Zone Media. Hey everybody, Robert here, it's the Christmas two parter and every year we try to use our holiday episodes to do something good. This year, we're asking you to support the mutual aid project that James Stout over at It Could Happen Here, has been a part of for nearly six months in a remote part of the US Mexico border near Yacoomba, California. While you're hopefully warm and dry, the border patrol is detaining thousands of migrants, including children and the elderly, in the desert without food, water, or shelter when overnight temperatures drop below freezing. Volunteers provide hot meals, blankets and toys for children. They build shelters even though the Border patrol destroys them, and keep rebuilding them so that people have a place to sleep out in the freezing wind. Everyone there, including James, has spent a lot of their own money supporting this effort, and you can hear more about the efforts of volunteers over on It Could Happen Here. But your support would mean the world to James and the other people trying to help migrants over at the border, and of course those migrants themselves. You can donate to this effort at go fundme. If you just type Yakumba j A c U m b A Migrant Camps, go fund me, Yakumba Migrant Camps, go fund me, you'll get it. Or you can use the link TinyURL dot com slash border a GFM that'll take you right to the fundraiser. So thank you. Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, Welcome Radio Voice Super Slam Edition.

Zone Media. Hey everybody, Robert here, it's the Christmas two parter and every year we try to use our holiday episodes to do something good. This year, we're asking you to support the mutual aid project that James Stout over at It Could Happen Here, has been a part of for nearly six months in a remote part of the US Mexico border near Yacoomba, California. While you're hopefully warm and dry, the border patrol is detaining thousands of migrants, including children and the elderly, in the desert without food, water, or shelter when overnight temperatures drop below freezing. Volunteers provide hot meals, blankets and toys for children. They build shelters even though the Border patrol destroys them, and keep rebuilding them so that people have a place to sleep out in the freezing wind. Everyone there, including James, has spent a lot of their own money supporting this effort, and you can hear more about the efforts of volunteers over on It Could Happen Here. But your support would mean the world to James and the other people trying to help migrants over at the border, and of course those migrants themselves. You can donate to this effort at go fundme. If you just type Yakumba j A c U m b A Migrant Camps, go fund me, Yakumba Migrant Camps, go fund me, you'll get it. Or you can use the link TinyURL dot com slash border a GFM that'll take you right to the fundraiser. So thank you. Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, Welcome Radio Voice Super Slam Edition.

Yeah, why are you doing this?

Yeah, why are you doing this?

Welcome back? What is the Holidays in the Morning podcast? Yeah?

Welcome back? What is the Holidays in the Morning podcast? Yeah?

With Robert Evans.

With Robert Evans.

Morning Zoo with Robert Evans and Sophie Lichterman and Margaret Killjoy. We're the Opie and Anthony of not having one of our people clearly be a sex pest. Wow, what an introduction.

Morning Zoo with Robert Evans and Sophie Lichterman and Margaret Killjoy. We're the Opie and Anthony of not having one of our people clearly be a sex pest. Wow, what an introduction.

I think you say you might have saved the best one for the end of the year. Great job, Robert.

I think you say you might have saved the best one for the end of the year. Great job, Robert.

I went into it. I actually like op and I remember them from when I was like I can't write there were they were big, and I had been aware of a few of their sketches. I was never a regular listener, so I just you know, I was aware there were things. Was like, I wonder what happened to them. It feels like they should be a big thing in podcasts given where they were. I read up and I was like, oh, that's what happened to them. Oh my As an end of the video treat job Robert, Yes, it wasn't. I wasn't surprised. It wasn't like one of those things that you hear and you're like, oh my god, how could that have been? Going like, yeah, that completely scance.

I went into it. I actually like op and I remember them from when I was like I can't write there were they were big, and I had been aware of a few of their sketches. I was never a regular listener, so I just you know, I was aware there were things. Was like, I wonder what happened to them. It feels like they should be a big thing in podcasts given where they were. I read up and I was like, oh, that's what happened to them. Oh my As an end of the video treat job Robert, Yes, it wasn't. I wasn't surprised. It wasn't like one of those things that you hear and you're like, oh my god, how could that have been? Going like, yeah, that completely scance.

Yeah, when are we surprised by when people who have too much power abuse that power?

Yeah, when are we surprised by when people who have too much power abuse that power?

Yeah, well, particularly men in media, men in comedy, right, yeah, where.

Yeah, well, particularly men in media, men in comedy, right, yeah, where.

It's like, yeah, very close, men in bands, it's it's roughly the same thing.

It's like, yeah, very close, men in bands, it's it's roughly the same thing.

Yeah, we're yeah, we're when when one of them is not a sex pest. Yeah, I would love to see the statistic by occupation. Yes, anyway, we're back. We're continuing our series on Aaron Schwartz, one of the people who invented the Internet as we know it and where we are right now. Aaron's in his early twenties, you know, less than a decade into his career. He's been part of the creation of RSS, he's been part of the creation of the Open Library. He's one of the founders of Reddit, and he's helped to create the Creative Commons. Right, if that is what you can say about your life at the end of forty years of full time work, you have had a full career, right. Yeah, Aaron is like eight or nine less than a decade in right, Like just an astonishing CV you know if you want to think of it that way.

Yeah, we're yeah, we're when when one of them is not a sex pest. Yeah, I would love to see the statistic by occupation. Yes, anyway, we're back. We're continuing our series on Aaron Schwartz, one of the people who invented the Internet as we know it and where we are right now. Aaron's in his early twenties, you know, less than a decade into his career. He's been part of the creation of RSS, he's been part of the creation of the Open Library. He's one of the founders of Reddit, and he's helped to create the Creative Commons. Right, if that is what you can say about your life at the end of forty years of full time work, you have had a full career, right. Yeah, Aaron is like eight or nine less than a decade in right, Like just an astonishing CV you know if you want to think of it that way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The next thing he's going to get on after he bounces, you know, from he goes to this thing he writes, helps write the Gorilla Open Access Manifesto. Aaron returns to Cambridge, mass and he gets involved with a new project, public dot Resource dot org, which want to increase access to public legal documents. Documents are collectively owned by all of us here in the old loss of status. You need us, right, we own them all. None of them are property of a court, of a lawyer or whatever. Right, if it's introduced to court, it's everybody's. That is the way this shit works, with very few exceptions. But that doesn't mean you can just get access to it for free. Right Theoretically, if you like go to a legal library or something, you can get it. But like if you want to get it from the government. The government provides access to all this stuff that we all own via a system called PACER, And as a journalist having used PACER, I can tell you it sucks. Boiling dog shit. It is a fucking horrible program. It's really badly coded. It's very expensive to use if you're trying to get any meaningful amount of information. And this is a problem because this is access to stuff people need for their own legal cases. Lawyers need to defend their clients, Journalists need to report on things that involve the law. This is all critical part of engaging with the legal system. And it's paywalled effectively right and in fact, because of how expensive it is, the government was profiting at this point by about one hundred and fifty million a year, you know, off of the fees they cause. It's not insignificant. And you know, in addition to that, it's just a fucking nightmare to use. So the plan that this organization, Aaron doesn't found it, but he's like one of the first people on it. The plan that the Public Dot Resource dood org has is we want to get journalists, lawyers, researchers, people who are using PACER and getting access to documents to send them to us, which is perfectly legal. Right, You get a document from PACER, belongs to all of us, send it to us, and we will digitize it and put it online. Right, and over time, we can collect as much of this stuff as possible in a place that's free to use and well coded and searchable so that people can get better like, right, very good idea and again absolutely one hundred percent, no no legal problems with this plan, right.

The next thing he's going to get on after he bounces, you know, from he goes to this thing he writes, helps write the Gorilla Open Access Manifesto. Aaron returns to Cambridge, mass and he gets involved with a new project, public dot Resource dot org, which want to increase access to public legal documents. Documents are collectively owned by all of us here in the old loss of status. You need us, right, we own them all. None of them are property of a court, of a lawyer or whatever. Right, if it's introduced to court, it's everybody's. That is the way this shit works, with very few exceptions. But that doesn't mean you can just get access to it for free. Right Theoretically, if you like go to a legal library or something, you can get it. But like if you want to get it from the government. The government provides access to all this stuff that we all own via a system called PACER, And as a journalist having used PACER, I can tell you it sucks. Boiling dog shit. It is a fucking horrible program. It's really badly coded. It's very expensive to use if you're trying to get any meaningful amount of information. And this is a problem because this is access to stuff people need for their own legal cases. Lawyers need to defend their clients, Journalists need to report on things that involve the law. This is all critical part of engaging with the legal system. And it's paywalled effectively right and in fact, because of how expensive it is, the government was profiting at this point by about one hundred and fifty million a year, you know, off of the fees they cause. It's not insignificant. And you know, in addition to that, it's just a fucking nightmare to use. So the plan that this organization, Aaron doesn't found it, but he's like one of the first people on it. The plan that the Public Dot Resource dood org has is we want to get journalists, lawyers, researchers, people who are using PACER and getting access to documents to send them to us, which is perfectly legal. Right, You get a document from PACER, belongs to all of us, send it to us, and we will digitize it and put it online. Right, and over time, we can collect as much of this stuff as possible in a place that's free to use and well coded and searchable so that people can get better like, right, very good idea and again absolutely one hundred percent, no no legal problems with this plan, right.

Well, I mean it might piss people off.

Well, I mean it might piss people off.

Yeah, it might piss people off, right, because the government's got a big on this, But that doesn't mean you're doing doing anything wrong by having people do this right. Around this time, though, the government has launched a project to allow the idea was like, we want to increase access to PACER files for free, and so a handful of libraries basically had access to PACER without using money. So you could go to those libraries, access documents, print them out if you want it, right, or save them on a hard drive or whatever. Right, Aaron writes some code for this organization to allow him to automate this process. So in very short order he has downloaded twenty percent of the database of all American legal filings, right, a lot of stuff. Again, not at all illegal. This is everybody's property. There's nothing that makes this at all. But the FBI gets on his ass, right because Pacer notices one guy is doing an awful lot of downloading what's going on? And the Fed starts serve. They send a federal agent to his house to stalk him to see if it's like his family's house. And he's eventually confronted by the FBI about the downloads, right, and they let him know like, yeah, we have been following you. There's a file on you. And again, Aaron has not done anything wrong, He has not done anything that there is any way this could be illegal, right, yea, what are you thinking about? How possibly could you be committing a crime by wanting to have more access to the law? Right? What is what is the potential? But the Feds be the Feds and they come after him, and you're like.

Yeah, it might piss people off, right, because the government's got a big on this, But that doesn't mean you're doing doing anything wrong by having people do this right. Around this time, though, the government has launched a project to allow the idea was like, we want to increase access to PACER files for free, and so a handful of libraries basically had access to PACER without using money. So you could go to those libraries, access documents, print them out if you want it, right, or save them on a hard drive or whatever. Right, Aaron writes some code for this organization to allow him to automate this process. So in very short order he has downloaded twenty percent of the database of all American legal filings, right, a lot of stuff. Again, not at all illegal. This is everybody's property. There's nothing that makes this at all. But the FBI gets on his ass, right because Pacer notices one guy is doing an awful lot of downloading what's going on? And the Fed starts serve. They send a federal agent to his house to stalk him to see if it's like his family's house. And he's eventually confronted by the FBI about the downloads, right, and they let him know like, yeah, we have been following you. There's a file on you. And again, Aaron has not done anything wrong, He has not done anything that there is any way this could be illegal, right, yea, what are you thinking about? How possibly could you be committing a crime by wanting to have more access to the law? Right? What is what is the potential? But the Feds be the Feds and they come after him, and you're like.

The money, you know, it doesn't matter about law.

The money, you know, it doesn't matter about law.

Yeah, And I think they're also just like they don't know what's going on, and that's just you know, if you're the FBI, you handle every problem by sending a federal agent out after somebody, Right, Aaron doesn't get any trouble for this because he has again, he's done nothing wrong, but this makes him very paranoid, right, and it makes him very angry because this is his first interaction with how fucking scary the feds are right that, like, they were surveilling my home, they have a file on me because I wanted to increase access that people have to the law. I wanted to give people more access to the law. And the law came out like, yeah, this fucks him up somewhat, right, not hard to understand. Why now we.

Yeah, And I think they're also just like they don't know what's going on, and that's just you know, if you're the FBI, you handle every problem by sending a federal agent out after somebody, Right, Aaron doesn't get any trouble for this because he has again, he's done nothing wrong, but this makes him very paranoid, right, and it makes him very angry because this is his first interaction with how fucking scary the feds are right that, like, they were surveilling my home, they have a file on me because I wanted to increase access that people have to the law. I wanted to give people more access to the law. And the law came out like, yeah, this fucks him up somewhat, right, not hard to understand. Why now we.

Give you took a bunch of pictures of national parks and we're like, here's a bunch of free pictures of national parks. And then the federal government was like, how dare you take? Why are you copies of the thing that we all own?

Give you took a bunch of pictures of national parks and we're like, here's a bunch of free pictures of national parks. And then the federal government was like, how dare you take? Why are you copies of the thing that we all own?

Yeah? Yeah, So Aaron's on the government's radar now. And unfortunately, the fact that he has not done anything wrong is not a defense to the Feds continuing to look at you. Right, And once you're on their radar, you tend to stay there. And I'm going to quote from Rolling Stone again. A year later, in September twenty ten, Schwartz connected a refurbished Acer laptop to MIT's terminal in Building sixteen, a modernist glass and concrete structure on the campus. Registered as a guest on the system he had used most of his life, he signed on to Jstore, an online library of academic journals that universities pay yearly subscription fees of up to tens of thousands to access. Using his script he had built. Not unlike the pacer Crawler, Schwartz began to download an extraordinary volume of articles. Over the course of the next three months, he found ways to circumvent attempts to block his connection, eventually hardwiring his laptop directly to the school servers from a restricted utility closet. By January of twenty eleven, he had downloaded nearly five million documents from Jaystore's database. Hell yeah, now this is cool, and a reasonable person might say, what's the big deal, right, Aaron is allowed to access this stuff. He is a Harvard fellow at this point, and MIT gives them access to their stuff, So he is allowed to go to MIT, use their Jaystore access, download as many files as he wants. That is not a crime. It is a violation of policy that I think the school probably could have chosen to, like maybe press charge if they'd wanted to for going. But even then, it's kind of doesn't break in. It isn't like bust a lock. He just opens a closet he's not supposed to be in and leaves a laptop there hardwired in. It's we could a sketchy. I'm not surprised that the school took an interest in this, Yeah, but it's not. This is not kind of thing that they because they didn't. They didn't think we need to make sure that someone has free access. Doesn't download five million files right, right, and it is depending on what he had intended to do with those files, it could be illegal. A lot of those files are public resources, a copyright free. There's stuff that is old enough that there's no copyright, and a lot of those files are things he could have given out to whoever wanted. Not all of them, though a lot of them are not. If he had chosen to digitize all of that and put it up for free, that would have been illegal. Not saying it's wrong, I don't believe it is wrong, but that would have been a crime.

Yeah? Yeah, So Aaron's on the government's radar now. And unfortunately, the fact that he has not done anything wrong is not a defense to the Feds continuing to look at you. Right, And once you're on their radar, you tend to stay there. And I'm going to quote from Rolling Stone again. A year later, in September twenty ten, Schwartz connected a refurbished Acer laptop to MIT's terminal in Building sixteen, a modernist glass and concrete structure on the campus. Registered as a guest on the system he had used most of his life, he signed on to Jstore, an online library of academic journals that universities pay yearly subscription fees of up to tens of thousands to access. Using his script he had built. Not unlike the pacer Crawler, Schwartz began to download an extraordinary volume of articles. Over the course of the next three months, he found ways to circumvent attempts to block his connection, eventually hardwiring his laptop directly to the school servers from a restricted utility closet. By January of twenty eleven, he had downloaded nearly five million documents from Jaystore's database. Hell yeah, now this is cool, and a reasonable person might say, what's the big deal, right, Aaron is allowed to access this stuff. He is a Harvard fellow at this point, and MIT gives them access to their stuff, So he is allowed to go to MIT, use their Jaystore access, download as many files as he wants. That is not a crime. It is a violation of policy that I think the school probably could have chosen to, like maybe press charge if they'd wanted to for going. But even then, it's kind of doesn't break in. It isn't like bust a lock. He just opens a closet he's not supposed to be in and leaves a laptop there hardwired in. It's we could a sketchy. I'm not surprised that the school took an interest in this, Yeah, but it's not. This is not kind of thing that they because they didn't. They didn't think we need to make sure that someone has free access. Doesn't download five million files right, right, and it is depending on what he had intended to do with those files, it could be illegal. A lot of those files are public resources, a copyright free. There's stuff that is old enough that there's no copyright, and a lot of those files are things he could have given out to whoever wanted. Not all of them, though a lot of them are not. If he had chosen to digitize all of that and put it up for free, that would have been illegal. Not saying it's wrong, I don't believe it is wrong, but that would have been a crime.

Right.

Right.

But he doesn't do that. He doesn't ever get to that point, and we don't know that that's what he intended to do. This is a very important point. What happens is that MIT notices what's going on that this laptop has been put here, someone's in here, somebody's downloading all these files. They put a hidden camera in the closet. The camera captures Wore going in and changing out the hard drive once it fills up to put a new one in, and they contact law enforcement and he gets busted. Right there's a grand jury thing that's formed, and they, you know, the Feds present evidence as to kind of like what is is you know, he's been doing and he's going to end up getting indicted. And again we don't know why Aaron one of those files. For one thing. You know, if the Feds had really cared about if the concern was actual criminality, they would have waited to see if he was going to break the law. They did not. They come after him before that can ever happen. They are just trying to catch this kid because he's on their radar, right Yeah, and they don't give a shit if he's doing anything. And again, I don't morally think it would have been wrong if he stole those, but that is illegal, right, that is a crime. Right.

But he doesn't do that. He doesn't ever get to that point, and we don't know that that's what he intended to do. This is a very important point. What happens is that MIT notices what's going on that this laptop has been put here, someone's in here, somebody's downloading all these files. They put a hidden camera in the closet. The camera captures Wore going in and changing out the hard drive once it fills up to put a new one in, and they contact law enforcement and he gets busted. Right there's a grand jury thing that's formed, and they, you know, the Feds present evidence as to kind of like what is is you know, he's been doing and he's going to end up getting indicted. And again we don't know why Aaron one of those files. For one thing. You know, if the Feds had really cared about if the concern was actual criminality, they would have waited to see if he was going to break the law. They did not. They come after him before that can ever happen. They are just trying to catch this kid because he's on their radar, right Yeah, and they don't give a shit if he's doing anything. And again, I don't morally think it would have been wrong if he stole those, but that is illegal, right, that is a crime. Right.

But if they if they waited until he broke the law, then it would be the cat would be out of the bag and the files at all, yeahploaded. And so they wanted to stop him before he broke the law, which should be it would be morally it's morally ang the Feds to stop someone before they break the law out of a set And.

But if they if they waited until he broke the law, then it would be the cat would be out of the bag and the files at all, yeahploaded. And so they wanted to stop him before he broke the law, which should be it would be morally it's morally ang the Feds to stop someone before they break the law out of a set And.

Again, we don't know that he and I'll explain why we don't know that he would have done that. I think they didn't want to wait in case he wasn't going to break the law, right I do. That's kind of where I am. You know, I don't know, we're.

Again, we don't know that he and I'll explain why we don't know that he would have done that. I think they didn't want to wait in case he wasn't going to break the law, right I do. That's kind of where I am. You know, I don't know, we're.

Talking totally, because they could have just had them been like I want a database of this in case the laws change around it, or yes, yeah.

Talking totally, because they could have just had them been like I want a database of this in case the laws change around it, or yes, yeah.

And we'll talk about there's a couple other things he could have been doing. What's important is that when he gets in trouble for this, he has not actually broken a law. Right, the Feds are going to argue he is. He has not actually yet done anything that is definitely criminal activity. And now there are some theories as to why he might have wanted these files. By this point, Aaron has again had another shift in his interests. He's less interested. Actually at this point, a lot of his rangers will say, he's not really that big into copyright stuff. At this point. He's moved on. He writes some stuff about this too, where he's like, that was you know, an earlier point to me, That's not my focus right now. He has gotten obsessed with having an impact in politics, using his knowledge of code and technology to further progressive politics. Right. That is what Aaron is into right now. One of the things he is doing is actually, it's a lot of it's kind of open source journalism. Right. He has just recently finished a massive project where he basically built a database of all of these publications of legal scholars, and he used the algorithms he was crafting to comb through them to find connections between legal scholars who have been hired as consultants by various corporations and are receiving money from those corporations, and then produce legal filings that become part of legal theory that benefits those corporations. This is the kind of thing you can only do when you have a massive data set and you're able to build connections between the data, right, And as a result of this, he is able to prove that legal theory is being crafted for pay by capitalists who are using legal scholars in a way that is very fucked up to push changes in the laws. Right, they are hiring as people. These people then independently published stuff that is helping these companies. Right, the kind of thing you have to have a huge data set to show, Right, that is something Aaron does. He proves this beyond a shadow of a fucking doubt. Not that that surprises anybody who listens to the show, but like, and that is a potential use of the files he was using that is in no way illegal.

And we'll talk about there's a couple other things he could have been doing. What's important is that when he gets in trouble for this, he has not actually broken a law. Right, the Feds are going to argue he is. He has not actually yet done anything that is definitely criminal activity. And now there are some theories as to why he might have wanted these files. By this point, Aaron has again had another shift in his interests. He's less interested. Actually at this point, a lot of his rangers will say, he's not really that big into copyright stuff. At this point. He's moved on. He writes some stuff about this too, where he's like, that was you know, an earlier point to me, That's not my focus right now. He has gotten obsessed with having an impact in politics, using his knowledge of code and technology to further progressive politics. Right. That is what Aaron is into right now. One of the things he is doing is actually, it's a lot of it's kind of open source journalism. Right. He has just recently finished a massive project where he basically built a database of all of these publications of legal scholars, and he used the algorithms he was crafting to comb through them to find connections between legal scholars who have been hired as consultants by various corporations and are receiving money from those corporations, and then produce legal filings that become part of legal theory that benefits those corporations. This is the kind of thing you can only do when you have a massive data set and you're able to build connections between the data, right, And as a result of this, he is able to prove that legal theory is being crafted for pay by capitalists who are using legal scholars in a way that is very fucked up to push changes in the laws. Right, they are hiring as people. These people then independently published stuff that is helping these companies. Right, the kind of thing you have to have a huge data set to show, Right, that is something Aaron does. He proves this beyond a shadow of a fucking doubt. Not that that surprises anybody who listens to the show, but like, and that is a potential use of the files he was using that is in no way illegal.

That makes so much sense. That's this is kind of mind blowing because I again, I only had the cliff Notes version of Aaron's life, and like, so I had the like and that you know, Dallo them to share him or whatever, and I liked him then, But this is like, yeah, yeah, it is a good point, and like, yeah.

That makes so much sense. That's this is kind of mind blowing because I again, I only had the cliff Notes version of Aaron's life, and like, so I had the like and that you know, Dallo them to share him or whatever, and I liked him then, But this is like, yeah, yeah, it is a good point, and like, yeah.

That would have been heroic and illegal, which again you and I I don't give a shit morally that it's illegal. I think that would have been a perfectly ethical thing to do. But there's a very good chance based on what he was doing, he had absolutely no intent to carry out. He was doing something else that's rad but that was in no way illegal.

That would have been heroic and illegal, which again you and I I don't give a shit morally that it's illegal. I think that would have been a perfectly ethical thing to do. But there's a very good chance based on what he was doing, he had absolutely no intent to carry out. He was doing something else that's rad but that was in no way illegal.

And he's also he's real smart, and he knows the Feds are on him, which does make it seem less likely that he was specifically planning on breaking the law, especially breaking a law that like because it took a long time, right, he was like going and replacing the hard drive and shit, right, and so he knew that the Feds were on him. So if he was like, oh, I got to do this and get them up and it doesn't matter if I go down because I did it, he would have done it a lot. He would have done that a lot faster maybe, I think Jack here.

And he's also he's real smart, and he knows the Feds are on him, which does make it seem less likely that he was specifically planning on breaking the law, especially breaking a law that like because it took a long time, right, he was like going and replacing the hard drive and shit, right, and so he knew that the Feds were on him. So if he was like, oh, I got to do this and get them up and it doesn't matter if I go down because I did it, he would have done it a lot. He would have done that a lot faster maybe, I think Jack here.

One of the things Quinn Norton will say also is that like, if he had been planning to do this big illegal thing, I knew a bunch of hackers, there were other ways to crack that data and get it that would not have involved him personally doing it. Yeah, this was a thing he knew the people get to get involved with, right, there were there would have been a way if that had been his plan. I do think based on what I have read based on what he was doing at this point, I think it's likelier he had some sort of plan to analyze the data and use it for a project, as opposed to he wanted to post it up. Right again, I would have had no issue if he had of I just that's what seems most likely to me based on what he was doing. Right.

One of the things Quinn Norton will say also is that like, if he had been planning to do this big illegal thing, I knew a bunch of hackers, there were other ways to crack that data and get it that would not have involved him personally doing it. Yeah, this was a thing he knew the people get to get involved with, right, there were there would have been a way if that had been his plan. I do think based on what I have read based on what he was doing at this point, I think it's likelier he had some sort of plan to analyze the data and use it for a project, as opposed to he wanted to post it up. Right again, I would have had no issue if he had of I just that's what seems most likely to me based on what he was doing. Right.

Oh, that's fascinating.

Oh, that's fascinating.

And as again as the New Yorker notes, this was part of a pattern in his career, and I'm gonna quote from that again. Five or six years ago, at an Education in Democracy meetup, he asked if anyone was going to be in Washington, d C. And could pick up some files. He was compiling a report about the relation between candidate's wealth and their electoral success. And while successful candidate's financial disclosure records were available on the internet, unsuccessful candidate's records, while public, were not online. If you wanted to see them, you were supposed to make paper copies in a library. But he won a digital file so he could analyze the data. Alec Resnik was planning to be in DC and volunteered for the task. Resnick spent a couple of days in a library attempting to steal the files in digital form, got caught light about it and was held there for most of the night by police. He wasn't put out by the experience. The police had been very nice about it, he said. Schwartz found the story endearing in hilarious, and he and Resnick became close friends and so to the extent. Again, if that's what Aaron was doing, he probably thought, if I get caught, that's the worst case scenario, right, you know, they are a little sketched out. They take me to custody, and then they find out I didn't have I wasn't planning to do anything illegal with it, right. I have a right to this data and I have a right to do what I was doing with it. It was just kind of sketchy the way I went about it because I didn't want to ask, right, and that is you know, you can say the safer thing to do would have been to have approach to my tea and say, hey, I want to use your jstore to download fucking ten million files to do this big large data analysis. He had the right to do that. It probably would have worked. But you know Aaron, right, Yeah.

And as again as the New Yorker notes, this was part of a pattern in his career, and I'm gonna quote from that again. Five or six years ago, at an Education in Democracy meetup, he asked if anyone was going to be in Washington, d C. And could pick up some files. He was compiling a report about the relation between candidate's wealth and their electoral success. And while successful candidate's financial disclosure records were available on the internet, unsuccessful candidate's records, while public, were not online. If you wanted to see them, you were supposed to make paper copies in a library. But he won a digital file so he could analyze the data. Alec Resnik was planning to be in DC and volunteered for the task. Resnick spent a couple of days in a library attempting to steal the files in digital form, got caught light about it and was held there for most of the night by police. He wasn't put out by the experience. The police had been very nice about it, he said. Schwartz found the story endearing in hilarious, and he and Resnick became close friends and so to the extent. Again, if that's what Aaron was doing, he probably thought, if I get caught, that's the worst case scenario, right, you know, they are a little sketched out. They take me to custody, and then they find out I didn't have I wasn't planning to do anything illegal with it, right. I have a right to this data and I have a right to do what I was doing with it. It was just kind of sketchy the way I went about it because I didn't want to ask, right, and that is you know, you can say the safer thing to do would have been to have approach to my tea and say, hey, I want to use your jstore to download fucking ten million files to do this big large data analysis. He had the right to do that. It probably would have worked. But you know Aaron, right, Yeah.

He's a break things person, and he's a he has a bit of that to him, right, Yeah, And he's also kind of he is enough of a child of privilege where he's not used to even probably with the Feds after him. Maybe I'm I don't know him, and I'm.

He's a break things person, and he's a he has a bit of that to him, right, Yeah, And he's also kind of he is enough of a child of privilege where he's not used to even probably with the Feds after him. Maybe I'm I don't know him, and I'm.

I think sure, neither neither do I. That seems plausible based on what we do know about him, right, Yeah, So to do whatever work he had planned next, there's a very good chance he was looking at this as like, I need these massive data sets for some reason, and I want to do an analysis on it, right, And that is again within his rights. I think it's unlikely he thought what he was doing was illegal, or that if it was, it was the kind of thing might get like yelled at about a little slap on the wrist.

I think sure, neither neither do I. That seems plausible based on what we do know about him, right, Yeah, So to do whatever work he had planned next, there's a very good chance he was looking at this as like, I need these massive data sets for some reason, and I want to do an analysis on it, right, And that is again within his rights. I think it's unlikely he thought what he was doing was illegal, or that if it was, it was the kind of thing might get like yelled at about a little slap on the wrist.

Right.

Right.

He also doesn't think MIT is going to have an issue with this, because MIT is where a lot of hacker culture comes from. Right. The school has a history of like people are allowed to kind of push some boundaries because that's what makes MIT famous. Right, It's totally people who push boundaries. Right, So it's not all going to work out that way, And to talk about how before we talk about how it worked out, let's talk about some products that you can purchase using currency.

He also doesn't think MIT is going to have an issue with this, because MIT is where a lot of hacker culture comes from. Right. The school has a history of like people are allowed to kind of push some boundaries because that's what makes MIT famous. Right, It's totally people who push boundaries. Right, So it's not all going to work out that way, And to talk about how before we talk about how it worked out, let's talk about some products that you can purchase using currency.

Which is like points.

Which is like points.

It is like points.

It is like points.

It is like point.

It is like point.

The higher your point value, the more important you are.

The higher your point value, the more important you are.

That's exactly how I feel gold.

That's exactly how I feel gold.

Points are worth more than paper.

Points are worth more than paper.

Yes, and we're back, so you know, uh uh yeah. Aaron probably did not think this was going to be an issue, certainly didn't think that if it was, the school was going to have a serious problem with what he'd done. But the response to what was at the most a minor indiscretion by Aaron in terms of not asking going into that closet was met with the legal equivalent of a nuclear and I'm going to quote from the New Yorker again here he was arrested after leaving the closet. The police took away his shoes and put him in a cell. Soon after his arrest, he returned the data he had taken, and Jaystore considered the matter settled. Mit, however, cooperated with the prosecution despite many efforts internal and external to dissuade it. The prosecutor, Stephen Heineyman, told Schwartz's lawyer, Elliott Peters, that if Schwartz pleaded guilty to all counts, he would spend six months in jail. If he lost at trial, it would be much worse. He said. The value of what was taken from Jaystore was two million dollars, and under the sentence and guidelines, that would equate to a sentence in the neighborhood of seven years. Peters says, and I said what he took from Jaystore wasn't worth anything. It was a bunch of like the nineteen forty two edition of Journal of Botany idea that Aaron should be sentenced the same way as someone who tries to beat someone out of two million dollars in a security fraud scam, someone who steals money from people, and you know that is a reasonable thing to be angry about and erin by the way gets he will claim. I have seen no reason to doubt this, that he is like physically abused by the police during his arrest during one of his arrests. That seems very likely. Know in the cops the situation Aaron now found himself in was deliberately bewildering and vague. You have to remember that, as Tim McVeigh said, the only language the federal government understands is force right, and when they charge you with a crime like this. Their tactic is shock in awe. The vast majority of federal prosecution succeed, So any intelligent defendant knows this. And when the federal prosecutors and whatnot say, hey, if you plead guilty, you get six months. If not, we're going to push for the maximum sentence, and it's this many fucking gonzo ass years. A lot of people. Most people take the plea, even innocent people, right, That's part of why their conviction is so a lot of innocent people plead guilty because it's like, well, they're offering me three months, six months, and that's better than the possibility of twenty years, even if.

Yes, and we're back, so you know, uh uh yeah. Aaron probably did not think this was going to be an issue, certainly didn't think that if it was, the school was going to have a serious problem with what he'd done. But the response to what was at the most a minor indiscretion by Aaron in terms of not asking going into that closet was met with the legal equivalent of a nuclear and I'm going to quote from the New Yorker again here he was arrested after leaving the closet. The police took away his shoes and put him in a cell. Soon after his arrest, he returned the data he had taken, and Jaystore considered the matter settled. Mit, however, cooperated with the prosecution despite many efforts internal and external to dissuade it. The prosecutor, Stephen Heineyman, told Schwartz's lawyer, Elliott Peters, that if Schwartz pleaded guilty to all counts, he would spend six months in jail. If he lost at trial, it would be much worse. He said. The value of what was taken from Jaystore was two million dollars, and under the sentence and guidelines, that would equate to a sentence in the neighborhood of seven years. Peters says, and I said what he took from Jaystore wasn't worth anything. It was a bunch of like the nineteen forty two edition of Journal of Botany idea that Aaron should be sentenced the same way as someone who tries to beat someone out of two million dollars in a security fraud scam, someone who steals money from people, and you know that is a reasonable thing to be angry about and erin by the way gets he will claim. I have seen no reason to doubt this, that he is like physically abused by the police during his arrest during one of his arrests. That seems very likely. Know in the cops the situation Aaron now found himself in was deliberately bewildering and vague. You have to remember that, as Tim McVeigh said, the only language the federal government understands is force right, and when they charge you with a crime like this. Their tactic is shock in awe. The vast majority of federal prosecution succeed, So any intelligent defendant knows this. And when the federal prosecutors and whatnot say, hey, if you plead guilty, you get six months. If not, we're going to push for the maximum sentence, and it's this many fucking gonzo ass years. A lot of people. Most people take the plea, even innocent people, right, That's part of why their conviction is so a lot of innocent people plead guilty because it's like, well, they're offering me three months, six months, and that's better than the possibility of twenty years, even if.

I yeah, no, I mean right, especially with something like this, Yeah, because you're in you're not putting anyone else at risk. If you plead out exactly like you're not like, you're not fucking over anyone else's cases.

I yeah, no, I mean right, especially with something like this, Yeah, because you're in you're not putting anyone else at risk. If you plead out exactly like you're not like, you're not fucking over anyone else's cases.

It ends with me. I can handle that much time, right. Aaron does not want to do this. For one thing, he's innocent. Hard to hard not to see why. He's also not a compromise guy. He hasn't had too much in his life, right, He doesn't feel like that his life has not providd not he lies thus far. One of the things his life thus far has not prepared him for is the kind of no win scenario that the federal government could trap you in. Right, Yeah, he's just he's not. That's just not a thing. Anything that he's dealt with has has given him sort of training in.

It ends with me. I can handle that much time, right. Aaron does not want to do this. For one thing, he's innocent. Hard to hard not to see why. He's also not a compromise guy. He hasn't had too much in his life, right, He doesn't feel like that his life has not providd not he lies thus far. One of the things his life thus far has not prepared him for is the kind of no win scenario that the federal government could trap you in. Right, Yeah, he's just he's not. That's just not a thing. Anything that he's dealt with has has given him sort of training in.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Another issue is that the best plea deal he could possibly get, and there's some debate as to whether or not he was even likely to get much of a plea deal. That kind of goes back and forth with the best possible plea deal he could have gotten would have still left him with a felony record. And right, at this point, Aaron is like, I want to work in politics. I want to change the political system as an activist. I want to maybe work at the White House. Right, I have that potential, I have those connections. I could be in the White House helping to shape tech policy in a way that helps people. Can't work at the White House with a fucking felony. Right. That may be changing soon, right, but at this point in time, that's how he sees. This is what he says to Quinn Norton. Right, I can't work at the White House with I can't. I can't take this plea deal because it'll lock me out of this thing that I want. And again it's part of like Aaron is not a compromiser. He can't compromise this current dream of his. Yeah, right, even though maybe that's the thing that guarantees he suffers the least, right, and that would end this horrible legal process, you know. Now, it's worth noting that today I see this on Twitter every time stuff about Aaron Schwartz comes up, Right, every time the anniversary of his death comes around, all that stuff that j Store hounded him in prosecution to his death. I don't think that's accurate. I'm not saying they don't deserve some blame. I don't even like Jstore, right, Like, there's a lot that's bad about that. But they are as soon as he gives the files back, they're like, we consider this done. We have no desire to prosecute him, right, Yeah, they do not push to prosecute him. Right, This is a decision. MIT is a part of this. MIT is part of his why he can he suffers from this, And largely it's federal prosecutors, right, even local prosecutors who have the option of charging him with some stuff, are uninterested in pursuing the matter, in part because I think they're like, well, this is mit, right, this is like what we do here tech, Like this kid hasn't done anything really that bad. If we wanted to, we could fuck him over, but like that doesn't help us as fucking you know Cambridge, Massachusetts, Right, Yeah, Like we don't benefit from hurting this guy who's a tech genius. That doesn't you know. I'm not saying they're altruists here, but it is the FEDS who decide this needs to move, right, They and that, as far as I can tell, that is the primary blame in terms of why this keeps being a fucking thing.

Another issue is that the best plea deal he could possibly get, and there's some debate as to whether or not he was even likely to get much of a plea deal. That kind of goes back and forth with the best possible plea deal he could have gotten would have still left him with a felony record. And right, at this point, Aaron is like, I want to work in politics. I want to change the political system as an activist. I want to maybe work at the White House. Right, I have that potential, I have those connections. I could be in the White House helping to shape tech policy in a way that helps people. Can't work at the White House with a fucking felony. Right. That may be changing soon, right, but at this point in time, that's how he sees. This is what he says to Quinn Norton. Right, I can't work at the White House with I can't. I can't take this plea deal because it'll lock me out of this thing that I want. And again it's part of like Aaron is not a compromiser. He can't compromise this current dream of his. Yeah, right, even though maybe that's the thing that guarantees he suffers the least, right, and that would end this horrible legal process, you know. Now, it's worth noting that today I see this on Twitter every time stuff about Aaron Schwartz comes up, Right, every time the anniversary of his death comes around, all that stuff that j Store hounded him in prosecution to his death. I don't think that's accurate. I'm not saying they don't deserve some blame. I don't even like Jstore, right, Like, there's a lot that's bad about that. But they are as soon as he gives the files back, they're like, we consider this done. We have no desire to prosecute him, right, Yeah, they do not push to prosecute him. Right, This is a decision. MIT is a part of this. MIT is part of his why he can he suffers from this, And largely it's federal prosecutors, right, even local prosecutors who have the option of charging him with some stuff, are uninterested in pursuing the matter, in part because I think they're like, well, this is mit, right, this is like what we do here tech, Like this kid hasn't done anything really that bad. If we wanted to, we could fuck him over, but like that doesn't help us as fucking you know Cambridge, Massachusetts, Right, Yeah, Like we don't benefit from hurting this guy who's a tech genius. That doesn't you know. I'm not saying they're altruists here, but it is the FEDS who decide this needs to move, right, They and that, as far as I can tell, that is the primary blame in terms of why this keeps being a fucking thing.

I know why that motivation? Is it because he's a progressive? Is it like we're going to talk about that, Oh okay, cool.

I know why that motivation? Is it because he's a progressive? Is it like we're going to talk about that, Oh okay, cool.

Maybe I'm not going to say none of I'm not going to say there aren't multiple things that factor into it, But I think the actual reason is so much sadder and more banal, As is often the case with terror evil right, we talk about you know, this is a case. We talk about Joseph Mangela, right, who his reputation in pop cultures. He was just this insane, mad scientist carrying out these nightmare experiments because of his sick mind.

Maybe I'm not going to say none of I'm not going to say there aren't multiple things that factor into it, But I think the actual reason is so much sadder and more banal, As is often the case with terror evil right, we talk about you know, this is a case. We talk about Joseph Mangela, right, who his reputation in pop cultures. He was just this insane, mad scientist carrying out these nightmare experiments because of his sick mind.

Right.

Right.

The reality is there were a lot of errant scientific beliefs. Scientists and doctors who are highly placed in the medical establishment at the time needed access to human test subjects that they couldn't get through willing test subjects. He had access to human beings, and he wanted to help his career. He wanted to set himself up for a scientific career, right, so he did that, right, That's why Mangela did what he did. He wasn't just like some sadist who was getting off on it. Right, There's really not the evidence for that he was he was doing. He didn't. He was just the kind of person who didn't care what he had to do to further his career and to build a career for That's what's behind this, okay, Right, as far as.

The reality is there were a lot of errant scientific beliefs. Scientists and doctors who are highly placed in the medical establishment at the time needed access to human test subjects that they couldn't get through willing test subjects. He had access to human beings, and he wanted to help his career. He wanted to set himself up for a scientific career, right, so he did that, right, That's why Mangela did what he did. He wasn't just like some sadist who was getting off on it. Right, There's really not the evidence for that he was he was doing. He didn't. He was just the kind of person who didn't care what he had to do to further his career and to build a career for That's what's behind this, okay, Right, as far as.

Someone wants to land a big fish case, that is yep, yep cool.

Someone wants to land a big fish case, that is yep, yep cool.

A lot of what's happening here. The federal government is at this point in the middle of its second great crackdown on so called hackers. Right. Some of this is because Anonymous, the digital activist collective online has spooked the olds at this point. Right, Yeah, there there's a lot of you know, it's a sexy thing that like, you can scare people on Fox News about, right, these these hacker gangs and shit, and a prosecutor can make a name for themselves by going after cybercrime.

A lot of what's happening here. The federal government is at this point in the middle of its second great crackdown on so called hackers. Right. Some of this is because Anonymous, the digital activist collective online has spooked the olds at this point. Right, Yeah, there there's a lot of you know, it's a sexy thing that like, you can scare people on Fox News about, right, these these hacker gangs and shit, and a prosecutor can make a name for themselves by going after cybercrime.

Right.

Right.

Stephen Hayman is the prosecutor here, and he takes the case to a grand jury who indicts Aaron on four felony accounts, including wire fraud and computer fraud. Nine more felony accounts are added later. Aaron could have faced thirty years in prison, you know, or more.

Stephen Hayman is the prosecutor here, and he takes the case to a grand jury who indicts Aaron on four felony accounts, including wire fraud and computer fraud. Nine more felony accounts are added later. Aaron could have faced thirty years in prison, you know, or more.

Yeah, Like I.

Yeah, Like I.

Think up to fifty is possible, but like very good chance, like at least like ten years and probably you know, the serious potential for more had he been convicted.

Think up to fifty is possible, but like very good chance, like at least like ten years and probably you know, the serious potential for more had he been convicted.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Much of the prosecution's arguments had to do with the fact that Aaron had shielded his face with a bike helmet when he walked past a security camera. Right. Carmen Ortiz, the US Attorney for Massachusetts and Obama appointee, compared to what Aaron had done to robbery, saying, stealing is stealing, whether he hu's a computer command or a crowbar. Now it's not. That's fucking nonsense. Because if you use a crowbar to break into a store and steal shit, right, have whatever opinions about the ethics of that, but you have damaged something. You've damaged the store front. Yeah, taken assets. People have to replace those assets. There is there is a harm to that business. Right, I'm not making a moral judgment about this, but there's a harm. If you download files from Jay's store and you have them on your hard drive and you have legal access to those files for free. You haven't heard j store. They're not out anything, right, and like they still have the He didn't delete them, he didn't hack in and delete them from.

Much of the prosecution's arguments had to do with the fact that Aaron had shielded his face with a bike helmet when he walked past a security camera. Right. Carmen Ortiz, the US Attorney for Massachusetts and Obama appointee, compared to what Aaron had done to robbery, saying, stealing is stealing, whether he hu's a computer command or a crowbar. Now it's not. That's fucking nonsense. Because if you use a crowbar to break into a store and steal shit, right, have whatever opinions about the ethics of that, but you have damaged something. You've damaged the store front. Yeah, taken assets. People have to replace those assets. There is there is a harm to that business. Right, I'm not making a moral judgment about this, but there's a harm. If you download files from Jay's store and you have them on your hard drive and you have legal access to those files for free. You haven't heard j store. They're not out anything, right, and like they still have the He didn't delete them, he didn't hack in and delete them from.

Their servers, you know, Like stealing is when you take something from someone and then they no longer have it. That is that, Yes, that is how I define stealing is when you take something and then the other person no longer has Illegal copying can be a crime, and it can and you can material. You can monetarily damage someone if you if you hiate someone else's shit and then you start selling it, you might make money instead of the other person or.

Their servers, you know, Like stealing is when you take something from someone and then they no longer have it. That is that, Yes, that is how I define stealing is when you take something and then the other person no longer has Illegal copying can be a crime, and it can and you can material. You can monetarily damage someone if you if you hiate someone else's shit and then you start selling it, you might make money instead of the other person or.

Y right there, or if you know, if they have people have access to it for free and you don't get paid. You can argue there's a harm there. Now I don't think that's how it actually works.

Y right there, or if you know, if they have people have access to it for free and you don't get paid. You can argue there's a harm there. Now I don't think that's how it actually works.

I think, but you're not taking the files from someone.

I think, but you're not taking the files from someone.

Exactly, he is not. It is not like using a crowbar, because you use a crowbar to break things, and he has not broken anything. Right, he did not hack his way into the system, right, he had access to it. You know, the fact that this logic is nonsense and the fact that Aaron, again there's no proof he had intended to contravene the law in any way. You know, that's what I would say, what you would say, But you know what matters is what the Feds are trying to say. And this, unfortunately, is where Quinn Norton comes into the story again. Okay, now again. Quinn is a journalist who's beat at this point. Heavily focuses on the hacker community and that corner of digital culture. She and Aaron had an on again, off again relationship for years, and she was a major part of his emotional support system after he got arrested and charged. Her close relationship with him and her history writing about hackers makes her a target for the Feds and one of the things I don't really understand about her is she's working with these people who are very much in danger, right, and who are very much breaking the law. Right. Some of the people she reports on are not people who stay within the lines the way Aaron had his whole life. Not making a judgment, that's just the truth. She has dog shit op sect. She will admit that. By the way, her op sect's not one thing. She takes as a habit, notes on basically every conversation she ever has and stores them on her computer, along with interviews and stuff with sources, which is not a good idea, right, really dangerous. So when this happens the FEDS start looking into her, and Quinn realizes this is happening, is like, if they get my laptop, not only am I potentially in some danger because I don't know, maybe she had been into some shit or it doesn't even matter if she had, right because the Feds are going after Aaron and he hasn't broke in law. But also all of her sources are in danger if they get this laptop. That's a bad situation to be in, a very scary situation to be in. Yeah, as a journalist, and I have some sympathy for that. She's also a single mother. And man, if you know anything about the FEDS and they love single moms. Yeah, nothing against that, but that's a weak point because they can come after you and say, you know, they don't even have to say it. They know if you're looking into them, well that you lose your kid, you could be away for years, you can miss their whole life, right, and that if you're single parent, single dad too, you're like, it is a thing. It's the same way like the FEDS go after addicts. Right, It's an easy way to get some charges on someone in an easy way to try to roll some right, it's just the way they work. I'm absolutely not making moral judgment here. It's one of the reasons why the system is so scary, right, because these are not vulnerabilities that mean you're not a bad person for being vulnerable to this. It's understandable that you'd be vulnerable. You have a person to take care of, you know, right.

Exactly, he is not. It is not like using a crowbar, because you use a crowbar to break things, and he has not broken anything. Right, he did not hack his way into the system, right, he had access to it. You know, the fact that this logic is nonsense and the fact that Aaron, again there's no proof he had intended to contravene the law in any way. You know, that's what I would say, what you would say, But you know what matters is what the Feds are trying to say. And this, unfortunately, is where Quinn Norton comes into the story again. Okay, now again. Quinn is a journalist who's beat at this point. Heavily focuses on the hacker community and that corner of digital culture. She and Aaron had an on again, off again relationship for years, and she was a major part of his emotional support system after he got arrested and charged. Her close relationship with him and her history writing about hackers makes her a target for the Feds and one of the things I don't really understand about her is she's working with these people who are very much in danger, right, and who are very much breaking the law. Right. Some of the people she reports on are not people who stay within the lines the way Aaron had his whole life. Not making a judgment, that's just the truth. She has dog shit op sect. She will admit that. By the way, her op sect's not one thing. She takes as a habit, notes on basically every conversation she ever has and stores them on her computer, along with interviews and stuff with sources, which is not a good idea, right, really dangerous. So when this happens the FEDS start looking into her, and Quinn realizes this is happening, is like, if they get my laptop, not only am I potentially in some danger because I don't know, maybe she had been into some shit or it doesn't even matter if she had, right because the Feds are going after Aaron and he hasn't broke in law. But also all of her sources are in danger if they get this laptop. That's a bad situation to be in, a very scary situation to be in. Yeah, as a journalist, and I have some sympathy for that. She's also a single mother. And man, if you know anything about the FEDS and they love single moms. Yeah, nothing against that, but that's a weak point because they can come after you and say, you know, they don't even have to say it. They know if you're looking into them, well that you lose your kid, you could be away for years, you can miss their whole life, right, and that if you're single parent, single dad too, you're like, it is a thing. It's the same way like the FEDS go after addicts. Right, It's an easy way to get some charges on someone in an easy way to try to roll some right, it's just the way they work. I'm absolutely not making moral judgment here. It's one of the reasons why the system is so scary, right, because these are not vulnerabilities that mean you're not a bad person for being vulnerable to this. It's understandable that you'd be vulnerable. You have a person to take care of, you know, right.

But fortunately she put her laptop hard drive into a microwave and they didn't.

But fortunately she put her laptop hard drive into a microwave and they didn't.

Get Unfortunately, that is not where this goes. So the Secret Service, and for a variety of complicated reasons, they have a lot to do with nine to eleven. They are the FEDS who wind up investigating this, right.

Get Unfortunately, that is not where this goes. So the Secret Service, and for a variety of complicated reasons, they have a lot to do with nine to eleven. They are the FEDS who wind up investigating this, right.

Okay, that's it's because of computer fraud.

Okay, that's it's because of computer fraud.

Shit, you know, it's just it's a it's a thing, right sure, in part because wire fraud and stuff like. There's that anyway, it's the secret service that is that is that are the FEDS coming out in this particular case, they show up at her door. She invites them into talk. Never ever do this, yea Quinn herself. She has written an article in the New Yorker and was like, this was a horrible mistake that I made. You should never ever do this terrible mistake. The logic she's acting under, I'm not defending this because this was a horrible decision. The logic that she says she was acting under is I haven't committed a crime. If I can explain that to them, maybe they'll go away right now. The kind of FEDS who do this job, who go door to door to people, have an understanding of how to be an interviewer. A major strategy anyone who does that job will tell you is to leave yourself. This is the true for journalists too. What matters most is keeping your subject talking, right, you do whatever you can to keep them talking, because the more you get from them that the higher the chance they're going to say something. You can take advantage of it. They might admit to a crime. They also, if you're a federal aation, they can lie to you, right, And it doesn't matter if it's you're lying about something that's not illegal. Lying to a federal ation's a fucking crime. If it's if they're interviewing you about, you know, a case. Right, you can get people on that, and then you have a thing to hold over their head. You have a thing you can get them to roll on.

Shit, you know, it's just it's a it's a thing, right sure, in part because wire fraud and stuff like. There's that anyway, it's the secret service that is that is that are the FEDS coming out in this particular case, they show up at her door. She invites them into talk. Never ever do this, yea Quinn herself. She has written an article in the New Yorker and was like, this was a horrible mistake that I made. You should never ever do this terrible mistake. The logic she's acting under, I'm not defending this because this was a horrible decision. The logic that she says she was acting under is I haven't committed a crime. If I can explain that to them, maybe they'll go away right now. The kind of FEDS who do this job, who go door to door to people, have an understanding of how to be an interviewer. A major strategy anyone who does that job will tell you is to leave yourself. This is the true for journalists too. What matters most is keeping your subject talking, right, you do whatever you can to keep them talking, because the more you get from them that the higher the chance they're going to say something. You can take advantage of it. They might admit to a crime. They also, if you're a federal aation, they can lie to you, right, And it doesn't matter if it's you're lying about something that's not illegal. Lying to a federal ation's a fucking crime. If it's if they're interviewing you about, you know, a case. Right, you can get people on that, and then you have a thing to hold over their head. You have a thing you can get them to roll on.

Right.

Right.

So she talks to these guys, right, bad thing to do, bad idea, don't don't do this. The conversasion ends with them saying, you have been subpoenaed and commanded to go to a grand jury. She lawyers up. She doesn't have a she's very not rich, does not have much money, and unfortunately one of the lawyers she get, one of them is a firm former prosecutor. They are not good lawyers to have in this situation. They urge her to comply with all of the requests the Feds make. Right, most lawyers will so I know too much? Ye, grand jury's most lawyers will push you to yes. Yes, this is not uncommon. The situation she is in is not an uncommon one. I'm not saying that to defend the choices she makes. This is just not a weird situation. The end result of all this is what is called a profit letter. Right. This is where the prosecutor says, we will give you immunity. It's usually like we'll give you immunity for a day. Basically we'll give you know, potentially we can extend this. You can have this conversation where basically nothing can hurt you, and if we find out you have information we want, then we won't keep fucking with you. That's more or less the offer, right. Quinn says, she talks this through to some extent with Aaron. It's unclear to me exactly how much he knows about what she's doing. At this point in time. She decides to do this, and again, her logic is, I am not aware that Aaron has broken the lawn anyway, and I have not broken the line anyway. What could this hurt if I answer their questions and they know I don't know anything, and all this ends.

So she talks to these guys, right, bad thing to do, bad idea, don't don't do this. The conversasion ends with them saying, you have been subpoenaed and commanded to go to a grand jury. She lawyers up. She doesn't have a she's very not rich, does not have much money, and unfortunately one of the lawyers she get, one of them is a firm former prosecutor. They are not good lawyers to have in this situation. They urge her to comply with all of the requests the Feds make. Right, most lawyers will so I know too much? Ye, grand jury's most lawyers will push you to yes. Yes, this is not uncommon. The situation she is in is not an uncommon one. I'm not saying that to defend the choices she makes. This is just not a weird situation. The end result of all this is what is called a profit letter. Right. This is where the prosecutor says, we will give you immunity. It's usually like we'll give you immunity for a day. Basically we'll give you know, potentially we can extend this. You can have this conversation where basically nothing can hurt you, and if we find out you have information we want, then we won't keep fucking with you. That's more or less the offer, right. Quinn says, she talks this through to some extent with Aaron. It's unclear to me exactly how much he knows about what she's doing. At this point in time. She decides to do this, and again, her logic is, I am not aware that Aaron has broken the lawn anyway, and I have not broken the line anyway. What could this hurt if I answer their questions and they know I don't know anything, and all this ends.

And this is also one of the only circumstances where if she had remained silent, she there are many systems by which she could go to jail without having committed a crime.

And this is also one of the only circumstances where if she had remained silent, she there are many systems by which she could go to jail without having committed a crime.

In civil contemptuary. Yes, so like it.

In civil contemptuary. Yes, so like it.

She is risking something if she decides to talk, which.

She is risking something if she decides to talk, which.

Is is a fucking scary situation. Yeah, her, no way around that.

Is is a fucking scary situation. Yeah, her, no way around that.

Every other country with Grand Juri's I think I think all of them abolished it. It comes from old British law, and everyone else is like, oh, this is a clear this clearly leads to abuse of power.

Every other country with Grand Juri's I think I think all of them abolished it. It comes from old British law, and everyone else is like, oh, this is a clear this clearly leads to abuse of power.

Let's get rid of it.

Let's get rid of it.

In the US was like, nah, we not get this is that's why we like it.

In the US was like, nah, we not get this is that's why we like it.

Yeah, so she does this, has this conversation. It's going to turn out to be another bad decision. And again she's in the position a lot of people are in this where you give them because you haven't done anything and you don't think your friend has, you give them a lot of information, and unfortunately she says exactly the wrong thing, which is she mentions at one point the existence of the Gorilla Open Access Manifesto and that Aaron had been one of the people who worked on it. Ah, that includes lines saying what people should do is gain access to Paywalt stuff that they have legal access to and put it up online for free.

Yeah, so she does this, has this conversation. It's going to turn out to be another bad decision. And again she's in the position a lot of people are in this where you give them because you haven't done anything and you don't think your friend has, you give them a lot of information, and unfortunately she says exactly the wrong thing, which is she mentions at one point the existence of the Gorilla Open Access Manifesto and that Aaron had been one of the people who worked on it. Ah, that includes lines saying what people should do is gain access to Paywalt stuff that they have legal access to and put it up online for free.

And so now you have a conspiracy case exactly because conspiracy cases don't involve anyone conspiracy rules.

And so now you have a conspiracy case exactly because conspiracy cases don't involve anyone conspiracy rules.

It's terrible.

It's terrible.

You don't have to break the law, like saying I am interested in the following crime is not illegal, and then doing something that's legal that is in furtherance of that crime is also not illegal unless you put the two together and then it's conspiracy.

You don't have to break the law, like saying I am interested in the following crime is not illegal, and then doing something that's legal that is in furtherance of that crime is also not illegal unless you put the two together and then it's conspiracy.

Yep. So that is the situation, right, And the FEDS, who I think are at this point, the Feds aren't dumb, right, That's one of the things you have to understand about these people. Not dumb, often lazy, And it's lazy that they didn't know about this, right because it's a secret, right, not hard to find out that Aaron had been one of the people who worked on this thing. They just you know, especially at that point, there's a lot less people who are FEDS who know the internet, you know, so they're not good at finding this stuff. Right. Once she mentions that this thing that is public knowledge, right, they're like, bam, we got a case, right, This is this is this is evidence that we can argue in court. Is intent. He has intent to distribute right, so intent to commit a crime. Right Again, the reality, as far as we can tell, Aaron seems to have moved on from that as a central issue in his life. He's kind of flighty about this stuff. You know, we don't fully will never fully know what he intended to do with it. But the reality didn't matter. The Fed's had the argument the AMMO. They needed to make a case, and that's what they're going to do.

Yep. So that is the situation, right, And the FEDS, who I think are at this point, the Feds aren't dumb, right, That's one of the things you have to understand about these people. Not dumb, often lazy, And it's lazy that they didn't know about this, right because it's a secret, right, not hard to find out that Aaron had been one of the people who worked on this thing. They just you know, especially at that point, there's a lot less people who are FEDS who know the internet, you know, so they're not good at finding this stuff. Right. Once she mentions that this thing that is public knowledge, right, they're like, bam, we got a case, right, This is this is this is evidence that we can argue in court. Is intent. He has intent to distribute right, so intent to commit a crime. Right Again, the reality, as far as we can tell, Aaron seems to have moved on from that as a central issue in his life. He's kind of flighty about this stuff. You know, we don't fully will never fully know what he intended to do with it. But the reality didn't matter. The Fed's had the argument the AMMO. They needed to make a case, and that's what they're going to do.

Right.

Right.