Hello, friends, benders and non vendors alike. Welcome to Braving the Elements, Nickelodeon's podcast about all things Avatar Verse. I'm Janet Barney and I'm Dante Bosco Barney. How awesome was our conversation with Jennifer Hell last week? Come shout out to Jen Hell. We're doing a pretty good job at collecting the avatars on our show. That's true. Actually we've had Yeah, we've had Zach who plays Saying, We've had James Garretto plays Roku. We've had Jen who plays Kyoshi. Oh my gosh, Hunter, I happen to also be here coincidentally, and no, but it's true. We're doing We got a pretty good track record for Avatar is not bad, buddy, not bad, I know. And then this week we're diving into pisode sixteen, A book one The Deserter, which is an awesome episode directed by the wonderful Lauren McMullan and written by Tim Hendrick. And here's the thing. I've known Tim for years, okay, because Tim was someone that Mike and Brian trusted to send into some of our coral recordings. So he's really one of the first writers other than Mike and Brian that I really got some kind of q tee with. So we figured, why not do something we have yet to do on this show, which is have the writer of this very episode joint us to do the recap. Please welcome Tim Hedrick. What's up, Tim? You want to recap? You wrong? Wind up to this? Is it weird though, to like look back and recapping a thing almost as if you're on the outside, but like also having been the one who put the words together for the group. Do you remember any of this stuff? Tip? Tim? Do you have any recollection of anything? And this we're talking about right now? Listen. I rewatched this episode and was like, oh, yeah, there was a lot of that. It's been a long time since we did this, so yeah, there's there's much that's brought back to my memories from all this stuff. So I have to say it's a beautifully written episode because we have this character of Jong Cheng who says some very well spoken things, and they had to come from somewhere finally like a fire bender with some positive attributes to what are you doing? We're not all bad guys, Tim in the fire Nation. Look, we're all just people, you know, We're all just people. We're at a little fire Nation festival. See all these normal fire Nations being cute kids, puppets. Are you kidding me? Not? Everybody's out here genocigning other places. We have snacks and masks. We're just having a good time. Snacks and masks. Everybody snacks and masks. Tim. Let's talk about you for a little bit before we jump in to this recap. I mean, for one thing, as I said, you and I met on Cora, So you had already been with the Avatar Verse and been in the Avatar family for many years prior to that, and you continue to be part of the Avatar Verse group of creative They have kicked me out. Yeah, we'll see how this podcast goes. This might be the end. So you worked on Avatar. Where did you come from before Avatar? What kind of stuff had you been doing? I knew all of the writers, Ernie has, John O'Brien, Nick Malice, James Egan. I had done sketch comedy with them, so they were all comedy writers first, and so was I. So I've known those guys through that angle. They had done like thirteen episodes and then they didn't know if they were going to get picked up for more, and when they did, there was some kind of a change over. Some of the people left and they needed someone to come in and pitch some hot new ideas. So yeah, they called me up. James called me and I came in. I think I pitched tan ideas when I first came in, and one of them was this one, the Deserter, which was just like, let's do a pocoach. Now, Tim, the way you're describing it, it does kind of sound like you were pitching more of the like the one off storylines rather than the more serialized arc. Is that fair to say Nickelodeon didn't like the super serialized storytelling in the beginning. It really wanted it to be more kind of one at a time so they can mix them up and when they re ran them, they would rerun them out of order. We touched on that a little bit with with I think Actually John O'Brien he mentioned this out of order nous like the desire with Kids Network, especially to have those perennial episodes that can exist on their own and you can just see what's on, it happens to be on, you stick with it, and yeah, it sounds like they did try to experiment with that, and people would complain when we had our filler episodes, Right yeah, I say, the great divide. Why isn't Zuko they're hunting them down? Why aren't things like moving on? You know? And I was like, what did we learned? But I think did you get a lot out of that? I always like to fill our episodes. We can't even call them filler episodes. I don't digest them that way, so I don't think of them that way. I learned something that's the Avatar is something when you're making a delicious sausage. Yes, please, you're gonna have the rights of the spice. It's not all meats, you know. That's that's how you make a good, great comparison. Please everyone feel free to use that metaphor as much as you want to or need to. Let's get back to Avatar any before we jump in to the recap. Any favorite characters, any favorite episodes, any like things that you remember as being like. I was especially proud of that this in the in season one, I was figuring it out. I didn't really know they had already done a bunch when I came in. I feel like in season two, I got better about knowing what was going on. So my season two stuff, I there are those are the favorite ones that I did when we had to bossing say, like those episodes I thought really good. Were there any ideas that you came up that you pitch that didn't make it into Cannon that you were like it would have been fun to kind of explore that. There was this one, there was Botto that was an idea that I pitched. And also from the Botto episode was the sheer shoe that was another idea that I had pitched. That's big stuff. Did you pick the kind of animals that got mixed with the hybridness of the animals or now I think it was the mole that well, you know what, it wasn't when I pitched it. It was an Australian guy that was the hunter and his name was Ripper. I remember, were you inspired by Boba Fett? Absolutely? Yes, absolutely, every day I'm inspired by Bobba. Well, let's get into this recap. Let's talk about The Deserter again. I think a fantastic episode gets into some pretty deep stuff that that I really love. I know Dante does too. Do you want to take it. Team Avatar heads into a fire Nation village for a festival and are saved from danger by a man named Jay, who eventually leads them to meet a Fire Nation army deserter named Jong Jong. Will John become Angs fire betting teacher. Well Admiral Jaw still on the hunt to capture the Avatar chrack them down to John John's encampment. And how Ang do as a fire betting student and what powers bul Qatar discovered that she hasn't set herself. So a lot of stuff going on here and a lot of kind of big, big picture questions. And you said it, You said, like, let's get into the heart of darkness. Let's do apocalypse now, right, Tim When you pitched it, how do you pitched to uh a Nickelodeon show, Hey, y'all, this is for kids, you know, apocalypse now right? I think that was kind of my role on the show, was pitching inappropriate storylines for kids. This one the cactus juice, that was you, I can't believe your cactus juice guy, This is huge. That is so cool. Time as an illusions, So is death. That was the line in one of my episodes. It's all completely inappropriate for children, but it's not because it turns out that this is a show that every one of all ages loves, and so having some of that more intense cerebral stuff that maybe it's getting in in a deeper way to young people. But also it's okay if it's not. Like some of the best stuff that exists and has longevity is like there's multi levels for people of all maturities to sink their teeth into. As Dante mentioned, we have Qatara who's finding out something very important and wonderful about herself and acts as a really nice juxtaposition the sort of yin and yang of this very fire heavy story and then what her water bending ability brings in terms of healing and stuff. Let's jump in, Dante start us off. What's going on in this In this episode, we are in the Fire Nation? How dare you pause? Pause for applause. The fire Nations be happy? We finally get to the Fire Nation? Tim, Can we finally get to the Fire Nation? Yeah? I mean these guys are going everywhere. Can't we see some good old Fire Nation folk every now and then? I love what you're saying, my friend, but just wanted to make sure you know we are still in the Earth Kingdom and that this is a fire Nation colony. You get absolutely, Let's go up the river and end of the jungle. Yeah. We start on Momo in the foreground, but he flits away, revealing a shadowy figure in the forest behind him, who then also darts away, accompanied by a nice musical flourish from Jeremy Superman. Momo takes us to a guitar and Soccer, who have just found a kiosk. They hope that will give us info about what's going on around here. But Ang is excited by the fire Days festival poster, but Soccer draws their attention to a wanted poster with Ang on it, and so Qatar and Soccer want to avoid the festival and stay safe, but A convinces Quitara, who says they're just Diski's Ang. Soccer is grumpy about the whole thing as he walks away. We have a close up with another water poster. This one is with a man with white hair and two scars on the right side of his face. And yet I don't feel we'll ever see that guy again. So I guess it was just random that we happened to see that poster. Random, that's right. So the gang emerges from the woods that they've been in. They found the village are looking down on it. Ang tells Opa and Momo to kind of wait there, in fact, that they should maybe think about hiding. So we see Apa quote unquote hiding behind a very tiny bush. The gang puts on their disguises. Basically means that Guitara and Soccer pull these kind of black cloaks out and raise the hoods. And then as we pan over to and he's awkwardly pulled his own shirt and capelit over his head just to cover that blue arrow, and Socca has some lovely soccer sarcasm. Oh, it's like you're a whole different person. They they head down. We see another person, also cloak, perhaps the one we saw before, flitting away, looking at them from behind a tree. And then in the village we see this kind of big torch at the center of the square. There's got the little red strings of light attaching to the buildings that it does look very festive, And I was like, I want to go to that festival. It did look fun, didn't it, Jane. It looked like a fire nation. Good time, it looks like a fire nation toime. To me, it absolutely does, you know, I totally own my love of a fire nation as well. The evening sky is full of fireworks, also very cool, and team avatars walking through the street. Everyone's wearing these very cool masks, so they're they're sort of cloak disguises, aren't. Actually they're making them stand out more than if they were wearing masks. So and then they also see this dragon, which really does look just like the amazing dragons that you would see in the Chinese New Year's Parade that I would go to every year in San Francisco in Chinatown. It's really cool. You see a bunch of people running as a team carrying being this long dragon, and team avatars like we need better disguises, and they're so happens to be a vender right next to them selling masks. So Ang ends up with this kind of blue faced, smiley mask with a sort of sun or yellow mane behind it. Guitar has a kind of rosy cheeked face, thank you, thank you, and soccer is like a red and yellow face that looks sort of surprised and distressed, which is great. What's crazy is they first had the masks on opposite, you know, like Soccer has like the bright, happy mask on, and then I felt the other mass was like kind of almost sad or something. And then Ang was wearing that, and then guitar looks at him like, nah, you guys gotta switch mask a mask always exactly the grumpy face. It was not sad face. It You're right, Tim wrote this right, it's a grumpy face. Yes, this is why you need someone with fashion and the crew with you to make sure everyone's got the right drip on, because they've got the wrong stuff on. It's kind of confused people. Your crew are not gonna look right. That's right. She might mistake one for the other, even though there's a huge difference in the right. It would just be confusing for the audience, right exactly. That is actually a really good point, though, you're absolutely right. Like the process of the animators and you know, drawing out the sketches and the storyboards and stuff, it is true that you want to still know who everyone is and sure they'll have their clothes on, but it is like how do you put their face upon their face and just enough of a way that it still works. With what they're saying and stuff. That's a really good point. But also to him like a moment, like that's obviously not a plot moment, but it's a character moment. It's a very interesting thing. It's something that you would, you know, we would as accurate on camera, we would we can improve something like that and be like, oh, that's so interesting, that's funny. I mean, how does that get happen? Happen in animation or you guys just write it in there. It's like, I think it probably in the script. It was that a has a sad face mask, SOAKA has a happy face mask. Guitar switches them and that's just a sentence that's in there, and then a team of experts goes into action and researches, you know, like Chinese opera masks or whatever. That was, like no theater masks or whatever they based that on. I'm sure it was some incredibly details, but even that details a writer to write that and it doesn't have anything to do with the plot point. But you're like, instead of just putting these mass on that automatically fit them, they grabbed the opposite mass It's those little touches. It's a little touch that's like makes it real, or that's almost like a share me the details moment. Alright, So the gang has their masks on. Everybody's got a mask that fits them just right, and Soccer sees a food stand. Of course he's going to snap up some of those flaming fire flakes. No surprise, they are extremely hot. And as Soccer is dealing with this moment where he's totally overwhelmed by the hotness of these fireflakes, we see ang who then is noticing this very cool puppet show. The puppet show was based on this old English pup show, Punching Jut right, which used to be these festivals, and it was all to teach you about what's going on. It was kind of like a newscast, right, which is the way that we play it. Don't worry, loyal citizens, No one can surprise the fire Lord O. Little Lord O's I propaganda exactly. Lordos I overlooks nothing. His propaganda department is we're at works like we need puppet shows everywhere. Please spread the word, the good fire Lord word through the puppet shows. And it also know who's looking out for him. Yeah, it's it sets us up. So nicely for when we see the play in you know, a later season two. I think having that the street performing element that we kind of returned to, but in this larger, more sketched out way. That's so funny. Again, the fire Nations, man, they have a great theater scene there. I mean, there's a lot of good talented artists in our nation, man, a lot of talented a lot of showmen. That's right, that's right. Well, Tim, let's talk more about the Firebender puppet that we see take us in. It's the fire Lord, who, in puppet show scenario, is the hero, and he reassures the faithful citizens that no one can surprise the fire Lord. And there's an earthbender kind of bidding a rock. He's going to hit him on the head, but the fire Lord turns around and blastom with fire, and the kids all cheer, and it's really exciting and fun. That's a nice moment for the kids, but not so nice for our heroes who perhaps you're scared of the fire Lord. And then Ang is drawn by the crowd to a stage where a firebender performs beautiful magical firebending. I've always been afraid of magicians, so this was coming out of my childhood here and and they always ask for volunteers. And I've been called on stage before. I really didn't like it. Hate clowns. Afraid of traumatic birthday party when I was six, But I don't want to go into that too much, but only to say that's where this was coming from. They want to volunteer. Ang wants a volunteer because Ang wants to get as a view of firebanding, because that's what the episodes about, is getting a firebanding teacher. The firebinder says no. He takes Quitara up there, and then Qatara is kind of this princess in distress in this trick where he summons up a dragon and the dragon is going to attack guitar, and it's very frightening to Ang. They really buy into this magic trick by the way. They seem to instantly forget that they're on stage and this is all magic, like they've never seen a magic show before. No. I feel like Soccer could have maybe been like, hey, guys, you know this is just a trick, right, Yeah, they can't kill her on stage in front of everybody. We can give Qatara the benefit of the doubt because it's so traumatic. I mean, speaking of you know, Tim, you and I relate to the not wanting to be pulled up from the audience and and and also a clown not dissimilar when you get attention paid on you by a performer that you're not ready for. That's traumatic in it itself. Sometimes then put on top of that that there's a sense that like there's some sort of reenaction of what happened to her own mother, you know what I mean, Like there is a undertone that's like she does not need to be you know, reminded of this in this like weird public way. So that's fear magger triggering ag yeah, and taking it super seriously. Let's be honest. Ang is reckless, all right, Well he's got a big heart. When he just you all wanted posters, Billy, the kids stop being so dang reckless. Yeah, And they're surrounded by firebenders in a firebender town and he's on a firebender stage with a fire you don't care. He's not a safe place for anybody. He's reckless. The kid's reckless. So he ops up on stage. He blows up the dragon with his air bending, revealing himself to be the avatar to everyone in town and then doesn't, and they'll try to comfetti to the cofetti. Yes, that's fanty. I mean it really does beautiful fetti. Yeah, it's great, it's beautiful. Yeah. The soft chee ang doing is a little soft chee is like a great classic comedy moment too. There's like something It's like Gene Wilder and Young Frank. There's something about it that feels like that great Oh, I see all angry eyes around me about this. Now they've totally drawn attention to themselves and the fire Nations are headed for them. So suddenly the cloak figure cost them come with me. I get you out of here. Which at first I thought this was a guy in the poster, and I'm like, that doesn't look a guy in the poster. Who's this dude looks like a surfer. It's true that we have the intermediary that maybe we don't. It's super confused because like, that's not the dude on the poster. That's how they get you, right, And so they run past him and he obscures them with a smoky firebomb. When the fire soldiers come after they're dashing through the narrow streets of the village, but the soldiers are hot on their trail. Hangs calling Appa with his trusty bison whistle, and the gang's forced to a dead end as a soldiers closed in. Apa appears and the gang escapes as the cloakman thins off the soldiers ends up setting the big torch on fire, in which the villagers love, and the gangs safe. As they fly away further from the village, they learned the guy who's been helping them as a former Fire Nation soldier named Jay. Shout out to voice actor John Kassir. Anyhow, we cut to them at the campfire. As Chay continues his story, he serves a legend, a deserter named Jean. Jean, Yes, he lives in a cave, so the legend goes, Supposedly he's a high ranking Fire Nation soldier and he just couldn't take the madness anymore and left. Ain's excited. All of a sudden, He's like, did he just find his new trainer, his fire bending trainer. It turns out that's exactly what Chay was thinking. So Socca is incensed. Why does everyone keep doing stuff he says they shouldn't do? Suddenly the gang is surrounded by people with spears. Don't move. What if he was the deserter, but it was just that he loved desserts. Deserts available for every one. Then it also be like apocalypse and that with with Marlon Brando. He loved desserts at that time. A good point bringing it all together. I love it. Can we talk about Chay real quick? Because his boy was he Dennis Hopper like, hey, there, you don't know what's going on, dude. We got we're doing the revolution out of here man, Because I'm like, what is this guy doing? I'd like to think of myself as kind of an easy rider man, but this guy, this guy, and then on the way out, they're flying out of I guess what, I'm gonna throw some fire in those fireworks? Why not this guy's he's reckless too. Yeah, but it's it does to your point, sets that big torch on fire that was that we saw in the square in the first place. It's a cool effect. There is a lot of like the Fire Nation townspeople not knowing what's real and what's a trick, which is cool. What I'm like about the Fire Nation people is that the soldiers come and say, well, the crime was way down this year. Actually we had a really free festival, like everyone will you enjoyed themselves there. So that's right. They know how to spin it. They really know how to spin it. That's the time. So now we are with the gang with Chay as they're kind of being led through the night forest by these guys with the spears. A little share me the details moments a very cool little glow in the dark, lizard or gecko in the foreground on a tree, always like those little touches. These guys. Now, these guys no chase So this is not like these aren't people who have just come out of nowhere. They don't know him. They fully know him, and he's a part of this group. But we find out he was specifically told by Jong not to go find the Avatar, so Chay is also in big trouble along with team Avatar. They get to Jong small kind of hut by the riverside, Chay has to go face him, which he is clearly very nervous about. And meanwhile back at the village, the fire soldiers, as you guys pointed out, or trying to explain how they managed to lose the entire group, and they're trying to sort of spin it and also account for what happened to everyone favorite very mean Fire Nation. Admiral Jao is he's still on the hunt. He is going to track down the avatar. In his mind, he is going to chase them up the river and chay their word comes that you know, listen, they are still after us. Troubles on the way, he comes to tell our buddies that they have to leave immediately and that John Jong is not going to teach Ang how to fire bend. In fact, he can tell just by looking at Ang that he hasn't even mastered water bending or earth bending yet, so he's far from ready to learn firebending. And Ang is like not hearing it. He's like, no, I'm stubborn, He's under turned. He is going to go in there. From being so far away from having a firebending teacher, he is now so so close. He feels like, I've got to take this chance. I think this is a scene that's in a lot of kung fu movies where you go find the master and immediately they're like, get out, babid, you can't come here. I'm not going to teach you, and that's the spit at the door and starve for a week before they open up the door and throw a broom at you. And you stay there for a year and learn nothing. And then after that you know kung fu. I'm not sure, but well you miss the montage is a montage, Jim, don't forget about that montage? And then something six that's right. Yeah, Tarantino pays tribute to that in Kill Bill. But we actually get to see some of UMA's training. A lot of them was training, so at least there's that. Yeah, you know, you gotta pay your dues. So angers the hut and a voice says, get out interestingly and immediately addresses him as master master. I need to learn fire bending. A fool sixes own destruction. I'm the avatar. It's my destiny, destiny. What would a boy know of destiny? If a fish lives its whole life in this river, does he know the river's destiny? No, only that it runs on and out of his control. He may follow where it flows, but he cannot see the He cannot imagine the ocean. This guy dropped so much knowledge. Yeah, he's given Uncle Iro and a run for his money in terms of like beautiful kind of bone moah. He's definitely more on points than kurtz Is and Apocalypse Now and he's like I Ro has dropped out of Fire Nation life, Like he's sticking with Zuko just to kind of keep him safe. But he's the kind of the same guy, right, he's the Dragon of the West. He had this big assault on bossing, say he failed, he dropped out, and now he's hiding out because he's a royal family. No one's going to come after him. But he's not really like doing his duty in the war. And he's definitely not really and they even and they do, Yeah, they take him. I mean they're earthbenders, but they're excited to capture that the Dragon of the West. We don't usually think of I Rose a war criminal, but he's definitely done some things. I mean the pendulum swings. Sometimes you gotta get to that zen side, because you did some stuff that was very unzen, dragging to the West. I don't want to talk about it, but I'm sure some things went down that we're all not proud of. Yeah, and that's what's so great about seeing the image of Jong Jong versus Iro where you see where trauma in the fire nation, even from your own deeds, can lead to being more humble, being more zen. I mean, their principles are so much the same, but i Ro is choosing to live with small joys and sort of connect with the things in life that are meaningful that you know, he's chosen to focus on. And then Jong Jong has taken all of the stuff that's happened to him and just let it fester, right, and and it's just eating him up inside. But they almost could be each one could have gone the other's direction, right, Yes, possible spoilers coming up in the future, we'll see, that's right, that's right. Okay. So yeah, so he calls a master, which is like, I love that that. Ang says it's his duty to master the elements, and Jong says, first he asked to master discipline itself, don't we all? He keeps denying ag and Jong Jong is clearly getting angry, but he's totally making sense, and he compares earth and water to fire and talks about how damaging fire is. Obviously he has very mixed feelings about fire bending, really about his own identity as a firebender. He's totally torn about this, and he says, an you're not ready once kicks him out, and then all the candles surrounding him jump high up in the air and it's totally dark and alone candle burns, and then the Jong is kneeling before the candle next to a tree, and Avatar Roku stands before him. You think I am weak of the Truku. No, no, I did not mean that. I have mastered the elements a thousand times and a thousand lifetimes. Now I must do it once again. You will teach the avatar fire banding. Yes, yes, he will teach you. Really, that's great. And the question is he really there? Is this a vision is happening? Tim what had happened? There was a big Roku flex in that moment. Roku came in and flexed on him, however, and and doesn't really realize what's happening. So there's some fire Nation energy here. Since we're back in Roku's hometown right that, he's like bursting out a little bit because by the end of the episode we know it doesn't seem that is going to be where and gets his fire bending right. Well, he does learn some fire bending, though he does fire bend there. So John Jong does teach him that, and I want you to teach him fire bending for one day. Teach him fire bending, but be terrible trash course. Yeah, what happened to Tim was was he there or not? What is? You know? You know what? I do love Tim. At this point, he's in this same way. He's talking about the fire bending as opposed to the water and the earth. He's saying, you have to have discipline because the fire, even without you bend, it continues to eat up and ravage. I never thought of fire bedding in that way, Like you know, they move the water. The water is one thing, earth is one thing. But the fire, once it's lit, it beends on its own and it goes and if you don't have discipline, then it will ravage everything, including you. And that was really That's a great It's just such. It was gat I like that. That was good. That was really good. It's uncomfortable having the writer here, it turns out, because we just want to fawn all over your Particularly this episode, things stood out to me. And I don't know if it's just the fire Nation stuff. I was listening to the firebending, but I was like, oh, the good point. Good point. So what happens the next day? Bosco in your precious fire? Day? So the next day, you guys, John works with no concentrate? Good good, Wait what do I do now? Silence? Talking is not concentrating? You get your friend? Is she talking? Even that oath nose? To concentrate on what he's doing? Hey, but what am I concentrating on? Feel the heat of the sun. It is the greatest source of fire, yet it is in complete balance with nature. So when do I get to make some fire? Concentrate? For his next lesson? The head to the top of a mountain, where Ang must focus on his breath control. We see the breathing and the fire bending stance, and and he learns how to breathe. You brought me up here to breathe assume your stance. No, inhaled through the nose and exhaled through the mouth without talking. Later, Anger turns to the hut. He decides to leave the breathing exercise on his own. Ang is super impatient. I already know how to squat and breathe and feel the sun. I want to know how to shoot fire out of my fingertips. I had a pupil ones who had no interest in learning discipline. He was only concerned with the power of fire, how he could use it to destroy his opponents and wipe out the obstacles in his path. But fire is a horrible burden to bear, As Jung Jung describes the nameless pupil, We're looking back at Joo and as he scans the banks for any son of Ang, you know, you know, now he's kind of reminding of someone else. I don't know what searching for the avatar gets these firebenders, Zuko included, start going crazy. It's a little bit of gall in there, right, yeah, yeah, It's like they're chasing now. Jow was talking all this trash about young Zuko, like what are you doing? And now he's like on that fever. He's on that let's catch the avatar fever. And now they're both fire bending feverishly on ships, which is not a great idea. Whenever for a shadow report, we're gonna see what fire bedding on ships does a little bit on the episode. It's so true though. I think we get a sense of that from the very beginning, when Zuko finds out that hangs a little boy it's like the sort of bossy slash, powerful slash. They use their power to get what they want. People like Jao and also like Zuko at this point in his life. How infuriating that it's this little boy who barely like does anything offensive. It's all defense. He's just getting out of the way, Like you're asking why it makes them crazy. I think that's a big part of it, right, is this sense of like, how dare this tiny imp be able to continually escape? And he's not even this mighty old, big dude who's like throwing all this power back at me and I can't resist it, Like he continues to just play defense. And I think it's that thing where you know you're really mad at someone and someone's like it's good, dude, Like blessings to you, man, I'm not mad at you, and you're like, I'm even more angry now, just like you're saying, the fire continues. If the fire isn't have anywhere to go, it's just gonna burn you up instead. Such a great writing. It's a lot of toxic masculine a modern lens that is very true culture. I am this part, though, I do have to say I really enjoyed this moment where he says, even this oath knows to concentrate in Soccer's like everyone's you know, they're complimenting soccer. He's still getting slaps. He's barely important in this episode. And then it's just like insults from Afar for soccer. I mean, you gotta give up soccer rolls with all the benders. He's like the non bending dude rolling with all the benders, Like what are you gonna do if your homies are superheroes, but you're like the non superpower friend. But he holds his own. So I'm gonna soccer always love him, love him. Okay, so we're back with John John. When he next leaves his hut, we see that Ang is in lotus position, and he's very much taken on this position of humility because he has been very much schooled by Joan Chong about not listening to him. You know, so we think like, oh, maybe Ang is getting the picture. Like he it does need to be deferential, he does need to respect his master. He does need to learn fire bending the right way. And so Jean Jong sets a single leaf kind of a scissling and tells Ang to keep the edges from burning as long as he can, so it's really an exercise and restraint. But also it reminded me of like when you would burn leaves and science, like going outside and being like, oh, look, this is how a magnifying glass works with the sun. So we're getting the fields of these sort of early experiences that we have with fire. Ang has this leaf, he's not supposed to let it reach the edges. That's not exactly the drama, right that Ang was hoping for or when it comes to fire bending. And then when one of Gen John's sort of soldiers tell him there's trouble and they need him and he's got to leave. They leave Ang with Qatara, and you know, we see Ang's frustration again with this leaf. He's just was really great stubborn face as he's trying to do as instructed. We can all relate that halfhearted like yeah, prac from me. It's like I'll practice guitar, Yeah, I'll practice, and just sort of whatever the stubborn version of almost not doing that is. And in fact he's now it becomes clear like in fact he may be trying to do the exact opposite, because suddenly the leaf explodes into flame. Definitely not what he was supposed to let happen, but as excited, right, I mean, he created this little fireball. He's bragg he wants Quatara to know. Of course, he's gonna turn to his friend and crushed Qatara to show off what he's just done. It's a big exciting moment. It just wasn't supposed to happen yet. I can't. I need fire and that's great, but you should take it slow, careful. And he's even kind of like drunk on this power. And we see him do this thing, and by the way, just makes me feel a little better when everyone hates on Cora for being so reckless, I like these moments of Angas because it is a nice reminder that they are one and the same person. I want to see more reckless an I want to see more reckless fire bending. He does some damage when he gets reckless. He creates this huge flame. Guitars like, don't do it, what's happening, and he sends it into the air. It fully burns Qatara's hands. She's screaming. It is a serious, awful moment. It's horrifying, too hot to handle. Literally too hot to handle, literally too hot to handle. A himself realizes what's happened. He's horrified. Soccer is furious, you burned my sister. Come on, and this is on the short, on the heels of Ang and Botch of the Water tribe, and like he just earned their backs. So the fact that he immediately is now burning Katara right after they like took him back into the fold and made them him feel like family, this is not These are a couple of really tough episodes for you burned my sister. I had forgotten how much Soccer yells at Ang in this show Soccer. Well, he's like a younger guy of soccer, so Soccer feels he can, you know, every now and then he needs somebody. He got someone asked, it doesn't matter if you're a superstar, guess what you messed up and yell that little bit. I remember Ang did the same thing with their supplies, like and when he was learning a water bend exactly reminded me when Qatar got hit. I didn't know where hands got burned. I thought it was gonna come back, and she had no eyebrows left. Big shout out to Keni Young who voiced Young Jong. What an awesome job again, just great words with a great voice, great character. What's going on now? Soccer confront saying as Jong Jong returns, he tells him to pack and leave immediately and keeps appologying. But to no avail and Katara isn't terrible pain. Their hands are notice like yeah, squad. When she puts him in the water, they start to glow and when she pulls him out there healed. This is an amazing part. And I have to say that I don't think this I came up with this. I think this is something that they had come up with before the episode, and when we were working on the episode, they were like, this would be a great time to introduce We're not gone, anybody. Just take the credit to him. Take it, you know, you know, I want people. That is the water Bending Hills one. It's not true, but it's cool. It's so and John John is watching and he just is like, oh, your healer. He kind of lets us in on on what this is all about because we don't know, and it's this power that he is really jealous of because he's so torn up about the destructive nature of fire. As we just saw and he says fire bending forces them to walk up Razor's edge between humanity and savagery, which that was heavy. I love that. Nothing like a little Razor's edge in there. The fire Nation river roads appear and they start shooting fireballs and Jong Jong since Gatar running away, and he prepares to defend the kids while they can have time to escape. And then there's an awesome stair down and it's the old the student meets Master moments, and these two are gonna stare each other down and he tells his men that's basically it's not going to be a problem because Jong Jong stopped fighting long ago. He's a coward, he's a loser. He's just calling him out. Jaoo, shame on you. Jo Maybe missus Yoo calls in that I like that name. So guitar goes to finding who's in Joan Jong's hut, desponded, I'm never going to fire a band again. You'll have to event Chili, No, never again. It's okay, I'm healed. What how I'll explain later, but right now we have to get out of here. And his soldiers are attacking Joan Junk tells them they should go and the avatar has immense raw firebanding power, the likes of which he's never seen. This is clearly a dig at his former student Jow, who orders the men to take the deserter. But Joan creates a massive ball of flame around himself and disappears. The men go and try to find him. Jaw and Ang are now facing off. Hurls fire at Ang, who uses airbend to deflect. There's fire everywhere. Ang realizes this is the student that John was talking about, the woman with no self control, and then and gets an idea goading Jaw into yet further reckless firebanding. Playing on his emotions, Hang heads to the river boat and wags his butt at Jow bhoy a Jow who sets all the boats a fire. Some good Ang as a extra behavior here with the strategy, and then Ang tells him he's lost. He looks back in his destruction, realizes but all that just makes him angrier. Angry joins Apa Qatar, Soccer and Moment and they fly off and asked where Joan Jong is and Soccer said he's disappeared. They all did, Yeah, we see Chay not being able to find anyone. We kind of had this moment again with jos we like to call him was seething. And then we're on Apa with the gang and Qatara goes in and heals angs burn with her water, so everybody kind of gets a chance to see what happens. Socca never one to miss an opportunity to feel sorry for himself. It's like, what did you learn how to do that? A guitar says I, I guess I always knew it. Socca's responses, Oh, well, then thanks for all the first aid over the years, like when I fell into the Greaseberry brandb all that time I had two fishuns on my thumb. And the conversation continues as we hear why he had too shooks in his thumb because he trying one to get the other out, and you fight it made sense of the time and oppos flying them into the clouds, and that is the end of the episode. Attention, weary hungry Earth Kingdom travelers. Are you heading to a higher festival but aren't a fan of spicy foods? And make sure you stop for a treat at the Deserter Cafe. We've got everything for your sweet tooth from being curd puffs to Cooeye centered cakes. The Deserter is a one place you'll never want to leave. Get it. You paid tribute to some of the most beloved stories in history with Heart of Darkness, with Apocalypse Now being a modern interpretation of that. This is even more modern than Apocalypse Now. And we talked about this idea of like this responsibility that you have when you have these powers, and the responsibility of being a healer if you have these healing properties as a water bender like Katara has is discovered in herself. And I just love the sort of questions that raises for hopefully all of us about you know, when should we use strength and force? When should we use it in compassion? That all about the balance. If you wanted to have someone watch an episode of Avatar and Book one and say what is this show? Like? What's it all about? Why is everyone love this show so much? I think you could show them this episode and people would be like, Oh, I get it. Like I got some heavy philosophy, You've got some fighting, You've got butt waggling, You've got it, some soft chee puppets, not a lot of Zuko tim not a lot, although it leads me to another question. I want to ask you real quick because you mentioned earlier like people were saying this and that about the show. Of course, now we hear it from Twitter, from Instagram, read it. We we hear all the backlash or the compliments of the things we do instantly. How are we getting it back in those days before they was just the beginning, And I don't think at this point I was around enough for us to be digging into the internet's response. But the chat rooms had just begun chat room, and so there was chat room drawing by going the chat rooms are a flame and chat Yeah, and that is where we actually learned the term shipping, which, as I recall, no one in the writer's room at the time knew what that meant. And we were like, what is this shipping? What are they talking about shipping? At the beginning and yeah, so that's when we first heard of them, and then we're instantly engaged. Yeah, but I don't think we got a lot of It wasn't like you know Twitter now, where you'll just get annihilated by a bunch of people for something. It was more gentle. They were fans. They were talking about the show. You know it wasn't they weren't killing. It's very fascinating to make art and to make shows and to make films in an arrow where there's instant response to what you did. I mean growing up, you know, I grew up in traditional media tour. I mean, I get a bag of fan mill from something you did, from fans that someone from Germany wrote a letter to you two months ago that finally gets to you and cool whatever. Now it's like, oh, don't open your phone. There could be a lot of stuff going on there. You don't want to, or you may want to, or I don't know. It's just a different times. It's scary almost to make art. Well. The other thing that was interesting then, which I guess I haven't done recently, is you're checking the ratings all the time, Like every week a new episode comes out and you're like, oh, what did we get? You know, you're looking on Monday whatever. It was just to like see how the show was doing, you know, And and there was always a question are we gonna get to make more? You know? It wasn't like for ordained that we'd like to get all the way through. Yeah, no, for sure, for sure, we already talked about animals, and we talked about I think we can't. You know, we're not going to top you having this shershoe idea. So let's roll into a most valuable bending moments, most valuable non bending moments. What do you guys think? I mean, there's a lot of bending that happens in this episode. What's popping up for you? Well, I think that you know, Qatar's discovery healing is probably the most important, big deal. You're right, that's a big deal, the reveal of how powerful she is, and she goes on like a huge journey throughout the show discovering all the kinds of water bending, you know, good and evil. Yeah, but I love the poetry that the water could you know, could it could heal? And the fire doesn't necessarily heal. I mean they everything can have destruction, but the fact that water can also heal is you know, fire heels and it's like a pull of muscle. You want to heat it up or you know, there's so much about is not looking at like that, looking at that, he's forgotten how to see it that way. He just didn't traumati. Things that we cook with fire, John, we cook? How about cooking we never really see like any fire nation healers. It does seem like some nice heat massage could really rocks. Hot rocks, they all that stuff exactly. I mean, look, Iro makes a wonderful hot spring for himself in an early episode, and that's very good for you. So he's figured it out. He's in that. I can't get the loincloth that my monic. I get him in a loin cloth out of my mind. Yeah, I I love that, Tim. I think yes to Qatar's healing ability. I think that's fantastic. I think you're right, You're right, right, we all agree on that. What about most valuable non bending? I mean, even though we've talked about all the ways in which Jean Jong is out of balance, and he's only focusing on the negative stuff, which is such a reflection of self loathing. To like, when we know the qualities we have, when we feel like beating ourselves up, we can take everything about ourselves and turn that into faults and turn it into weakness, and turn it into a thing to beat ourselves up with, because we all have qualities that maybe aren't as ideal. But he's just turned his back on all of the positive stuff. That being said, we have talked about all the kind of wisdom that he drops in this episode. That's not bending, that's just stuff that makes you think and reflect. So I think I would vote for the stuff that he says. That's valuable even if he's not in balance. It's his waxing poetic of you know, of the elements and the good and bad of it all. Yeah, I mean we think and look at the banding in a different way. I think a lot of people made them think about it over the years in a different way. He is the title character, he's the deserter, right and so probably the most valuable non bending thing he did was leave. He leaves the fire night. He kind of like that. You don't have to follow orders, you know, you don't have to stay with this negative influence. You can back. Yes, that's why back the rioter. Tim love it, and that's great. Other characters will learn from that in the future. That's a really good point. Can just like the groundwork, Yeah, you can. You don't have to be there. You could have left, you can walk away. Sometimes we don't see the exit. Sometimes we don't see that as a possibility in the situations we're in. Tim now we're in therapy. We're back in therapy again. Guys. A lot of these Fire Nation soldiers are going to say, I was just following orders. But there's another option. You didn't have to be there, exactly the jungle, Yeah, exactly. We do have to ask you a couple of key questions. You already touched on one of them, just mere moments ago, when you happen to mention how you found out about a little thing we like to call shipping. Do you have an is give us some ships, give us some ships, some fields, give us some shipping fills here, Tim, I always enjoyed the romance of Socca and Suki, And just so you know, it's it's nice, you know, because I feel like Soccer. You know, he has a rough time when he starts dating the Moon, but he has a relationship that works out for him too. Yeah you know, yeah, I love that and I love Suki's power. It just works out. You just feel good about it. It's like, yeah, these two there are right, Yeah, no, draw absolutely absolutely. And what about you know the other big question? Yeah, if you can bend, if you were a bender in this world, Tim, what element I think that I would bend water. I think I'm a water bender. The Earth is water, so you've got this mareful advantage right there. You know, water, So it feels more holistic connected wherever you are, You've got you're right, you're not wrong. Plus, it just feels like it's got a more gentle flow, you know, gentle hills. There's hilling attributes to the whole situation. Yeah, just hang out at the beach, you know, it feels like you can be some long distance surfing or something worse things. Don't you find it very interesting that, you know, me and my Fire Nation folk, we tend to be on the water a lot. What are we doing on the water? I mean you can't. It's because it makes you crazy that you can't conquer the water, and you just try to get out there and cover as much territy, like you know what, you know, what's a good idea. Let's surround ourselves with water. Let's just be in the middle of the ocean. That's a great idea. I know it's not. I think that's a sign of a good thing, which is that maybe these the Fire Nation as a sort of unit, there's some recognition. Even with oz I reigning Supreme that it's about being a seeker, and maybe it's about being contracted to the thing that that you're out of, that's out of balance for you could be full on overwhelmed ego delusions of grandeur that we think we can even conquer the ocean. Well, I mean when you think about things in geologic time, right, the surface of the Earth is totally covered with water and then fire thrust these islands out to create the land where the core fire nation comes from. Yeah, they called the Big Bang, they don't call it the Big Splash. I mean like there's a lot of earth came in out there is all earth. There's a lot of water covering the earth, yes, you know, and wind blowing around it. But the core of that earth, Tim was that core that red hot and molten fire in there. I am so happy with this episode from start to finish, especially what just happened. I love this you guys, This has been so so much fun. Thank you so much for joining us today. Is there anything else that you would like people to be aware of follow you? Well, I've been working on a show that's fast and furious. Show that's on Netflix. Faston's your Furious Spy Raisers. A new season. Mary Hope is coming out at some points, so keep an eye after that. I think awesome. An Avatar fan will enjoy it. I think that's right. I'm on Twitter, but I don't say much great, healthy, much like that. Yeah. Yeah, well listen, everybody, thank you so much for joining us this week. You two have lit up my week with your molten coreps. So thank you, thank you, and everybody. We will talk to you next time. Thank you so much. Tim, so much fun hanging out. Next week, we'll be returning to a big picture discussion on key Avatar themes with none other than Avatar super fan and animate expert Cheyenne, who will follow us on social media. I'm at Janet Varney on Twitter, at the j V Club on Instagram. You are at Dante Bosco basically everywhere everywhere except on TikTok at Dante. We'll see everyone alady next Tuesday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcasts. M