Amazing Wildlife: A San Diego Zoo PodcastRick and Marco highlight a rare and unusual species that's known as a “spiny anteater.” It's the egg-laying echidna! Our hosts are joined by San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance senior wildlife care specialists Jen Lebeau and Adam Murdoch to discuss one of the newest species at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park. We learn about puggles (baby echidnas), how courtship behaviors contribute to the breeding process, and why only the male echidnas are Ambassadors at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park. We also find out more about its prickly spines, which resemble a porcupine’s quills, and how it protects itself in the wild.
Hi, I'm Rick Schwartz, what as the world. I'm Marco Wentz.
Welcome to Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of wildlife from around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts. This podcast is a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio and San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alignance, an international nonprofit conservation organization which overseas the San Diego Zoo and Safari Park. Marco, I have to say I'm pretty excited about this episode's topic and the amazing wildlife care specialist we will be talking to today.
Oh yeah, one hundred percent. Aside from this being a pretty rare and unusual species, I mean, why are you so excited?
Rick? Well, okay, it has to do with my history. Back in the day, way back in the day, when I first started working at the San Diego Zoo's Children Zoo, which is now the totally Amazing Wildlife Explorers Base Camp, I used to do presentations about this particular species we're talking about today.
Well, wait, hold on one second, I know you didn't just start randomly talking to people about wildlife. You know, you always do a presentation with one of the Wildlife Ambassador animals.
So do you mean to.
Tell me that there was an ekidnap living at the old children Zoo?
Yes.
Indeed, Marco Victor of the Echidnae was a longtime resident in the original San Diego Zoo Children's Zoo, and although we do not know his exact hatching date, we know he came to us in the nineteen fifties and was there in the Children's Zoo while I was working there from two thousand to twenty ten.
I didn't know that. Had you ever worked with the kidneys before working with Victor?
No, not at all. In fact, I had never even seen one in person before. I had only seen a few images of one in my mammal encyclopedia back in college, and honestly never thought I would ever see one in person, much less have the opportunity to care for one.
Yeah, no kidding Inside note kids in Enscychopedia. That's a book with a bunch of facts in it.
You should google it last like Google, but with paper.
Yeah right, but you know that. Being said, now, I see why are you so excited about this episode?
Yeah?
Exactly, And there is so much to learn about these amazing animals. I only hope we can fit everything into this one episode.
I know what you mean.
I mean like being called a spiny ant eater and not even being an ant eater at all, or being.
A mammal but hatching out of an egg.
Or being related to a platypust but not looking at all like a platypus.
Oh oh yeah, or being one of five monotreams alive today.
Ah yes, the monotremes.
Wait, should we explain to everyone what a mono tream is?
Well, I mean we could, or we could head to the Safari Park and let's have my friends there tell us all about mono treams and about the amazing echidnas we have at the Safari Park.
Now, you know I love going to the fire Park. Let's go.
I am Jen Lebo. I'm a senior Wildlifecare specialist.
I am Adam Murdoch. I am a senior Wildlifecare specialist.
A monoitreme is just a fancy word to tell you they are an egg laying mammal. So most people know that the duckbill platypus is an egg laying mammal. They are a monotreme. The other one out there is the echidna and there's the short beakd echidna as well as the long beaked to ekidna. And echidnas are one they're completely fascinating, but two, a lot of people refer to him as a spiny anteater, so that might give you kind of a little bit more of a picture.
I could see that the short.
Peaked to kidna has a nose that's maybe about two to three inches long, and their body is covered in spines, and they have little short legs and feet that kind of dig into the ground really easily. Their back feet face backwards. Essentially, they look a little weird, and they have a spine covered tail.
If you think of like an overgrown hedgehog, right, yeah, kind of most that's like the closest thing you can come up with, even spiny anteater to me, Like if you think about an anti heater like a tamandua, nothing like that. Don't imagine that. Fine, So they just eat ants and other things, but that's where the name comes from, right, But overgrown hedgehog, yeah, I'd say.
I mean, it's s a unique animal too. And I have to say to you for our listeners, we're at the Safari Park. We're at the Backman's Center where a lot of the conservation magic happens from our Mountain Yellow to get frogs as an example, a lot of good conservation efforts and this particular species, the echidna. We were just saying earlier, it's to the Safari Park, right. Can you speak a little bit about that.
I think the first ones that arrived was in about twenty thirteen. I want to say it was Chindi and Shaw, which I'm pretty sure we at the time believed we had a male and female. No information about like how they reproduce other than it's haired. Were like, yeah, they lived together, we're going to get some more and a few years or a month, we don't know, and their book males. So that didn't work out in that aspect at the time, but it started the path of taking care of echidnas and then where we got to where we're at now with having a breeding center for them and collaboration and touch.
That's a quick leap forward through everything there from getting cute. But let's talk about the breeding center a little bit. I mean, the success has been really fun. I know, we were out here filming for the Annal Planet show many years ago and word was passing through very quickly that we had a puggle, which is the cutest name baby a kidnap basically, So if you could walk us through, just even briefly, the process or how that success came about, and then how many puggles have we had so far?
The first puggle in late twenty nineteen, I think he was hatched. We had the two that first came in twenty thirteen. It was really as an ambassador program. Our curator wanted to get more into the breeding aspects and so he acquired some other individuals at the outback where we have our breeding center. Neither of us were on the team at the time, but I don't think there was a big concerted effort that we are going to do this for this amount of time and this is a formula. They ended up with a puggle. But since that point and we've really been able to focus attention, make collaboration, research, what other facilities do, talk to other facilities, mostly in Australia. The most we know about how to successfully breed got us to achieve the success we have so far, which Jenken because she remembers numbers more.
Yeah, you know, I think it's worth noting too, in case guess aren't awarethy kidnaps nique for a lottery is right?
You said monitoring eggling mam or for what that's wild?
Right?
Right?
And also like it's different than like say a bird where I can see hair on a nest.
Oh they laid an egg.
Oh they laid another egg. Oh, now they're incubating. Like can you say a little bit at the natural history? Like this animal goes in burrows?
Right, yeah, they do. So when it comes to breeding, there's in certain situations like on Kangaroo Island, they always refer to it kidd of breeding that there will be a single female and multiple males following this female around, and then it tends to be that the I guess last man standing gets to breed with her, or she might have some choice in the matter. We have seen with our females sometimes it seems like they have a little bit more choice in the matter, which is kind of cool to watch. But we have done one on one parents with our males and females. We've also done the train setup for them. We have them on twenty four hour video surveillance. Yeah, I guess, per se, but we watch the footage every single day and then we monitor what behaviors we're seeing and look for the behaviors. So once we have a pretty good idea that the different layers of courtship have taken place, then we go and separate out the male and then it's the waiting game. Gestation can be anywhere from sixteen to twenty eight days. We're hoping to narrow down that. That's quite a yes, a very very big window.
Part of that is there's five different subspecies of short beat to kidnap from different climate zone. So there's new Guinea too on Australia Mainland, Kangaro Island and then Tasmania. So how long the gestation period is could differ on subspecies. We don't really know, right, So that's the biggest range, but it doesn't mean anywhere between sixteen and eighteen is typical. It's just like the range of what we know.
Got got it okay?
Our females tend to be around the twenty one to twenty two day mark, that's what we tend to find.
So a gestation is from when she got pregnant when the egg comes out, yes.
So essentially during that timeframe they are still active and out and about in, eating their food, doing all of those things. Shortly before the end of that gestation time frame, we see activity start to diminish, consumption starts to drop off, and then they disappear for about ten to eleven days. Oh wow, they will just stay either in the nest box or they'll dig a burrow down underground and we don't see them for that period of time. Wow, they come back out and resume normal activity. They start eating their food again, doing normal kidnaped things overnight, and we typically about a week after they emerge, we will pick them up and check their pouch and see if they have a puggle. And we were extremely lucky in twenty twenty two to have both of our females have a puggle. Nice twenty twenty three, the same thing.
Oh yeah, congrats you guys.
The first time seeing a tiny little puggle in that pouch, can you just scrab.
It's not like when we think pouch sometimes we think like kangaroo deep pouch.
Rights that white.
Yeah, ekidnas actually don't have a true pouch. The females kind of create the pouch through muscles and it's just a very temporary thing. So when they have a puggle on the pouch. That pouch is very tight and it's almost like it is really hard for us to even peek in there.
Yeah. So kangaroo pouches marsupials often will have either four facing pouches or upwards I guess, depending on the species, in the knees, or backwards facing like a wombat, I believe. Whereas an echidna, imagine like an overgrown belly button that when developed, it just it gets really big. It can hold a baby in there. You have muscular control over your overgrown belly button. And when you don't need a giant, fatty muscular belly button, it just retracts back to a nice flat tummy.
Tom So, when we saw the puggle with our female orange, I barely even got a chance to see it. Everyone else kind of had a better angle. I saw the little movement of a tiny, little pink puggle in there and got all excited and just like let her close back up, and it's just like can we look on.
Yeah, I mean, what's an interesting how thattation?
That is?
Right? It's like muscles just you know how like you know you see someone you kind of like you kind of sucking the gundle but that got rick. I wanted to point something out there you guys, because you mentioned earlier like these are ambassadors, right, so this is wildlife that our guests sometimes only encounter throughout their day at the Safari Park.
It could be a it could be an eagle out right, it could be a.
Cockatoo kidnas for one, and I want to just point out you know, these are animals that have really good relationships with our wilde left care specialists and they can also be part of breeding programs to help out with their species. I think that that really speaks to the care and the skill sets that you guys have what you're doing.
So we have two different groups of ekidnas. The ambassador programs has the males, whereas the females have been kept out of public view because throughout the year if they're pregnant through they're pregnant or they're carrying a puggle in the pouch, which after they complete that ten to eleven days with the egg in the pouch and it hatches, it's another forty five to sixty days before they deposit the puggle into a nest box and then the mom plugs it up so it can't get out and predators can't get in, and then she comes back every three to five days to nurse it. It's really we just learned a really nutrient dense milk that the mom feeds it so it doesn't need to eat more than that. And then it stays in there for another four months while it's growing, and then at some point, at about the six month age mark, it will emerge on its own and it'll still nurse for mom and follow her around until later on down the road. So it's a long process. It's a long period. It can be a year plus roughly that the kid is with its mom. The puggles with its mom, and so the boys, because they're only needed to make babies. Once that job's done, they're out so they can go be ambassadors. And then the mom raises the puggle, and then we essentially gives support to mom and puggle a year round as much as they need.
Right and to Marco's point and to your point, the females aren't in a space as the public can see. This is an off site area for them, mostly because they're either underground or they're nocturnal, so it's not much for anybody to look at.
For one.
So that's where the boys coming in as ambassadors are really important to allow our guests to see them up close when there's somebody with obviously the animal doing a presentation. So it's an opportunity for our guests to here at Sari Park to get to see one of the coolest animals.
Up close and personal.
Because I mean, we're talking about this, there's gestation, there's an egg that needs be incubated, there's a baby that drinks milk. I mean, it's covering all the bases. It's they've got a beak as you refer to, although it's not quite like the beak of a bird that is referred to as a beak. It's more of bone. It's covered with more of a leathery skin. But you just go down the list like that of all the things about the species. It's absolutely fascinating them. And the fact that we have been able to start breeding like we have through collaboration, through working with others, talking with others, the success we've had with this is it's just fascinating to me. I want to go back real quick because they know there's something Mark wants to talk about. Two with that collaboration and everything else and people working together, but real quick, Adam kind of mentions like an oversized hedgehog. Can we talk really quickly about those spines quills? I mean there's always a myths about porcupine shooting their quills, which we've covered. We know they don't the spines or quills what's the term used for a kidne's spine?
Okay, so they yeah, they're just like a quill, but they're you know, modified hair to be used for defense. Each individual spine is essentially attached into its own muscle group, so all of the spines can move individually if they choose so, which is really fine.
Yeah, so defend themselves that way. Now, I do know from reading earlier too, one of their defenses not only being able to move those spines in any direction, but they will also use those large paddle feet to sort of sink down into the soil if they can, and lock themselves into place where there's a rock or a log or anything like that. They're pretty strong for.
Their size, incredibly strong. There are times that you try to pick them up out of their nest box or wherever they are and it's like what are you holding onto?
You know, smooth.
Do you have suction cups on your feet?
Like?
What happened? How can I not get you out of here? But yeah, they're so strong, powers of a kidneys they are.
So what would be the predator they're defending themselves against? Is it just dingoes or some Tasmanian devils? Maybe depending on location, or I.
Would venture to say a white tailed eagle, you know in Australia.
Like we have the New Guinea and so there's the singing dogs, I mean harpy there's singing dogs. Harpy eagles are South America. But there's an alternative.
Yeah, there's a Philippine monkey eating you know, but there's various raptors that are actually pretty good at hunting those spiny animals, you know.
Yep, they're able to knock them.
On to their side. Yeah, can you really quickly?
I've read somewhere with you know, sometimes there's wildfires to naturally curry in Australia, like there is here in San Diego, and they have unique adaptations with that digging behavior that they did to avoid being singed by those fires.
Can you speak a little bit about that?
Yeah, they will dig down into a burrow and there is actually from I guess it was the wildfires in twenty twenty.
Yeah.
I think that they have boat of echidneas that got the tips of their spines singed and kind of earned in the fire, but they survived, So the tips of the spines were gone, but the echidnam was perfectly fine, incredibly adaptable.
That would be important to note though from a conservation point of view. They're adapted for the wildfires that would naturally spread quickly as grass fires through Australia. And when you start talking about how wildfire changes with climate change in human activity, if it's a more intense burn with more vegetation, they might not be able to survive a fire that's not naturally occurring in their natural entity.
Yeah.
Yeah, and that's a good segue.
I mean you speaking to the conservation efforts for a lot of these species. Some are vulnerable. I was looking at some of the statuses, so it's important. One, you know, it's a newer species for the Safari Park. Two conditions with climate changs that are happening are affecting the populations. I'm sure there's other nuances of human development, you know, affecting the populations of these species, So it's important to collaborate, right, And I happen to be in the air when you guys had your second official ECHIDNAS summit. Yes, ever, Raich, can you talk to me about that?
So that was kind of Adam's brain child last year for the first one.
Yeah, he's making money faces aroun you guys, he's super stoked about based.
On basically through you know, we can do a lot of email communication with essentially a lot of partners around the world and you're also at the park, but to be able to get everybody in the same room and just have a conversation about ECHIDNAS and where are we at and where do we want to go? So this year we went a little bit bigger, yeah, which was really kind of cool.
Last year came from the idea that it was frustrating because we talked to population biologists and got a lot of information there, and talked to our events a lot of good information there, but it was like very slow having to talk to different people, and it was just let's get a bunch of people in a room who are really smart and see what we can come up with. And it worked out great because that's when reproduction Chris Tubbs jumped in, is like, we can do fecals to measure hormone levels and I don't have it's nearly the education any of these other people do. But to have everyone get in a room, that's where we do the hormone studies that we do when we have collaboration with population geneticists around here and down in Australia, and it's just blossomed from there. And I think online we had twenty five people logged in, but each login could have had who knows how many people, and thirty five ish people in the room. It was amazing. It was amazing turnout how much interest there is and was at the time where we'll go in the future. Who knows.
Yeah, I know, it was really inspiring seeing all the people from around the world and you were saying Sampaolo, Abu Dhabi I think was another one, right, Bust Gardens, Tampa, Brookfields, Chicago, Lazo, Living Desert and so many more. All these kidneys specialists in various degrees of skill.
Sets right helping out. So that was amazing. Well done for coordinating that you guys.
And I think it goes again we've talked about on this podcast before with the value of working together and how our organization, you know, Wildlife Alliance is in the name there. So it's a great example I think for our audience to understand that our alliance has sometimes just come as an idea for someone who's caring for an animal, going, hey, would it be cool if we get all these smart people in the room together like that said then and now it's like you're two years in, five years from now, ten years from now, this could be the starting point for really being that anchor for this species to make it through whatever comes its way in the future. So I mean that's off to you guys both for everything you do. Really appreciate it.
Thank you, thank you very much.
One of the things we've come across is any of the research and the knowledge out there is primarily mainland echidnas and there's a researcher in Tasmania and a researcher in Kangaroo Island and nothing written on the New Guinea and so we hope to fill a lot of that gap. It won't be complete without collaborators and just every We didn't expect this last year and it's just so exciting and energizing to see what next year? What we like that there is we still don't believe it.
Well, I think we will wrap it up with this last question for the both of you. Answer one at a time for them, if you would. When you think about your career and all you're doing, and I know for us, especially in this world, we're day in and day out with these animals elbows deep and taking care of them, and it's just a way of life for us. But did you ever get a chance to like just pause for a moment and be like, I'm taking care of one of the only egg laying species on this planet right now, this ancient history of this animal.
What's it like?
What's it like to have that moment?
So I first worked with the kidneys at the Saint Louis Zoo back in two thousand and two and left there and worked at Disney for about sixteen years and then came out here to the Safari Park with the goal of being on the Australia team and working with a kidness. So that was that was the end game.
I was just going to say check.
Yeah.
So it's wonderful. I absolutely love it. I've been here for two years now and it has flown by okay.
But why are kidneys? Why was that the end?
I am they are just my favorite species. Yeah. They they're fascinating. They are stubborn, they are.
A little twinkling you're on the.
They are incredibly smart. They're so funny to watch watching the footage of the Puggles as they're growing up, how they explore their space and when they start to learn that they can climb onto things, and watching the progress of how that happens. That they'll climb a little bit and they fall off and they you know, may fall onto their back and they get up, and they go back up again, and they may go a little bit higher, and they'll look at the edge of that piece of dead fall that's maybe a foot from the ground, and they look at the edge of it and they go tumbling off of them and they go back up again. And so it's just, you know, it's so much fun to watch them.
They're amazing, very cool, very cool, Adam, how about you, man?
I really like the process of bringing something together. The kidneys are fascinating because they're unique. They're unlike anything else, even platypodes, and there's such a black box of knowledge and such a space to fill of how much we can learn from them, learn about them, and then share that because one of the big goals for learning about short beat to kidness, which is not an endangered species, is then hopefully whatever we learned from short beeak kidness applying that to the long beat to kidnet, which there's three different species, to varying degrees of how many there are, and so hopefully someday we can get to the point of learning enough to help out the long beat ekidneys species. I really like people, So the being part of a process of bringing people together to solve or contribute to a problem that involves animals and conservation, that's everything that makes me happy. So it's great to work with them and then share it with others and get others involved.
I would love that answer out of it.
I mean, I wanted to point because earlier you said something like I'm not as smart as you other people.
A friend, I've known you for a long time. You are amazing you two.
I mean to people who are listening, especially kids right now, like just be true to your skill sets, what.
You love, and you can do a lot. I adam love talking to people.
I do is I Rick does as well, you know, and look what we're doing right now, Fred and with your love as well, with kidness a look why you're right now a safari parks there really just follow what you love and anyway kudis to what you both have done.
Thank you so much, Thank you so much for being here. It's a pleasure.
I knew I was going to enjoy this episode, and wow, Jen and Adam did not disappoint.
Oh absolutely.
And I still can't get over how the kidneys make a pouch when needed and then go back to the flat belly when the pouch isn't needed.
Seriously, as if it wasn't enough that there are mammals that lay eggs, they also have an on demand pouch and they aren't even marsup mules. The kidneys are so fascinating, I tell you, there is so much to learn about them.
Man, there really is so much to learn.
And I wanted to share with everyone listening that if you go to SDZ Wildlefexplorers dot org.
You can see images of an Echidna puggle.
They're the cutest, ridiculous And not only that, but also learn more about ekidnas and there will be an ekidney day now. The name hasn't been decided on just yet, but this is the collaboration during the World ECHIDNA Summit and it's going to be coming up on July nineteenth, So keep an eye out on social media for fun and interesting a kidnapposts from us and from our zoos around the world.
So cool, so cool. I love the collaboration. I'm looking forward to this new acidnety that everyone's coming up with. And I love it when we give special attention to such a special species. I mean, come on, I still can't get over the egg laying mammal thing.
Oh, I know, absolutely right, But you know, Rick, there are other egg laying animals out there.
In the world.
We could do an episode on. You know what, I'm really.
Marco, I wonder whatever do you mean?
Hell?
You know, being at the Safari Park and talking to our kidney team reminded me of many.
Of our feathered friends I have at the Safari Park.
Now listen to this, now, what if what if we went back to one of our big aviaries to find out more about one of those big birds that live out there.
That sounds like a great idea, Marko, I love it, and for everyone listening, be sure to subscribe and tune into our next episode, in which we learn more about an endangered carnivorous bird species that lives in coastal mangrove habitats.
Now Marco what and I'm Rick Schwartz.
Thanks for listening. For more information about the San Diego Zoo and San Diego Zoo Safari Park, go to SDZWA dot org. Amazing Wildlife is a production of iHeartRadio. Our supervising producers are Nikkia Swinton and Dylan Fagan, and our sound designers are Sierra Spreen and Matt Russell. For more shows from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
