Yeah. My name is Clay Nukeleman. This is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called The Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and looked behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f HF Gear, American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. Remember that in Deliverance when I got come around the corner and there he said, who's picking a banger here? No story, You've never seen the movie in my life. I have not seen Deliverance either. I was not allowed to victorious scenes in that movie that I'd want to hear about it. Yeah, did you ever see that movie? Down? When did that come out? Reynolds Probably seventies, Slate seventies, wasn't it. I think it probably? Yes, MT seventy one. It was early s early Okay, yeah, I would say it was pretty early. I don't know what. Yeah, this is a this is an interesting topic of conversation we're gonna have today. Yeah it is. Yeah, listen, I want so what we do on the Bargeras Render. If you're not familiar, if you've just this is your first podcast, we have. There are two styles of podcasts under the Bargrease banner. So we have our what we just call straight up barg Rease, which is our documentary style podcast, which is gonna be multiple interviews telling the story, doctored up music, soundscapes, really polished and produced. That's that. Then we have the Bargrease Render, which is a group of us are five of us here right now that are gonna talk about the previous week's podcast, dissect it, talk about high points, low points, and so that's what we're doing. So that's what this is. I want to start off with you. Did you know that before Brent got here or when he When he got here, we kind of started talking a little bit and he said, you know, Clay, I kind of d about the podcast and I said, who whoa, whoa, whoa. I said, save that energy for the Render. I'm a whirlwind of emotion right now, really to the podcast. Good. So what I want to say is I want you to be absolutely free to say whatever you think because nobody's gonna judge me. No, this is ah, this is a safe place. Okay, good nobody else. But no, it's not like the other podcast where we were really limited, right, listen, this is what happens inside of social structures. Okay, so this is a social structure. You guys obviously are my friends. Want of you is my wife? Want of you is my father? Prince not related to me? Isn't needed? But you you kind of build a bias of positivity towards something, or you want to spend something so it doesn't hurt somebody's feelings, do you? You guys can't fully be trusted, and people are going to be too nice that they're not if they were inclined, if they were so inclined to be like man Clay, I really think you missed it on this one. Like I would want you to say that and just tell me why. I mean, that does mean no good to have friends that don't tell me the truth. Now all the other people that are listening that are my friends, I don't want to hear it. But the wounds of a friend can be trusted, right, I was a joke. I want to hear what people think, and I could say things right now. I think that would guide what you're gonna say in ten minutes from now? What do you mean like leading us? I just pe it happens all the time. People just they they are led into a tone of good. Not today, Dad can be can be led like a little sheep. Is sporting his regular gote, but his mustache is missing. Yeah, should he be wearing one of the mustaches? Yeah, yeah, we got of. There's even some gray ones in there. So today on the render we have Brent Reeves. Maybe you look a sharp Brent you got I would say you have on a moderately worn pair of overall stone washedid washed overall. Um. I noticed that you're running your crocs and air conditioned mode, no socks correct, and you have a beautiful bear grease hat on. You actually look really good. I mean it looks good. After after that introduction, I can hardly wait to hear what I've got to say. Hey, let me say I think that Brent might have the shine of a winner. He is that what it is? Well, since you brought that up, Yeah, and tell us would you win? Well, I'll tell you what It took. Took a whale to a coon hunt over in East Arkansas at Crockett's Bluff, and we went out on his second U K C hunt, And my gosh, we wanted want a cast. He did good, did good, and I got I got pictures from Alexis after the win. So what Brent did is he went to a competition coon hunt, which described the mood, the scene, the vibe. Man, it's a it was a community center over and Crocott's Bluff. It's a real old community and there's there's no township or anything there. It's just a community, a community of people. There's nothing as far as the city or anything like that. But everybody got there. And you registers in uk C event and you have to be there by a certain time. You know, pay you intry, you gotta be a member. You good dogs gotta be registered. And I drew out with another guy, uh hunting a walker dog, and one guy hunting a blue tick and one guy hunting the black and tan and great guys, great fellowship. Sportsmanship was good. I didn't find my coon. One of the guys I was competing against found it. He said, said, there's a coon right there. You know. He he didn't have to say anything. He could have just kept his mouth shut and that tree would have been, according to the rules, would have been a circle tree. But yeah, honesty and integrity prevailed and it was good. That's good. It was really good. So Wayland won his second cast win and and did he win the whole hunter? Just the cast, No, just that cast. There was there was not an overall winter. We had an early round which started around nine o'clock and then in the the late round started at midnight. So it was, you know, a lately long night. But but we had had a great time. Good. I went hunting one time this week and uh it took a fern in my new pup hoot and uh they trede one time. Didn't see the coon. I'm not fully convinced it was there. But we're gonna we're gonna try to do a little springtime hunting this year. Oh good. Yeah, it's fixing to get really good. The little ones to start when they come down everywhere. Brent saw a deer. He's sent me a video Dad of the deer completely submerged under the water except for its neck and head. Yeah. I saw that social media too, Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah you think that you think she was do you think she got scared here in whale and tree that close to her and just bedded down? It was Michael's dog actually is right there beside her and no on that. That deer was there ten minutes before the dog came in there. We just happened to be standing there, big. There's a bunch of deer waters up belove there where we hunt where Michael caught that coon and we watched him. That's eight feet underwater right now, well yeah inside that live but there were where we were at. So I've watched our friend Michael Roseman catch two coons by hand. Yeah, carry, Yeah, we saw the deer. We actually Michael shouted light up in there and he said, what's that And I said that a coon. He said, no, it's a deer. Look at it and you could see. I mean it was like a periscope death just read it from the neck up, sticking up out of the water and you'd bear to see her hand in But she was bedded right there. There was no mosquitoes, buffalo nets weren't weren't bad. It was cool. So, I mean, I don't know. I haven't decided if I feel like she was hiding because she saw you guys and just hunkered down the water, or if she you think she was actually bedded down. But man, I have you've come, you've walked up on deer before the oaks treat close to h they just they don't do nothing, They just lay there. So I just I have it's hard for me to believe that she wouldn't have walked off, that she would have just hunkered down in that water if she hadn't already been there. Weird though it was pretty cool. Well, I was just getting introductions Misty Dookam, Hey, good, Yeah, you haven't done anything like wildly wild in the outdoors, not have you? Well, I mean I got my garden going. Yeah, mrs Oh. Misty was on the Meat Eat Live show in Billings, Montana last week. It was a big deal. A lot of fun. Yeah, a lot of fun. I saw that on Instagram. That was intriguing. I'd like to have seen more. Unfortunately that show won't be broadcast on the Lead Eater podcast feed A live show. That's why you gotta go man. Hey, they were There were at least eleven d people there, as I understood it, maybe more, and everybody that came got one of Steve Ronella's books Raising Kids in the Inside World Indoor World. Yeah, and so the podcast was structured around raising kids and the outdoors to be engaged inside of the outdoor. So it's pretty cool and that's why probably why they had Misty on there. Uh and me. We have kids and uh so that was fun full incredible credentials. Yeah, we have kids. We have produced you want to find it wasn't a podcast. Yeah, yeah, that's right. It was a live show. It's a lot of fun. Um Chester Floyd played music at the beginning and end. Seth fleshed I'm just standing there for you. If you got board listen to you could just watch. Oh this is a So after the after the event, there was people that were in this auditorium that worked there and they come in after the show and clean the seats and stuff. And uh, there was an older lady that came up and she said, uh, she said, not to me, but to one of our guys. She said, what was that woman doing with those coon hides? I thought she said, what was that woman doing with all that meat? Well, yeah, yeah, that's what she said. But she thought Seth was a lady because Seth had big not really, but he had this big apron on. It looked like a dress you just walked in and he was wearing a dress. Yeah. So anyway, We thought that was We thought that was that was funny. Josh, you've been fly fishing a little bit. It's been really really wet here. It has been raining like crazy inches every day, and so I tried to do a little creek fishing yesterday but came up empty handed. But we went a couple of weeks ago to the White River. Christie caught up brown tea, and you caught me some rainbow t cat, Missy some rainbow trout home, so I claimed, Missy grilled him. Dad, you've been doing anything outdoors fun? You know? We took a little four wheeler trip up in northwest Arkansas. I put the old can am on the hill they call Highway to Heaven. Yeah, it did pretty good? Was it straight up? Pretty much? We used to This was in Pope County. Uh actually it was in Pope County, but it was a place we used to be. We used well poke what we used to jeep there. And as we were traversing this area, someone said, that's the hill We used to have trouble climbing in jeeps in these new side Besides, I mean they just on a scale of one to tend steepest you've ever done how does it rank? Oh? Um, it doesn't at scary in that when you got to the top there were really big rocks. You know, I thought I'd broke an axle on it, but it didn't. And uh, that's a hard that's a hard question because there's so many different type hills. You know, some hills you've got places where maybe you might flip over. You've got some hills that you hit at a high speed. You got some hills you crawled. This was kind of a all hill, but it was not a big deal. But out of a group of about ten vehicles, there were only two of us that tried it. Oh really yeah, so and we both made it. It was fun. Never come over backwards, have you? No? Never? That's amazing. Well, on a full wheeler one time, just playing around, I had one come over, but it wasn't even you know, it was just it was just a freak deal and you got off. Yeah. Oh yeah. It was one of the first clutch machines I'd ever driven, and I was just driving up, stopping and then rolling back and somehow I didn't do the clutch right flipped over. I remember, I remember when I first started hunting with y'all. I didn't grow up on four wheelers or anything. And Gary let me take his four wheeler out, and I remember I got I tried to cross the log lengthways and got high centered on the axles and the look of the skull when he came around the court, How could you have even let this happen? And he was like, get off? Did you know that there's some I tried back in the former Bear Hunting Magazine podcast days when we could just we just talked about whatever we wanted. I was gonna have dad and John Mesco, whose dad's best buddy down amna um tell some stories of them. Mesco more than once, like they had the haul him out of the woods and an ambulance or or or I mean he broke his leg one time while y'all are out in his shoulder one time, and his shoulder one time crawling up stuff and Mesco flipped their way. And then I don't know if you remember, but we were riding with some guys one time, and uh, you know, it was pretty it was pretty crazy ride and we just knew somebody was gonna get hurt, and sure enough, this guy did. And when the ambulance came. I went to get the ambulance, and the two ladies were driving the ambulance and they said, you can't drive an ambulance back there, and I go scoot over and they let me drive this brand new you know. But I got in this brand new ambulance and I drove it. If you know Wolfpin Gap. I drove that sucker way back in the Wolfpin Gap and when I stopped, it was just boiling over with smoke. But the guy lived, I mean, he was really What happened on that wreck, Well, he just hit a jump wrong and and the thing flipped on him. Instead of him doing anything to correct it, he just hung onto the handlebars and it just drove his head straight into me and on a side on the four winner. Yeah, wasn't. It's a long time ago, and Mesco knew what to do, and he you know, and I was definitely going to go get the ambulances. You drove that ambulance all the way back in the Yeah. Well, the other time that they are one of the times they were riding and it was just Dad and John and John Flips gets in the rack. You can go into details or whatever, but they had to make a splint and splint John's leg up and interesting him being a doctor, We're going down this steel. It looked like a cow's face. I mean it was just straight down. But we didn't have any choice. We got back in there, the woods got lost and John. I had John right on the back of my I said, John, we both had a brand new side. Besides, we don't have function foilers fowilers, And I said, you right on the back of my rack because this is like driving off of bluff. So he got on my rack road down on. So I started running back up the hill to get on his rack. But he thought I can do this. Well, he got halfway down and it didn't behave the way it was supposed to or the way he thought it was gonna behave, and it just it just like pitched him out into the air fifteen feet up and when he landed, it just snapped his leg. And then that that side beside a four wheeler just kept chasing him down the hill and it went five times. And when it got to the bottom, he's sitting next to a tree in the side besides, like right here, and it never touched him except the rubber. But to get him out of the woods. He goes, okay, cut six little sticks about the size of my thumb, six inches long, get your tarp out of the back, give me your duct tape. I had everything and he just made a cast for it. Was it his lower leg like a sin. Yeah, and so he rode my side. My wad are out side saddle with all that stuff on. It took us about two hours, three hours to get him to the hospital. When you hear that Endian the Jones music start playing, you need to stop whatever you do. Turn everything office. You can cut that out anyway. That's that's wild man. Um four Weather Stories. I wasn't planning to go there, but we did. Um. But that so this podcast, okay man, it's interesting because Josh and Britain have emotions connected to the podcast that I wasn't expecting Josh coming in and saying, yeah, I'm a I'm a I'm a whirlwind of emotion. You've got conflicting emotions. Yeah, yeah, Because I think the statement that that caught me the most was Andy Brown when he was talking about Louis Dale and he said he didn't do everything right, but he did a lot of stuff right, and that there's a juxtaposition there. That's like I think I feel the same way that you do, Clay. It's like there's so many good qualities and it's like does one cancel out the other? You know what I mean? And so it leaves you in this quandary of like and and not that you have to in your life support or not support someone. But you know, I I've known lots of people in my life obviously, as everybody has. But uh, you know I I remember when we first moved to Texas when I was a kid, there was a there was a guy. We we lived in this where we were poor. We lived in this little mobile home outside of this uh Junkyard, and I thought it was the greatest thing in the world because I would go wander around Junkyard. It was like heaven for me. But the guy that owned owned it, his name was von Arney. And I remember von Arnie. You'd go in his house and I remember, and I was like six, maybe six at this time. Well his his daughter with babysitting me while my mom was working and go in the house. And they had to trust your They had they had lots of mechanics and stuff that would come in and like every night they would just have ten fifteen people at the dinner table. His wife would just make enough food for a big group. But I remember von Arnie, and I remember like he was always real kind to me, but then I would see him deal with people, and I knew everybody kind of knew, like you love von but you can't quite trust Vaughan, you know, and everybody called him von Arni, von Arni, Hey, von Arni. Yeah, and uh, but I remember that same kind of feeling about this guy, like I really like him, but there's something about him that's like you just can't get settled about it. And I, you know, listening to the podcast, it kind of made me think of those kind of feelings about about Louis Dellen. Von Arney was a crook. He was a con man. I think the thing about these two guys, you don't condone what they did. I mean, it's just wrong, period. There's just no two ways to skin that cat. But they did so many good things that the good people didn't even do. I mean, they helped people that no one even knew about until the funeral. They did things that were way beyond the normal human activities. I mean, they were just so you can't spend it where what they did was right. It's just not. But but why do we like them? And the reason we like them is because they love people. They helped people, they treated people right. I would I would come completely agree with you because I think that that in a sense, some of the like the specifically the poaching, I think a lot of that was probably cultural. You know, from the way they grew up. You know, they took meat, and I'm sure you know there was a lot of distrust of the government, so you know, game and fish. Coming in and saying you can harvest x number of deer and x number of turkeys is like, this is my my country. You know, you don't you can't tell me what to do in my country. And so, you know, I totally agree. You know, it made me think about the scripture where it talks about when you give, you know, don't don't need to be recognized for giving. And you know, thinking about all the people that they helped that nobody knew about but them until the funeral, and uh, you know, I think those are there's some very commendable traits. It didn't do everything right, but they did a lot of things right. What do you think, Brent. It was a struggle for me. You know, I've been a in law enforcement for thirty one years and I have all has had the mindset that if I cla if I arrested you for something and you played not guilty and we went to trial and you were found guilty, I always thought, well, let's go back and charging perjury because he's obviously lying because he did it. Twelve people said he did. I found it very intriguing. I did not find him endearing at all, but no, not even a little bit. Um. But I also don't know him. I don't have the background that that Gary has, that Clay has, that you have from from being around these folks. But it was, um. It's hard for me, having been in situations where people were good, people make poor decisions in the heat of the moment. It's hard for me to find an endearing quality in someone who leaves the house with the purpose of doing something that ain't right. So the confrontation and and you know, I've said it on here before. If you want two different stories about an incident, get two people who said they were eyewitnesses to it, because people see things different. But to have uh, the internet, where the where it was a game warden or park ranger or whatever it was who was threatened over over the dog. When you put on when you put someone's you point a weapon at somebody there, you put someone's life equal to that of an animal. You know, it's life is precious, man. And I have seen so much stuff that people wished and that he's the moment they wished they hadn't hadn't done. And I can't imagine taking someone's life over an animal like that, if it ever happened, if it happened, if that's the way it happened, you know it was. It was just a struggle for me to to see that or to try to rationalize. That's why I wanted to hear your thoughts on it, because your worldview would be coming from a career of law enforcement. And that's that's the one place. What you wouldn't know is that I went to multiple people not to get permission. I got permission and the blessing from the family. That's who I went and said, hey, I'm gonna do this. I bounced this off many people, um law enforcement people to some of them people in in uh in government positions, just kind of like, Hey, what what would you think if I did this and it You know, you couldn't tell the whole story, and you couldn't. I didn't even know exactly what the story was. I mean I kind of grew up around these guys, but I didn't know the full story like I do now or more of the full story. Did you meet them clear? Oh yeah, I would have known them. I would have just been a kid. Uh uh. And I'll reveal later in the podcast and I might tell you now because I don't think I'm gonna include it. But like the times I met them, like we went to a we went to Louis Dell's catfish shootout body. I remember going to their house and fish. They hosted a big bowshoot and Louis Dell had a catfish farm. Um, and then you would just see him around. I knew who they were, and I knew Stony and I worked with Charlie's son once for several months on a Weldon gig um. When you're when you're a builder, yeah, when I was a builder. I think the story was I think the telling the story is important for people to know, and I think it was. It was good. There was another thing that bothered me a little bit, and it was some folks that commented after you've released it on social media of that even after I know of twice, if not three times, you said this is not glorifying or condoning what they did, and they were that, you know, we're kind of taking a back that you would would talk about this. You know that they kind of tried to throw some shade on you. And I want to say this right now, I don't know anybody then the last couple of years, during deer season, if it was this year or last year, whenever it was, they had a world class whitetail and not one for Arkansas, but won a world class whitetail in this part of the world. There was only a few feet inside a piece of property that Clay didn't have permission to hunt, and he let that deer walk off and he never seen him since, and he was by hisself, and there was no camera and there was no witness. Those guys would have shot that, dear, I don't know, and I'm not saying that I would have either, but I know that you didn't, and I know the purpose behind this was not to glorify what they were doing, but tell a good story, and it is an incredible story that and that brings up a great point for me to and you can help me work through this, because for real, I don't entirely have it all worked out exactly why I wanted to tell this story other than much of the well, all the topics in this podcast are going to be things that I am deeply intrigued by. I mean that that's that's the barometer, like where is my interest? Me and Dad and Scott Brown and and everybody that's down in Mina. Oh, all you gotta do to strike up a conversation with somebody is say something about Louis Dell and Charlie. We all want to talk about them, we all. I mean, I have no shame in saying I'm deeply intrigued by these guys and not. And it wasn't because they were outlaws. It was the paradox that they were outlaws with with with game Warden. And you're gonna see, you know, Louis Dell was a moonshiner, illegally making moonshine and stuff. But even inside of that, you'll hear the story and you'll kind of be like, Okay, but they were, and the way Dad said it was, they did a lot of things that the squeaky clean people that never killed an illegal turkey wouldn't do. And and that's where, well there's value in that well and and it doesn't. It's so it's not it's just the story I was interested in telling. And that's why in the very beginning I said, don't blame me if you're endeared to these guys. But also you get to make a choice. And I totally respect what you're saying, Brant, because it's not like I mean, yeah, we I mean truly disdain breaking game laws. I'll turn you in and a flash for bake breaking a game law, you know, I mean, it gets it's it's um. I don't know if it's if it's braggadocious or or or what it is to be able to if they killed a quarter of what they were accused of, but you know, it's a selfish way to look at it, you know, because they're the game laws are set there for everybody, and when they if they don't apply to everybody, that they don't work, you know. And I mean you look at where we are right now, Mr Charlie and Mr Louis Dale didn't cause us to you know, have low Turkey numbers now, But what would that be down there if if that hadn't taken place. Who knows. That's a micro way to look at that as far as that area that that they're from. But it was just, um, I just think it was a selfish way to look at it. You know, I agree with everything you're saying, uh, but there's another side you being law enforcement. I came into the hunting world where all I knew was quill hunting from my dad, and I do I didn't like it because he was such a crazy I mean, he just hunted all the time. I mean, you know, he just he not all the time, but when he went, it was it was work. I go, man, I don't want any part of this. So I had nothing to do with a hunting world until I got twenty six, and so I was introduced to bow hunting and I immediately fell in love with it. And I got to watching people and I saw nobody. Now take this literal, I'm telling you like I saw it. I knew nobody that wouldn't kill an illegal deer, and I'm like in a state of shock. I'm not gonna do that. I didn't have uncles that taught me that. I didn't have a dad that taught me that. Now, if you run up against Josh, he's a city boy out enjoying honting, you know, two or three times a year. Now, he's not gonna kill anything illegal. He read the regulations and just did what it said. Yeah. Yeah, But the die hard hunters, I'm telling you from my perspective, you got to keep that in mind. My perspective, they all killed illegal stuff. So where do you draw the line. I killed one person, I kill fifty people. I mean, you're killing stuff. It's illegal, And where is it bad. It's bad with one, it's bad with ten, it's bad with thirty. These guys took their bad ways and turn it in into a game. And I mean, you know, you know whether you like that or not. But but a lot of people, well a lot of people that are real hardcore kill stuff. So when I was talking to one of the law enforcement guys, and I won't say his name, but he kind of dissected a little bit of me with with of the podcast, and he said, he said, Clay, there are not old time poachers like there used to be, and Jimmy Martin said it too, there's a little bit of a potential. Well, I'm not justifying and I don't have to qualify that I'm not justifying their actions. But every time we look into history and see something that went on and then put today's value system on that thing, it doesn't mean that what they did was right. Then That's not what I'm saying. But it is different. And what what Dad's saying compares to what Jimmy Martin said and what this other law enforcement guy that I said that I spoke with, he said, Clay, things are not like they used to be. He said, the old time poachers are are pretty much gone. And and what he meant by that was used to you could go poaching, or you can you go hunting and illegally kill something and you had to go home to a landline phone to call in the game warden. Anymore, we have cell phones, we have self service. It's just much more difficult to hide stuff. You send a picture. So partly law enforcement methods I think have gotten better, but also it's just culturally not except there's the exception. You know there's somebody out there and probably like, yeah, I used to do that. But these character character types like Loui, Dell and Charlie, actually we're fairly common. Like I was talking to my friend, Um, I'll say his name, and he said that he knew some guys in a state and he said, Clay, they tried to kill a turkey for every year of their age, and they did it till they were forty. Oh my gosh, every season. So I was kind of surprised by that because you know, you kind of think that, oh, these outlaws are probably as good as they come, or you know, is is notorious as they come, kill as much. And I told you it's the story. He listened to it and he was like, yeah, I knew some guys like that. And it was in a state that had incredible turkey populations, and it was in the a part of the world that revers turkey hunting and um, and these guys were just wearing them out and they were basically doing the same thing as lou and Charley. They were. They were getting dropped off and hiding guns. I mean, that's kind of the norm. Um. The other reason that I did this is I part of what makes um light bright is darkness. I mean it's like we have built such a system and it's so deeply ingrained inside of me. Not that I do everything perfect, I've I've broke game laws before, but there and I'm gonna tell at him on the next party. They can go back to the Arkansas Journal. Yeah you find original, Yeah yeah, yeah, um. But I think it helps to see the big picture, and like I envisioned maybe some people new to hunting, like like you Dad, that you said when you first started big game hunting, you'd You've grown up doing some hunting, but big game hunting, and you were like, well, those are the regulations. Everybody obeys the rules, right, And then you got in there and we're like nobody okay, And that's just the way it was. I like the way Andy said it at one time when he said Louis Delle turned his dogs out in October one. He was like he was like, he's like laying out of his chair and he said, that's just the way it happened. Okay, I'm not saying it was right, you know. Anyway, point being, this is part of the culture that we're coming out of that I think we're doing a good job of saying we shouldn't do. Well, I'll tell you what this what this law enforcement guy told me. He said, the big time poachers of today. He said, there ultra secret you don't see him on the internet. Guy's posting stuff on the internet. Get caught. They're gonna get caught. But there are some people that are like high level, high level poachers that you just don't hear about, you don't know about, but are killing an incredible amount of stuff. So, Misty, what did you think. Well, it's it's so interesting to hear people, I mean to hear different perspectives, to even here that there are different perspectives. I'm just listening to y'all, and I'm I have a lot of thoughts. I was raised around outlaws. Do you know that Britain like bikers, And so my my dad was a minister and he'd go out to pretty rough places and you know, built a lot of try So we would get invited to you know, funerals and weddings and all sorts of things in some pretty messed up places. And those men were so nice to me as a little girl. I wouldn't have told you that, you know. So, and so I I felt real comfortable and and like these were my grandparents or my my uncle's theo. So those are the people that I was raised around. So I think I have a predisposition to see the soft, the kind side inside of pretty rough, rough characters, and to to like that, to to like people like that, just to feel safe with people who are you know, maybe weapons on on people. But I was just thinking about, like, you know, if you were to ask me, if if if you would ask me who those people were, I would give you a description of really nice people. People that always kept candy in their pockets and gave it to me, People who you know, just treated me real yeah and real, we're real nice to me. But I guess if you were to ask, you know, I'm sure the victims of their their crimes, like the guy he pulled the gun on, I would imagine he would not have a nice who's to say perspective? Yeah, who's to say what they really were? And I think that one of the things that we do a lot is we judge people based off of these really bad things they do in reality. You know, I've I've I work in kind of a different circle now then that I grew up in. And there's a lot of people that I trust, that looked really nice and that would never probably pull a gun on someone over a dog or for whatever reason. But I don't trust them at all. I don't and I don't think they're good people, and I don't feel safe around them, and I don't I don't trust them at all. And they can walk into a bank and get alone and be treated and I don't like them, and I don't feel I don't feel safe around those kind of people. And and I'm just thinking, like what makes a person? When Andy Brown at the very and said they were just so pure, I thought that is such an interesting, such an interesting way to describe them. They were just so pure, because it's this is the last thing I thought he was gonna say, Yeah, who who are we really? And you I think you see, in general, we want to be we want to be interpreted by our best attributes, by our And I think the reason that Clay and his dad have respect for these guys and I actually didn't know that my mom did, but I didn't, but they they have heard these other this other side of them. I just think people are so complex. And that's why the story Clay would come home and talk to me about these interviews. He was doing it about these stories, and I really enjoyed the stories because I think it really shows the complexity of people. And I think this day and age, we look at people and we say that person did this one time. And I'm not saying that's what you're doing, Britt, but I'm just saying, like in cultural today, we look at things that people did, mistakes, they made things law times that have changed, and we say that was evil and that person is evil. In reality, people do all sorts of crazy things. You know, if you even biblically, if you look at people like that God love, they did some really really crazy stuff. And I kind of I kind of feel some sort of comfort in the sense that you're not judged by those by your worst actions. Who you are is not is the sum of you know, kind of more the core of you then and the worst things you've done. And I feel like that's the story of the podcast kind of tells at Yeah, I just want to make absolutely clear, I'm not saying these folks for bad people. Yeah, And I you know, I said in the beginning that I set out to resolve inner conflict, which is just the truth inner conflict of why do I why do I like these guys? But they but they what they did I would absolutely not stand for. Like if I was in that if I Turkey hunted then saw him walk out of the woods with a gobbler two days before season, I would be chasing them down in the truck to turn them in. And then when I figured out who it was, maybe I you know, I think I think almost everybody has the feelings that Brent has, but not not the depth and you know you've got experience. But it's like it's like me, uh hey, I was for the game. I was for the game Wardens. I'll be honest with you. I love Charlie and Louis deal, but there's no way that uh I was for for what they were doing. And here's another thought, is I knew Charlie and Louis Deal as humans. I mean they when I saw Charlie and Louis Dell, I didn't think of Turkey poor poachers, even though it probably really did. But trying to make a point that they were they were hard working people that I enjoyed being around. I enjoyed talking to them and had come in my office and sat down and tell stories that they were just they were just good, good folks. Now they were Turkey poachers secondly, so you know we're looking at almost turkey poachers and then these people, but they were these people that poached. So I don't know if that yeah, well what what? What it says is that everything is complex. I mean, you know, like I saw some comment where just somebody said I don't revere these scumbags, and they were using my words because I said I revered him. And it's just like, I get it. If you there are places in that guy's life where I guarantee you he does revere somebody that if it was someone far off, he would say they're a scumbag. Point being, we it's just a complex story being a human. Yeah, what we're gonna say, Josh, Well, I was just thinking because I was thinking, you know, there is a there's a dichotomy here that that you know, we revere him and we don't like what they do. You. But I think I think a lot of times in situations like this, when you're talking about, for instance, poaching, um, there is a there's got to be the thought in the back of a man's mind that this isn't really hurting anyone, you know what I mean, there's and I think that's kind of a dividing line of what what you say, what's a bad person, what's a good person. I think in the back of their mind they're thinking, nobody's really getting hurt by this. It's just a law to try to keep you know whatever. But I'm not hurting anybody by doing it. And I think that that can that can be easily justified away by the good things that you do, you know what I mean, because you care about people and you know you look out for him, and you know, I'm just killing a few extra deer if you're killing a few extra turkeys. Now, when we take into consideration, you know, pointing a gun at a out an officer, that's that's well, let me tell you what. And this is kind of deep, deeper nuance inside of the takeaway from it, and I hope us was maybe portrayed at the end of the podcast when I gave my summary more than that part you don't listen to. If you could take the mold of those guys a mold and put something else different, maybe a little a little different concoction inside of it, I said that those guys could have given a master class on identity and being genuine, which are two things that are massively, massively in the mix in the fight for every person on planet Earth, every person in this room. Like we're kind, I mean the struggle of human nature is who are we? And I mean if you don't, if you don't identify with that statement, it's just because I didn't say it in your language the way that you would. Because you are you. You are trying to find who you are? Who? Who are you supposed to be? How are you supposed to act? What are you supposed to value? What do you supposed to say? Who you're supposed to love? Where? Where are you supposed to work? Where you supposed to put your energy? Where do you get your validation? Who do you want to say that you're good? Who do you want to you know? The identity and most of us and I'm I'm putting me inside of there are are? Our identity is shaped often in the negative space of I don't want to be like that, I don't want to be perceived this way. I'm afraid of this, I'm afraid of that, And so a lot of identities built out of insecurity and what I saw inside of interview and Charlie and loudl and I, you know, I was just a kid with these guys, so it's not like I had personal adult interaction. You know. Knew knowing them was that they really didn't care a lot about what people thought. They had this shape of who they were, they weren't ashamed of it. And Neil Taylor said it so well. He said they were content with who they were. They didn't want to be anything that they weren't, and they had a value system that they kept their whole life. And they were the same way with the game warden as they were with their best buddy down the street. It's like, what has value as a human the guy that you know? Let me ask every person that's ever that's listening to this right now, have you broken the game law? Have you killed one more than you're supposed to? Miss Nucam is the only angel here? Maybe Josh too, you accidentally? Okay, well you're a poacher? Um No, I can't even believe you. Listen. Here's here's my point is that Charlie and Louis Dell broke game laws and hid stuff, but they were they were upfront about it. They just war They knew it. Everybody knew it. We all knew it. People gravitate to someone that you can trust, even if you can trust them to be a poacher, you know what I mean. And that comes into play with the identity. It's like, it's like, yeah, the thing that makes people feel unsure is when you have someone that you don't think can't get to read exactly. I mean, what makes you more uncomfortable than meeting someone and thinking, I have no idea what's going on inside of I don't know if they like me or they hate me, or if they want to steal my money or stab me in the back or want to Andy said that, he said, he said, Louis Edwards didn't beat around the bush with anybody. He was just up front. Do you have an example of the way he would have been. No, not really. I didn't know him as well as Andy, but I knew him pretty well. I mean we shot bows together, and uh, he'd stopped by the bank occasionally and just visit. But I really can't elaborate on what he said. I can't give you a story, but uh, I agreed with it. I mean, he didn't put up any facades. I mean, if you didn't like your bow hunter, and you don't like the kind of bow he uses, you know how we do. If I if you gotta recurve, if you don't like my compound, if I got a compound, I don't like your gun. I mean, he didn't care anything about that kind of stuff. I mean, just you know, he he had dogs. If you don't like dogs, that's tough. You don't like my big guns, that's tough. Yeah. Uh, But you know, I just resect a certainty of it. I just do. I mean, and and and what we we've got to build is people that have a value system that's really good, have that kind of certainty, that have that kind of That's what I want. I mean, I and and Man, if there's one thing that I value inside of what I'm doing is that when I interact with people, and especially on something like this, when I'm really researching somebody, whether it's Warren or Glenn or Daniel Boone or Louis Dell and Charlie Edwards, which is wild that's probably never broken a game off. Oh come on, now, well since he was fourteen, Um, I know you're joking. He wouldn't he's a very he's a very good feller. The one thing about these guys too, Uh see, I was brought up in a home where, you know, it's pretty sterile, pretty pure, and in a way, Clay Nukelen was brought up in a home like that and missed he was and probably uh a lot of you guys listened pointed at Brent and then kind of turned the Strea. But dad's dad was a preacher. My grandfather was a preacher. So dad is a preacher's kid. So you know, hey, we're not all dealt the same hand. I mean, these guys were brought up by moonshiners that when they got up in the morning, their daddy's and mama's were going, now, you guys study hard at school and don't be getting in trouble, and these are our rules, and be good boys. Uh But they come home and they're making moonshine and the little kids are going, why are the cops gotta surrounded? I mean, you know, they're brought up if they see their heroes and their mentors and their leaders and and they're all a bunch of criminals. And so you got these little guys growing up in that environment and when they break out on their own, you see this kind of like Andy said, pure. I mean I don't necessarily agree with that word pure, but in a sense, you see this pure human that you're He's got honesty, integrity, handshakes. All you need. You just keep going on and on. You need help. He's there, just bam, bam bam, and you're going wow. And the guy killed a few extra turkeys. Now, which way am I gonna go with this guy? You know? And uh so they were brought up in an environment that you know, they were making a living illegally. Man, the I thought the I didn't know what I was getting into when I talked to Stony. They they literally just put out this three ring binder where they had laminated newspaper clippings from ninety six and it and it was all this stuff about the moonshine and getting you know, basically the police, you know where they were acquitted of murder and we don't know the whole story, but man was killed. Police were six police when we put on trial for murder. All of them were acquitted and a man and his coon dog were dead. Yeah, and it's in it point being just you know that the story lines up. You know, the story lines up. There's a trajectory there, there is you know this, this probably get me a lot of trouble, so you can cut this out. But I've always said the mafia, when they tell you they're gonna kill you, they're gonna kill you. You know, in other words, you can trust them. I mean that there's there's an integrity inside of every little system that if it's dealt off of honesty, it usually works. And they only honesty the Mafia has is if you disagree with him, you're probably gonna die. But you know, I mean, you know what I'm saying. Charlie's little group. I mean, all they're doing is killing turkeys, but they had this integrity that meant a lot to them, and they lived within those boundaries. I think what Misty said, and Brent, I want to hear your real thoughts, because I would love it if you just want. You guys are full of this philosophy stuff. But let me let me say this. What Misty said. When she said that, I was like, yeah, and I think this would be pretty deep. Inside of Missing in particular, is that there is a whitewashed righteousness that is just malarkey in the world where you see people that have a glimmer a shine of being perfect and they're not at all. And I mean, that's part of what is so intriguing to me about rural culture and poor people and all this stuff is that the world has said these people are not a value I mean essentially in some bigger macro picture of of of where value is. And that is something that from a lot, I mean just from birth. I kind of keyed in on that that that guy may look pretty, but he's a bad guy. That guy may have some rough edges, but he's a good guy. And that's like real strong inside of me, like I would rather well. And there's there's all kind of there's all kind of proverbs about stuff like that, you know better to better to say you're not gonna do it and then do it. Then to say you're gonna do it and not do it. You know, so might as well just portray yourself as whatever you want to portray yourself. A lot of that comes with the unknown. In other words, if I know Brent and I know what to expect, he can you know, he can do a couple of little goofy things and it's okay, I know what's going on. But if he's all polished and shined and trying to sell me a bill of goods and he's a cold man, like I shouldn't adjudged your old buddy like I did. It made the point, you know, a guy like that, where you're going, wait a minute, he treats me like a king, and then he's he's like, given this guy raw bill. But yeah, yeah, it's it's it's you're getting something that you don't see with your eyes. You know. I want to see the whole guy. Then I can deal with it, even you know, go back to the mafia, which kind of stupid. All I know is I don't know a couple of things. They're not gonna kill me, you know. Yeah, so at least I know where I stand. I don't want to be around these people. Yeah. But uh, but a lot of most folks, a lot of folks around you know, we don't know what we're getting. Well, you think, well, you have an opportunity to make good choices and bad choices, and there's always circumstances for that. The incident with the dog true or not. But I'm sure there's other things that have happened like that, not just to them, to a lot of people. You put your that they were out there breaking the law, and so they put themselves in that position. You know, nobody had told them to go run dogs on October the one. That may be what they did, but that doesn't make it right. And and it it brings up a a incident or an opportunity or something tragic to happen. Tragic, something tragic did happen when the guy and the coon dog got killed. You know Number one, why right around in a car. They ain't got no breaks in the mountains. That that was one thing I took away from that. Yeah, that was you know, if if he couldn't stop, why was he out there driving that thing? Anyway? That could have been a family spin the moon shin the you know, making moonshine. They wouldn't have been after him if they had not been making moonshin Now. You know, my dad, when before I was born, couldn't find a job in Southeast Arkansas. He went to Ipsilanti, Michigan and worked for Forward Motor Company up there on this Semon land because that's how he had to feed his family. He didn't he didn't stay at home and poached Yeah, in my or magic moonshine. That's a great love it brow. That's good. That's a good example. Your dad would have been about probably about in the same era as these guys. And but he which But my father had an absolute disdain for authority. He didn't like the police, and he got a whole family full of them. But which is another story. But I mean, you say, you you put yourself, you you put yourself in those kind of positions, and if you don't, a lot of that badness goes away. You know, I see some in my career. I've seen a lot of sadness and a lot of things that I wish I could I could not remember, but I know that they were the majority of the people that I saw do the most hideous things were also done some good in their life, you know, and they just got caught up in in a bad deal, in a bad situation and it didn't see a way out. And we're talking we're not talking about murdering folks were talking about killing turkeys, you know. I mean, I realized there's a heck of a difference. But right is right and wrong is wrong, And you make a choice and you put yourself there and they say the old saying is if you play stupid games, you'll win stupid prizes. So yeah, that's about my take on it. Yeah, yeah, no, that's good. I think it's a really strong point what she said that uh and and it and it's apples to apples saying my dad didn't have a job and he moved to Michigan and worked at the forward line. He didn't stay home and make moonshine and kill turkeys. I mean that that's that's a that's a valid point, you know. So everything that's been said is right, and that's exactly why I wanted to tell the story because it's it's an interesting human story and if nothing else, it'll make us have discussions like this, which I think are valuable and it'll bring some you know there there there are there's value in looking back. I mean, like, if it was wrong to talk about bad stuff that happened, then we would have to shut down the entire century between eighteen hundred and nineteen hundred on every level of human life, and we wouldn't talk about it. Well, that happens to be one of my favorite periods of American history. I mean, you know, I mean the market hunting and all the wild stuff that happened, And so we can look back in history and we can see stuff and we can learn from it. And this one it's a simple learn I mean, obviously we're not condoned. And anybody go kill a bunch of turkeys and if you do your stupid Yeah, and if a guy did that today, I would, I mean I would, I mean out right just would be a selfish, egotistical jerk. I mean like there would be no place if a guy today. But but and again, this was a long time ago, and maybe that is fariseical of me to say that, but um, and I'm not condoned. I'm not saying that was good. I'm just saying and these guys had character traits that were valuable, and that's what I'm interested in looking at, because man, you can look at a bunch of people that did a bunch of stuff right all the time and not have the tools that you need to be successful. Like we gotta look at a whole bunch of stuff. Everybody messed up, did stupid stuff, you know what I mean? Mm hmm. People are complex. I mean, that's the I think to me, that's the takeaway from that people and the whole story is that man, people are complex and they pull out complex emotions out of us. I mean, I think about all the the different people that I mean, even think about your dad, like you probably have all sorts of complicated feelings about him. You know, I'm just calling your dad out because he's not in the room. But think about your you know, like you probably have really positive feelings about him and really really negative ones as well. And you could say, my dad built this stuff in me and that was really good, and my dad built this stuff in me that it wasn't. And I think we've got a utrue right now that says, well, if there's anything bad, we're going to cancel the whole person. And I don't like that. I don't like that. I think that's really unhealthy. And I think the value of of what you did in this story. One of the things I appreciated about it is that you you kind of showed this complex picture of these people. He'll pull a gun on someone, and I don't feel like he told the best stories I've heard about them. I feel like I'm talking about positive stories. I think there's some really good stories about these guys that didn't get told because they're kind of hard to trace back and tell, you know. And I think some of the reason that I find these men endearing is because some of those stories, and those are the first stories I heard, and like I didn't hear about the Turkey poach, and I just heard about this other stuff and those some of those are going to come out and the second podcast, So just just for those following along, there's there was a Genuine Outlaws Part one. There's gonna be a Genuine Outlaws Part two, which is going to be another biopiece on Louie Dell and Charlie. So it's just gonna be more stories, except this one they get it. It's it's less poaching and more just some kind of wild stories about these guys, which in some ways is just entertaining to hear. And it just paints a colorful picture. And I think that it it shows an image of this part of the world, and and and I just want to tell that story. The third podcast in Genuine Outlaws Part three is gonna be I don't want to say, because I'm uncertain who I've got. What happens in part four I've gotten three three people that are willing to talk and uh man, they're they're like high level people that want to comment on this very particular thing. Yeah, and I think that that's part of the interesting part about this is that there are people who want to talk who our position to be against these people, even even Jimmy, I mean the game Warton's were I was shocked at what Jimmy Marton says. And they will not talk to Clay unless they're like, well, we want to know that the family, these are good people. We want to know the family supportive of it. And it's just it speaks to their character that people care about what what they think. You know, one thing Jimmy said that I might have misunderstood it, and I didn't agree with it. I don't think Louis Dill and Charlie built this myth. They told facts. Yeah, I think it's like Bonnie and Clyde every bank robber, that every bank that was robbed was done by Bonnie and Clyde, so the story got bigger than it really was. I'm hoping that's kind of what he meant, because well, Charlie, for sure, he was kind of a humble guy. A little bit I knew about him. I mean, he wouldn't he wasn't gonna go in lime Tree and Ragabat killing a bunch of turkeys at Well, I'm glad you said that because when I when I as soon as the podcast came out, Neil Taylor texted me and he said, uh, he said, Clay, they killed every turkey they ever claimed to have killed. He said, they liked to talk about it. They would like to brag a little bit, he said, but they were not liars. I felt like there was a u some journalistic integrity and me putting that in just because Jimmy Martin that's what he thought, and he had a right to have an opinion of whether they really killed as many as they did, and the tendency would be for the story to grow. Even though when he said it, I was thinking they killed every turkey they said. I really, I really believed it. But I want I felt like I owed it to Jimmy to put that in. That he did such a great job, you know, I mean it was he just made the story. But I think that one particular place, people like Andy and myself and other people would go no, if they told you they kill old thirty six turkeys. They killed thirty six turkeys. I mean that was part of the beauty of these guys. Yeah, yeah, I'm really glad you Just just for the listeners, can you guys tell us what the Lime Tree is? Landmark? Landmark restaurant. It used to be the Holland House. Andy Brown mentioned the halland now he said they need to go down to the Holland House. So we're gonna end this podcast on a high note. Okay, Gary Nucom hunted with Charlie Edwards one time when he first came into Mina. And I'll te you up a little bit with a little drama. So dad was a banker, a young banker and a small town with a bunch of little rug rat kids and came into Mina and uh, you know he was and he's got his reasons for why he went hunting with a guy. But you do know the full story of who this guy was. He was your customer, and and he invited you turkey hunting, and you're like, I'm gonna go turkey. No, don't don't get too carried away turkey hunting in early March. I invited myself. Okay, well, tell the story. Well, uh I turkey hunting for about ten years, and I didn't you know, I killed a few turkeys, but I just wasn't getting it, you know. And uh I didn't want anybody to call a bird it. I just kind of wanted to do it on my own. And finally I just told a friend of mine, I said, you know, I think I need to go out with a really good turkey hunter. And he said, well, I'm hunting with Charlie. I'm on hunting this group with Charlie Edwards Saturday if you want to come home. And so, anyway, I talked to Charlie and he said, yeah, come on, I'll take you hunting. Had you met him up, Yeah, yeah, yeah I knew him. I knew him, but I can't get all those details exactly right. But there was a third guy in Bobe, a realtor. And uh So, anyway, friend of mine called me and said, uh, man, you can't go hunt with these guys and game wardens. They're gonna be think as thieves out there after him, and I go, well, I'm not gonna do anything wrong, which might have been stupid, I don't know, but I said, I'm not gonna do anything wrong. So I'm going and so I went, and we ended up killing three birds, and uh, one big bird gobbled, which I just thought about this on the way up here. One big bird gobbled and we didn't go after it, and I thought, why aren't we going after that bird? I'm thinking he was saving it. So we go over here where there's a bunch of younger birds and he calls in a whole flock, you know, and uh end up killing three of them. He does, he did, he did. They were killing on his side. Actually he killed two, and he was wanting me to kill him, and I go, you know, they're on your side. I can't get around, you know, blah blah, And so he goes, okay, bam bam, kills two and then uh, he goes, you may call him back in again. I go yeah, And so we moved about ten or fifteen yards on this knob. He calls again. Here they come again, and they come up on his side, and um, anyway, he goes, shoot. I go, man, I can't. I can't get a beat on him. And bam. So he's got three. There's a three bird limit in Arkansas. So you know, I go, you're gonna tag those birds and he goes, nah, and so I didn't want to be accomplished to some major crimes. I didn't say anything, but we went to the whichish so so anyway, I mean I just said, okay, you know, that's your your choice, and we go to the store to check it in there big fork and he, uh, he didn't sign them in, didn't have him tagged, had him in the back of the truck right in front of the store. In a game warden pulls up right at the front door. I mean, I'm like, as much as I like Charlie, I'm like, I'm kind of for the game wardens, you know what I mean. I want to know, I want some of these birds for myself. And uh so guy comes in and Charlie just starts signing these birds in. Hey, how you doing there, game warden. And you know, meet my best friend here, Gary Nukeleman. This this realtort. You played interference, and you know, we just got the talk and the guy never went out and looked at the back of that truck and uh but it was just real fun. Charlie was real nice and polite, and you know, he could call like a crazy man. And I mean he had that big long, what thirty two inch barrel on that gun? Yeah, thirty, I asked Stony, it's thirty uh, thirty six maybe thirty six. I mean it's he called it a long time, long time. I mean that sucked. Will beat way out there. But the point of it, and the way I remember Dad telling that so many times, was that the game wardens could have caught him. The game warden didn't do and it wasn't Jimmy Markin it was. It wasn't Jimmy. It was a different game warden. And he just pulled right up in front, right close to Louis Delle's Charlie's truck and walked in and Charlie saw him. And if the game warden had just walked over to the back of the truck, he just would have seen untagged birds, not signed in because back then you had put a tag on it and signing in and so just the way it worked like it was just no big deal and it was kind of a fumble. It felt like, if they're trying to catch them, is that That's the way it appeared to me. So all the years they never got busted. Well wait till episode two wait till episode to Turkey, Honey, I don't think maybe earlier, well I will foreshadow they they have been, but they did get busted with the legal turkey getting early on when they were young. Why did you just that's not foreshadowing, that's like that's like jump there, like well, I mean I pretty much said it in the podcast, didn't it. Yeah, I think it's good. Or Isaac could just beat that whole thing out like three always everybody always got a big kick out of that story and they still do and mean that today that Gary knucoln went hunting with Charlie Edwards, okay kill and Charlie Kilter. Let me tell you well, and right here, the one interaction that I had with Charlie Edwards, like face to face, like where we're talking. The only time I remember talking to him. I must have been a teenager and I was at Big Fork and I was I cannot remember who I was hunting with. I was hunting somebody. We pull up to the Big Fork store and we're in our camo and it's Turkey season, and well there's Charlie Edwards and he's just we just kind of meet him and he's like I assume I do not remember this. I assume he's said, well, y'all do any good. And we talked about turkey hunting. And he has the long Tim in his truck, which is this giant gun. It's spray painted green when I when I saw it, it it was spray painted like a like a like a spring green. And he pulls the gun out and he says, look at this, and he hands me the long Tim and I'm holding it in the parking lot and he goes look down the barrel of that thing clay and the phraseology of it. And my young, non abstract thinking, childhood mind thought that was an odd way. Like I said, look down the barrel and he said yeah, And I says it loaded, and he said yeah, don't pull the trigger. He for real said that the gun was loaded, which was would have been illegal to driver, but he he said, and what he wanted me to do was just shoulder the gun and looked down the barrel. Well, I took the shot on the ground and look down the barrel. He's like, he's what he never said anything, but he had to have been just like kid. But I remember really question him. I said, look down there, just look down the barrel is it loaded? There's psychological studies that have been done on this phenomenon where you do something you know you shouldn't do just because someone say, yeah, he would have been like jump off the cliff would have been like really I was? I mean it was probably do that was I have a look down the barrel time like many a gobbler. You may be the only thing with a beard that lived through this. Oh hey, while we're closing. Um, Bargera's merch is all over. Bargery's hats are like for real in right now you can order real bar grease hats. I can stop getting them from China now. Yeah. That somebody ordered one of those knockoffs and it was pretty rough. Um. There's also the Acorn burgera shirt, which is my favorite. There's also an owl looks a whole lot like a land Bridge mustache. If you haven't seen this shirt, acre I was I was going to talk about. Um. It says a k E r in as an acorn the way that the country pronounces it. And there's a big, beautiful acren that's the shape of a man's head. Acorn has a beard and a giant mustache that says bear grease. This is an epic T shirt design it um, so you can get that. And then there's another cool T shirt. Saw that T shirt design scribbled on a legal pad at one point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is I design this, I design this. Do me a favorite, Go buy one where it proudly. Then there's a there's another shirt of a barred owl, a beautiful rendition of a barred owl, full eagle, spread eagle, um spread owl, and it and it and it says like a quote and it says barred owl. You know. I love it, like someone said something and you put their names. Yeah, and it says it pronounces it phonetically. And then there's another beautiful shirt of a jar of bear grease that says bear grease and the lists all the different uh uses of bear grease underneath it. So it's pretty cool shirts. So, and then there's the Gary Newcomb Believer hats. Dad's name is actually on the web site signature. It says inspired by Gary Newcomb hat. They sold those. They sold out of those in like a day, but I think they're getting them back. Um. So hey, great conversation, Thank you all so much. You're welcome. Two th