With Bitcoin ETFs now active, you might be feeling slightly sheepish to ask what exactly is a Bitcoin ETF? No need for you to feel sheepish. We're going to ask the question for you as we welcome Patrick Doherty to the show. A teacher of digital assets at Cornell Law School, Mr. Doherty has contributed several books on securities regulation and new financial products. He was with the SEC during the Reagan Bush years and helped craft regulations, which are used today to sell tokens and compliance with US securities law. Asking questions sheepishly doesn't make you a sheep, just an inquisitive person. So join the herd at the Republic of Bad Cryptopia as we discover everything you wanted to know about Bitcoin ETFs, but we're afraid to ask on episode number 710. Of the Bad Crypto Podcast 54310.

With Bitcoin ETFs now active, you might be feeling slightly sheepish to ask what exactly is a Bitcoin ETF? No need for you to feel sheepish. We're going to ask the question for you as we welcome Patrick Doherty to the show. A teacher of digital assets at Cornell Law School, Mr. Doherty has contributed several books on securities regulation and new financial products. He was with the SEC during the Reagan Bush years and helped craft regulations, which are used today to sell tokens and compliance with US securities law. Asking questions sheepishly doesn't make you a sheep, just an inquisitive person. So join the herd at the Republic of Bad Cryptopia as we discover everything you wanted to know about Bitcoin ETFs, but we're afraid to ask on episode number 710. Of the Bad Crypto Podcast 54310.

It's insane. Who's bad? And.

It's insane. Who's bad? And.

I am feeling she is telling me how to vote.

I am feeling she is telling me how to vote.

Man. Are you. Are you too scared to ask?

Man. Are you. Are you too scared to ask?

Man, I'm too afraid to question authority. Hey.

Man, I'm too afraid to question authority. Hey.

Very good. Well, welcome to episode number 710 of the Bad Crypto Podcast. We got a good one today, folks. We're talking about Bitcoin ETFs and all the things around that thing that you might not know about.

Very good. Well, welcome to episode number 710 of the Bad Crypto Podcast. We got a good one today, folks. We're talking about Bitcoin ETFs and all the things around that thing that you might not know about.

And we're going to make it really sexy because Bitcoin ETFs can be you know this whenever you talk about financial instruments it can be really boring. But Patrick is not boring. And we are super sexy. So all the questions will be asked with more male music going in the background.

And we're going to make it really sexy because Bitcoin ETFs can be you know this whenever you talk about financial instruments it can be really boring. But Patrick is not boring. And we are super sexy. So all the questions will be asked with more male music going in the background.

Patrick Doherty.

Patrick Doherty.

Oh, yeah. Oh, and stay tuned on the other side because all of the crypto bull dragons you guys bought them, they're gone. You own them. 24 of them are now in the firm hands of those who own a crypto bull dragon. And we're going to announce when you're going to be able to join us. Only those 24 are going to be able to join us for a special two hour meeting with myself. Sir. Lord Travis are going to be there. So we're going to share that with you on the other end of this interview that happens to be coming up well right now ETFs ETFs ETFs Bitcoin spot. It's all the rage right now. Of course we've covered this in the form of the latest news on our show. But what does it all mean. And here with us today to help break it down we've got an Irishman. His name is Patrick Doherty. Yes. And he is. He conceived and directs the digital assets practice of Foley and Lardner LLP, based in Chicago. He also teaches digital assets at Cornell Law School. He's got a whole litany of things that he's done, including working for the SEC during the Reagan Bush years, all those years ago. And he's got a lot to say about what these ETFs might possibly mean for the future of crypto, Bitcoin, our economy and blockchain in general. Patrick, welcome to the Bad Crypto podcast.

Oh, yeah. Oh, and stay tuned on the other side because all of the crypto bull dragons you guys bought them, they're gone. You own them. 24 of them are now in the firm hands of those who own a crypto bull dragon. And we're going to announce when you're going to be able to join us. Only those 24 are going to be able to join us for a special two hour meeting with myself. Sir. Lord Travis are going to be there. So we're going to share that with you on the other end of this interview that happens to be coming up well right now ETFs ETFs ETFs Bitcoin spot. It's all the rage right now. Of course we've covered this in the form of the latest news on our show. But what does it all mean. And here with us today to help break it down we've got an Irishman. His name is Patrick Doherty. Yes. And he is. He conceived and directs the digital assets practice of Foley and Lardner LLP, based in Chicago. He also teaches digital assets at Cornell Law School. He's got a whole litany of things that he's done, including working for the SEC during the Reagan Bush years, all those years ago. And he's got a lot to say about what these ETFs might possibly mean for the future of crypto, Bitcoin, our economy and blockchain in general. Patrick, welcome to the Bad Crypto podcast.

Thanks for having me Joel. Yeah, Travis as.

Thanks for having me Joel. Yeah, Travis as.

Well. And other guy Travis to you guy over here.

Well. And other guy Travis to you guy over here.

This is me. Yeah, yeah.

This is me. Yeah, yeah.

Don't forget the other guy. Um, just so we have a firm foundation to go on so people understand the the credibility of the thoughts you're going to share, the words you're going to say, and perhaps the jokes that you'll make with us along the way. Uh, go ahead and fill in. Put a little bit more meat on the bones of your bio for me.

Don't forget the other guy. Um, just so we have a firm foundation to go on so people understand the the credibility of the thoughts you're going to share, the words you're going to say, and perhaps the jokes that you'll make with us along the way. Uh, go ahead and fill in. Put a little bit more meat on the bones of your bio for me.

Yeah. Well, um. As you can tell if you're looking at this, I've got some age. I'm well into my 60s now, and for 40 years I was a trad fi lawyer doing IPOs, takeovers, that sort of thing. I still do that work, but about seven years ago, I went down the rabbit hole of crypto and have been since then been advising prop traders, exchanges, token issuers, funds, really everyone across the entire, uh, ecosystem. Uh, and I do some. Volunteer work on the legislation that's coursing through Congress right now. I teach at Cornell, as you mentioned, and I live in Chicago. I also lecture at Northwestern Law School in Chicago and several others when I'm not at Cornell.

Yeah. Well, um. As you can tell if you're looking at this, I've got some age. I'm well into my 60s now, and for 40 years I was a trad fi lawyer doing IPOs, takeovers, that sort of thing. I still do that work, but about seven years ago, I went down the rabbit hole of crypto and have been since then been advising prop traders, exchanges, token issuers, funds, really everyone across the entire, uh, ecosystem. Uh, and I do some. Volunteer work on the legislation that's coursing through Congress right now. I teach at Cornell, as you mentioned, and I live in Chicago. I also lecture at Northwestern Law School in Chicago and several others when I'm not at Cornell.

Is the law school in Evanston as well, or is, uh, is it actually located?

Is the law school in Evanston as well, or is, uh, is it actually located?

No, it's it's it's it's downtown in Cedarville. Mhm. Uh, and uh, uh, you know, along with the medical school, it's near the hospital.

No, it's it's it's it's downtown in Cedarville. Mhm. Uh, and uh, uh, you know, along with the medical school, it's near the hospital.

Got it. All right. Well, let's let's, uh, let's start at a really high level and then we can drill down on this, these ETFs of course. Long anticipated. Uh, turns out the price of Bitcoin had the anticipation built into the rumor. The news hit Bitcoin's currently down. Um, explain. For those of us that think on a 12 year old level what these mean.

Got it. All right. Well, let's let's, uh, let's start at a really high level and then we can drill down on this, these ETFs of course. Long anticipated. Uh, turns out the price of Bitcoin had the anticipation built into the rumor. The news hit Bitcoin's currently down. Um, explain. For those of us that think on a 12 year old level what these mean.

Oh, well, you can think of it as, uh. Uh, a pot of Bitcoin that's held, you know, by a fund, by a sponsor. Uh, the fund issues shares in, in it, in it, uh, and those shares trade on a stock exchange in this case NYSE Arca. So you buy and sell the shares which represent interests in in Bitcoin instead of owning Bitcoin directly or in addition to that if you so desire.

Oh, well, you can think of it as, uh. Uh, a pot of Bitcoin that's held, you know, by a fund, by a sponsor. Uh, the fund issues shares in, in it, in it, uh, and those shares trade on a stock exchange in this case NYSE Arca. So you buy and sell the shares which represent interests in in Bitcoin instead of owning Bitcoin directly or in addition to that if you so desire.

So we just assuming that they're holding it then. Right. So we. So it seems like the regulation it seems like they have to be holding it. And so as the price of Bitcoin goes, the more that they hold like the like for example, to me it seems like wow, what if MicroStrategy did a Bitcoin ETF right. They have so many bitcoin like that could be.

So we just assuming that they're holding it then. Right. So we. So it seems like the regulation it seems like they have to be holding it. And so as the price of Bitcoin goes, the more that they hold like the like for example, to me it seems like wow, what if MicroStrategy did a Bitcoin ETF right. They have so many bitcoin like that could be.

Well that's that that's that's a really good point I mean these are audited. So yeah the Bitcoin's really there because auditors confirm it. And you're right MicroStrategy owns an awful lot of Bitcoin. It is kind of sort of like an ETF. It does have other business. It doesn't only hold Bitcoin. So it's not a pure play the way these funds are. These funds are pure plays. If you own shares of a Bitcoin ETP exchange traded product you own an indirect indirect interest in bitcoin and and nothing else. Mhm. Uh. So it is as if you held the, uh, you held the, the cash product itself.

Well that's that that's that's a really good point I mean these are audited. So yeah the Bitcoin's really there because auditors confirm it. And you're right MicroStrategy owns an awful lot of Bitcoin. It is kind of sort of like an ETF. It does have other business. It doesn't only hold Bitcoin. So it's not a pure play the way these funds are. These funds are pure plays. If you own shares of a Bitcoin ETP exchange traded product you own an indirect indirect interest in bitcoin and and nothing else. Mhm. Uh. So it is as if you held the, uh, you held the, the cash product itself.

So how do, um, how are we assured via these audits? We know that audits are only as reliable as the people who are auditing them, that the same thing that's happened with the precious metals market, uh, silver and gold being traded heavily on paper and thereby manipulating the price of metals to be as low as they are. How do we know that same thing won't or perhaps can't happen with the Bitcoin ETFs? Well.

So how do, um, how are we assured via these audits? We know that audits are only as reliable as the people who are auditing them, that the same thing that's happened with the precious metals market, uh, silver and gold being traded heavily on paper and thereby manipulating the price of metals to be as low as they are. How do we know that same thing won't or perhaps can't happen with the Bitcoin ETFs? Well.

Smart question because you know that's been a concern of the SEC all along. Uh you know these these have been proposed now for more than ten years. That's how long it took to get one through the SEC. We can talk about that too. But, uh, how do we know it's not manipulated? We don't know for sure, but there are surveillance agreements between the sponsors. Well, between the listing exchange on the one hand and, uh, the CME on the other, which is where the where the futures contracts trade and those surveillance agreements, uh, you know, help detect possible manipulation. Uh, is it perfect? No. Is it pretty good? Yeah. Probably is. Um. Uh, all I won't say. Oh, commodities. But many commodities are susceptible to manipulation because the cash markets are very thinly regulated. Um, so it is an issue. It is a concern. And but that's something that investors take into account in making up their minds whether they want to buy this or not. I mean, if these are spelled out as risk factors in the prospectus, you know, this could be this product could be manipulated or the underlying the underlying market could be manipulated. And if it is, you could suffer for that. So you take your chances if you buy. Mm.

Smart question because you know that's been a concern of the SEC all along. Uh you know these these have been proposed now for more than ten years. That's how long it took to get one through the SEC. We can talk about that too. But, uh, how do we know it's not manipulated? We don't know for sure, but there are surveillance agreements between the sponsors. Well, between the listing exchange on the one hand and, uh, the CME on the other, which is where the where the futures contracts trade and those surveillance agreements, uh, you know, help detect possible manipulation. Uh, is it perfect? No. Is it pretty good? Yeah. Probably is. Um. Uh, all I won't say. Oh, commodities. But many commodities are susceptible to manipulation because the cash markets are very thinly regulated. Um, so it is an issue. It is a concern. And but that's something that investors take into account in making up their minds whether they want to buy this or not. I mean, if these are spelled out as risk factors in the prospectus, you know, this could be this product could be manipulated or the underlying the underlying market could be manipulated. And if it is, you could suffer for that. So you take your chances if you buy. Mm.

It does sound like the, the potential for, you know, some corruptions seems to be because it's so weird to me, Patrick, about how, you know, uh, Larry Fink of Blackrock was like no big con. And then all of a sudden he's like, oh my God, I'm a big believer in Bitcoin. Yeah well Bitcoin like what what is going what has changed his mind. It's weird to me.

It does sound like the, the potential for, you know, some corruptions seems to be because it's so weird to me, Patrick, about how, you know, uh, Larry Fink of Blackrock was like no big con. And then all of a sudden he's like, oh my God, I'm a big believer in Bitcoin. Yeah well Bitcoin like what what is going what has changed his mind. It's weird to me.

There are a lot of new converts uh in the trad fi institutions right. The big asset managers, the investment banks. Uh. You know what changed their mind? I don't know, but I know it's a big market. Possibly the ability to sell a lot of product here has got to be a motivation for some. Um. Uh, the, uh, you know, the the the chairman of, uh, Morgan Stanley, I should say the recently retired CEO of Morgan Stanley, still on the board, um, said, uh, I think just last week that he thinks that, um, you know, Bitcoin has a place, albeit a very small place. Those are the words he used. Very small place in the portfolio of wealthy people. Um, but that is highly speculative. Um, uh, instrument and, uh, needs to be understood that way. Uh, so. I'm not a finance guy. I don't give financial advice, but I think a lot of asset managers are saying something like 1% of a portfolio might be in crypto assets and particularly Bitcoin. Some say 1 to 5%. Again, that's not advice from me. I'm just saying that's what they're saying on the street now. Um, and then others say 0%. Vanguard apparently has decided that they're not going to allow their customers to buy any of these Bitcoin. Uh, exchange traded products. And so if you're a Vanguard customer and you don't like it, you got to open an account somewhere else.

There are a lot of new converts uh in the trad fi institutions right. The big asset managers, the investment banks. Uh. You know what changed their mind? I don't know, but I know it's a big market. Possibly the ability to sell a lot of product here has got to be a motivation for some. Um. Uh, the, uh, you know, the the the chairman of, uh, Morgan Stanley, I should say the recently retired CEO of Morgan Stanley, still on the board, um, said, uh, I think just last week that he thinks that, um, you know, Bitcoin has a place, albeit a very small place. Those are the words he used. Very small place in the portfolio of wealthy people. Um, but that is highly speculative. Um, uh, instrument and, uh, needs to be understood that way. Uh, so. I'm not a finance guy. I don't give financial advice, but I think a lot of asset managers are saying something like 1% of a portfolio might be in crypto assets and particularly Bitcoin. Some say 1 to 5%. Again, that's not advice from me. I'm just saying that's what they're saying on the street now. Um, and then others say 0%. Vanguard apparently has decided that they're not going to allow their customers to buy any of these Bitcoin. Uh, exchange traded products. And so if you're a Vanguard customer and you don't like it, you got to open an account somewhere else.

I think they are too. I mean, at least I noticed on X that people are very verbal. They're like, okay, fine. I just tell you, yeah, that's fine. I want us to be your customer.

I think they are too. I mean, at least I noticed on X that people are very verbal. They're like, okay, fine. I just tell you, yeah, that's fine. I want us to be your customer.

You know, you don't want to sell it. I'll go to fidelity or I'll go somewhere else. So, um, there is an awful lot of demand for this product when when grayscale proposed to list and got denied and then sued. And then one. That's a great story in itself. But when they did that, there were thousands of comment letters to the SEC saying, please approve this. That came from people who really wanted to buy the product. And the SEC wasn't let them letting them buy it. Uh, because the SEC is you basically was in so many words, we understand this better than you. We know what's good for you better than you do. And we don't think this is something you should invest in. That's called merit regulation. And they're not supposed to do that.

You know, you don't want to sell it. I'll go to fidelity or I'll go somewhere else. So, um, there is an awful lot of demand for this product when when grayscale proposed to list and got denied and then sued. And then one. That's a great story in itself. But when they did that, there were thousands of comment letters to the SEC saying, please approve this. That came from people who really wanted to buy the product. And the SEC wasn't let them letting them buy it. Uh, because the SEC is you basically was in so many words, we understand this better than you. We know what's good for you better than you do. And we don't think this is something you should invest in. That's called merit regulation. And they're not supposed to do that.

It's so nice that they're there to protect us. Uh, you know, I mean, meanwhile, they issue a, uh, a fake tweet saying that the ETFs are approved, Bitcoin goes up a thousand, and then they retracted 20 minutes later saying that that wasn't an official tweet. And 90 million in Bitcoin were liquidated. Yeah. We're supposed to trust that these people really not only are interested in protecting us, but are capable.

It's so nice that they're there to protect us. Uh, you know, I mean, meanwhile, they issue a, uh, a fake tweet saying that the ETFs are approved, Bitcoin goes up a thousand, and then they retracted 20 minutes later saying that that wasn't an official tweet. And 90 million in Bitcoin were liquidated. Yeah. We're supposed to trust that these people really not only are interested in protecting us, but are capable.

Well that that that was uh, there's a federal investigation into that, as you can imagine. And, um. Congressional leadership, uh, sent sent letters to the FCC the same day saying, what's going on here? And, oh, by the way, you demand, uh, a great cybersecurity from the list of companies who whose stocks, uh, uh, you oversee, whose stock trading you oversee. But you can't do it yourself. So, um. It. I mean, I don't know what happened there yet. I don't think any of us know yet. It's under investigation. But you're right, it did, cause. Damage in the market because people transacted based on bad information that, it turns out, didn't really come from the SEC, but it sure looked like it had.

Well that that that was uh, there's a federal investigation into that, as you can imagine. And, um. Congressional leadership, uh, sent sent letters to the FCC the same day saying, what's going on here? And, oh, by the way, you demand, uh, a great cybersecurity from the list of companies who whose stocks, uh, uh, you oversee, whose stock trading you oversee. But you can't do it yourself. So, um. It. I mean, I don't know what happened there yet. I don't think any of us know yet. It's under investigation. But you're right, it did, cause. Damage in the market because people transacted based on bad information that, it turns out, didn't really come from the SEC, but it sure looked like it had.

Mm. So let me ask this. So how do you think that these um the Bitcoin ETF. How do you think that that it's going to be overall considering that you know Satoshi Nakamoto. He doesn't he doesn't really want more intermediary involvement from big you know big thing. So it's like a I don't know it's a paradox.

Mm. So let me ask this. So how do you think that these um the Bitcoin ETF. How do you think that that it's going to be overall considering that you know Satoshi Nakamoto. He doesn't he doesn't really want more intermediary involvement from big you know big thing. So it's like a I don't know it's a paradox.

It is. Uh, you're spot on, correct. Travis. I mean, uh. It's ironic that, uh, the, uh, this product which is going to lead, is leading, I believe, into deeper retail, uh, investment in the asset. Is, uh, involves all these centralized institutions. I mean, Satoshi's idea was peer to peer. You know, it was, you know, I sell Bitcoin to you. You sell it to Joel using our, you know, our handheld devices and, you know, without any custodian other than ourselves and certainly without any, uh, exchange or investment bank or brokerage fee firm charging a commission, by the way. Uh, so, yeah, I guess I need to own a ledger or a trazer or something like that. And I can buy one for 50 bucks, a hundred bucks to do it. But I shouldn't have to pay, you know, an an AUM fee to do that. So. So that was his idea, right. And that but that's not where we are now. And the reason we are now is because it's so incredibly convenient to use a stock broker. And for the stock broker to be, uh, a member of a stock exchange where the shares trade. And oh, by the way, notice this carefully. The SEC is very involved in all of that. So part of the Satoshi's vision was decentralised, not just away from the banking industry, but also away from the government. Mm. And, and so some people look at this and they say, you know, this is a Trojan horse. Uh, Chair Gensler has brought us this slew of ETFs, and I'm not sure he really wanted to, but the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals basically said you kind of sort of need to do this.

It is. Uh, you're spot on, correct. Travis. I mean, uh. It's ironic that, uh, the, uh, this product which is going to lead, is leading, I believe, into deeper retail, uh, investment in the asset. Is, uh, involves all these centralized institutions. I mean, Satoshi's idea was peer to peer. You know, it was, you know, I sell Bitcoin to you. You sell it to Joel using our, you know, our handheld devices and, you know, without any custodian other than ourselves and certainly without any, uh, exchange or investment bank or brokerage fee firm charging a commission, by the way. Uh, so, yeah, I guess I need to own a ledger or a trazer or something like that. And I can buy one for 50 bucks, a hundred bucks to do it. But I shouldn't have to pay, you know, an an AUM fee to do that. So. So that was his idea, right. And that but that's not where we are now. And the reason we are now is because it's so incredibly convenient to use a stock broker. And for the stock broker to be, uh, a member of a stock exchange where the shares trade. And oh, by the way, notice this carefully. The SEC is very involved in all of that. So part of the Satoshi's vision was decentralised, not just away from the banking industry, but also away from the government. Mm. And, and so some people look at this and they say, you know, this is a Trojan horse. Uh, Chair Gensler has brought us this slew of ETFs, and I'm not sure he really wanted to, but the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals basically said you kind of sort of need to do this.

Maybe part of the Trojan horse, though, to make it seem like you don't really want to do this. We don't really we don't want to do this. Right?

Maybe part of the Trojan horse, though, to make it seem like you don't really want to do this. We don't really we don't want to do this. Right?

Right. But but notice the SEC is going to regulate these products. That's certainly the case. So I mean he wanted the power to regulate crypto assets. Uh, from Congress. They never gave it to him. I mean, I think he claims it was given to him in 1934. But, you know, the reason Congress, uh, kind of sort of disagrees with that. So, um, he didn't hasn't gotten it that way. They've been fighting it out in the courts. And then meanwhile they introduced these products. And there he is, I should say. There they are. The agency is. Regulating? Um, probably. Well, I don't know how big this is going to get, but this is a big financial product that a lot of retail and investors are coming into, and that's all SEC regulated. And that may well be for the, you know, the good that may be the best result I don't know.

Right. But but notice the SEC is going to regulate these products. That's certainly the case. So I mean he wanted the power to regulate crypto assets. Uh, from Congress. They never gave it to him. I mean, I think he claims it was given to him in 1934. But, you know, the reason Congress, uh, kind of sort of disagrees with that. So, um, he didn't hasn't gotten it that way. They've been fighting it out in the courts. And then meanwhile they introduced these products. And there he is, I should say. There they are. The agency is. Regulating? Um, probably. Well, I don't know how big this is going to get, but this is a big financial product that a lot of retail and investors are coming into, and that's all SEC regulated. And that may well be for the, you know, the good that may be the best result I don't know.

So not necessarily regulating crypto per se. They're right. No they're not they're not. Yes. Right. So it's like they're.

So not necessarily regulating crypto per se. They're right. No they're not they're not. Yes. Right. So it's like they're.

Regulating.

Regulating.

Some separation of state right.

Some separation of state right.

That's right. They regulate the share trading and they regulate the, the sponsors who who bring these products. Um, I mean, the exchanges do that too, by the way. I mean, it's not only the SEC, there's some self regulation by the exchanges and there's self regulation by the brokerage community, because the brokers and the investment banks who buy and sell this, they all have supervision. They all have, uh, regulatory responsibilities. So, uh, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it is not what Satoshi had in mind. How's that?

That's right. They regulate the share trading and they regulate the, the sponsors who who bring these products. Um, I mean, the exchanges do that too, by the way. I mean, it's not only the SEC, there's some self regulation by the exchanges and there's self regulation by the brokerage community, because the brokers and the investment banks who buy and sell this, they all have supervision. They all have, uh, regulatory responsibilities. So, uh, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it is not what Satoshi had in mind. How's that?

An ultimately not.

An ultimately not.

Decentralized. It's not decentralized.

Decentralized. It's not decentralized.

We we always encourage people to use exchanges as exchanges and then take your take it off, put it in a ledger or Trezor. This is like one step beyond that. You know, on an exchange, at least you have access to the wallet. But they're custodial here. You're not actually owning Bitcoin. You can't send somebody bitcoin if you're the ETF.

We we always encourage people to use exchanges as exchanges and then take your take it off, put it in a ledger or Trezor. This is like one step beyond that. You know, on an exchange, at least you have access to the wallet. But they're custodial here. You're not actually owning Bitcoin. You can't send somebody bitcoin if you're the ETF.

That's exactly right. You own shares in a trust that holds bitcoin. You do not own bitcoin directly. You have. The economics of Bitcoin ownership for the most part. I mean, Bitcoin doesn't, um. Bitcoin. You know there are no staking fees for Bitcoin. It doesn't pay interest. But if there were any distributions you would not get that. Um, but it doesn't matter because they don't have it anyway. Uh Bitcoin doesn't have it anyway. Um, but uh, but you're right, you have claim against the trust. You do not own bitcoin. And oh by the way you can do it both ways. I mean there's there's no law that says having bought shares in one of these ETFs you cannot buy Bitcoin in the cash market. You certainly can. You can certainly go to the crypto exchanges and become customers there. Yes they're being sued. I'm not going to get into that. But um, they're certainly still very much in business. Um, and uh, you know, one of them is, uh, a custodian for about, you know, 8 or 10 of these products. So they're making money that way, too, and nothing wrong with that. But that, that, that, um, uh, you can own you can own Bitcoin in several different ways. This is an additional option. And by the way, you can also say it's not for me. I don't want it. You know, I uh, I, you know, I, I, I, I think like Warren Buffett I think it's worthless. It has no value, you know, or the chairman of Chase, Jamie Diamond, is worthless. It says no value. Um, and, um, uh, you know, there's there's no mandatory investments in America. You know, you it can be an all cash all day long, if that's what you want.

That's exactly right. You own shares in a trust that holds bitcoin. You do not own bitcoin directly. You have. The economics of Bitcoin ownership for the most part. I mean, Bitcoin doesn't, um. Bitcoin. You know there are no staking fees for Bitcoin. It doesn't pay interest. But if there were any distributions you would not get that. Um, but it doesn't matter because they don't have it anyway. Uh Bitcoin doesn't have it anyway. Um, but uh, but you're right, you have claim against the trust. You do not own bitcoin. And oh by the way you can do it both ways. I mean there's there's no law that says having bought shares in one of these ETFs you cannot buy Bitcoin in the cash market. You certainly can. You can certainly go to the crypto exchanges and become customers there. Yes they're being sued. I'm not going to get into that. But um, they're certainly still very much in business. Um, and uh, you know, one of them is, uh, a custodian for about, you know, 8 or 10 of these products. So they're making money that way, too, and nothing wrong with that. But that, that, that, um, uh, you can own you can own Bitcoin in several different ways. This is an additional option. And by the way, you can also say it's not for me. I don't want it. You know, I uh, I, you know, I, I, I, I think like Warren Buffett I think it's worthless. It has no value, you know, or the chairman of Chase, Jamie Diamond, is worthless. It says no value. Um, and, um, uh, you know, there's there's no mandatory investments in America. You know, you it can be an all cash all day long, if that's what you want.

So this mine, it seems to me it might make more people aware of crypto realizing. Oh, yes, an entry point into it. It's it's finally been validated in the eye of the SEC. So now we're going to be more well, I want to ask this because I was trying to you might've heard me.

So this mine, it seems to me it might make more people aware of crypto realizing. Oh, yes, an entry point into it. It's it's finally been validated in the eye of the SEC. So now we're going to be more well, I want to ask this because I was trying to you might've heard me.

I think you're right about that, Travis. I think it will. It's it's I don't mean to give it a bad connotation, but it's kind of like a gateway drug. You know, if you buy some shares of this, that may lead to other involvement in the crypto in.

I think you're right about that, Travis. I think it will. It's it's I don't mean to give it a bad connotation, but it's kind of like a gateway drug. You know, if you buy some shares of this, that may lead to other involvement in the crypto in.

This coin right here, man, I got some. Yeah.

This coin right here, man, I got some. Yeah.

He's mainlining it.

He's mainlining it.

Mainline. Yes I want to ask about this. So you know I don't know if you know what the numbers are. I was over here frantically typing to try to figure it out. So I know that the global real estate market is maybe somewhere 3 to $400 trillion, right? Stock markets. The numbers that I'm finding is somewhere last year around 100 to $200 trillion. So let's just say for the sake of it all, it's $500 trillion are in those assets. So are they saying 1% of that, which would be 5 trillion should go into Bitcoin. And if that's the case, then Bitcoin is is worth freaking $250,000.

Mainline. Yes I want to ask about this. So you know I don't know if you know what the numbers are. I was over here frantically typing to try to figure it out. So I know that the global real estate market is maybe somewhere 3 to $400 trillion, right? Stock markets. The numbers that I'm finding is somewhere last year around 100 to $200 trillion. So let's just say for the sake of it all, it's $500 trillion are in those assets. So are they saying 1% of that, which would be 5 trillion should go into Bitcoin. And if that's the case, then Bitcoin is is worth freaking $250,000.

There's, there's saying, uh, that 1% of your portfolio. Right.

There's, there's saying, uh, that 1% of your portfolio. Right.

So if everybody's got 1% of their portfolio.

So if everybody's got 1% of their portfolio.

Right, right, right. But but not for all retail investors, for those for whom it's suitable. Okay. Uh, and and that's, you know, and that's not everyone. Um, uh, it's well beyond the accredited investor category, but, you know, it's probably not suitable for everyone. And, uh, you know, 1 to 5% is a is a is a rule of thumb that you're starting to hear. I think 5% is pretty high, but that's but that's just that's just me. Oh, unless, by the way, you're a professional trader or you consider yourself very sophisticated regarding crypto assets, and there are many such people and I have, um. Yeah. So, uh, I think for a novice 1 to 5% and probably on the low end of that makes more sense. But but, uh, but if you're a fan and you follow this carefully. Um, and if you do, by the way, you're probably not just interested in Bitcoin exchange traded funds. You're probably all over the crypto sphere, right? Um, and those are not exchange traded funds yet. You can't even get an Eath ETF yet. Um, but I suspect that'll come soon.

Right, right, right. But but not for all retail investors, for those for whom it's suitable. Okay. Uh, and and that's, you know, and that's not everyone. Um, uh, it's well beyond the accredited investor category, but, you know, it's probably not suitable for everyone. And, uh, you know, 1 to 5% is a is a is a rule of thumb that you're starting to hear. I think 5% is pretty high, but that's but that's just that's just me. Oh, unless, by the way, you're a professional trader or you consider yourself very sophisticated regarding crypto assets, and there are many such people and I have, um. Yeah. So, uh, I think for a novice 1 to 5% and probably on the low end of that makes more sense. But but, uh, but if you're a fan and you follow this carefully. Um, and if you do, by the way, you're probably not just interested in Bitcoin exchange traded funds. You're probably all over the crypto sphere, right? Um, and those are not exchange traded funds yet. You can't even get an Eath ETF yet. Um, but I suspect that'll come soon.

Well, whatever we think of Gary Gensler, fortunately, there are some voices in the SEC that are voices of reason. One of them is a crypto mom, Hester Pierce, former guest on this show. And she has been spot on about, uh, crypto, uh, for the long haul here. And, uh, you've suggested, I think, in some of the writings that she should be the, uh, chair of the SEC, uh, in any administration, but especially in a Republican administration.

Well, whatever we think of Gary Gensler, fortunately, there are some voices in the SEC that are voices of reason. One of them is a crypto mom, Hester Pierce, former guest on this show. And she has been spot on about, uh, crypto, uh, for the long haul here. And, uh, you've suggested, I think, in some of the writings that she should be the, uh, chair of the SEC, uh, in any administration, but especially in a Republican administration.

Well, yeah, I think so. I don't think, um. You know I'm I'm not in Washington insider but I don't think the Biden administration is likely to pick or they like Gary Gensler and and the direction he is going.

Well, yeah, I think so. I don't think, um. You know I'm I'm not in Washington insider but I don't think the Biden administration is likely to pick or they like Gary Gensler and and the direction he is going.

Well, they also like SBF and FDX donate.

Well, they also like SBF and FDX donate.

I didn't say they don't make errors. Jeffrey Epstein and I didn't say they don't make errors. Uh, yeah. You know, I love Commissioner Peirce. I think if she didn't exist, we'd have to invent her. I think no one in government understands the digital assets industry better than she does. No one cares more about the limitations on federal power than she does. And, you know, she's been in that job for six years. She's been right about it from the start. You see this very clearly in her frequent dissents from SEC attempts to expand its jurisdiction by making unsupportable claims that are ultimately fought about in court and rebuffed by the courts. The courts have been. Pushing back against the SEC's claims. Um, you see it most obviously in her dissents to the SEC's decisions to reject Bitcoin ETF applications. Um, including one in which I was involved as counsel to the applicant. Um, but you need to be living under a rock not to see and hear her presence felt across the broad expanse of the SEC's war on crypto that Congress never declared. The SEC declared it. And and not just on crypto. That's what this show is about. But she, uh, you know, the SEC is also undertaking to regulate commerce through climate change disclosure rulemaking, which is what, uh, progressive politicians want to see. But as far beyond the SEC statutory mandate to protect investors, she has been critical of that initiative, too. Like I said, she is very focused on the limitations on federal power. Uh, that the agencies have in the law is a national treasure. And in a in a Republican administration, she ought to be chairman. And, uh, by the way, that's not an endorsement of any particular candidate.

I didn't say they don't make errors. Jeffrey Epstein and I didn't say they don't make errors. Uh, yeah. You know, I love Commissioner Peirce. I think if she didn't exist, we'd have to invent her. I think no one in government understands the digital assets industry better than she does. No one cares more about the limitations on federal power than she does. And, you know, she's been in that job for six years. She's been right about it from the start. You see this very clearly in her frequent dissents from SEC attempts to expand its jurisdiction by making unsupportable claims that are ultimately fought about in court and rebuffed by the courts. The courts have been. Pushing back against the SEC's claims. Um, you see it most obviously in her dissents to the SEC's decisions to reject Bitcoin ETF applications. Um, including one in which I was involved as counsel to the applicant. Um, but you need to be living under a rock not to see and hear her presence felt across the broad expanse of the SEC's war on crypto that Congress never declared. The SEC declared it. And and not just on crypto. That's what this show is about. But she, uh, you know, the SEC is also undertaking to regulate commerce through climate change disclosure rulemaking, which is what, uh, progressive politicians want to see. But as far beyond the SEC statutory mandate to protect investors, she has been critical of that initiative, too. Like I said, she is very focused on the limitations on federal power. Uh, that the agencies have in the law is a national treasure. And in a in a Republican administration, she ought to be chairman. And, uh, by the way, that's not an endorsement of any particular candidate.

No, no, that's an endorsement that we're taking.

No, no, that's an endorsement that we're taking.

No, I mean, I it's an endorsement of her. Okay, but I'm not endorsing anyone for president. Okay. Uh, and, uh, and, uh, and, uh, uh, you know, uh, I'm not going there, but it would be one benefit of a change of administration in a libertarian direction. I am a libertarian. I'll say that much. And she is too, so I, uh. Uh, you know, can't say enough good things about her. And we would this industry would be. Hurt if she were not in the job she's doing now. It's got to be tough to be always in the minority on these things. Almost always, almost always. The chairman voted with her this time. But, um. I'm awfully glad that she is continued in that role.

No, I mean, I it's an endorsement of her. Okay, but I'm not endorsing anyone for president. Okay. Uh, and, uh, and, uh, and, uh, uh, you know, uh, I'm not going there, but it would be one benefit of a change of administration in a libertarian direction. I am a libertarian. I'll say that much. And she is too, so I, uh. Uh, you know, can't say enough good things about her. And we would this industry would be. Hurt if she were not in the job she's doing now. It's got to be tough to be always in the minority on these things. Almost always, almost always. The chairman voted with her this time. But, um. I'm awfully glad that she is continued in that role.

I want to ask. I want to ask you something about this, because I did some research on some stuff earlier today, and it was talking about the tokenization of other assets. Right. You start seeing more tokenization of assets. And it was one of the articles that Joel deleted. But I thought it was interesting because there's some cool stuff that's going on with these things. And it's like I've always thought like security traded tokens, right? Like instead of stocks, like more of these things. Seems like they're going to be tokenized over time. And it seems like that this is one of those first steps. The ETF is maybe one of the more official first steps into moving more towards tokenization of more assets.

I want to ask. I want to ask you something about this, because I did some research on some stuff earlier today, and it was talking about the tokenization of other assets. Right. You start seeing more tokenization of assets. And it was one of the articles that Joel deleted. But I thought it was interesting because there's some cool stuff that's going on with these things. And it's like I've always thought like security traded tokens, right? Like instead of stocks, like more of these things. Seems like they're going to be tokenized over time. And it seems like that this is one of those first steps. The ETF is maybe one of the more official first steps into moving more towards tokenization of more assets.

I think that's right. And I think that's what, uh, institutional investors and what the investment banks think as well. Um, they're talking about securities tokens. They're talking about, you know, for example, uh, it's just the digitization of the financial instrument. So, I mean, the classic example, the classic example is, is real estate, you know, putting, you know, buying and selling real estate in digital format, uh, or ownership interest in real estate in digital format, much more liquid than the classic way of doing it all on paper, um, much more economical, much quicker to trade and settle, for example. But you can do this with common stocks too. You can do it with bonds. There have been tokenized bond offerings in Europe. Um, and I expect those to come to America soon. Uh, uh, as well. It's part of. I mean, this is internet money, right? So part of internet money includes tokenized stock and tokenized bonds, um, which the SEC would regulate because those are securities. No one doubts that stocks and bonds are securities. No one fights over that. We fight over crypto assets because many of them look more like commodities and securities to to us. Mhm. But to some of us.

I think that's right. And I think that's what, uh, institutional investors and what the investment banks think as well. Um, they're talking about securities tokens. They're talking about, you know, for example, uh, it's just the digitization of the financial instrument. So, I mean, the classic example, the classic example is, is real estate, you know, putting, you know, buying and selling real estate in digital format, uh, or ownership interest in real estate in digital format, much more liquid than the classic way of doing it all on paper, um, much more economical, much quicker to trade and settle, for example. But you can do this with common stocks too. You can do it with bonds. There have been tokenized bond offerings in Europe. Um, and I expect those to come to America soon. Uh, uh, as well. It's part of. I mean, this is internet money, right? So part of internet money includes tokenized stock and tokenized bonds, um, which the SEC would regulate because those are securities. No one doubts that stocks and bonds are securities. No one fights over that. We fight over crypto assets because many of them look more like commodities and securities to to us. Mhm. But to some of us.

So how far behind.

So how far behind.

It's actually magical internet mining.

It's actually magical internet mining.

So how far behind are we then on uh Ethereum ETFs. Because certainly uh Ethereum is price is held perhaps on the same rumor that it's next.

So how far behind are we then on uh Ethereum ETFs. Because certainly uh Ethereum is price is held perhaps on the same rumor that it's next.

Uh, yes. There's at least one application pending that I think comes due in May. If I'm not wrong. It's not mine. It's not my client. I'd love to do one of these, but I haven't started on one yet, and. And, um. I think it's although the chair Gensler said, look, don't think that approving the Bitcoin fund means we're going to approve anything else. He he did say that, but I think they're going to be driven to do it because the same reasoning that applies to the Bitcoin fund probably applies to to the ETH funds as well. There are futures markets that are regulated by the CFTC and the CME and other exchanges.

Uh, yes. There's at least one application pending that I think comes due in May. If I'm not wrong. It's not mine. It's not my client. I'd love to do one of these, but I haven't started on one yet, and. And, um. I think it's although the chair Gensler said, look, don't think that approving the Bitcoin fund means we're going to approve anything else. He he did say that, but I think they're going to be driven to do it because the same reasoning that applies to the Bitcoin fund probably applies to to the ETH funds as well. There are futures markets that are regulated by the CFTC and the CME and other exchanges.

Well, it's necessarily because, you know, crypto according to Gary, uh, you know, there's all kinds of, uh, criminal enterprises that are funded by. Yeah. And that never happens with, with cash or, you know, other that just that doesn't happen at all. Yeah.

Well, it's necessarily because, you know, crypto according to Gary, uh, you know, there's all kinds of, uh, criminal enterprises that are funded by. Yeah. And that never happens with, with cash or, you know, other that just that doesn't happen at all. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. You know, I mean, I, you know, $100 bills, you know, I don't know how many of them have traces of cocaine, but it's a very high point.

Yeah. Right. You know, I mean, I, you know, $100 bills, you know, I don't know how many of them have traces of cocaine, but it's a very high point.

Oh my God. I saw a statistic on that the other day. And I was like.

Oh my God. I saw a statistic on that the other day. And I was like.

And I, and I take I take that personally because I'm a descendant of Ben Franklin, but uh, but uh, but, uh, uh, look, I don't mean to make light of the criminal use of crypto assets.

And I, and I take I take that personally because I'm a descendant of Ben Franklin, but uh, but uh, but, uh, uh, look, I don't mean to make light of the criminal use of crypto assets.

We'll do that for you. We'll we'll.

We'll do that for you. We'll we'll.

Hear. But but notice this. It's almost always bitcoin. No one uses ether that way. And uh, so if you're concerned about that and and you're right to be somewhat concerned about it. Um it's really. Probably not a big deal for ether. Um, and it is something that Gensler mentioned in his separate statement. He said, you know, these it's these are not this is not like oil. It's not like precious metals or real uses for that. The real use is for Bitcoin. He says, you know, our, our criminal uses, which is an overstatement of, of the I mean, I own Bitcoin and I'm not a criminal so I'm just a hodler, right. So there are plenty of hodlers out there. Uh, who don't do, uh, anything inappropriate with their Bitcoin holdings. Holdings?

Hear. But but notice this. It's almost always bitcoin. No one uses ether that way. And uh, so if you're concerned about that and and you're right to be somewhat concerned about it. Um it's really. Probably not a big deal for ether. Um, and it is something that Gensler mentioned in his separate statement. He said, you know, these it's these are not this is not like oil. It's not like precious metals or real uses for that. The real use is for Bitcoin. He says, you know, our, our criminal uses, which is an overstatement of, of the I mean, I own Bitcoin and I'm not a criminal so I'm just a hodler, right. So there are plenty of hodlers out there. Uh, who don't do, uh, anything inappropriate with their Bitcoin holdings. Holdings?

That's good. I just want to say this. So I asked grok. Joel, I asked grok, I said, what percentage of paper money has traces of cocaine on it, and it says it's been found. Studies have shown that up to 90% of banknotes in circulation in the US have found traces of cocaine. That's a pretty high number. Imagine all these bills passing around tiny amounts of the white stuff. It's like a never ending party for your wallet.

That's good. I just want to say this. So I asked grok. Joel, I asked grok, I said, what percentage of paper money has traces of cocaine on it, and it says it's been found. Studies have shown that up to 90% of banknotes in circulation in the US have found traces of cocaine. That's a pretty high number. Imagine all these bills passing around tiny amounts of the white stuff. It's like a never ending party for your wallet.

Right? So I guess we're supposed to shut down all the banks because they traffic in dollar bills, right?

Right? So I guess we're supposed to shut down all the banks because they traffic in dollar bills, right?

You stick those in a counter, and those little traces of powder gets all over everything, right?

You stick those in a counter, and those little traces of powder gets all over everything, right?

I mean, again, that's making light of a serious subject. There are things you can do with crypto assets you cannot do with money. For example, you can send it very far, very fast to an account that is, if not anonymous, is at least pseudonymous. And now you can be found, though. Um. Uh, I mean, there are several companies that are very, very good at tracking down, uh, uh, the proceeds of, uh, of ransomware. Uh, very, very good at it. The government itself is quite good at it. Uh, so, uh, yeah, the crime is committed, but you may not get away with it. And, uh.

I mean, again, that's making light of a serious subject. There are things you can do with crypto assets you cannot do with money. For example, you can send it very far, very fast to an account that is, if not anonymous, is at least pseudonymous. And now you can be found, though. Um. Uh, I mean, there are several companies that are very, very good at tracking down, uh, uh, the proceeds of, uh, of ransomware. Uh, very, very good at it. The government itself is quite good at it. Uh, so, uh, yeah, the crime is committed, but you may not get away with it. And, uh.

Around this. So you were talking about, you know, potentially an Ethereum ETF. Does that mean that it's quite possible down the road we could be having a Binance ETF. There could be a Solana ETF polka dot ETF.

Around this. So you were talking about, you know, potentially an Ethereum ETF. Does that mean that it's quite possible down the road we could be having a Binance ETF. There could be a Solana ETF polka dot ETF.

I absolutely like yes I think it's quite possible that they if you take the top 20 tokens or so, uh, and you and you omit the stablecoins because, you know, why would you make an ETF out of that then? Um. Then, uh, several of those could be could come. Um, the it helps. It might even be necessary under current law, but it would certainly help if they already traded in a regulated futures market. And I think the only two for that are Bitcoin and ether moment. But there are futures markets that are, uh, you know, away from the regulated agencies, away from the regulators as well. And there are foreign exchanges that that count. Um, so I wouldn't say that's impossible. Uh, there could also be, uh, a fund that holds multiple coins, you know, some kind of diversified portfolio, if you will, of, uh, crypto assets.

I absolutely like yes I think it's quite possible that they if you take the top 20 tokens or so, uh, and you and you omit the stablecoins because, you know, why would you make an ETF out of that then? Um. Then, uh, several of those could be could come. Um, the it helps. It might even be necessary under current law, but it would certainly help if they already traded in a regulated futures market. And I think the only two for that are Bitcoin and ether moment. But there are futures markets that are, uh, you know, away from the regulated agencies, away from the regulators as well. And there are foreign exchanges that that count. Um, so I wouldn't say that's impossible. Uh, there could also be, uh, a fund that holds multiple coins, you know, some kind of diversified portfolio, if you will, of, uh, crypto assets.

Tokens. That's. Yeah.

Tokens. That's. Yeah.

Travel tokens.

Travel tokens.

Why not an NFT f right?

Why not an NFT f right?

So, uh, and I know of at least one out there now, actually. Um, and so I don't think it trades on a major exchange yet, but it certainly trades over-the-counter. Um, so that could come to, um. Uh, the other thing we'll see is just more fund development, private funds, you know, um, uh, I think we'll see more private funds and different kinds of private funds because of, because of this thawing, uh, by the SEC and the fund area. And the SEC actually doesn't regulate private funds very much. Uh, it doesn't have the authority to very much, uh, so that you can be more creative there. Um.

So, uh, and I know of at least one out there now, actually. Um, and so I don't think it trades on a major exchange yet, but it certainly trades over-the-counter. Um, so that could come to, um. Uh, the other thing we'll see is just more fund development, private funds, you know, um, uh, I think we'll see more private funds and different kinds of private funds because of, because of this thawing, uh, by the SEC and the fund area. And the SEC actually doesn't regulate private funds very much. Uh, it doesn't have the authority to very much, uh, so that you can be more creative there. Um.

Well, I think we have a better understanding of what's going on now, Patrick, thanks to you, I want to, uh. Uh, as we wrap up here, ask you to prognosticate just a little bit. I know this is not financial advice. We have the, uh, you know, these ETFs are out there. Now, the Bitcoin halving is upon us in April, right? Uh, so I'm going to ask you a question. We ask many guests and of course not holding you to it, but what do you think are all time high? If you are going to be a guessing man is going to be on this, uh, bull run.

Well, I think we have a better understanding of what's going on now, Patrick, thanks to you, I want to, uh. Uh, as we wrap up here, ask you to prognosticate just a little bit. I know this is not financial advice. We have the, uh, you know, these ETFs are out there. Now, the Bitcoin halving is upon us in April, right? Uh, so I'm going to ask you a question. We ask many guests and of course not holding you to it, but what do you think are all time high? If you are going to be a guessing man is going to be on this, uh, bull run.

On this bull run. Yeah.

On this bull run. Yeah.

24 to 25, 2024 to 2025. What do you think?

24 to 25, 2024 to 2025. What do you think?

I don't have a view on that. I will not be surprised if it tests the all time high and. I don't think about it much because. But I view Bitcoin mainly as insurance rather than an investment. I view it as if prices get very, very high in Bitcoin. That means something terrible has happened. Probably that means that what's very.

I don't have a view on that. I will not be surprised if it tests the all time high and. I don't think about it much because. But I view Bitcoin mainly as insurance rather than an investment. I view it as if prices get very, very high in Bitcoin. That means something terrible has happened. Probably that means that what's very.

Very high, I mean.

Very high, I mean.

Well, you know, it's. $200,000 or more. You know, $1 million, if that. If that happens. That means we have fiscal and monetary chaos in the United States. In my view, that's what it means. And I don't want that to happen. Right. Because I have a lot of dollars denominated investments.

Well, you know, it's. $200,000 or more. You know, $1 million, if that. If that happens. That means we have fiscal and monetary chaos in the United States. In my view, that's what it means. And I don't want that to happen. Right. Because I have a lot of dollars denominated investments.

Yeah, I was I was watching a guy. He was talking about the the overall price of Bitcoin. He was like, dude, you know, if you're talking about the total value of gold, you know, it's trillions five, seven, ten. I don't know what the number was because Bitcoin's like at the time Bitcoin was worth half half a trillion. He was like this could go easily to 3 to 5 trillion. I mean if you start getting the right mechanisms in it, that's true.

Yeah, I was I was watching a guy. He was talking about the the overall price of Bitcoin. He was like, dude, you know, if you're talking about the total value of gold, you know, it's trillions five, seven, ten. I don't know what the number was because Bitcoin's like at the time Bitcoin was worth half half a trillion. He was like this could go easily to 3 to 5 trillion. I mean if you start getting the right mechanisms in it, that's true.

I think that's right. I think that's like around 200,000. That's what happened with exchange traded funds generally I, I, I was on teams that invented some of the earlier exchange traded funds. And at the time everyone said these are ridiculous. They're never going to get any traction against mutual funds. Why would anyone buy an exchange rate? But now everyone owns exchange traded funds. And that was only 1520 years ago. So yes, 3 trillion wouldn't surprise me in the least. We were at 3 trillion, uh, before Sam happened. Okay. Uh, we were at 3 trillion, so that wouldn't surprise me. Um, but if it goes up by several magnitudes, that's because of fiscal irresponsibility and because the United States has become a banana republic. And I don't want that to happen.

I think that's right. I think that's like around 200,000. That's what happened with exchange traded funds generally I, I, I was on teams that invented some of the earlier exchange traded funds. And at the time everyone said these are ridiculous. They're never going to get any traction against mutual funds. Why would anyone buy an exchange rate? But now everyone owns exchange traded funds. And that was only 1520 years ago. So yes, 3 trillion wouldn't surprise me in the least. We were at 3 trillion, uh, before Sam happened. Okay. Uh, we were at 3 trillion, so that wouldn't surprise me. Um, but if it goes up by several magnitudes, that's because of fiscal irresponsibility and because the United States has become a banana republic. And I don't want that to happen.

Well, we've certainly seen signs of it. Uh, yes. And I think that's, uh, cause for concern for everybody. I do want to ask you this. You were with the SEC during the Reagan Bush. Did you have any interactions with President Reagan?

Well, we've certainly seen signs of it. Uh, yes. And I think that's, uh, cause for concern for everybody. I do want to ask you this. You were with the SEC during the Reagan Bush. Did you have any interactions with President Reagan?

One time as he was leaving office. Uh huh. Uh, I remember it vividly. I was just in an audience, and we waved back and forth, and I saw him, and I was never in the white House. And, you know, I wish I'd had that opportunity, but I viewed myself as. You know, I was a young lawyer in an important regulatory agency, but I worked directly for a man who was appointed by President Reagan. But I wasn't appointed by him myself.

One time as he was leaving office. Uh huh. Uh, I remember it vividly. I was just in an audience, and we waved back and forth, and I saw him, and I was never in the white House. And, you know, I wish I'd had that opportunity, but I viewed myself as. You know, I was a young lawyer in an important regulatory agency, but I worked directly for a man who was appointed by President Reagan. But I wasn't appointed by him myself.

One degree of separation.

One degree of separation.

One degree of several. But I had just in. Immense respect for him, and, uh. And, uh, I miss him.

One degree of several. But I had just in. Immense respect for him, and, uh. And, uh, I miss him.

Where, uh uh, where should people stalk you? What website or social?

Where, uh uh, where should people stalk you? What website or social?

Oh. Oh, well, on Twitter, uh, or X, I'm at Doherty lawyer. That's a at d a u g h e r t y lawyer. Uh, but I'm also on LinkedIn. I'm the Patrick Doherty in Chicago. If you go to Patrick Doherty in Chicago and maybe you type in Cornell, something like that, because I teach at Cornell Law School. Uh, I post a lot of material there, actually.

Oh. Oh, well, on Twitter, uh, or X, I'm at Doherty lawyer. That's a at d a u g h e r t y lawyer. Uh, but I'm also on LinkedIn. I'm the Patrick Doherty in Chicago. If you go to Patrick Doherty in Chicago and maybe you type in Cornell, something like that, because I teach at Cornell Law School. Uh, I post a lot of material there, actually.

Excellent. Well, we will, uh, we'll definitely link to that. We appreciate you coming on and sharing with us today. It's been a very enlightening.

Excellent. Well, we will, uh, we'll definitely link to that. We appreciate you coming on and sharing with us today. It's been a very enlightening.

Thanks for having me, guys. This is an important development. And, uh, so, um, you know, I'm happy to spend the time with you.

Thanks for having me, guys. This is an important development. And, uh, so, um, you know, I'm happy to spend the time with you.

Thank you so much to Patrick Doherty. And you can follow him on the Twitter x at Doherty Lawyer. Make sure to connect with him. Really smart dude, doing some interesting things and teaching the youngins over there at Cornell Law School all about the digital assets. And we saw, you know, Bitcoin and the whole crypto market has gone down. It's like $1.6 trillion right now, up from down from 1.8 something. So, you know, it looks like that ETF was actually something where oh sell the news. And um, but uh that's the way it goes. The having is coming up folks. We're going to be seeing that in early May. So a lot of great stuff happening. And it's just calm before the storm. Kind of seems to me.

Thank you so much to Patrick Doherty. And you can follow him on the Twitter x at Doherty Lawyer. Make sure to connect with him. Really smart dude, doing some interesting things and teaching the youngins over there at Cornell Law School all about the digital assets. And we saw, you know, Bitcoin and the whole crypto market has gone down. It's like $1.6 trillion right now, up from down from 1.8 something. So, you know, it looks like that ETF was actually something where oh sell the news. And um, but uh that's the way it goes. The having is coming up folks. We're going to be seeing that in early May. So a lot of great stuff happening. And it's just calm before the storm. Kind of seems to me.

You have to be in the know as the having approaches. And uh, for those of you watching the video version of the show, you'll be able to follow along with the visuals here. The crypto bull dragons are gone here they all are. Uh, and each one is a one of one that has an owner. Might be bulls Aldrin. It might be the bull market baron. It could be opulent onyx. They are all in the diamond hands of 24 people. And, uh, each one of you is going to receive an airdrop of this NFT.

You have to be in the know as the having approaches. And uh, for those of you watching the video version of the show, you'll be able to follow along with the visuals here. The crypto bull dragons are gone here they all are. Uh, and each one is a one of one that has an owner. Might be bulls Aldrin. It might be the bull market baron. It could be opulent onyx. They are all in the diamond hands of 24 people. And, uh, each one of you is going to receive an airdrop of this NFT.

Prospero Draconis, this is.

Prospero Draconis, this is.

What is this guy? Look at him. He's just golden bitcoins everywhere.

What is this guy? Look at him. He's just golden bitcoins everywhere.

So the whole thought of this is, you know, let's create some fun amulet stuff of power for this next bull run. Right. This is the year of the Dragon. It's the crypto bull run is up here for the next 18 months or so in theory. And so hopefully, if you possess this, then, uh, the the crypto gods will shine down upon thee.

So the whole thought of this is, you know, let's create some fun amulet stuff of power for this next bull run. Right. This is the year of the Dragon. It's the crypto bull run is up here for the next 18 months or so in theory. And so hopefully, if you possess this, then, uh, the the crypto gods will shine down upon thee.

So along with this NFT that we're going to drop to the 24 holders, uh, when you click on your NFT, if you are a holder, you'll see a place in there, uh, which I can't from this account because this is the master account. If you hold it, then you will be able to see a link that says Bonus content. And that bonus content is only viewable through Bad Crypto Dot uncut network. That's going to give you a link to the zoom. When are we doing the zoom? It's going to happen at Travis came up with this and it makes perfect sense. Since it's 2024, it's going to happen on two for 2024. February 4th, 2024. That is a Sunday. What time? 2 to 4 p.m. Eastern Standard Time makes perfect sense, except that I'm Atlantic Standard Time and it's 3 to 5 for me. Uh, and Travis.

So along with this NFT that we're going to drop to the 24 holders, uh, when you click on your NFT, if you are a holder, you'll see a place in there, uh, which I can't from this account because this is the master account. If you hold it, then you will be able to see a link that says Bonus content. And that bonus content is only viewable through Bad Crypto Dot uncut network. That's going to give you a link to the zoom. When are we doing the zoom? It's going to happen at Travis came up with this and it makes perfect sense. Since it's 2024, it's going to happen on two for 2024. February 4th, 2024. That is a Sunday. What time? 2 to 4 p.m. Eastern Standard Time makes perfect sense, except that I'm Atlantic Standard Time and it's 3 to 5 for me. Uh, and Travis.

Is it's 1 to.

Is it's 1 to.

3 for 1 to 3, but it makes for a great copy. So on February 4th, two for 2024, from 2 to 4 eastern, a link to the private zoom where you'll be able to join us. And we're going to talk about all kinds of stuff. It's going to be very spontaneous. We'll answer your questions, we'll drop some knowledge and, uh, we'll maybe give some advice, not financial. Um, it's going to be a good time. So I want to be there. It's going to be great.

3 for 1 to 3, but it makes for a great copy. So on February 4th, two for 2024, from 2 to 4 eastern, a link to the private zoom where you'll be able to join us. And we're going to talk about all kinds of stuff. It's going to be very spontaneous. We'll answer your questions, we'll drop some knowledge and, uh, we'll maybe give some advice, not financial. Um, it's going to be a good time. So I want to be there. It's going to be great.

We're going to talk about Bitcoin ETFs and the implications for decentralization. You guys.

We're going to talk about Bitcoin ETFs and the implications for decentralization. You guys.

Know. And so this should be encouragement for all of you. All that don't yet have the bad crypto Nifty Club NFT that gets you entry into this whole world of free airdrops. And a bonus stuff that we're releasing. You go to bad crypto dot uncut dot network, and the last NFT on there is the first one we created. It is the spinny bad Crypto Nifty Club card. Um, you can pay for it with a credit card if you don't want to, you know, pay Ethereum or use gas. And right now it is $4.43. It's pegged to, I think, 0.002 ETH. And once you have this in your wallet, it's yours. You'll start getting airdrops as we create cool stuff and your world will open to new bad opportunities.

Know. And so this should be encouragement for all of you. All that don't yet have the bad crypto Nifty Club NFT that gets you entry into this whole world of free airdrops. And a bonus stuff that we're releasing. You go to bad crypto dot uncut dot network, and the last NFT on there is the first one we created. It is the spinny bad Crypto Nifty Club card. Um, you can pay for it with a credit card if you don't want to, you know, pay Ethereum or use gas. And right now it is $4.43. It's pegged to, I think, 0.002 ETH. And once you have this in your wallet, it's yours. You'll start getting airdrops as we create cool stuff and your world will open to new bad opportunities.

There you go, there you go. And we're grateful for you guys for tuning in to the show. Uh, we're extra grateful for the 24 that want to be a part of the little mastermind group. All the rest of you guys do. Not nearly as cool, but that's okay. You can become cooler. Uh, because all you really need to do is to. What is it? What do they need to do.

There you go, there you go. And we're grateful for you guys for tuning in to the show. Uh, we're extra grateful for the 24 that want to be a part of the little mastermind group. All the rest of you guys do. Not nearly as cool, but that's okay. You can become cooler. Uh, because all you really need to do is to. What is it? What do they need to do.

Buy the NFT? Oh, no, not that one. That will make them cooler, though, if they own the bad Crypto Club NFT.

Buy the NFT? Oh, no, not that one. That will make them cooler, though, if they own the bad Crypto Club NFT.

You don't have the NFT. What you can do instead is just stay back.

You don't have the NFT. What you can do instead is just stay back.

Yeah. That's all you got to do. Who's bad. The Bad Crypto Podcast is a production of Bad Crypto LLC. The content of the show, the videos and the website is provided for educational, informational and entertainment purposes only. It's not intended to be and does not constitute financial investment or trading advice of any kind. You shouldn't make any decisions as to finances, investing, trading or anything else based on this information without undertaking independent due diligence and consultation with a professional financial advisor. Please understand that the trading of bitcoins and alternative cryptocurrencies have potential risks involved. Anyone wishing to invest in any of the currencies or tokens mentioned on this podcast should first seek their own independent, professional financial advisor. All you gotta do is to stay bad and buy a NFT. You won't be sad then.

Yeah. That's all you got to do. Who's bad. The Bad Crypto Podcast is a production of Bad Crypto LLC. The content of the show, the videos and the website is provided for educational, informational and entertainment purposes only. It's not intended to be and does not constitute financial investment or trading advice of any kind. You shouldn't make any decisions as to finances, investing, trading or anything else based on this information without undertaking independent due diligence and consultation with a professional financial advisor. Please understand that the trading of bitcoins and alternative cryptocurrencies have potential risks involved. Anyone wishing to invest in any of the currencies or tokens mentioned on this podcast should first seek their own independent, professional financial advisor. All you gotta do is to stay bad and buy a NFT. You won't be sad then.

Wow.

Wow.

Who did that? All I want to do is have some fun. That. What was that.

Who did that? All I want to do is have some fun. That. What was that.

Song? Crow?

Song? Crow?

Sheryl Crow, eat some, eat crow. Sheryl just busted you out there.

Sheryl Crow, eat some, eat crow. Sheryl just busted you out there.

That was by Joel.

That was by Joel.

No, that song would have been a huge hit for us. Why are you stealing our melodies, Sheryl Crow?

No, that song would have been a huge hit for us. Why are you stealing our melodies, Sheryl Crow?

That's not.

That's not.

Nice. Don't do that.

Nice. Don't do that.

For future melodies that we're going to come up with in our heads years down the road.

For future melodies that we're going to come up with in our heads years down the road.

That's right.

That's right.

Come, lend me your ears. Girls and boys. Bout those magic little kernels of joy. Versatile in the kitchen. Every day I'm wishing for that plant that we love so much more than soy. Yes, it's corn syrup or. Boil. Grinder. Pop it. Grilled or boiled? Yes. It's. Need it today. It'll remind you.