting. Kids don't like that's just gonna do it. It's still got to happen. But our job is to help Pedophile Scout for Boys. Yeah, that's the name of the organization. Oh man, oh god. Be prepared as a model. That means be prepared to get most Yeah, you be prepared for what the adults and this organization are going to do to you. So the Boy Scouts didn't just refuse to require criminal background checks for their volunteers. They board huge amounts of money into lobbying local governments because states start to be like, well, we as a state want to require FBI background checks for youth volunteers for organizations anywhere in the state, and the b s A lobbies local elected leaders to stop these laws. It's it's I don't I don't understand like at that, but at that point you're just you're delened directly enabling it. This is at all like is this like an Epstein thing? Like yes, Like what is going on purpose? At this point? It sounds on purpose. I can't even logical reason. Yeah, I think someone just because like this is the way it's always been. I think some of it might some of it is probably that there are pedophiles in the organization who are want this, and some of it might be well, shit, if we do this, people will find out how many adults have been molesting kids in the Boy Scouts. Yeah, and that that that's not gonna be good for us, burn the p file or whatever. What the fuck I mean? God damn. So the b s A did not ultimately start requiring criminal background checks for volunteers, and you want to guess what year two thousand three, two eight. By this point, hundreds and possibly thousands of men with criminal histories of child molestation were allowed into the Boy Scouts. Most of these men went on to abuse more children from the very earliest days after the decision not to require background checks. This was recognized as a problem from yet another Los Angeles Times article. In n Scout committee chairman in St. Paul, Minnesota decried the organization's half hearted screening in a letter to headquarters, b s A is only creating an illusion of performing what they claim. K Russell Sias wrote to Scout chief executive Been Love. It becomes quite clear that b s A is more concerned with passing the buck than an accepting responsibility for those who are its adult leaders. That same year, a Las Vegas Scout master with a criminal history of exposing himself to boys with arrested for sexually abusing a twelve year old scout. One parent said casinos did a better job of screening workers. Honestly, yeah, the parent wrote to Scouting officials. The black eye which Scouting has suffered in this could easily have been avoided if the council had taken the simple expedient of doing a background investigation. I'm mean, yep, yeah, yeah, I mean, I don't. I just don't. I don't understand it at this point. It wasn't the money. They don't want to pay the money at that time. Some that has to be some of it because of what we're about to talk about, because it gets worse. We have not hit bottom yet, Matt, Are you excited? I'm just like, if my blood pressure goes any higher, mo fucking die. Yes we have we have, oh boy. So, while the boy Scouts are giving child molester's probation, covering up abused, refusing background checks, YadA, YadA, YadA, children keep coming forward to tell their stories, and by the nineties again this book comes out. It's getting more known, right that this is a problem the organization has, and as a result, once it becomes clear to people used to pay attention that like this might be a systemic issue. Some parents of kids who get molested try to soothe the organization, claiming a pattern of abuse enabled by the very structure of the B s A itself. Confronted with these threats in the form of children entrusted to the B s A and abused by men that organization had refused to properly vet, the boy Scouts viciously attacked the victims and their families. In one case, two boys in Michigan alleged that they had been molested quote, hundreds of times by a troop leader. The B s A denied any responsibility, and instead, in court blamed their widowed mother. They claimed she had failed quote to provide adequate supervision over the volunteer they had approved. Wow, yeah, your fault, your kids got molested if you weren't watching hard enough over the guy. That his whole job, according to the ethos of our organization, is to help, like single moms raised their kids. You didn't. It's your fault that. Yeah, you should have done a background check. Yeah, you should have done a background check. Why did you do that? Yeah, don't you scream? Come on, And it gets worse from the l A Times quote. In two thousand two, Gerald Schwartz, a forty two year old former Scout master in New York, admitted to abusing a boy in his troop in the nineteen nineties after being secretly recorded saying he did something very, very wrong and apologizing to the boy. Schwartz pleaded guilty to four counts of sodomy and was sent to prison. Despite the conviction and the victim's testimony that Schwartz raped me and forced me to perform oral sex on him, the Scouts, in emotion to dismiss the subsequent lawsuit, contended that the sex was consensual. What the fuck? Yep, wow, yeah, we gotta burn it down. This is yeah, we gotta burn this ship down. This is not this is not salvageable. This is not salvageable. Holy fuck. Yeah. Yeah, that's bad. That's the worst these guys are. You know, it's so much worse than I thought it was. Yeah, really is. I'm not I'm not pro scout no more. No, no, this has definitely turned me around in the night. Yeah. Sorry. In the nineteen eighties in Oregon, one man alleged that Scouting troop leader Timurd Dikes was allowed to continue his leadership position after he admitted to molesting seventeen boys, and this kid had been molested him after that. Yeah, it took decades for one of the boys victimized by Dikes to seek legal recourse, But when he did, at a trial in two thousand ten, regional bs A official, Eugene Grant blamed his parents for letting their children go to Dike's apartment to work on merit badges and attend to Scouting sleepover. Which maybe there's some questionable parenting calls being made here, but you led him into your organization and let him stay after he molested seventeen boys. And also, like you know, it's like you're you were saying, it's like you trust, you trust him he scout right, Yeah, but the boy Scouts representatives at in court his parents should have known better. I think it's criminal. You let him stay in the Scouts after he admitted to molesting seventeen boys, and the parents are the criminals. The funk is wrong with you, these guys we gotta Yeah, I don't understand. I'm not going to say say that in a court of law and not immediately into fire. Yeah, I mean, just like murder is wrong, right, yeah, kind of in some kind. I'm not trying to say publicly right now anything that's gonna get me in trouble, but I feel like sometimes murder is good. Yeah, that's a reasonable thing to feel. Hearing this story, like they said these words out loud, and the fact that no one was just like, yeah, I got to kill this guy out like the value of brickings. That's a brick in That's like somebody should just be like, Okay, I gotta hit this guy with a brick. The brick. Yeah, you don't get to say that and not get hit in the face with the brick. That's that's brick in words. Thankfully, the Oregon jury rejected his line of argument and found the Scouts liable for almost twenty million dollars in damages. This is the case. This is why we all like no in mass about the problem. Now. This case breaks open the floodgates of abuse claims against the boy Scouts um And it's during this case part of the discovery and this like the p files are revealed and and put into the public record because they're trying to show like there's a pattern of abuse. Right, These guys keep getting in and abused in the boy Scouts let them in again. Um, this is what led to all of the Los Angeles Times articles we've quoted so far, because once these things are made public, because if it's introduced into like a legal case in that way, it's like anyone can see that. So they start combing through this stuff, and it other they start doing, like other stuff gets released. Um, it's it's the this is the blood in the water, you know. Um. Journalists start finding out other details of sorted voy Scout sexual abuse history, and more victims start coming forward. An avalanche begins. One issue that confronted many victims is the fact that some states had very strict laws regarding the statute of limitation for sex crimes. So like a lot of these guys they were abused in like the fifties, you know, and like now as an adult who's like, these stories are heartbreaking. Some of these men are like I was never I was abused in like the fifties the sixties. I was never able to like have a relationship that I was I've never been able to feel intimate with anybody like this is there's cases of people who commit suicide one volt whether were molested, and he's like, yeah, my brother became addicted to drugs and died of an overdose and like that he never recovered from this. You know. It's I mean, anyone who knows a victim of childhood sexual abuse knows how deep, like uniquely evil an act it is to inflict upon somebody. Yeah, and how yeah the stories are just so when these guys start realizing I'm not alone, people will believe me now, and also maybe if I speak up, this will help to protect other kids, you know. Um, So they start to come forward, but on a lot of states they can't bring charges against the people who victimize them or the Boy Scouts because of the statute of limitations. So many states, when they realize how many these kids are out there, to their credit, a bunch of state lawmakers put forward bills to expand the statute of limitations and allow charges to be pressed further away from the time of the abuse. To be like, well, ship, maybe we didn't really, we didn't make these laws considering everything that was happening, and like it's we need to we need to allow these people a chance to get justice. The Boy Scouts spend a fortune and lawyers and lobbying fighting these bills wherever they crop up, once again, devoting for huge financial resources which they said we're not worth spending on background checks to try and make it harder for boys victimized by BSA officials to seek justice. From the Washington Post quote, the group retained lobbyists in Georgia and New York, where lawmakers say such action helped to all proposals that included look back windows allowing adults to take legal action over decades old claims. It is hired lobbyists in Michigan, where similar proposals are being debated. The bills would give adults who were abused as children a second chance to file suit if they missed their first opportunity under state law. Opponents of the state proposals, including the Boy Scouts and Catholic arch Diocese, argued that open ended look back periods violate due process and would put groups in the tough position of defending themselves in cases from the distant past. I love like the people the Scouts in the Catholic Church coming together, coming together, just like a fucking rape. E Voltron trying to be like, well, this is just wrong and this is I want to belabor a bit on the argument they're making, which is that this is unfair because it puts us in the position of defending our organization from actions that other We weren't in charge of the Boy Scouts on this app this was fifty years ago, completely different group of men who were in charge. Like, how can we be held responsible today for the actions of two generations leaders from two generations ago. Yeah, I don't think this is a good argument. For one thing, as we have discussed, the historical records shows that the b s a's attitude towards sex abusers and the ways in which you enable them and defend them has not wavered since the days of Robert Baden Powell. From Baden Powell's time to the fucking two thousands, the Boy Scouts are doing basically the same ship. For another, the same officials who led the b s A in the late OTTs had been the ones in the seventies and eighties furthering the height and ignored policies that enabled sexual abuse of children. In April of two thousand nineteen, an expert who had been working with the b s A estimated that as many as seven thousand, eight hundred and nineteen adult volunteers and staff members had sexually abused boys over the course of the b s AS history. He suggested they were responsible for harming as many as twelve thousand, two hundred and fifty four victims. That's the b s AS expert right now. If that were it, if that were the extent of the problem, this would be a huge problem. But it turns out that was a drastic underestimation. A little over a year later, in November, after a series of lawsuits and settlements, more than a hundred thousand alleged victims had come forward to claim they had been sexually assaulted as children in the Boy Scouts. So that's a hundred thousand who have said I was a victim in the Scots. Yeah, and this is in the last year. Fuck yes. The Boy Scouts have filed for bankruptcy, claiming to be devastated by the allegations. Um, there's a number of fucked up things in the fall out of this. One of the most the worst things. So, the Boy Scouts were stewards of a huge amount of wild lands right for campgrounds and stuff, and they were that they would take care of They've sold a bunch of that to developers, a lot of that ship these like this, like Pristine Wild they have been turned into like housing developments and ship because the Boy Scouts went broke trying to defending themselves from all the rape that their members did. It's, um, it's just like a comprehensively bleak story. Oh my god. They can't even redeem themselves and make them like public lands. There is just to sell it, to pay for lawyers to attack these kids. If I can't touch kids on this land, then I'm gonna fucking build condos on it. Yeah. Well, the story of the Boy Scouts, I hate it. Yeah, oh my good god, dude. I mean it's like usually when I you know the name of the show behind the Bastards, It's like usually it's like the plural is because you have many episodes covering specific bastards. This is one. It was just like one bastard at the beginning, and then just an endless slew of bastards and and it's too many bad. I think I'm on bastard overload. And yeah, I wanna I want to do some righteous murder. Let's do a righteous kill together, dude. Yeah, yeah, let's go, Um, Sophie, can you uh can we can we like a get get come right off some some money for murder tools? Probably not? Well what about a boat so that we can go to international waters? Yeah? In international waters it's legal, so stop trying, come on, right, it'll be like sea org but like but yeah, but good a good sea org done it right? Good? There could not yet, So you have a very closed mind towards sea orgs. And I don't think that's fair to all the good org Yeah yeah, like uh like the I don't know the surfers. Yeah, they've probably a chill. Yeah, come on, m No, I don't think it's going to happen. Um, I mean, you know we can. We can do it on land, I guess. But the point is that I'm currently furious and uh, I'm this is so eating. So I've had a good time. Yeah, so you had a good time on my show. Well I'm sure everyone's dissociating now, so, um, have a good time staring into the distance and uh yeah and just kind of like thinking, yeah, yeah, I have a good time losing touch with your corporeal body as the rage within you becomes transcendent. Yeah, yeah, that's a. That's a. It's a type of drug rages. It is a type of drugge hall. Yeah, I'm just gonna get some ragel hall on right now. I need a xan X. Yeah, rage out with your page out. I don't know. I don't know. Boy, Matt, you got any plugables to plug? Um? Yeah, I do sopromos podcast. Pot yourself a gun check it out. We're about to start season six by the time this comes out, well, season six, episode one will be out. It's a it's a great show, film drunk broadcast, that's us, but the same guys talking about movies. I wanted I wanted to dedicate this to my my childhood friend Johnny Aaron. Uh you know you listen to this show, Johnny are and you're a you're a good you're a good man. Sorry it was the molestation one. Yeah, this is a rough episode to get a shout out here, but you know, fucking hey, you can't all be winners, you know, man. Yeah, thanks thanks for having me back. Yep, thanks for coming back. And also sorry, oh