School of humans. The holy city of Rishikesh, India buzzes with those seeking spiritual sustenance. Elabrad ashrums full of foreign revelers echo with the holy prayers and songs of sat Soong, led by a Guru or Sadu draped in saffron robes and guiding their devotees with a contemplative voice of authority. Incense infuses the air during Puja, a religious ceremony performed on the gats of the River Ganges. A line of men adorned an intricately designed robe with s gaze out at the holy water, rhythmically chanting while they present their offerings in a circular motion to the Hindu deities they worship. And the sprawl of yoga studios that have burgeoned in succession after Rishikesh was recognized as the birthplace of yoga, thanks him part to the father of transcendental meditation, the Maharishi, whose foresight and wisdom lured the Beatles to Rashakesh, where holiness hangs heavy in the air and the simplicity the Beatles were forced to adopt that the Maharishi's ashrum led to a creative clarity that birthed the White album. It's February third, twenty twelve. Twenty eight year old Jonathan Spalen walks over the narrow, heavily trafficked bridge. He's got pale skin from his Irish lineage, dark hair of that hangs around his shoulders, and a beard evidence of the over two months he's been traveling through India. But unlike the other Western seekers he passes who are carrying yoga mats or in a daze from deep meditation, Jonathan doesn't romanticize the spiritual offerings of Rishikesh. On his last trip to India, he interviewed Pralad Johnny, a wiry monk with wide blue eyes and a vacant gaze. If prala Johnny looks a little out of it, it's because he and his followers claim that he lived without food or water for eighty years. He was called a breathrean monk because he survived on air. Jonathan met with Johnny to write an article about him while the monk was still alive, and though some people assumed that he was a follower, Jonathan was not influenced by Johnny. As a journalist, it was just another job. Jonathan has worked in journalism and Cairo, Abu Dhabi and Hong Kong. In a two thousand and ten article he wrote for The National about Nanog, a Kashmiri village, his curious and empathic prose easily drop readers into the day to day of the Kashmiris, not only giving us a taste of their lives, but an awareness of the peaceful, simplicity of their culture, which Jonathan states in his article, I knew I was idealizing romanticizing life in Nananog, but the real benefits of living there were too great and too many to ignore. As Westerners consumed with our phones, tablets, the overall noise of our culture and the expectations, it's easy to idealize an escape, which is something many parts of India can offer. On this trip, Jonathan's third to India, he's at a crossroads in his life and as contemplating whether to continue journalism or go into documentary film. This question hangs in the air as he prepares for a solo track he's going to make into the dense wooded terrain of the Himalayas outside Rishikesh. His visa is about to run out, so instead of going to Delhi as originally planned, this will be his last hurrah in India. He calls his mom, Linda's balin back in Dublin to tell her about his track. They're close and have been keeping up on his travels through India a text and sporadic calls here and there. When Linda hears of his planned a trek through the Himalayas solo, she asks that he consider going with a guide. Jonathan shrugs off from eternal instinct with a simple answer, I want to do it on my own, kind of a spiritual thing. If you google India syndrome, Jonathan's Wikipedia page is listed under the definition, and part of that is because of this throwaway comment he made to his mom before a solo trek he would never return from. As we've discussed, India syndrome is defined as a psychosis that hits Westerners in India seeking some sort of spiritual enlightenment, and through expert interviews, we've deciphered that India syndrome is a theory, not a medical diagnosis. But it's also a speculation that's plagued Jonathan's disappearance since he was reported missing on February twenty seventh, twenty twelve, I wanted to interview Jonathan's mom, Linda on her thoughts about her son's widely publicized comment about his solo track being a spiritual thing. Was it blown out of context or was her son actually seeking something and the solitude of the Himalayas. Linda and I connected and spoke several times the past few months, and I've heard her thoughts on many things, but I never got an official interview, and therefore will not be sharing our communication and this episode. And this is why, Hey, hello, you sleep deprived as hell. Yeah, it's weird. I don't know. I mean, I mean, I know where this anxiety is coming from. But this is Gabby as Stray, supervising producer. I'm in my voice over booth. She's in her room. We live literally two blocks away from each other, and this is what we do during the pandemic. We meet on zoom in separate homes in the same neighborhood and interview people. But today we're having a different conversation. Hi, here's Akita, our third in the Estray producing trio. I don't know if I've told you this, but I did. I loved you a voice moment, but Linda dropped out again. Jonathan Spalin's story jump started this podcast, a podcast focused on India, a country halfway around the world, which made this past year during COVID pretty tricky, especially while navigating our original plan to investigate Jonathan's disappearance on that solo track through the Himalayas. Yeah, I heard that, and you were thinking of your integrity, doubting it. After the investigation blew up because of pandemic related reasons, Linda backed out, which was tough because she and I had formed a relationship and I had come to value her opinion along with genuinely wanting to help her answer questions surrounding her son's disappearance. Ultimately, I knew how important Linda's voice would be in telling Jonathan's stories, so I re engaged her in the process and had at least two episodes devoted to Jonathan because his story is one that really impacted me. But she backed out again literally two days ago, which just put us in a scramble. We've been working so hard to make her feel comfortable with this process, even sharing the outline with her, and I just feel like she's disappointed in the process. But also, and I think Gabby you might have said this. I think she's also grieving. This is the month where Jonathan went missing. And but I just feel like we've built this relationship and now it's just blown up, and like I've disappointed her, and then it makes me feel like I'm a bad person, Like am I exploiting her son? You know? Like I don't know. I just feel really I feel really torn about it. Obviously I was emotional after she backed out. I questioned myself my motives for doing this podcast, the intimate human stories I'm sharing of these men who have disappeared. When you investigate stories like this, you get pulled in and cases form relationships with the families. And that's tough because our job is to expose information, and sometimes there's conflict in that clarity, because people don't want that information to lead to further speculations when they don't even have clear answers themselves. Throughout this process, I felt like I've been skating this line between entertainment, which you all tune in for, an ethics, which should be at the core of all journalism, especially in true crime investigations. But when Linda dropped out, I questioned all of it, and even writing his episodes really hard. I mean, you're trying to answer to your questions and unfortunately you have to do that by using examples, and Jonathan is an example of it. So you're not doing anything that's unethical because you are putting in the work to answer questions and like make a contribution to our conversations around spirituality. So that's Gabby talking me off a ledge, but it's also a peak behind the curtains blow up. In true crime, you're dealing with loss, be it someone's disappearance or death, and as podcast facilitators, we have to navigate the heavy emotions and grief that surround that, which can either fuel an investigation or put an end to it. This stopped being only about Jonathan a long time ago, but now it's not even like he's the main person around who the entire story revolves. There are many more people now, there are many more families and keep his right. Originally this was supposed to be a single true crime investigation about Jonathan's spawn's disappearance, but after it ended the first time, the investigation morphed into something bigger as we found more stories and felt compelled to examine deeper questions. I wanted to get to the why rather than just unravel the how. Though the how in Jonathan's case is still extremely ambiguous, which for this episode, Linda wants to keep that way, and honestly, we don't know what happened to Jonathan, you know, and she's never taken spirituality or the sort of spiritual question off the table. She's always been like, well, I want to keep everything open. So I guess I'm just trying to be really aware of that, like, as we sort of come into the era of true crime, how can we have bridge of the gap between entertainment and ethics. I'm going through my own existential crisis about how to roll out this episode. I respect Linda wanting to steer clear of assumptions and sensationalism, and honestly, because there's nobody it's not fair to adhere to one speculation. And though Ryan Chambers parents, especially as brother Aaron, have leaned into the larium theory, they've never closed the door on any of the other possibilities surrounding Ryan's disappearance and Jonathan's episode. Instead of deep diving into a story with Linda, which we had planned, to do. I'm going to tell his story with someone Linda respected. Yeah, we had a really nice conversation, and I know I remember her saying that she felt like the story had been misrepresented, you know, other people trying to sensationalize things that they didn't have answers to right, And so I was honored that she was willing to talk to me. This is journalist Jessica Rabbits speaking about a conversation she had with Linda that informed the twenty fourteen CNN article she wrote about Jonathan's disappearance. She didn't pump up the drama or settle in any one speculation, so out of respect for Linda, I think it's only fair to have Rabbits, a journalist who I've also come to appreciate, helped tell Jonathan's story. A colleague heard I was going to India, to rishie Kesh in particular, and she came up and told me about a former colleague of hers and her previous job who had gone missing in rishie Kesh, and that was Jonathan Spalin. In twenty fourteen, It's traveled to Rashikesh for a poignant article she wrote about her own spiritual awakening like Jonathan, she witnessed this spiritual mecca firsthand. But Risha Kesh is not all love and light. There's something dark lurking there too, being in Rishikesh. I mean just it's a spiritual Disneyland, and everyone there is trying to teach and be a guru and gather a following and maybe rip people off financially. Like you know, there's so much that you could fall victim to. This is the more ominous side of Rashakesh when we see all too often in the States the consumerism of spirituality, which can lead to false prophets, scams, and a handful of other frauds used debate trusting seekers. I remember very, you know, kind of stopping in my tracks when I saw the Jonathan Spallen poster, and I think it's because, you know, I had his face on it, and I'd seen his face, you know, in searching for stories about him online, but it was very faded when I saw it. Jonathan had been missing for at least two years at this point. At the top of Jessica's article, there is a picture of Jonathan's missing poster. On the poster are two photos of Jonathan and one his dark brown hair is down, his charming bearded face smiling, his eyes connected to him. Ever is taking the photo. He looks easy going, present, like someone you'd sit down for fifteen minutes with and lose two hours. And the other photo, Jonathan's hair is pulled back, he has the sunglasses on his head, He's not smiling, his eyes are detached. He's somewhere else. David Hammerback, the academic I interviewed in episode two, commented on these missing posters, saying they looked like they belonged on the side of a milk carton. He believes Jonathan was painted as a victim by the media, with the perpetrator of the crime being India. Though I'd agree that Jonathan was not a victim of India at the country, Who's to say Jonathan wasn't a victim of something or some one dangerous while he was there. Though there has been no evidence of Jonathan's body, there was evidence found nearest belongings, evidence that led some authorities to believe that Jonathan didn't disappear by accident but by choice. A broad shouldered Indian police officer walks through dense woods. He speaks directly to a camera following him on a trail of lush greenery, brambles, rocks shutting through the earth. There's a look of concern in his kind eyes as he maps out the spot near Garuchati Waterfall, a hot spot for tourists and Rishikesh, especially during the monsoon when the waterfall flows at seven different levels. This is also the spot where Jonathan's belongings were found. This is Kundaneggi, the lead officer on Jonathan Spalin's case. It's been five years since Jonathan has reported missing on February twenty seventh, two thousand and twelve, which was two and a half weeks after Jonathan's last conversation with his mother, Linda, when he told her he was going on a track through the Himalayas alone and that it was kind of a spiritual thing. A March eleventh of twenty twelve, an American couple discovered Jonathan's belongings in a wooded clearing not far off the main trail where the officer Kundaneggi is now leading a BBC camera crew. The belongings consisted of a bag with Jonathan's passport, phone charger, clothing and some Hong Kong coins still inside. According to a BBC article written by Roland Hughes, a colleague of Jonathan's, and Abu Dhabi, there was also a hospital record and ultrasound scan in the bag, which showed that Jonathan had been suffering from kidney stones at some point during his stay in India. Next to his belongings, a sleeping bag was laid out with a book on top of it. Nothing had been touched. It looked like a site that was set up to come back to, not disappear from. It was also reported that people who had seen Jonathan and the weeks leading up to his disappearance had noticed he'd lost weight and appeared frail. They also said he was walking with a slight limp due to a recent fall on a trail. So if this is the case, he wasn't in the best condition to endure a strenuous solo track. This seems obvious, but what stumped authorities, leading them to question if Jonathan chose to disappear, was evidence found a few days after his belongings a route to the city of Patna. What was found on a narrow trail or bawled up identification cards and papers, including Jonathan's health card and Hong Kong travel pass. According to Hughes's BBC article, these discarded identification items pointed to one conclusion. Jonathan was doing what some foreign seekers do in rashaksh deliberately shedding his possessions and pass life to renounce who he was so he could follow a new, enlightened path. And according to Hughes, the photocopies of articles on spiritual matters found in Jonathan's bag indicate that this was something he was considering. Directly after Jonathan's disappearance, a local newspaper in India said the case was new proof of the phenomenon of individuals, mostly male, disappearing at the religious hotspots of India and around Knoxman Julia Suspension Bridge. The article quoted a senior police officer who ascribed the trend to renunciation fueled by spiritual awakening. So I think that originally I was reached out to just in terms of did you know him? Do you have any idea what might have happened to him? This is Sudvi Bagwati Saraswati or said Viji for short. She's a spiritual leader living in India who fueled by a profound spiritual awakening did renounce her life in California in nineteen ninety six. For one she felt called to in Rishikesh, India, where Jonathan disappeared, Saidviji has the presence of someone touched by a higher power. When she appeared on the zoom with the pristine sounds of nature surrounding her, I could suddenly breathe deeper. So I think they then probably wanted to keep talking to just get some idea of some clarity here. I was another foreign person who had made a decision to renounce, and so they may have thought that I could give some advice in that way. Sadvigi is Hindu, and through renouncing, she exchanged worldly assets for spiritual ones. But was this Jonathan's intention? That's what authorities in Jonathan's family wanted to find out, which is why they reached out to Sadvigi after his disappearance, to get some sense of understanding around someone choosing to renounce their past life in the West for one in India, which, as we've discussed, some of the evidence near Jonathan's belongings points to a little bit later, they ended up finding papers and passport kind of torn up and thrown along pathways somewhere, and when after a lot of searching, they didn't find his body somewhere. Usually, if someone drowns in Gana, either accidentally or on purpose, eventually a body will wash up downstream, not after that long. Genga is also known as the Ganges or Mother Gaya. It's the holy river that runs through rashakesh As. They were not having any luck with any clues suggesting that he would have drowned in the river, and they were getting more clues that either he or someone had thrown his identity papers around. They started thinking that maybe he had wandered off, just wandered off into the Himlaas. Again, this sounds like a Chris McCandless tale, an Eastern into the wild, with someone retreating into the solitude of nature. But there is a romanticism around this idea of renouncing one's life. It's a clean slate, exchanging the noise and societal expectations of the West for the pea and purity of the East, which is something Jonathan apparently idealized when he wrote his article about life in the Kashmiri village nerinag But what a longing for peaceful simplicity make someone renounce their life, leaving their beloved family, friends, pets behind, choosing to vanish. So no one renounces their life. What you renounce is a way that you were formerly identified in your own mind, a way that you thought of yourself certain roles or relationships or ways of living. We renounce sensual pleasures, so we take vows of celibacy. We renounce ownership, so we take vows of simplicity. We dedicate our lives to God. We renounce the idea of a family being just you know, three or four or five members. When we speak about renunciation of the family, what it means is that we recognize that the whole world is our family vasude. This is a Sanskrit phrase in India meaning the entire earth is our family or one family. So renunciation is not this romanticized idea of leaving your past life behind. Choose a simpler one said, VG renounced to be in service of a higher calling and the world. So if Jonathan renounced, he would be of the world, not someone who dropped out of it. Also, there's no doubt that Jonathan was deeply connected to his mother Linda. Their bond was evident not only from the way Linda speaks about her son, but because of his consistent communication with her when he traveled, and this third trip to India was no exception. There are times during his travels where he would drop out for a week or so due to bad cell phone service or to conserve his phone's battery, which is something he warned Linda about on their call before he took off on his solo track. But dropping out of his life entirely seemed out of character for Jonathan. I wasn't able to speak with Jonathan's father, David Greene, but I do know when he was reported missing, David flew to India to assist with the search effort, and according to an Irish Times article written in April twenty twelve, a month after Jonathan disappeared, David was quoted saying, there is some evidence to suggest Jonathan was interested in a spiritual pathway. My trip to India shed a light on him. For me, I have at times thought I was looking at somebody completely different to the son that I knew, to suddenly discover that there may be a whole spiritual aspect to his life, though he hadn't really touched on is astonishing. Linda Spalen and David Greene have not spoken to Jonathan in nine years, which I can imagine for parents who deeply loved their son and fervently searched for him, would be complete anguish. According to Sadvigi, the fact that Jonathan has not reached out to his parents says even further evidence that he did not renounce in the spiritual sense. My Guru made it very clear to me. He said, Ay, I had to take their blessings before I took some nas, but b I also stay in touch with them. Sadvigi is speaking about the communication she had with her family before she renounced and her ongoing relationship with them. When we speak about renouncing the family, it has to do with renouncing those relationships and attachments that thwart us on our spiritual path, those that hold us hostage in a specific identity, in a specific attachment, in a specific role, in favor of the spiritual freedom of living as soul spirit consciousness. That's where the renouncing of family in the vows of segnas come in. But it's not about bringing pain and suffering to those who have given you birth. That wouldn't be a spiritual thing. Mostly, it's important to realize that renounciation is not running away, it's embracing something very very beautiful and very real, very true. It's not a moving away from it's a moving toward. So if Jonathan didn't renounce, like some authorities and media speculated, then what happened to his body? Garachati is one of the most popular tourist spots in rashaksh so it's unusual that while Jonathan's belongings were found, he was not. Kundanegi, the lead officer on Jonathan's case, ends the BBC video shot three years after Jonathan was reported missing, saying I believe that he is alive and I'm still hopeful that we will find him. I mean, who knows. In two thousand and one, seventeen years after his disappearance, when his parents and the Austrian embassy in India had lost all hope of his being alive, an Austrian national reappeared, saying he went missing by choice in India so he could live in complete peace. This case was reported and a twenty eighteen article for the Tribune in India. There was also someone they talked to who said that he was reading Shanta Dam the book, and so they thought, well, maybe that inspired him to kind of disappear off the grid. That book found on top of Jonathan's sleeping bag. It's been reported that it was Shantam. If reading Catcher in the Rye is a write of passage for angsty teens, that's Shantam for foreigners in India looking to reinvent themselves or fall off the grid. Influenced by the life of the author Gregory David Roberts, the two thousand and three book Shantam follows a convict to escapes an Australian prison and flees to the chaos of India, where he chooses to vanish into the slums of Bombay. He becomes absorbed by India, living through many significant experiences that eventually lead him to build an honest life. The title Shantaram has spiritual significance. It means man of God's Peace, which is a name given to the protagonist Len by an Indian woman and a native him and village. Though Jonathan was spotted with Chantaram before he went missing, a book that reveres this idea of falling off the grid, it's yet another speculation, not a fact, which I can only imagine would be hard for Linda when I talked to her. I think she still needed to hold onto hope. I don't know where she's at now. This is Jessica Rabbits again speaking about her conversation with Linda. I remember distinctly her talking about how she loved the idea of, you know, if she could believe that he was sitting in a cave in the Himalayas meditating like that was a beautiful way to think about where he might be. And I, you know, I'm not I'd never had children of my own. I cannot understand the pain that she had been grappling with and and now yet accepting that he might be gone forever was where she needed to be. And I respected that. I mean, I understood that, you know, the not knowing at least allowed her to hold onto a shred of hope. And who's to say that hope is unjustified at this point? When examining what happened to Jonathan Spalen, all possibilities are open, which means every speculation, theory, or synchronicity needs to be considered, including something all three of the missing men, Ryan, Justin, and Jonathan had in common. The first three stories we've covered in this podcast have some things in common. Yes, Jonathan, Justin, and Ryan were all Westerners who disappeared in India, but there are also three men. And you rarely hear stories about men and true crime. These mysteries or murderers usually revolve around women. I brought in true crime expert psychologist Amanda Vickery to talk about this, not only because it's interesting, but she might be able to pinpoint some other commonalities. So if you look at crime statistics, men are much more likely to be the victim of a violent crime. People kind of get this skewed idea of a women are out there getting killed all the time, and also, of course a skewed idea of how likely it is to happen which I fall victim to all the time. I convince I'm going to be killed by a serial killer on a daily basis, when rationally I know the statistics of that happening are very very slim. But yes, men are for sure more likely to be the victim of a violent crime, but not the types of crimes that are covered or focused on and the media as much, not always as sensational, which is what's interesting because the cases you're looking into of men missing in India is very unusual. We don't often get as much coverage of men going missing, as you said, compared to women, it's less likely to happen in a sort of sensational manner. All of the cases we've shared so far on this podcast feature men, and their stories are sensational. But that's not just because of the media's influence. It's because of the mystery surrounding coal cases with nobody, little evidence, and zero answers. My next question to Amanda was about risk taking, a trait that was obvious in justin Alexander Schetler's makeup and possibly in Jonathan's. If you give someone a personality survey, men are much more likely to be risk takers and to be sensation seekers and things like that. And that's something I'm actually investigating in a study I have going on right now. I'm still collecting data on it. I'm curious to see if men and women who are more into sensation seeking and risk taking things like that, are they more interested in true crime podcasts. And that's something I don't know the answer too yet. It's ongoing. I guess I ultimately throw that question back on you, the listener. I'm admittedly not risk over. I mean, I'm doing this podcast, but I also listened to true crime in the same way many women do, not just to unravel the how, but to understand the why. My research showed that women people in general, and women especially are into crime oftentimes because it's almost like a survival factor. They're learning what happens so that they can prevent it from happening to them. And I sometimes wondered the unsolved cases that should make it even more relevant because this person or whatever's happening could still be out there, which is one of the reasons I wanted to investigate Jonathan's disappearance in this podcast. What if Jonathan's not alive and whatever or whomever got to him is still out there. Yeah, he definitely had speculations. Jessica Rabbit's track down Kundanegi, the lead officer on Jonathan's investigation, for an interview in twenty fourteen, two years after Jonathan's disappearance. Nagi was also on Ryan Chambers case, but like I said, the Chambers didn't get a lot of help from the Indian authorities and weren't as supported by Naggie. As Linda Us, Linda will forever be grateful for Naggie's persistence, whatever the outcome. She considers Naggie a man of great integrity and determination in a system which is gravely lacking in resources from a Western perspective. But Naggie, like any police officer immersed in a cold case, does have speculations about what happened to Jonathan. Oh. He wondered if maybe Jonathan Spalen had wandered off with a sadu or a holy man who practiced black magic, for example. I'm going to check in with Ikita about this because it sounds sort of like the Justin Alexander Schetler scenario, and I want to get her thoughts on this whole black magic thing. First of all, there is no scientific basis for anything called black magic, but among people who do believe in it, the general bust up enough. A black magic practitioner would be someone who knows a certain magical or supernatural rituals that can be used to harm someone else. That is the typical perception. You know, Justin went with the sado on this spiritual track. We don't know if this guy practiced quote unquote black magic. But I guess my question is why would a Westerner seek out someone who practices black magic. I guess it would be the lure of mystery and also a journalist mindset of finding out what really lies beneath something that has not been explored enough, or something that claims to me, say, supernatural. But that's just one speculation. Here's Jessica Rabbits with more thoughts from Kundennik. He also speculated that there had been a great month soon in flood in July of twenty thirteen, and that maybe he had died in that. But I know there had been speculation that maybe he'd been eaten by a wild animal because he had wandered into the Himalayas on his own on a trek. So it's hard to know, you know, there are so many options of what could have happened to him up there, and other people there told me that if Jonathan Spalen was wandering up there, you know, a white guy wandering in the Himalayas would have been noticed by others and in the searching, you know, no one had said that they'd seen him, So could he have also drowned? Could he have been eaten by a wild animal. Those were some of the ideas that were being thrown out there. Like I've said before, and out of respect for Linda's wishes, with no evidence of a body, all possibilities are open. So a slew of speculations still abound, and Jonathan's disappearance remains an unsolved mystery. I hope one day Linda Spalen can get answers around her son's disappearance. She deserves that, but I respect her knowing her boundaries, and in solidarity with her wishes, I ask all of you to please keep all the options surrounding Jonathan's disappearance open, like Linda has. To narrow the focus at this point with no real evidence would do Jonathan a disservice. I don't know if Jonathan would have called himself a seeker, but I saw a lot of myself in his story. A curiosity and hunger for an understanding of humanity, a willingness to seek stories and connections outside of his comfort zone, a compulsion to live fully. I'm grateful to have met Linda and gotten to know her because her son's story has helped me reflect on my own. Jonathan's story was highly publicized not only because of who he was or because his disappearance was shrouded in history, but because of where he disappeared. Yes, in India, but more specifically Rishikesh, India, the holy city some consider a spiritual vortex, while others argue that is the Bermuda Triangle of missing people? Is that area? It is not that, not the spiritual Bermuda Triangle. I promise we will uncover the allure of the spiritual mecca that allegedly swallows body's whole and the next episode of Astray. Today's episode of Astray, Jonathan Spalen was produced, written and narrated by Me, Caroline Slaughter and Quita anand is my co producer and Gappie wants as our supervising producer. Special thanks to Jessica Rabbits. Astray was sound produced by Tunewelders, with score and sound designed by Jason Shannon and mixed by Harper Harris. Executive producers are Brian Lavin, Brandon Barr and Elsie Crowley. Thanks for listening. School of Humans

School of humans. The holy city of Rishikesh, India buzzes with those seeking spiritual sustenance. Elabrad ashrums full of foreign revelers echo with the holy prayers and songs of sat Soong, led by a Guru or Sadu draped in saffron robes and guiding their devotees with a contemplative voice of authority. Incense infuses the air during Puja, a religious ceremony performed on the gats of the River Ganges. A line of men adorned an intricately designed robe with s gaze out at the holy water, rhythmically chanting while they present their offerings in a circular motion to the Hindu deities they worship. And the sprawl of yoga studios that have burgeoned in succession after Rishikesh was recognized as the birthplace of yoga, thanks him part to the father of transcendental meditation, the Maharishi, whose foresight and wisdom lured the Beatles to Rashakesh, where holiness hangs heavy in the air and the simplicity the Beatles were forced to adopt that the Maharishi's ashrum led to a creative clarity that birthed the White album. It's February third, twenty twelve. Twenty eight year old Jonathan Spalen walks over the narrow, heavily trafficked bridge. He's got pale skin from his Irish lineage, dark hair of that hangs around his shoulders, and a beard evidence of the over two months he's been traveling through India. But unlike the other Western seekers he passes who are carrying yoga mats or in a daze from deep meditation, Jonathan doesn't romanticize the spiritual offerings of Rishikesh. On his last trip to India, he interviewed Pralad Johnny, a wiry monk with wide blue eyes and a vacant gaze. If prala Johnny looks a little out of it, it's because he and his followers claim that he lived without food or water for eighty years. He was called a breathrean monk because he survived on air. Jonathan met with Johnny to write an article about him while the monk was still alive, and though some people assumed that he was a follower, Jonathan was not influenced by Johnny. As a journalist, it was just another job. Jonathan has worked in journalism and Cairo, Abu Dhabi and Hong Kong. In a two thousand and ten article he wrote for The National about Nanog, a Kashmiri village, his curious and empathic prose easily drop readers into the day to day of the Kashmiris, not only giving us a taste of their lives, but an awareness of the peaceful, simplicity of their culture, which Jonathan states in his article, I knew I was idealizing romanticizing life in Nananog, but the real benefits of living there were too great and too many to ignore. As Westerners consumed with our phones, tablets, the overall noise of our culture and the expectations, it's easy to idealize an escape, which is something many parts of India can offer. On this trip, Jonathan's third to India, he's at a crossroads in his life and as contemplating whether to continue journalism or go into documentary film. This question hangs in the air as he prepares for a solo track he's going to make into the dense wooded terrain of the Himalayas outside Rishikesh. His visa is about to run out, so instead of going to Delhi as originally planned, this will be his last hurrah in India. He calls his mom, Linda's balin back in Dublin to tell her about his track. They're close and have been keeping up on his travels through India a text and sporadic calls here and there. When Linda hears of his planned a trek through the Himalayas solo, she asks that he consider going with a guide. Jonathan shrugs off from eternal instinct with a simple answer, I want to do it on my own, kind of a spiritual thing. If you google India syndrome, Jonathan's Wikipedia page is listed under the definition, and part of that is because of this throwaway comment he made to his mom before a solo trek he would never return from. As we've discussed, India syndrome is defined as a psychosis that hits Westerners in India seeking some sort of spiritual enlightenment, and through expert interviews, we've deciphered that India syndrome is a theory, not a medical diagnosis. But it's also a speculation that's plagued Jonathan's disappearance since he was reported missing on February twenty seventh, twenty twelve, I wanted to interview Jonathan's mom, Linda on her thoughts about her son's widely publicized comment about his solo track being a spiritual thing. Was it blown out of context or was her son actually seeking something and the solitude of the Himalayas. Linda and I connected and spoke several times the past few months, and I've heard her thoughts on many things, but I never got an official interview, and therefore will not be sharing our communication and this episode. And this is why, Hey, hello, you sleep deprived as hell. Yeah, it's weird. I don't know. I mean, I mean, I know where this anxiety is coming from. But this is Gabby as Stray, supervising producer. I'm in my voice over booth. She's in her room. We live literally two blocks away from each other, and this is what we do during the pandemic. We meet on zoom in separate homes in the same neighborhood and interview people. But today we're having a different conversation. Hi, here's Akita, our third in the Estray producing trio. I don't know if I've told you this, but I did. I loved you a voice moment, but Linda dropped out again. Jonathan Spalin's story jump started this podcast, a podcast focused on India, a country halfway around the world, which made this past year during COVID pretty tricky, especially while navigating our original plan to investigate Jonathan's disappearance on that solo track through the Himalayas. Yeah, I heard that, and you were thinking of your integrity, doubting it. After the investigation blew up because of pandemic related reasons, Linda backed out, which was tough because she and I had formed a relationship and I had come to value her opinion along with genuinely wanting to help her answer questions surrounding her son's disappearance. Ultimately, I knew how important Linda's voice would be in telling Jonathan's stories, so I re engaged her in the process and had at least two episodes devoted to Jonathan because his story is one that really impacted me. But she backed out again literally two days ago, which just put us in a scramble. We've been working so hard to make her feel comfortable with this process, even sharing the outline with her, and I just feel like she's disappointed in the process. But also, and I think Gabby you might have said this. I think she's also grieving. This is the month where Jonathan went missing. And but I just feel like we've built this relationship and now it's just blown up, and like I've disappointed her, and then it makes me feel like I'm a bad person, Like am I exploiting her son? You know? Like I don't know. I just feel really I feel really torn about it. Obviously I was emotional after she backed out. I questioned myself my motives for doing this podcast, the intimate human stories I'm sharing of these men who have disappeared. When you investigate stories like this, you get pulled in and cases form relationships with the families. And that's tough because our job is to expose information, and sometimes there's conflict in that clarity, because people don't want that information to lead to further speculations when they don't even have clear answers themselves. Throughout this process, I felt like I've been skating this line between entertainment, which you all tune in for, an ethics, which should be at the core of all journalism, especially in true crime investigations. But when Linda dropped out, I questioned all of it, and even writing his episodes really hard. I mean, you're trying to answer to your questions and unfortunately you have to do that by using examples, and Jonathan is an example of it. So you're not doing anything that's unethical because you are putting in the work to answer questions and like make a contribution to our conversations around spirituality. So that's Gabby talking me off a ledge, but it's also a peak behind the curtains blow up. In true crime, you're dealing with loss, be it someone's disappearance or death, and as podcast facilitators, we have to navigate the heavy emotions and grief that surround that, which can either fuel an investigation or put an end to it. This stopped being only about Jonathan a long time ago, but now it's not even like he's the main person around who the entire story revolves. There are many more people now, there are many more families and keep his right. Originally this was supposed to be a single true crime investigation about Jonathan's spawn's disappearance, but after it ended the first time, the investigation morphed into something bigger as we found more stories and felt compelled to examine deeper questions. I wanted to get to the why rather than just unravel the how. Though the how in Jonathan's case is still extremely ambiguous, which for this episode, Linda wants to keep that way, and honestly, we don't know what happened to Jonathan, you know, and she's never taken spirituality or the sort of spiritual question off the table. She's always been like, well, I want to keep everything open. So I guess I'm just trying to be really aware of that, like, as we sort of come into the era of true crime, how can we have bridge of the gap between entertainment and ethics. I'm going through my own existential crisis about how to roll out this episode. I respect Linda wanting to steer clear of assumptions and sensationalism, and honestly, because there's nobody it's not fair to adhere to one speculation. And though Ryan Chambers parents, especially as brother Aaron, have leaned into the larium theory, they've never closed the door on any of the other possibilities surrounding Ryan's disappearance and Jonathan's episode. Instead of deep diving into a story with Linda, which we had planned, to do. I'm going to tell his story with someone Linda respected. Yeah, we had a really nice conversation, and I know I remember her saying that she felt like the story had been misrepresented, you know, other people trying to sensationalize things that they didn't have answers to right, And so I was honored that she was willing to talk to me. This is journalist Jessica Rabbits speaking about a conversation she had with Linda that informed the twenty fourteen CNN article she wrote about Jonathan's disappearance. She didn't pump up the drama or settle in any one speculation, so out of respect for Linda, I think it's only fair to have Rabbits, a journalist who I've also come to appreciate, helped tell Jonathan's story. A colleague heard I was going to India, to rishie Kesh in particular, and she came up and told me about a former colleague of hers and her previous job who had gone missing in rishie Kesh, and that was Jonathan Spalin. In twenty fourteen, It's traveled to Rashikesh for a poignant article she wrote about her own spiritual awakening like Jonathan, she witnessed this spiritual mecca firsthand. But Risha Kesh is not all love and light. There's something dark lurking there too, being in Rishikesh. I mean just it's a spiritual Disneyland, and everyone there is trying to teach and be a guru and gather a following and maybe rip people off financially. Like you know, there's so much that you could fall victim to. This is the more ominous side of Rashakesh when we see all too often in the States the consumerism of spirituality, which can lead to false prophets, scams, and a handful of other frauds used debate trusting seekers. I remember very, you know, kind of stopping in my tracks when I saw the Jonathan Spallen poster, and I think it's because, you know, I had his face on it, and I'd seen his face, you know, in searching for stories about him online, but it was very faded when I saw it. Jonathan had been missing for at least two years at this point. At the top of Jessica's article, there is a picture of Jonathan's missing poster. On the poster are two photos of Jonathan and one his dark brown hair is down, his charming bearded face smiling, his eyes connected to him. Ever is taking the photo. He looks easy going, present, like someone you'd sit down for fifteen minutes with and lose two hours. And the other photo, Jonathan's hair is pulled back, he has the sunglasses on his head, He's not smiling, his eyes are detached. He's somewhere else. David Hammerback, the academic I interviewed in episode two, commented on these missing posters, saying they looked like they belonged on the side of a milk carton. He believes Jonathan was painted as a victim by the media, with the perpetrator of the crime being India. Though I'd agree that Jonathan was not a victim of India at the country, Who's to say Jonathan wasn't a victim of something or some one dangerous while he was there. Though there has been no evidence of Jonathan's body, there was evidence found nearest belongings, evidence that led some authorities to believe that Jonathan didn't disappear by accident but by choice. A broad shouldered Indian police officer walks through dense woods. He speaks directly to a camera following him on a trail of lush greenery, brambles, rocks shutting through the earth. There's a look of concern in his kind eyes as he maps out the spot near Garuchati Waterfall, a hot spot for tourists and Rishikesh, especially during the monsoon when the waterfall flows at seven different levels. This is also the spot where Jonathan's belongings were found. This is Kundaneggi, the lead officer on Jonathan Spalin's case. It's been five years since Jonathan has reported missing on February twenty seventh, two thousand and twelve, which was two and a half weeks after Jonathan's last conversation with his mother, Linda, when he told her he was going on a track through the Himalayas alone and that it was kind of a spiritual thing. A March eleventh of twenty twelve, an American couple discovered Jonathan's belongings in a wooded clearing not far off the main trail where the officer Kundaneggi is now leading a BBC camera crew. The belongings consisted of a bag with Jonathan's passport, phone charger, clothing and some Hong Kong coins still inside. According to a BBC article written by Roland Hughes, a colleague of Jonathan's, and Abu Dhabi, there was also a hospital record and ultrasound scan in the bag, which showed that Jonathan had been suffering from kidney stones at some point during his stay in India. Next to his belongings, a sleeping bag was laid out with a book on top of it. Nothing had been touched. It looked like a site that was set up to come back to, not disappear from. It was also reported that people who had seen Jonathan and the weeks leading up to his disappearance had noticed he'd lost weight and appeared frail. They also said he was walking with a slight limp due to a recent fall on a trail. So if this is the case, he wasn't in the best condition to endure a strenuous solo track. This seems obvious, but what stumped authorities, leading them to question if Jonathan chose to disappear, was evidence found a few days after his belongings a route to the city of Patna. What was found on a narrow trail or bawled up identification cards and papers, including Jonathan's health card and Hong Kong travel pass. According to Hughes's BBC article, these discarded identification items pointed to one conclusion. Jonathan was doing what some foreign seekers do in rashaksh deliberately shedding his possessions and pass life to renounce who he was so he could follow a new, enlightened path. And according to Hughes, the photocopies of articles on spiritual matters found in Jonathan's bag indicate that this was something he was considering. Directly after Jonathan's disappearance, a local newspaper in India said the case was new proof of the phenomenon of individuals, mostly male, disappearing at the religious hotspots of India and around Knoxman Julia Suspension Bridge. The article quoted a senior police officer who ascribed the trend to renunciation fueled by spiritual awakening. So I think that originally I was reached out to just in terms of did you know him? Do you have any idea what might have happened to him? This is Sudvi Bagwati Saraswati or said Viji for short. She's a spiritual leader living in India who fueled by a profound spiritual awakening did renounce her life in California in nineteen ninety six. For one she felt called to in Rishikesh, India, where Jonathan disappeared, Saidviji has the presence of someone touched by a higher power. When she appeared on the zoom with the pristine sounds of nature surrounding her, I could suddenly breathe deeper. So I think they then probably wanted to keep talking to just get some idea of some clarity here. I was another foreign person who had made a decision to renounce, and so they may have thought that I could give some advice in that way. Sadvigi is Hindu, and through renouncing, she exchanged worldly assets for spiritual ones. But was this Jonathan's intention? That's what authorities in Jonathan's family wanted to find out, which is why they reached out to Sadvigi after his disappearance, to get some sense of understanding around someone choosing to renounce their past life in the West for one in India, which, as we've discussed, some of the evidence near Jonathan's belongings points to a little bit later, they ended up finding papers and passport kind of torn up and thrown along pathways somewhere, and when after a lot of searching, they didn't find his body somewhere. Usually, if someone drowns in Gana, either accidentally or on purpose, eventually a body will wash up downstream, not after that long. Genga is also known as the Ganges or Mother Gaya. It's the holy river that runs through rashakesh As. They were not having any luck with any clues suggesting that he would have drowned in the river, and they were getting more clues that either he or someone had thrown his identity papers around. They started thinking that maybe he had wandered off, just wandered off into the Himlaas. Again, this sounds like a Chris McCandless tale, an Eastern into the wild, with someone retreating into the solitude of nature. But there is a romanticism around this idea of renouncing one's life. It's a clean slate, exchanging the noise and societal expectations of the West for the pea and purity of the East, which is something Jonathan apparently idealized when he wrote his article about life in the Kashmiri village nerinag But what a longing for peaceful simplicity make someone renounce their life, leaving their beloved family, friends, pets behind, choosing to vanish. So no one renounces their life. What you renounce is a way that you were formerly identified in your own mind, a way that you thought of yourself certain roles or relationships or ways of living. We renounce sensual pleasures, so we take vows of celibacy. We renounce ownership, so we take vows of simplicity. We dedicate our lives to God. We renounce the idea of a family being just you know, three or four or five members. When we speak about renunciation of the family, what it means is that we recognize that the whole world is our family vasude. This is a Sanskrit phrase in India meaning the entire earth is our family or one family. So renunciation is not this romanticized idea of leaving your past life behind. Choose a simpler one said, VG renounced to be in service of a higher calling and the world. So if Jonathan renounced, he would be of the world, not someone who dropped out of it. Also, there's no doubt that Jonathan was deeply connected to his mother Linda. Their bond was evident not only from the way Linda speaks about her son, but because of his consistent communication with her when he traveled, and this third trip to India was no exception. There are times during his travels where he would drop out for a week or so due to bad cell phone service or to conserve his phone's battery, which is something he warned Linda about on their call before he took off on his solo track. But dropping out of his life entirely seemed out of character for Jonathan. I wasn't able to speak with Jonathan's father, David Greene, but I do know when he was reported missing, David flew to India to assist with the search effort, and according to an Irish Times article written in April twenty twelve, a month after Jonathan disappeared, David was quoted saying, there is some evidence to suggest Jonathan was interested in a spiritual pathway. My trip to India shed a light on him. For me, I have at times thought I was looking at somebody completely different to the son that I knew, to suddenly discover that there may be a whole spiritual aspect to his life, though he hadn't really touched on is astonishing. Linda Spalen and David Greene have not spoken to Jonathan in nine years, which I can imagine for parents who deeply loved their son and fervently searched for him, would be complete anguish. According to Sadvigi, the fact that Jonathan has not reached out to his parents says even further evidence that he did not renounce in the spiritual sense. My Guru made it very clear to me. He said, Ay, I had to take their blessings before I took some nas, but b I also stay in touch with them. Sadvigi is speaking about the communication she had with her family before she renounced and her ongoing relationship with them. When we speak about renouncing the family, it has to do with renouncing those relationships and attachments that thwart us on our spiritual path, those that hold us hostage in a specific identity, in a specific attachment, in a specific role, in favor of the spiritual freedom of living as soul spirit consciousness. That's where the renouncing of family in the vows of segnas come in. But it's not about bringing pain and suffering to those who have given you birth. That wouldn't be a spiritual thing. Mostly, it's important to realize that renounciation is not running away, it's embracing something very very beautiful and very real, very true. It's not a moving away from it's a moving toward. So if Jonathan didn't renounce, like some authorities and media speculated, then what happened to his body? Garachati is one of the most popular tourist spots in rashaksh so it's unusual that while Jonathan's belongings were found, he was not. Kundanegi, the lead officer on Jonathan's case, ends the BBC video shot three years after Jonathan was reported missing, saying I believe that he is alive and I'm still hopeful that we will find him. I mean, who knows. In two thousand and one, seventeen years after his disappearance, when his parents and the Austrian embassy in India had lost all hope of his being alive, an Austrian national reappeared, saying he went missing by choice in India so he could live in complete peace. This case was reported and a twenty eighteen article for the Tribune in India. There was also someone they talked to who said that he was reading Shanta Dam the book, and so they thought, well, maybe that inspired him to kind of disappear off the grid. That book found on top of Jonathan's sleeping bag. It's been reported that it was Shantam. If reading Catcher in the Rye is a write of passage for angsty teens, that's Shantam for foreigners in India looking to reinvent themselves or fall off the grid. Influenced by the life of the author Gregory David Roberts, the two thousand and three book Shantam follows a convict to escapes an Australian prison and flees to the chaos of India, where he chooses to vanish into the slums of Bombay. He becomes absorbed by India, living through many significant experiences that eventually lead him to build an honest life. The title Shantaram has spiritual significance. It means man of God's Peace, which is a name given to the protagonist Len by an Indian woman and a native him and village. Though Jonathan was spotted with Chantaram before he went missing, a book that reveres this idea of falling off the grid, it's yet another speculation, not a fact, which I can only imagine would be hard for Linda when I talked to her. I think she still needed to hold onto hope. I don't know where she's at now. This is Jessica Rabbits again speaking about her conversation with Linda. I remember distinctly her talking about how she loved the idea of, you know, if she could believe that he was sitting in a cave in the Himalayas meditating like that was a beautiful way to think about where he might be. And I, you know, I'm not I'd never had children of my own. I cannot understand the pain that she had been grappling with and and now yet accepting that he might be gone forever was where she needed to be. And I respected that. I mean, I understood that, you know, the not knowing at least allowed her to hold onto a shred of hope. And who's to say that hope is unjustified at this point? When examining what happened to Jonathan Spalen, all possibilities are open, which means every speculation, theory, or synchronicity needs to be considered, including something all three of the missing men, Ryan, Justin, and Jonathan had in common. The first three stories we've covered in this podcast have some things in common. Yes, Jonathan, Justin, and Ryan were all Westerners who disappeared in India, but there are also three men. And you rarely hear stories about men and true crime. These mysteries or murderers usually revolve around women. I brought in true crime expert psychologist Amanda Vickery to talk about this, not only because it's interesting, but she might be able to pinpoint some other commonalities. So if you look at crime statistics, men are much more likely to be the victim of a violent crime. People kind of get this skewed idea of a women are out there getting killed all the time, and also, of course a skewed idea of how likely it is to happen which I fall victim to all the time. I convince I'm going to be killed by a serial killer on a daily basis, when rationally I know the statistics of that happening are very very slim. But yes, men are for sure more likely to be the victim of a violent crime, but not the types of crimes that are covered or focused on and the media as much, not always as sensational, which is what's interesting because the cases you're looking into of men missing in India is very unusual. We don't often get as much coverage of men going missing, as you said, compared to women, it's less likely to happen in a sort of sensational manner. All of the cases we've shared so far on this podcast feature men, and their stories are sensational. But that's not just because of the media's influence. It's because of the mystery surrounding coal cases with nobody, little evidence, and zero answers. My next question to Amanda was about risk taking, a trait that was obvious in justin Alexander Schetler's makeup and possibly in Jonathan's. If you give someone a personality survey, men are much more likely to be risk takers and to be sensation seekers and things like that. And that's something I'm actually investigating in a study I have going on right now. I'm still collecting data on it. I'm curious to see if men and women who are more into sensation seeking and risk taking things like that, are they more interested in true crime podcasts. And that's something I don't know the answer too yet. It's ongoing. I guess I ultimately throw that question back on you, the listener. I'm admittedly not risk over. I mean, I'm doing this podcast, but I also listened to true crime in the same way many women do, not just to unravel the how, but to understand the why. My research showed that women people in general, and women especially are into crime oftentimes because it's almost like a survival factor. They're learning what happens so that they can prevent it from happening to them. And I sometimes wondered the unsolved cases that should make it even more relevant because this person or whatever's happening could still be out there, which is one of the reasons I wanted to investigate Jonathan's disappearance in this podcast. What if Jonathan's not alive and whatever or whomever got to him is still out there. Yeah, he definitely had speculations. Jessica Rabbit's track down Kundanegi, the lead officer on Jonathan's investigation, for an interview in twenty fourteen, two years after Jonathan's disappearance. Nagi was also on Ryan Chambers case, but like I said, the Chambers didn't get a lot of help from the Indian authorities and weren't as supported by Naggie. As Linda Us, Linda will forever be grateful for Naggie's persistence, whatever the outcome. She considers Naggie a man of great integrity and determination in a system which is gravely lacking in resources from a Western perspective. But Naggie, like any police officer immersed in a cold case, does have speculations about what happened to Jonathan. Oh. He wondered if maybe Jonathan Spalen had wandered off with a sadu or a holy man who practiced black magic, for example. I'm going to check in with Ikita about this because it sounds sort of like the Justin Alexander Schetler scenario, and I want to get her thoughts on this whole black magic thing. First of all, there is no scientific basis for anything called black magic, but among people who do believe in it, the general bust up enough. A black magic practitioner would be someone who knows a certain magical or supernatural rituals that can be used to harm someone else. That is the typical perception. You know, Justin went with the sado on this spiritual track. We don't know if this guy practiced quote unquote black magic. But I guess my question is why would a Westerner seek out someone who practices black magic. I guess it would be the lure of mystery and also a journalist mindset of finding out what really lies beneath something that has not been explored enough, or something that claims to me, say, supernatural. But that's just one speculation. Here's Jessica Rabbits with more thoughts from Kundennik. He also speculated that there had been a great month soon in flood in July of twenty thirteen, and that maybe he had died in that. But I know there had been speculation that maybe he'd been eaten by a wild animal because he had wandered into the Himalayas on his own on a trek. So it's hard to know, you know, there are so many options of what could have happened to him up there, and other people there told me that if Jonathan Spalen was wandering up there, you know, a white guy wandering in the Himalayas would have been noticed by others and in the searching, you know, no one had said that they'd seen him, So could he have also drowned? Could he have been eaten by a wild animal. Those were some of the ideas that were being thrown out there. Like I've said before, and out of respect for Linda's wishes, with no evidence of a body, all possibilities are open. So a slew of speculations still abound, and Jonathan's disappearance remains an unsolved mystery. I hope one day Linda Spalen can get answers around her son's disappearance. She deserves that, but I respect her knowing her boundaries, and in solidarity with her wishes, I ask all of you to please keep all the options surrounding Jonathan's disappearance open, like Linda has. To narrow the focus at this point with no real evidence would do Jonathan a disservice. I don't know if Jonathan would have called himself a seeker, but I saw a lot of myself in his story. A curiosity and hunger for an understanding of humanity, a willingness to seek stories and connections outside of his comfort zone, a compulsion to live fully. I'm grateful to have met Linda and gotten to know her because her son's story has helped me reflect on my own. Jonathan's story was highly publicized not only because of who he was or because his disappearance was shrouded in history, but because of where he disappeared. Yes, in India, but more specifically Rishikesh, India, the holy city some consider a spiritual vortex, while others argue that is the Bermuda Triangle of missing people? Is that area? It is not that, not the spiritual Bermuda Triangle. I promise we will uncover the allure of the spiritual mecca that allegedly swallows body's whole and the next episode of Astray. Today's episode of Astray, Jonathan Spalen was produced, written and narrated by Me, Caroline Slaughter and Quita anand is my co producer and Gappie wants as our supervising producer. Special thanks to Jessica Rabbits. Astray was sound produced by Tunewelders, with score and sound designed by Jason Shannon and mixed by Harper Harris. Executive producers are Brian Lavin, Brandon Barr and Elsie Crowley. Thanks for listening. School of Humans