One tunnel in Gaza was wide enough for a top AMAS official to drive his car back and forth inside Another stretch nearly three football fields long, and was hidden beneath a hospital under the house of a senior Hamas commander. The Israeli military found a spiral staircase leading to a tunnel approximately seven stories deep. More and more information about the tunnel complex under Gaza is coming to light as the Israeli military explorers and documents and ladies journalists to them as time goes by. It's unbelievable and really illustrates why the tunnels were considered a major threat to the Israeli military in Gaza even before the war started. But man, they had no idea and we had no idea to discuss that in the state of the Israeli Hamas conflict. Jeff mccauslin joins us. Jeff is CBS News military consultant. Jeff, it's always a pleasure. How are you, sir?

One tunnel in Gaza was wide enough for a top AMAS official to drive his car back and forth inside Another stretch nearly three football fields long, and was hidden beneath a hospital under the house of a senior Hamas commander. The Israeli military found a spiral staircase leading to a tunnel approximately seven stories deep. More and more information about the tunnel complex under Gaza is coming to light as the Israeli military explorers and documents and ladies journalists to them as time goes by. It's unbelievable and really illustrates why the tunnels were considered a major threat to the Israeli military in Gaza even before the war started. But man, they had no idea and we had no idea to discuss that in the state of the Israeli Hamas conflict. Jeff mccauslin joins us. Jeff is CBS News military consultant. Jeff, it's always a pleasure. How are you, sir?

You won't do it very well. Kind of a frigid morning here, it's about eleven degrees outside.

You won't do it very well. Kind of a frigid morning here, it's about eleven degrees outside.

I don't doubt that. And just as a personal aside, you made a lovely and lovely offer several months ago that if I and my bride could make it to the Gettysburg battlefield, that you'd be happy to do a tour with us. And I have not forgotten that, and I hope I can take you up on that someday.

I don't doubt that. And just as a personal aside, you made a lovely and lovely offer several months ago that if I and my bride could make it to the Gettysburg battlefield, that you'd be happy to do a tour with us. And I have not forgotten that, and I hope I can take you up on that someday.

I would cherish that and pre lunch and a beer to boot. How's that? Oh?

I would cherish that and pre lunch and a beer to boot. How's that? Oh?

Stop it too good? So let's get back to Gaza. I'm sure you've seen the accounts of the tunnel complex. It's mind blowing, isn't it.

Stop it too good? So let's get back to Gaza. I'm sure you've seen the accounts of the tunnel complex. It's mind blowing, isn't it.

It is pretty mind blowing. But you know, I have to challenge that some of you suggested they're at the top. You know, we had no idea. Well, it's really intelligence. I think more and more is being described as pretty at fault in this particular operation, not having obviously situational awareness of the preparation Bijamas to conduct this attack on the seventh of October, because they actually had a copy of the actual plan, but they described it as asked, didn't think Hamas could pull it off, and in fact also should have had more I think situational awareness of what Hamas is doing. I mean, my goodness, it's one hundred and twenty five square mile all surrounded by Israeli territory, and you control the airspace. And furthermore, to some degree, the Israeli took a blind eye to the importation of an awful lot of construction material provided by Katar and others here the Gaza Trip over the years. I think actually because they wanted to use Hamas as sort of a vehicle in which they could describe to people who said, you should negotiate with the Palestinians, how came we negotiate with these people. But while they did all that, they allowed that importation of construction material to enter the Gaza Shrip, a lot of which ended up in those tones right.

It is pretty mind blowing. But you know, I have to challenge that some of you suggested they're at the top. You know, we had no idea. Well, it's really intelligence. I think more and more is being described as pretty at fault in this particular operation, not having obviously situational awareness of the preparation Bijamas to conduct this attack on the seventh of October, because they actually had a copy of the actual plan, but they described it as asked, didn't think Hamas could pull it off, and in fact also should have had more I think situational awareness of what Hamas is doing. I mean, my goodness, it's one hundred and twenty five square mile all surrounded by Israeli territory, and you control the airspace. And furthermore, to some degree, the Israeli took a blind eye to the importation of an awful lot of construction material provided by Katar and others here the Gaza Trip over the years. I think actually because they wanted to use Hamas as sort of a vehicle in which they could describe to people who said, you should negotiate with the Palestinians, how came we negotiate with these people. But while they did all that, they allowed that importation of construction material to enter the Gaza Shrip, a lot of which ended up in those tones right.

It is a public works project, though for lack of a better term, of amazing ambition and complexity. It's estimated currently that the network of tunnels is between three hundred and fifty and four hundred and fifty miles, which is astonishing considering that the territory itself, at its longest point is only twenty five miles long, and a couple of IDF officials assays that they're close to fifty seven hundred separate shafts leading down to the tunnels. Fifty seven hundred.

It is a public works project, though for lack of a better term, of amazing ambition and complexity. It's estimated currently that the network of tunnels is between three hundred and fifty and four hundred and fifty miles, which is astonishing considering that the territory itself, at its longest point is only twenty five miles long, and a couple of IDF officials assays that they're close to fifty seven hundred separate shafts leading down to the tunnels. Fifty seven hundred.

Yeah. Some people have said this is a more extensive tunnel complex than the entire London subway system. And keep in mind, as you say, trying to paint a picture here, because of the strip is about twice the land area size to metropolitan Las Vegas, so it's not that big a place. But this extensive tunnel complex makes for a tremendous military problem in two ways. One, obviously for the israelis to get down those tunnels and try to fight them out and destroy them. Underground, well, you give away all of the military advantages you have of armor, artillery, aircraft, and it's based like fighting under water exactly. Some places you have to use breeding apparatuses, so all those advantages you have above ground go away. Becomes a much more equal fight below grounds, and you're going to take an awful lot of cashers in the Israeli military historically has been historically adverse. And then second of all, it allows Kamas frankly, to re infiltrate. They can fall back as they have from Northern Gaza, the Central Gaza, the southern Gaza. They can use that tunnel complex to basically reinfiltrate behind you and come up behind you. And that's why as you do clearing operations, you literally and I was in Pellujah, rack a city of two or thousand, which we had to go through that against insurgence al Kaida groups. You have to go building the building, room to room, door to door, closet the closet, basement de basement, addic to addic, not only looking for fighters, but looking for weapons explosives that people will leave behind because they know they can re infiltrate, gather up that weapons and attack you from behind. So that makes the whole military operation a lot more complex.

Yeah. Some people have said this is a more extensive tunnel complex than the entire London subway system. And keep in mind, as you say, trying to paint a picture here, because of the strip is about twice the land area size to metropolitan Las Vegas, so it's not that big a place. But this extensive tunnel complex makes for a tremendous military problem in two ways. One, obviously for the israelis to get down those tunnels and try to fight them out and destroy them. Underground, well, you give away all of the military advantages you have of armor, artillery, aircraft, and it's based like fighting under water exactly. Some places you have to use breeding apparatuses, so all those advantages you have above ground go away. Becomes a much more equal fight below grounds, and you're going to take an awful lot of cashers in the Israeli military historically has been historically adverse. And then second of all, it allows Kamas frankly, to re infiltrate. They can fall back as they have from Northern Gaza, the Central Gaza, the southern Gaza. They can use that tunnel complex to basically reinfiltrate behind you and come up behind you. And that's why as you do clearing operations, you literally and I was in Pellujah, rack a city of two or thousand, which we had to go through that against insurgence al Kaida groups. You have to go building the building, room to room, door to door, closet the closet, basement de basement, addic to addic, not only looking for fighters, but looking for weapons explosives that people will leave behind because they know they can re infiltrate, gather up that weapons and attack you from behind. So that makes the whole military operation a lot more complex.

And I know in the New York Times coverage of the recent discoveries rea the tunnels, they mentioned one they quoted one IDF soldier is saying every single tunnel he's seen has been booby trapped. Now the IDF in the Israeli government has said they need to destroy the entire tunnel complex to have any hope at peace going forward. Considering that it could be three hundred and fifty to four hundred and fifty miles of tunnels, some of them seven stories down underground. That is a year's long effort, isn't that wouldn't it have to be?

And I know in the New York Times coverage of the recent discoveries rea the tunnels, they mentioned one they quoted one IDF soldier is saying every single tunnel he's seen has been booby trapped. Now the IDF in the Israeli government has said they need to destroy the entire tunnel complex to have any hope at peace going forward. Considering that it could be three hundred and fifty to four hundred and fifty miles of tunnels, some of them seven stories down underground. That is a year's long effort, isn't that wouldn't it have to be?

Yeah, it's a year's long effort, and you've got to understand that doing so, you may compromise structures above ground. What does that do then to the you know, the structures above ground number one? Number two? What does that do? One of the real concerns about going after those tunnels. Some people are said to flood them, for example with seawater due to the proximity of the coast. But ensuing though, you may compromise the water supply in the Gaza Strip, which obviously been as a tremendous problem with a two point two million Palestinian hitnocent civilians who lived there, and then last not least as the Bass with Jory. Now two million of the two point two million population, two million of them are refugees. They have had to leave their homes. Estimated eighty to eighty five percent of all the structures in the Gaza Strip have been destroyed or damaged and moved south. At the urging of the Israeli military as this invasion began, well you really can't, the Israeli military argue, we really can't allow them to go to their homes, even after we believe we've cleared it of the fighters, because of two problems. One reinfiltration number one and number two. As you point out the ongoing operation to destroy the tunnel complex.

Yeah, it's a year's long effort, and you've got to understand that doing so, you may compromise structures above ground. What does that do then to the you know, the structures above ground number one? Number two? What does that do? One of the real concerns about going after those tunnels. Some people are said to flood them, for example with seawater due to the proximity of the coast. But ensuing though, you may compromise the water supply in the Gaza Strip, which obviously been as a tremendous problem with a two point two million Palestinian hitnocent civilians who lived there, and then last not least as the Bass with Jory. Now two million of the two point two million population, two million of them are refugees. They have had to leave their homes. Estimated eighty to eighty five percent of all the structures in the Gaza Strip have been destroyed or damaged and moved south. At the urging of the Israeli military as this invasion began, well you really can't, the Israeli military argue, we really can't allow them to go to their homes, even after we believe we've cleared it of the fighters, because of two problems. One reinfiltration number one and number two. As you point out the ongoing operation to destroy the tunnel complex.

Boy, this is the future of this is hazy. Indeed, the Israeli military has announced that they're going into the most hazardous phase of this, which is clearing out the tunnels and rooting out the hidden fighters and arms and that sort of thing. So this is so far from over it seems silly to even talk about it being over. Jeff, anything else top of mind about the conflict before we let you go?

Boy, this is the future of this is hazy. Indeed, the Israeli military has announced that they're going into the most hazardous phase of this, which is clearing out the tunnels and rooting out the hidden fighters and arms and that sort of thing. So this is so far from over it seems silly to even talk about it being over. Jeff, anything else top of mind about the conflict before we let you go?

Well, what I'm doing concerned about is still in all the Israelis have not really talked about what do you do the day after, even after you think you've destroyed I think destroying Hamas is a bridge too far, perhaps destroying its military capabilities. And you know, President or I'm sorry, Prime Minister Yahoo just yesterday said, you know, the war will continue until the end, until we achieve our goals returning to hostage elmiting Hamas and insuring Gaza never again constitute the threat to Israel. Well, that may sound reasonable, but as you suggest, that's a monumental task. If you've got to occupy this particular area of two million people, we our rough rule of thumb in Iraq and Afghanistan was five to twenty soldiers per thousand to control the population. So you're talking forty to fifty thousand israel Israeli soldiers in a semi permanent status just to occupy this place long term, and you may end up then if you're the Israelis looking at the Third Intifada or not. Unlike the British army which occupied northern Ireland in nineteen sixty eight and they were there until nineteen ninety three, and I lived in England during some of the ira bombings. I remember a scene of Greece often when I asked him, what are you guys accomplishing? His only reply was, we have achieved an acceptable level of violence that we're no longer including only closer to a long term solution than we were in nineteen sixty eight.

Well, what I'm doing concerned about is still in all the Israelis have not really talked about what do you do the day after, even after you think you've destroyed I think destroying Hamas is a bridge too far, perhaps destroying its military capabilities. And you know, President or I'm sorry, Prime Minister Yahoo just yesterday said, you know, the war will continue until the end, until we achieve our goals returning to hostage elmiting Hamas and insuring Gaza never again constitute the threat to Israel. Well, that may sound reasonable, but as you suggest, that's a monumental task. If you've got to occupy this particular area of two million people, we our rough rule of thumb in Iraq and Afghanistan was five to twenty soldiers per thousand to control the population. So you're talking forty to fifty thousand israel Israeli soldiers in a semi permanent status just to occupy this place long term, and you may end up then if you're the Israelis looking at the Third Intifada or not. Unlike the British army which occupied northern Ireland in nineteen sixty eight and they were there until nineteen ninety three, and I lived in England during some of the ira bombings. I remember a scene of Greece often when I asked him, what are you guys accomplishing? His only reply was, we have achieved an acceptable level of violence that we're no longer including only closer to a long term solution than we were in nineteen sixty eight.

At the same time, it's difficult to come up with alternatives for the Israelis that make any sense, and so goes history. Sometimes you have a palliative incredibly unpalatable choices. Jeff mccauslin's CBS News military consultant, Jeff, Thanks for the enlightenment. Good to talk to you. Come out to Gaysburg all right, I can't wait. Thank you very much,

At the same time, it's difficult to come up with alternatives for the Israelis that make any sense, and so goes history. Sometimes you have a palliative incredibly unpalatable choices. Jeff mccauslin's CBS News military consultant, Jeff, Thanks for the enlightenment. Good to talk to you. Come out to Gaysburg all right, I can't wait. Thank you very much,