And That's What You REALLY MissedBefore we jump into today's chat, a note on our content: this episode contains topics surrounding suicide that some listeners might find disturbing. If you or someone you know is in crisis or struggling, please call or text the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988.
Dave Karofsky is the Glee character everyone loves to hate, the high school jock and bully, but when the tables turn on him, it leads to a very dark place and a phenomenal performance by Max Adler.
Max joins Jenna and Kevin to break down his heartbreaking scene in "On My Way," ... from what he thought when he got the script to what it took to prepare for the scene, his feelings before he stepped on the set, and what it was like to shoot it.
Plus, the trio discusses the episode's impact, including the increased calls to The Trevor Project after the show aired and how it helped bring cyberbullying to the forefront.
Hey, listeners, Please note that today's episode contains topics surrounding suicide that some people may find disturbing, and if you are someone you know are struggling, call or text nine to eight eight for the National Suicide Prevention Hotline.
And That's what You Really Missed with Jenna.
And Kevin an iHeartRadio podcast.
Welcome to and That's what You're Really miss podcast. Hello Kevin, Hello, Today we have a great one serious one. We are talking to Max Adler about his performance in season three, episode fourteen on My Way.
About being bullied and then being driven to a very dark place, and hearing about how he got there, how he prepped, how what the filming of it was like, all of that, things that we have not been privy to.
I'm very fascinated to know all that, and I hope this is illuminating and informative for all those Glee fans who know this episode and know these scenes and the seriousness and great performance that he gave.
Yeah, oh, we had to bring you back for this episode. We just recapped it. But your performance was so I don't even know the word. It was really compelling, really well done, just really beautiful, and so we wanted to talk to you about the making.
Of Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate that very much. Thank you.
Yes, the whole time I was thinking too, Like last time we talked, we really got to start the conversation of how serious of a trained you know, you're trained actor and you're coming into the show and getting like heavy things in the part of coming in not knowing when you're going to be back, that whole thing. Yeah, but every time you come in like casual super Bowl episode, gigantic episode for you, and you come to get this episode, which is a competition, there's the quinn of it all. But you then have again this huge standout moment like you never come in just to say a line or two, and like it started like a slush, but you showed too much. You showed how good you were and they're like, okay.
You exposed yourself.
I was like, yeah, well, if you're going to expose yourself, that's the.
Way it exactly.
So take us through this this process of when you got this script. Was there any sort of call from anyone to be like, hey, I mean, yeah, I know I'm assuming not no, but I'm really just interested from like I really like to get into this from like the acting standpoint, like how you got into this?
Yeah, well I worked on the role a lot, you know, with my acting coach, and obviously a lot of like Fro've never been kissed really on I really kind of, you know, figured that this is pretty dark, like this guy is, you know, closeted and dealing with the Midwest and the family and the friends and the football team, and you know it's it's pretty pretty bad and pretty scary and pretty brutal. And then you know, at that time in the world there was actually tons of cyber bullying happening and suicides and Jamie Roademmeier and I mean I met his family at like the Glad Awards, and I remember, you know, Ellen was talking about it in interson Cooper and I was like, Froski is like going there, but you know, they're never going to go there on.
A Fox show and like a comedy, like, no way are they going to do that.
But like, I'm going to play it like that because that's kind of how I feel like doing it justice and kind of grounded and kind of gives me like this you know, little secret that I'm like hiding, you know, while I'm filming, and then I got the call from Darren actually I think it was Darren who got the script before me, and was like, dude, like, have you seen the script?
And I was like, no, not yet.
He was like, I'm like peruising it like I'm on set, but like something like you're like killing yourself and I'm like singing to you.
I'm like what, like what what?
And so that was like the first time that I heard there was you know, that was like a suicide attempt.
And then I got the script and then.
Again I was just kind of like thankful because I was like, good that they're they're going there.
I thought it was brave.
I thought it was you know, genuine to the character and representative, representative representing what people are actually going through and struggling with. And I knew again, you know, a lot of weight on my shoulders and had a big responsibility to do it right. And I remember talking to Brad Vieker like in a golf cart outside at night for like an hour and a half before we went into film. Amazing, Yeah, and just like really getting into that mindset and like being vulnerable with each other and talking about you know, like shitting days we've had and like dark moments and dark times and just like how you can just like you stare up at the ceiling and like get lost like for hours and like your mind just goes to dark places. And then that's when he like got the production design team to like put the airplanes up there and kind of like give that like I would just like, you know, stare off and like you know, go down the dark spirals and he kind of yeah, he just.
Let me do my thing, and.
You know, and then yeah, the guy playing my dad, Daniel Roebuck, was an incredible actor, and I just remember him like streaming my name and.
Just like the emotion in his voice.
And you know, the most powerful thing to me is like when you know anyone you're on set, like there's like like the Burly crew guys and like the boom up like gives you like that nod and he's.
Kind of fears and.
He was like, you know, he's like yeah, like that was the stuff, like oh ship, like okay, like this nothing I did something.
Good you know to get to get the boom oup nod.
So yeah, and I know, I think they put like the Trevor Project hotline you know, or the National Suicide Prevention Hotline at the end, and I just was so touched. I remember like the calls like they said, you know, it's spikes. Like right after that episode, it was like it went up like eighty percent people were you know, calling for help.
So you know, yeah, incredible, incredible experience.
Must have made you feel like you were representing, like you said, being a role model to hear the response of people actually reaching out and asking for help, right.
Well, yeah, because like the whole thing is like you're trying to make a difference and save lives and you know, show people that there is hope or you know, you see one person like you know, when when Chris Sculfer is talking to me in the hospital, it's just like just you know, it also shows people that if they're there for the person in trouble, you could save a life. And I thought that was a big thing feedback from too of like you know, if you're worried about someone, like do reach out, like don't hesitate, like you know, talk to them, ask if they're okay, let them know you're there, give them that kind of you know, open line of communication, because like that could save a life.
And so yeah, I thought there's a lot of lessons that came out of the episode.
And you know, yeah, to this day, I still get people, you know, thanking me for being alive and portraying that role and you know, patching things up with their family or having their parents see them in a new light and just like, yes, it's it's pretty powerful.
So yeah, I mean that montage with you in the actual attempt scene with in tandem Darren singing coughs here? Had you listen to that song previous to shooting and previous to it airing? Did you know that song?
I didn't know this song. I can't remember. Maybe I listened to it.
I didn't listen to Darren's version, you know, I didn't see But yeah, watching that was incredible too, and getting brad with the editing, like you know, like the spot that I watched it again recently and is you know, I like to when like the drum hits and I slammed the laptop and the drum hits and I hit it. I was like, gosh, so really, you know, you say, every every moment is like and impactful. And Darren's performing, I mean, he's just you know, his face is you know, filled with passion and his movie like he's just he's giving everything and so you know he always does, and I knew I had to match that, and so yeah, that's a you know, an amazing montage. And I just think, like, again, Brad, like you know, seeing that word, you know, fag on the locker and being around all those background actors like I it's like you feel it. You walk into the room and you're just like with a bunch of like imposing dudes looking at you. And I was I was like, yeah, there's like no acting required, like you're you're just you're in this place of like you know, awkwardness and vulnerability. And then against Brad's choice to like slow that down and just kind of like you know, see like the world coming out from underneath karossity. Yeah, I'm just something I'm very very proud of. It's it was a it was a cool moment. I think it was executed, you know, really well by the whole team Dream Team.
Are you someone that can walk away at the end of the day or after filming one of those scenes and shake it and be you know, leave it on this sound stage or doing something I've never had to do something that intense, and I think like doing something that intense, I feel like it might be hard for some people to just shake go home to your normal, right.
It was harder life leading up to it because as as you know, like you know, there's so much waiting in the trailer on that set, and it was the thing where I was like, you know, called in at like eleven am, but didn't shoot until like eight pm. And so it's like that was like the exhausting thing of like just staying in this like place like never knowing like when that non comes and.
You have to go, like you know, because you're always.
Just right there on the edge ready to do it until.
You get to we're ready for you. I was like, oh, you know, so like you're waiting for like hours and it's like lunch and it's like, you know, I'm like do I do I fall asleep?
Like do it?
You know?
Do I make a call?
Like listening probably two explosions in the sky or like Trickter or some kind of like you know, said music and just like yeah, it was like it was exhaust I remember like being exhausted going to film that because I was just like in this place and like trying to like keep the energy and then like the nerves of like I have to do that.
You know, you have one shot to like get it right. Are there going to be tears? Am I gonna cry? Is it going to be believable?
Like?
Am I going to represent? Am I gonna leave disappointed?
And then I remember like feeling really good about it, So I actually was able to shake.
I was it was like the thing of like.
Just like this release, I was like this like you know, guitartists driving home of like blasting like fun you know, like happy music, and just like like like yeah, like I think I just crushed that, and like I'm like I can like let it go and like I feel good and like, you know, however, it turns out like I think I gave it my all and like I was prepared and that kind of thing. So it's actually easier to shake, but like yeah, like the builds up to it, it was like yeah, it's like so so hard, and then you know it's like even in between takes is hard because you know it's like make a pairs, like so what are you doing this weekend?
And I'm like no, no, like you know, like just don't please, you know.
So I was like that, I'm like want to be nice to everyone, but it was like that was like a thing where I'm like like no, just please, you know, don't don't talk to me like please, you know. So there's like that awkwardness. But luckily I remember, like the set was just like my room, and so it was kind of just I would just like go in the room and just like sit there and wait until all again.
Everyone was really respectful.
And yeah, so yeah, I was kind of able to shake it afterwards, but leading up was scary and intimidating. And again, you know at that at that point in the show, there's a lot of eyeballs on.
That show, you know, and so I was like, oh man, this could go either way. So it was like the nerves and like I have to deliver.
I also think that scene, the scene, right, it was also a testament to the actual suicide scene, the attempted scene. Yeah, It's one of those things that again shows how powerful when used the right way, how music paired with a storyline like this can be even more impactful. And having Darren sing that song the way he was, like you said, how he was performing it with your performance and the weight of that was really just so powerful, powerful thing and it was like such the correct music selection, yes for that and having Beaker. I think it's and we've talked about this for years now about how that set was crazy and you're shooting a lot, you're doing music videos every day, and it's so nice to hear that he spent a time and a half with you being able to talk through that because that, I think, as an actor and as a director is so helpful to inform what both of you are doing and therefore like what everybody else is then feeling shooting it and then what we're feeling watching it, and I it's such a gift be able to have find that time to do that.
Yeah, and like to command that kind of you know, the respect amongst the crew that he would command and like you know, like, yeah, everyone take this seriously, like be quiet, Like it was like a very like you.
Know, we're not we're not playing around now, like this is a serious moment.
And again, yeah, like just for him to share things that he shared with me, And I was like looking over here because there was a there's like a plaque but him and I I'm trying to find where it is. But him and I got invited actually for like three years after that episode air to Sacramento to this like event called like Directing Change, and it was like all these high schools from all over the nation that were filming short films about mental health awareness and raising awareness about stigmas. And him and I were like invited, you know with like all the politicians of the state, and you know we were up there doing that because yeah, like that that episode had a lot of impact, So yeah, he really want the perfect guy. And honestly, it's weird because it's like now I hear it and it's all I can think about is is you know, the show and the scene, but it's strange things.
I feel like if you heard it on you know, on its own, it's like not.
Really a sad song, right, it's kind of like pumped up and like you know, like you're you're moving or grooving, and but it's like, yeah, something about again just that the montage and the way Darren did it and the lighting and and you know, and then cutting to me, but like like a bold choice, like and I don't know how they ended up choosing that.
I didn't either.
I mean because I was a big fan of that song before going in and it's completely reframed. Yeah, I viewed that. I'm like, oh, that is crazy that you can just switch how a song feels to you after you've heard it and enjoyed it and been a fan of it, right, and you hear it.
Differently, right, like lyricly like Life's Too Short, like costs Europe going to be like oh man, like this is it kind of hits differently now, you know.
It reminded me on a much different level. But when we first start of the show and the I think, do you know what I'm gonna say, Jenna, like keep holding on was like the first like emotional sort of thing we did, and it was like an Avril Avine song. I'm like, this is fine, yeah, like I love this song and we shot it and like, oh, this feels this is a song I've lived with for ages and now this feels very different. And that was sort of the starting point for all of us to realize how the music could evoke those emotions in this and.
Drive like a focus of emotion. Yeah, exactly what.
I feel about. What was it? Like the Florence and the Machine song that she's like a propella about like.
I hear that now and I like, you know, get emotional thinking about that, so totally.
Yeah, it was also something about like Blaine singing it, the character Blaine singing it while Kowski is attempting this thing. Was also just like a really beautiful and poetic yes moment. There's just so many layers to that scene.
Yeah.
And then again, yeah, the scene was Chris in the hospital, like my recovery was also the same same thing, like you was just I love that scene. Yeah, I was like, man, it was like, you know, he's just he's so good and brought it. And again the same kind of thing, just like you know, we wouldn't talk in between takes and he would just come in and we would cry and you know you're staying in that place.
But yeah, I just I love that scene. I love the whole episode.
You and Chris had such dynamic scenes together. It started from you, you know, bullying him and you know, beating him to him. You guys crying in a hospital room saying like I love you and I'm going to be there for you and I'm going to help you through this. It's a it's a really beautiful storyline and a beautiful arc for character, you know, because kind of our our relationships other than like you know, the curtain births of the world, like they they're so short lived that you don't get to see those arcs of partners seeing partners like you know, Rachel and Finn. We want I wanted more of those, but I really do get that with Krovski and Kurt, it's really really nice.
Yeah, it's quite it's quite dark.
And again it's like, you know, I just feel like, uh, you know, to this day, I'm still hearing from people like you know, I knew a Krowski in high school. It's like people are looking at bullies differently, or the bully is looking at the person he bullied differently and like.
Apologizing like that.
That Yeah, that that whole storyline and that episode in particular, I mean still has like these like ripples through uh you know, through society, and it's nuts.
It's like so crazy. Yeah, I'm still here talking about it.
Do you remember watching the episode for the first time when it aired. I'm sure nobody showed it to you, Brad.
I think Brad sent me just that suicide montage look and I remember I think, did you know.
You were capable of doing that? And like that stuff?
That's so sweet?
I was like so touched because I was like, what, like I always thought, I like, that's why I moved here, like trying to become an actor, Like I know, yeah I thought I could. Like I'm just thankful like someone gave me the opportunity to do it, and you know, it like worked, I worked.
But I just always remember that beause I thought that was like so.
Sweet that that he said that and he like showed me that, and I was I was like, I was, yeah, I was pretty proud of that, I know, like honest, but yeah, like I was like that turned out like really.
Well, so yeah, well you're you're so you know, there's a lot of technicality to your work, a lot of craft like a lot of of work that goes into your process. So it seems like somebody like you and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, like being able to watch your work back. It's all the steps in the process that you are seeing those come to life and come to you know, and read hopefully the way that you you tried to convey. Whereas you know, there are people who just throw it to the wall and are like, oh, I can't watch that because I didn't really put in the work, but you do, so i'd imagine it's it's sometimes you can like switch those the way that you watch yourself.
Yeah, I mean, I guess it's like seeing if what you tried to convey God convey, because I guess when you talk about the process or the craft, it's like I'm not like, you know, nothing crazy, but like it's more just about like I go through it and kind of like, uh, map out like all my thoughts, you know, because I remember like one of some acting coach told me, like feel thoughts, don't think feelings. So it was like not you know, don't think like so hurt angry. It was I feel like, oh my gosh, like my life is ending, or like oh my god, like this this, you know, this is the signer of the Facebook, like you know, my mom's gonna It was like like those thoughts and like it'll come across on camera and the camera sees everything, and so it was one of those things like, yeah, like mapping that out of like from walking into the room to seeing it on the laptop to like you know, getting the belt like this suit, Like what is this guy?
Because there's no words for me, like you know, it's like all internally.
So it was like, you know, my script was like marked up, you know, with like paragraphs and monologues of like where his head is at. So it's just kind of like watching them to see like did that come across?
And like, you know, I think it did. But it's also cool because.
I feel like everyone could have their own interpretation of you know, what they think he's feeling or what they would be feeling. But you know, like so it's like that fine line of like having some thought of specificity but not like showing it too much and like you know, letting the audience kind of like be able to use their imagination and go there too, and not.
Like beating them over the head.
Was like this is what I'm feeling right now, Like I want you to feel the same thing, you know.
So yeah, it's like but again, you know, Brad's the man. Brad kind of like let's you do a bunch of different takes and.
You know, it's just a very safe director, I'd say, right, I mean.
Yeah, he had never been kissed too, and I just yeah, like it's just like one of those you know sometimes you just find find that guy that.
Like you just work together really well with and he's that guy.
So you guys had those both those episodes to like build the rapport the trust, you know.
Yeah, and you know you know he also too, was like coming from like editing and you know it was kind of like in the background during like nip Talk and all that and like this this. You know, these are like big opportunities for him too, So that was nice, like someone that's also like has a lot of steak, you know, big stakes and like a lot of you know, shoot in the game to make this work and to like prove himself as a director instead of like totally eric Eric Sults is amazing, but you know something like that, like he's proven himself right, so like you know, whether this is a great episode or not, he's still Eric Stultz. But with Brad, I felt like he was like like.
You'll get called back to do more episodes.
So it was like, yeah, everyone's just kind of brought you know, their a game, I thought for sure.
Yeah, do you remember the initial reaction to after that episode, like if your friend's family, what people were saying to you after that ered.
It was more like the Trevor Project impact. You know, glad I realized have this mug. But like doctor.
Phil, you know, like me on the like doctor Trum like, yeah, I'm sure you talking about yeah, just like cyber bullying. And so I was like, all of a sudden, I was like this, you know, spokesman again for cyber bully.
How did that feel? Because it is a strange thing to like you're going, you're hired as an actor to go do this specific storyline. All of a sudden, it's like, now you're the face of this.
Go speak on right, right.
I mean honored, you know.
Really, I was like I was seriously and I was talking to people about, you know, what they were going through if if you know, they attempted suicide and and you know, the research of like just that hopelessness of like there's there's you know, there's nothing to live for, and there's not anyone that is going to have your back or listen to you. It's like a you know, a desperate, terrible feeling. And so yeah, I was like, if I'm going to talk about it, you know, let's uh, let's know what I'm talking about. And and you know, do it right and do it justice. And uh but yeah, because you know at that time, if you remember, like you know, twelve years ago, it's like cyber.
Bullyting was kind of new.
It was like this that that thing of like there was the face to face bullying and uh, you know it was like I remember, like my coach was the backin coach is kind of like you know, if you get shot by a bullet in person, you know that that hurts. But like this was like a thing like you know, bullets are just like hitting you when you're not even looking, like you know, the off, the phones off, and it's like this just this barrage of like comments and you know.
Posting. It's like yeah, it's like you could you can't do anything about it.
You know, it's like this paranoia of like when are they posting where they It's like a terrible, you know, terrible feeling.
And so there was kind of like this.
You know epidemic, I guess of suicides and suicide attempts, which is heartbreaking because these kids are so young and you know, and shelter and they have no idea.
You know, there's this whole big world out there that would.
Have accepted them and like they just thought that was the end at like twelve or thirteen's heartbreaking. So yeah, to get to talk about it at that time in the world was was amazing. And then yeah, it was like that Fox kind of like you know, I'm like Fox setting up interviews and you know, sending the car service and you know, driving around all the different There was like they they like got behind it too, and yeah it was pretty you know, a pretty amazing moment. But I was, yeah, I was I was proud to do it and I'm glad I got to do it.
Yeah, I'm glad it was you also who had that part and you know that responsibility because as people can tell, you take these things seriously. You're just like the nicest guy. You're not someone who's like I'm just gonna get on the show and be famous. I know, I have the serious part. I'm going to do it justice, give all the reality I can to it and lived experience I can to it, and talk to people and go on all these shows and actually advocate. And so that was just I think that we were all lucky to you know, be around someone like you who cared this deeply about it.
Yeah, well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, I mean it was so it was like a dream role.
You know.
It's like one of those things like if I saw this, you know, in.
A breakdown, I would like, please, you know, get me in probab wouldn't have wouldn't booked it, but like, you know, yeah I booked it when it was like two lines, you know, I said, talking about what are the super cuts or lulla some ridiculous line, you know, slush and and uh So it was one of those Yeah, it was like a thing where like once they took that character in that direction, it was a dream role on a dream show where like.
A dream time. It was like I was like, yeah, I have to have to do this right, Like it was a crazy opportunity.
You know.
I have a question about to go back to that scene real quick with you and Chris, because we've seen Chris and scenes where he can just sort of like switch it on and just be emotional and like how is he doing this? But this felt different to me watching it, where it felt like you were both so in it at least from a viewer standpoint. Did it feel sort of like cathartic in any way, because you had been this bully for so long, for so many years on the show, to his character of sitting there, You're in a hospital bed, You're in a place of vulnerability, and this person that you've been beating up on physically and emotionally, and obviously it's not Chris, it's Kurt. But I just like, what was that like to sort of sit in that and be in that because obviously it takes hours to film these scenes because it was just such a nice balance of your guys' work.
Yeah, Like, but I kind of I think I remember like kind of like checking out from the role, and I was actually just like looking at Chris and like knowing how hard his life you know, was and is, and like you know who he is and where he grew up and like his experience and kind of like just my heartbreaking for him that he couldn't he could have been that guy, you know, like he he could have done that and uh and not made it and we never the world would never have had this calf, you know.
And so I was just like, ah, God, like I'm gonna start crying, you know.
I was just just like heartbreaking, like looking at him, being like, God, you were you were you know, probably one of those one of those guys. And also yeah, like the fact that he was there, you know, the character was there for Kurowski like and like the only one that was there you know, was just so so touching and so sweet and and an amazing arc for for the writing of it. But yeah, I he just he brought it and we both you know, I just took it very seriously. We weren't chit chatting in between like everything. We both knew it was like a big deal and had to represent. Yeah, never really you know, I don't know, like I never really talked to anyone about it, like I wish I did.
I wish I would love to.
Sit with you know, Ryan or Brad or you in and uh, you know, it never happened. And even I was like, man, like I would love to just talk to chrispect yo. Like we we did that, like we we had some some ship, but like no, it was just kind of like, okay, have a good day, you know. I was like, all right, we never like really discussed, you know, anything about the impact of that.
It.
We just kind of like did it and then went home. But I was, yeah, I was I.
Was moved and I thought he's amazing and he was so great to work with. He's just he's like so you know, he's so natural too, Like he just he just grounded, like kind of keeps you grounded and natural.
Like oh yeah. It was just like talk to you, you.
Know's insane to be on the other side of that with him. He's like you are so good. He's crazy.
Yeah, and it's so cool too, because it was like, you know, yeah, like you said, like the show like the Jane Lynch and Nick Ball, you know, and like the craziness, but like it felt like we were shooting a different show. We're in a hospital like no suicide attempt and like you know, tears and like what the hell.
Like yeah, filming, but was so cool. I was like, I'll get in like film, you know, this dream scene and like a dream role.
But like on this on this musical comedy series. Uh yeah again.
It's like, you know, a testament to the writers because I thought going there was so great because you know, they could have.
Like topped out and like not done there. I don't know. I wonder if like they originally had him dying.
I don't because after that that really wasn't much for karosity, except like the Bear and Darren weird weird things. But like, I do you wonder if like you know, they originally thought he might just kill himself, but Fox was like, no, you can't.
I don't know, I don't know or like the impact that.
Was for you, Yeah, let me know.
Yeah, we'll find out. I don't think that. I think the answer is no. I think I think the thing abougly is the hope that it gives people, Right, So I'm sure they could have won that route, but then you'd really be in a drama and then we really be on a different show.
But what's the lesson there?
Like that's that's just right, Like you're not alone, right, You're there's you're you know, there's people for you. And so yeah, I think it'd be a different show. But it's a good question. We'll find out. But that's also like we also, you know, we've been watching the past three seasons and a lot of you know, your storyline was very tied to Chris's throughout the whole thing. That's Chris's world, Like that's Chris is Glee, you know, he gets to do both, but like that Chris lives in that drama world of Glee. The and that's what makes the show just so dynamic is you have the curtain Bert scenes, the Karofsky Curt scenes, you know, the Blaine Kurt scenes, and then you have us clowns in pools on the stage.
So show, Yeah, a lot of my family really started liking to lear.
Like when Chris did hold.
Your Hand, I think that was that was the thing that was just like, again, a beautiful song and they're like, whoa cool you're doing like fels like down right. But yeah, going back to yeah, I think like the lesson was that like a lot of like Krossty does come around to accepting himself and having help for the future and knowing like there is a life, you know, outside of this tortured world. But yeah, it was like he had to go through the suicide attempt to find that out. So I think the show was kind of like, hey, don't don't go through that attempt. Know that this is waiting for you on the other side. You know that there is there are people that will accept you. You can be yourself, you know. And again I thought it was brilliant because it was like the Midwest and as you know, there's still you know a different different world than you know, the Midwest, than LA and New York as far as acceptance, and think it was important for people to also realize that before social media, like oh, like you know this small town you know and wherever you know, there are people that think differently outside of this and like there is a place I can go where I can be safe and be myself. And so yeah, there's a lot a lot tied into it that it was pretty awesome.
One of my favorite lines that I'm going to paraphrase and butcher it here is in that scene with Chris. But I think it was very very important on many levels. But you talk about how so many people, but he could have been the person who did what you did, or been the person who actually succeeded at trying to do what you did, but he never did, you know, Like he was the he stuck with it and got through it all and found his people and found his community and his friends. And I think so often in TV shows too, like Sex Education had a similar storyline where the gay character was being bullied and that guy was secretly gay and they ended up having a thing, which I think can frustrate some viewers like why is he with the abuser? But I think the flip side of that is this scene where nobody knows the experience of living through that better than a person who is living through it, and people handle it differently, and to be able to have those sort of opposite ends of the spectrum in that same situation talk to one another and confront it with one another, I think was really powerful because you see why it's hard enough, especially in the small town like this, like where the show takes place, to find someone who's gay in the same community as you, on top of being accepting of yourself, never mind all the outside forces. And I just thought I didn't remember that line from when I first saw it and seeing it now having you know, so many more shows with queer characters and queer storylines, like, ah, that's what it is, though, it's because you have people handle this differently, And yeah, unfortunately the queer kids have to be the stronger ones a lot of the time because they're the only ones supporting themselves, and sometimes they don't get through it, and other times they do and they have to pull up everybody else behind them to help them. But I just that stuck with me watching it this last time of your work, and how you said that in his recognition of that was just really powerful.
Well everything you just said was very powerful, very wise and observant.
But yeah, I think like, yeah, that's kind of the key thing is like that that if he was able to again like Chris himself, like like to find that acceptance within himself and like own who he is, you know, one hundred through and through, it's kind of like, yeah, like passing the baton on to the next person.
That needs it.
If you accept yourself, I feel like it's it's kind of like a little bit of your responsibility to help others do the same, you.
Know, and and passed that on. And that's kind of what he did in that in that scene.
So yeah, what's nice to see now in society. It's like Chris and Kurt were sort of unicorns back then, and now I feel like you look out in the world like there's either a lot more unicorns or this isn't such an exceptional thing in a great way. You know, this is there's a lot more people who can just be themselves at a younger age. And despite all the continuing government societal pushback.
Modern Family, Like I think it was a during our while Glee was airing. Didn't like some state banned Modern Family I remember, or Georgia.
That sounds about right.
I'm not sure like that's what, but I remember, like I don't know if you watched the the Emmys, the Globes. I think the Emmys and that woman spoke from.
Glad and you know, they're kind of saying like.
People are like scared of what they don't know and if if, you know, aren't represented in media, people never see that, and so that's why there's the playing and the antagonizing and and the fear of you know, like basically you know, ignorance because they don't they don't know. So yeah, I feel like the more representation that is in media and all these shows, like, the more accepting people are.
And I feel like a lot of younger people are are more confident now.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but like the vibe is like I feel like people are kind of owning who they are more and celebrating the you know, unique differences instead of kind of hiding and trying to blend in and be like cookie cutters.
Yeah, that's the hope, right there, was like a trail We kind of did.
The trail blazing of that because you know, there was like a show where like a lot of young people watched it, and I don't I don't know if that was a I mean, yeah, there was like Wilson Cruz or like you know, there was there's like a few a few shows, but like this, I just think was like that mainstream you know, exposure.
Families watch it to other right exactly, key, Yeah, for sure. Yeah, Well Max, you always thank you.
No, really wonderful, beautiful job. You should be proud. We're proud of you. That's really still, like to this day watching it yesterday, like so powerful, so really impactful and beautiful. So good work. Thanks thanks for joining us and chatting about it. I think everybody will really appreciate hearing just your feelings behind the whole thing. And I hope you guys watch it. If you haven't, go back and watch it.
Thanks Meg, good to see you, I'll see.
I also have to say Brad Beaker, who directed that episode and many other episodes on Glee. He also did. I worked with him on a couple of like more uh serious, more dramatic scenes, and he's really so caring and I don't know, gentle with his actors. He's really a safe place for his actors, and it's just it really makes for better work. I think there are just some of the things I couldn't have done without him being the director in the chair and steering the ship at the time. You feel so safe, you feel non judged. He sets a tone that feels like, no matter what you try, everything's good, everything's okay, everything susceptable, or like you're fully supported on all sides. Yes, yes, and Max, thank you so much for that, I mean, just his art and his sharing that beautiful piece of work, and also for coming on and chatting with us about you know, such a sensitive and serious subject that he really handled so beautifully.
So yeah, like I said before, I'm glad it fell to him to do that, because he's handled it with grace and deep deep thought ever since. And it you know, I think that requires that and it's nice that he's taken on that mantle. Yeah, thank you Max for joining us to talk about this.
Thanks for coming you guys, that's what you really missed.
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