Vince Carter | Ep 38 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | #StayHome with SHOWTIME Basketball

Published May 18, 2020, 4:00 PM

The legendary Vince Carter joins Matt and Stephen for the 38th episode of All The Smoke. The Atlanta Hawks shooting guard looks back on his long and special NBA career including his infamous dunk contest win, playing with Jason Kidd and the Nets, and giving his 2003 All-Star game starting spot to MJ. He also tells stories of battling Allen Iverson, winning an olympics gold medal, and picks his top 5 favorite career dunks.

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On my high school team. We have five guys make the NBA. We had a county rocket gets some meta of basketball. Here are those who come before us, upon whose shoulders we stand. It's nothing that you can do to stop the competitive and there's just in the water. Welcome back to a special quarantine edition. We got a real special guys, what's up with your Brodie with the virtual handshake, I'm gonna tell you something that I never told nobody. I want to out the smoke. Welcome back to a special Quarantine edition of All the Smoke. Oh yeah, you all the day? Hey, it was a good morning, bro, it was a good morning. I'm ready to rock one to day. This is gonna be a good day. I had barbecue tried to yesterday and then had a leftover for this morning for Burrito's motherfucking breakfast Burrito. It was, Oh, I'm ready. What's up with you though? Bro? You're good? Yeah, I'm good. I'm good now you you didn't woke me up? You you're in a good movie. I'm a good movie. I'm ready to rock. You're in a good move and I'm good. I'm in a great move. Man. I like to welcome man a former teammate of mine Man the NBA iron Man twenty two years, half man, half amazing. My friend, her brother Vince Carter Man, welcome to the show. See what's something my mother Man. We finally tracked track this man there as a busy man, right's years a busy man man doing doing that. I can't stay off the golf course. Well I can't. I see, you know, I see that's how I see that saw it. It's crazy because I don't think people know that's really you on Instagram. You mean so because it trisp man, like you know, I know you're okay with it, but I mean you're out here posting these golf You're out here posting these golfing like you're on the golf course and very single day every day, you know, with with how to legal you know, here there everywhere, you gotta find something to kind of just to chill and get away from it. Also single digits, yeah, single digit boy, single dig nine Right now, we were trying to explain to Jack what what a nine hand? He didn't get it, but I just told him all he needs to do is keep the Joyce road and he can drive the golf cart and play to me, be good. When you say handicap, you know, I only know one handicap. I can't say. So we hit the ball down the fairway. We just you know, well we're good. Yeah. Yeah, so we get there. I see you wearing a Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Uh sure, I know you've been a fan for a long time. We played in Orleans on two thousand and ten. I mean we took a road trip down there and checked the game out. Y'all. Boys looking good these days though, because y'all was some asks back then. Yeah, it was some ship. But check. First of all, let's back up. I'm glad to hear you actually acknowledge that and say that because so doing the draft and prior to it, I put a post on Twitter like, okay, we up, we're getting ready to draft, and you see it's see some of these people come out. Man, Oh you're a bandwagon fab bit. No, bro, I've been with these boys. It's been riding for the bucks. Some dog, some dogs, some baby baby ship. Yeah, and I was. I mean I'm talking about like I was there, faithfully down. Yeah. Took me to a day we played. Yeah, we took along. We took that. We took that drive down from Orlando to Tampa Bay. So Brady, I mean, explosive offense, you get. Gronk wants to come back. I'm hearing rumors about a b I mean, what what's your I mean? You know Jack is a big cowboy. I want to come over. I heard Percy Harvin the Headaches have subsided a little bit. He wants to come back and funk with you guys. I mean it sounds like you guys are about to beat the ship out of Dallas. Thay, what do you think? Damn? First of all, we just gotta we gotta, we gotta handle business in our division. You know, the Saints have been a pain in the US for a while. The Falcons has has, you know, disappointed us. We have some disappointing games. So yeah, I like I like that that. I like I like Tampa Bay. Man. I had a blessing. You know. I was a big time Warren Staff fan. And the year the year we won the championship, they won the Super Bowl Championship. So I was able to party with them. Derek Brooks, yeah, d Smith, marn Steth, all of them, guys. Man, Hey, that was a wild team. Bro. When I tell you that Alam, yeah, yes, that was that was Gruden, right, that was the one Gruden popped up over there one the chip right, yeah, yeah, yeah, So tell the Raiders the Raiders and then ended up going to the Raiders right after that. Crazy. But anyway, tell us what's your present day. What's your home routine like with the wife and kids, and like you said, you get out in golf a little bit. What's what's the new nee for you? He said, Oh, man, you know you just robber room. Just you go go go and then midday get outside for share, do a little working out. Just trying to stay stay as young as possible. You know how it is. Man at this stage, Uh just waiting, just really waiting. And and I got I got two little putty mats in the house. Uh so I just do that with with little man because he's addicted, y'all think he loves he loves golf, bro, he's addicted to it. Two things he does is he loves his basketball and golfing that and I mean we have, like I got all these different little putty devices and hitting devices for him, so we can't get on the range. So he go shoot, you go shoot his basket and you're like, Dad, let's go put, let's go hit, And that's what we do. And that's all. That's how how old is that one? He's three now, so basically, yeah, he's he's he's all in, he's all can you imagine can you imagine us getting that kind of guidance after that? Y're like, golf is one of the things. If he picks it up young, he's gonna be a monster, like like Steff. I mean, like, look, how like how Steff is right now? With Yeah, he just he loves it. He loves watching. He wants me to video him so at night, bro, so at night. He literally asked to watch himself at night, the two things every night before the bad guarantee. He's like that, can I watch you dump? And can I watch him? He watches every dump video that's out there he has seen and he's three every night. It's crazy. So it's it's it's it's cool for me, especially during quarantine and you know, you retirements around the corner and you know you like to reflect and remember the good old days and trip down memory lane. So I take a trip down memory lane every night because thanks thanks to him, MM hmmm. So I mean, like you said, retirement is right around the corner. Where do you think the NBA is at? And is your career possibly over? I think it's done. You know, I'm gonna be all the way with Hunter, with you, I I do. I mean, I just think safety first. Just listen to the NBA. Sometimes you gotta read between the lines when they say it, but I think safeties first, and they're just gonna right ride this thing out until they figure out how to to make things safe for the playoffs and maybe we get three to five games and that's it. So I'm in my mind, retired vinces is here and that's why my golf game looks good right now. So you you feel like they'll do a quick three to five game for the playoff teams only for everybody. I think everybody get a chance to kind of uh to play. But I think it's just a warm up games so these guys don't get hurt for the playoffs because, as we know, the playoffs is money time. You know, that's where you that's where you make your name, that's where you make your money. That's you know what what legacies and and and great things are built. So if they want the best possible product on the court. So why not give these guys a chance to play and kind of get through the kings because we've been away from basketball for a month, and as you know, when you get hurt and come back, it's like you've been away from them. Just imagine, just imagine away from basketball and really can't work out like that. So these we're gonna need that talk to us. What you think it would be like if you guys were in playoff contention right now? How long do you feel like you guys would need to really what would be an adequate time? You're saying three to five games? Probably for the sake of time, we say, as players like we need to completely restart that injine, like you said, because you can stay in shape, but you can't simulate practice and you can't singulate games. For nothing, I don't care what no one says. So ideally, if if time was it wasn't uh you know, the main key, how long would you feel like players would need to get back ready to the playoffs? It depends on the player. Now you're talking about forty three year old me, I'm gonna need time. That's just straight facts. These young guys. You know, I'm with a bunch of young guys, so they bounced back and they can get prepared and kind of get your shape a little faster than than the O G. So I'm gonna need I'm gonna need that good three weeks to a month. And that's just being real, you know, just to kind of get your legs on it. I mean, if you want to put specially like you said, getting ready for the playoffs, So if you would be as good as possible, right, let me get let me get a month of basketball just like because just you struggle through the playoffs. I mean preseason games. You build up, you trying to go one ten in the first preseason game. It just don't work that way. Let's talk about your reflections on the class, the Hall of Fame class. You got KG, you got my boy TV, yeah, and you got Kobe Man. Talk about that. I've been blessed um to play against all of them, and I know what they could do first head and I hear both of y'all talk about it often about how special they are to the league. For these young guys. Now, there's always a debate, and the debate can go on and on and on about who's the best at what position. But I was like, it's tough for me to listen to some of the younger generation say who's the best one You've never seen t D Tim duncan do what he's done and energy exactly when you see you know, I played against I played against him in college. So I played with Cold in high school to to his last stage. You know what I'm saying, Uh, I played. I grew up with KG in high school. We came out at the same time. So these exacts, this is exactly. So I I salute these guys and it's well deserved, and they are what we had them touted to be. First ballot. Um. That's a cold class, right there, boy, cold class. Cold class. We've been asking people, you know, obviously with the loss of our brother Cobe, to kind of reflect and if they had any good stories or best stories or memories with Code. Can you share some one, you know, one story or a couple of stories that stand out in particular about Code. All right? So I remember Cod's first day on our au T So I played a U in Patterson with Tim Thomas and our squad. We were playing. I remember playing, Yeah, we're playing against Elton Brand and those and Cold comes comes to the squad, and the first couple of games he wouldn't started coming in doing these things still. And then big big being Pops came up, was like, hey, hey, just Cold, it's my young fellow. He deserves to be out there. He just as good as whatever. So I remember Co's first game playing the point, coming down, gets the half court, boom, pull up, choose an airball. We're like, bro, what's good. Step in a little bit, you know, all right, come down to that sept boom boom, one two at the half court. Next time on that like his confidence, he's like, bro, I can hit that. That's just nothing. That's my you know. It was just that mentality at that age, on his first second game playing with this team, it wouldn't like let me fit in. Tim Thomas is, Tim Thomas is number one in his class, top five. He liked I belong and we knew that. We knew who he was. Obviously we don't have social media, but you know who Kobe Bryant was. So fast forward to we get into like our third fourth game, were started beating people by fifty sixty points a game like because of what he did. He was our point guard at six six then we had Tim who could be a point guard at sixteen, and they're just throwing me lives all day like it was just it was just fun. And then I jumped forward to our professional career just playing against him. And obviously I've heard you both talk about him to exhaustion about his mentality, uh knowing knowing him and see him as a young kid, a high school kid, and then and see him in the pros and just how how that just increased to the next level. I'll tell you what, man, I want to talk about him after all of this, And I got the chance to talk to him um in New Jersey. We were playing the nets and we sat and talked. This is after retirement, just seeing and talk to him, and I was just like, man, you're good house our retirement. He was like, he's at peace, he's happier than he's ever been, so to no code as the killer that he he was, and he didn't give a shit about nobody. Like we we played. We we've had times we were about to go face to face and fight each other in in the game, but he just whatever, you know what, I'm saying, and that's you respect that. So you knew every time you played against him you had to bring him so but to talk to him afterwards and see like the change and he's like man like, he looked at life different and he was just all he wanted to do is for his kids and he enjoyed coaching. And that that helped me in my transition preparing for retirement because in the beginning of the year that a couple of games you came to the beginning of the year, I couldn't say retirement because I wasn't ready to accept it. I wasn't ready accepted. And then we played we played that had that conversation something like, bro, if if one of the dudes, who who one of the best to do it and just eat, sleep it lives, winning, can be at peace? Now I can. I can. I can say retirement because it's gonna be okay, because it's like, you know, twenty two years. But I've been doing this for straight every day. Appreciate what was that, bro? You know you know what I'm doing that little broadcast, but people don't understand, like, oh, you definitely gotta do that. But I'm saying people don't sound like that's just like when people do twenty years in jail, when they get out down, I don't know what to do. That's a fact. That's a fact. So playing basketball in the NBA twenty years years, bro, what else is it? Right? So that's that's that's why it was just so tough to admit or not admit, but just to say the word retired, because it's like, Okay, when that last game and I hain't I dropped them shoes for the last time, you walk back into what we consider the real world. You know what I'm saying. Now, it's like, all right, I don't have to go work out. That routine is old with what do I do? I got the opportunity to talk to him. I got the opportunity to talk to Dirt, two guys that that played twenty plus years and just kind of put me at ease understanding, like all right, bro, Yeah, it's it's a justment period, like you guys can say like it's an adjustment period, Like it's like I don't have to hoot no more and I'm gonna miss it. Like just because I said I want to retire, I am retired. That didn't means I don't miss it, and I think that's what I'm fighting with. So that's the kind of the thing. So I'm thankful that I have golf. It's something that's competitive sport for me. That that it's you got to work in that every day. You didn't know, like step away from you come back. Like I know when I get back, I ain't played in three weeks. So I get out there, I'm gonna be trash, you know what I'm saying. But like that that helps exactly. That helps me kind of except and and be be one with first of all, how it all ended. First of all, and then peace. Actually I am not to cut down to cut you off, but you you hit your last you hit your last shot of you know, and then the season has been canceled. Since are you at peace with with with the way? Then? I mean the longest who's who's the longest tenor? Is that you as a kareem? Who has them? Who's played the most shots? Ever? I did? I passed them this year, pass him this year. So uh, Kevin Willis was one of them who had Uh. It's like it's four people that day we're playing the Knicks and the game's going on whatever. Near the end of the game. We've heard about Gobert at halftime and didn't really didn't really click that this could possibly be the last game. So we get to the fourth quarter and you know, players started talking like, damn, this might be it for the year. They might shut it down, and you know, that might be it. So I'm like, bro, you know, yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. Get to about five minutes left in the game, and a couple of played. Dwayne Deaman was like, bro, it's your last game of your career. Bro, how you feel about it. I didn't even think about it. I was like, damn, it might be. So they started chatting, we want, we want Vince. I'm like, bro, now I'm chilling. I'm cool. I'm chilling. You know, game almost over, you know what or whatever. We were losing, and I'm like, bro, it's all good. You know. I'm like, they're gonna shut it down for a couple of weeks. Games come back, get down to the last minute and a half and they started chatting again then and in the LP he looked at me. He was like, yeah, go on end and that and and that. That second bro, it just hit me like this might be it for real. All right, I'm gonna go because I didn't want to go. I wasn't going, and then I was like, all right, I'm gonna go. And as I checked in and walked out there, it was just like chills. Bro, It's just like that. You know, you asked You asked me at the beginning of the season. You asked me at All Star Break, like, what's the ending gonna feel like? What's your last game gonna feel like? I don't know, I don't know how bad we all we all handled different. And my second to last home game would have been at Toronto, so that had been a third to last game this season, you know, obviously our last game at home against Cleveland. So I'm I'm I'm like, bro, I don't know how I'm a handle that. So I go out there in the game and I was like, bro, just in case, just in case, this is your last game, fire off, shoot it like you've done it before and and I've been already sitting there for two so so they were like, yeah, you want to go for dogs, and yeah, no, I want to make the last So I was just like, hey, lie that three up and shoot it. Shooting with confidence, and it was like it was a refreshing and it's like a satisfaction, Uh, just to see that ball go in, you know. I was just like, thank god that went in. And you know, you deal with it, and we get in the locker room in the back, reality kind of hit like I was like, this is it, bro, Like it's something just holding this is it, And I'm cool with it. You know, I appreciate everybody out there like, man, this is not the way that you should you should end your career. And I agree. I agree. It's not the storybook anding, but everything in life not a storybook ad and you learn to deal with it. And I've dealt with it. I'm cool at this point. Talk to us about playing across the span of four decades like that sounds crazy as hell. It's crazy because you know, I look at like I'm watching you know, the Last Dance, bro, and like we're all doing and I look at all the players that's told the court at that time, and I was like, bro, I played against every day on one of all of them, all of them, every last one of them. You know. So I just I'm thankful. I've seen allegal defense change. I've seen the zone implemented. I've seen the game get faster, you know. I remember the East coast was shoot that you know about this the east, the east was physical, the West was up Temple. That's how it was. And now you look at that's just how it is everywhere, you know what I'm saying. So it's just it's just crazy just to kind of see how time change and just lead getting younger and younger. I'm playing against players that I'm I'm older than you know, a teammate, trades trades that, you know what I'm saying. I'm playing against former teammates kids. Dell Curry Deil Curry was my teammate, playing against his son. Yeah, yeah, you know what I'm saying, Like it's this stuff like that, like I've been around that. I'm It's just so crazy and I'm thankful, man, I'm thankful for that, for that, you know, for the opportunity and to still play this game. And that's the every year I come in, it's like, Okay, I might not jump higher than everybody and whatever, but I know the but you know, I just I just that's just it's just like every time I saw you, what's one of the things. I said to you that every time, I'm trying to hold it down for the you know that same time when I saw you, I was like, you know, it's just I know how how playing against y'all back in the day and how we loved it and competed against each other. Like I hate playing against both of y'all. That's just what it was. But it made for great competition. And obviously the longer you play and the game has changed, we know that, and it ain't like it used to be. You know, I hated both of y'all motherucker's, But I tell you what, you appreciated. You appreciate the competition, and it took playoffs to the next level. You remember, remember our battles when you play with but y'all swept us in our last man, y'all swept us. I was ill look at that like that was the one that was like that was that was the one for me because the other games was battles. They're saying like y'all dominated us. Y'all ship ship out of y'all, ain't you know we you know, but like that, That's what I'm saying. That's the beauty about it because I remember Matt, I'm gonna take you back speaking to Orlando. So that year, you remember playing Memphis and Matt about to get me thrown up because like it's just like Matt's energy. We know how it is. And he was about to get into with the big fellow from Memphis at the time to be was about to whip his big ass to be from from Yukon. So he pushing, he started pushing everybody. Well, but I watched that a couple of days ago, was like many just then, but we're just about to get exacted, just because like it's just it's just it's just a different game. And I just love, like and I really had appreciation for playing against both of you obviously playing two steps with Matt, you know, and I want to talk about quick like yeah, just you know, the love and and for the game. And you remember we had probably different teammates and we're depleted. People don't understand like how many people got hurt, how many people came to our team, Like who's it? Like maybe me, you and maybe two other people are the only ones who made it the whole season. Beginning of the season that was outside of that, we're bringing guys coming in at ten days start starting in playoff games, you know, and I remember coaches like you guys, you know if you want to chill, you know, chilling and not play or whatever. I'm like, hell now, like just just ain't that, you know. So it just was appreciation how how the league is now and what we've been a part of so over four decades. It's like, Bro, I've seen it all. I've seen a change, and you know, it's just it's been. It's been. It's been fun. Did it was great? I remember Pop tell me you can't bring a spoon to a knife fight. When we just playing San Antonio in the first round, Bro, we battled our ass off. We just didn't have yeah, you know, I mean we just didn't have enough. And that's that's what it was. It's like the pride like like that's and that's that's why I'm playing. Why I am. But I want to play. I want to whoot like I want to earn it. I want to earn it, Like if if we were to beat the Spurs, Bro with that group, come on, man, I want to wear like me I came from the error of you. You gotta earn it, bro, you gotta earn it, like I don't want to give it to me, Like I just I appreciate it, but now I want to go out there and earn it. That's why I'm still playing. That's why I wanted to play. And yeah, I wanted to play ball, like yeah, I didn't get a championship. I wanted one, just like every other player, you know what I'm saying. But it didn't happen that way. But at the same time, I wasn't sacrificing just me as a person like who lives. Yeah, I love the game too much to just sit there like and at the end of the day that I hold that ring up, it's cool, like, oh he got his dream, But did I earn it because I said that, I just that's just not me and and and it ain't no knocking to nobody. It's just came from a different error. I don't want even bring home. I don't count MU championship and state. I appreciate the opportunity, but blah blah. But like, to me, I've earned everything like that that I just had the best fucking seat in the house to watch an amazing team winning championships. To me, that should don't even him, like I appreciate the opportunity. I still got to get that ship from Raymond. Shout out Raymond. I told Hi, I'm gonna come. I'm gonna come to a game this year and pick it up. But I'm the same way man, like I was, like, you know, you pick it up at all. That's crazy, that's crazy. But I'm gonna grab but I'll tell you. But I'll tell you. But I say this, if they asked forty five year old events, which two years away, forty five year events, if you would love to come for our team and be a mentor, that's different, you know. But when I when I know I can still compete against these guys, That's why I wanted to play. You know. I said, I'm gonna play big minutes or whatever. But I still felt like I could give something. I can give something the game, and I could do work in the games too. Like when I feel like maybe the game has passed, but y'all still want to give you some monody to play, that's different. That's a different story. But it's time. I know when it's time, and I don't want to overstate my world. Talk to us a little bit about to you personally to Vince Carter, what was your favorite era to play in for sure, like late nineties early two thousand's. I mean, that's that's what it was. You earned your keys. So that goes back on what I was just saying. You had to you keep watching the Last Dance and just watching how the Bad Boys was just destroying MJ through the lane. It's just like that's just what it was. That just you understood it made you tough mentally and physically. When I was able to have my own team and win or lose, That's just what it was. That's what I wanted. I had to go through Indiana at the time to Pistons Cleveland, when you know you had to go through, That's what it was. Yeah, you're gonna get back last like oh he can't do it? Like all right, well running back next year. That's just what it was. And I enjoyed playing back in the air. I learned a lot. It made me mentally and physically tough and able to just persevere through anything because, like I tell you, back back in the day, bro like for all the dunk that I was trying to do and do it like we see the dunks with that man, there were sometimes when I used to get fucked up. It was it's just like yo, y'all, fella, no, but you ain't about to keep flying up here and think it's all good because you were people. You were sucking people like Ego up for like a couple of years. Like because the way you were dunking on motherfucker's when you first came in. Like I still get chills thinking about some of your dunks your first couple of years in Toronto. It's just like you would really embarrassed motherfucker. So I can only imagine how hard that I care put you right because they wanted to bro you. That ship was crazy. Well we'll get to it at that point. But like the what the ship you used to do a little bit about night tonight. Every night it was a battle. You're going against Prime Code Prime, Paul Pierce, uh T mac uh we on our test and Jack in Indiana. You know what I mean. There was every single night it was a battle at that two or three position to speak to the competition at that time as well. And that's what it was like. It was like, let's say you had to earn your keys. You didn't know any other way. It wasn't like, oh yeah, we gotta do it. Obviously, you hope through the draft and create agency, you form your team, But you know, I wanted to I want to beat those guys. I wanted to beat the best. I wanted to compete against the best. And that's how you know where you stand in your career. I want something I lost, and and that's just what it was and how it goes. But I wouldn't have it any other way. The last dance, we've touched on it a little bit. What is it like for you, because I think today we get spoiled the accessibility that fans have due to social media. You know, I think MJ was the one superstar and we're all, you know, fans and respect MJ. We never got to see the other side of Mike. We saw game Mike. We saw Mike selling shoes and we just see nothing else. We've seen the crying Jordan's face. You know, that was it, you know what I mean. So to be able to get there behind the scenes and almost like a social media look at what the Bulls are going through back then in the late nineties and in their runs. What are your thoughts on that? So It's crazy because for those who didn't play against them or wasn't far like we're we're pretty much close to to to MJ's retirement him playing, so we were right around that area that error. But for those who only hear about Mike's worth that work ethic, how much of an asshole he was? Uh? And all he cared about women? You know, we don't We saw that with Cole, but they didn't see it with Mike, and you know, and and and you people didn't know he was just like all right, you know, he the greatest, but all right, that's why I think what younger generations kind of in them, but like, all right, he was cool, but exactly exactly, but what what the bottom was so special? Bro? You watch that now when people ask this these questions about who's the greatest and blah blah blah, I'm like, what rules are we using? Because if you put some of the players and start u stuff today in that error with hand checking and the physicality and what is considered a flavor, now, I don't care how good it is right now, it's a different different Somebody holding on your shots the whole way it's legal, and when you run through the paint and you can get bumped. It's different. And that's my argument with people. It's like, it ain't no disrespect to anybody because they're all great. You're gonna argue back and forth and everybody's gonna have their opinion. What I'm saying, which rules are we using? Because when you say, if you say we're using today's rules, okay, well didn't take Michael Jordan's who's batter than bruising getting fucked up every time he was running around off the screen through the paint and put them in the rules today A And that's my argument, And it's no disrespect to any of these guys, then that's my point. Whatever you say, you're gonna ruffle feathers and that's cool. But I got the opportunity to play against Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Lebron James, so I've got to see all of them in their element. Not obviously I didn't played against Pride Mike, but Mike was pretty damn good that points. And fourth, yeah, where do you put those sir? You got a chance to play against all those three in your from your opinion, where do you put Mike, Kobe and m J. I gotta go with m J. See, it's hard for me to pick current players and put them against the past because I'm still playing one and I'm never gonna give them that advantage. That's just what it is until I'm done. But too, it's just what it is. I mean, m m J. Okay, all right, I'm gonna breaking down like this, how many times m J went to the finals? Please anybody? Six times? And one every time? Okay, So he's on the feast, so you don't know what it's like to lose in the finals. He can say undefeated. If you can say that, that's number one right there. But at the same time, I have to give lebronest problems. That man went to the NBA finals eight straight nine times. Correct, Incredible, incredible, And so I say this, and when you go that many times, you're gonna lose. That's that's three you're gonna That's just that's just how it goes. And and and we're in the world where numbers matter, and said, look at his winning records. How many times to cold go six or seven? Seven? Yeah, Look, that's you know people always talking about their winning percentage. Well, that's the time to talk about winning percentage. That's that's and that's why, that's why I say it. But you know, it depends on what you're talking about the greatest one of the greatest athletes to play this game, James. See, I can have that conversation with you. I can had that conversation with you because you your future Hall of Fame and you didn't played the game a long time and we didn't have a lot of bags. We've been in the game. But when it's people that really don't understand the game, I just leave it at they're all on Goat Island and none of us is invited. I'm gonna leave it a dead no. And you know what, that's well said. That's well said, And that's what I said, cause you're gonna always rough for feathers if you're died by bron fan, you think it's disrespect when you say otherwise about him, Code and and and Mike. So that that's just it's gonna be an ongoing battle because unless they ever played against each other, just imagine them playing against each other. Though, So for the record, you got m J Code, but then lebron Ken Lebron and your in your opinion with Lebron's maybe two three years left, maybe four? Can does he have an opportunity in your mind? Possibly jump code? He has an opportunity, I mean, and it's gonna it's just gonna be based off of what he gets done. But I can said, uh, he gets to the finals again, I mean, you're just gonna give him more credit now ten times in the fight, like just insane. He got to the finals double did you? And you know it's just it's just let's I just say to people, let's just wait and see, wait until they're all when it's all set and done, then it's fair to have a real debate. Because we're talking about MJ and those they can't score any more points. That's it. They can't score any more point, so they've they've already done what they had to do. Let's let let's see what Lebron does and how it all plays out and go from there. See, Jack and I feel the same. We feel covies to Lebron is three and to me in my opinion, which don't mean ship, I'm just saying, if Lebron is able to take a third franchise to the finals and win a championship with three different teams. That's when I think you saw something jumps code. Yeah, you know what I mean. But to me, it's crazy, and you made a good point. It's not disrespecting code, MJ Mike. If you like one and you and you rank them, everyone wants to put one a verse together like only one can be there, only this can be that. And if you like Mike, you hate Code. If you love bron you know you hate And it's not like that, you know, especially for those who play. It's crazy because some of the people have an opinion. Everyone has a penny now and don't don't who never played? Never played? And I got motherfucker's presenting the motherfucker to have an opinion and get paid for their opinion never played. I mean, so when you hear people like Skip Bayless saying, Scottie Pippot isn't one of the greatest, man, shut the funk up with that ship man, Scottie. Do you know what I mean? So that kind of stuff really bothers me because like you don't know what it's like to go pit with it. You mean, you know, a pit with this, Skip people people listen to that. People listening to man, they ride for it. Like, come on, man, like, don't disrespect people like that because one, you've never been in their shoes. I understand you get paid for it, but have some respect, man like, straight up, I'd rather you had that opinion to say. But hey, I've never played a game, so I'm not you know what it's like, alright, I value That's all. That's my only beef with with like people like that. Who if you haven't played in the NBA game, Hey, one NBA game, you would not understand like what it's like. Like point I just it's just like you can study it, you can be a junkie, you can watch all the film you want, but you still never they don't know what it's like. But you still don't know what it's like to come off for a pick and roll and see a double team and know how to read it react with quick. You don't know that. You don't know what it's like to get fifteen points scored on you straight and how you have to bounce back or you know, or missing a couple of shots. And then hearing people saying, well, you don't know that. You don't know what it's like, like what these dudes had to go through. They were rock stars, and he can't praise Magic. You can't praise Magic and not praise pimp. He shut him down on the finals, Like Magic is one of the best ever. You know what it takes to shut down somebody in the finals. Come on and Magic, get that. Come on, man, That's what I'm saying. Like crazy wants to find out that the pip with with all that being said that he was the hundred and twenty second hundred a second, he was Robertson. He was Robertson. But Robertson is making and I don't want to miss cod, but I think he's making somewhere between nine and twelve million though, you know what I mean. And he could have hit the house and he was in the kitchen. He shoots a bas the free throw line. Who does that? But it's a different game, different games. It's a different game free all in my life. And that's crazy. That's that's what it is. I mean, that's that's the that's the changes of the of the error and how much money is out there now to be made. Brother, Like you just like just think if we could, if they could pull up a number in your career, what the salary cap looks like then and what it looks like now. It's it's crazy close. So it's so much money available. But I may I ask you one question real quick? What does Lebron have to do to be in your opinions that y'all think MJ's What does he have to do within his time left to become me? I say it is not much. I say, win two championships in l A. That's a lot. When he passed code too, we're talking about not you can have a conversation with him and m J. A conversation. Okay, does does scoring if anything to do with it? Now? You know what it's not to me because people don't give Antoine Jamison points he got with twenty thousand points. I mean, don't give him props he got twenty thousand. But I'm saying what I'm saying now he becomes number one is all time and scoring? Does that matter? I mean, but let me two facts. Okay, Now that definitely asked for Evince, because you also gotta keep in mind, Braun is the only one we're talking about to top ten and assists, so he might be top five by the time he's finished playing number one or number two and scoring and then won two more titles. That's when, to me you could start talking about he is the greatest of all time, no matter what is right. But you got that count to Matt how many years more he played in the So m J is what played fifteen years? Uh? Number five and all time scoring swards Kareem, Karl Malone, Lebron, Kobe, Mike Braun is somewhere forty Yeah, sure, if I'm not mistaken. Giver takes. So that would be probably about twelve hundred points a year for the next four years to possibly catch Kareem. They said this year in sixty games, he already had what fift hundred points, So four more years at Lebron averaging possibly around twenty two points a game to catch Kareem. I don't see that being far fetched. I think it all depends on its supporting cast, you know. And you know, in the beginning he was talking about how he was trying to feature a d to be a star and all of these things. So that's not saying he still won't average five points a game, but you know, it depends on how loaded, if you would his team could be down the line to take some of the workload off of him what he's been doing off of his career. So I mean it's a lot, it's just one lot of one is so you made a great point, So let's let him finish. There's a chance. To me if Jack made a great point, I think two chips puts him definitely in the same conversation as Mike. And then you look at his historical context and his his final numbers. There's a chance for for Broad to be the greatest of all time man, and people don't even if you don't look at it, Even if he doesn't finish number one in scoring, even if he's a couple of thousand away from number one, I mean he would have three champions with three different organizations, you know. So it's there's a lot to look at. But moving ahead, I tell people, you're one of the greatest fucking purest athletes I've ever seen. You shoot jump jump shots from half court like they're nothing. You shoot left handed three, it's like anohing. You could throw football sixty yards. You golf like there's nothing you can't do. Tell us where that all that athleticism came from. At an early age, it's the water Florida kid that Florida water Man. You know, I tell anything, bro. I give mom some props though, because she was one of those kids at first. You know, I just love obviously football was but I especially growing up, you know, coming from Florida, which is a football state. So I played football and and and that was a quarterback and the receiver. But I tell you one thing, She's like, bro, try try. Don't be afraid to try anything. I played volleyball. You know it's a bad and uh you know, pink Paula is one of my favorite sports. Like only these things. I wasn't afraid to try anything and just was curious about it, and you know, just tended to pick pick things up rather quickly and just because I was curious about it. So I was lucky people. Yeah, volleyball. And I did that as a as a joke with my boys because we walked by the gym one day going to food around the gym. Like volleyball, I was like, I bet you won't go I bet you'll go in there and try out. I ended up playing three years, had never played before, never played before, and I got junior year. That's crazy. I mean, motherfucker, you're jumping and getting your waist above the nets, spiking that btch on everyone's whole entire school. I can only imagine. So my my sedior year, I played like two or three games because I had, you know, the slowdown with all this stuff I was doing, because everything overlap. I played two games. My last game, bro, Uh, they threw me a set from out the back row. I hit the ball and this kid who was in the back row waiting to pass the back and hit him and split his glasses. But because I was you know, like I said, I used getting over the net. So they used to set it up as high as I could just to see if I could just in front of the first and hit it down into the front line. That was that was the challenge for me. You know, as far as in high school, I jumped higher, Bro, I can touch seeing that ship. I could touch the top of the backboard in high school. Man, my senior year. In my freshman year of college is when I was jumping my high school, I could touch the top of the backboard. Just fucking insane. We couldn't even call it. Could you imagine seeing this? You couldn't call Vince no band nerd. Could you think Van I mean the historical context of a band is they're kind of like, you know, they're a little different. Vince out here doing the ship during the football season, the band, and then motherfucker touching the top of the backboard during basketball season, like what the fun like two months later? I don't know, Man was fun. Real niggas. Real niggas didn't do bad cause you have to learn how to read music. Yeah, you're right, You're right. And I started that at sixth grade, so my step dad at the time. It was a band direct. So band was always a part of me, and music saw it was a part of me, you know. So that's why I have a passion for music. I mean, I got a little set up right here. Can music still Yeah, Yeah, that's dope. I can record that. This motherfucker do anything. Brother way, I saw like you don't get to see whatever you're ready, I can record. I wasn't gonna say no, but I got I got it. Uh, you all got a mixtape coming out. But what I was saying is to see Vincent practice. And obviously I didn't catch early early Vincent and you know, the late nineties, early two thousand, but to see you in practice when we played together, like some of the effortless ship you would do is just like what the fuck like in like just your skill and you're one of the most skilled people to me to that's aver touch thing. And I've been we both all been blessed to play with a lot of talent to people, but I haven't seen just pure skill like you have, man, and the ship is the first step. His first step was unreal. No, I'm excited about this man like that, you know, because of back in the day's games so physicals, like you can't you can't just play bulletball all the time after while, you know, you got lodged on while you got j O back there blocking shots. But your first step matter. I had to learn that, like sometimes like you know what, dude hits you like, oh no, you know, let's let's play this game. And then after a while I was like, all right, I need to outquick you because back then you you had two big men. You had Junk and Robinson. You know what I'm saying. You had the Davis boys, Davis boy Smith, you know what I'm saying, Like you know j O, Jeff Foster, Scott Scott Jeff, you know what I'm saying like you had big men, so you had to learn how to have a first step, and I learned once I kind of got a step on you and you beside me. In my mind, you weren't will be able to jump me unless you met me at the room and you just got looking. Some people match you at the room, but you just went up a little little last minute. So for all the times that I got my dunk block, that helped me because I learned, I always knew I could hang in the air. And that's why obviously you and practice. You see, I used to just win around and do just stupid stuff. Hanging up there like that was just my mentality, like okay, sometimes I want to jump high to you, and it used to be fun for me. That's why I did a lot of one one hand shots just because it used to be fun for me to hang up there because you thought she was gonna block it, and that used to be fun. Yeah, big gass hand so that you can hold the ball, move it, trained it to the side, dunked that ship. So it's that's why it was easy to kind of dump on a lot of the big man like my Tumbo and Zoe like when I did the dunk on Zoe. If I don't have big hands, I wouldn't be able to move it that far like that. You know that ship was sick, very decorated. High school career state champion McDonald's All American, recruited by pretty much obviously every school in the country. Who were your final couple choices and what made you pick North Carolina over everybody else? I had Duke Carolina Florida Florida State, and I had Kansas and Kentucky initially. Then I dropped Kentucky, then Kansas. I figured if I go to Kansas, I can go to Carolina because Roy Williams was there at the time and it was the same. Plus he had already signed Paul Pierce. Once he signed Paul Pierce, I was like uh. And then Ron Mercy, I was like, nah, so Rob Mercer who was number one. Mercer was a killer and so it was exactly shoot in high school too, bro like he was. So he went to Kentucky. So I was like, nah, they already had Anto a Walker and them over there, so it was like that's done deal. And then once I took my visit to Carolina, I was sold. I knew I had the opportunity to start and playing in Antoine. Who you know who was shoot my junior year. He was number one playing in the country before KG and and and and Ron Mercer took over. I had Stephan Marberry who who ended up going to Georgia Tech. Billips McCoy a shout out, Army Darnlod's pass is crazy. They needed you at Kentucky, uh that year because I was We played Kentucky when I was okay in ninety six, Bro, they won it. No, we played him in preseason and beat him by Twinny school team. I need footage, Jack, I don't believe it. We gotta, Matt. You know, my brain don't work like that. I can't remember that far back. I had to see footage to remember. Yeah, I need funnage. It's like you called me. This is my first called me on my football ship. Tell my homeboy sent me some football footage. I'm like, yeah, look at that. I was going to North Carolina. Like obviously, with you being someone that was very similar to Jordan's, the way you attack, the way you dunk, did that play anything into going to North Carolina at all? The tradition of it obviously the tradition. But I'm gonna tell you what I took my visit. I was sold, like you walking out of and you just look at the history of the banners one and then just up the jerseys up there obviously Jordan's Worthy, Brad Doherty, Phil Ford. I mean, it's a laundry list of players. But Phil, yeah, exactly so. So when I when I walked in there the first time, he was just like, so I got there that summer when I took my visit, We're playing pick up and who's who's in there? Just imagine. So let me just say my freshman year, it could have been Jeff McGinnis at the point I probably played the two. Stack would have played the three Antoine, Jameson would have played the four Rashi would have been the five Goodness, which Shaman Williams who ended up who played pro Dr Labor, who played real quick plus an attitude, didn't you? But he was like, the next that's my class next year, like it used Stackhouse for She's Jeff leguinnis Jameson as a starting group sham, Yes, sir, you know what I'm saying. So just just walking into pick like on my visit, I was like, bro, just the NBA right here, everybody, every Carolina guy who made it to the NBA was was there, MJ Worthy, you name it. I'm in here, playing in high school of playing against these guys. We already knew Stack and she was going, bro, and I'm holding my own against them. I was like, Bro, this is what I need to be. You know what I'm saying. So it's and then when I get there, it's just like now you're in it with some of the best players, and then here comes the same thing. You walk here, m J give me, give me these four, give me these four walk on and everybody, you know what I'm saying, like like this, It's just that's that's what it was. So it College was was fun, man. It was just I learned a lot and I didn't put any pressure. I was like, yeah, man, I played, I'm playing here, and it's every but we looked at it like Dean smith Man, just like I played for Dean Smith So it was kind of like, man, I'm playing for this man. Yeah, this man got a dome named after him and he was alive and still coaching. So it's exactly. So I played for a legendary coach, So it wasn't the pressure of kind of following the footsteps for MJ. It was always like everybody knew who Dee Dean Smith was, so you got to hold you on for him. With the current climate of today, and you just saw U c L a five star recruit d commit and it's going to the G League? Can I is it? Is it good? Safe to say, Vince, you had a blast in college like I had a last l A blast wasn't change it for the world, you know, wouldn't change for the world, just like you mentioned all those people you said, So we're in l A. My freshman coming in is the ninety eight lockout. So we got Paul Pierced up there, Kobe Shack, jermaineo Need like you name them. I'm seventeen eighteen coming into this at U c L A like hole, like when you get a great taste of what that that next level that other sizes like. And that ship was incredible, like a young Ricky Davis man like, that ship was a blast. But Barry Baron Baron doing Barry bar it was our teammate then that ship was incredible. But those summers are what got me and and you know, all my college teammates that had success in the pros ready for the Pros because it was those summer games. Like you said, you guys had your Carolina pickups. Those U l A pickups were legendary. But I get back to the fact that the college was such an amazing time for me, you know what I mean. Obviously the money's different, circumstances are different now, but I wouldn't trade my experience and my friends and what I learned and what I meant. I don't know if I could trade that for five hundred thousand. Hey watch this, I'm gonna tell you something crazy. And you know, I didn't think I was good enough to do it. So my year, obviously KG came out and went pro out of high school. There was a small rumor that I could possibly go pro out of high school. First of all, I didn't think I was good enough, so I was like breadful, what like, you know, I didn't I didn't think so it's just funny the mentality at the time. And then when I got there, I was like, well, I made the right decision. And even when I got got I came out my junior because I did three years of college, and you know, it was the best three years. And after my freshman year, I was like bro, and I wasn't playing what it was in and out things didn't look great. I was just like I made the right decision, and it was still whispers like could he? Could he? And then after after my junior year, we made to the Final four. Back to back years. I had two great uh n c A tournament UH showings that played with average like one my junior didn't. I'm still kind of faking hesitating, like until I found out I can go top five, and I was like, all right, guys, let's be real, I gotta do it. But you had some dope runs like you mentioned back to back final four appearances ninety nine. You guys lost to Mike Bibbie in Arizona. Every time I see him and Jason Terry hold On, hold On, hold on, sposed to Jack was supposed to be here recruiting class. I was. I was when you like when you're talking about pick up Mike Dickinson, Miles Simon, Jason, Mike Bibby. So I was there the whole person Mester not in passing test. So I got kicked off. But I was supposed to be in that game. Dog that it would have been crazy, was that? Yeah? Adjact to that Arizona line if that would have been sick A J. Bramlett. Yeah, that they were cold, like we should have beat them though we had him beat in the first half and just Phillip part that kid by the name of Mike Bibby just like yeah. And then then all of a sudden, you know, Washington play against Kentucky in the finals, like he cold. Yeah, And I don't understand like Jay Terry was killing, bawling bro like killing man. He he used to give us the blues? Who was that? U? C? L A? Jason Terry was a sucking killer. He was killing louse Mike Dickerson like they had that. That dude had to the quickst first step I've ever seen Mike Dickerson. Yes, but he strong too. People gonna listen to this to be like who Mike who? Look him up? Man? But he was unbelievable. He had back injuries right when he got to the league. Is that would slowed him down? It was a neat didn't had like a growing injury as well, Like it was growing. Yeah, it wasn't that's what put Michael is growing Michaels nice. Yeah. So then then in the next year, losing to Utah was at Keith Van Horne's horn or Andre Mill just left. Andre Miller gave us a triple. Andre Miller too, we're talking about him. Shot Miller was he was Miller. He was built like he was he was built in the league like, yeah, he he was smart back then. He knew the game like Miller. It's crazy. You look at their team and adn't no disrespect, But he was looking at me like, bro, he ain't got enough. He got at Utah on top of it. Hell noah, yeah, you ain't got enough. Him and Ricky Jared's though, masterminds master Jared's masterminds. Somebody better though, he made anybody better than he was. He was so smart, man, he knew the game, bro, Like obviously who he is, who he was in the NBA. He was like that in in college as well. Draft night pick, trading for your teammate from the Warriors to the Raptors Antoine Jamison swap. What was that? Like? It's crazy how how the whole experience went down? Like so when when he got drafted prior to it. So I'm working out in the summer um and the Raptors were out there. They're like, hey, you might as well come work out for us because if you're available, we're gonna draft. I'm like, all right, because I ain't know nothing about Canada and never been outside. You know, the do the US for basketball, That's that's not true. I've been to Germany for the but I've never been to Canada, so I didn't know what was going on. So I was like, all right, cool, so I go there. I had a terrible experience as far as like my flight was delayed, my room got canceled, my room got canceled. When I got there the next day. When they put me, they put me in another hotel. My room services two hours late that night. Got there the next day, the ball kid forgot my my practice gear. Uh, so I got staying there. He's like, oh man, so that was my practice. My singing started to two hours later and I was by myself. But they said I had a great workout, so I worked out toward never worked out for him. So they say, hey, fourth pick you, we're gonna get you. Well. Draft night comes and I'm like, okay, cool, old Candy goes one baby goes to all right, Because I worked out for Vancouver and they already made it clear to say, we just want to see you work out, but we're either gonna get Oliver Candy a bit, so I knew that the Clippers didn't didn't even invite me to like we were getting this baby or a little Candy Denver. I had a good workout there, but they took Racelet friends exactly. So four comes out. I was like, oh, Toronto. I was like, oh, I told my I was like, oh, this is it right here? Man, They said Antoine James said. I was like, and Twine looked at me. But because he never worked out for but we didn't know. Obviously they were working on a deal. Obviously when it happened that, uh, Golden State was trying to keep Twine from going to Dallas, so obviously they said they'll take him. And then I get drafted by Golden States. So I'm like, okay, okay, I'm out West, go to stay cool whatever whatever. And as soon as I get up on the stage, I shook David Hits David Stirr's hand and he said, hold up, man, it's about to be a trade. I'm like, damn, get treated already. So as we went back, this is no bro. As I was walking up the steps, Town is at the side of the steps, you know, right before as soon as you get drafted, you gonna do your interview. Trying to sit in there, He's like he's trying to say. He whispering something like what what like's you know? First of all, I ain't trying to knew. Yeah, I'm walking up the steps. I ain't trying to fall, so I ain't paying attention to all that he's talking. I'm like, what what what? Okay, hold on, let me take this picture. He was telling me, bro were about to get traded for each other. Yeah, that's crazy. So David sturns, like, it's about to be trade. Suff we gotta trade. The Toronto ratchors have traded Vince Card and Twine Jamison for Vince Card blah blah blah and for money. I'm like what he's like food, That's what I was trying to tell you, And that's how I got That's how I got introduced to the business. It's like that. So it's like a business, like said the business Candy was Little Candy was one, Baby was two, The Friends was three, Jamison was four. You were five. Tractor trailer arresting piece was six. Uh. Jason Williams will shout out bubbs, Larry Hughes eight, Dirk new Whiskey nine, Paul, Paul was pissed TiO he went tin, Yes, he was. Paul was he was We forget your boy. Charlet Lewis, who was coming out of high school. Second round, second round, y, Yeah, sat in the green he was. I don't mean nothing about that draft because now you go to park parks and when people shoot at balls, you hear them say on what candy like when they do something stupid on the court. So he was the number one pick, So don't even worry about that. That is mean nothing. You number one pick was terrible. That was crazy. It was crazy leading up to it, like nobody watched specific play. Yeah if you're laughing and sack it, but you didn't know, didn't know much about it, Like okay, he's six ten seven feet but okay, but I never see Anyboddy play. So number one and leave it, leave it to the old clippers, leave it to the so when so when you got to Toronto. What was that like, I mean, when you know being a rookie after the trade, you know what I mean? You said the workout didn't go good, so going there actually getting ready to play where you optimistic about it about it being better. So watch how this story happened. My junior year is when I found out Team back was my cousin. So he comes out and he goes to the draft and he's coming in the workout and pick up and he's like, hey, bro, like nobody would let him to use his locker. Now, we played you ball together all right, so I knew he was on this younger team. I was on the big on the older team. So we used to watch to the play. Never knew we were cousins. Okay, we're playing pickup and Carolina all weeks. I said, hey, but you can use my locker whatever story stuff, uh, all week because I knew him from back in the crib all right. On on Thursday, he's like, b I ain't gonna be here Friday. On Friday, I'm said, he I ain't gonna be on Friday because I'm going for a family union. Alright, cool, whatever, I see you next week and you get back just like that. I wasn't going because I was in school. You know what I'm saying. I was back in school playing pick up. He sits at the table with my grandmother. They get to talk and she's like, oh, so you went to school in North Carolina. She's like, my grandson plays college ball. And he's like, oh for real. She's like, Vince Carter. I get a call from on my grandmother, So what's up? Cuse? What's up? Cause? Man? Who the hell is this? This mac man? This team mat what's up cause? And that's how we found out with my cousin. So all season he called me the you need to keep dominating, bro, so you can get drafted high. I won'ta make sure they come. They're gonna raft. You're gonna make sure they draft you like this is this new you know whatever? Literally, when I got drafted, I go to the back room after I got traded, phone rings. Who is it? I told you? Because I told you she could like And that's why it was so so to answer your question. Walking into my first year, I was cool. I got family. I'm playing with family. So he's gonna tell me the ropes. He knows what it's like. To be a rookie, and he knows what it'd be like to be a rookie and struggle. Yeah, so it was easy to walk into. And then obviously we bring Charles Oakley in and my second day of training camp, yes, my second day of training camp. He comes in. He puts his arm around you. He said, I got you. I'm gonna teach you to leave listen to me. So uh yeah, but what do you say to that? No, chill, I got, yes, sir, Yes, sir, that's what it was. How do you like your coffee? Yeah? Carry? Carry back right here? Okay, cool? I got so thank you. Back to the last dance win they showed Scott yeah, bro that I was like, oh, snap, you've been doing this since eighty six, eighty seven. Yeah, that was me, that same thing. So ever since then, I was like, yo, y'all, see what happened to pick back then? That is me, bro, That's what. But like I knew I was in good hands. And to this day when I see Opra, he still treat me like a rookie, you know, heavy, old alligator hands, just rough, like every time, like he beat on your life. Right, I'm like, bro, I'm not a rookie no more. But it's good, sir, You're good. He made the game easy for me. Man. He taught me because he played with m J. So he got to see his preparation. You know. I played with Doug Christie, who played with Magic. I played with Deep Brown who played with Bird. I played with Antonio Davis, who played with Reggie Miller. So I had guys on my team played real rates, right, he played with greatness, and they taught me how to how to handle myself. You know, with all the attention that was coming in, it made the game easy for me. A lot of people talking about open theyn't never see the other side. You know what I'm saying, like, is one of those guys. They might see all that with Scott the people, but I guarantee you when he went brought suits, he probably bought Scott the pepper suits when he went shopping. You know what I'm saying, was that type of dude. He gonna gonna he gonna hate you a little bit, but ain't nobody gonna protect you more than him? And that's true. I remember this, bro. I remember I was trying to dunk. I was playing and trying to dunk. The ball on shot and shot took me out to get out the air flatliney. So I hit the ground back first, looking at the the top of the lights and my eyes closed. Right, But who do I hear? I hear Charles hopefully eight like that right in shock face, like you know shocks like now, Bro, I wouldn't try to hurt him. It was just like, that's that's that's what it was. You had nothing to worry about. It's like he's like, bro, you go playing hard. That's why I had no fear. I wasn't worried about you know, nothing, really you're gonna try to dunk or whatever. Like it was. It was nothing like He's like, you do what you gotta do. Yeah. Yeah, that helped me shout out oak Man, that's we gotta get on the show because I know he got stories with a lot of he gotta get when we come back from recess. We gotta get up two thousand to me arguments, uh Argua, believe you chase the dunk contest forever and that we can talk about Mike's dunk from the free thrower and all the dunks in the history. But you came in and did some ship we had never seen. I remember, I've been fucking study hall at U C l A and the dunk Contest is coming on. So somehow I got the fucking lady to bring a TV and study hall and we watched you in Oracle Arena chase the dunk contest forever. How did you? I mean, you did dunks we never seen? Did you prep? How did you know what you were gonna do? Talk to us about that? So leading up to it, first of all, first of all, it took the Act the Congress to get Tea Mack to do it because he didn't want to do it. People don't know that. Like he put on the hell of a show himself and he did not want to do it. Who did in that dunk contest? People? That was a good dunk contest? Ricky Davis, c frank Uh Stackhouse, I'm forgetting. That's That's all the one I could think of right now. That's it was crazy and T Mac and Mac and him Yeah that was six yeah, yeah, yeah, so it was. It was crazy. But I was just like, bro, we could go out here and put to run on the map and you know, we could show what we could do because like we fooled around like we were fooling around with different stuff. Our remember in San Antonio at a practice one day, was we were just going crazy, throwing the ball all over the gym off one bounce and just doing crazy stuff just from trying to figure stuff out. So we had an awful trip there. Our car didn't pick us up one time, so we missed our practice leading up to the contest, so we never got the practice. Our practice was the Layoup line or whatever, the warm up line right before this contest started, so we never got the practice. And my routine that I was gonna do. I saw all these people man and sitting around. You see all the stars and everything, and that was all of us, just bro I was like this, this routine is not good enough. So I scrapped all of that in the layoup line. It took I was so hype. It took me everything not to do my duct routine in the layoup line. I was just so hYP like I've been looking for the just fly, just fly, that's it. I'm ready to show everybody what I could do. Like I take for all my high school in middle school, I didn't care about watching Sunday at the all Star Game. I just wanted to take. Watched the dun dunk contests on on Saturday, and I'm like, bro, I'm finally here. I ain't about to blow this, but I'm about to go ham. So when I got out there, I saw all these people, man, and my my energy uh, and my my drilling was on ten thousand ro so uh, I scrapped it. And so I was just trying to figure out what to do. So that first dunk, the reverse three sixty, I had tried to fool God. So I tried that dunk and barely made it when I was practicing, So I originally I had scrapped that already. But when I got out there, I saw all these people and I saw Twine there and I was like, watch this year. What you about to do? I was like, you walked into that motherfucker perfect too. People just walked into that mother hey. But I was just so I was so hyped. So that's why. So if you notice, remember when I dugged the ball boom and go through, and then I was so hype my second bounce, I probably could have did a windmill, you know, Like I was just so high because I had never accomplished that dunk like that before, but that was all adrenaline that so every in between every dunk, I was just over, just like just trying to figure out what next, what next? What next? So I did the one step one eighty wind mill. But I wanted to show everybody, like you know, obviously you didn't see many people jumping the other way and right. So I had taught myself how to jump, to do the reverse three sixty and just practice, practice, practice, until I got it to this day. Like if you asked me to do a dunk, I would do a reverse three sixty before I do the regular one. Cannot I can't go the other way anymore, like I can't. I can't. I can't. Just makes no sense of me. It's so it's so crazy. You get lost in your old get lost, absolutely, but I can't do it, like I'll barely make it. So that's why I wanted to show just obviously going against the grain, obviously a full extended wind mill blah blah blah whatever, and I didn't know if I was gonna get that high, but whatever. So with the one eight dunk, I wanted to show that I could take one step out of the baseline sore to the front the ren while doing the extended wind bill and boom throw it through. So I didn't get it. I didn't get a tent from Kenny Smith, you know, which kind of bothered me. So yeah, but he's like, oh, you set the bar too high. Well walking on the port. That's the last thing. That's the last thing I said to myself before my first dunk, I said, show up a show out, And that used to be our terminology in the band before. You know, obviously in the South, the band is huge, so we weren We're gonna show up and show out. So I was like, you know, this is my chance to show the world my imagination and what I'd be thinking about my head when it comes to duncan now you to to talk about that dunk contest and then to think it was twenty years ago? How does that make you feel? That ship was twenty exactly exactly. And I still get chilled. I still get chills, and I'm still like, man, what was I thinking? When? When? When? When? I No, that's crazy. Some of his teammates were even born that bro team, it's weren't even born yet. Think about that. Yeah, you know what I mean, like that ship is insane. So it's just funny to kind of here and and see it and to just to think of all what transpired and and think once Kenny gave me that nine, and I was like, Okay, all right, I gotta step this up a little bit. Huh, okay, I gotta get it in. I didn't want the competition to be close. I but that's why I wanted team back in there, because I knew he would push me, uh to do it because he he had like his dunk His dunks were crazy, stupid bound and that's what that's what pushed me to the next level. Did seeing what Steve Frances did, Like we forget about what Steve Friants was doing. He killing Hey, do y'all remember anything that Ricky Davis did. Didn't? Did he go between the legs and he did back up crazy back but nobody remembers that. But that's what I'm saying. Seeing that, I was like, Okay, I gotta step it up. So the arm in the rim came like this. I played in Gary Payton game and I was in the land line. I was jumping over the rim and I did it in the warm up too. But I jumping over the rim and I was just dropping the ball in and I was like, okay, cool, I'm gonna do that, but I gotta add something to it. So I'm gonna just trying to hang. I've never done it, but I didn't know how to do it. I ain't gonna buy something all. He's right, you know how to do its dunk my fucking Let me dunck my fucking arm real quick, right. So the last thing, the last thing I remember leaving my coach, Butch Carter said, don't go out there and break your damn arm in your legs. That's what he said to me. So when I'm standing up the rim before I about the jug there, like, bro, please don't fall off this room, I was buying time like I didn't know what to do, how to do it, so when I walked it off, but I wanted to show. So what I wanted to show you is that how high I can jump. I want to show that I could get my arm a butter rim and then you know the rest is history. I wanted to kind of hang up there, and I don't want you to say, oh, I want you to be like what the fuck what I yeah, and I want you to realize what happened when you looked at that that jumper trump because they've never seen it. It didn't get the initial because people like, what did he just do? And that's what I wanted. That's what that ship reminded me of. What was the movie? What's the movie with? Uh? The Tropic Thunder? What's the movie semi pro when they when they first when they first threw the alley, you and Mothercker's didn't know how to read like that was like, what did he just do? Like yeah, he's like that's when he's like, that's the foul that's two points. Yeah, it was that. It was that kind of awe though, like people like, did he just stick his fucking dunk his arm and hang up there? That's what I want. So if you notice when I walk away, I had my eyes closed, just making sure it was quiet and the arena and I just started laughing, yeah, because after that's what I wanted, Like they're gonna be like, oh, so that was that dunk and then between the legs dunks or the two that made up that night was the one though when it was over, we so so that's the crazy thing about every time. Every time I look at that dug, like I look at the first four dugs. Oh no, so yeah, between the legs. So I said it was over because like I'm trying dunks for the first time, making up tonight, and I'm making these on the first try. It's old. It's over. That's what out. Now I'm trying to push the envelope a little bit. I saw that in between the legs in East Bay Magazine for the Jump Souls member the Jump Souls, you know when I was in the East Bay magazine because it comes from the East Bay Gangster. Yeah, I saw that picture, right. I saw that picture. So I was like, I'm gonna try that. But they said you got to use the teammate. So I was like, all right, uh t, Max, just gotta drop bounce the ball off the bounce. Yeah, And we never practiced. He was like, cause what you're about to do? I said, just bounced the ball, get hell out of the way. He bounced. He's like, what he bounced it the first time. He bounced it too high because I didn't know where to bounce it out high I need, I said, just bounce it waist height. That seemed logical. To me waist height, so I can just catch it and then put it between the last said, bounce the ball and walk out the way. And if you look at you see him bounced the ball and he looked back like what is he doing? And that's how I came up with it. I never tried in my life, so I didn't know if I was can make it or not. And that's where the point came when I did that, because I'm like, oh, that's what That's what it was. I was like, brother, Gods is on my side. The dunk Gods, it's over. So so I did you same boat? Steal that from you? That's all I'm saying I did in two Hey, alright, that's his ship now. I don't know if it did it first. Yeah, that's cool. Y. So talk about teaming up with Kate, with kg Ray, Allen Peyton, Jason Kidd and the gold medal team. It was a dream come true for me. Man. It was talked about obviously my ninety two and the Dream Team, and then you had Dream Team too. Then comes us in two thousand and the funny thing about it, guys, I wasn't on the initial team. I didn't make it so Shack was supposed to be on that team, Grant Hill was supposed to be on that team, and I'm missing another because I think Grant was hurt or Shack. I know Shack was hurt as well. Tim du Tim Duncan was supposed to be on the team, and then Tom Google YadA got hurt, so Ray Allen. Ray Allen actually made the team over me, and we played each other that night in Toronto forty seven. But it had nothing listen listening, you see, I just say that matter seven. But it was one of those things I wanted to show more so it had nothing to do with here. I wanted to show the Olympic folks that you know I'm working right that to be on that squad, I hit my first eight shots. I was eight eight from the beginning, I was just in another zone where I was in another zone. And in weeks later, Tom Google out and gets hurt. I get that call would you like to be? Would I like to be? Yeah? So I missed the original team, the original photo. I was photoshop then, so when you see that picture like on me on that I had to take a picture and then to get photoshop there right. So from there I had. I was like, I gotta go, I had to go earn my way. But it was it was all worth it, man. It was fun. It was great. You know. I was going through some ups and downs in my life. Really, That's why I had the Frow and all that. Me and GP rocking the throw out. There was something different, something different that was my favorite outside. I mean the dunk did the gold medal. My favorite part was seeing Vince with the frow everything. But I was angry. I was angry for a lot of reasons, man like because like that was during the time that Mac had left. The media was trying to put us against each other, which wasn't the case. So you know, I was just like, let me just go out here and ball, and I got that chance. Just say, the dunk contest happened at the end of thee and then and then comes which at that time, the Olympics flowed right into the season. So the season started right after that and I ended up getting hurt, you know, because we didn't really get that much time off. It's not like it is now. But so being in the Olympics, bro, it's just like I'm here, man, there was gout and have fun and obviously playing with like Jay Kidd and Tim Hardaway and GP with point guards. He was like, bro, young fella. You know, I'm one of the younger guys out there, me and Sharif go get it. Yeah, he's a young fellow. You know. GP ain't talking with to you young fellers. So anytime you half way over, but I'm throwing all right. The rest was history, just making history, just doing some crazy stuff. And then the dump happen, making a real favorite moment. Frederick Wise jumped over a seven for what were you think that you came so dreaming it? You know we're not a dreamaline. Yes, I don't want to short change. And he was seven to ship talk. But when he turned it head it put him seven feet, so it was he was legit seven. But so it happened. You know, when you're playing in the in the offstar again, sometimes like shots are few and far between. It just all depends if you'll let you roll them. But it was one of those things. He threw the ball behind his back. I get to steal while everybody running transition. I see it, I see the rim, I don't see him. I see the rep. So I said one too took a dribble and I just I ain't pay attention to where I was jumping from. So you know, the paint is different than the NBA. It's a different Yeah, it's wider. So in my mind, so when I jumped, I see him and all I remember, God's my witness. All I remember is touching his shoulder with my left arm. I'm focused on the rim because I thought I jumped too far. So in my mind, I'm thinking I'm about to get hung and make a spright commercial brook like too far. But I was just trying to get up before the defense get back. You gotta pass it, set it up, blah blah blah. So I just attacked the rim. So when I jumped, I hit him. I didn't think about here no more. I thought he moved out of the way or he tried to take a charge and fell down, because I remember the initial bump and that's it. I'm focused on the rim. So when I get so, if you go back and look at it, I stretch out because I'm reaching for the rid because I thought I was too far. But I ended up dunking the ball with my wrists because I was I've actually had enough you know flight time. You know what I'm saying. I had some air miles, so I had enough. So when I hit the rim my celebration would almost punched KG. I was celebrating that. I wasn't celebrating that I jumped over because I didn't know. That was my favorite. That was my favorite part of the dug saying you and KG, because j right, we were celebrating two totally different things. That was just crapy. I was like, yeah, made it. He's like yeah, but I'm like yeah, But I adin't know I jumped over buddy until after the game. After the game, not knowing you jumped over a seven footer seven two, I mean whatever. And when I didn't know, so the rest of the game, nobody said the word. So I asked Steve Smith. I said, Smithy, how come you ain't saying nothing? Like nobody said nothing the rest of the game, and say, brother, we still didn't believe you just jumped over a person. Oh that means all right, that's fair. So after the game, Gary Payton Homeboy showed me on the camp quarter. That's when the little camp quarters just came out a little small Yeah, they just came out that summer and and and that's how I saw it. I watched it seven times, like wait what yeah? Hey, I tried to jump over due six five later on in the season, like in the middle season, couldn't do it. Almost died, almost almost killed both of us dead. Serious? Was your shoe? If I'm not mistaken, you introduced the Nike shocks? Right? Was that new to you? Here's a funny story to that. I could not wear I could not wear Nike shoes and it be shown so I could wear him in practice, But when the media came in for interviews during the practices, I had to take my shoes off. When I were the games, all my Nike shoes were cut out, all the Nike symbols were cut out. So I was playing in the Olympics up until the gold medal game with holes in my shoes. So the gold medal game is when I first was able to show the Nike shots. And and that's when the first time I was officially a Nike athlete. But you brought the shot? Was the shock technology? I'm talking about the technology? Were you the first one to get that on your shoes? Right? Yeah? Yeah? So they had it done. They just didn't have anybody to kind of go with the whole boying type thing, and you know you were doing you were definitely a boy and gass motherfucker boy. Yeah, I mean it made sense. So I was like, it was like, yeah, when I saw the technology, I was like, bro, this is a no brainer. I'm in. So you touched on it a little bit, like you said, a lot of frustration things leading up to the Olympics. Um, after that. Now, when when the dust is settled, your cousin is gone, you guys, you know after only two years, do you guys, what do you feel if you guys could have got on the same page at the same time, you guys could have accomplished as one of the young, up and coming wing duos in the league. We've talked about it, man, We talked about it later on. Um, I was gonna say after our career, but you know, when when he was done, I mean and just talking about like, man, what if? Man? It could have been? But we were we were building something, and we played the Knicks and we got swept that year and then that's when he left the next year and we ended up winning. But you see what t Mac became, Man, and and and for me leading up into it, and he just wanted his opportunity to be if you would, batman and to me, I was like, brother, were both Batman, like, we could do this together. And and you know, it was just the time where he wanted to be. When you when you draw something in the in the in the huddle, if you wanted for him, and if you gotta defer, you gotta defer. So I understood it, like, and it was no hard time. I hate to see him go, but everybody made it something different, and you know, and he became a monster like like for real like and he and I felt like he was a monster already, so I could. I was just like me doing what I'm doing, him doing what he's doing, bro Like and then you know, you know, when you're winning, you see potentially like that, free agents want to come play. And I felt like good things could have happened. Man, It's just like what if? What if? And you know we both said, bro, we we possibly could have had a ring or two. Um just because of it. Y'all have some good you guys have some good solid teams. If you would have kept him, definitely you touched on it. Earlier. We got a chance just recently to speak to John Wall and Bradley Beale and how the media is trying to draw a wedge between them and this crazy Instagram climate where you know, social media kind of rules. This was pre social media, obviously, but they tried to do the same thing with you guys. Like I said, they tried to flip the narrative, trying to make it seem like you guys didn't like each other. What was your guy's relationship during that time? We were tight. We were tight, man like. We were still like, still communicating. It was funny for for a brief moment, like when it came out, because it came out like they'll do an interview and they'll take pieces of it and it's edited to where I it it comes out negative. So we didn't talk for a couple of months, and then after while I was like, I can't imagine him saying what I'm reading or what y'all name he said. So we talked and he was like, bron I didn't even say that. He was like, cause I didn't say that. He was like, and then it was like, now we look like y'all foolish. So even so they didn't know. Behind the scenes, we already talked. So now as these stories go on, we're talking. So when you hear the bullshit, you're like, no, Bro, now he didn't say that, you know why because I just talked to him. So that kind of killed that. But every time we played against each other, Bro, he he was trying to dog me. I was trying to dog him because it was just made good competition and that's what we did it. And when we were playing pick up, like especially when you playing against your family and in professional sports, but like we're cool, but like this this is this is for good bragging rights. And I remember the one time, the one game we played in Orlando and I couldn't play that game and he threw the ball off the blackboard and dumped that thing at me. Bro y'all remember y'all remember that? And everybody was like, oh, he showed events up on the court. That was j y D who had the headband on number thirteen foods. I've been wanting to say that. I didn't want to say that for a long time. Bro, that wouldn't even me. But I wasn't even on the court. That wasn't me. But he threw it on the backboard and dump that thing. And he looked at me. I was like, you know, he's the lean on them. So that's what I'm saying. So I want to give him his credit because you know, when I threw the ball off the backboard in the All Star Game, I want to say that was Denver. It was like all of it, but t mac was one of the first to do that. Man, one of the first to do it in the league. That people, you know, don't really give him credit for him. And he used to catch and lean on that motherfucker just look on that nasty. Yeah. So you're you're making truck constant, you know, progress every year. You're you know, you're you're you're getting better, You're elevating your game. Two thousand one season, you know, the year after he left, you're after nearly twenty eight points of game. The Raptors win forty seven games. Fifth seed. You knocked the Knicks out in the first round, and then you have a knockdown drag out right finally you have a knockdown, drag out battle with AI in the second round. Talk to us about that about that second round series. To this day, that was one of the greatest, the best battles I've ever been in high school. Otherwise, I mean, I don't care. You know, you play your hot, your your rivals or whatever. Outside of the Duke Carolina robbery. Bro that that was one of the most epic battles I've been in. Um, we know what a I can do. Y'all know what a I can do because y'all have been around, y'all played against him. You know, it's it doesn't do him any justice of us or anyone who's played against him talking about it, because when you played against him, like he was a real it was just back and forth. And I want to say, we won game one, and and I had a good game, and that man responded with like fifty something like oh, okay, that's what we're doing. That's what we're doing, so and and and it just he just took that game to the next level. Man, He took the he took the series to the next level. And I responded, obviously with fifty right, and yeah, we scored, he scored. I think I scored scored forty six. Once did he responded with the fifties. So it was just crazy back and forth, like that's what It goes back to what we talked about earlier about I want to do for my team. Man, let me go out there like I love. I love to sit in the stage. I love the big the big games and stuff. And you know something, you know, unfortunately don't get a chance to really play on the big, big stage like some of somebody else to both of y'all, but um, that's what it was about, man. It was just playing against the best and showcasing what you can do and where I felt like that was the best basketball I've ever played because I was just in a groove and it was tough getting beat on the tumbo, trying to get past my tumbo. You know what I'm saying, when you beat your guy whatever it was, it was crazy, bro, It was just crazy. Yeah. I think I think about the All Star Game that year when it was Ai, Tea, Mac mar Barry and somebody else and uh and Vince and and there was four guards at the five DC one. Yeah it was you. It was you, Tracy, Ai Steph and you had another guard. It was small ball. I played the I played in the Rookie Game that year, but that was that was my favorite All Star game because they played y'all played small ball gets a big Western conference and came back and won that game. They had like kg they had ever. Yeah, yeah, I remember that played good. But what you're talking about you and Mark, you and obviously going at it. Yeah, I was able to play together and which I was able to do together. That was good to see. That was dope. That serious. Like I said, in that second round series, you know, you averaged over thirty, he averaged over third. You guys both dropped fifty. Game seven comes down to game seven, you do something that probably made every parent in America smile. H You made a promise to your mom that you were going to get your degree. Graduation happened to be that morning. You fly to North Carolina, get your degree, come back, and you get the last shot of the And I feel like all that it would have never been a big deal at all. You would have gone down as a hero. They hit a game winning shot and got your degree in the same day. But you barely missed that last dropper, and then all the scrutiny comes talk to us about that. So it was disappointing because I go through uh, well, leading up to it, I knew I had a decision to make it. It's like, okay, if it drags on. Uh, you know, I knew May twenty was was coming. That's the day it all took place. And uh what my mom was like, what you're gonna do? I was like, I'm gonna do both. You know, I'm gonna fulfill my my requirements for both, you know. And I made sure because I graduated at nine o'clock that morning. The game was at seven till seven pm, and I walked through one until twelve, so I was back in time. I made it. But I asked every player on that team, you know, if they had a problem with it, man the man, face to face, saying what you gotta say, speak your piece. I'm going. I'm going. I did practice after practice, I'm flying out there. I'll already be there the next morning. I'm walking across that stage to get my degree, which means, you know, which is important to to my family because I come from a family to educated. Everybody in my family, our school teachers, everyone. You know what I'm saying, So, uh, do you have a problem with it? I went to every man and or everyone in the organization. Now, now that's what something Why don't you back in time back. As soon as I get to get there, a couple of players on the team has something to say in the media. So it was it was disappointed to kind of pissed me off a little bit. I was like, you know, I'm a young guy, y'all speak up like I would. I came to you, man to man, It's like, I ain't just leaving, leaving to you whatever, say it now. That's what I wanted. And I was prepared for some of the some guys who have a problem with it, and nobody had a problem with it. But nevertheless, you know, I got past that, graduated, made it back, and you start hearing all, you know, the reporters and all of these experts are talking about jet lag and it's no way that he can play in the game and play well with that. So you know, at first, you know, you start buying into that. So the first couple of minutes down the down the court, my legs felt heavy, heavy, and I missed the first I was like, oh, ship, maybe they're right, maybe maybe they're right. And but I stepped out of it and played played well. I mean, I played very solid game, uh and and got down to that last shot. So I remember going into the hut, I said, I told us, I said, I said, nah, let me give it here, let me me get it. So originally the play was a zipper basically up to the top of the floor, so it's wide open, so I can go left, the right, do what I had to do. Tyrone Hill we all know the great Tyrone Hill and you know his history. But anyway, he denies the ball. So I get the ball in the corner and took that one puff faith to swing through to the perfect shot, to the shot I shot it. You know, I'm a faid of way shooter. You know, if y'all know me, you know I can't shoot it on ballot shot. That's just don't work. That's just not what I do. And uh, it felt like a perfect shot. So halfway through in the air, I'm like, oh that's good. So for all the people talk ship and got something to say when this, when this go in, I'm thinking about what I'm gonna do. I don't either go run the stands and be like I'm gonna jump on the stand Remember, like, like, yeah, what what I did? Both So halfway I was like, oh, here we go. Second half of that shot. You play the game, you know when your shot long or short or good. Yeah, I'm like, oh, this is long, so I'm hoping for the backgrim bounce up and bounce in, hits the back of the rim, bouncing, bounce it off, And all I could do it just hold my head up high and kind of just laugh at it. Like man, when I made the decision, I was prepared for either either way, make or miss. And I was ready, like right after what they looked at me, like you want to wait for you? You do your media, now, let's let's go. Like I made my decision. I'm gonna stand by it. You know what I'm saying. I'm gonna standing by it, like and and it's a shot that you know it bothered me. I ain't gonna lie to you. It bothered me, but I was willing to take whatever scrutiny they had for me. And when we got back to Toronto that night, I went straight to the gym and I knocked that shot down ten times just to make sure. You know what I'm saying. You've made, you made, before, you made, after, you made plenty of times you just happen to miss that. But the fact that you did something early in the morning. They want to point it, Okay, well he wasn't this, he wasn't that. But to meet that shot, and exactly that's what they always do. It's what they gotta do. You mean, but you to me, you hit that shot, you move on. It's goddamn amazing. Vince Carter wouldn't graduated. Then he came back and hit the game, win and shot again. That that's the narrative, the whole another narrative, you know what I mean, a whole another there does do thinks with things not have got sour in Toronto after that. I'm not saying I'm not saying that led to your accent, because I'm hoping you tell us what led to your accent. But I'm saying the whole scenario changes now, you know. I mean, you're you're still a superhero out there, you know, I mean, but it's so eating. It all happened like that, and it's just like it's one shot. So if I make that shot. Sixers go on to play Big Dog and and and and ray uh against Milwaukee in the in the in the conferences, they go on to play the Lakers. We felt whoever came out of that series against the Sixers could possibly play in the finals. So I'm watching the finals like it should have been us. One freak, yeah exactly. You know, one shot away from a great opportunity. You just don't know. Obviously, you know, we could go up there and laying against Milwaukee. But it's just like at that time, we just felt like that was our moment. So, you know, you go through the seasons and a couple injuries and and and you know, you get to the point now they're bringing Chris Bosh in and things starting to change, and they kind of want to move to Chris being the franchise player. So I was like, that's cool. It is what it is. It's a business. I get it. It's that's one thing about me, bro, like and everybody, you know, everybody different. You know, they were looking for me to to act the fool in the locker rooms and and and and do do whatever. That wasn't my thing. Bro. I'm like, bro, you I'm hooping. This is what I love to do. Just let me who I don't care about all the other stuff that not all that that that pouting and and being in the locker room and acting the fool and and and that that wasn't my thing, and that that that's what they wasn't gonna get out of me. So uh and my whole thing was like, you don't want to move into Chris Bosh and into being the guy. That's fine, I say, if y'all don't want me here, just move me. And it just became an ugly situation. And so when it actually happened, we're playing the Pacers that night in Indiana, and prior to that, the GM made he rest in peace. Uh he he um. He told uh told my agent that nobody called, there was no interest, nobody was really interested. Okay, cool, take my nap and wake up to seventy two calls and text. I mean I'm talking about like literally it went from nobody was interested to two hours later, I just got traded to the next. So I'm just like, bro, what's good? Like, okay, cool, um, what do I do? I ain't never been in that like, but I you know, I wasn't even thinking about no movement. I just like, like, if y'all don't need me, if y'a don't want me anymore, Like I ain't trying to be no problem, just getting rid of the problem if I'm the problem. When they got rid of the problem, but the problem, it made it look like I was a problem. Like basically, they just made it look like, you know, I didn't want to be there. I didn't want to play. It got to the point where I was starting games uh Me and Jalen. The next thing, you know, I come right out the game. And if you know, if you're a real player, you know you can't get no rhythm if you playing a couple of minutes and then sitting right down. That's just that's just how the game, especially if you're used to playing big minutes, especially for you. That's what I'm trying to say, right, So it was just weird how well and it was just like how do you react to that? And then you come back in out of rhythm? So it just looked bad. And I it was at the point, I don't win the battle in the media. What do I go to the media saying say what when when you got them saying I can't, I can't, I don't win that. So I just had to be patient and take my lumps. So bro I took lumps for nine years, ten years, and I was like one of these days. Next thing, you know, it's just other people just started to understand and catch window hide. It all took place. And let me say it's real quick. It was no oart feelings. But it's like, it's a business. I was introduced to the business the first night of my career, so I knew what it was, you know what I'm saying. So I know it's a business. You know, I love this game. And you know that's one thing they don't tell you get drafted in the NBA. It's like, oh, I made it. I made it to the game of basketball. It's born in the game of basketball. You got in. You just made to the business of basketball. So it was a business. And I was hurt. So I had a bad achilles from from you know, you know, my shoes or whatever. But we'll just leave at that. And uh, you know that I was wearing and so I was down. So when I got back and was able to play as a new Jersey net, I had something to prove bro because they was like, oh, he don't love the game, like you're telling me, I don't love the game after what you've seen me do for five six years. Like that. That was like when you tell me that I don't love the game. That's that's one thing that I can't handle. And especially if you look now years later or whatever, fifteen years later, that that's the one thing I love to do. At this age, I love the game. Basketball is life. That's what we do. That's why we talk about this thing to this day because we love it. And that was a questioning. I couldn't handle that. So it all worked out and got that opportunity in New Jersey. Now I'm playing with j kids. So they're like, oh, how come he didn't do that? How come you wasn't doing that with with with the Toronto Raptors. Bro. I also didn't have Jason Kidd throwing throw him there. Ever, let's be real about it, like come on, like, let's let's look at it. Call of spade to spade, Like, Jason Kidd is my point guard. Bro. You you turn around on the break, you look up the ball already there? Yep? Come on, man? Like yes, now as a score, all you mean all I gotta do is just score. I ain't gotta beat my man all the time. Oh man, come on, let's be real. What was it like playing with Jay Kid? Because I think he's someone that gets lost in the mix too, But he's one of the greatest point guards we've ever seen. I've ever seen, man, And I've been fortunate enough to play with a couple of them, and I'll talk about that later on. But um, you know, play with j Kid the first day, I'm obviously playing against them and All Star Games or whatever. But and we played in the Olympics. But the first day he said, hey, man, he said, don't get mad at me because the first our first game, I'm throwing you alive and I'm just gonna see how high. That's the first thing he said. That's the first thing he said to me. So the first game he throws me a love that basically was at the top of the backboard where it was like, all right, bro, But me being me, I'm gonna try gotten that bit. You know, I got my hand on so I missed the first one went out about he said, Okay, so you're willing to You're just willing to try anything. Yeah, So it just makes exactly I was like, bro, and then and then what made it, um more fun is that so you run the court. So if you run in the court, you know J K gonna throw me the love. Everybody gonna shift that way. But guess what, there was that other high jumping dude on the other side by the name of Argent. You I'm saying, So the game just got easier because it's now you got another athlete, another dunker. The game is open. It's just a different squad. I'm not playing with the squad that I played with, so it's a different, different team. So it was It was fun. Man. It just gave me new life and I just wanted to go out there and show that I still belonged, that still you know, deserved to be and can be one of the best players out there. So we were pretty much out of the playoffs and we we ended up getting the a C that year and ended up playing the Miami Heat. M So that's that's a young That's when Wade and Shock first teamed up O five. They swept you guys in the first round, uh to to two thousand and six, you go up against Indiana in the first round of six games and you guys knocked uh Jack's team out. What do you guys remember about that series? Man? Knocked down drag out. Like you said, it was the inspected. So it was still the old East physical you know what I'm saying, Like y'all had, uh what's a j point guard? Big point guard? Uh? Just had They had a bunch of defenders. And it was just it was just like what we know, like watching the Last Dance. That's what it was like. It was in your face. I don't care about you, you don't care about me. We're gonna play hard. I'm expected them. But I knew if I didn't hit Jack first, he's gonna hit me. You know. We're trying to get that. We're trying to get to the next round. And that's what it was all about. So I think we had a young Danny Granger that time. YE show did. So I was seeing like different guys, like you know if if I was trying my best to get one guy in foul trouble, guess what. So it was crazy, I bet you do. You remember how how we won the series? The last game I want to say it was, I think it was game six. We beat him in six, right, so I wanted one. I won the game went on the left hand dunk on jail. I don't know if that was the game. Remember that dunk I remember that. I remember that. That was one of the first times of me duncan left handed. You know, I don't. I don't really dunk left handed that much? Was that for the game wanted too? Yeah? That was a game winner ship. Yeah, so that was my first, Like I was one of the first times, like like, I have a lot of respect for shot blockers, and you know, I had a dunk list and I was trying to dunk on whatever. So to be able to dunk on somebody like Joe and I know Jail everything and he's strong with it too, so you know, to be able to pull that off on that on that level, it was cool. So then you guys, after you guys beat Indiana, you guys run into the heat again on their way to their title talked to us a little bit about what that young d d Way was a fucking monster in them and then down before you start on the way, please tell let people know how cold this motherfucker was, because now we're watching this last Dance ship and people trying to say that Lebron never played with a piper where the Way was finals any people from Lebron got there, So talk about d Way, But please a monster he was he had shot who shot and who was killing? Who was dominating? But bro, like we couldn't. Okay, so we we we played uh game one and we won game one. Don't understand we beat them game one and we we made an adjustment to where uh we put cliff Robinson on shot that wasn't an adjustment then, well, yeah, what because Jason Collins was kind of getting used and used Cliffer dog yeah, and shot respect where he wasn't really going through him and you know the elbows that shocked like to throw where he going to the basket. And it was working for us, and we spread the court and Cliffy was shooting the three. So we win game one. He's like, okay, we got him back. We're gonna get swept. We got these boys back. Five well, leading in the game to my boy uncle Cliffy, Um, you know got suspended for being dirty. Yeah, my boy, that's my guy, that's my bad man during the playoffs. That's man. He came to his house the night before and you know, and he got suspended. And then they proceeded to four owe us uh and we're using five and I didn't even know that crazy. Yeah, So man, that boy d Wade was just next level hitting shots. And you know at the time, you know, you didn't consider him a great shooter, so you you're playing them for the drive. But did he started doing everything in a Wade track, pick and roll. Once he got back to the left hand man, it's over. Change the direction was unbelievable, unbelievable because remember you always wanted to force him, You always wanted to force him to the screen. But just like Genobli, he would get back to that baseline and there was he was you dunk on you post. It was killing good at it, man, and he knew how to use his body. So once he got by shock, he crossed the back over while you're still trying to get over shack. Yeah, and there gonna do about that, bro. You know what I'm saying. I can talk basketball like this to y'all. You know what I'm talking. You know what I'm talking about. You know what I'm saying, Like it was impossible. And once he got that still, like you said, he was either dunking year old, drawing the foul, or doing all the above. So problem. So you've been known from putting people on posters, obviously with the dunk of the Olympics, the Alonzo Morning dunk in two thousand and five. Just walk us through that sequence, because that could be one of the sickest chest to chest face dunk on your motherfucking ass we've ever seen. So two thousand five, we're playing at Miami and the first quarter the game starts and I go, baseline, boom dunk on Zoe. Alright, cool, whatever, you know, when you dunk on Zo, you better be happy because Zoe coming back. Hen, That's just what it is. Two plays later, r J boom dunk on him, So we both dunker him in the first half. That's it go we get the halftime. I'm sitting in the locker room, I said r J. Literally, I said this, this is my worst I said, r J. When you gonna be in the duncle's Zoe again, because he's gonna knock us out the air. He ain't going, So I said, what you're gonna have to do. You're gonna have to take the hit, bounce off of, and then hopefully you can dunk it. God's on his truth. So second half comes, the ball goes out, r J tries to make a lamp gets bumped out I get the ball, go behind the back of my boy j will On Bubbs, and I take two dribbles. So I took the first dribble and I see the baskets, I see Zoe, so he's sitting there like, yeah, okay, I'm about to block it. But you know, Jason Collins was so smart, but so you don't know. He was holding zose On so he couldn't go. And as I took my second dribble, he let him go. So as soon as he let him go, Zoe was already too late. So once I got in the air, bro, he jumped at me. So I'm up. He jumping at me already have the momentum because I got up first. So when hire when he hit me, he bumps me up higher. So so when I hit him and I'm leading to the side, I'm like, oh, ship, the rim is right there. So I'm like, bro, don't miss it. I'm like, bro, don't miss this. This is an opportunity. So I just caught it. And I just remember I was so high. I just threw it through and I remember running down the court like so fell bad and I was I just look at our bitch like and I ran down the court and then and then the wait was siding. He's like that ain't right, bro, I know him saying that I laughed, but I tried to play it like I was tough, like you know, I was like, I'm in me muggy. But he said that, but that body had been the funniest thing ever. Like his teammate got buked. He's like, ain't right, it's one of them. Just when it happened, everybody running around the house was running around the house. Oh God, like what just happened? Man? It was there was there any truth that you guys didn't talk for like six or seven years after that was Man, it was like five years so so so and I and see here's a crazying I heard. I saw his response somewhere. He's like, it wasn't true. I ain't got no reason to lie about it. But like it was a basketball play, you know what I'm saying. It's not like we said him up like trying to jump on it was just like he tried to block it. It happened, okay. But I think the backstory to it is a commercial was trying to be what they were trying to do a commercial with that Uh Like he tried to use a commercial and ask for his permission. He didn't want it to be done. Uh So they ran the commercial up until the point to where we bumped and before I dunked it and they cut it off. Damn. So they used that much of it, and I guess he felt like I had something to do with it. I ain't gonna do that the first time you've been dunk. Don't've been dunk don't by everybody. And I had dunked him my rookie year, and I flexed on him like he's like, you don't, fella calmed down. That's how young fellas get hurt. I was like, my bad, you know what I'm saying, Like I ain't stopped, you know what I'm saying. It was one of those type of things. So so leading up to us how it was like five years so All Star Games Land though right All Star Gaming Orlando, uh is I helped. I hosted a dinner for Obama at my house and guests to coming in. Is only seventy people, doorbell rained, door open, you know, somebody open the door. I'm saying at the front, like greeting people, and I see O. I was like, okay, so how are we gonna play this one? Because he ain't talked to me in all these years, like you go walking in my house, keep going on, not like something I don't know. So I'm just waiting to because you know, it's like all right, I'm you know, clearly you don't want to talk for whatever reason. So it's all good because al right, prior to we sat in the restaurant in Miami at Prime one twelve and see each other and he didn't speak. Maybe he didn't see me and not we were facing each other, but maybe he didn't see me whatever, So I didn't know how this was gonna play out. So that's why I was like in for five years. And finally when he walked in, we smoked, hug. It was all good, Like we talked, was like like nothing never happened, and I was like cool, whatever, it's a basketball play, so it is what it is. And I didn't want him and he probably never I probably I never actually said that, but I think I personally think that's what led to him being frustrated or not talked to me because maybe he felt like I had something to do with that commercial and I didn't and Yeah, that's something I've read. That's what I'm saying. It already the word I've seen it already, bro, And that was my point. So like that's what I was like. It was a basketball play. Like if you block it, yo, that's your highlight. Now we see sports and like he he floored because if he blocked that, I'm hitting the floor. You know what I'm saying. So it is what it is. He gonna get mad again because we're gonna I'm gonna make sure they edit this. Uh so we get that on the edits that we put on Instagram. So it was it was a cool dumb bro. Like I'll tell you, like, I ain't never like you know, when you feel like you're floating and then people like, oh, you're always floating out, But that's the next level float because I started going higher when I wasn't prepared to go high. But that's a scary feeling. I have never jumped as high as you, but I've dunked and got hit on the way up and got hired. And that's scary for that one split second because you're not expecting to be that guy and knowing where the ring is at. So I've only how many times in my life? Right, you've done it all the time, But for motherfucker's that don't fly like you when you go up and someone hits you and propels you just a little bit hard. That's a scary feeling. It don't happen to me once twice. But I used to like it because now I know where it feels like to be that high, right, to be up there like you do it on my own. Yeah, that's all I'm saying. It happened to me a couple of times, and that ship is scary. But so we've talked about legendary dunker throughout your career. Who were your top five dunk on? So we talked about the Olympic one, we talked about Zoe or those in your top five that you remember if you're dunk of your career? What are another three? Number Tumbo Frederick Bce. So I'll tell you what I don't don't Patrick Ewing, And I don't know why, but that was like one of the happiest moment. I typically didn't didn't run home to watch Sports Center, But when I don't don't. When I don't know Patrick Ewing, I felt like that I just accomplished something major that I ran home, was like, oh, I gotta see this, because like he was considered one of the He wasn't the elite dunkers, I mean shot blockers of the of the world, but he was on one of my on my list still still. And then and then I dumped on h I dun my guy a larger one two hands for a game winner. Uh when he was when he was in Houston, so he was playing for the Rockets, you know, he was my teammate also in Toronto a couple of years later, and that you still I don't know him to two hands like body for the game. So that was one of my favorite. And then um, yeah I got something. I guess, um, that's that's fine right there. I think what that one it was? It was no nobody, That's what I'm gonna say. I can't. I can't I count that because I did. I dumped. I jumped under the rim and dunking backwards. Is that when you went by Chris Mullen, you went by Chris Basine, right, So I did. I dumped on the other side for fear that Dale Davis was gonna take there. So that's why I dumped on the other side, and after the game he said, I like you. That's why I sucked you up. His words, Man, you jumped. You jumped so high. Them niggas jumped out the frame. They couldn't do that anyway. That's why why you can't see Chris Mullin. You jumped my Hey. So that was that was playing b because I was just gonna go two hand on brick Smith. But I was like, oh, okay, let me just see. Oh the rim there because I was gonna do this rim. That ship was sick. So you got Frederick Wise morning, you wing Alijah on in Houston, and then that Mullen Uh first step by Mullen on Indiana. Yeah, if y'all count that as a dunk on, that's cool. Yeah real quick. Toby had to kill list of players coming out that he wanted to uh knockout and prove you is better than you keep touching on your dunk list. Who who talked to us about what your dunk list was? Any big man that was that was considered a great shot blocker. The only guy that I did not get. Um, Well, let me say this now because I know Shack gonna has something to say. I didn't dunk on Shock. You can't tell him he makes that? Yeah, I got I got Tim in college. Yeah, I got Tim in college almost almost, Like I dunkel timm In in the league in San Antonio, I don't know in college two hands and I dun't on one hand in in in uh in San Antonio in front of the bench. Um, but I didn't get Yao and Shock. I got Sean Bradley. Uh, he was a. He was a he was dunk baked. Yeah, No, you know who was dunk Make my guy Sam down there. Oh yeah. Any anybody that's gonna be close to leading the league in shot blocking is gonna get dunked on. To look back that they challenged. So I respect the funk out of them shot blockers, even if they do get dunked on, because they're challenging everything. Bro. That ship is tough. THEO Ratliffe I called a couple of times, like, yeah, he was a big blocker. Yeah, I mean you name me. Any I dumped through bloody something disgusting, we had a discussion about it. So I did on Turt when he was in sack with Baseline, did a spin move back to the middle. So I was going right. They cut tried to cut me off. I did a spin move back into the center of the paint. Lady tried to come up there and put two hands up and I just two hands set on you know. So yeah, yeah, man, yeah, especially in the old building was looking low as hell. Yeah, because arena was a little small, tiny college arena. Two thousand nine year traded Orlando, Ryan Anderson, Austin Batti. Orlando had been in the finals the year before the Lakers. I come that year too. We got a hell of a team, hell of a team. Talked to us about that expen. We felt like I felt like we had a chance to go act to the finals. I say we because they did the privac year. But you know we we came on the team that year in battle the Lakers uh in the finals. We had a hell of a season. I want to talk to you about this because and this is all due respect, stand and stand, and we had some amazing I want to get hey, I want to get Jay Will on this because remember the one day in practice when Jay Will went on went in on standing through the behind the back, bullet passed and hit him in his stomach. Him man, funk that ring. I keep that ship under my motherfucking sink. You know, Jason White Shocolate is a fucking oh. I can't wait to get him. But but but talk to talk to us about this. We had hell of a season. This is when to me, Dwight Howard was one of the best players in the game. He was unbelievable. I never played with a more athletic strong I mean, obviously I missed Shack in his prime, but Dwight would talk to us a little bit about what Dwight, what you saw in Dwight in those in our years in Orlando with him. So it was crazy, man, because I was obviously living and being from Florida and living an our way. Finally get an opportunity to play at home. Before you go this, motherfucking Vince has the best house I've ever been to. He used to live right next to Tiger. Tiger used to be right there. Vince's fucking house in Orlando is unbelievable. But go ahead, unbelievable. Yeah, that's uh So, getting the opportunity to play at home finally, and you know it was it was perfect timing for me. I don't think I could have handled it as a young guy being at home with all, you know, just our way. So just getting there and just looking at their team and man, I feel like the same thing. Man, I looked at this squads like they went to the finals, so they got the final, they got finals experience, adding some some some some veterans who guy's been around, who you know, who knew knew how to play, had experience, and like this is what you actually had scoring, you had defense, you had rebound everything and everything you you could possibly get. Shooting yeah, j J who shooting lights out? Like we had everything. So we were deep. It was crazy and what it was it's like, you know, I felt like I still belong as a as a star player. But at the same time, I'm like the White this is his team, Like he had just gone to the finals and did doing great things. You're mirror, you know, another guy who's just doing great things. And so it was just like just fit in, man, and then we bring that team though, like you were alright, go like we had the obviously Richard Lewis is on the big contract there. Yeah, but you are a go to guy that and like you said, we had everything in place to be a championship team with that team that year exactly so, and that's what it was for me. I was just like, I'm just gonna be me and stands like I just need you to be You would just do your role beat because I don't care about who's the man like, but when you need a bucket, bro, give me a call, I'm ready giving it, you know what I'm saying. So you know what I'm saying, Like, this's whatever, But I knew how what what would need to be done. We had to establish the White and his dominance act like that's stupid if we didn't do that. So you give him the ball, it opens up the rest of the game, so or vice versa. If I got rolling like he wrote, like when the White was rolling down the paint, throwing lives and catching like ducks, like it's like, what do you do with that? You know what I'm saying. So it was just like he was just raw and and and still had, uh, you know, a lot to learn it, but he was just he started to understand and I think making the finals that first year helped him kind of growing mature. I mean, he was still silly as hell, but like silly that that was the only thing that looking back, like this motherfucker was so good. He just didn't take nothing serious. Man. He was so fucking good. But he would be looking around in Eastern Conference practice like my nigga, like we're playing the Celtics and damn right, just focus just for a second. But but like bro, your boy like hating bro. He tried to you know what I'm saying. Like so it was just crazy like and and just to go through it and and and just so it was just crazy, like we were like cool. Everybody was laid back, but dump when to kind of to take it seriously at all. As we as we got deep in the playoffs, I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna think I had an awful January. I was shooting from the field and you remember this man. Come February, we get rolled and were playing the Pelican and that night I got out of shooting something and I had forty eight HM, and I was just going, I couldn't miss bro and We're playing at home. And I felt after that we took off and became got into playoff mode from February because you know, it all start breaking cop back and then next thing, you know, we're getting into the playoffs and well that's the same year too that that's the ball fake year. So the ball fake with code people don't understand, like when that ship happened, that was that game that was that was that ballco So it was neated because everyone thinking like, yo, this, we're gonna about to see these motherfuckers, you know what I mean. So Cod was on this ship and people don't know the whole time, I'm looking for you off the backscreen for this play, and the fucking ball fake just happens. But that game right there too, it's just like, Okay, we beat the Lakers late in the season in a battle, like we're gonna have to see these dudes in another you know, six weeks and we're gonna play the ready had that game. We're not backing down from ship. They beat the last that the previous year. Trevor Reason was trying to punk turkle Wod might have worked, so they we bought reinforcement. We was ready for the Lakers that year, so we sweep through the playoffs. Jack caught some of it. Beat the Yeah, like I think we were winning by like twenty something a game like we said an NBA record we ran through at right. He was the only one who got any kind of buckets on your right, Jack, check U out, Hey, I remember, I ain't say. But with the Hawks though, I remember playing for the Hawks were getting go in the game for the beginning, Say Bro, hurry if we get this over with so we can go home, because like that's how it was that nobody could miss with we were nobody through. Tell me if I'm wrong, because this is what I saw. And shock always comes into my head when I think that that stand freezes in big games. So I love Standing as far as X and O is one of the greatest coaches I've ever played for from a strategy stand point, our preparation standpoint, when you play for staying, you're gonna be ready. Outside of them shoot around practices where he had to be taped with with you know, we had tape and knee pads and shoot around bro and really practiced. That ship was the worst. That was the worst. But outside of that stand is gonna have you prepare. But correct me if I'm wrong. If we did not change everything we had one with going into the Eastern Conference finals, we fucked everyone up in the playoffs we had beat we were we had success against Boston in the regular season. So we're going to the Eastern Conference Finals against Boston, says KG. This is their big three, right, yeah, Rondo, they were all, yeah, they had a squad, but we had had a good success. Like we feel like no one could funk with us be going to that series and stands like, you know, this is a really veteran team. I think we need to add a few, you know, a few different plays and looks in our thing, and we change our whole offense, bro our whole entire offense. The one thing I remember from that that that that that kind of frustrated and and it kind of shifted everything, especially as we started getting later into the into the series. You know, I remember you remember the White wanted more touches and we tried his force feed the ball into White and it didn't work because like it was just like you know, he he perk Perkin, and they were they were just switching off and they just they were not letting him get off because they didn't like they didn't like thet Yeah, KG, they had the motherfucker's a rotate on the White. Yeah, like they weren't they weren't trying to see it, and I think I just felt like we kept force feeding. So after a while, you know, Rashard uh one on one side of the other side, we kind of just sitting there and trying to force feed. Force feed wasn't working. And then when the ball started coming back out, we weren't hitting shot because I remember, I remember we yeah, man, we just it just changes. I'm like, no, let's open the floor up, Let's open the floor. We want to make their big we want to make the guard come in and then get get a white going down. But when the white rolled down to the Cylina doing the duck in, what are you doing that? I couldn't do nothing, you know what I'm saying. So that's that was the thing. So we kind of changed it up. And it was unfortunate because we got we lost to them at six, and we felt that I definitely felt like that that was our chance, uh to kind of get it done. Like we're a game, a game or two away from back in the finals and probably gonna see the Lakers again. Y'all was at your best man to pick and roll when you when you you was at the pick and roll at the top of the key, bringing it up and running the pick and roll, and I got shooters everywhere. That's why, because we couldn't stop so crazy. That was so crazy because you had a veteran squad and the ball move, bro, It's like, who need to get the ball? Who was open? Was gonna get the ball? I have space in it? Everything? Yea was was your offense was running clock like like everybody's on the same page. Yeah, because you have a veteran group. But it was about winning, bro, Like I really thought. I thought your headed to a head on finals rematch with the Lakers man and that ship would have been a war, you know what I mean? That ship would have That ship would have been a blast, but should have would have cult it didn't happen. And that year I got hold on what is it like playing with Matt though? What is it like being a match teammate? And it's it's it's like I'm saying, it's one of the Yeah, so I know what it's like being his real life brother. You know what I'm saying, And and and and that and that ship. Oh my god, that's the whole other story. But it's crazy as as we go. As we you know it's funny. So that was our younger years, the first thing in Orlando, and it was just like it is what it is. It's like as soon as we side, I was like, oh, bro, we got yeah real one, like we're about to go over defense shoot like like I told you. It was just like you understood what it was and like, A that's what I said to beat. It was like, bro, you know he was down to get down with anybody for his team. It is what it is. And and and then when you see that, it makes you when he go jump out there in in in the uh in the rat hole, like bro, like dog were with you, Bro, like you do that for us. We got your back to it like I said, that's why he said he he had me out there. We're trying to win the game. I'm like, bro, I'm like kick down now like they're doing like that. Like it was just cool, Like I mean, he's just it was contagious on who he isn't bro, Like people say what they want to say about them, Bro, Like like that's what the loyal love the game and he's gonna play it one way. Bro, I'm playing my way. I'm abouna play hard notes like here a football player like you, you coming at me, I'm gonna hit you back, bro, Like that is what it is, Like, that's just how you want to that, right, That's what I'm saying. And it's like, you know, like and I'm you're gonna have to back those words up. If you're gonna talk ship to me, then I'm gonna see what's really good like or do you mean that? Let's go that then mean and that's what it was. And then as we get to our second stint, as we get older, like you know it was, it's the same thing. And then down I'm playing with a team full of We had a whole kennel of dogs. We used to talk about that all the time, like look at this locker room. We could have won any fight. We was. We was a solid team. Everybody got hurt, but we could have won any fight. Yeah hell yeah. So tell me what it's like from being a go to superstar throughout your career to being that solid veteran presence. We hear about you being in the locker room, a mentor, a coach, a father figured almost some guys talk to us, how you know, like you you're some guys don't fall from startom gracefully, and that's why they kind of end up out the league before they really want to. You were able to gracefully find your place to be. Like you said, you can still compete, you can still play, you can still give minutes, but you understand that you know your role was to get these younger guys going. What kind of mental barrier or hurdles did you have to take to get to that process. So once I got traded from Orlando the Phoenix, we're playing playing and all of a sudden we were losing, we weren't in the playoffs, and they put me on. They wanted me to come off the bench. Bro, that that that conversation. Sometimes being a go to guy, it's a shot to you, to you, to your ego, and uh it was kind of like running by me again. Okay cool and and for me, Bro, I just like I said, I've been saying the whole time, I just love playing ball, man. I just love a hoop and I just want to hoop. So I remember um hearing that and going home that day, I was like, Bro, not like this, man, this is crazy. You know what I'm saying. After being a surprise trade. I didn't know I was gonna get trade out of Orlando, and we were right there. We were fourth to fifth, uh best, had the fourth fifth best record when I got traded, you know what I'm saying. So I'm like, bro, what's good? But you know, it is what it is. So I got there, and you know, the team wasn't good, but I'm now playing with Steve Dash and I'm like, bro, this is I get a chance player, another point guard, great point guard, and Grant of course, but it was just it was just different. Bro. We weren't winning, Steve got hurt, Grant got hurt a little bit, and then now it's just a reserve role. And it's kind of like I gotta figure out how to how to master this point blank. And so I started just look in the mirror, first of all, and one thing I said, and and not that I was questioning, but it's kind of reassures like you love this game, right, You're trying to stick here as long as you can, right, Okay, cool, So let's figure this out. So I started looking at the old film of Vinnie Johnson, you know, for from all the you know, old heads who who know who Vinnie Johnson is let's started watching Michael. I started watching the Great Six Men of the Game and and and watching how they prepared themselves and how they was ready to go to Who's you call Vinnie Johnson off the bitch? But you had to be ready. He was ready to go, Jason Terry was ready to go. Your notally was ready to go. You know that and stuff. He was ready to go soon he call his name. He was ready to go. So I had to figure out how to be a star in my new role and and and and be effective and and once it was Buffy at first, Bro, I ain't got lot to you, like obviously, like, oh man, I'm used to kind of getting into the game and and and and and and roll it as I need to. But now as when you come off the bench, it's like it's go time immediately. And uh. Once I got used to it, everything took off and I was like, it's not so bad, and I'm gonna I'm gonna be a star in my role. I let that go to guy different though, because like when when I have coaches say go to guys, are you to go to guy? I think of they saying that you got confidence to take the shot just like you would taking in the first quarter. A lot of guys on a lot of guys don't have the confidence like this. Shooters that come along in the NBA are knocked down shooters. They shoot forty eight percent forty percent from the free through from the peopt line of whole career. You give him the ball in the fourth quarter three seconds left, nothing, no confidence. So I think when they say you a go to guy or the go to guy of the team, I think they know you got confidence to shoot that shot and have the comment of like, and That's what I'm gonna say to that is um So my goal was, regardless of if I'm starting to not, I want to finish the game. I want to be that reliable guys like like that go to when you need a bucket. Yeah, regardless, Okay, we know he started, but that this guy has proven and we know he's not afraid to take the big shot. And I've never been afraid to take the big shot on a big stage or a small stage or any stage at all. And and and I've been willing to deal with it. I think y'all, y'all chime in with this and and tell what you think about this. But I feel like guys, there's some guys who are afraid to take the big shot in the fourth quarter because they're afraid of the backlash or what people gonna say if you're afraid. Yeah, Kobe said he missed thirty straight shots and take the next ten. He didn't give a fun And that's the kind of mentality you have to have. I think you made it crazy great point just a second ago. I mean, starting is great, and people talk about starters. This isn't that, But guys who really know, it's about who finishes the game. Who's that Who a starter, who's on the floor in the last three minutes. It's really what matters. Right, you could be a starter, bro. You could be a starter and the first three minutes, bro, and then and cock the second quarter right right, Like you know, it's like it's great, you want to be you want if you want to be a starter in a closer Yeah, I want to I want to close the game. That's when you get pride of myself. Yeah, I prided myself on being in there at the end of the game because they know we're gonna hate some stops and I'm gonna hit knocked down a couple of big shots, like that's what people. You don't start, you know this. You know starting is great and everyone sees the starters, but now their last motherfucking three minutes? Did see you close it? Though? Right? You don't see me started Mat mat us to come off the bench. We just start goose, you know what I'm saying. But at the end of games, Matt is at the four. But the three we've always finished. We always finished the game with small ball. Ye I had to go to president Day. How was it like working with Trade? Younger, young guys like John Collins. I know these guys in the future of the NBA, and I know you're giving them the right game. You see me around a lot. I come to the games and I see I see how you beat with him. But it's refreshing to see how they respect you, because you get the same respect from guys your age. How was it giving them advice and being around those young guys? It was crazy. It's crazy because you know, I look at Trade because I played against his pops in college. You know, when he played for Texas Tech. I don't know if if you remember Darvin Ham when he broke the back. Yeah, Trades Dad was on that team, which is your coach. Yeah you want your coaches now though, right, so so you know what I'm saying. Like so, so it's it's crazy to see him, but like just to see the one thing I was impressed in Trade more so than anything outside anything basketball, was how he was able to handle the media. So when we came up and came to the league, like it was, it was no social media like but this it was used to to to the big stages in the social stage already like it is. He he knew how to handle that. So it's been cool, Like I mean, you just see how young guys they just got allow to learn and they're they're so talented, but learning the actual game of basketball is different than being good at basketball. To me, like you could be you could be good, but it's a bunch of dudes who are athletic. It's a bunch of dudes who can do this. But when it comes down to playoff basketball, that's when you see what what what you got? And and so that's right now, my goal is to try to prepare these guys, and it's it's impossible to to to to teach a young guy and and and and spit game to him about what the playoffs are like until you actually get there, but until you actually playing a playoff game. But I can tell but every shot matters. I can tell you the whole world is really watching because it ain't. But so many teams playing, I can tell you it's gonna be packed every night, all that stuff like until you until you feel it and you feel how your body feels and how nervous you are when they hammer all the time, Like every possession matters until you go through that, it's just it don't matter. So like it's been fun to teach them, and you know, I try to try to spit game and and and and explain to them the history of the game and how Guy's handling, and you know, it's always the debates about who's this, who's that. But I'm like, bro, you you don't establish yourself until you you don't done done something in the playoffs, thank you. Well, that's why I think. That's why I think Milwaukee doesn't get there, just Doe, because they've been able to dominate the regular seasons kind of like patient Peyton Manning in the Indianapolis coach used to be a great regular season team, great regular season team, m VP numbers, and then in the playoffs they would, you know, they would come up short. So that's why I think Milwaukee doesn't get the respect they get because hell of a team. Jannice is a superstar, but players know you gotta earn that in the playoffs straight, all right, that's where you that's where you make your real money, that's where you make your name. So just like we talked about these legendary guys in Hall of Fame, which guys are thriving and wanted to be Like, what you're doing the regular season is admirable and it's it's it's nice. But people a people are talking. Yes, they're talking about how much of a superstar you are in the playoffs, whether you played four games or you played for four rounds. Yeah you're going in four games? Bro, you ain't you ain't. You ain't gonna get that respect. You ain't gonna get that That that not you looking for. But you can say, oh, because I score, you average twenty something the game, So what don't matter? Dogs come out in regular season? Yeah? Who do you? Who do you? Who do you feel like? Uh? Looking at had the best chance to win the finals this year. I think, look, you asked me this question or not you know that game. It's kind of hard to answer that question where you're still in the league. Bro. But Vince, no, goddamn one, they didn't have no shots, so he can still no, we didn't have a shot. We Hey, they can give us twenty games play. We can't make it, okay, so we so we um I was I was trying to spam man. I was trying to think career. I think Milwaukee got a legit shot in the East, and then I mean you can go back and forth of the Lakers and the Clippers. Uh, that's must see TV. I hope if this season come back, I hope it comes down to Lakers Clippers in the instead of an early earlier I see, you know what I'm saying. I just I hope so, because that's that's what we need, you know. The East. I would like that. I honestly would like to see uh Toronto or or or or Philly. I don't know. I just don't know about Philly. Boston Young Boston head in their stride right before this ship has stopped. So it's that's the four teams in the East, like you know, but I think Toronto, Boston, Philly, Milwaukee. I think Milwaukee still comes out of that. And uh, you know, I still think the Western Conference gonna pull it off. The Miami gonna surprised somebody. Then that's another square. That's that's the other squad of Miami. Something. Miami is tough. But hey, this this, this, this off time is crucial to to a young squad, a veteran squad. I like that because now they're rein a gibe. You know, had some time off, but it ain't it now like young guys like you know, young guys now they come up. Okay, yeah, they're gonna try to lock back in and get ready, but no, bro, it ain't you lock it back into what they don't really know like these veterans too. So I think that's gonna play a key role into the second part of the season too, until when we get back to what did you think when you saw Donovan Mitchell Honor and you were in your Raptor's jersey in the dunk contest? That was crazy, man, that was crazy. Uh you know, uh, I don't watch it often, you know, I don't know if I've ever said that I probably I don't watch the dunk contest often and and when I heard but I was in the Bahamas when that when that happened, and I was walking around, and I heard the guys like, Hey, just that this guy because he didn't know he was Scott got your jersey on the dunk contest. So and I'll go up to and look at And so I actually watched that. It was pretty dope, you know what I'm saying, because you know, I I'm on when people mentioned my name or or or or or or show love like that. Bro, I'm definitely appreciative. Like I've been around for a long time, but like these guys, I'm I'm so much older than these guys. And that just shows he's a historian of the game. And you know, it was dope to see he did. He showed love. And Terrence Ross actually did as well, Uh show some love. So that's that's that's that's crazy to me. Who are your top five doctors of all time? End game dunkers, top five top five end game duckers of all time? You can put something huh end game, end game, end game, end game. So I'm still gonna give Dominique that Yeah, highlight film. Yeah. Uh, dunkers in the league end game. Uh and see I'm looking at it like I'm talking about not not just dunking on people, talking about guys that that had that some dunk contest dunks like who That's what I'm talking about in the game, like that's you know, and you know it's hard to the name guys currently playing, you know what I'm saying. So there's one of them that y'all probably can guess. You know what I'm saying. I say, Josh Smith was out there doing something crazy. You know. You know, I'm gonna give you one to go ahead, stroke my swift who man and see and stroke out. He wasn't out letting people. He was one step dunking on people and then gang bang and then throwing up. He was throwing that ship up after two. The young Nick is dunking out the ball, bro It's just so many people that yourself of course, all right, yeah, for sure, sure I was trying to do whatever, Like if you put me on the fast break and I had time to think about it, I was gonna try to contest to me. You're you're you're the greatest in game. Dunker of all time to me, and that's what it would all due respect to other people, like you were the greatest in game dunkers whatever, But I wasn't afraid I wouldn't camp on the break and on people. People couldn't funk with you, bro, Yeah, that was my problem. That was my only problem. Like, when I had a lot of time to think about it, you put me on the break, and if I just gonna sound crazy when I said so, my bad. So when I jumped into air, initially I'm thinking I'm gonna do something like leaner or whatever, and I might end up get up there and be like, no, I'm gonna win mill it just because you know, Jack, imagine being able to think once you get up there, Like we're thinking, Okay, I got the ball, I'm dribbling, I'm at half court thinking about this nigd jumps. So I'm gonna change my mind twice, right, I'm trying to My initial thoughts for Duncan, especially when I was younger, never ended up being the actual dunk, uh, because sometimes like there was a there was a dunk and I played against the Chicago Bulls and I was on a fast break and I was going by myself. There's another player running me down, so he jumped to trying to jump over me. I end up going under him and doing a one leg, one ft wind meal. But that wasn't my initial plan on the dunk. You know, you know, you know what's funny before the show came out on Somebody, it's on, It's on I g today. That's Dunky talking about you on the fast breaking you go, you go from my other side with one hand and one minute backwards like that. Yeah, it was like some I'm saying I say so, it was more like, yeah, I was playing it. I just played it by a year, bro, Like you know, I when I said I'm gonna dunk, I'm gonna dunkey, but I'm gonna see what you trying to do, because like you said, you had to shop blockers of the world, who's like, okay, I know they're gonna jump, But then you had like the Darryl Armstrongs of the world was trying to Boy, I was dub I was dumb. I remember catching a lot backwards on Black College and he's sitting in my chest and I'm dunking about back. It's like, bro, what's you doing, Man, I swear to guy, I lever forget that. So, I mean it just defends that's crazy. Toughest matchup for you. Who's that one opponent throughout your crew? Who was the toughest matchup that toughest is tough to name one, but I'm gonna say. I'm gonna name one guy who people probably never expects, free Will. And I say free Will because he didn't care and s free did not get tired. Yeah, he had a motor. He did not get tired. Bro, I don't care what he was doing. So he was one of the ones for when I first when I first got in the league, Bro, I couldn't I could not figure out Scottie Pippen bro in the hand checking in the hand checking there, like he was so crafty Martin quick with it, but like you run off screens, or he had tapping in your in your stomach while you're shooting, or just push your hip a little, you know all that stuff that used to be Yeah, man, he had it all. I used to be like, ref you don't see this, He's like and back then referees talk to you like, man, stop crying and play, Yeah, stop crying to play. Like that's Joey Crawford, young Joey Crawford or well you know the younger Joey Crawford. Yeah, bro, he talked to you bad, like so him Bruce Bowing in the beginning. And once I figure out Bruce, it was it was nothing. But at first, like you know, all the dirty tricks he had, uh uh shoot so many Bruce played defense with his feet, with his feet, hands, knees. You know. It's so many guys like like that, uh that you like y'all for sure, you know not that's that's not because y'all here, but like just playing against y'all, because guys like that. I had to work and I had to figure it out. Like it wasn't easy t a yeah, you know in Boston, you know. So so there's there's a bunch of guys, um man. It's like that's just a few that I can name off offhand. And I'm gonna be mad later on because I'm gonna thinking about this. I'm gonna text y'all and be like, bro, I forgot about somebody. But Spreetwell was a good call. Though Spreetwell was a mother. Yeah, I think I'm Yeah, he's the first person I think of it. Is it Golden Station or Knicks free well for you? Right? Yeah, Nick's free well. Bro, I had to heart that that year they swept us. Man. Yeah, so two thousand three, you're the leading vote getter in the league. Uh, MJ's last year. You decided to give MJ your starting spot. Talk to us about that? Basically, yeah, I decided, But it was it was it was encouraged by the league that it was a good idea, you know, but by the powers that be it was probably a good idea that MJ starts in his last his last All Star game. I ain't no food, you know what I'm saying, Yeah, I ain't no food. First of all, like we all look up the MJ and and he's a hero. And like, Bro, that that's that's a memory that nobody else can contend talk about, like they can't be that can't be duplicated. But I got a story, Like I could tell this story forever, Like you'd be like, oh man, nobody else can say that. Like, and MJ wouldn't take the spot, Bro. Like when they said it's probably good, I was like, Bro, I was giving this is m J last year. Bro, And you're not starting, but I I got I got a chance to kind of do this again. This is you, this is your time. MJ so and so I pulled them aside, but it was all day in the morning practice, whatever you want to call it. I was like, m J bro, take no, no, no, you earned this whatever, alright, cool about argue. So we get down there right before we running out and said, m J bro to take the spot. You're gonna start. Bro, I said, if you don't take the spot, I'm gonna stay in the back and I ain't gonna come out. It's not what I said. I said, I'm not getting blackballed from the league because you you're talking about just you know you earned it? Yeah, okay, cool, I earned it. We know that, but you're starting. Before right before they called him for the starting lineup, he still wouldn't go. You see it. The last minute is where he took it. If you see it, the last minute, he takes thirt and he go out there, but he would not go. I was like, bro, please please just go because I'm gonna walk to the back and I ain't happened. So he takes it, and it was like I was like, man, thank god Bron because that's deal though, because you got so yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's it's all good. But like I'm thinking there to say, I gave m his last start and then what happened that fade away? Bro? He hit the right yea perfect man, And I think the NBA messed up. Bro. I think the NBA messed up. They're trying to be all technical and stuff. So m J, y'all might remember, Yeah, y'all definitely remb me up and around. MJ hit the fade away and they called the time out. We're trying to get the game stopped right there. Yeah, we're the game should have been stopped right there. O't forget the one point two seconds or two how many many seconds left? Forget all that, the game over the greatest of all times just camped off his most famous shot, never in the in the All Star Game. It should be old. I think they dropped the ball in that. Any new hobby you've taken up since you've been in quarantine golf, that's it, right, that's no call of duty. So I'm like, okay, I'll say that. I will say that now. This first thing, I pulled out the PS four because I had one PS four somewhere and I tried Call of Duty and I liked it. I'm guilty too, but I played ever so often, so I'll say I tried. I don't picked up the Call of Duty. Trying to play video games again. The video I feel like it's giving me vertigo though, I feel like Call of Duty is giving me vertigo. PTSD all that, but everything is just off now because the screen be all up and down, and like many I'm like, you gotta think how video games started when we first started playing video games, like like graphic yeah, right there. One Megabody was trash. Last movie you watched, the Bad Boys movie, I haven't seen that. You have the new Bad Boys, the new one, the one Yeah It's pretty, It's it's called Yeah. I had to support in regardless. I was gonna support regardless type of music you poke with. What all did you poke with that? People would be surprised to hear that you listen to I'm all over the place man, Being that I played in music and I have a love for music, I listened a little bit of everybody. Um. Mystical was a I was a Mystical fan growing up, and then I also was Wu Tang Fan. So I listened to woo um now a little bit of everybody. I mean, I give everybody a shot. I do. I mean, even if if it ain't for me, I give everybody shot because, like you said, some people like catchy catchy hooks is is what it is now. You know, I'm a lyricist. I like lyrics. Who Who's who? Who's spitting some substance? Yea who? You know what I'm saying. So that's where I am. But I give some guys. I give guys a shot. You know what I'm saying. Kid, I still listen to the baby right now is somebody I've been listening to kind of catching You gotta get right, I gotta get right. Rich some some love too, bro, because he showed me some love, man, did he? Yeah? He put my name in the song man, Yeah, yeah, in the riom. It's kind of yeah. I mean, I'm funny to three years old, funniest teammate you've ever had. Man, That's that's tough. That's tough. I had to dude my name with Jabari Smith. I heard he was funny. Okay, okay, you are not. I am, Bro, Oh my god, that might be what's the funniest character bro Like I had him in Jersey, bro Like, he is funny is hell and you yeah, yeah, yeah, I got put him up there. T A is funny, brod Like funny as hell. Man, It's it's yeah, I'm gonna stick with your bar. It's so many bright it's over twenty two years. You you had a lot of teammates, a lot of Yeah, but as soon as you say that, the first one that came to mind with the bar Smith, right, Yeah, that's all the time. B best city to travel to for games, the Garden. Let I've had some some some pretty special nights, and I've had some disappointed nights. But it's something about going into like the Garden. That's just it. It's history, it's legendary. It's a lot of a lot of the stars of stars have done some great stuff, some great things in there. So every time I walk in there, I just I love it. That's what I mean. It's nothing better. They need to try to get that team right, man, because basketball is so much better. When the next irrelevant, absolutely absolutely final question, historical sitdowns, whether it be taking shots, having some cock hills, drinking wine, Who are five people, not counting yourself. You'd want to have at the table anyone dead or alive for just a night a dope conversation. Um, you know, you know, you know VC technical man, he's gonna break his brain trying to think about this. Man. Yeah, I know you all right, give me I want Obama give me uh Big and Poc both of them. Yep, two more, give me. Give me Martin Lutheran, h the King and uh Dr j oh Julie. And I like that he snuck that one. He snuck that in there. You gotta have some nice if you gotta have a player at the table. So so Obama, Pock, Biggie, MLK, Julius, Irvin, and yourself. That's yeah, like that's this I mean, and I picked. I'm trying to pick people. That's like you, You're talking about the entire room. We're talking about everything. You can't anything you want to talk about. They can hooping to smoke to music like you know, I want to I'm I'm, I'm I want to learn a little bit. I'm one of those guys. I like to learn a little bit about a lot of things. So if I can't learn it all through that group, I ain't meant to know it. And then Jack is right down the street. Y'all can hit the strip cloud right after that dinner. What you said, Hey, Man, that's a rap man, Vince. We appreciate your time. Man, it was an honor getting to play with you. Bro. If that was your final shot, man, twenty two years, you held it down. You made a lot of people proud, your legend, Hall of Famer. Fuck anyone who don't like that. But we appreciate you, man. We just want to let you know, Man, we appreciate your run. Brought twenty two years the longest career in NBA history. Man, that has a lot to do with men, just who you are as a person. And thank you. Man. I appreciate it. I've heard you say that before. Man, I appreciate it. Uh are you saying that? Man? It's been a pleasure, obviously battling both of you and knowing you guys for all these years and the support, so it's it's been it's been a pleasure. And thanks for having me on tournament and called tournament. I'm gonna come play. Jack's gonna come drive my car. We're gonna be out there just when you when you bring yours back. Let me know, I mean no doubt, No doubt. Man, that's a wrap uh special edition with the one and only Vince Carter. You can catch this on Showtime Basketball. YouTube are all platforms, streaming podcasts, all love them. It's something about how this place forms a different kind of person. On my high school team, we have five guys make the NBA. We had the County Rock you mentioned prend Short dis County. People know it's about it's the meta of basketball. There are those who come before us, upon whose shoulders we stand here for this area. You have to have tough scares. The gym became the thank you p G. County guys provide buckets for America Press. Georgia packs a lot of power, a lot of character. It's nothing that you can do to stop that competitive and we're pushing the community and a culture for there's just in the water. This life was all I ever wanted. I'm not leaving, not yet. I was hoping you can say that we gotta hit the streets, make some money. Pople like us, les destroy paple like him. Buckle up, Get Showtime free at showtime dot com.

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All The Smoke

ALL THE SMOKE pairs two of the most outspoken and controversial players of their time. Known as fier 
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