Politicians go to Taiwan all the time, and it's just it's you don't even hear about it because it's not a thing. But all of a sudden, when the story that normally you wouldn't pay attention to of Nancy Pelosi going to Taiwan, China reacted like what, no, you can't do that. Oh my god, this means war. And everybody's like, what are you talking about? But well, right, and our instinct says there's something else going on, maybe several something else is to discuss. Josh Rogan, global opinions columnists for The Washington Post, joins us. Josh is the author of the excellent Chaos Under Heaven Trump she in the Battle for the twenty one century. Josh, welcome, always great to talk. How are you glad to be back? In? Your instinct is right, there is more going on. Okay, Well tell us what it is. Well, you know, it's sometimes these things just come down to politicians and their egos. Okay. And here you have Nancy Pelosi, who's about to be, you know, displaced as Speaker of the House, likely she's going to retire, right, and she sees this off to Taiwan is the capstone of what of her self proclaimed career as a leader in U S China relations. So for her, this is a legacy item. That's why she can't delay it. That's so she went to Tanneman Square in and she sees this as the other bookend. So she's building a legacy item. But the guys in the Wine they don't care about that. Why do they care about Nancy Pelosi's legacy trip her? It's essentially a vanity trip. They think she's self promoting what she is. And for them, right now, they're trying to ramp down tensions in US China relations for whatever reason, that's their chess move. They're playing a chess game, their moves to ramp down tensions, and she's ramping them up. And they're like, hey, can you not, you know, mess with our strategy please? Uh because maybe nobody ever asked you to do that, And she's like, no, I don't care what you say. So in the end, you've got these these you know, old politicians Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi frankly, who are stubborn and neither one of them wants to give in. And then when the funny part is that this was all being negotiated behind the scenes, very quietly for weeks. By the way, weeks they were trying to convince her, they're pleading with her, showing her military operations that would be necessary intelligence assessments. The story league, and someone asked Biden about it, and he confirmed it, and all of a sudden, the quiet negotiations were over because he blurted it on in the public and he made it even worse because then the Chinese really overreacted. And now Fannancy because he doesn't want to look like she's backing down, So now she kind of has to go, oh, wow, you you mentioned the age of the participants. Of course, Nancy and her husband benefited from the opium Wars, and that's where they really made their money. So at the same time, though with all due respect of that, which I find oddly hilarious, um, the idea that the Chinese would well, okay, that's that's good to know. But the idea that the Chinese would get a veto power over any American going to Taiwan is utterly galling right, And that's the principle that's important to uphold here. Now, what's funny about that is that you know from the what the White House guys says, and they're like, listen, we know that the Chinese always pitch in bone, and we're not saying that we should give in, but what we're saying is, according to our intelligence, they believe that policy is going, you know, with the President's support. They can't understand our system that like the President of the United States can't control the Speaker of the House of his own party. She would go and tell him to go screw himself. Like in their system, if you sure by the president you did, you're gone. You're breaking rocks for twenty years. Your whole family is finished forever. So they can't they don't believe the bidens when they say no, no, no, we can't control Nancy Pelosi and she she just got have to lump it. So they think it's an escalation, which is like again the opposite of what they're trying to signal. And then you know when and then once they sort of realized that our system was so sort of dysfunctional and they started to believe, they're like, oh, now we'll double down and get even nastier and meaner and threatening her more. And so I mean, there I think, yeah, of course we can't back down to Chinese bullying, but we have to also understand that the reason that there's a risk is because they don't believe anything that we say. We don't believe anything that they say. And Nancy Plussy is just sort of injecting herself into that situation without regard for much of that because again that's she wants to do what she wants to do, and I was gonna tell her what not to do, and so the people were stuck really in the middle of the time when he's of course, because you know, like for Hume said, it's not very unlikely that the Chinese is gonna start World War three over this, right, They're not gonna attack us. What they do is they attack the weaker party that's Taiwan needs. So when she leaves, you know, and they impost some sort of new economic or military aggression on Taiwan. Uh. She's writing the check, but they're paying the bill. So do we know what the great chess game is that the White House is playing. I'm surprised to see the Secretary of Defense yesterday Mr Austin also making noises about this isn't exactly the best timing form. I mean, so, what what do we have going on? What's in the works. Well, President Biden and General Secretary shi Jingping are on the phone right now. I mean it's a video conference, but they're literally talking as we speak, okay, And that's what that's the that's what they're trying to do. They're trying to regularize the relationships so that we could at least talk to one another. And what they stay is the Biden people, the White House people anyway, where they say is listen, this relationship is going down okay fast, not because we want it too, but because the Chinese Communist Party it's getting worse. They're getting more aggressive, more repressive, more expansionist, nastier, meaner, acting more like ansters every day. I think the White House gets that right. But what they're what they're saying is that we're not we want to sort of prepare for this struggle carefully. We want to do it, you know, we don't want to spark crisis unnecessarily. And when we do have a crisis, we want it to be on our terms, not on Nancy Pelosi's terms. So they're just trying to keep things copathetic, and she's messing with that plan. Now. Overall, do I think that the Biden administration is doing enough to confront the Chinese Comments Party? No, but you could understand, just sort of from an intellectual standpoint, why on one particular day they might not want Nancy Pelosi to start a crisis because they're not ready for that. Josh Rogan, global opinions columnist for the Washington Post on the line, I believe we have live feed of the video conference right now, Mr President, you're on mute. Uh the little picture of the microphone, sir, no touch it that that, No, just touch it once, sir, you're still on mute. So more more seriously, Josh, one factor we haven't yet discussed is the upcoming coronation of j and Ping Is is a third term leader of slash President for life, with the economy faltering, the COVID not going away. Um, I understand. One factor is we don't want to give him an excuse for acting like the hardass nationalist to rally support behind him. Right. Well, the two things you've got that relates to what you just said. One is that you know, we've got this whole region full of countries and right we don't want to give him, like any plausible story as to to claim that we're the aggressives instead of him, and even if it's not true, we don't want to give him that chance. But the other thing is that, like you know, what the White House guys will say is listen, in these few months, it's pretty dicey before Jun Thing gets coronated for his third term, because he's under the microscope blah blah blah. And that presumes something which I don't think it is true, which is that after he gets a third term, it's gonna be better. My assumption is that once he becomes dictator for life like a Putin or an MBS or Kim Jong un right, he's actually gonna get worse. He's gonna get nastier. That's what happens with you know, psychopathic dictators. Their appetite grows with the eating. And so I don't think there's ever gonna be a good time for Nancy Pelosi to go to Taiwan where they're not gonna do some threatened to do some crazy stuff. That's why I think you might as well go now, because I don't think it's gonna get better later this year. Um. But you know, that's the situation we're in. The Chinese Communist Party is becoming a totalitarian state, almost a fascist state, and that we're all gonna have to do. Is well, that sounds awfully damned if you do, and damned if you don't. It is because what I was trying to express is that j and Ping has to have a justification for being recordnated and with the other stuff floundering. If being the brave military hero against the West is an excuse, he's looking for somebody to punch in the face. And we'd prefer not to give him that excuse for all sorts of different reasons. But uh, yeah, yeah, no, I think that's true. But I think he's gonna get coordinated one way or the other, and he's gonna get nasty or one way or the other. And if we look at China, would look at that zero COVID stuff. I mean, it's crazy, either killing their own economy, they're putting millions of people into quarantine for two cases of like the you know, the the various don't even work that way anymore. But they can't change that. No one can tell the dear leader that he's wrong. That's what's so scared worry about it is it doesn't doesn't need any more boogeyman, he doesn't need any more excuses. He's he's done it. He's he's assumed total power. And absolute power corrupts absolutely, and that's why China is a big threat. But it's also why we can't say that China is going to be the greatest country in the world, because all of those systems are essentially corrupt and rotten at the core. Well, that's actually good news for us. Um uh the yeah, double edged swords certainly. Um So the final on this from you, do you think she one has to go and will go? Yeah? I mean I don't know. I think if I had to put money on it, yeah, I think she's gonna go because she's going to Soul, She's going to Tokyo. So now she doesn't go, everybody will know she backed down. And you know what the White House says is, oh, just go after the election. It be fine after the election, but she won't. She'll be speaker, but should be a lame duck. It won't be the same thing. And I don't think she wants to take that chance. So you know, if you know I think at the end of next week Nancy posting in a delegation in Atlanta, Taiwan, And like I said, the Chinese are just gonna have to lump it. And you know, if fiddlet you know, if they do do something really crazy and provocative, then the Biden administrations should support Pelosi, not the Chinese. Yeah, and you know, and if they do something crazy, that was if they do something crazy that was gonna happen over something else. I mean, if they're willing to go to war over Nancy Pelosi visiting Taiwan, which is a completely normal thing to do, well, then there's something else was gonna happen anyway. And when the CCP challenges are resolved, what we should do is we should show resolved. How about that? Amen to that, brother, Josh Rogan of the Washington Post. You should read them. Is the most recent pieces posted at Armstrong and getty dot com. Josh, we always appreciate the time well done anytime. I love how fired up he is about this topic because everybody should be are strong and

Politicians go to Taiwan all the time, and it's just it's you don't even hear about it because it's not a thing. But all of a sudden, when the story that normally you wouldn't pay attention to of Nancy Pelosi going to Taiwan, China reacted like what, no, you can't do that. Oh my god, this means war. And everybody's like, what are you talking about? But well, right, and our instinct says there's something else going on, maybe several something else is to discuss. Josh Rogan, global opinions columnists for The Washington Post, joins us. Josh is the author of the excellent Chaos Under Heaven Trump she in the Battle for the twenty one century. Josh, welcome, always great to talk. How are you glad to be back? In? Your instinct is right, there is more going on. Okay, Well tell us what it is. Well, you know, it's sometimes these things just come down to politicians and their egos. Okay. And here you have Nancy Pelosi, who's about to be, you know, displaced as Speaker of the House, likely she's going to retire, right, and she sees this off to Taiwan is the capstone of what of her self proclaimed career as a leader in U S China relations. So for her, this is a legacy item. That's why she can't delay it. That's so she went to Tanneman Square in and she sees this as the other bookend. So she's building a legacy item. But the guys in the Wine they don't care about that. Why do they care about Nancy Pelosi's legacy trip her? It's essentially a vanity trip. They think she's self promoting what she is. And for them, right now, they're trying to ramp down tensions in US China relations for whatever reason, that's their chess move. They're playing a chess game, their moves to ramp down tensions, and she's ramping them up. And they're like, hey, can you not, you know, mess with our strategy please? Uh because maybe nobody ever asked you to do that, And she's like, no, I don't care what you say. So in the end, you've got these these you know, old politicians Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi frankly, who are stubborn and neither one of them wants to give in. And then when the funny part is that this was all being negotiated behind the scenes, very quietly for weeks. By the way, weeks they were trying to convince her, they're pleading with her, showing her military operations that would be necessary intelligence assessments. The story league, and someone asked Biden about it, and he confirmed it, and all of a sudden, the quiet negotiations were over because he blurted it on in the public and he made it even worse because then the Chinese really overreacted. And now Fannancy because he doesn't want to look like she's backing down, So now she kind of has to go, oh, wow, you you mentioned the age of the participants. Of course, Nancy and her husband benefited from the opium Wars, and that's where they really made their money. So at the same time, though with all due respect of that, which I find oddly hilarious, um, the idea that the Chinese would well, okay, that's that's good to know. But the idea that the Chinese would get a veto power over any American going to Taiwan is utterly galling right, And that's the principle that's important to uphold here. Now, what's funny about that is that you know from the what the White House guys says, and they're like, listen, we know that the Chinese always pitch in bone, and we're not saying that we should give in, but what we're saying is, according to our intelligence, they believe that policy is going, you know, with the President's support. They can't understand our system that like the President of the United States can't control the Speaker of the House of his own party. She would go and tell him to go screw himself. Like in their system, if you sure by the president you did, you're gone. You're breaking rocks for twenty years. Your whole family is finished forever. So they can't they don't believe the bidens when they say no, no, no, we can't control Nancy Pelosi and she she just got have to lump it. So they think it's an escalation, which is like again the opposite of what they're trying to signal. And then you know when and then once they sort of realized that our system was so sort of dysfunctional and they started to believe, they're like, oh, now we'll double down and get even nastier and meaner and threatening her more. And so I mean, there I think, yeah, of course we can't back down to Chinese bullying, but we have to also understand that the reason that there's a risk is because they don't believe anything that we say. We don't believe anything that they say. And Nancy Plussy is just sort of injecting herself into that situation without regard for much of that because again that's she wants to do what she wants to do, and I was gonna tell her what not to do, and so the people were stuck really in the middle of the time when he's of course, because you know, like for Hume said, it's not very unlikely that the Chinese is gonna start World War three over this, right, They're not gonna attack us. What they do is they attack the weaker party that's Taiwan needs. So when she leaves, you know, and they impost some sort of new economic or military aggression on Taiwan. Uh. She's writing the check, but they're paying the bill. So do we know what the great chess game is that the White House is playing. I'm surprised to see the Secretary of Defense yesterday Mr Austin also making noises about this isn't exactly the best timing form. I mean, so, what what do we have going on? What's in the works. Well, President Biden and General Secretary shi Jingping are on the phone right now. I mean it's a video conference, but they're literally talking as we speak, okay, And that's what that's the that's what they're trying to do. They're trying to regularize the relationships so that we could at least talk to one another. And what they stay is the Biden people, the White House people anyway, where they say is listen, this relationship is going down okay fast, not because we want it too, but because the Chinese Communist Party it's getting worse. They're getting more aggressive, more repressive, more expansionist, nastier, meaner, acting more like ansters every day. I think the White House gets that right. But what they're what they're saying is that we're not we want to sort of prepare for this struggle carefully. We want to do it, you know, we don't want to spark crisis unnecessarily. And when we do have a crisis, we want it to be on our terms, not on Nancy Pelosi's terms. So they're just trying to keep things copathetic, and she's messing with that plan. Now. Overall, do I think that the Biden administration is doing enough to confront the Chinese Comments Party? No, but you could understand, just sort of from an intellectual standpoint, why on one particular day they might not want Nancy Pelosi to start a crisis because they're not ready for that. Josh Rogan, global opinions columnist for the Washington Post on the line, I believe we have live feed of the video conference right now, Mr President, you're on mute. Uh the little picture of the microphone, sir, no touch it that that, No, just touch it once, sir, you're still on mute. So more more seriously, Josh, one factor we haven't yet discussed is the upcoming coronation of j and Ping Is is a third term leader of slash President for life, with the economy faltering, the COVID not going away. Um, I understand. One factor is we don't want to give him an excuse for acting like the hardass nationalist to rally support behind him. Right. Well, the two things you've got that relates to what you just said. One is that you know, we've got this whole region full of countries and right we don't want to give him, like any plausible story as to to claim that we're the aggressives instead of him, and even if it's not true, we don't want to give him that chance. But the other thing is that, like you know, what the White House guys will say is listen, in these few months, it's pretty dicey before Jun Thing gets coronated for his third term, because he's under the microscope blah blah blah. And that presumes something which I don't think it is true, which is that after he gets a third term, it's gonna be better. My assumption is that once he becomes dictator for life like a Putin or an MBS or Kim Jong un right, he's actually gonna get worse. He's gonna get nastier. That's what happens with you know, psychopathic dictators. Their appetite grows with the eating. And so I don't think there's ever gonna be a good time for Nancy Pelosi to go to Taiwan where they're not gonna do some threatened to do some crazy stuff. That's why I think you might as well go now, because I don't think it's gonna get better later this year. Um. But you know, that's the situation we're in. The Chinese Communist Party is becoming a totalitarian state, almost a fascist state, and that we're all gonna have to do. Is well, that sounds awfully damned if you do, and damned if you don't. It is because what I was trying to express is that j and Ping has to have a justification for being recordnated and with the other stuff floundering. If being the brave military hero against the West is an excuse, he's looking for somebody to punch in the face. And we'd prefer not to give him that excuse for all sorts of different reasons. But uh, yeah, yeah, no, I think that's true. But I think he's gonna get coordinated one way or the other, and he's gonna get nasty or one way or the other. And if we look at China, would look at that zero COVID stuff. I mean, it's crazy, either killing their own economy, they're putting millions of people into quarantine for two cases of like the you know, the the various don't even work that way anymore. But they can't change that. No one can tell the dear leader that he's wrong. That's what's so scared worry about it is it doesn't doesn't need any more boogeyman, he doesn't need any more excuses. He's he's done it. He's he's assumed total power. And absolute power corrupts absolutely, and that's why China is a big threat. But it's also why we can't say that China is going to be the greatest country in the world, because all of those systems are essentially corrupt and rotten at the core. Well, that's actually good news for us. Um uh the yeah, double edged swords certainly. Um So the final on this from you, do you think she one has to go and will go? Yeah? I mean I don't know. I think if I had to put money on it, yeah, I think she's gonna go because she's going to Soul, She's going to Tokyo. So now she doesn't go, everybody will know she backed down. And you know what the White House says is, oh, just go after the election. It be fine after the election, but she won't. She'll be speaker, but should be a lame duck. It won't be the same thing. And I don't think she wants to take that chance. So you know, if you know I think at the end of next week Nancy posting in a delegation in Atlanta, Taiwan, And like I said, the Chinese are just gonna have to lump it. And you know, if fiddlet you know, if they do do something really crazy and provocative, then the Biden administrations should support Pelosi, not the Chinese. Yeah, and you know, and if they do something crazy, that was if they do something crazy that was gonna happen over something else. I mean, if they're willing to go to war over Nancy Pelosi visiting Taiwan, which is a completely normal thing to do, well, then there's something else was gonna happen anyway. And when the CCP challenges are resolved, what we should do is we should show resolved. How about that? Amen to that, brother, Josh Rogan of the Washington Post. You should read them. Is the most recent pieces posted at Armstrong and getty dot com. Josh, we always appreciate the time well done anytime. I love how fired up he is about this topic because everybody should be are strong and