Doc Rivers | Ep 70 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball

Published Feb 4, 2021, 9:35 PM

On a big episode 70 of ALL THE SMOKE, new 76ers head coach, Doc Rivers, joins Matt and Stak to discuss his career in basketball. Rivers opens up about his time as the head coach with the Celtics & Clippers and about moving on to his next opportunity in Philly. Plus, he discusses Joel Embiid, Ben Simmons and getting the best out of the teams young stars. Also, the boys ask him about his time playing in the NBA, including stories of facing Michael Jordan, Magic and more.

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Welcome to All the Smoke, a production of The Black Effect and our Heart Radio and partnership with Showtime. Welcome back Man, season two of All the Smoke. We got a real special guests. What's up with your brodeach with the virtual headshake. I'm gonna tell you something that I never told you back. I want to smoke. Welcome back to another edition All the Smoke. Jack, what's going on out there in Atlanta? Man? It's freezing man, hey and like and like we said earlier, it would be funny the first it's snow everywhere. It's nice out here now not nice. It's in the mid sixties out here in l A. I can't complain. We got a really special guest. We appreciate you taking time. We know you're on the road right now. Let's welcome to the show, Doc Rivers. What's up? How are you going on the season? The road? You know, it is what it is. So we were just talking before we gone on, and I think it would be interesting for our viewers to hear that too, because obviously, you know, when Jack and I played in your whole entire career, you know, the road is kind of a chance where you get away from home. You can go to some new restaurants, you can get out and check out a new city. It's completely opposite that. Now. It almost seems like you guys are on complete lockdown. And sometimes actually you guys are the only people in the hotel. Talk to us a little bit about what that experience is like. Yeah, in most cases, you're the only person in the entire hotel. They they wish you into the back door. You're going through service elevators. Uh, It's it's really strange. I would say still I would take it over the bubble. Um. But you know, because you are playing in the actual arenas, so you feel like you're on a road trip. The biggest difference is you just never leave the hotel. Uh, you know, for me, like coaches, you literally you get your room. You don't leave the room. You know, you may go down and grab a bite with the fellas. Other than that, you're in your room. So it is definitely different. Um. But again, if you ask me which one I take, I take the way we're doing it now, then over the bubble I'm sure everyone else feels that way too. Well, let's get to it fresh start in Philly. How how has that been. I saw you go there. As soon as you signed there was just like Doc is one of the best motivators I've ever played for, And to me from the outside looking in, it seemed like that was all those stars needed with someone to you know, make them feel comfortable on who they are and being the best them And we're seeing that particularly at a Joembi who's playing at all m v P and obviously All Star caliber this year. Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting. Uh when when I first I wasn't sure what I was gonna do. I was gonna take I was gonna do what you guys are doing now, you know, take a year off and you know, just relax a little bit. You know, guys, this is one straight years. I haven't had it off year ever, you know, right. Uh. And so I thought about it for for about twenty minutes and uh and then the Philly job. It's just so interesting to me because of of Ben and Joel uh and new Tobias was there and I had coached him, uh, and I thought I could get to him as well. Uh. So you know, this this group, it's just it just needed a change like culture. Um, and that just it wasn't as much as on the floor, and it was some of that we have to change, just the culture all around uh, on the floor, in the office, uh, in our development everything. And you know, they allowed me to come in and do that. Elton to start it was the main guy, and didn't we bring in Darryll. So just having that group behind me and allowing me to do the things that I need to do that I think helps us win. Was was was big, been amazing, UM. And then we have to get our guys, our players to understand what what winning actually looks like, you know, and I think, uh, you guys have played long enough, you know, you know the game. Like I think there's a lot of great players, but I don't think all of them understand what winning actually is and what it looks like, what it takes. It's hard to win, you know, you don't luck up. There's no lucky champions um. There never will be UM. And so you gotta do all the preparation uh and put in all the time and then go through the you know, I hate using the word the process because it's there for a minute, you know, but you know, we jokingly told our guys preparation process and then the parade but you don't get that. You don't get the last one until you do the other two first. Well, you had you had a particular mindset with that two thousand eight Championships Celtics team for you guys to capture that title. What has been the mindset? Um? You want your players to embody with this new run with Philly. Yeah. Every every group is different, you know, man. I had I had that that whold boot to thing with the Celtics, and they were just the perfect group because they were ready. They had all had you know, their m vps and they all stars, you know, Ray and KG and Paul. They were ready to win. Like they wanted to be coached, they wanted to be lad, they wanted to figure out how to do something together. Uh. Then I went with the Clippers and you know, Matt, that first group, as you know, uh, I thought the talent was there, you know, I just didn't think we ever wanted to be a team. Uh at least do it together. Uh we'll definitely, We'll definitely get into that a little bit later. Yeah, and and and it takes that. So then you go to this group and you know, I kept using the word yet like every time since I've taken this job, you know, Joel and beat and been having won And I said, well they can we say yet maybe one yet, like they still have time, they have time to they have to improve. We have to improve as a group together. But the yet word is very important. And that's what we're trying to do now is trying to remove that word. But that word is in front of us. And until we do something about it, guys, who's gonna stay there? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, doc um, I said, I said when you took the job that you are one coach that knows how to get that get the best out of out of his players, not only because you played, but you also knew how to hold guys are accountable. And that's what I think Ben was kind of missing, being that he has such a relationship, great relationship with Brett Brown and and and I know even with guys all stars like KG and Paul Hum, you held them accountable. I think that's gonna take these guys to the next level. How special are being being in UH and B. They're both better than I thought, which is I gotta tell you from a coach saying that that's a hell of a feeling scary feeling and both of them are in completely different ways. You know, there's that old saying you don't know a player until you play with him a coaching Um. And and like I loved him from Afar, Like I saw Ben. Uh. We had a game I think it was two years ago. He just came into l a and destroyed the Lakers and then destroyed the Clippers. And I was like, man, this guy. Uh. And then you coach him and he has so many different skill sets. Uh. You know, everybody's focused on his shooting and and when you watch him play, he does so many different things to affect winning that analytics and numbers can never justify on what he does. Um. He's one of the few guys Kauai had a little bit of this too. Were Defensively, he can literally swallow you. You know, that's how that's how it feels like when he gets into you, he just swallows you. You don't see that very often, uh, with guys and his instincts. Offensively, he's not a point guard like Magic was a six ten point guard. Ben can play point from his position. He's never gonna be a guy that comes down and see all the calls if you put him in actions with his instincts. I'm telling you there's there's I think it was the whiter. Someone said he has Lebron like instincts, and he does. You know, he has a size, he has the ability. Uh you know he can make only like a few people magic Lebron and him those bullet passes across the court because of their size. Um. So yeah, and then Joe l is Listen, he's offensively and I didn't know. I thought it was good. I'm not gonna lie like I thought he was really really good. Um, but I don't know how you stop him when he gets it in this place without double teeming him. Uh. And that's what teams are doing. And so what what we have to do is get him comfortable with being double team and get him to understand having a mindset. If you double team me, we're gonna score. If you don't double team me, we're gonna score. And he has that mindset. Now you can see it, like this is the first time he invites stuffle teams. Now you remember Barkley with like come on, guys, come on over here. He's doing that now. Um where you know in our first conversations it was hilarious. Oh you talked about you know, they're gonna double team me, and I was like, yeah, bro, that's what they should do, you know. And you need to get some tape on Tim Duncan. Yeah, that's fine. Um, And you're still getting yours and and and now he's realizing he can score and you can also facilitate from the post. And this is the last thing is we had to get our team to understand that No, Joel is our go to guy and we had to make that clear. Like so, I think just defining what our guys needed to do has really been helpful being a star in your role. And that was one thing I remembered you priest to the Clipper team is just you know, everyone could be a star what they have to do, and when you do that, you have a better chance at winning. See, man, I didn't even know you were listening to me. I'm not I was, I was. I was multitasking. You got a second chance to coach Tobias Harris. He had his best year as a pro with you as a Clipper. Um, now he's at that level again, which to me was huge because you know, things didn't work out with Jimmy Butler and you guys felt like, you guys needed a wing that can close the games and do a lot of the things that Tobias has in him. He just hasn't been able to show all the time. What has it been like, because obviously I think you're someone that's been able to get into him and encourage him to be the best of himself. And we're definitely seeing that again with you as his coach for the second time. It's great. You know sometimes that you know you you can go back to the same place and it then it's not the same, right, it's different. Uh, this one has been great. I mean I think the first practice, uh, ball swung, the bias start going between his legs. I blow the west. I was like, now, Brobs, that's just not you, right, and he's laughing. Was like, here we go, you know, here we go. But when I tell you, when he's straight line, quick decisions, he is a monster to garden. And that's what we got him doing again. He's confident. You know, he's catching it and shooting, catching it and attacking with his size. You know, people forget you guys probably remember, but he used to be just a post player. Yeah, in college and so we're doing we're giving him that as well back and put the post game back into him. So it's been really nice. And and and as a guy, let's listen, you need great guys on your team, and he's one of them. Yeah. I had him as a rookie Matt and Milwaukee. I had him Milwaukee, and he's I mean, one of the best kids ever. I knew once he get up under the right teacher, he would be good. But he had all the tools, the size, everything. But besides, because like I said, he's a great kid, one of the best teammates you can have. He just looked like, to me, looks like he's at peace with this game. He's very comfortable at what he's doing. And that's obviously when he's the most effect to Let's take it back to your upbringing. Um, your dad was a cop. Was that a tough situation back then? Obviously police brutality has been on the spotlight my whole life. Was it tough having a father as a cop as a child. It's funny, man, it wasn't. Because I lived in the community, a black community, Um, mostly black cops. You know, Uh, my dad was a cop. He was a baseball coach, the football coach, the basketball coach. Uh. Every time I came home from school, there's some mom a grandmother uh, sitting on the couch with their son crying. Uh, and my dad giving them, you know, advice or threaten them that if I see you do that again, I'm gonnatinch your butt. You know, my dad was tough man like, but he was tough to me. He was tough to the whole community in a very like positive way. Um. But and we don't have that anymore. So. But the fact that, and this is what gets me is the fact that my dad had to have to talk with me. Think about that. My dad's a coup and and he used to tell me, boy, when you when you go out of this neighborhood, like, you gotta be careful. Uh, you gotta watch it if you get pulled over. Uh, if you get stopped. I remember when I got my license. He sits me down on the couch, and that was the talk. If I pulled you over, you're good. If Willie Boyd pulled you over, and Willie board was another cop in neighborhood, we all knew their names. Um, you know, you walk down the street. My neighborhood, the coup starts riding down the street. You would wave, but you're going. You go in the next neighborhood and the cop rose slows down. The first thing you want to do is run. The second thing you start thinking is and here it comes something, Something's gonna happen. Uh. And it did happen. It happened to all of us, happened to me. I got thrown into bad wagon once and I was just standing in the corner. But I wasn't in my neighborhood. Um, and you know, so yeah, it was difficult in that way, but not the way. I cann't imagine how we would be now. Listen, we didn't have body comps. We had no proof. You know, my grandmother, my my great grandfather, all of them used to complain and tell us about these stories, but we didn't have any proof. Uh, George Floyd, and and even before George Floyd, we got proof now that that it actually is happening, and it's happening at a at a normal rate. It's not like once every five years, you know, it's it's happening at a normal rate. And you know, I'm so happy what you guys are doing what everyone is doing because without our voices, um, this stuff we get swept under the rug. And it's not over just because Joe Biden went and got in office. Like, we gotta keep the pressure on. But we gotta get legislation mass, guys, we gotta get things changed. Um. And you know change isn't bad for people, it's bad for people who don't want that change. Um. And you know equality, I don't understand what's wrong with equality and why people think if I give you equal rights that I'm losing something right, It's it's nuts, but that comes with them when you have everything, you don't want to give up anything and you're not. But but we want our fair shape and and and guys like we gotta keep fighting for it. I think you touched on it, uh perfectly. You know. Growing back up, I remember hearing stories where the community knew the cops back in the day by name, you know, so it wasn't necessarily if if I'm in your neighborhood, I know you. I know who's causing street is Willy down the street or it is Gym around the corner. They knew people by name, and now they're putting cops that have no relation or understanding to these communities, and they're and they're scared. And when you're scared, do crazy shit. And and we're scared on both sides. You like, they're scared of us, we're scared of them, you know. So there's no actual line of synergy, there's no communication. Most of times it's just guns and tazers and that, and that's very unfortunate. Well, think about how many times, probably in different communities, where a cop will see a guy do something, even break the law, and he'll grab and say, hey, John, you don't do that kind of stuff, man, and send him home. But then think about that same cop that lives, you know, thirty miles away, and he's driving down the street now, living in that working in that community. Then he doesn't know anybody, and he's scared. He sees someone doing anything, he's gonna arrest him, get him, uh and throw him in down. Um And and and listen, we we're not we're not. We're not judged the same. We're not. It's not just the cops, but you know, the law like they see us differently. Um. And so it has to change. I really believe that the reckoning of uh just understanding that this always happened and and admitting that it happened is a good therapy for this country. But no one wants to do it, at least a lot of people that some do. Things are changing, but we still got to push it. Great first step, UM, what was your introduction to race and racism? You know you and I have talked before this. Um, hopefully we can still get you for the project. We just finished my uh my Black Mark project. But you faced a lot of racism in your life, and you said you grew up in a black community, So I'm guessing stepping outside of that community for the first time was when you face racism. Yeah, even earlier, Matt. Like, if you look at the map where I'm at in Chicago, May Would is surrounded by like five very affluent white neighborhoods, and so it was almost like an electric wall, you know, like if you went outside of that Provider West High School I went to when I was in grade school, young grade school, there was a big racial riots there on TV every day because Provider we bled into all those communities and so there are big race riots. Um, I didn't really understand them. I just knew that the blacks are walking on one side and the whites were on the other side, and the state police in the middle of the street. And people were throwing bottles and all that. So that was my first introduction. But the first one I really got was when I was I think I wanted to say it was in the fifth grade, maybe in the fourth grade. My dad came home and told me, you to take me to a basketball count uh and fourth grade going a little kids camp. Um. It was at an all white neighborhood. One it was very affluent white high schools. And I walked in and the only black there. And on the third day and I'm bragging, but I was destroying these kids, um and kick on me a nigger, and and so like I lost it, you know, like what wait a minute, what? And and so I tried we you know, I threw a punch, you know. Uh. They wanted to kick me out of course because I was the troublemaker. Uh. My dad comes in to pick me up, but he has his police officer on outfit on, so he got respect, you know, because it comes a police officer. And so you know, that night, my you know, I'm I'm crying, tom mad you know, and my dad says, all right, um, let's get dressed in the morning. And I'm like, for what he said, because you're going back to the camp. And I was like, what do you mean that I want to go back there? And he said, oh, no, you're going back, and you're just gonna show him, uh who this nigger is. And that's exact words that he used. And you know, I did not want to go. Um, but I went back and the next two days, you know, for whatever, fourth or fifth grade, I wish I could remember the grade could do. I did everything I could basketball as I'll say that, and we want the whole thing. And I got the m v P. And the kids were cheering when I left, and you know, it's it's it's funny. The only way those kids could have ever saw it. You know, he's all right, But it was by me coming back and taking the heat, you know, so I did. Mine was very similar as a child, third or fourth grade, moving from the Bay Area to Sacramento, where I was still in a predominantly mixed neighborhood. I went to an all white school, so they wouldn't let me play nothing like no at recess lunchtime, I couldn't play any sports. I was nigger, this nigger that. So I was chasing their kids around, beating them up, fighting until that one day I finally got an opportunity to play sports to them, and then they saw that I could play football, basketball, and baseball, and that was kind of the opening too. He's not that bad. He's just not the same color. But he's cool, dude. And I think through sports was my way of kind of, you know, allowing people to see who I was as a person and not just the color of my skin. So it's crazy because you just don't understand as a child, like they don't like me. Why, Like I've never met him, how come they don't like me strictly the color of your skin? It's crazy. But sports is amazing because the thing I love about four is um people want to win and they forget color quick. Uh. And like the reason I love basketball is because there's a score, there's nobody up there like judging and then decide, well, you guys win, because it wouldn't go so well for us if that was true. Yeah, So that's what makes sports so great. Yeah, absolutely, So that we talked to us, we're talking about Chicago. Tell me this how how rough was chicag don't your upbringing? It was rough? But you know, I don't think you know what. You know, Maywood was a little nicer than a lot of the other places. You know, it was a lower middle class place. You know, Maywood now is really rough. Uh, but it might have been, you know, I remember this is a true story. Um. I want to say Michael or or Sambo, we want of them. They all came and we made I made the Playboy All American team in college and we we got to go to the Playboard mansion. I won't tell any stories about that there, but we we went to my house one night because my mom wanted to make everybody dinner because it was in Chicago. And I read years later there's a man doc Lives, and I was like, are you kidding me? So my point is, uh, I think when you're growing up, it is what you have. You don't look at it as rough. Like I mean, yeah, it's what you know. My best two friends are from Maywood, you know, and uh, shoot, man, I love growing up there. I don't. I couldn't have picked a better place. When did you find When did basketball become a part of your life. Oh early early, My uncle Jim Brewer played. Uh, you know my Provider I wanted to go to University of Minnesota played in the NBA. I think overall Providers High school has the Latin NBA players. Uh from one high school. That is not a recruiting it's just local kids. Um, you know from Mike Finley. I mean, we can keep naming them. Uh, but it's so it was always in my mind. I've always wanted to be, um a basketball player young young. I didn't know I want to be a basketball coach. That that came late, but the playing wasn't no brainer for me. Was so he was younger than you, I think. But Benji Wilson, you remember hearing about him. Are you already in the league by the time he his wave came to Chicago. Yeah. I want to say I was probably about my six or seventh year, but we all knew each other. Um, and then you said, the best summer league the Chicago State. The Summer League of Chicago was off the charts. That's back when all the NBA players could come. You can play in different summer leagues. Um, places packed is free to get in and uh you know they would always put a high school team in. You know, I got to play as a senior in high school against all the pros. We actually my junior year, we actually made it to the finals. H high school team. Now that high school team had market guire Zay had time as Daryl Walker, Terry Cummins. We were looking we're loaded. But you know so I think we played like Ricky Sober's and Reggie theas and artists, Gilmore, you know a lot of the bull players, so that those are the best days. But then you heard I never got to see him in person. Guys, but they said that that kid was wonderful. And what made it so sad is growing up we were protected, like no one touched the athletes. And clearly that has changed, which tells you a lot of things have changed. So fortunate, so very decorated high school career. UM, all American across the board. What made you choose Marquette close close to home? Um, you know, I'm one of my parents to be able to come to the games. I didn't want to go too close to paul Is where like Isaiah, Mark and I had said we don't go. Mark went Isaiah with the Indiana, so as I always blamed Isaiah ruined it so uh and then I wasn't going. It was just too close. So Marquette was close enough. And I knew Rick mjaris Ricken who was a great coach, and I've been going to his basketball camp since freshman in high school. Uh, so they pretty much had me from the start. So hold on. So you Isaiah Thomas and Mark ocguire were all discussing on going to DePaul. Yeah, wow, almost happened. Uh, Mark and Isaiah. I thought Isaiah was gonna go uh, and then he decided to go to Indiana. And Isaiah earlyer always recruited me to go to Indiana with him because I was the following year. And and then I saw that was working, and I was like, so who else? Who else was recruiting your coach? I could have gone anywhere, um, but I ended up narrowing it down Michigan. You know, here's a crazy story. Derek Harper and I got to know each other from the from the five Star basketball count. So Derek and I decided let's team up. So Derek and I were both going to University of Michigan. Johnny Yor was a coach Johnny Or then calls us and says, hey, guys, I just took a new job to Iowa State and do you guys want to come? And thanks but with the answer. So Derek ended up at Illinois and that's what changed to the Marquette Park. But there was a time, very good chance that Derek and I would have ended up at the same school. What was What was it like at Marquette? It was great, you know, Um, we were good. I think we made it in the final six team. Uh. You know, I would say in a lot of ways, Matt Marquette in some ways kind of saved my life. And and the fact that I didn't really I wasn't really into school, uh you know. And then I got to Marquette. I met this professor that my freshman year had just decided, oh no, you you're gonna be a student. Um, and he wouldn't let go, like he was just he wouldn't let go. By the end of it, I was going to his house. Uh. He was my tutor, and you know, I didn't like him early on. I'm not gonna lie. Actually couldn't stand him because I mean I was like no other student has to do this uh Man he and he kept saying, man, you you have knowledge. You just got to learn how to write and talk. And so you Dr Wolfe was his name, and I'm thanking God that he came into my life. So in college, who's some of the toughest opponents you faced? Oh, Man, Louisville. Uh, Louisville was rough. They had the cray brothers if you remember that Rodney who was a brother. Yeah, and he had the craw brothers. So they were tough. I was was really tough. Um, you know the Paul Heck, we had to deal with Mark. So we played Houston and that's when they had Clyde Rob Williams. You remember Rob Williams was really good. And then this African guy came in the freshman and he hadn't played much that year, and he came in like the middle of the first half. He just blocking, throwing a block in our shots. And I remember Hank Raymond and Rick Man Jars at half time losing their mind like this kid never plays, and you know it was funny. It turned out to be Elijah one. So but he didn't play. He just knew how to block everybody's shot. It's amazing how good he got and I quickly he did it. You know what's funny is, like you said, he all said and done. Maybe one of the most skilled bigs ever as far as footwork and in pace of playing. To think that in college it was just a raw athleticism and how much he improved in a short amount of time. It really is. You know, you think about like fundamentally sound footwork. Um, you know when you think footwork, do you think him, Tim Duncan, Kevin McHale and I don't know if you go further than that, right, really not for bigs. It's crazy you could you could throw and beat in that category. He got hell of a footwork for a big man. I think he's the first seven foot we see that a year old step at full speed stuff. He got the up and under. Uh, his up and under maybe the slowest up and under I've ever seen. And it's so effective. Like the first couple of times in practice, I'm like, I know you just traveled, uh, because it's so slow, and then when you look at it, it's it's beautiful. You know, he's got the same thing those two guys had. Though. He could shoot and he's figured it out man. He says that all up with that little up fake, and you gotta honor it because he can shoot the ball field. Nineteen eight three second round draft picks of the Atlanta Hawks take us back a little bit because the the NBA is struggling with image in the early eighties. It's too black, there's too much drugs. Your first year as commissioner, Stern's first year, what was going into the NBA like in eight three? It was it was not a good league, guys. It was drugging tested Um, pretty nasty league. When I first came in. You know, beer everywhere in the locker room, guy smoking cigarettes. Uh, it was crazy. We we had and I'm not gonna use the name, but we we had a meeting one time, me and Randy Whitman with Mike for Tello, head coach. He brought in his in his room and said, Hey, don't give this guy any money. And I'm like, I'm thinking I'm not getting anybody money anyway. Uh. But know it was it was a teammate and he was worried about the guy using for drugs. And then so but I tell you it changed in like three years. It was amazing how quickly the league, the players change, uh and went to the whole other side of being pro players. H. You didn't see it anymore, you didn't hear about it anymore. Um. But I take my first few years that was a roughly, really rough teaming up with the young Dominique Wilkins. Great was neat. I love him. I love him still one of my favor guys. You know. Um he he was man, he's he didn't get enough to do. Um how good he was offensive he was he was as an unstoppable of a player. Uh that has ever played offensively can do everything. Um. I mean I've never seen an I missed a shot and then tiptok. You know. And when I was young and basketball caps, kids would always ask me and they ever been dumped on? And I said, every game by my teammate. You know, I don't know how many times I thought I was getting off as a rebound and then all of a sudden, this guy is jumping over me. Uh. You know, he had this saying a lot of people will go the first to the top floor, but very few people can go to the penthouse. And that's where he was tell me, like, when you throw the ball, throw it to the penhouse. Uh, throw it where nobody else can go. And so he made me. You know, I had years where I had ten assist I had twenty six assist games, and I was I was a good player, but that was you know, I was good. But that when you know, man, you could you could throw the ball anywhere, and he was gonna go get it. So he made me really good. So you guys are in the US is a building a winner in Atlanta. You guys played the Celtics Big Three in the playoffs and eight sight. What were those matchups like? They were brutal? Uh. I mean they were just so deep and good. We had them, Matt and one time we're up three too in that in that great series. And you remember the game seven, the Dominante Bird series, shot for shot, shot for shot, and you know, I think I ended up that game. But like you know, eighteen points, fifteen assists, six rebounds. Randy Whitman was twelve for twelve. I think there are five turnovers combined in that game. It was one of the most perfect play games, that game seven. Uh. But at the end of the day, Michael and uh and Larry Bird, Larry Bird that night was listen. Uh, he was unbelievable and he was so clutch. Was just as clutch that night. It's just the Larry in the fourth quarter was unstoppable. But that was that Boston team. Uh, it's one of the greatest teams ever assembled. That that that that front line was they were they were tough. I said. Bird had twenty of his thirty four in the fourth quarter. Dominique has Dominique had seventeen of his forty seven in the fourth quarter, and they were going, they was going at it. Oh. Man. You know it was crazy too, because it's rare in the game. You feel it like you know, you guys have been in games where after the games people said, man, that was the most amazing game, But you were in it, and you're like, you know, I didn't feel that. I knew it was a good game. That was one of the few games I was doing this the games. Yeah, it was the hell of a game, you know. Yeah, they say you battled with Danny Age, but you went to work on him later. Yeah, yeah, I talked more trash to Danny. Yeah. People forget how hated Danny Age was. He was he was. They did not like him because you know, Danny's an instigator, he really is. Uh? And who was all three hit Danny ainge um when he was with the Sixers and sodyll three got enough money from fans to pay for his fan Think about that. That's that's crazy, um, And Danny loved it. That's who Dandy is. Like he wants to be the instigator. Danny's an instigator as a as a president of the gym. You know, he really is. Danny wants to instigate stuff. Uh, because he's as competitive as a dude that I've ever been around. Yeah, I love Dan. He drafted me so that I love. I ever loved Dannie. That's my guy. Now he's the best. I tell you. Our relationship is the way it'should word like if you want to win, um, because it's not just your team, is not just a coach, is not just the players, but when the coach and in the front office is lockstep and everything Like Dan and I had I'm telling you guys, we had arguments about players and then we go to dinner, you know, yeah, and we started laughing about it and we had this thing like you know, I'll give you one and you give me one. And then What that meant was every once in while, Daniel come in with a hell, no, we're not doing that trade. No, because then he loves trades like he he every day he's talking about a trade. But then I would say most of the time I was, I would give in and say let's do it um, you know, And so he was great to work for him. You have to matched up against the best opposing guard. What was it like going guys like Jordan and Isaiah? Isaiah grew up playing against Um. It's funny. We we had some battles. We were ranked number one and two in high school and they beat us UM in a big game. Uh. They knocked us out of my junior year. Uh, they knocked us out of the state tournament. We played that same year in the Christmas tournament. Uh. Think about this. I was in nineteen, I don't know years, nineteen seventy nineteen year, nineteen seventy nine. My brother sold a ticket for a high school game in nineteen seventy nine for five hundred dollars. Think about that. That's how I said that That game was. It was like one of the biggest games ever because as there was a number one player in the country as a senior and that was the number one player in the country as a junior. Were from the same area. Uh, it was award at night. His brother was was intimidating the rest uh as the rest party, which to this day I still believe played a part in the decision of that game. But yeah, and then, uh, you know, Michael was just tough. Michael was Michael was ruthless. Um. People don't get like when we talk about Michael, the guys who played against them, I don't. I mean, Kobe approached his competitiveness. Other than that, I've never seen anyone more competitive. Um. I remember his rookie years, my second year and he got up to an amazing star and we played him. Remember after the game, at my first thought, there's no way he can play that hard all season. Wow, And like ten years later he was still playing the same way. It was just I was amazed how much he gave on the defensive end and the offensive end, and his energy level at which he played. Like, um, I don't know if there there there have been anything like that. So that's why you know, I hate comparing like the generations because le Bron is gonna end up having the greatest career ever. Their rookie stats docked. Their rookie stats are damn they're the same. They are like and you know, I still for me, Michael is the greatest player ever. But Lebronen is gonna have the greatest career ever. Um, and what he's doing right now is incredible. So it's it's unbelievable. But you know, the toughest guy for me to guard his magic um because you know, um, Matt, you have the twins at home, right and so when you're playing in the backyard and you're playing against him, you know how you look over them like their little children. You know, I never did everybody. And I was a great defender and I get up into him the first game and he had that smirk like looking over top of you, and it pissed me off. I'm not gonna lie like like this dude is like chopping me right now. And it's not not a lot you can do with it. Because he was so big. You know, he was big man people, he is big dude, uh, and just he was for me, he was the harvest because of the size. With Michael was the best I have to go. So as the eighties turned to the nineties. You had a quick stint with the Clippers, helping them reach the playoffs and then off to New York. What was your thoughts being able to head to the Mecca and play for legendary someone who started out West and then ended up as you know that the mafia, Pat comes to the Knicks. What was that experience like change my life? I never won the coach until I played for pat Riley. Um. I had done internships doing TV, That's what I was gonna do, you know. And then I played for pat Riley and just motivationally and how he has his ability to make you buy in as a group and and hate and every other team like um, you know, it got to the point you didn't like anybody Like Michael and I had a hell of a relationship, uh Jordan, until I played for the Knicks. It over. But that's how like you played for Riley Man he was the best and and we we were good. You know we think about we had home court um against the Bulls in that series and you know watching it that that documentary, this summer was tortured. Uh for me, you know, we're up to old and remember they talked about it. They had a five day break before day break in between game two and three, and for four days they talked about Michael Jordan Gambler and even I knew, we knew then. I said, man, this this is not good. That's all you're doing is poking the bear and we wasn't doing it. Like I kept saying, like it's one thing if it's us, but it's the media. And then just kept going and I think Michael had like fifty something Game three, Game four he did it again, and we had him in game five. Man, um, you know, we didn't miss some big free throws and then Charles at that the three lay up you know play. But other than that, yeah, that was That's the toughest loss in my life. Um, I would say, you know, as a player, that was the most difficult loss that I've ever had. So the next season, you guys go to the finals, you're injured, you feel like you're coming back and you're ready to play, and Riley doesn't activate you. How did that happen? How did that? What was the interaction between you guys after that? Not good? You know? Um the reason is, and it's it's called the DC Rivers Room. Basically back then you had to change You had to give your your your roster before the first round of the playoffs, and once you said it, you couldn't change it. So the doctors are telling rounds that there's a very good chance that I could be healthy by the finals, but they couldn't guarantee it. What what What injury did you have at the time? A c L. Yeah, so it was a big injury. And but what killing and Riley wrote about it in his book was so it hurt our relationship because I was pissed. I was putting in. I was putting in the time. It would have been seven eight months, so it's been very early, uh to come back and been the earliest at that point. But had done the work and he calls me and he makes that decision. And I was crushed, man, because I worked my butt off, but I kept working. We go through it, We keep going, We get to the finals, and by the finals, we have a practice and I'm practising that and you can see Riley looking at me like, oh man, the guys uh, and you know, starts goes to for eighteen in that one game. Um, I'm sitting on the bench and street clothes, you know, that was. That was a hard one for me because you you play your life at least I did. I wanted to win a title, man, and sitting in street clothes, that was. That was brutal. That was brutal for me, especially with that team that was such a great team, Anthony Mason and Charles Smith, Charles Oakley, John starts Greg Anthony, I mean we had some dogs that that was a rough basketball team and I just love playing for him and with them. How did you get on them? How did you get on the coaching track after you left the Spurs? You know, see when you probably know this story a little bit. Um, I had no interest in coaching. UM, and then I played for Rows and I start thinking maybe I want to coach. And whenever retired from the Spurs, UM, I got an offer from NBC to do the telecast and t n T. I chose t n T. I get a call from Pop UM and Pop wants me to be the assistant for Bob Hill. UM. But you know it was more Pop's ideal than Bob's idea. And so that's that was smart enough to know that what that that that's not good? So I turned that down. UM. And then I did the T and T for the three years, UM, and it was great because you know, at that point, I think Pop takes over, so I got to watch him do his job. I got an offer from Milwaukee in the second year, and I turned it down. UM. I just wentn't ready honestly, UM, you know, to coach, I just gotten out the league. But they offered me the job. I turned that down. UH. And you know, in any profession, if you turn a job down, it's like, man, we've gotta get him. You know. I didn't do it on for that reason. But that next year I had two offers. I could have coached the Wizards West Unsealed was the GM. They offered me the job or the Magic, and I chose the Magic because we knew they were going to rebuild. UM. And you know, my first year, I won Coach of the Year with guys that UM, you guys would identify with, you know, like that was you guys played against that team that was a hard go out. Well, well, let's we didn't have the problem on our team was when he got down the stretch, we had nobody to go to. UH. But that team was so fun to coach, and it took. I couldn't have had a more perfect first year because we didn't have like a lot of great offensive players. I had to think outside the box. Um. I had to create a t O s on on on the spur of the moment um and that served me well for the rest of my coaching career. How excited were you when and when Orlando traded for team at that summer? Oh? Man, listen, you know so first of all we had a chance. Um, that was all free agency. We we we John Gabriel was the GM. We did an amazing job, like we had Disney involved. Uh, some of the stuff we did when we brought those guys in, so t mac. I think Grant Hill was first, and Grant Hill said yes. Grant him said yes, by the way, when he got off the plane, so he could have got back on the plane he was already coming. Um. Then we brought in Tim Duncan, and Tim duncan at he basically said yes, you know, um, there's that rumor about me and his girlfriend. That's not completely true. Um. But John Calipari I called John and said, hey, man, I think we got Tim And he said you got him and I said yeah. He said he's probably coming, but he just needed to go back to San Antonio, UM to have one more visit. He said, oh, you lost. And I remember Cale telling you that. I was like what he said, listen, there's a ruined college. You don't let him off the campus until they signed. He never let him off the campus. And so I remember a three day pair of panic, Oh my gosh. And then and he obviously went back to San Antonio, which for him was the right decision. Then we had a crazy decision and UM, you know, for a second we thought we'd get all three, but we didn't have money. But for two think about that decision. If Tim duncan had decided to come, we would have to make a choice between Tracey McGrady, Tim Duncan and Grant Hill. And back then it probably been Tim and Grant because uh, we didn't know Team Mac was gonna be my Tea Mack was at that point. So the Team Mac man I he was another one just he was a natural. UM could do everything, could score, could pass, could really defend when he wanted to. Um, you know the thing that hurt Tea Mac with us was Grand Hill got injured. You know, I never saw Grant. Really, I think the two and a half years I was with Granted, he played ten games, so they played. He only played forty seven games between the two thousand season and the two thousand and fourth seasons. So yeah, and that was that was rough because you know, we had put so much of mine into that and then you know that it's smart He's injured Kim Boy and and that changed. It really takes my future, you know, probably for the best you can look at it, because it leaves it led me to Boston. So at the end of the day, it was probably the best thing. But there's a lot of times in your life you think the worst thing is happening and it turns out to be the best best. Yeah, I want to backtrack a little bit with the for the people who don't kind of know the story. You said with Tim Duncan and his girlfriend, Team Market said the situation where it was a situation that he said, you were the team wouldn't allow family to travel and that kind of deterred Tim's decision. You said, that's kind of not how it went with it. No, it isn't, but it's it's true. Like Tim, Tim uh the firdson, we are allowing families on board, and at the time we hadn't done that at all. And when we had our story our talk, I said, no, I'll be open to that, just that every trip, um you know. And so that was not a big deal. But it was a factor. There's no doubt about that. Uh. But let me just say that Tim called me and say, Doc, I want to come, but one thing, uh, my girlfriend has to travel. I would probably, especially back then, asking what seat do you want? You want? You want? You wanted to you wanted to fly the plane too, what she needs? Tell me whatever, whatever works, you know, but that you know, I'm sure that that was a small factor because she did travel a lot. I guess I didn't even know that, uh with them. And you know, Matt, you you you played for me. I had no problem with families, very open with that. But the problem with families traveling using was the players were coming to me and say, hey, man, such and such wife is traveling too much. Hey doc, Hey, Doc, just let me say this, from being Tim Ducker's friend, you were a great judge of character. We're gonna leave it at that exact real quick before we get off this duo um in your opinion. Knowing Grant, knowing what t Mac turned into, how great could that a duel have been? If Grant could have been healthy. I think we would have been unbelieving. And then think about this. We drafted Mike Miller too, so we won rook of the year. He won rook of the Year that year, right, yeah, yeah, man. We had one game maybe I think it was one or two games where we started Grant Hill, Te Mack and Mike Miller to one, two and three, our smallest guy with six eight. Oh. I remember we played in Minnesota and just destroyed them because all three can handle, all three could play, all three can shoot. It was it was beautiful to Washington play and unfortunately it never happened. So those two together because because Grant was such an unselfish player, he need to be a score uh and Mike was such a great shooter. I think the fit would have been perfect. Well, Pete, I mean you touched on earlier. People don't realize how good Dominique was. People, unless you're a real basketball you don't realize how good Grant Hill was prior to his injury. He was pasted to be a top ten player in the history of the game comparing in the Micael Yes, you know, like I don't think anyone most like I know, like when I talked to Austin, the great example in Austin was there, but he was so young. Doesn't understand you know he remember te Mac only you know, uh because the team Mack was this guy. Uh. You know because but when you I used to say grand Grand and Austin remember was hurt. Yeah, you know. So it's amazing how many of the young guys if you mentioned grand Hill, he probably think you mean the commentator on Team Tams, the killer, the killer, the killer from Detroit. That's what I padded my game after grand actually drew more fouls. Do you remember drew files like that? That grand Hill cut across the lane. I mean it was being able to cross over at full speed. It was he was a dunk on you. Uh. Two thousand three playoffs against a tough Pistons team up three one, can't close it out? How rough was that moment? Like I said, you guys have developed amazing rough. It was rough, But listen, we were eight c you know, people forget like and I have the unfortunate history of losing three three one leagues, but uh, we were in the eighth c Have you ever go and looked at those two teams, Like I always tell people on that I actually got more credit for getting up three one And that's the fact I want you one day to go look at the teams. Uh that team detried to end up winning it. Yeah, you know they were loaded. They were loaded. Um and I still to this day thing I'm the creator of Tayshawn Prince because we had them on the Wrotes and um, Tashawn Kings in game five, you know, he hadn't played much. They didn't play him much at all. And then uh Rick Carlisle puts it in Tashawn Prince and at the end of that game, like he plays really well and for game five he starts game six. By game seven he was like their go to guy. Uh. It was crazy how quickly that changed. And you know they started double team in Tea Mac, which they should and we were throwing it to you know, Andrew the Clerk and Gordon Gear said they might didn't have we didn't have a lot of places to go and we knew that going in the series. Uh, but they didn't double team him early and Team mack Tea. Max single handedly got us at three one, and then unfortunately he struggled from there, but not because of him. They just sent the whole team at him, and they dared somebody else in our team to beat him. Yeah. So next season get off to a rough start eleven games. You guys part ways looking back on that Orlando experience, what was the most frustrating part about the whole thing? Well, that we couldn't get healthy. I mean, no brand Hill. That's the bottom line. Um, we didn't traded Mike Miller, which turned out to get terrible trade because of no brand Hill. We're trying to get more players, right, So it was that thing set up the whole thing. Um, it was time to go. Honestly, and I don't say that often, but uh that that next year we started out like three or four starters are out on a on a very below average team. Um, you know, I'm being honest. It was I felt like when John Gabriel walked in my room, I was like, I hope he's telling me that he was ready. He said, yeah, I was ready, and I think they were ready to they need to go in another direction. And you know, I always look back on that. Without that start, I wouldn't be here. So you got you take a break, do a little bit of TV. What was it like getting call from the Celtics, Well, it was crazy. You know. The first day off my job, Isaiah calls me and he wants to talk about New York and I told her, I said, a new way in my coaching right now. I'm taking the rest of this year off, gonna chill. I got to do uh the NBA with with with al Michaels. Think about it. I was doing the NBA games with the great Al Michaels, who's become one of my best friends and and so that was cool. Uh, It's funny. Danny calls me and says he wants to um talk and I won't. I said, no, man, you got a coach right now. And he was like, Doc is an interim coach? I said, Dany, I just I don't want to be seen talking to you. It's just that, you know. So I was all concerned. So Danny, as Danny ainge is, He says, alright, Doc, it's an interim coach, all right, So um, why don't you let's meet okay and just talk and we'll meet in a place where like nobody will know. And I said sure, and I said, I'll do that as long as the one can see us. And I say when he said, right now, I'm at the Ritz out at Disney in a suite I went to so you know, already flown in and it was crazy. So I drive way out. We're in a room talking and he says, I want you to be the coach and I said, man, I don't. I don't know Danny that you know, if you looked at that team back then, they were that very good and he had his whole plan, like he kept talking about this plan and so I said no. Um. And then about you know, right when they fired the interim coach, he calls and say, hey, man, open your gate. That's how he called. Like he didn't call and say he wanted to talk. He tells me to open my gate. Um at my house and I look, there's an suv outside. And so I opened the door and Danny and all three owners walk in, no heads up and nothing, no heads up at all. Yeah, And I started laughing and I was like, Danny, man, you're you're an aggressive dude. He started laughing. He says, I know what I want. Um, I got a plan. Uh, you're in the plan. And so I took the job, you know, And it was it was I'm glad that I took the job, guys, because it was the Celtics, not because they had a team that you thought you could win with at that time. I took the job because, you know, and I remember saying, if the Celtics, the Lakers or the Knicks offered me a job right now, I gotta take it because those are the teams you know, for me growing up, you would have to take. So what was Danny's vision that actually became your vision after that? What was he selling you on outside of the tradition of of of being a Celtics coach that we're gonna rebuild, Um, we're gonna do it through the draft. We're gonna do it through free ag and see um, and it would take three or four years. Uh. He did say one thing, and he was right. It's it's gonna be a couple of tough years for you. Uh, but I'll protect you now, you guys know, like I know, that doesn't happen often. Uh, it really doesn't. So I I tell coaches all the time I was one of the lucky ones. Like we were. We lost eighteen games in a row. Um. We were struggling, and I had a DM every single game. And I'm not exaggerating. At every game. If he wasn't there, he would call, I'm sorry, hanging there. I'm sorry hanging there. Trust me, we're gonna get this right because they were. I mean, I was getting booed. Um. There were there were games where people were paper bags with fire, doc fire, Daniel Um and I used to come in sometimes I'm like, Danny, you're off scouting somewhere. You don't have to take this heat every day. I I gotta take it every day, every press conference. I mean, I'm getting Remember Bill Simmons was pushing to get me fired because I wasn't playing Marcus Banks. You know what, like, oh, hey, don't say excuse me, coach, I don't. I don't mean to interrupt you, but don't say that name too loud. On this show, Matt, Matt has nightmares of Marcus Banks. We can't really tell you the story, but just no, that has nightma Marcus Banks, Marcus Bank crossed him over, doctor, and he never forgot that. He's never forgot it. Matt random down and drive to herd phone that I should have the way he crossed me in our trips. But back to your story, Fuck you Jack, Back to your story. Doctor. Yeah. So that was, you know, And so it was crazy because we thought we were going to get the first one pick in that lintery with Katie Um and Greg Oldham, right, and you know, we're sitting in the room, remember in the draft when they did the lottery. You're talking about a depressing moment. You know, we lost all these games, we're struggling. We got Paul Pierce, so we know we got one, and then we get like the fifth pick, and I'm sitting around thinking. And the thing that I remember the most about that day Danny was not that Danny had a second He's already and already moved on. And he immediately said, we're gonna get Kevin Garnett. We're even go out to Kevin Garnett. And I'm thinking, all right, well, Paul and Kevin, we got something going. People don't remember that Kevin turned us down. Kevin had a no trade cause in his contract, and so we had a deal for Kevin Garnett on draft day and Kevin said no, I'm not coming you'all You're all not good enough. And so we didn't did half of that trade and went out. We got Reality. And so then Kevin caused his agent and says, wait a minute, they got Paul Pierce and Reality, I want to come to the Celtics. The problem is we gave Way half the package to see Adam, and so I'm thinking, now we're not gonna get Kevin. And I remember the day that I knew we were gonna get him. I was golfing with Michael and Danny and Johnny Joe, our equipment manager, and um, Kevin and I am the card and Kevin says, man, I just want the best young big man a belt. I don't care what else I get. And right when he said that, I was thinking, we're gonna get Kevin Garnett because Al Jefferson was the best young big man in the league. And right when he said that, I just figured I didn't know who else. I remember when Danny told me to trade. I don't remember it to this day. I just know Al was in it. And I'm telling you it felt like eight other guys like Danny gave him everybody and the only one that Danny would not give up. Was Randa you want to kid? KG said he wanted to keep that African kid. We had uh KG on the podcast, And to back up a little bit, he said he was waiting for Kobe to hit him back. He said he was back and forth. He said he really wanted to go play with Kobe, but he said Kobe wouldn't return his calls at all. And then I guess right actually, and then that's what led to you guys. But he said one thing, one of what he told us on the show was one thing. He's like, you know, y'all gotta keep that African kid. Funny, Uh, it ends up being Rondo. So how important was it to keep Rondo? From his point of view? And then what you guys saw Rondo's potential to be for that team, well, we're gonna win it without. I mean, he was the orchestrator. Um And you guys been around Rondo a little bit, right, stubborn, hard noses, competitive to do and to keep those three happy, you needed somebody that. Yeah, and it was rare when you see a guy in his second year right willing to tell Paul or Ray or Kevin. Just back up, I got this, you know, because he has supreme confidence, and so we needed a personality like Rondo uh to kind of keep those guys in check. And rund was an orchestrator man like um the best game caller, you know how they call him baseball the catchers are great game callers. Runner was the best game caller I've ever ever coached. Like he knew. He's one of the few guys I would give you know, Matt, he saw that, both of you saw that place. She'd always keep in my pocket autos. I would give it one of the Rundo before every game. And so when we came to the TAMN time out, there were oftentimes I'm about to say, like slice twist runs already total he would already know it, or he would he would look at me and we'd say something like, uh, fifteen now at the same time, like our relationship that way, you can't get better, uh uh. When you're point guard and your head coach are a lot as far as offensively and what you should be doing. Um, it's it's a powerful filler. It's rare. I don't think you get that very often. We have the luxury of interviewing Rondo KG Paul. We just interviewed Perk last week, and you know, Rondo was adamant about you know, you shaped him not only as a player, but a man. And then to hear what he did for you and be able to hold that team accountable, that's a dope for me, interview. And that's just dope because he told me how much you meant to him, and then you're telling me how much he meant to that team. And obviously it was a special moment. It was. And you know, Matt, I remember when I first started coaching, I got a lot of bad advice from other coaches, honestly, that you don't get closer players, you don't talk get involved in their lives and there. And I couldn't disagree that more. I think you do. Uh. Now, Unfortunately, you'll lose a relationship here and there because you're being honest with a guy. He's in a place doing something in his life. You know, I don't get involved in the silly stuff, but I just get involved in the man stuff, you know. Um, And I just tell them the truth sometimes and sometimes that goes well and sometimes it doesn't. But at the end of the day, Uh, it needed to be said and you know, I'm glad I've done and with Rhondo and Peru because they were so young man Like, there are times you have to get involved. Um, that's not the way you carry yourself. That's not what you do, you know. Um. And they didn't want to hear it, and you know, both of them guys. Uh. But at the end of the day, what it did, it built a relationship that will last for ever. Absolutely. So what is your message? Obviously you got you got your own Big three. Now what is your message to that team? Because obviously on paper you look incredible expectations up through the roof. What are you telling the guys at this point right now? It's it's not a really a message matter, it's work like, Um, we have worked to do we're we were so far are from being there, um and and so. But the biggest thing I would say, the one word with this group is accountability. Like this team needed to be held accountable um for not just to play for their actions for everything, uh, and not just me holding them accountable. We gotta hold each other acco. We gotta all be accountable. And I think we're not there, but we're working on it. We're much a better I love it, Um, I probably pronounced it wrong. Tell me what that word? Men? And why will it so perfect for that team? It's really perfect for everyone in everyday life. A person is a person through other people. I can be all I can be unless you are all you can be. Um, I can never be. One of the greatest words in the Boot two and it's a philosophy. It's not just a word. Desmond too too, um and Mandela used it to unify Africa, uh and and and so when you go to Africa, they lived in they're trying to live in Boot to Life, um. And one of the greatest words or mean parts in it is this thing. I can never be threatened by your good because you're good means I'm good. You guys have been on teams where when one player starts being good, another players threatened by it. You know what I mean? The clappers? Yeah, yeah, you said that. But you know what's funny, Matt, You noticed I didn't use the boots and stuff. Every just different. You know It's funny, Sam, Like, why won't you use in booting with this group? I said, because we don't. We don't. I'm not using that word. I'm not even using it, you know, and so that team didn't. Unfortunately, that that team bugs me to this day. You and everybody else, Doc, you and everybody else, Man, I tell you, and Matt you you probably heard about some of the meetings. Hold hold, hold, hold hold, but let's get let's get through that. We're gonna get there. Let's get through the Celtics because I want to hear about this. So after you know, you get through, you picked the word. You guys are bonding with it. What are practices like? Because, like I said, that was one thing that all four of those guys had mentioned, that practices were fucking wars. It was awesome. I gotta tell you on that word though. So I've come up with this word. I get it introduced to me by a trustee at Marquette. I'm on a board at Marquette as a trustee, and another one told this lady told me I need to study this word, and I did so I love it. So I decided the first day of practice is in Rome, and so I grabbed big baby Leon Poe. I can't remember the other rookies, but those are two of them, and we sit in my room for about two hours. It's like study all and I told him they're gonna present this word to the t and they can see that I was not messing around, like it ain't a joke, Like we're not gonna fun with this, You're gonna present this. And I gotta tell you, Liam poem baby. That next day they threw down like they they hit every point everything, And so they call in Celtics one to three and boot two and then practice starts and this Matt the first practice, guys, this is what I knew. I said, we're on the south. Paul Pierce calls one of those superstar files, you know. In practice, we're scrimmaging second unit versus first un. Paul gets filed. That's a fire. Um pose like, no, you ain't getting that, and Paul says it's a fault. You know, Paul, I want the ball, and so me and Tom Tipoteau was sitting there and tips it looks at me, you're gonna get involved as an So I want to see where this is going. There there are doing and then uh, Posey just grabs the ball to Paul's hands and inbounds it and they started going the other way and Eddie House makes it three and starts talking crap, you know, Eddie House, Tony Allen. Tony Allen then picks Ray, goes down and dumps the ball and it starts talking and Leon, I mean Leon poem baby. They were just all they're on the first unit, They're like, no, we don't care who you are. Y'all not beating us. And the second unit destroyed them that first they beat them all three uh scrimmages. And on the bus back they're all the talk because the phones wouldn't work, which I thought it helped, you know, we're in Europe. That next day, it was it was a devastation the first unit. I mean they beat the second unit so bad it was unbelievable. And every day it was back and forth and you loved it. Yeah. Man, if you got a second group, or if you have road players that have the ability to keep the stars accountable. Uh that that didn't they understand who they are. But we let you get away with Cradic. Man. You you gotta held the team and that's what we had. Posing was huge on that team because of that. What was it like having Kg and his energy around every day? Because his energy is not just on the court, it's off the court, but particularly on the court, what was it like his energy and how infectious was that? He's his hope. He changes the culture just with his actions every day. I've never seen a superstar that holds himself so accountable to the team and every day. You know, me and him have have some m f days because I was trying to take him out of practice and and he didn't want to come out of practice. Now. He used to mumble crazy stuff like warriors don't come out of practice. Warriors don't come out of practice. I was like, all right, warrior, were you just gotta sit down right now? But was no Problian've told you so. What he would do when you took him out of practice. He would start standing on the sideline and mocking what his guy was doing was in for him, Like the guy jumped, he would jump the guy sleet. He was like he was running on the side of the court like he was running in the scrimmage. And I'm sitting like this dude is crazy. Yeah, And I didn't buy Like Kevin was one of those guys from Afar. You're like, there's no way this energy is real. Come on, man, nobody's got this much energy and then after two days of practice, I was like, this dude is real. It's for real, and it was every day. I loved how he held everybody accountable, Uh, don't mess up and shoot around Matt now with KG Man and then by the end of it, which I knew was was hilarious. It Rond will start doing it like Rondo knew every play from five years ago. He knows everything and with Ronda, with me and Tom Thibodeau, he couldn't wait for us to make a mistake. Oh, he loved it. It It made his day. He would actually laugh like around if I actually said, um, you know like Matt Burns, you know he goes right now, no no, no, no, he goes a loud. I mean it made you study like you're just right. This little joker is gonna be on me. So it was a great group to go. I have a question from the outside looking in, from the three superstars, it looked like as players when we watched that KG was kind of the one that took a step back and allowed Paul to continue to be great, ready to do what he does, and he just plugged any kind of hole you guys had on any either side of the ball. Yeah, I would say that's true, even though I thought Ray probably had to give up the most shots. Yeah, you know, um so, but KG was the easiest in that respect, like KG would do anything. I got on KG. You more. Uh, And I hope Paulden told you the story. Before the Cleveland game one, I kept saying the word twenty. I said, so twenty, and the word is twenty, And I kept saying twenty, and everybody was looking at me. Kevin Garnett has to take twenty shots. Twenty shots. I said it like nineteen times, and finally the whole team started joining in. Kevin was pissed because you know, I kept because we needed him. I think Antoine Jamison was a power forward and that was an advantage for us um and so Kevin that first couple of games went off. But we needed him to do that because you have to get on Kevin to shoot because he was such a team player, uh that he wanted to keep the ball moving and play it right way. And I used to tell him, you know, Kevin, sometimes we're moving the ball to you, we don't want you to pass it once it hits you, you know. But he was great. Yeah, So uh sixty six wins that season. Uh, elite defense. But when you guys get to the playoffs, it's wartime seven to take the Hawks take you to seven, the Calves take you to seven. Uh. Lebron had just coming off taking his team to the finals. UM that game seven Verse Cleveland, UM, talk to us a little bit about that. That was a war. You know, our team hadn't been tested. Now, we didn't lose two games in the row that whole year, you know, so I was worried going in the playoffs. Someone asked me before the playoffs started, what's your one concern? So we had no adversity. You know, usually you have to go through something. And so that seven game series against Atlanta was exactly what we needed. Um, because we lost two games to Atlanta because of the city of Atlanta. I'm just gonna stop there. I live doc. I know city of Atlanta is undefeated. Man, It's it's unbelievable. So we learned that lesson, like, man, you gotta do your job. Then we get to defending Champs and Lebron and we get to a game seven. Man, Paul Pierce and Lebron. If you ever get time to watch a game, those two guys. They they were they were going and they were matching. It was very similar to the Dominique bird game. And they were matching played by play and the two biggest plays. One was a high school blockout on the on the jump ball, they had inside position and Lebron didn't box out Paul and Paul Dovan got it in front of his legs. That gave us the ball. And then what we call the greatest wonder of the world happened. Eddie House passed the ball. He passed it to p J Brown, and p J Brown made a big shot. UM, and think about that, how fourth that you are? P J Brown over All Star Break and retired All Star Breakers in New Orleans. And we decided to get in our car and go knock on his door and go get him. And we went and got him. So he was big for us. You get Detroit and six. What was memble about that series? Well, Detroit was the defending champs. They were the team to beat. Like going into that season, we knew for us to make it to the finals. UM, and what was crazy number one? We knew it was the Lakers. The Lakers are gonna win the West. Everyone knew that day, Like, yeah, he was on a mission, you know. So we were thinking, Okay, we we gotta beat Cleveland and we gotta go through Detroit. Uh. We had lost a home game in the playoffs, and then game two, Detroit comes in and beats us. Uh. Then we go back and beat him in game three and then close it out in game six on their floor. Um, it was funny, Matt like and and and Jack y'all both noticed. But it's funny how people set these like the Clippers. Remember everyone said you gotta get to the Western Finals. I was like, that's it, That's that's not what I want exactly. So it was funny, like I was. I was, I didn't stand on the stage. That's a like single minded championship. If you ever look back when they're giving us the silver ball, I didn't stand on the stage. That's kind of stood off because what what I wanted it so like I don't know why, but I just remember coming in and um after, you know, because you're supposed to celebrate it, because you gotta enjoy the journey. So I come in and we're all celebrating, and I say, guys, this is great, but we don't want to silver ball, I said, so let's enjoy this moment, but it ain't about the silver ball. And so I think when you're on that journey from for people on the outside, they're looking at how great that is, and that's an accomplishment, but it's not what you want. It's not what you're in it for. And so that's what that felt like to me, Like it was awesome. You know, we're going to the finals. I didn't know what to expect. You know, I was a coach that had never coached in the final. I didn't know like what to expect. I just knew it was the Celtics and it was the Lakers. And I'm not kidding, it's exactly who we wanted to be there. Like we wanted the Lakers to win the West. We wanted them to win the West. We wanted to be us. And then absolutely so now you find yourself in the two thousand and eight finals, smack dab in the middle of history. Uh. You know, obviously with the two franchises and in their winning ways playing against Kobe. I want to drop right to Game four, down twenty four and the third quarter. What was that huddle like when you guys flipped that switch at the best moment maybe in my coaching career as far as just feeling, because I really believe. I kept telling tips like the gonna win this game. I kept telling tives, I gotta find the right combination. I bet I said that word. I gotta find the right combination. Something's not fitting here, something's not working here. Um. And we kept if you watch that guy kept changing lineups, uh because we just we couldn't score uh and something I just I couldn't figure it out. And then we fell on that any house Paul Pierce. Uh. We moved Paul to the four uh and took off that game. Um. And the best part moment for me was Jack Nicholson sitting next to me when we came back because we're down twenty four, and I kept saying, you know how coaches do cut it in six, Get it to six, team, get it to twelve. When it got to six, the game was over. You can feel it. And the only thing that I remember, you know about that game that's funny is Jack Nicholson kept yelling dug duh. He just kept calling my name, and I finally turned around and he said, we are dead men walking. That momentum is serious. You know, for real fans and obviously coaches and players, you feel that ship like the casual not not understand of that momentum is everything. And you know, if you could walk a team down in those kind of situations, it's tough to come out of. Yeah. And then after that game, the thing I knew, you know, I know becauld you never know. But the first thing I remember them saying, I think it's Lamrow. We got to play physical like them. And right when I heard that, you want Umber saying that this series is over because you are what you are. Absolutely, you're not gonna change in the finals. Yeah, and you're gonna start playing like us. They're not beating us. Absolutely, that's your game. That's who we were. We had some physical just naturally. It wasn't taught. It was who they were dogs right game six, you're fortunate enough to close out at home. From pre game to the time the confetti fell, what was the energy and mindset of the team in yourself, Well, we didn't have a lot of time. If you remember the whole story that um, we both took off that next day at the same time the Laker plane takes off. Our plane is broke. Then the family plane is broke. Now come on, we're in l A A. And both of their planes take off. So we're on the ground for like five six extra hours and finally we were laying at one am on the day of the game. UM. And so it was probably one of the best decisions I made as a coach. I didn't we didn't have shot around. Think about that. For being six NBA planals, we didn't have shot around. I said, hey, guys, I'll meet in the locker room thirty five on o'clock, just like normal. And we showed up and it's the first time and probably the only time that I walked in the locker room. I said, guys, we're not gonna win the night. We're gonna win by a lot. We're gonna play the perfect game to night. This is the night that we showed him who we actually are. UM. And you know, I had the benefit of that game of being able to know we're gonna win the game nine minutes. I mean, we're a forty, right, But the funny story, you know, the funniest story in that game. We're forty or thirty eight, but like five minutes left and I hadn't subbed. UH, and Tom Thibodeau all people who never subbs. Uh comes comes up to me and it was like, uh, because he used to say, Boston man, Hey, Boston man, you're gonna You're gonna sell. And I said, when Kobe goes off the floor, I'm gonna sub. But until Phil takes Kobe out, I'm not taking our guys out, which tells you what you felt about Kobe. Yeah, we're over like this, dude. Man, I'm just know I'm not taking any chance. And then right when Phil finally subbed and we subbed everybody out, UH, and I was listen, man, you guys are one and there's no better filling than winning. It's it's like you have blood transfusion with your teammates and with with your franchise. And it's why you should play sports. It really is. It's the only reason I mean to make a living. It's one and then the other one is manage If when you got a chance to win and you don't, you're gonna look back on your career um as a player, if it's nothing other than the team is better. It's gonna always bother you. And I don't care who you are. At least for me, that's what it would have been. Absolutely. I remember, you know, we're fortunate enough to get one of Kobe's last interviews and he said that series right there to him was the series that always haunted him, that would make him sick, the fact that you guys handled him like that to win the championship. I remember talking to him right after the game and he's crying, he's got tears in his eyes, and I could feel his energy, like literally feel it. I told a couple of guys after the game, and it was not an energy of sadness. It was an injury. It was I'm gonna get you, gotta see you. It was not I told a couple of our guys and said, that was not a yeah we lost, It was I'm gonna see you, motherfucker. Yeah destroy you. You can feel it like you can feel it, and um, you know he got us back intent Uh you know, but and that was that was obviously the hardest loss for me as a coach. Uh, you know, losing Perk, having a lead in that game. Um, you know, I'm not gonna saying, but the second half is called differently. I'm over it. I'm over it. But come on, man, yeah yeah, so uh getting so getting there? I mean obviously the next season, you know, you know with with the basketball guys, you guys have a small window to you know, to repeat and win as much as you can. You guys get off to a hot start. KG goes down. What is the thought when KG goes down to February, Oh the birs. We had the best record, and I think we were like twenty three and four and three, like we were rolling, and um, I remember I see it still. Kevin was just running out of the court in Utah when no one around and grabbed the back of his knee, and I just remember Eddie Lissera Train was like, oh God, that's not good. And I was like, what do you mean? And he said, an injury when no one around is the worst injury you can have. It's a real injury, because that's a real injury. And so you know, Kevin never came back that year. Um, the fact that you know, we almost made it the final still without KG tells you about this team. Uh. But Kevin was never the same. Uh, And and I truly believe that he had a stayed healthy. We didn't want at least two, um, maybe more, but he was never the same, probably by seventy of himself. Uh from that point on. Uh, and he never had the endurance. That's the thing to Steward out to me when you returned, his endurance was never the same. Um. So you know it changed your fate. But listen, just to be even to coach Kevin was worth it. Jumping the head to to two thousand and ten. You guys are the fourth seed. Obviously a chip on your shoulder from the year before everyone counted you guys out. Um, you guys take care of business. You guys in uh Lebron's running Cleveland for a little while. UM. I remember I'm on Orlando at the time and we're sweeping through the playoffs were eight and oh we had beat this ship out of Jack and his team in the first round. We handled Atlanta, and then I remember, particularly uh Stan Van Gundy, He's just like, you know this, you know, we can't be fooled by the record, you know, I mean, they're they're they're this, they're a veteran team, they've won. We got to make some changes and we end up changing up our whole approach, offensive strategy, plan, go to so we're kind of in shambles. You guys come out and just jump on us. And you know, obviously we were able to take it to six games, but we never ever to really find our footing in that series, and that leads to the rematch in two thousand and ten between you guys and the Lakers. Talk to us about that. You talked a little bit about it, but talk to us about that. Well, we knew it was a hell of a series, and we knew they were gonna have a different mindset like the first time. Uh, in eight, we were so much more physical than them. Um. And you could tell in Game one Paul Gasaw the way he was playing. They had home court advantage. Uh, they were, they were. They were as physical as us and that probably to the but they were different. Um. And you knew it was gonna be a war. Um, and it really was. The series played out like we thought it would. You know, Um, we got up three too. I thought Game six was the game now like we were playing. Well, we got up and when Perp got hurt, um and just hurt our Like Perp was more than a player for us. You know, a certain guys, man, it's not always the numbers. It's not always the numbers. I guess would be like dreamind Green getting hurt um uh for Golden State and it just hurt our spirit. Um. Speak to his importance though, because I think Perk, I mean, we know as players what he did and what he meant to basketball. But I think you know, he takes a lot of heat now because he wasn't the guy that put up big numbers, but I know how important he was to chemistry and leadership and that kind of stuff. And I'm glad to hear you say that because you know, losing him in Game six obviously was huge for you guys. So it was huge. I mean, he was our enforcer. He allowed Kevin to beat Kevin, Like, you know, Kevin didn't have to do any of the dirty work because Perk did it all, you know for him. Uh. He was a phenomenal defender. Uh. He wrote, He did all the things you asked him to do, and he was such an intangible player. Um. I mean pers like I was honest with if I ever call you a number, he was a mistake, Like I'm not going to you, but you're gonna get it anyway. You're gonna get Um, you're gonna run the floor, We're gonna throw it to you. So Perk did everything you asked him, like he was the perfect player to have on the championship team. And um, you know he was over himself, like he didn't he wanted to win. It's what drove him. And so he wasn't worried about himself. Uh, and losing him and his toughness and his spirit. When you think about the Lakers had twenty three offensive rebounds in Game seven, you're not winning that game and we still could have won. But that also doesn't happen with Perk in there though. You know, that's not gonna happen to Purpose in there. And then Perk also is not just gonna allow some of this stuff like put somebody down. Yeah, that's just pert, you know. And so um, you know, listen, that's that was a tough one because that was a close team. Rashid Wallace was on that team. Gave us everything that he had. You know, it's one of my big regrets, Like Rashid never got in great shape that year. And you know, if I could redo that, I would have I would have made sure he was in better condition because it came down. I mean, he was such at that age where he had to be careful, you know, But it came down to us needing him for thirty five minutes and he didn't have it, Um, and and that that changed the fortune of that game. Um. Looking back on the obviously Lakers going to win that championship. Looking back on it, obviously, you know rest in peace, Code were just a little bit over a year from losing him and Gig and everyone else. What was it like competing against him? You said it in the first championship run like Funk being up thirty until Kobe goes off the floor. I'm not seven, So what was it like going at him twice in the finals. He was a perfect opponent, Like he was a guy like if you could, as a kid, could script the villain, the opponent you wanted to go against, it's him. But that's Kobe, Like he you knew if you didn't bring it, he wont Like you knew that, and so it just made you prepare. It made you getting ready and it and you guys have been around him, play with you know, it's more than just play as mental too, like you have to have them, you have to have mental toughness to play against any game that Kobe was in. Um, and you have to sustain his greatness and be okay with it. Uh. I thought Ray Allen, like Ray didn't get enough credit. Ray was had no issues guarding Kobe. You know, whether Kobe played well or not, Ray was. I'm the next day Ray showed up, was ready again. Um, and you need that tight because Kobe is Uh. Elijahlan was one they can take your soul away. Like if you don't watch it in your series with a Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan's Lebron, they they're playing so well, it takes your goodness away, you know, and then you don't play well anymore. We saw that with with David against Elijahlan in that series with San Antonio. You know, Elijah David played good in this series, but Elijah On was so dominant that it just kind of took your spirit away. And and Ray was phenomenal. Ray. Ray showed up the next day ready to go. It was awesome. Uh. Summer two thousand and ten, UM, Lebron and Boss go to Miami to build their own Big three. What's the reaction from you guys? Uh? You know knowing you guys are getting a little bit older, knowing you guys you know, did it a different way. But they created it through free agency and talking to each other and jump And what was your guys thoughts about them being able to create their big three in Miami? It didn't bother us. Um, you know, I knew, listen, I've been around the league. I knew the clock was ticking in. It was really taking you know, you know it starts speeding up at the end. That was our clock. Um, and I really thought after ten, we may have just jumped out of that window, you know, but we were still so tough minded. Uh we got up three two and them you know, um, you know, not the first year but the second year that we played him, and that was even crazier because we were older. We didn't have a great team, man, but it was our mental toughness. Literally just almost beat him. And then that's the game to me, Lebrian Game six in the garden, Like you know, it's funny you go back and you look at your game plan, your game plan when Lebrian making threes from everyone you know, and he did, and you gotta give it to Uh. Then we went in Miami and almost beat him in that game seven. So they were just tough. You know that that team, it's a great example. You can put a team together, but you gotta become a team. UM. In the first year in Miami, they lost because it was all about those three guys. It wasn't a team. They didn't include the Chalmers and everybody else, you know, But that following year they did, and that's when they wanted. So the biggest thing with Lebron I'll share this is we played him in Cleveland, Lebron just showed up and played games. When we played him in Miami, Lebrian knew the game, he he knew our calls, he knew what we were running. So he had a change in his approach. UM, And I don't know who got to him or whatever, but it was when you saw it, you knew everybody was in trouble. So they they go on to win that UM in a tough game. Did you guys kind of know that was the beginning of the end for you guys in twelve? Yeah? Yeah, I mean it was. It was pretty obvious. UM. Danny was already talking about it. UM almost stopped coaching in eleven. I think, Um, you know at that point, what eight seven years in a row in Boston or eight years in a row in Boston, five years in Orlando, And I was thinking, man, I need a year, you know I do? And what happened. I think the lockout was a savior. It was awesome Christmas and that gave me a break. And I was so fortunate because that was awesome freshman year in college. So I got to watch every one of his games up until, you know, after Christmas, which was cool for me, and it kind of gave me some more juice. So I went back and coached that that one more year before leaving. So Ray's departure in two thousand twelve was that, uh surprise to anyone? Everyone? Did anyone know talk to us about that? You know, it wasn't a surprise. It wasn't completely wasn't surprise, but it wasn't complete surprise. I knew Ray wasn't happy. You know. Um, this is where coaching gets tough, and I think players will never understand and unless they get into this is where you got Ray, you got Rando. You gotta coach them both and like them both, but each guy wants you to like the other one more and I like the other him lass and so you're you're kind of stuff, you know, Matt. You saw a little bit about that me in in l A. And it just puts you as a coach and in such a difficult position. Um, because we wasn't getting rid of Rundo, you know. Uh. And so it just got to the point where Ray was Ray was out. Um. You know when I was pissed too, because he was going to Miami all teams of all teams not that you know, but it was funny like I got over it quick like at the end of the day, you know, we go into Miami, I get up and make sure I've talked to him, give him a hugead and talk to him since at that point, uh, and our guys getting home shoulder. Uh. And I told him after the games, man, we y'all gotta get over that, bro. This guy helped us one the title. They're still not over I was say, hey, no, what we talked to was over it. It's crazy. I tried to getting all last year proposed retirement. I tried to get involved. I had I thought I had Ray talked in the coming. Um, he was worried, you know, by getting booed, which he would not know. Fansom and then Bryan doing them got to doing their stuff again, and I just respectfully stepped back. Huh. Yeah, I said, I'm out of this, and I'm like, I gotta coach these guys here. But I do hope man that they can. They gotta get it together. They meant too much of each other. Yeah. Uh, summer thirteen, it's time to rebuild. Um KG and Paul go to Brooklyn. You get traded to the Clippers, a coach being traded. How did how did how did that trade come about for you? Well? It was crazy. If you guys remember the whole contract thing with with with Sterling. I was just listen. I was so concerned because I heard from every coach about how he backs out of deals, that he wouldn't make coaches, and so you know, I literally had in my contract. Did any contract dispute happened? David Stern had to be the mediator, you know, because what Sterling had done, I guess in the past, was tie up deals in court because he knew he was a wealthy guy, he could tie it up forever. And so like I was telling you guys, like if I was doing that, Like, what the hell was I thinking about? You know? Now? Like what was I thinking about? And what I was thinking about was that team. They were loaded. They were loaded, and they're never getting there after it all finished, and within a week we have this j J. Rennick thing. You know. Well, the first thing I was told when I took the job that we wasn't gonna keep lads. And see, I thought starting leading Chris would have been an interesting backcourt. But they were saying, no, he's gonna want to get paid, We're not gonna pay him, and so we're gonna trade him. That's the one thing you have to do. And so I said, okay, um. So we ended up doing this deal for j J. Reddick, who I thought fifty team really well. And the deal was done. J J had agreed to go to Minnesota, he backtracked to come to us. We talked him in and change in his mind. Deals done. I fly back home to Orlando, I land and Andy Roser calls me and said that the j J deal is off. And I said, what do you mean is off? Sterling change his mind? So he can't change his mind. We we just agreed to a deal. You can't do that, and and so he said, doc because and MATH been around enough to know and he's not fighting now and Sterling nothing, so it leaves you to have to fight. And so I called him up. We are literally, I'm in the garage in Orlando, going back and forth with my owner. I've never had that like and and I'm screaming, and finally I said, listen, I quit, come out. You're not going anywhere. I won't allow you to go anywhere. And I said I quit, and I hoped the photo and so I drive home and I remember getting home, Uh, tell my act at the time, I said, uh, I don't think I'm the coach of the Clippers anymore. And I called my agent and tell him the same thing, and within thirty minutes and he calls me, great job. Uh the deals done. I don't know to this day why it was. It was just done. Sterling out a problem with jin because he was white. You know, think about that one. He had a problem with Jinja because he was white. Because he was white. He didn't want to pay a white dude jack the ship was crazy. Yeah, he didn't like white players for some reason. And I was like, oh my gosh. So that was the start of my Clipper career. How was it? I mean, like I said, I'm right in the mix with you. How was it building with Chris individually and then building with Blake as well? It was just different. They both were so different. Um. You know, Chris is the most competitive guy you could be around, you know, Um and and and so you know, man, I guess if I could look back, like there was damage done already before I got there, right, Um, and I heard about it, but you know, when you get in it, you see it. But it was such a passive aggressive It wasn't it was weird. Yeah, it wasn't weird. It wasn't in your face kind of ship. It was sneaky ship. Yeah. And that's what killed me. Like because you would have a talk with him both, everything's good. You would talk to them both, everything's good. It's a difficult group because they both were extremely competitive. Um. They definitely had something you know, Um I had. There was things that had happened before I got there that I didn't know. Um. And you know that you learned that. My job is to come in and try to get them to see past themselves. And you know, y'all you both have been on team. You don't have to love each other. You just have to figure out a way of giving each other room to play co exists and respect each other co exists. I mean Bill Russel when I was in Boston said the deepest thing, Like he said, if I'm the only one they can be great on the team, you can never win, right. I have to be great and give everybody enough room so they can be great in their space too. And that was like it just you know it was there was so passive aggressive, like I would have loved whatever. Whenever somebody on any team you don't like each other right at that moment, talk about it, get it out, call them a m f YEA. Our ship was Our ship was more sneaky subtles. It was just it would it would it never to a head. But you can tell good times bad times. There was always something, some kind of friction there that would hold us back. You know what for me as a coach, because my my job, Matt is um I feel like part of your job is to be a problem solved, right, And so it was difficult for me with that because you couldn't figure out what the problem was. Like it was the conversations that I had individually, as a group, as a team. You know, it was just there was always this cloud there. Would you agree with that, absolutely, but I felt like it was combustible something anytime it can blow up. But what I saw was it was black from the outside looking in because I was with the Lakers before, so it was Blake's team, and Blake kind of put him on the map. And then CP came and it was automatically handed to CP. So I know how that kind of caused some stuff. And then Deandre's rise. DeAndre was just the fun kicking homeboy, great rebounder, blocker, did all the dirty work. And then DeAndre started getting some shine too, So now there was three shining parts on our team, you know what I mean. And I just think that was for some reason that was an issue. I kept telling DJ, you be great. Stop waiting, you know, I kept saying, stop waiting, bro, like you should be Bill Russell. And and so you remember Matt I declared him the defensive captain of the day, and you know, like otardly, you think that's a great movement. It was. It really helped DJ, but it also gave DJ a voice and the problem with that was now you know, Chris has a voice, and Blake has a voice, and DJ has a voice, and so it was so interesting that group. I remember, you know, Dave Severance, who who was there before I was there. So he I remember late in the year the first year, because I said, man, and we gotta get this team together. We gotta get to and and I remember him saying, Doc, it's eighty times better than last year. And when he said that, It's scared the hell out of me because I'm thinking, if you think this is better. But I will say this about that team that first year, Matt, we were ready. We got to that Oklahoma series, that game that that we threw away like literally, um, we played at a point in that game which was unbeatable, and that loss open up all the wounds again. I mean, Chris has been he's been the perfect player. Just had three of the worst minutes ever ever. I mean even even things that people didn't know, like we're supposed to file, you remember, uh uh he didn't file, and then they got that's how Durrant got that there were more mistakes made than the people even knew, you know, and um, and then he was crushed. He was crushed. Um, but I don't know what it did. Like, I remember that next day in film I had I was gonna show the film, so we just go over it. And I walked in and y'all on me. You probably noticed to this moment um. I walked in the room and Chriss got tears in his eyes. I didn't even realize. And so I walked in and we're gonna watch film, and I motioned to our video guy, no film, M I couldn't show it. I you know, I just felt like, and this is may go a bad place. That was the start of the fall. Yeah, I want to back up real quick though a mad man. I was there two weeks and I felt it. Yeah, I felt and I was on. I was that short, you know, I would have stayed along with Remember Chris Paul broke his hand, so I had to make a trade to bring another point guard in. But I felt at the time now and and this time I was there. It seemed like the captives was j J and DJ, because everybody got along with those two guys, but the other two stars were basically spaced apart, and there were a lot of guys like having to play like double agents trying to work both sides. You know, I was, I know I was. I was the mender between the way Chris because sometimes I love Chris. We're still great friends. He lives around the corner, our kids are best friends. But Chris is old school, so the way he comes off is sometimes abrasive, but he means well. But with sometimes with DJ and Blake, I'd be like, well, Chris, all Chris is trying to say and I would just frame it a different way. They're like, all right, and go do it. You know what I mean? So it was just yes, but what but what? But but you know, you can agree what he was trying to get across was right. His delivery was just off and that was the part. So back in the day that wouldn't have been an issue because you can yell, cuss, do what every But it was different with this next crop of guys, like you had to kind of almost talked to him a certain way. And I was just like, come on, y'all, what the like? Uh? You know when I played I Walk in the Locker Room down made you sucked in that bro? All right, we win without you know, and you tell me you're right, You're right? You know, that's how we talked to me from but that also was pre cell phone, pre everybody social media. Yeah, I want to I want to backtrack real quick, doc Um and touch on the Sterling situation. Obviously, we're in the playoffs and and like you said, we were ready that season, and we were the team that, you know, the last team that knocked the Warriors off before they went on their runs. So we're in the midst of the playoffs and the Sterling situation happened. And I don't know if you get enough credit for the way you handled that ship. That ship was obviously couldn't have come in a worse time. We feel like we're a championship caliber team, and it just puts us in a terrible position. Walk us through that evening and the next day, Um, well you were telling us and and and how we're gonna figure this out as a team. And I was a gut punch, uh because we were rolling. We were rolling, and you know what, uh Andy rose again like and and stuff y'all found out about. He tells me this video is coming out, but it's not a big deal. Um, and so uh he says, I have it if you want to watch it, but it's not a big deal. So I'm like, it's not a big deal. I'm not gonna watch it. Seth comes running into our coaches meeting Matt five minutes before it's gonna come out on ESPN. It's a doctor. You gotta come watch this video. And so while I was watching, it was airing. It was too late, and I'm I'm pissed, Matt, like I am seething, probably the most upset I've ever been, like coaching a team at someone. So I'm seething, and Seth is there. He's like, you gotta calm down before you call. And so I call Andy twenty five times before me. He wouldn't to the damn phone. Um. So, when I walk in that meeting with you guys, I hadn't talked to anybody. I had no one to talk to, and so, and you know, like I didn't know what to do, Like I didn't know should I wear I didn't want to wear my Clipper shirts. I called a couple of coaches as a man, I don't know if we should wear a shirt, but if we don't wear it, like so, I mean, think about the decisions. We're talking about a damn shirt. But on the fly though, like you said, in the middle of a player on the fly, like I said, we had no preparation for none of this ship on the fly. And then I walk in with my shirt. Y'all got y'alls off, and y'all y'all shitty, like y'all who the whole team is is? You can see guys got their arms folded while I'm talking. And that's when I finally have to say, Bro, you listen, y'all. I'm Glenn Rivers from Maywood, but I'm mad. And the only thing I wanted, man, and I swear it like God, was guide me. Like the first thing I thought was about all y'all you dj was please don't let them say something that then they become the story. Um, because the worst thing and and like you guys felt this a little bit in the George Floyd thing, Stephen, you definitely would do this. Um, people react more on the response you act on a guy who actually did the crime. Like we're stuck. Everybody wanted to know what the Clippers were gonna do, And I kept thinking the Clippers, but Donald Stirling, why are we worried about what we're gonna do let's focus on Donald Sterling. And so that thought kept telling me, let's have one voice. I'll be your voice. Whatever you guys tell me to say. Remember, you guys sit there and basically gave me what I was supposed to say, and so you guided me. Um, And that was really important because I didn't know what to say. I didn't know exactly what to say. UM. And I remember when we did that, and we got on the bus and maybe we went to Oakland to that to San Francisco univers San Francisco. Ye did you? And I've never asked you this. I knew it was a big deal, but I didn't think it was that big of a deal. Like I didn't because I yeah, because I I mean, I shared my story. I've been through real racism, you know, my school vandalized by the KKK, burning down buildings. To me, it was just another idiot who got caught talking bad about black people. But like I said, for those who haven't experienced anything like that, like some of the guys took it hard. But to me, it wasn't like and you know, and you and I had the same We were never playing for this dude anyway. We were never playing for Sterling. We were playing for us. Point to you guys, like we're growing up talking about winning the title. Don't start the wather. You're not dream right. We weren't thinking about that food, so to me. But when we pulled up and you've remember seeing all those trucks, it was crazy. I was shocked, Like I thought it would be a big story for ESPN in sports. It was a world story. It was a world story. When we walked in that gym and I saw like Tom Broke call and I'm like, oh man, you remember we y'all giving me what to say. We're Suppo was supposed to do it right away, and I went over in the corner the window. For a half hour, I had to gather myself. I was like, oh my goodness, Um, I gotta make sure I have I gotta represent these dudes. I got what what they just said. I gotta get because y'all we wrote it down. I didn't even really looked at it that much on the bus because I thought, you know, you know, sage, Steve is gonna ask me one question and we're off back to basketball. And then when I pulled up and I said there were hundreds, I was like, oh my gosh, this is big. This is bigger than I ever thought. Um. And the one thing I did know, I don't think I've ever shared with you this, Um, so you do know, like a moment. We got through that day and then that game. You remember I walked out. It was like three seconds left on the shot clock when I came out to the floor. The game started before Golden State because Donald Sterling was coming to the game. You had to try to put that fire out. Yeah, And so me and Andy are having a literally an MP session on the phone. I'm sweating. I'm in the hallways standing by the tunnel, yelling like he's not coming. He's not coming to this game. He cannot show up to this game. And finally, so when I walked out, I didn't know if he was coming to knock. So I'm nervous, thinking this is gonna be nuts. Um. And I turned to one of the coaches and he said, what do you think. I said, We're gonna lose and it's gonna be bad. Well, I mean, our mind was on everything but playing at that time. We had the world. We had, we had the world trying to tell us what we should do. Boycott, sit out, don't play the rest of the series. We're like, hold on, like we and I understand where everyone thought their in opinion, But like we said before we started, we felt like we had a championship caliber team, So we're not gonna let that come crashing down because of an idiot ass owner. Like our goal is still although we probably shouldn't have said we should have said the way they whipped our asks, we should have just said, you guys can have this game, We'll see you back in l A. That would have been in retrospect. I know the saved us some time because they jumped on us. Um. It was just it was one of those days where there's no way. And then you remember we got on the bus and Shelley Servings on the bus and oh my god, I don't know yeall did it that day for me? Like it was when the day was already bad. We just got blowing out fighting with people about not letting the owner come to a game. And then I get on the bus and Shelley is sitting on the other side. I was like this, this this gotta be one of the worst days. Um, And we got through it, Like I thought, you guys Handlewood really well, each guy got one and it was funny. Mat if you remember, you would get on you see Shelley, then your eyes would go to me and I would like just kind of you know what am I supposed to do? Because we lost, But at the same time, like he really but then I was at the same time kind of had the wherewithal that no, and they were already on the rocks. But she still was a reputation to him, even though she wasn't as deep in I like Shelley personally, um, but Donna was a monster. But anyway, so we go back to l A for the next game, and all remember all of our sponsors were blocked out like they had black pretty much all over the arena because all of our sponsor did backed out on us before the game. But the one thing I remember was the employees were gonna quit. Yeah, you got to talk to them that day, right, didn't you have to go down there? Yeah? We go, I mean shoot around him. I should be going home and driving town. I have a meeting with the employees at the Staples Center because any Rhodes are when they wall and so they wanted to quit, and it was the first time that I actually got emotional. I actually called Adam like literally in tears, like, bro, some y'all gotta do something here, someone's gotta help me. Like I'm not. I'm a coach, I should not be like T shirt They were asking me what colored T shirts for the game tonight and should we play music? And I was and it was nuts. I'm trying to win a game and get our guys like. That's also for me. The first time I realized I couldn't imagine for y'all how strong social media was because we wouldn't. I was old enough, Like I didn't deal with it, y'all had to. I was watching it live like you guys were getting Jesse Jackson was reaching out to you. Al was Sharpton. Uh. I was like, man, this these guys got so much on their shoulders. That was really the beginning of the social media movement, you know, where players started using social media for stuff outside of showing off whatever you were trying to show off. That's you know, Lebron took a huge stand, you know, after after the fact, you know, we kind of started saying we had to say. But that was really the beginning of social media and That's where a lot of the heat came from. But you guys should have did this. You guys will sell out. You guys are this, this and that. We're like, hold on, man, what the hell? But anyway, it's good. Yeah, so we we we get through it and we get to that game and beaton Golden State in game seven. It's satisfying, yeah, because they were good. We're the only ones that knew it though. It was like, no, we knew they were all the way. We knew they were next, and it was like, we had to do what we're supposed to do now because they were coming for sure. You can feel it. You can see that team. They were coming. So yeah, we come back to a great ovation. Uh you know, end up winning the series and seven lose to Okay, see Um the bomber era Um loved his energy. He came in with the right focus, and we really stopped we were heading in the right direction. But to be honest with you, everything was perfect, but the chemistry between the people who were most portshit. It was the guys we still couldn't get. We couldn't you know. The elephant was in the room, and he continued to get bigger and it was bigger then and you know by then it was way bigger. You know, it wasn't i'd still which was crazy, but we all knew it. And you know a lot of stuff transpired. But you know, we get to that Houston series, UM, and you know I still say this, if Chris didn't get hurt against San Antonio, UM, we were at least playing Golden State in the Western Finals, you know, because Chris was never the same either. UM. But that whole like, guess, listen that that's one of you know, people ask me often like what was what are your greatest success what is one of your failures? And I always said one of my failures. I could not figure that out. Maybe it couldn't be figured out, but I could not, like you guys saw it. I tried so many different things and it was just not going in as a coach. As a coach that that that have had locker rooms that you've been able to bring together, Boston being a prime example. What do you feel like the limit would have been to that team if we were all on the same page. I think, you know, you never can see you'll winning title. But that first year with Oklahoma, that that year we're playing in the finals, and I have no doubt about that. Uh. Now you don't ever know who's gonna win and all that, but we would have been a finalist, agree, you know, you know, but but that is part of being a champion, is not having that crap and and and so it just shows you you guys have been around the game. Just think how many teams have not one because the crap like that, right, and it's such a waste man like and over what, um, you know, if you win it as everybody's champion, everybody's whose name? Whose name is coming up fast? Whose team it is? Like it was? It was? It was a nightmare. Um. I want to jump ahead a little bit. What was it like? Um? Because I was actually the first person to address him when he came because I knew it was gonna be tough. What was it like having your your son coaching your son on a professional rank? You know that was hard. I didn't want to do it. Um. You know. Uh, Dave will who was the GM at the time he started it, but get before the year started, he said, Man, Austin is just a He's a diamond out the are that uh not playing well? We can get him for nothing, and he can really help this team. And I kept saying, well, that made me true, but no, that it just doesn't work because I think to do it, to make it work easy, he has to be the best frier the team or the worst player on the team. You know, if you're in the middle, it's a tough one. Yeah, And that's where he was at. And you know, he was a role player. And you know, whoever he played, if he played minutes and then somebody just as close to him, I think they should be playing. And obviously it's because he's my son, you know. Um, so it was very difficult. And then Austin is uh, he's got that prickly tough his personality, Austin tough like he didn't given in you know what I mean, you Ron, It's what makes him a good player, but it also what on our team made it worse sometimes because he was so uh hit strong. So when you put all that together, it did work at times. I mean the Houston series, should he won a game for us, you know, but it didn't work because we already had a locker room that was infected. So the only you couldn't bring in any other issues um, and by doing that, it just brought in another issue. I will say this after it was all done, and now Austin and I when we talk about it, it Uh, for us, it was awesome. You know, it wasn't at the time. But now when you look at it, the fact that I coached my son and the NBA, Yeah of course. Yeah, Bro, you look back at that like it's never been done, and uh it was. We had some amazing moments together. Um. You know, the day of trading him might have been the hardest one. You know. I remember calling him, you know, listen, calling the player for me to tell him they were being traded. And sorry, no matter who he is, because I do get try to have a room, I do get closer. I was that I was at Roscoe's when you called me, Doc, You're happy. I knew I was coming, Doc, I knew I was coming. I knew what was coming. So but it's funny. Austin is great man, Like he said, Dad, when you upset about it's time for me to go. Man, I need to need to show the like comparing my own I'm good, thank you, Like he was great. I wasn't one hurting. Yeah, you know, and he was probably sicking me by then anyway. So it was good, Matt, But it was hard. It was really hard. Um it's it's a hard thing to do. And I would just say this unless if if your player, if he's the best player, I don't think it'd be that hard. But when you're in the middle, it makes it hard. Fast forward a little bit. The Chris Paul trade brings you guys Lou Williams, Montres, Harold and a few other pieces. Um. Yeah, how how tough was you know you talked about speaking on Austin trading him. How tough with it to trade Chris? Well, it wasn't tough because we didn't trade him. You know, he decided he wanted to go, and I was this he wanted to go, But I got it. Like one thing I've always understood Matt uh and Jack because I probably I was a player. When players want a league, man, I didn't fight that, like if they if they think they can win it somewhere else. What what's wrong with me trying to Like that's something that I've never fought like, Um, it's I'm one of the few guys coaches I believe in free agency. I love the players. Man, if you can, if you can control control, you know, but once you get on that team didn't be coached. That's the only thing that I would say, you know, and so, um, yeah, I like so for christ it was tough because he left and um, you know, so I didn't like that he laughed and how he laughed, but he laughed and and so that basically threw us into you know what, we're gonna sign Blake or not? If we signed Blake, but we keep them or not. Uh, it changed our whole plans because we thought we were gonna get Keith CP. We thought we're gonna end up with Blake and end up with Gal I think, and we so we had a pretty good plan and it kind of all fell through because Chris one the league. Yeah, And honestly, it wouldn't worked anyway because Chris Blake. Things still wouldn't have gone away. That wasn't worked regardless, that wasn't changing. Um, talk to us what went down for you guys to pull off something even crazier than keeping that team together, which was getting Kawhi Leonard and and Paul George to come join you guys, that was the best plan ever. Um, you know, Uh, Lawrence Frank Coop, who, in my opinion, does not get enough credit for it. Um worked tirelessly every day. Um he would have cry means you know all season Kawai means, um, you know, just monitoring him, where is he at, what he's doing? Um. You know, honestly, because I've been through so many free agencies where you signed guys, the deeper Toronto went, the less I thought we're gonna get him. You know, to think a guy that would leave a team that led a team to a championship was unbelievable. Yeah, Like, so I didn't until you know, and then after they won, when you start hearing because you know, the lead speaks if you listen, you know, and all you kept hearing is he's still gonna leave. He's still gonna leave. And so right when I started hearing that again, then I felt like, well, he's gonna leave, he's come to us. We're gonna get him, you know. Uh, we're gonna have the best sales pitch, We're gonna have the best thing. Um. And to me, when I felt like we're gonna get him up, it was late. But when he decided to take the meetings with us, in the Lakers, and he told the Lakers, the Lakers wanted to have this big thing set up at their practice facility and all this stuff, and he wouldn't do it. He would only they had to meet him in his hotel room. But for us, he wanted to meet me at my house. And so when I you know, I'm thinking, if he's come into our house through my house, Um, he was telling me. But where I was impressed with him is the knowledge he had on the lead and even on our team, because I asked him, um, what do you think about our team? And when about going through names, he point blank said who he liked, who he did like, like I was. I was. I was shocked at his opinions and his knowledge. Uh. And then you know the guys that he wanted. He basically told us I want to come, but we're not good enough. And so that told us we had to go out and get someone. Uh and b G was the guy. Uh. You know, he named a couple of other guys and PG was the number one guy. Now quickly fast forwarding into the bubble Um obviously a crazy experience for everyone. We've talked to several guys who played in it, you guys were able to you know, obviously, muster up get through it. Um take us to that Dinner series because I was someone along with when we had PG on earlier. We kept thinking, Okay, they got one game, will win the next game. You know, I was thought for the first time, I was happy to see I'm like, yo, I fought my ass off to try to, you know, help this team. Put put a banner up, and we took pride in it, and I finally saw, like it look like, okay, man, they finally got the team that looks like it's going to get over the hump. And then you know, another collapse to Denver. What were the issues or what do you felt like you felt like were the problems with that in another three one drop, Well, the issues were the whole thing. The bubble was a disaster for us. Let's just keep it real like it was. Um uh. We had guys who didn't want to go from the beginning of it. We had guys that left the bubble. You know, I mean, come on, guys like we we It was such a tough Like I was so frustrated in the bubble because you know, and some of them wasn't you know, Trance's grandmother died and so he was gone for thirty days, and so what do you think about it? In the middle of the playoffs, we got Pat Beverley on a five minute in a row restriction. Couldn't buy more than five minutes in a row. UM. Transfer was at one point at twenty two minutes. Louis at like twenty four minutes. We're in the playoffs, um, and and you know it just we didn't. We never came together. UM. If you watch us right before the bubble, we were rolling and I thought, man, we're playing great, and then this season shuts down. UM. And I really believe, like you know, PG doesn't go through training count MRS the first with fifteen games plays like six games and MRS another month. Um. Up until the bubble, PG and Kauiet had two practices on the same floor, and so I was like, really, I was uncertained by it, Like, man, we've had no time together as a group. UM. And Denver like, listen, we're up three one, we're playing great. In the last that next game, UM, we gotta win that game, guys, Like listen, Um, we stopped playing in that game. Let's keep it real and you know. Um, I always sleep like I always start with me what could have done differently? Of course there's some kind of adjustments you could have made, I guess, you know, but what we were doing up until that point was pretty good, you know. And then losing that series, you know, losing game seven, like you I don't know, like you know, you guys have been in games before the game you feel good or bad, but you're you're rarely right, you know what I mean? Like, you know, man, we're ready tonight, and then you go out and you're not ready. Um. Going into Game seven, I thought we were ready all I really did, um, and we were awful. We couldn't make like when you look at statistically and I don't like analytics, but it was our second best shot quality of the whole season, meaning we got great shots at home, we just couldn't make any of them. And man, how many times when I said, um, you know, your offense will let you down. Sometimes you gotta lean on your kneeing on your defense, and we just didn't. Um. So, but that that series hurt me because, uh, listen, I don't know we would have beat the Lakers or not, but I felt like we were the whole year, the whole year. That was a team we wanted to beat. And that's what the world wanted to see, and the world wanted to see it. I wanted to see it. And like, man, that one, that one's gonna take a while to get over. Yeah, oh man, this has been amazing. We got quick hitters right now. First thing to come to mind, let us know, and I'm gonna start with the best moment as a player. Wow, that's a good The best moment as a player. Uh, you know what's funny, man, I didn't win an All Star Game. I mean I didn't win an NBA championship, but I would say that Boston Series just being in that series. Go ahead, jack favorite coach to coach against, oh Phil Jackson, of course, Yeah, I mean he was, he was the best. So yeah, you wanted to beat him. You got a chance to uh, favorite teammate? Wow, um ta can go with back, Yeah you are. I'm gonna go with probably John Starts. Um or yeah, John Starts probably was where I'll stopped. I just love I have a bunch of them. But that's my man. Love it. Yeah. Proudest coaching moment, proudest coaching moment was probably Game four in the Lakers series to come back, come back? Yeah, Um five dinner guests dead or alive. Oh, that's good, Um Nelson, Mandela, Martin, Luther King, Gandhi M Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gandhi would be great in that group. In Malcolm X one more it's U plus five Oh Malcolm X and then my dad. That's nice because I think you'd be great at that tables. Final question, who do you want to see on our show? Who do you want to see on All the Smoke? Well, y'all had it run ins with Austin, so I would say Austin, but because I think it'd be hilarious because you'll all three or fiery. I think it would be a great conversation. But I would love to see le Lebron on the show. He hasn't. I would love Lebron to be on the show because I think, Um, I think Lebron Man, we're gonna get something out of the doctor nobody have. Yeah, and he's been like and I got this respect for man because um, he was set up, did not do well from the beginning. Yeah, the fanfare that Lebron James had can't coming in. There's no way you can. You can reach it and he and he's not only he's exceeded. So I would say Lebron would be my choice for you. We're gonna work, man, We're gonna work. Well, that's man, Doc, thank you for your time. This has been a true gym for us. We appreciate you, man, guys, I've always loved you. Thank you. Uh tell the boys and said that absolutely well. Another episode in the books with Doc Rivers. You can catch us on Showtime Basketball, YouTube and The Black Effects I Heart Network. See y'all next time. This is all a Smoke, a production of The Black Effect and Our Heart Radio in partnership with show Time. On Super Bowl Sunday, CBS raises the hand of the champion while lifting the spirits of our frontline heroes. The celebration starts at to eastern with JB and the Guys getting you ready for the game. On the Super Bowl Today. They'll cover X and OS along with special performances by Miley, Sires and some of the biggest names in music, all leading up to the biggest game of the year at six eastern. February seventh celebrates Super Bowl Sunday on CBS

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All The Smoke

ALL THE SMOKE pairs two of the most outspoken and controversial players of their time. Known as fier 
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