M hmm. Everything she does. That's because she never loses sight of what's important. Putting on a military transport tonight. Hell, yes, he's backing down on either side. We have a bona fide crisis. We'll follow it up together, get to the truth. I did what had to be done. Sports is being a place for social and political movements. It always has been. This was our moment to that people know how we felt as a team. Welcome back all the smoke, my brother Jack, and we're back. We're back. We got a special guest today, Jamil Hill Wallace. Right. Yeah, I did change my last name, but professionally still Jamal Hill. Okay, thank you, congratulations, thank you. I appreciated it. Um. You know, we've been in it for a couple of months now, being married, and so far he hasn't wanted to divorce me yet. How did you guys need to heard? You both went to Michigan State. Did to start there or yes? And no, we both went to Michigan State. But I'm a cougar, so he is five years younger than me. So we actually met at home. We actually met at homecoming. Um. I had gone back to Michigan State because I was the grand marshal of the homecoming parade. And when your grandmar show, you gotta shake hands, kiss some babies, walk around and talk to people. And so we were. They were taking me around at different tailgates, and one of ones they took me to was when I was going to wind up at Anyway. It was the Black lum Not tailgate, and I saw a friend of mine that we didn't figure out obviously till I met him that it was also a friend of his. So I'm talking to this friend and he comes walking up and you know, um, we're kind of checking each other out and a little flirting going on, and so we kind of left it there. And later that night I saw him at at the Black Alumni party. UM DJ by mc light shout out and then so we saw each other, and it's one of those things where I was like, now, what are the odds that the fine guys saw the tailgate will also be here at the dance. So you know, I did that thing that women do is that I'm sure you gentlemen have been on the receiving end of this, but we'll give you a look like you've been bringing your ass over here, right. So I gave him that look. He came over and we talked and the rest, as they say history, you had. You had all my home girls at you at the wedding part I said, y'all oversee is having a good time. We were, Yeah, we had a great time. So some you know people you might know Carrie Championship with one of my bride's maids and the bachelorte party which was a few months trigger Tray as we call her in these streets. Amina who's saying who uh is coordinating producer for NBA Countdown on ESPN. So ESPN was well represented, uh in my bridal party, in my bride's maid or my maid of honor Kelly Carter who is a senior entertainment writer for The Undefeated. So we did the wedding which was incredible, had music Soul Child sing me down which was great. And then afterwards we went on a honeymoon for three weeks, so okay, we were gone, yeah to Kenya, Dubai, Abu Dhabi and the Maldives. So it was it was a dream wedding, dream honeymoon. And so we're still kind of riding good job, great job, great job. We always kind of hear obviously from a guy's point of view of you know, guy being in the spotlight. You're in the spot like, you have a tremendous platform. How does that dynamic work being married with a Well, it's interesting because, um so his nickname became oh boy, my old boy, because back when I was doing television every day on ESPN, my former co host Michael Smith shout out to him one of my dear friends. Uh. He nicknamed him that because there was like early on in our relationship. I tagged him in a photo and put it on Instagram, and he got like a thousand requests, and I was thinking, like, I'd be damn, I had these helps all over the meat right in front of all. But not only that, I felt like maybe and he didn't give me any indication to this, but just me just trying to realize that dynamic you talked about. I wanted to give him some time to kind of get used to that, because he didn't sign up to be dating somebody who was on TV every day and had a public profile. He didn't sign up for that intrusion it can sometimes make in your life. So after that he was just called old boy. Nobody knew his name. And one of the early tests, if you will, in our relationship was our first SPS. So we go to the SPS and a matter of fact, um, you know the SPS. You see how that environment is mass celebrities, athletes, you know who's who and all that, and he was just himself. He was just comfortable. Um, he wasn't fanning out, he wasn't acting different, you know, he didn't act insecure, he didn't like none of that stuff. Like. He was just real chill. And I was like, oh, ship, yeah, my wife, I'm good, I'm good. Well, you know that there's there's upside and downside with that, okay, because again suddenly you have a dual public persona, and it's certainly intensified now that you know we're married. Our our wedding was covered by essence and all this publicity, and then once people started to figure out that we were seriously dating, there would be blog posts about who is this dude that she's with and all that kind of thing. But he always handled it well and in stride. He's never you know, acting funny about it. I've certainly, um not necessarily been in full scale relationships, but I've certainly dated dudes that I could tell it was going to be a problem. And knowing a lot of women who are in television in this industry, they have definitely dealt with that where it's just every dude you can't bring to the like you just can't. You just can't, you know, because a bit right, you know what, maybe the half the party, but yeah, I mean, and just from a standpoint is that people have to know how to how to act in certain situations. And um, you know he always was just you know, he always batted a thousand when it came to that, so I knew, you know, it would work. And he you know, he never tripped about especially being in this business. Unfortunately, your salary, whether true or not true, it's always made public. And so it was never a thing whereas somebody joked and called him stamping or something like that, like he didn't give a damn about that or whatever. Look, there's a lot of dudes that would trade a place pretty much trade a place and be with a stampinias right now, you know what I'm saying. I never said that. I never said that. I've never said that. I never said that's never said that, never, Right, now that's so funny. Ship Man mad It's so funny. Ship Oprah, gotta high man. You gotta be careful, damn singleheadedly shut down the beef. I'm gonna keep I'm gonna keep saying. One day, Regina Hall, what that's your celebrity front and Regina, you see this? Okay, I'll put in a good word. I put in a good word for you. Heard that. It's on camera? All right? So where did your journalism journey start? Uh? Well, it's started really young. Um. Most times, you know, growing up, you change professions or things you think you want to do multiple times. You know, one week you might want to be a fireman and next week you might want to be something else. But I always wanted to do this, and I had a love of sports very early on. It always came very naturally. I don't remember ever not loving sports. So I was like the neighborhood tom boy and you know, out there playing baseball and football, flipping off garages with the guys and you know, just kind of hanging out. And when you're the girl in a company of like little boys or whatever, they're gonna always try to try you. You know what I'm saying. So when people would ask me years later, how is it that you're at this desk with this athlete and this man and you just are comfortable to hold your own I was like, well, it goes back to, you know, growing up in Detroit in the hood. It's like, y'all ain gonna take it easy on me just because I'm a girl. So I learned you talk about my mama, I'm talking about your mama right back. You know, you learned the roast and go back and forth. And so I was always comfortable, um being in that like sort of environment with boys and men. So I played a lot of sports, and I also love to read. I was a voracious reader, had a library card, love to write. UM wrote poetry short stories every city I live in. I was thinking about like I had one. It's not warn especially you know, you have to do a desimal system to get the books process process. So we don't nothing about what they called stuff when you put the plastic go over to make sure you don't break the library car, what's they called laminated. I even did that and still didn't use it. If freshs all get out, I bet your notebook was well I was. I was a neurse, so I love to read and I just had this love of language. And in high school I took a high school journalism class where I essentially wrote for the school paper, and it kind of started there. And the way that papers are high school papers were produced in Detroit then is you. They put a special insert in in the Detroit Free Press where once a month you could read all the high school newspapers in the city because they gave everybody one page. So we had to go to a professional news room to put our paper together. So the moment I walked in the newsroom, it was like love at first sight. I was like, oh, these people are crazy. They're like running around. It was all this energy and just the idea of being able to make a living covering something that I participated in and loved to watch. It just seemed like, hey, this is one plus one equal to So I couldn't do math. I was terrible as science, so literally there was nothing else I was meant to do. But this. They always asked you, the old guidance counsel, the question you know that you love it and have a passion for it, if it's something you would do for free, like y'all would play back. Y'all did play basketball at one point for free right, And so I felt the same way about writing a journalism. And I never expected to be on TV. That was never in the plan. I just wanted to write for newspapers. My dream job was actually the work of Sports Illustrated because when I was coming up that was working for the magazine and writing cover stories like I wanted to do that. And eventually I wound up at ESPN, and when I saw them checks look differently when you on TV, that's when I made the decision, like, you know what, this TV thing ain't bad after all. So it's just been an evolution. But at the base of it, I still do you know, all the things that I did as a writer. We talk to people, have good conversations. Hopefully they tell you something they didn't know, give you some insight and some introspection, and put history and what's happening now in the context for other people. So it just hasn't changed. It's since the methods are different because of technology. I think you touched on it a little bit, But tell us more about your upbringing, which made you someone who can hold your own someone who was outspoken, someone who's not afraid to hold your tongue. Tell me about your your childhood. Well, Um, in addition to you know, being in the neighborhood tomboy, I think another big component why some of the you know, challenges and just obstacles you'll generally face just being black in America, being a black woman in corporate America and making your way in media, is that you know, when you grow up and um, you know, we were on food stands for a good bit of my childhood, grew up poor. My parents are both recovering drug addicts. Uh so I saw a lot growing up, and so um, some of the problems I would face later, I could put them into perspective because you know I used to I made this joke all the time, especially when it came to the controversy I had with the President. And it's true. It's like, you know, Donald Trump tweaked me and saying that I should be fired and the White House color would be fired. It's like literally the six hundred thousands worst thing that's ever happened to me. Like it wouldn't even make the top team. So it's like I've damn about a tweet alright, cool, thanks for putting my name in your mouth. Appreciated. So it's just like that was not um. It was certainly created some adverse situations for me as a result, but it was just it's nothing compared to um, you know, seeing your mother go through you know, rehab, or seeing your your dad still have Heroin marks on his on his arm and and his fingers and stuff like. It's nothing compared with life experience. Yeah, exactly. And so you know, thankfully, by the grace of God, they've both they've been you know, in recovery for a long time, so that hasn't been an issue in a while. But the fact of the matter is is that coming from that environment, this other stuff is just like, yeah, it's hard, but it ain't that you know, it ain't even closed. So I think having that perspective has allowed me to not only approach this work with a bit of a chip on my shoulder, it's also as whatever accolades come when people love me, don't love me, hate me, whatever it is, I can kind of keep it all level because of some of the things that I've been through. That's why that's why I really want to know about your upbringing. Because I was telling them earlier. As athletes, we always get interviewed and acts of how we bring how we was brought up in the first thing you say, man, we grew up in the hood, we grew up poor, But we never hear that from women, and and we go through the same thing. It's the same thing, we just don't hear from women. So it's good to hear that from you because y'all go through the same things. The struggles in the ghet was the same. For what what male and women? You know what I'm saying, So it's good to hear that from you because women don't get to tell lay side of how they growing up and how growing up poor and the struggles affected them. But it made you tougher, And it's exactly. It's easy to see why you can carry yourself in a room full of men because of your It's easy to see that. Yeah, I mean, it is important that people understand that, you know, the cycle and the shame that comes with poverty. It's just it's really pervasive, and men and women may process it differently and may make us act and behave as adults in different way, but we're still left with the same generational trauma. I mean me and my husband, Uh, we often Joe because he's also um from the city of Detroit. UM. And while you know, economically he was a little bit better than me, we still grew up in the same kind of environments and that is one of the things that we kind of couldn't relate to with each other. But we talked about it all the time, about having hood PTSD, you know, and we live of you know, in the good part of l A and um, Yeah, I see him do certain stuff. I'll be like, babe, we don't right, you know, certain habits. And that's not to say you should never keep your hood senses or I like to call them, yeah, like spidy senses like hood senses about you. But it's amazing, Um, the things that you grow up in, how you normalize it then you realize later as a dog at all. We make it look we make it look We do it, man, we make it looking like it's not when we get because I mean similar background. Both my parents were you know, we're addicted to drugs at a young age. And I've seen it in front of me, you know what I mean. So and then face racism and and being by racial So by the time I'm getting to NBA and my ships on TMZ and whatever, and then furthering that like in this corporate world, like there's nothing you can show me that's bigger than what I've already dealt with, you know what I mean. So that's why we handle it gracefully, be handling it with ease. We do it our way. But they also don't understand, and I think it takes somebody from that background to get it, especially talking to YouTube gentlemen, is that you both came into such money and something fame right um, to some degree, I did too much later than you all did. You did when you were young. There's no blueprint for that. Like when you guys coming from where you came from and then suddenly you have all this stuff. People don't understand that that's an adjustment period, like you have to learn on the flat and there's nobody to teach you how to do it. They say experience is the best teacher. What It's true, but you you you fall a lot doing those experiences trying to learn. You go through a lot of frustration enough and downs trying to get through it. But experience is the best teacher, and that's normally how we learned through our own funk ups. You don't get taught. I mean, I know personally, like my first four or five years bay the end every summer I was broke, I mean, no question, but family because not just not having to not know what, Like I got a bunch of money right now, and I got a bunch of homeboys, and I got family everything for him at one time. I want to do everything. I want to take everybody one time. And like you said, from having nothing to having this, you're not knowing that. Okay, it's gonna run out one day. But you have people in your life, you know so much six six years of your career, send me weeb. They might come to me, like Luke, bro enough is enough. Some people don't have that, and that's the ones that end up broke. You know, as all athletes, a lot of us we have to learn from experience. We don't get taught nothing, you know what I mean. And you know, coming from our backgrounds, it makes us strong enough to deal with it. You know what I'm saying. People don't understand that walk us through the path to finally getting two ESPN. Yeah, it was it was very accidental, and it was it was, It was very accidental. It's it's two people I could think, or one person I could think and one phrase I could think. I could think Willis mcgahey and the word baby mama. I got to ESPN, so when I was in Orlando, I was a columnist there and it was my first columnist job. And I think I often like to give athletes, especially black athletes, I need them to sometimes understand the full scope of what the media looks like. Y'all could tell when y'all in the locker room, for sure, a boy who's covering you. But at that point, I was the only black female columnists at a major daily newspaper, at a daily newspaper, excuse me in North America. Noticed I didn't say America, North America. I was one out of three hundred and five. And you know that that picture is has a lot to do with, frankly, the reason that black athletes are covered with the way that they're covered. So I'm the singular one, and so a lot of the things I wrote it would get a lot of attention just because there was nobody else in the country that was doing what I was doing, and I created this idea to do this series car riding with where it was very basic. I get in the car with an athlete, we right around. I asked them some questions. They answered fun for everybody. Boom, we're sticking in the paper, real simple. Willis mcgay he was the first person that I got to agree to do this series with me. And I'm in the car with him and it's a videographer for Tygrapher in the back, and you know, we're just shooting the ship. And I just asked him because I knew he uh he had a couple of kids by different mothers, and I was just like, I was like, hey, Willis, what do you think would be worse having a white for a baby mama? Right? And he gave some funny answer and it was hilarious when I'm up making the paper. And then they got picked up by some blogs because they were like, well, it's he goes in on baby mama, because he did go in one. He was sure it was funny, but he didn't go in and you know, there was no outrage, but it just got picked up and the paper I was working for they weren't really used to that kind of viral traffic necessarily, and for something like that, you know, going viral. So next thing I know, I'm getting called into essentially the principal's office. And the editor, older white lady, was livid. She had never heard the term baby mama. So she was like, how dare you put this in the paper? And this is beneath our standard. I was like, the word baby mama again, this is a testament to how white newspapers generally have been and still are. So I'm like, man, if I get fired over the word baby mama, it's gonna be some ship. You know. It was kind of crazy. So but that was the column. Because it went viral. That executive at ESPN noticed and at the time, uh, skip Bayliss was moving on from writing for ESPN dot com. He was going to work on a show called co Pizza, which became First Take, and so, uh it just so happened this editor that saw my stuff or not this editor, this executive at ESPN and saw my stuff, knew a friend of mine, and so that friend um linked us up and we went to dinner. The executive's name was Keith clean Scales. He he said, hey, do you wanna come? And interview because we need a general columnist for ESPN dot com and I think you know you'd be perfect for it. Just come up to Bristol, So I said, all right, cool, so I go and I got the job. And so that's why I said this was It's Gay and Baby Mama that got me into ESPN. ESPN was never my destination, probably because I thought of it as a TV property, but I originally went there as a writer. I did not go there to do broadcast. So I just was going to be writing columns and I would make some occasional TV appearances. And sometimes ignorance is not just bliss, but ignorance is helpful. And by that I mean this. When I first started doing TV, appearing on like Outside the Lines and then started doing Cold Pizza Slash first take. Um, I didn't take it very seriously because I'm like TV, who cares, you know? Um, print reporters thought that way of TV at that time. It was like bloods and crips like this would have been two thousand and six, So two thousands and sixes when I got to ESPN, and so early part of two thousand and seven when I'm starting to do a little bit more TV, because you know, the reason why I on Around the horn you see so many columnists or former columnists, is because we generate opinion, and so they want to put people on TV who have things to say. And so, yeah, I didn't take it seriously at all, and I was thinking, that's why allowed me to always be myself on TV, because I didn't know what I didn't know. So I'm just on there kicking it as far as I'm concerned, and I guess it kind of worked. And next thing I know, um, other shows started to call to and I'm on Jim Romans Burning, and then uh, sports reporters Around the Hornet. So I was just going through the cycle. You guys, no ideas, Um, you know, being there where you're on one show and next thing you know, you're on fifty shows. And so I look up a couple of years into my deal and the TV is literally fifty of what I do. And the thing that made me realize that this is something I needed to put all of my energy to into. Um, there are a lot of changes going on at ESPN dot com. That was one part of it. The other part was Matt Loward got paid. Uh in my first and second year at ESPN, and he got twenty million dollars a year, and I'm like, they actually would pay somebody on TV that much money, you know, Matt lowar Man, he was making bank and I just then I they're doing a little more research and just picking up, you know, some conversation at the water cooler when I whenever I would go to Bristol because at that point I didn't have to live there full time, and I was just like, met people really on TV making millions of dollars. This is crazy, Well now my focus must shift. So I just made a financial decision. It was something I was already comfortable with, so you know, why not try to pursue it, you know, full time. And that led into in part, um Mike and not linking up because we he got to ESPN maybe a year or two before I did, Um, but we met when we were both print reporters. But that led to us linking up and creating His and Hers and then Sports Center and the rest. As they say, it's history. Tell us a little bit about your guys have launched together with the the six o'clock Well, um, you know it is. It's a great lesson just in the sense of uh, it goes along with grass is not always greener and also goes along. Sometimes you don't know how good you have until us already gone. And when we got the promotion to Sports Center one, it wasn't one that we asked for. They came to us and asked us to do the six o'clock Sports Center. We were having a lot of fun doing his and Hers on all kind of crazy ship you shouldn't be putting on. Oh that was the Friday of the Boys in the hoods. Look still, I'm sure I'm not going to do that. We want to do that. We want to do some skis with you for the podcast. I'm in. I got my sad card and everything, you know. I mean, we being on a noon at ESPN two during that time because it was Mike and Mike First Take, then US and at one point it was Sports Nation and highly questionable. So it was branded as the opinion kind of fun network within the ESPN you know, family to the major leagues. That was the only the only fun show. Everything else was just straight ahead sports crazy. Yeah. I still, I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in ESPN history to ever drink of forty on TV. That a real forty. You a legend for that alone. Man, go to the store. I need a real forty because I gotta sell all this. But yeah, so we were in our creative space. They let us do whatever we wanted, and the audience like really loved it. It drew the attraction of the folks that around Sports Center. They were looking at that time to kind of shake up Sports Center a little bit, make it more personality branded. They started with s VP, giving him his own Sports Center, and so now they wanted to try to recreate that. But we created at six o'clock. So we go from um studio in I'm not gonna tell you what we used to say in Still for but y'all. So we were from studio in which we used to affetually refer to as a project because it's like a box we're in. They're selling tapes out the truck, you know, getting this daily TV ground studio in the car is to lookout on that first rock. That's it exactly, so you know. But we again we were giving total creative freedom and autonomy. We go from that to a seventeen million dollars studio cross campus in the new building the digital center, and it's got all the bells and whistles, super fancy. Overnight, our staff triples, we got all this, we got commercials um we're doing a media tour, like all the stuff we said we wanted for his and hers, and it's like boom here. It is the worst job I've ever had at ESPN was doing a six and block sports and I was like, sometimes, you know, things are just not what you think they're gonna be. The you know, Wortsen is a legacy brand, it's the it's ESPNS baby. They care about They don't care about ship else. They care about Sports Center, right, is what built the network literally, But it was not a fit for me at all because one, you know, it was a lot more people that had a lot to say about our show and they didn't know what then that was talking about. And that was a problem. Right. So creatively, we're used to being able to have our own space and autonomy and frankly we had earned that right and suddenly it's like, as Mike used to say all the time, we got all these cooks in the kitchen and don't nobody know how to make a meal. And it was it was tough. So from before the first launch of the show happened, the first show launch happened, It's like we were having a lot of creative issues and those continued and persisted as we tried to figure out what exactly this show is. We rushed on the air. I mean, we started the day after the super Bowl, which is good because your ratings are gonna be phenomenal. But at the same time, when we started, we just didn't know what the show was. We had not been given the proper time to figure that out. You know, Scott Van Held, I mean he probably got six months or more. I think I'm probably underselling. I think you got more time than that to figure out what that was. Even when they did get up really show, they got a lot of time to figure out what it was before it hit air. And anybody in television would tell you what you are on day one versus what you are a year later. Totally. I'm sure even now this podcast is different than the first one that you did, right, that's just the evolution of how it works. But we got caught up in some really unfortunate drama that had nothing to do with us, that was going on surrounding the narrative of ESPN. I mean, at this point, um, ESPN was about to experience their first layoffs and like god knows how many years it might have been their first layoffs ever and downside and you're not you guys know what this feels like. When your salaries put out there, people have a lot to say about what it is. And they were laying off people. People knew what our salary was, and suddenly it became Michael Jamal, why you're playing these two clowns and laying off all these people like at ESPN, and not to mention, there was this bubbling narrative that ESPN was too political and too liberal, which frankly didn't start until more black people start getting shows and more women and they started to becoming the face of the network. Then that ship started and so we became the post of children for everything that was going wrong at the network. And this is in our first couple of months. If you go back and look at some of the ship that was written about us, I mean, not only was some of it racist, but it was just like we were just caught up in this this narrative of bad headlines that we just could not get from a bunder, so all this is happening, and then, of course, you know, kind of the big explosion is when the Trump stuff happened. And even though I eventually left Sports Center, I didn't leave Sports Center because of Donald Trump. I left Sports Center because I wasn't happy. And that happened before uh that situation ever even materialized. M mmmmmm. The intro workings I think. I mean I explained to people like, you know, you look at ESPN, how you kind of look at Nike, you know what I mean, Like they're they're a set brand, you know, so what happens in there sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes political, sometimes bullshit, sometimes raised. But at the same time, it's just a constant cycle of whatever is going to happen almost the next man of kind of mentality, you know what I mean. So it may not always be you know, Carrie, she she and now she's leaving, Like why would she leave ESPN? You know, to to to better herself, to spread her wings, to kind of really fully be her and be unfiltered because people don't realize how to the book you have to be at ESPN. Yeah, I mean, well it's a it's a massive platform and they have their hands and a lot of different stuff. And it's no question, you know, from a media standpoint, it's the biggest brand in sports, and it's, you know, one of the biggest brands period. The Nike comparison is very appropriate. But even within that, there's a lot of limitations. And you know, Carrie, I think she just kind of reached her ceiling um and it's a ceiling that, you know, frankly wasn't once she created, and she knew that, and there's so much more she's capable of and can do. And so it was time ago. And for a lot of people, it's a destination job, but everybody's not destined to be their long term and I certainly fit that category because when it was time for me to leave, I felt like it was I had done everything there. I've been there twelve years and he's the best job I've ever had, the longest job I've ever had. The journalists I was the day I came to campus in November in two thousand and six is not the journalists I left, as in a good way, I grew more versatile, all those things happened, but there was only so much I could do there, and I wanted to be able to create another spaces um. Esp is a very possessive company. They're not gonna let you sit here, house here and do a bunch of work for everybody else. And certainly given that the network was cracking down about anchors and people in the commentary having commentary outside of sports, touch on that, I mean, that's because that's the sports and or is the platform. And then when you start talking about stuff other than sports that's still relevant to a lot of us. The fact that you're a black woman talking about it, yeah, well it was. It was crazy because we got accused of doing that a lot on sports and and we never did. I mean, we only talked about it when it made sense with the intersection of sports, new developments on Colin Kaepernick, um, you know, league business like things that kind of made sense because they were in the headlines, right. Uh. The interesting thing is we were way more if you want to stay crossing the line with that when we were on His and Hers. But it was received differently because I think the audience is different. The six o'clock audience for sports and sports and an audiences period are trained to see highlights, they trained to watch Okay, this is the news of the day, and that's what I want to hear about. But His and Hers was a commentary show where we talked about whatever. I mean, we we had like a ten minute conversation on the air about Philando can Steel when that happened, Um, Trayvon Martin, I mean we we talked about all these issues because rightly, yeah, real ship and athletes were talking about them too. They didn't like they Yeah, I mean a lot of I know it made a lot of networks probably uncomfortable. But when you have Lebron James and the Miami Heat wearing hoodies because they are so affected by this what happened to Traymon Martin. The fact that you know, you guys have kids, and you're well off, and you know you live in good neighborhoods. And if you're a child is walking down the street and they don't know that's Matt Barnes, this child, well that's your child. It might be some ship if the police roll up, or if a neighbor sees them in that neighborhood. So all the guys could relate to what happened and just growing up, We've seen those cases a thousand times, right so we thought it was pertinent to talk about. But there was this bubbling sentiment. Um. Some of it came from fans, some of it came from inside the building, is that they didn't want those messy intersections to be discussed. Now. For me, I'm all about the messy intersections, right, And so I didn't ESPN is gonna be who they are and I needed to be who I am. And so I felt like I was missing out on a lot of conversations because of that. Um that there were certain things I can't talk about with the honesty, the brutal honesty in which they needed to be discussed. I don't want to compromise ship right, nothing at all now. And you know, keeping it all away real. When you have enough money, you can do that, you can make that decision. And so um. When I left in in September of eighteen, I went to The Atlantic with a very purposeful mindset. Is that they are a political magazine. They loved my writing and they wanted somebody who wanted to cover the mess of sports, and that's what I wanted to write about. And esp is in a different position. I mean, they're in partnership with a lot of the leagues that they covered, and so you know, it's certain things that they're not gonna be able to say. I mean that nobody from the corner office ever came down to me and said, hey, you can't say this about the NFL, this about the NBA. But as a as the old adage goes, was understood, need not be said. And so um with that business relationship, you just with certain subjects you kind of have to walk a fine life. I don't have to worry about only to cut you off. But one thing about Spen, what I've learned, like if they pick and choose or what they wanted, what bullshit they want to deal with? Perfect perfect example with me. I used to post a lot of ship on my social media that I that I heard that higher rubs didn't like. But as soon as I get into an argument with with Wiggins and his family and it's beneficial for the station, they take it off my feet and throw it all over all the shows. So I didn't like that ship. You know what it's like, you don't support the ship that you want to support. You know what I'm saying, support me full time. And that's one thing I didn't like about everything wasn't genuine there. Yeah, it is. It's definitely some of the criticism you might receive internally and some of the things that may happen, it's arbitrary. It's on a case by case basis. Um, as you said, when some things are beneficial to the network's fine. When they're not, it is what it is. I mean, I couldn't help but notice um during the National Championship game between you know, L s U and M and uh clips I've just liked on their name, they of course showed the president right and some commentary there or whatever, and I was like, Okay, we're having to stick in the sports, you know, I mean, you're not saying that. And I get it. It It like a president goes to a game. It's it's a it's a thing. But I was thinking to myself, I wonder if KLi Kaepernick were in the building Washington game where they have ever shown a camera shot of Collie Kaepernick, probably not, probably not arobably, they wouldn't. They probably wouldn't have done that. I wouldn't want to be in that stadium. So, and the thing is, if you're gonna address and talk about Colin Kaepernick, you have to talk about why he's kneeling, what is he protesting? And when you start getting into those issues, people start sweating, People get real uncomfortable. And even with some of the things that Donald Trump said about NFL players and and right, I mean, you gotta you have to go there. And I think under the political climate in this country, it just put ESPN in a very tough position, and it's been some awkwardness. I mean, I think it's been some positives and some fails on their parts. So I just be real curious to see how they adjust if there is a new president or fromnmore, how they have to kind of double down on what they've been doing with being very hotness and restrictive about their personalities, talking about politics and even in some instances when sports and politics mix, allowing them to stay in certain gray areas so as not to offend. And you know this, you can't have no kind of real conversation if you worry about who's gonna be offended. Cannot Yeah, that was himself and ship though, because I know a lot of times my homeboys be on the run and they is having birthday parties, they don't go because they don't want the fans to catch them at their kids party. All this ship you got going on, You want to show up to the National Championship game. Put the whole arena in danger knowing these people after you, bro, that's some selfish ass ship. The thing is, that's selfish and that he came to the arena and showing people that you that's some selfish ship. He did the prim walk across the field, that's selfish ship. That's some selfish ship. Then as soon as he lined up with his girl, she broke her hand. That's selfish, you know, after you bro, and you want to come to the game, come on, don't do that. But that's some selfish ship. And everybody sucked up. That's some selfish ship. You know how to go on the hood. You want to run your kid got a party, don't show up to the party. You don't want the faster run up in the party and sunk up the whole party. You know he did that because where he was, being in a more friendly environment, being in Louisiana, being amongst those fans. The church put my hand right about it. At home. A while back, we had Stephen A. Smith on the show, and then we had aired some highlights of the interview on our social media post and you commented, uh and kind of went back and forth with him for a minute. Tell me what that was about and you guys relationship. So, um, steven A, somebody give a lot of credit to on a lot of fronts. I think it's fair to say he's the face of ESPN, and um, you know, you think about somebody like say Stewart Scott or or even other icons that have become that. To have a you know, a black man that is the face of this network is a huge accomplishment. And if it's true that he's the highest paid ESM and personality ever, equally big you know accomplishment for him, especially considering at one time he was kind of on the outside, you know, with the networks. So for him to have gone from that to this is pretty special and spectacular. And when he had his own show, quite frankly, stephen A was very purposeful and putting black journalists on the show. Yeah, he he. He gave a lot of us a platform, uh to talk about our perspective, our opinions and just get experienced doing television. And I was one of the people that regularly appeared on quite frankly, but so I'm always grateful for him for giving me that opportunity and for what he's meant in this business in terms of, you know, black journalism. So as they say, reasonable minds can differ. And I've heard some of the things that he said about Colin Kaepernick. I've been asked about it a lot. I've generally resisted, UM commenting on it. I don't really like to comment on other people's opinions for the most part, especially people I used to work with. It could get awkward and somebody might take it personally and all that kind of stuff. And yet, nevertheless, my ass did not follow my own advice. And I when I saw what he said the clip that you showed on your show, UM, I was surprised on a lot of levels because Steven they may not still consider himself a journalist, as I get it because when I did TV, outn't either because I'm like, look, I'm not going in the locker rooms anymore. I'm not necessarily interviewing people outside of them being on my show. I am not I become friends with some athletes, like I'm not in that traditional role that I used to be in when I was a newspaper reporter, and so me and me and Mike USA always joked that we were former journalists, right even though that's how people size, because we realized we were entertainers because we were on TV every day. And so maybe he sees himself in more of a hybrid role, but it just seemed like a line was somewhere a cross by him admitting that he had spoken to or through back channels, got Conline Kaepernick a workout or helped in that calls him and jay Z and I just thought that was that was really interesting because on one end, the network you represent it is talking about how they want to stay out of politics, and then on the other end, you're doing this, so you're sort of like inserting yourself and creating the news. You know. It's just that's not typically the role that we play. And I'm not here to play Stephen's journalism professor. But I was always under the impression that was somewhat of a no no to do um. So there was that part of it. And then considering what he has said about Kylie Kaepernick, then I have to wonder how personal this is to you, because if you felt like it's kind of like, uh, if you you know, to say, in a in a in a dating situation, if you hook one of your homeboys up with your home girl, well you're just like and you vouch for him where her? You like, not he a good dude? I know what you heard blah blah blah blah blah. And then he show up and he acted fool. You're like, damn dog, like you're gonna be mad. And that's not to say that Karlie Kaepernick did anything wrong, but he kind of sounded that that like, oh, I went through these back channels, hooked you up with this job, and then you show up in the couture get a shirt, embarrassing me in front of my favor So it's just sort of like, you know, I just thought that that contaminated his opinion personally, and it um you know, I I generally kind of disagree with his perspective about Colin not wanting to play and even the whole thing with the shirt and and really that trial was nothing but a set up. I mean, it was nothing but a set up. You know. It's like the the NFL was just looking for a way and excuse to point to something that they can say no, he doesn't really want it. And I can tell you this as a forty Nighties fan. I watched all the college Kaepernick's professional games, all of them. He looks in better shape now that he did when he was playing. And he's done. Uh, I mean, he was never out of shape, but I can see the body transformation that he does. He's done. Why was somebody who has not played in a few years keep themselves in that tip top of a shape if they were not intent on play the game? He really does and people have to understand something was taken from him. He didn't get hurt for no reason. He didn't get hurt, he didn't get cut. He didn't you know. I mean he eventually got cut, but you know why he got cut. But like he was not the one who uh engineered his own demise. He got essentially his career taken from him because NFL owners are cowards, and it's just that some reasons they're cowards and Donald Trump those are the reasons. And so when I saw you know him sort of um, you know, going off about him not wanting it and the Konta Kitty shirt, like he could have showed up and what you got old they weren't letting him back in the league. These people have had his number for three years, they have not called, they have not brought him in. If they were serious, they would have brought him to the team facility to work out. And then that's how it's normally done. The NFL doesn't set up to try out outside of like the combine, but they don't do that. And so it was just a farce from the beginning. And so this idea that Colin Kaepernick should have, you know, kissed the NFL's asked more to get back in. It was like, so you're asking somebody who decided to take a knee to protest racial and social injustice to suddenly kiss the ass of the same people who just took his career away. It wasn't. It doesn't work that way, right, So, um, we disagree. But I'm of the opinion I saw this a lot of this on social media, people calling Stephen a sellouts and all that kind of stuff. That was to me over the line. I know what Stephen has been able to do for other black journalists, and I was not in any way insinuating he was that. I just disagree with what he said. Now I didn't want it to become some big social media thing, despite the fact that's where I originally commented, And so when he commented back, I made sure to say, hey, bro, I'm taking this off Twitter. I'll call you that way we can have a conversation and not have some you know, full fight in open view, because there's nothing social media loves more than to not just see two you know, personalities go back and forth, but two black people fight, and I wasn't about to do that, even though I disagree with his position. So you know, I call I did call him. I left a message I love him, a text I have yet to hear back when when when he said that. Honestly, in my mind, I'm thinking like, Okay, as much as you're killing him, you're trying to help him get a job. Like when he said it, I'm thinking like that don't even sound right. You know what I'm saying that I was waiting because we wanted him on the show too, to get to know him better and and and for people to understand him, like we understand what he did for for us and to be here, to be in this game. You know, he's had a lot to do with it. But At the same time, that statement threw me off too because I've seen all the stuff you said about Kaepernick, now you're trying to help him, Like it sucked me up too, So I was just a little confused that at the role. But um, you know, I mean again, I think that the one thing that I wish our conversations, uh could really take a step forward. I mean conversations that are in our community that get outside the community. And you know, I know black people are always a lot of times aware of this opinion, Like you know, we can't discuss this in open view to people don't see it's like the white people don't care about a lot of them don't care about us anyway, so it doesn't really matter. And it's not like we can meet once a month and like, hey, black people, let's all come together discuss our internal community issues. Sometimes it's spills, it spills out, but I think it's really constructive. It's really not constructive. Rather, when we start to have this litmus test for blackness based off disagree with people's opinions, right, I mean there there, look, I gonna act like it's not some people out there that are operatives in our community. There are. We know who they are a lot of the time, a lot of them, you know, and so I understand that that really does exist, But I personally am not comfortable, you know, calling black people those names and public cools and Uncle Ton's and all that. I'm like, I'm not even going there with somebody. And that's why he was comfortable coming on our show, because we always have respect for each other, and we as men should be able to and even as a black race. We talked about this all the time. She should be able to disagree without disrespecting each other. And we have a proud with that. We have a big problem with that. Yeah, and it's all or nothing, Like I don't I don't sunk with him at all now, Like he just didn't say something that aligned with It's okay, It's okay, Yeah, No, it's all I mean. And it doesn't have to you don't have to um indict somebody's whole record based off of it. I mean, I called a lot of flat because you know, I wrote that I didn't agree with jay Z partner with the NFL um mostly because I felt like the NFL and this is not too demean or belittle jay Z's obviously a various stupid business knowledge or that he doesn't know what he's doing. But the NFL is a different entity, and I just felt like they were using him, are using him to regain some credibility with the black community that that they had lost because of how they treated Colin Kaepernick. They want their Super Bowl show. They don't want there to be shame associated with the halftime show anymore because the last couple of years, Holli Kaepernick, what happened to him, has been hanging over the Super Bowl, their biggest of it, and they wanted to eliminate that. And they even you know, have the owners have talked about it um privately, which became public, you know, based off a New York Times report about how they felt like they needed a liaison to talk to us and help bridge that gap that was widened by Colin Kaepernick and hello jay Z. So I just felt like there was the NFL was playing a game where they could shift the focus off what they did and shifted on whatever, you know, darts. Jay Z took a ball right, and suddenly it's like they care about social justice issues, which they didn't before Colin Kaepernick anyway, So It's just they're just playing this magnificencent game of chess. And I just felt like he got caught up in that and he rapped about it. He said he didn't need them right as he said, they're gonna need him, and they did. And I didn't think he should have gave them the leverage. And how can you how can you take the next step with us? All the videos kept saying with j Z saying, well, what's the next step. Let's not talk about Niel and what's the next step? Well, how are you gonna get to the next step without Kaepernick? Well, the next step he should be involved, Kapinnick should be involved. Oh, he should definitely be in Nold. But the next step. And this has always been I think the difficult part of of seeing this movement that was created around Colin Kaepernick. It was an individual decision that became a movement. It was always meant to be an individual decision, you know, and it became a movement. Other people got inspired. That's fine, And I understand that even with the players coalition UH that received the money from the NFL for various social justice causes they're looking for. In this sight, I do understand that and get that that there has to be an endpoint to this. But the next steps had kind of already been in place. Jay Z has done a lot of magnificent social justice work, the Traylon Martin documentary, the Khalib Browder documentary, all he's done in the community. His record is unquestioned in that area, So that had already taken place. Colin Kaepernick had been taking next steps. What he's doing to get felons re entered into society, giving them close to Interview UH and to Know Your Rights Camp, teaching young people about their rights when it comes to the legal system and UH and the police already in motion. You don't need the NFL for any of that. The next steps of the NFL has to address. It's been a hot button issue in the off season. Why don't you have more black coaches, Why don't you have more black gms. Those are things the NFL directly has control over. They can't do it about police brutality, that's not really their role. But they can't do something about what their league looks like and why they've never had a black owner. That's on them. And if he was gonna apply any pressure to them. It should have been about those things and not about the social justice stuff, which essentially to me, where was efforts that he didn't need their help on necessarily. I mean, it's good to have it, yes, but he didn't need them. They needed his credibility, not the other way around. Right. How do social media affected journalism? Oh? Man? Um, know where do I start? I mean, I try not to be so pestive mystic about it, but it's drastically changed our profession. Um. You know, there used to be and the media was never perfect. But I came up as a journalist when there wasn't social media, and there was a shame that went along with getting something wrong about somebody you were writing about, whether it be their name, a fact, like you were embarrassed when that happened because you couldn't just go online and corrected. The paper had to run a full scale correction the next day, so you had to live with that mistake being there and that that edition's paper. Um. And so now there's not a lot of accountability where in the age of corporate media, the size of the media is shrinking in its own by fewer people, and as a result, they are trying to turn media and journalism into a for profit business, and much like any other businesses, they're trying to make as much money as possible, as cheaply as possible, and it's effect that the product. It's not a lot of mainstream media outlets that can be committed from a financial standpoint to really doing good journalism. And that's why you see some of the mistakes. You see some of the stories that get written that are a little more delicious. Um, there are things now that are able to be printed and tweeted and all that kind of thing that would never have stood twenty years ago. Uh, there's a rush to be first and not right. Yeah, they are good with being first and wrong and because there's really no repercussions for it, right, And so that part greatly concerns me. The misinformation concerns me. Um, you know, not to go all conspiracy theory on everybody, but people have to understand with everything we saw in the last election with Facebook's rolling, this, social media's rolling, this is that most people these days, unlike kind of I think probably from the age we were are from, they are looking to reaffirm their beliefs through media as opposed to neutrally being told the information and then coming to a conclusion. You know, it's a reason why certain networks, you know, what their political slant is, and that's why they watch it, because they want somebody else to just reinforce what they already think. If that's you said it, So if they already think that way, it's like then they're happy to traffic and misinformation. And so I worry about, you know, people's ability to decipher what is fake and what is true. A Facebook meme will go around and people will take that as the truth in the media. Yeah, I mean, I remember during the Kaepernick stuff and that meme got around about Tim Tebow. Tim Tikootle took a knee and nobody did anything and that totally wasn't what he was doing. He was praying in the end zone, and somebody took the image and said that he was taking a knee for pro life rights. And it's but that people thought that was true. And I saw that hundreds of times. And that's what happens nowadays. One bit of information gets out about you, and if it circulates enough, nobody sticks around to see if it's correct or note, how does like I know I preach it to the choir over being a leader in the industry. What kind of challenges have come with that, being a black female in the space of it, but also being a leader. Um well, I think, um, you know, kind of one of the challenges. One thing, they know you ain't taking those ships. They know that you better come correct it, don't come at all. Yeah, I guess I am start to get in that reputation. But that's welcome, welcome to the club. Um No, I mean, I think a lot of the things I've gone through are just relatable to like black people everywhere being hailed sometimes to a different standard, um, being scrutinized differently. Um. You know, certainly when you're a woman in sports, a lot of a lot of people think that you're there, um, you know, just to get a husband or you know, to date somebody. And uh, that's why I hated movies when they always have that story A lot of the reporter hooking up with the athlete is so annoying. But like that's what we all are in there for. So I'm not saying that has never happened. When I am saying it's like that's really not the mission. So um, you know, you just have to live with the fact that you'll be doubted, that they're gonna come at you a different way than they would a man. And people seem to think that sports and a knowledge is directly related to genitalia, and it doesn't work that way. So those are you know, dealing with those doubts are something, uh that I feel like most black people experience, regardless of what you're you know, profession is, but it can be doubly worse when you're a black woman because you didn't have to deal with the narrative that we're angry, combative, you know, if we assert ourselves as if you totally different than if a white dude does it. It's just totally did. It's like, Okay, she stood up for something that frankly anybody should have stood up for. But now she's a troublemaker. Now she's difficult, and so you know, we have to deal with or I've certainly had to deal with some of that, you know as well, and um, let's get taxing. It is some days, you know, you you wonder how much fight you have left in you. But for me, what always keeps me going, and this is that leadership part that comes with it. This isn't about me anymore. It has ceased to be about me for a long time. This is about the younger journalists of color who are looking at me, and yeah, it's about who's next. And it's not just about me getting them through the door. I have to make through. When they get through the door, it's a safe place for them. And so I can't be at work anymore in working environments where I can't not just speak my mind, but I can't get them to culture correct if there's a problem. Um. So, I mean, that's kind of all that I'm in it for. And because again the numbers look real, sad, and it's changing how the news and how we as a as a culture and community are perceived. When you have a number of journalists who do not look like you, covering people that they have really no connection or contact with or have never had any it greatly changes how they're perceived. And so you know, it's like just a small example. That's why in this opioid crisis, you're seeing all these sympathetic stories about treatment, not saying they shouldn't be there, but they should, and the covered crack epidemic that way it was law in order send you all to jail, you know, deal with it. Come raade this community, take away everything. You know. That's that's that was the picture of the coverage. People, right, bad people. They don't deserve your sympathy, you know. And it's a lot of times why the coverage of us is often not only it lacks sympathy and empathy and compassion, it lacks humanity, like covering us like we're not even human, you know what I mean? And so, um, the only way that could change is that it has to be more of us, not only in the business, but more of us in decision making roles. You know, you've got to get out of here soon. Um. We just want to touch on a couple more things. What are your thoughts about female assistant coaches and that phen I'm growing in the NBA. Um. I think it's great. I mean obviously, and I think a lot of the teams see a lot of the benefit. But if I may pivot, I think the thing you have to that we have to be concerned about. Look at the w n b A and look at and even in women's college basketball, look at the lack of black female head coaches. That's a real problem out there. And give black male NFL NBA players w NBA jobs, but they won't give them NBA jobs. There you go, and that that's what I'm It's like, okay, and then and you know, before I mean, people are always questioned, is it a pipeline issue, like it's just not enough? Something like over eighty five percent of black female college basketball players get their degrees. It's an extraordinarily high number, right, So you can't say because it's not qualified they got that degrees because they used to use that to hold that against black men and college basketball and in other a space to saying, well, y'all don't get your degrees, that that's why you're not able to coach or able to get this athletic director position and all that. But I can't say that with them. And the numbers still look like what they what they look like. They go, you know, it's like they're giving white women, white men, black men jobs. Black women are not represented at the coaching position in the w NBA. So I think that needs to be addressed. Um, But I'm happy in general to see Sue Bird and Becky Hammond and and all those players be able to come and give their knowledge of the game. Um. And I think it shows why the NBA has always been a little bit more progressive basketball period, I think has lent itself to see more progressive. Um. You know kind of approach is happening because ball is just ball when it comes down to it. And right, I don't understand is how you gonna make a coach that the NBA players ben't like Derek Fishing and you're gonna make it force the girl to like like the guysn't even like Now you're gonna send over trying to coach them. I don't get it. And then second of all, sometime of the w n b A they're getting paid. Now, I'm happy to getting paid now. Like I said, I'd rather watch Ty Young played in Otto porter. So I'm glad. I'm glad they're getting their money. Now. What do you think about that? Well, Um, but I understand that it was never and that many of them that you talked to you you would tell you this. It was never about they're number one pick getting the same as Lebron James. It was never about that what they wanted was a big percent a bigger percentage of what they were bringing in and it's right, that's only right. And I think the m w b A had no choice because you can't have somebody like Brianna Streward going overseas and getting hurt and then missing the season. You're taking money out of your pocket. And they're going overseas because they needed something that they did. A lot of people to understand these women have to go playoff seas or get another job because what they're getting paid is not enough. So it's great that now every every woman in the league will make six figures. Maternally, these are basic things that they've earned the right to have and so UM, I think it's an amazing step for this league to take and they could be a real model. And what I've always appreciated is how NBA players support that their WNBA like it just generally love women's college basketball and women's basketball period, and I think that's just a dope relationship, you know, between um kind of the two sports. So like you know, when we're talking about the coaches that you know, ball is ball is like I think y'all, y'all recognize a real one when y'all see one, and it doesn't really matter the gender. So I'm happy that they're at a point now where maybe you'll see fewer of them go overseas because they don't want to spend years in Russia like they rather play here in front of the fans. Shout Out was the first one to do. Y'all don't want to pay me, I'm gonna go back home, get a meal ticket, then come back and play. That's what she did, so shout out. Feel like we appreciate our off season so much like they don't get all. They go from this their short season to a long ass just mention this full time. Mom Come on, that's crazy. Last question U NBA Finals picks and who wins it? Well, I know, I know it's funny because it was. I went through a period of this season when I was like, oh man, this thing is really wide open. I was like, oh ship, no, it's not talking by the day, like all right, uh, it is pretty hard um to go against the Lakers, but the Clippers. I'm gonna beat that person. I was just about to say, I like the Clippers better than the Lakers, and I feel like their pieces really messed together. I think they have more depth. I think they have the kind of defensive attitude that they definitely lends itself to winning championships, winning playoff series. Um, it would be the fate of the apocalypse if the Clippers lose. If the Clippers beat the Lakers in the Western Finals, like here, I mean, we're in l A, I'm like, oh my god, I'm just worried about the clip because you've got their own players saying, man, we're not as good as we think. They've been losing some bullshit games. But you know it's early. It's the dog run right early. So that's what you can't count the time they beat the Lakers that we know as players. You know, you know as players, we know you know, it starts kind of after All Star break, so that's when you kind of really start looking in and kind of seeing what kind of team. But back to you, No, I got the Clippers in Milwaukee, and who wins? Um, are the Clippers getting their first one? I'm gonna say the Bucks because if you don't, Yeah, that's part of what maybe I'm I'm kind of rude for this to happen. I mean, he may win when and still be out right, but I mean, look, I realized that you know, at this point you kind of have like three or four teams that have emerged. I don't think Houston's gonna make it, you know, um, I know it is. It is kind of tough, especially with everything that they that they've gone through. But um, you know, right now, whenever I watched man, it's like the Clippers, the Lakers, Milwaukee, they passed that odd test you know to me, so I know it would be a cool story. You know, you have Toronto Winny last year. I mean that would be pretty special. I think. So. Well, that's a wrap. We want to thank our guests. Yeah, yeah, you know, I love you guys. I love that you're the fact that you're doing this and I couldn't think of two people who were more suited to do something like this, sit down and have honest conversations and to talk ship with people. This means a lot coming from you. There's a lot coming from you. Thank you very much everything you've done and stand for, so thank you, and we got it back. So when the ship started, just no, we're coming. All the motherfucker's smokes, all of it. That's a wrap. Catch us Showtime Basketball, YouTube, all the smoke and on all platforms, streaming, podcast, all of them. We're hearing that some of the Warriors may have already made a decision not to attend a potential White House visit. Why have you decided that this is something you really want to make a big statement about. Well, I don't want to go. That's really in your life, Your friend, you must have they didn't termination. If you're in a racist society and you're being discriminated against, it's up to you to do something for yourself. I don't allow any party to make you feel you know, is there any regret that you got to do a name calling situation with the president? No? Always feel and how always feel Black athletes who are supposed to be the workers, not the owners. They were supposed to be the talent, and never the power programs always feel that you were where. It's so much more than a game. It's a vehicle to push positive social change. At some point you have to look in the mirror and say that my part of the problem, I part of the solution. Significant signific to each of you, Each of you, All these guys who stood up every step along the way, they're the ones who are the true heroes in our world. At that time, it was never acceptable that a black player was the best. When you just what you're going to be in life as this particular history. If you recognize you where you come from, in your background and what people have done for you to get there, you're gonna get inspired body, and you're gonna do right period living. M hm m hm