Charles Oakley | Ep 121 | ALL THE SMOKE Full Episode | SHOWTIME Basketball

Published Feb 3, 2022, 5:01 PM

ALL THE SMOKE is back with an unforgettable and unmissable episode with NBA legend and enforcer Charles Oakley. Matt Stak talk with Oak about his 19-year career, how the game has changed, and the infamous Knicks incident with James Dolan. Plus, he shares crazy MJ/Pippen stories & discusses his relationship with them. 

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Welcome to All the Smoke, a production of The Black Effect and Our Heart Radio in partnership with Showtime m Welcome back to All the Smoke, coming to you live from l A Editions. Jack see you shining with the new merch All the Smoke Dot Store. If you want to look good, go get yourself. It's out there waiting for your baby. Man special guests today. Someone we really looked up to growing up, a really little big Homi to the real original Enforcer in the NBA book out now, The Last Enforcer. Welcome to the show, Charles Oakley Man. Yes, sir, Let's talk about the book. The title, Yeah, the books are. The titles are a lot. The books are a lot more. It's a lot of stories, just stuff from growing up. Just some stuff that people you know can really relate to, like growing up stories. Then people who watched the ball in the eighties and nineties, people who've been a fan of mine, My consistency over my career, what I stand for when I do all this in this book and a lot more. Does this book talk about the time in Chicago? Talk about Chicago? Yeah, I played with Mike for four years and some of the stuff Mike talk about in the Last Dance some some of the stuff, but not a lot of that in the book. But we had the same area with a lot of stuff, which when the lead was really bad, when a lot of guys were disappearing before games, before shooting around. But you know, I go and talk about a lot of stuff in the book too. Yeah you said, I can't remember every rebound I grabbed, but I do have a story, a true story just about every punch of slapping in your resume. You can remember all that stuff. I think, you know, I think for me and Matt, like we look at that all that stuff different, you know what I mean, because at times, you know, our passion what forces us to be that person sometimes. So we understood with the book coming out, what do you expect people to get from it? And do you expect them to see a different side of you? Um? It definitely always something they don't know about you, And it's gonna be a lot of that in the book. But I'm talking about basketball in the way that a lot of people said they wish the basketball we played today the whole guy's account ball. Um know what you're doing the court, Um, you know, game situation and I think that in the game today you watch basketball is just everybody like ah, and that's why you see so much bad talent on the floor and maybe a reason why the Lakers are struggling because it seems like to me they don't nobody know the identity but Lebron and that's the head coach. You know, that's what you fortell a guy first thing, training camp. Yeah, you do this. You do this as why as a role the time was asking guys play three minutes together efficiencies. But it's a lot of sloppy basketball now and I agree with you to coach it and if that in the Bud from the jump with this book, a lot of people don't know during the George Flown situation, you came down and supported me down to my mazingly supported me. You fed, you cooked for us every day. And you talk about a lot of this stuff in the book, what you're being there, talk about the living. Let the people know, you know that she was with me the whole experience in the time we had down there. Experience with having to George Floyd happened to me when I was in high school. I got stories in the book like I was coming home for school. Most time I had to kissed two buses. And one time I was I was catching two bus was getting dark and one bus was coming late. So I tried to walk home, you know, soether waiting in the bus stop and I was walking home. Police grabb me, slam me some about what the drugs that I had a backpack, like what the drugs? Threw me in the car, rolling around for five hours. Thenybody know I was sixteen about I knew what I was at. But when the George Floyd thing happened and the way it happened, and just it's just shocked. You know, Shot told me the people that everybody tried to come together because you know, seeing that happen, and guy got a knee on this guy, he told him I can't breathe, and you still stand on top of him. I mean, they made everybody want to be family. Bring you know, let's stop this maddness. Seeing that and this guy just act like, you know, I want to smoke a cigarette and you want to He like, I got all day to do this, So it was an embarrassing But to come to his rescue, I mean, everybody came to his rescue. But when you called me like, oh, I'm there, big brod wheel. Um, it was just sad to see that, and um, what do you do his family? You know, I got to be more of the family because you know, like family came around this when families should come together, and they came together in a good way. And being in Minnesota, being in Houston and come into the ride, you know, and just seeing everybody just we for George, We for George, And that just put some of my chest man like crazy. Speaking of that. Obviously you were there with Jack for a lot of it, But talk to me about how proud you are about Jack, because when it's all said and done, it's the biggest protests in the history of the world. Oh yeah, you know what I mean, Like it shook the entire world and and and Jack was at the forefront, but you were right behind him. Well, to see him step up with number one was a blessing. And that's that's what friends are. You know, everybody said I got the best friend, best friend. Jack was best friend I mean every everything, uncle and dad because he took the responsibility with his kids, his girlfriend and he kept the family at a hole. And when I see just I mean just seeing kept moving to press everybody with the question Jack. But Jack, they letting none of that disturbed what he was trying to do. He was trying to bring a family clothes together because they lost a close one. And I take my head off to Jack. You know, like I said, was you know I coached me in the Big Three. Uh you know we then when the chip he come back, when the ship. But this man that did so much for so many different people. Because when you bring someone together, people watching some people be negative, some positive. But he bunging in a good way. And that you know what he's doing now. The shows just still pushing the needle for is trying to bring people together. And some people do stuff they'll stopped. They do it for the press. He didn't do it for the press. Did it for the heart. That was your brother. It's real born and raised Cleveland. Talked to us about Cleveland. It was it was, it was you know it was a little rugged. Um you know still family UHAMI family six of us h But now you know my family had a decent name in Cleveland. But they're like said, it was the streets was hot then you know, drugs all time high. Everybody getting money. Um, you know, but it wasn't crazy like it is now. You know, but everybody was getting money. You know, they got along. But now that people getting money, they don't get along. The air was strong. But you know, like I said, it was family, a lot of cousins and stuff. You know, I know, his kids growing up like you. But a kid in the at ground seeing a lot of things happen, you know, crap games getting robbed. I wasn't play ground. One day, just sue and I see this guy without the crap game. I'm like, I'm looking. I'm thirteen, like six as on Friday get their checks come in, you know, post up thing and forty or something. This guy rubbed the crap game with a switch people. So I leave there, go back to my brother. Said they need nothing to do that, they forget it. But now it was just funny. It was stuff like that happened. A lot of it was a lot of guys getting stuck up. But they you know, they knew that a certain guy stick you up. Just give it to him. Yeah, they don't want to, you know, they that smoke. When did uh sports come into your life? In particular basketball? Um, I think I played football first, and I'm playing I was playing pee weeeball, so they put you I was playing defense. But you know from that growing up, I was playing football. I didn't play basketball until it really got to like junior high, but I was playing in the park. But I was playing ogan outs football, so I was better than football than basketball. And um so I got to high school, I played both and I just kept you know going. It was a good thing I did because I was you know, there's a lot of stuff going on. I mean it was just you know, drugs and people just having fun. But uh, I got to John hey On Sony Harry was a football coach and said, you know, you can play both sports. So I played both of them, and uh, I think that you know, I got the time I get to be a senior, I was still good in both. Um, you know, we win stuff in the semigone stakes and down stakes. We're having them big five stars and stuff. We think three stars. But it was fun though. I got a chance and you know, buying without other guys, and I think on four guys from my high school team made it. You know NFL. You know, oh Wall, where do you attribute your obviously your physical toughness, but your mental toughness as well. I get that for my grandfather. He was a guy that no nonsense. Is one of them guys that you know, you get at four o'clock in the on him and what he did before he went to work, you into the field, come backs, walked two miles to work. He was He did it for so many years. And you know that he was the only guy. When he got a car, he was the guy in town. So he took it out of the town, took it by the church. He goes to town three or full time Saturday morning, Sunday school for you know. So I was watching him, so I was in all his full self. I was just like, wow, this man he's everything. You know up the road about the full miles three miles. He got a wagon you go to feed the cows for the other guys who got the white fence. And so he was as everything and he was hummer and uh. He raised eight kids, and you know there was my aunts and uncles and it was he was just great, great, great great. He was great. He was in Cleveland as well. Now it's Alabama, Alabama, okay, yeah, yeah, six eight power for the Virginia Union University Small Division two named the Division two Player of the Year. Over your career culminated over twenty three points six team Hunter rebounds. What was your college experience like? It was? It was, you know, I just wanted to leave Cleveland because it was that I knew because all of my friends he was getting high, going to jail, stealing clothes. You know, it was it was, you know it boost Yeah, so I asked something, my guy, I'm gonna talk about them, you know, they know. So they were these guys they didn't like set maybe grade. They know, I think that's girls. I mean the stores when they like higbees and make company. So they are going the store, stay all night, backing up stuff. They dressed like the janitors, so when the janitor come work next morning, he think it's another guy, you know, working at y'all him. So they have the same kind of uniform on. But they had about four or five backs all the clothes in the store. So it was fun just you know, so basically when these guys get back on the street, they're selling everything for a third right, So you know, it was just it was just crazy that to see that these guys were doing that, but it was fun. Um, it was a lot of fun on up and just you know, I'm just glad, you know, I had a chance. Didn't get to know trouble trouble like a lot of my guys did. A lot of them got in trouble and the like how do you escape? I just always trying to say I was with him, but not when he was doing bad. Yeah, you know that. Then one thing happened when I got in the lead. I came home and I read a call from one of them. So they went to them all and the end up they were stilling stuff and some kind of ways. Time I got to licenselate them and they went they called in and they went to the rented places, came back to me. So they came to me, Hey, they was disrespecting me. So you know, I was like, hey, they called me, I wasn't there. They said, oh man, we had this thing. We you know, we gotta wait. No, you didn't get away. They got me. It was just a lot of stuff like that, a lot of fighting in the neighborhood. It was, it was it was kind of ruggers. When did you kind of start becoming like that enforcement mentality you grew up with, but a lot of fights as a youngster. Youngster in college. In college guy you playing football, they call him baby bull and he was always picking with me, taking my hat out, put his finger in my ear. You know. One day was going to lunch Henderson Center. That would call it school and go to Henderson and then you go lunch up stale. So one day he I just had enough. He was he was a big guy. I just picked him up and just slammed his ass. Stepped over there. Motherfucking keep working with me. See what's gonna happen? Every time I say you, I'm gonna do this ship baby, so the words about campus. Every time he saw me, he went out the way like that movie and uh the Bronx sale. Yeah, yeah, you go out the way. Bullies get bullies one Yeah. How was your predraft workouts? Jared Cross was eager to draft you. How was your pre pre cret It was the workout was easy because I think it. I was always in shape. I wasn't affiliated some guys, but for us that you know, I passed all the tests and then I played in the East West All Star Game Hawaii Classic. So my skill level I was playing against like all the Division one guy, the top ten fifteen guys. But my thing was I was fundamental sound, so I knew how to rebound, blockout, pass, you know whatever. So all my skill that was it was okay for me, helped me against them because them guys were you know, jumper jumpers at playing a lot of them all star games. Dean Smith for the coach one time. So Dean Smith told guys, we're gonna pass the ball twice and shoot, and you know, so we had one practice. You know, everybody just come together, you know, everybody and play ball. Shouldn't understand something, but they didn't. So we get in the game. Guy was passing once and shoot. So every time you passed one and he was just burn. I'm like, they didn't get it, he said, passed the whites didn't shoot. They were passing one time, the next that was shooting. So it was just fun just to see other guys on the level that overlooked with the coase eighty five. For get drafted in the first round. You technically when we went to the calves but then got traded to your rights to the bulls. How did that happen? Well, they had called I didn't go to the draft nub one because they said you probably go second or fourth round. And I found out I went top teen, number nine. So they so to Cleveland and Chicago had talked. I guess they think I was gonna make it to the leven. So they said we'll trade picks. And where were you doing the draft? I was at my coach house in Virginia. Okay, Yeah, so I stayed there and you know, they called us on the phone and you know, said it could be a swap. So I said, cool with me. I mean, you said a fourth round going top teen, I ain't got I ain't like with nobody, send me want to go right? But now it was good. Uh you know, once you get drafted called experim, you go to that city and you know, Mike was there, so you know, um, but it was fun. You know. I went in there like I was like it was still like I'm still Algar. You know, it was sweet powerfulward in front of me. So I had to work my way in the ladder. I was you know, I was able to the whist I'm still going that. I'm just showing I'm determined I'm gonna be here. So it was that. How was it transition into the winter city. I was from Cleveland, so base was just I mean, I'm used to the cold. I'm used to people went make CODs and girls wearing high issues and the street, you know. I mean it's more Chicago got more you know, games in Cleveland, but no Cleveland with him now. But I was cool. I mean, I had a big family in Chicago, so I was moving. I was moving around. Not just go on the West side, get my hair cut south side. I mean, there's a price has coming half for like thirty years just passed already, you know, the rest in peace. But it was right in the heart of the Chicago West Side. And I met a lot of guys who in the summertime, you know, they have summer leagues, playing the summerleague. Get to know the guys in the city, and you know, I'm picked up some decent friends over the time, and guys that you know in the city who you know, no nowhere to go, were not to go. But I ain't had no album, you know. Then once Mike we were on this you know, go places. And later on when Mike got the center, you know, when Tim Groban started playing ball, and then everybody saw coming to watching, you know, play in the summertime. It's just it's got to be a family thing. Who are your vets? You know you was on? I know George Gerban was there, gir came late. So basically was it was that time. And when I came to the league, that guys was you know opened like a door. It was in and out. Um, Mike was there, Uh, Dave Cuisine was there, Cynda Green Atlanta Warwris Quinn daily, we had yeah do wananam So this guy was it was old Mike a couple of years ago. So it really said we had no vet sets. And then Gerbin came when Jordan got hurt my rookie year. But he was you know ice man, you know, I mean I still hanging out, you know as you go to the house set on the points. Ice was real cool, just you know, like laid back. What was your welcome to the end be a moment like when you first get to them. Then what was the moment when you're like, damn, I'm in NBA. Yeah, I'm um, I forgot when they're draft me. But so at the moment, U was when one day that we had a game up in Milwaukee preseason game. So you know the best, you know, Rookie's gotta come early, you know. Yeah, I'm always earlier. But something something this day, I was late. So I get there and uh, I don't go in the first but I'm on the second bus with the guy you know, been there two or three years. What you're doing? Said, I missed the bus. Oh you missed the bus. Okay. So we get to the rental, right, so I go change right quick. So I'm gonna get taped, you know, because you have to get tape back there. And then I was getting taped the bed like no, no, no, you gotta get up, rook I said, okay, rook what do you mean. I thought, I'm gonna Rookie, I'm trying to get taped. No, you can't get taped. So I take all the tape and throw it in the guy. But I say, nobody ain't no getting taped. You got moving off the table, I said, moving off to the table. Oh man, they still laughing. They give me you all right? Yeah? Yeah, what was it like in though? It was it was like you know, everybody went for about the head. It wasn't like you know, shaking picking nobody up and let's go eat other one. Now. It was gonna that's one thing they did that everybody went out to one another. You couldn't hide, yeah, because they like said, miss Mack, They're going to you. You have to play. It was heavy, heavy drugs back then. I remember David Stern so think it was too black and too too many drugs. Yeah, David Stern, Yeah, it was. It was like Oakland, that was it was. It was that there because that's when it was the all time hide on it and he wasn't just in um Chicago, New York. You know, Oakland was bad. That Mary was bad. It was like a flea market. But yeah, they cleaned it up though, but you know a lot of guys, you know, like I said, some guys might making the shoot around, but they ain't making it the game. He went to see the second girlfriend. That thing out, Yeah, my girl. The second girl then asked this question about about Iceman. This is the story that I heard a lot. You ever heard a story about Iceman showing up to the game, like pulling up to the game and meet like missing warming and getting party and leaving straight from the game to his car. Did you hear that story. Uh and uh Chicago, I know, well Chicago he had thirty four a half time and then on the score maybe four second. I don't know about the forty. I mean you could have happened, because a lot of it happened back then. Yeah, real, it was. It was. It was funny to me because you know, like Mike said, a lot of stuff in the last day and they're about like, well Mike telling, ain't telling. I mean I've seen a lot of it. Two mean three or fold dealers at the hotel, like you know, you had a choice. So basically a lot of guy was doing for free because they were testing. Yeah, so it was slick on the PA half. Yeah, he kept little their money. Yea. That's initial thoughts on m J. And how did you guys build your friendship that's still lasted today? I guess, you know, like I said, when I got there and then and just when the season started, just might work having and you know, seeing that I was dedicated. I didn't take nothing for granted. Um, always on point. You know, when you're young, they're gonna test you and knowing the plays, you know, staying after work and you work in So I was always about work. So when somebody seen you work, I mean in game. Then I didn't play a lot early, but when I got in, I knew how to play. We about outlet set picks, you know. Just I wasn't looking for him to give me nothing. I was just working. But just we just got cool. Probably got more cool because we were somewhere and MJ and the guy got into it, like I mean, it was like it was real MASSI. So it was about a bill. So they got told him, you just rookie did than that when't you pick the check up, you get a check to that you're picking up, so they that is that. So it was like a lot of tensions. So they almost got in the fight, and I'm like, man, I like, you know, many'all need to cut it out this and that. Man, You're like that he could have check you've been leaving for me. So it was a lot of that, and you know, they got all of them guys out of there and took two or three years, but then he got to start running the team his way, and you see what happened. M J dropped sixty three in the playoffs. First the Celtics. What was that game like? Just talking about It was crazy because that was when I think he came back from the surgeon and they didn't want him to play. They wanted restricting, and Jason, I'm a ballplayer, I'm playing and I'm on the cool. I want to play my thirty seven minutes. So that's when Gerban didn't play that much. But it was just amazing. He was just he was fresh. I mean, you know he he ain't played with twenty games, but I didn't played the eighty two, so nobody that's crazy. And George Gerban was on the bench when the NJ sixth. Nobody didn't. I didn't know that he was bench, but he was in another world. You know. We lost, but he was. He put a show on he flopping and stuffing. Uh tonight, I think I witness Jesus on the basketball. Yeah, it was tough plan because Boston they got every cold. Man, it's amazing. And the floor it's bad. Rephrase that me to cut you out. God in the basketball uniform. Yeah, basketball shoes guard the basketball in Boston. On the court, so DJ so he not a guyt you to the dead spot every time you got you and get to steal and go down court. Got about three then you had the old floor and DJ knew how to turn the guard and the next thing you know, because he turned it and tried to ball and come up. But that's the old parquet floe. When you're playing Boston in the one time they got the wind's open, you know, already cold, it's already about thirty degrees. They make like zero degree. It's like it was like they did everything they could. You know, they have advantage. And then so you already got advantage. You got Bird Cavic, Kelle or Pears and DJ like what and you got rid of all back looking down. So it was crazy, but it was you know, the fans back then like they're not um. They was like, you know, they saw good basketball. I mean they can, you know they can. Like I don't know what the fans when they go to the game now when they think about basketball as you know, just I don't think they go to watch the games. I think they go just to see who had the game and take pictures. They walked past, you know, the bench and taking picture with the playoffs now you know what I'm saying, because it's just you know, the teams that you don't see that consistency and what they do on the night. You know, one night they looked about thirty win about twin you know, it's crazy. You know, you can say the games came a long way because back then they used to open the one that's in the RNA's to keep the floor from sweating because of the ice. You know what I'm saying. Now they ain't got but you don't know if you know, back then that used to used to walking to Jim and freezing in there and just slippy all over the place. You've always been cold. I mean it's cold outside and they got ice on the bottom like hockey. I mean, it's just crazy. Some of these arena but then most of them, you know, got new ones now so the day. But how did the nickname oak Tree come about? It? What did it mean? I guess some of my playoffs just you know, it took off, you know oak Tree. You know, so it just you know, maybe a half of names the oak Tree and you know there's the oak and they couldn't back you down. Know when shot came back to me, then yeah, yeah, they come back down. But no, it was just you know, I just like playing a good shock. You know, he's a big guy. But when you're a big guy like that, one thing, you don't want to get too close to him. You always want to keep your balance because you know, shot want to feel your spin. I see him do that move so many times, just spinning dunk on everybody. I told him, you'll never don't go I'm gonnahitching the head. That kind of leads into my next situation. Uh, you know this is something I did that my career when I, you know, play with stars. I mean, you know you you fun with the star. You funk with me, and that was kind of your thing with m J. How did you know? How was that on a nightly basis? Because he used to take a beating? Yeah he didn't take a beating when I was really yeah, you was going, yeah, yeah, it's an yeah, yeah, put them in the bag. I'll fight all of them. Yeah, but but you got to reiterate that that was the truck. Start doing that after they know what it was. But then m J we just bonding and just like we started going everywhere together on the road trip, he'd arrived with me the most time I arrived with him. Uh. They stay right in the corner for me. For my first two or three years, Um go with how to play ping pong poo spades. Uh, you know, we just you know, we needed a lot out on sometime at nighttime. Him a bitchar didn't go raising them down Willow. They alway we hung with the Bears guys and they want a Super Bowl five. But besides that, we just we just have fun. You know, I wasn't cooking like I was, but my cooking started picking up, you know. So, but we ate a lot of McDonald's back then, m J A McDonald's for every morning, for breakfast every morning, McDonald's like sin if it works right. And before game he eats steak before every game, A steak steak before every game. Damn. That's happy boss. Your second year, Uh lead the team in rebounding and second and scoring. Um as you continue to build your your game and your chemistry. Um. Later Doug Collins comes along as coach. How was that situation? Well, Doug the one traded me. Uh, Doug. Doug is a different kind of coach. You know. He liked the wine, you know, um, he he just he was just different. I guess one time, Okay, we had a game. It's on Christmas Day, Brad sellers. So we had a meeting like, okay, we're in New York. So after game, everybody go their own way, so you know we're going over time and lose. Get back into the locker room. Dog said, everybody on the butt. Everybody back on the bus going back to Chicago. I'm liked, you just told everybody going there ONNG. Wait now we're on the bus going back to Chicago. So everybody get on the bus, go by to Chicago. We get the day off the next the next practice, no, I call it team me, like, you're sucking wrong. You shouldn't have told nobody you can go their separate ways, you know, man up. And that's when the team started going with split up a little bit. Um m. Jaden said nothing, but I'm like, hey, you shouldn't have said it. You're wrong. So I get traded the next year is but I always always do it for my teammate, no matter what I mean, trade me and whatever I mean. I'm not that bad. Somebody gonna pick me up and even to rount up whatever I mean. You do something wrong, if the teammate wrong, I can't help you. When you're right, I got you one thousand, you know, two thousand because because don't make a statement that you can't little too, that's bad for the team eight or seven A y'all get hards, Grand Scott. It I used feeling like how the new addition to the team was. I liked the horse, Grand Scott. We started calling them Salt and pepper. Had to have being black one had a white one. So they did everything together with the bath room together. So we so we got them. So it be against me and Mike Brown against all the guards and two guards. So Mike Brown with George Washington and he played with the Bulls maybe two or three years. He was sixteen, about two eight, them six nine, about two six or so, we should go to the hotel room, have team m J get this week. We uhoul to go tell I mean we tell we probably to about a least thirty the hotel rooms because all the little guys fighting us so like just fighting in the room around just like we'll sign up basketball leaving and we're going to the next city, m J. So we started getting them in the hotel, like I said, one to go out and we see him you know walking well, duck down, beat him up. You know, we just beat him up. It was. We just had a lot of fun like that. But there was Howards and Scott was good guys. Like said, they built from there. I mean them two pieces was you know, part the whole Brandon for winning them six champion you know three and three special horse guy three and Scotty got six. But I'm saying Horse was a guy who can play the four and five and you know mid Rain, good athlete from Clipston. Then and then Scott, you know, like I saying, he's a you know, like a Lebron type of playoffs but don't have much of the office of Lebron, but he can do a lot. You know, we can play full position, get about in bold, you know. You know, so when you got a guy like that, then they had Ron Harper came along. Guy can play wanted to you know, that was the thing. They had a lot of length on other playoffs. They had seting put us behind him. Um. But you know it was when I got traded. You know, they kept building. But it was fun and playing with them guys. I had a lot of fun. I got a funny story around quick about old We're playing in Charlotte, Oka's assistant coach at Charlotte, right, and uh, we had just lost. So you know, I'm I come, I'm cutting like olden him, something from the old school. I already know after you lose, I ain't no laughing on the bus. You know. We was like that and Golden State we got on the rick, so I had already already my side. I played with Steve Smith and Kevin with us and Dave Robinson, so I was taught that as a youngster, I don't given what you got going on. We lose, ain't no laughing and giggling on the bus, right, So I got DJ Augustine and D and D Brown on my team, and they're young, they're rookies, right, So they in the back we just got blasted by somebody, and uh, they in the back of the bus cracking jokes. I got my head phones over, so okay, laugh like, and we aren't gonna be doing all that goddamn laughing after we just lose. Y'all focused on this game, right, you just tell you going off everybody? So he just turned around and Jack, you know better. I'll take up here and say, oh, I don't even I'm not even laughing, but I ain't got my handpos off. Well, you know better. You know I didn't at the bus I laughing bus. I knew he was mad at doing I was saying that I knew a time I would. But before we even got him the bus to Djags was one of those little mothers always laughing dog. So he and when it happened, nobody blame him. Nobody. It's always somebody else docs. It was just it was just a funny situation. It was better. You should know better before we get to the um the Knicks part of your career, although you were there at the beginning of my thoughts on the last dance and and and what you saw and what you learned because obviously not the whole time there, but you played during that UM. I mean the last dance was something for people at home, because you know, pandemic they can see different sizes of different people. But I ain't. I mean a lot of it was like I don't know how true something of it was, but I think that a lot of people, you know, like like Gary Payton, you know, he probably woudn't happen with Mike. With Mike said about he said a lot about a lot of people. Staia. I was talking about itself. I don't know why I like Isaiah. I don't know what's up with Iailla. Just too sneaky. You know, he always think he ain't I ain't do it, but he did it. You know, like we got we got you on camera. You did that camera camera. You see what Mike, Mike do not want to be your friend. I I'm telling you for the still time, he did not want to be your friends. You know, stay on ESPN, keep talking on t N T Mike said, you know now you're trying to say everybody better than Mike. It's okay, You're not better than Mike. He can't your city and took your city. That's why you really, man, he took over Chicago. I know, Uh yeah, I love it. Uh. One thing I wanted to ask, obviously, Pimp dropped the book recently and there was a lot of m slander and that. What was your thoughts? Well, I mean, like I said, a lot of last dance, it was car over. So you know, Scotty got his book. I got my book. I don't know the anybody thought me under bridge over the bridge, So I was just myself. I think Scottie probably feel like he was more to Mike than these guys. He should have got more action than Dennis, rob and Steve Kurry. I think Dennis got too much play and Kurt I mean, I mean Scotty did a lot. I mean Curry might have hit two shots in eight years. Dennis, I mean he did his thing be bound, but he was an asshole. Yeah, you Dennist, you know what it is. I'm ingforced use the claim found but but no, just now, I just try to keep it real, Dinnist, know what it is. I kind of felt like as time passes and you know, people kind of give Scott to his props. I just I just think he's kind of going too far with it now, like to to and everybody have their opinion. Bro, you know what I'm saying, But from for one minute, you're saying nothing that nobody is better than Joy and he's the best. To the point, I guess when after like you said, after this last dance came out, now you're having second thoughts of saying all this stuff, Like I'm kind of feeling like that ain't genuine. I feel like he's going through something he's mad at Mike about. Yeah. I think myself, I think it's something off the court, right, because Scotti he said whatever he said, he got a little bit. I mean, when they're about to call this guy to go and you ain't in the top scoring, it's hard. You just said you're betting someone, but you got opinion. You know. I know, Scott I told to Scotty, Um, you know, I you know, I just talked to Mike after every last you know, last day. They shouldn't have did interview. But Scott, he came out with his book. He said a lot this and that, trying to compare yourself with Mike. I mean, like I said that I called Mike and uh in my book called Mike and Lebron for as the flaking corn flakes. So so Scottie to Mike, Scotty ain't better than Lebron, No, not even So. My thing is Scotta got a lot of you know, potentially type of skill that with Brown. But I don't think it Scott Avage but maybe one time his career, right, So I mean, you know Scott, you know his wife, you know, his son passed. I mean, he was going through a lot, so he could have you know, I don't know, I'm trying to you know, I like Scottie, but it's Mike's hard to sell you back in the goat. Yeah, it's hard to set it, but you know we don't have a be on the scott Get dealt to the Knicks, which was a very popular decision for Bill Cartwright. How did you find out and and how tough was that for you? Kind of learning the business? Well, I mean the business business. I always been like, hey, you ain'ty control, don't worry. When you control, you know you can worry. I mean my thing is when I got traded. It was me and Mike Richard Dent at the Tyson and Spinks fights Atlanta City. So we was walking to the fight. We're walking to the fight and some guy hit Richard Dent like the pickpockets so the pickpocketing, but I called him. He threw it down and Richel like, I said, that rich your wallet and the guy he duck off. So basically he could have had it anyway. So we're going to the fight. So somebody, somebody called Mike and we really wanted to fight the fight you haven't started yet, said, oh, ship, they traded you. I said what, yeah, yeah, they said they traded you. I said what then I'm thought of thinking like this. And then I said, did you do something about it? I'm quitting him, like you're the man of the team. I always said you was a man of team. So you gotta know something. Don't play dumb now. He said, yeah, they said something about it, but I ain't know all the details. I said, okay, just answer my question. They did tell you, but I mean my thing is I didn't. I didn't cry about it. I still had a job. I'm going to New York. I'm gonna play with Pat you on. I'm going to the Apple. I mean, I mean they ain't. They ain't trade me to Cyca Milla nowhere. I was still going up here. So getting in New York Apple was Apple. You know that. So many people the year. It's just something, man, all the rappers, all the celebrities. I mean, you've really got in the mixed. Man. It was like having up there. Man. I don't know, I know the eight is not everybody in New York, and there's always something going on. Man. But we didn't hang out a lot on game days. I only win you off. We had a rude night of a game. You cannot go out night before. Now, guys, go all night before the day before, during the game party before the games, I'm like, whoa, what was this that was being disrespected to the team? I find especially the other teams go out, I try to kill them. Yeah, you go in my city, then you think you got a easy win. Okay, You're like, they was disrespecting me by going out the night before they played, y'all. Yeah. Yeah, anything he did night before a game, you trying to have a shoe sign all the go outside that this is what might have pissed him off. How you feeling about m J smoking cigars? He smoking cigars for the game. You weren't smoking cigars back then? Yeah, he started smoking to me, so I winning. He changed with the winds. So I don't know bus and all that now that's the Phil Jackson or he wasn't doing that back then. Yeah, your first year in New York, you guys running too the Bulls playoffs? What was that? Like? We ran into him a lot. It was just one of them things. It was just like MJ always said, you were going the wrong time. But it was always telling him. I always tell him, that's what it said. You always said, he's always working around. So I just tell him I'm glad, I said, you're glad, David turning your next next to a neighbor, Right, that's what you get all the calls. Yeah, but you guys had a hell of a team man, Patrick uh Starks, Mason, Larry Johnson, Doc Rivers. What was it like just kind of finding your footing with that team? It was really talented team going to the nineties. Basically, you know we had part uh Jeff let me with the Jeff might have been Jeff Paralley, not Jeff Paralley then Jeff. So with Lad Johnson, we had Jeff Um. I mean we went to the finals in Houston, but we um we just balled and bounds all right. Against Houston. We was up three too, went seven last minute the game. We we couldn't get the league. I think Sam Cansell had the Big three and but you know, playing the gap was great. And you know we didn't hang a lot in New York on somebody would hung out with me and Mason, I mean and to Buttom. I don't think Patrick went ain't going nowhere. Um Anthon I think that. But we uh we we we were trying to play. We played. That's it's like a band. You know, everybody got to the show overbody going the only way. And I think that hurt is as a team because we wentn't close enough in New York, you know, and I think that, um, that hurt us a little. But we tried to you know, like some guys, but you know, but a lot of guys. It's just it's just like we weren't closer. We should have been more closer and sometimes that work out better, but it didn't. It just didn't work out. But were we fall to the end. That's like I give you that. How was pat Rod lets the coast and what advice was given? Like he said, like you said, Peg get ready, gets ready to fight for every game like a fighter. Uh yeah. He was you know, control freak, uh real dominantly like his way to the Highway. Great preparation, um, but long long term for like late No, we didn't just good in some game situations. I think that that hurt is, especially against Houston and King and it's skilled pastor and you know, we just he was a monster. He was what he was defensive m v P and the m v P. Yeah yeah, but pat Rowley, you know he's uh, I mean he knows what you know how to get you there. He can you don't get you there, and you know, make sure your body fast as right, make sure you know your ways right, and he can make sure you you can. You know, like fourth quarter, you got enough energy, made defriend of the game and but you know we just we just gonna make the bucket when we needed. Um, that was a good series. But you know he was you know, he worked as hard. We can lose by twenty we know we're gonna have to go do some suicide. So we'll we'll play back. We have to back to back and we lose. We have to work out. Sometimes most back in the day, they at the back to back to get the day off. It's how you play in your back to back, you know what I'm saying. So if you play bad, you practice. If you play you know, keep it glaiming five or six points. Okay, I understand. But you know so he was one of them guys. So he try to keep your mentally tough about the game. And um, you know then at a lot of nonsense around. So I can respect that when he I mean, he's known for were like you said, the running and his preparation that he like, was it that like, was Patrick running with y'all like everyone had to run? Or was it well to begin a training camp? You know, Patrick had bad knees, so late in season he didn't do that much running. Um, I mean he didn't. Um. He made us do what it's you know, like sometimes you just leave practice an't like some people go do somethingles. No, you had to go relax and stuff. But I think he meant to do that because then want you out of about a lot. Yeah, So but he was he was. He was totally different and he was a different coach and all the coaches I had, so I guess you know he had. But when he first came to New York, he sit down and talked to me about he wanted to cut my minutes. And I said, okay, well, you know you got the pedestory. You know you won championship in l A, so I'm gonna listen to you. I want to win a rank, so I want to see what you're talking about. So the first year he cut my minutes from thirty four down to twenty six twenty seven. We didn't do that good. Then the next year he I said, I went to talk to you two years, I said, Pat, I needed to get my regular I think I bring more to the team. I know you got all your adelated this and that, but I think my force. You're gonna look at the Force like you should. So my force do more on the court. So the next year I saw it back in my regular minutes. I make the All Star team, we go to the finals, so point proof. He didn't want to, but I was like, I tried your way, try my way, man up right, So how good? I think somebody gets lost in the shof on the history of Basketball's Patrick Ewing? How good was a big fellow down there for you? Was good? But Patrick wasn't that Georgetown patrion. To me, he didn't. He didn't bring that when he left Georgetown. I think he left his tough and stiff. You got to be a more for this, and I think that hurts as a team because we want it. Ain't about getting thirty points, about dog calling that mill of down when they're coming up with their heads down the floor. I did I didn't, you know, So my thing, one guy, I can do it. Now, we're trying to win as a team. If you're trying to do it that's what he didn't do. But I mean he got a twenty and ten Dream Team, Hall of Hall of Fame all that, but we didn't get the rain, right, you know, call my on Barkley James hard of Westbrook. I mean, you know, so, I mean you get all the shots and you get the money and the glory, but the team don't win nothing other than the Bulls. What other teams you know, was tough on a nightly basis. I was, I was going to against the Paces and Reggy milling Um as well. I going to play the Paces against Dale and an Tonio Davis, Reggie Rick Smith, and yeah, I love it. You know, it was more affiliate than me. I just I just like to play against guys. My slides they want to bang, you know. But we had we had some wars. That was the That was more war with them with Chicago, yeah, because you know Chicago was just trying to run you in for ness. And but you know, Indiana played more half court the same way we played, so it was more mana mana. But I mean we REGI killed that one game in school like nine points in like eight seconds. Yeah. Then that another year Patrick Mr finger Roll And but you know, there was two teams just batting to beat the Bulls. Were all in the same situation. I think they went to the finally one we did. We had we all had to go through the Bulls. They had to go through us. We had to go through them, and then the Bulls. The bull was like, okay, they're just staying in the finish. Who next? You know? So it was it was fun to playing against them. You was on the team when Alonzo, I mean when Alonso on. Yeah, they weren't doing nothing. They hate nobody connected, nobody connected. No, they threw something. They threw a lot of They threw a lot of Yeah. It was funny though. So we we briefly touched on this. Ninety four you guys make the finals. That's actually the year MJ wouldn't play baseball. You guys beat the Bulls in seven tough battle against uh against Indiana in the Eastern Conference finals. You guys run into Houston and like you said, you just couldn't get the job done. No, we just I mean, you know, the first two games in Houston we split. Come to New York, we went two out of the three. Um, that's when the old J thing was going on, and I think that was happening. Yeah, the juice that was game five. I think yeah, game five because I remember they stopped. But the Houston, I mean, you know they just kim just we could we could. I mean, he was just he was a problem. That What was you thinking when you saw the juice on the runt? Oh man, it's crazy, he's innocent. I was like, that was crazy. But then the break in during a game that was like Hamiship during the finals. The juice is on the run. Yeah, but King King killed us. But Sam Cansell hit some big shots. He played big big shots, and every time we tried to switch over this and that, the other guy do something, it was just you know, that was our chance and we never got back. That's it's so hard to get back, you know. I think you know, especially when you left one out there, you'd be like, oh, we gotta get back. And then on the way back, it got to be perfect, you know, basically got to add a piece. I know what you did wrong? You know. Health, Yes, a lot of luck goes into it. And you hear about teams going back to back like ken'son and got a chance of going three three years in football, you know, as they struggle to beginning this season, now they're back on track. It's just like man, got on line. It was fun though, you know, like being I think we had games six in Houston. You know, they had the T shirts and stuff made up already, right, so I'm in the hotel. They didn't see me. I've seen it. I've seen them like roll and stuff out, you know, to like because they had it ready just in case we won. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. But it's just amazing that you see that and like wow, and I was way to the bus. I'm like, man, but you know, just now we got chance to put it on. They probably they probably burnt it up. And y'all, y'all win a game six, mostiple you hunt to win game seven, but it was closed, went down to the last like seven minute. But Sam, we'll still hit that three pointers on the big shot. Yeah. When you take a look back, now, what was you what what comes to mind when you think about your time in New York? Just how the fans treated me. They speed treated me with so much love and me, I mean the people were just the restaurants and I got a chance and you know to meet so many different people in different places and connections like crazy. Uh, I mean I had to do it do the same way. Did you get big and fashion when he was in New York? That's when you started getting big and fashion like I was. I was, no, we just get out of clothes made by this lady in Chicago named Barbara Bates Man shot with care from North Carolina. Yeah. Can you know he made Johnny Newman closed? Yeah? Johnny, Now that's right. So basically, you know, Rochester was out a little, so I was mixing the a little that so I stopped going to Rock Schulu. You so I've seen everybody in the league with the same you know, type of jacket. Yeah. Then Barbara started making guys the same time, so I was like, okay, let me find me another tator. So I got New York. I got missed the dead. E've been making myself like thirty five years. Yeah. Yeah, so but I still I didn't get something Barb. But she's cool. She started with all the you know NFL guys before we got there. Then Mike used to get all the lone jackets and two pieces, Nick Annas and Kenna get all them guys. But yeah, she once first started. I just always wonder who, like, who was the first to start wearing fresh suits and getting clean and come to the games. You know what I'm saying, We all did that though everybody. We believe you gotta well, you know suit. I mean, we're going to work, so we gotta wear a suit. But yeah, I always want to suit the game. You know that. I probably had it every year three for one of those suits. So I was honestly always just hats. You know, you could call me to Mac back there ninety eight it was traded to Toronto for Marcus Camping. You provided a veteran presence for the young guys in Toronto VC and t Mac. How was that being with those two young stars? It was great? Uh you know Vince with the rookie trade team Mac with the one year before um, it was a lot of vesting. I think that a muggs of game Dale, Captain Willers, you know, just a tourny old. Basically it was distracted Keon Clark, Keian Clarde, these come ways come over the Crown boy and he could have been good man. Yeah he's dunking everything, don't everything blocked everything. But now with getting trace and Vincent. It was just like Wow, these two young guys and both of them us so talented one two punts, you know, like the Rosa and Zack Bean. But Tracy, you know it left the next year and the Evince it was, you know, he stepped up. We had teammates and like, hey, this is your team, we got your back veteran's you know, take minut shore as you won't just be ready to play every fucking night. I told him just like that, and you know he showed up. Obviously getting a chance to play with MJ. But Vince from a standpoint of coming into the league and just the amount of highlights he provided with you ever and like, ah, like you've been with the Groat. Yeah, but Vince, I think that's something different. Yeah, I think Vince highlight might be better than Mike. I'm sorry, Mike. When Vince with the Elevator, it was a twelve. He made the thirteen fools. He's the best end game dunker. We've got him and uh yeah Dominique for his tip dunk Human Highlight film. Yeah, but Vince, I know it was crazy when he got longs on he opened the door, then let me close it on everybody. It was. That was the day he put the show on. He had a good he had a ten year run, Vince and the Dunk Contest and up in Canada, you know, he left Canada kind of events. Then then uh Kawitlina come win the championship. Man change everything. I went to four of them games, I mean three of them games. It was like whoa, they was off the change of this id and the crew. He got his own little spot in the reader like mere jumping. They're done it big oh one oh two. You come back to the Bulls. So how was it coming back and how was it playing with Jamal Carford? I ran, I tested all of them come back to Bulls from yeah, young Bucks, Tim Floyda coach man. He was terrible to the state in college, oh man college, I don't know it's even but high school, Uh it was bad. But coming back to the bull with them young guys and you know Eddie Tyson then get drafted and U Jamal was you know Jamal head all the and one stuff. It was fun, but management and ready for the moment. They blame me young guys for everything went wrong, and I told him that wasn't Then how you do business. You didn't bring me back here to be Uh. I'm not a yes man. That's what they thought. I told Jerry and no, no, he find me like, no, you know, I'm not that type of guy. I got you back, but I'm not gonna let y'all just dog these young guys. You have too high school guys and they don't know what to do, and you're not trying to make them better and you're getting your coach can't make them better because he don't know what the hell he's doing. So it was it was a little bumping for a minute and got into a tin floor. And another story was you know Margot fighter, you know him right, So he tried to six like Barkley six flat six jump out of the gym. So one day we have been practice, so it was like mass with Edd and Tyson. I'm like, man, lead them young guys, Like you're young, You've just been in the league a year before them, So how are you gonna just try to tell him what to do. If I'm not telling, you shouldn't do any telling. So he started trying to next day in practice, trying to you know, just doing this exce stuff. I'm like man, I told you the other day. Now you do it again in I'm gonna come to see you, you know. So he did something again, so I had to come and see him. I said, I what did I tell you? I getting like a three piece right? Yea, as I told you, he said, Man, he spanta to be a leader. I said, that's not leagal leader. I warned you twice the other time. It's me example. So and then they brought me and they find me like it's all good man, but that's Tyson and head they back. Yeah. Now we talked about it before. Eddie said, because he was on the Warrior's team and he always spoke about having y'all us. Event was was big for him and him and Tyson. And he said if the organization would have had more patience with them, they would have did. But he said they had no patience. Will two thousand until you signed with the Wizards as a free agent. You're reunited with Mike. How was that being back on both o gees. Now on your way out, we had the ball seemed like we part of game. We are they we didn't. We didn't. We stayed with the rules and we didn't go out night for a game. But we just you know, he stayed. We stayed right on twenty second m in Washston. He's on the north side, on the south side, and so we had you know, Micaul's Mike. You know, I'm just still coming in practicing hard. You know, him in Stackhouse got a little into it a couple of times. But you know, for man, you know, beforety years old, both of us were still practiced and showing that hey, we're not here just for the ride. We here to you know, make the team go win and be leaders. But we had fun, you know, I said, but I did every game together, and you know, we just you know, the people in the city they just loved because we were the Batman and they played so many years. They were just lad, you know, we was on the team. But a lot of respecting d c U. When I went to school, like I was happening, So I knew a lot of people in the city. We just have fun. You were known for someone obviously with the book called The Last Enforce. You were known for wanting to smoke with people. So I'm gonna give you a list of names and just tell me what you remember about these people on the battles you have when of the first time Charles Barkley, Charles Barkling great players on the size, but on the court. I mean, no, he didn't talk like he talked. Now. I guess he got another set of license since he's got at the NBA. He's all right, guy. I don't I want to talk too much good about him, but yeah, he's in my book. Yeah, and nothing good about him in the book. Question because I heard, I don't know if it was true a room. I heard there was a player meeting one time players in the league and you slapped Charles. Yeah, he said somebody we elaborate on that. Yeah, he Atlanta City is a game. I didn't play him, but as that so something that happen an interview, And I said, next time this guy said anybody name again, Chuck, Charles, Charlie. If he said any of them names again, I'm smacking my saying. So he said Charlie. And so I ain't see him to the lockout their head downtown with all the players there, anybody and then let's get this ship together. Man, and they you know, they keep trying to take all the money. So I said, I'm walking in. I called Mace, Dard Coleman, Chris Meal. I said, I'm clearly They called me, like you come, I see I'm coming, So I come in. I'm looking around. I see I go straight to him. I like what you say. Just when they have a seat, I'm waiting for the meeting, like it went deep in the big deal. Like you when you go arout, some get some water. So everybody like, what do you do? Nothing? That's not the ball bounce. That's sometimes Larry Bird. Oh man, he's one of the best. You know, go through the ring and then shooting at for thirty five o'clock, go to shoot around and shooting the nine o'clock. Just work on his craft. I mean, I know we beat him in a series. He was, you know, just three out of five back in the days. But he tried to dunk and miss, but we beat him. And I mean he was. He's a legend that team that he played with. I mean, just he knew how to play all angles with the cord and everything. Rick Mahorn just a big guy. He went to his story of Black College like me and uh, I know, Rick, I tell him he ain't tell with Jeff Rule and they watched him x man x man, undersized power for play, small talk shit, top ten pick on ve you. Um he was. He was a little falced, but you know he's able to could do what his size. Alonzo morning, Alonzo Georgetown guy like the flex ain't gonna fight um, just like it's on the mother Georgetown guys. Uh, he's a cool guy. You know he think he's too cool sometimes, but he ain't mad at beat yourself. Yeah, probably pronounced his last name of palm Moski. Oh yeah, I got into him, touched him up. I had to touch him up. Did you get him warning first? No, he broke my nose. I ain't one. I had to give it to him. Oh he hit you with albo man hit me, he went the face. I hit him in two pieces. What's the id that too? One time he was in the game and Houston on the thought. So he hit me the first time. I ain't do that. That's a strong one. So the second time he elbowed me. He said he tried to catch his elbow. I had to touch him up. He's strong. He was strong. I don't care. I was strong with it. No. It was fun though, man, I liked that stuff, but that's what it is part of it. Part of it. Fast forward February Madison Square Garden. He removed the rest of during the next Clipper game. UM, a lot of way after that, a lot of ship went back. Ford tell us about that situation. Wow, it was crazy. I went there the night before for a third my months the baseball player I have a Foundation Award dinner. So I was going to like regular and UM, I was there and this guy said, you wanna go to the game the next night? I said, yeah, I go. Next thing I know, he comes eight guys walking up and you gotta go, said I gotta go. I just got here, you gotta go. I said, what you said? What your ticket? I said, how do you think I get down here? So basically that he's setting them guys over there and you know, aggravate me. And one thing led to another one. They started grab it on me and said get your hands off of me, don't touch me, and they took me in the back, cuff me and put the cuffs on me. And you know, it took me to cross the street to the presed and got in there. They called me a piece of them. We just sit back. And so it got to the point where you actually went to the precinct. Yeah, I went there and some so some guy to watching game. So everybody was trying to get me out. So my guys from Long Island came. You know, it's a big has fine guy and wants a cop too, so he came and got me out. They let me go about twelve thirty one o'clock the night. They did a couple of interviews, but O, man, just you see how howld him Like I'm howling people of the game and just unbelieving. It's just amazing what happened. And you know today the commission never find him or suspend him or nothing. And he was there and all of this snational televits game and all this go down. Somebody that calls this to happen. Eight guys to wealk up to me for nothing. I can't even I thought robbed the bank or something that they'd see me some all duty cops. It's one regular cop there. But it was just some bullshit, man, some bullshit, and that's like really hurt the family and everybody who knew who I know, somebody messed with. You gotta protect yourself. That's how I was doing, protecting myself when did you know I was trying to hang it up? Two thousand three? Yeall want the championship? You was with the Rockets. That was your last year hanging up. I mean when you my type of role, I mean, you can play as long as you wont is just if the team won't you if I ain't had to school points, just you know a body, you know, a veteran, you know. I mean basically, just Manique, tell me, because I wouldn't like I got to school points to be successful in the game, rebound defense. I had to do so, I mean I still could have probably played another year. I mean I was flexible. I can see give me on the court. I wasn't banging up or nothing. Eighteen years, eighteen and a half. You gonna count that last year in Houston. What are you most proud of? And career? We're more proud of, um All Star. I'm I'm probably more proud of playing this long All Star. Getting to the finals and meeting a lot of people in my career battered my life. That you know, people you can do. There's a lot of people can call on and deal with if you need something that's that's good to you know, had the type of connection, you know, to play a long time like that, just just being hummering and just realized that it was a job at all time I didn't take up for granted, I'm proud to say that I got a chance to get some assist from you. We played together in the Big Three, so you're still in a great enough shape to play. You played in the Big Three for US season. Yeah, it's messing around, but anyone's had to up give you a chicken in the biscuit too. Yeah, we we our passion for the game clashed. I want to hear about it. I was watching on TV. I'm like, damn, Jack, I got your back, but don't go out it with oh god, damn not. OK, tell us about that day, Jack. What had happened was I was arguing with the referees and one thing and this is this is I'm gonna say this. This is what he was right about. Though. When I don't argue with the referees, I was unstoppable. So anytime I don't get a file, as you know, I'm arguing with the motherfucker's you can't miss a call while I'm on the court. Sorry, So I come out to go oh take me out. You know, I don't like coming out the game especial three. But he but what he was the whole time? We in Texas, So I'm trying to show up in front of my family. He telling me to calm down, and I'm like, he followed me. Oh, he fired. He followed me to the point where you ain't going back in the game. You talked to the reps. I'm gonna check myself in. No you ain't. Yes I am, I say, I said, oh you forgot where you at? This? What this was? Killed the whole I said, Oh, we text you what God where you at? You saud like American allies, um, everyone. And we ended up winning the game. So for all the people want to talk about the argument, it worked because we end up winning the game. And you'll have to drink at the bar later. We were what happened, me and him going to the bar eat after every game. That's just what it was, all right, man, coming down the home stretch quick hitters. First thing to come to mind. Let us know, if someone to make a biopick of your life, what actor would play you? Good question, that's a good question. I can let Myron, maybe Leon he can play anybody. You can play anybody. He'll fan of the show to. Actually, it's funny you said. They's something DM recently tell him he looked like me, so I just because he can do it. Top NBA defenders of all time Dennis, Robin, Scotty, Uh, Matamo um me bo, that's fine, that's fine. First one, who was the first one? Adam Robinson, Robinson Okay Scotty and Matamo okay Aba robson Um share a quick story with any of these people. I'm about to list, Tupac, jay Z, Ice Cuba, Mike Tyson. Wow, I know all of them. I wouldn't see Tyson and Jails and Tupac we tossed it up. Jay Z we ain't him been and running, I mean good and bad. But he used to go um no, I just says the name he's his name is like wow. They was great and know you know two party saying he's the best rap all time. Tyson had an air and nobody never had before. You know, size Ali most his fight last and on the last five rounds. And jay Z just Sloanjevid and changed the game for us. What do you do off? Not on the MC but what are you doing for helping people? Trying to be fund itself bench businessman ever? And he just he just just he used it from the streets and to get the Hollywood Hollywood, and I ain't looked back. That gave him a lot of credit for that. You said you visited, uh Tupac in jail, No, Tyson Tyson and jail. Yeah, okay, so Tyson, you know, Don King was from o how so he had a farm downe there in Tyson moved up about I guess, say, I'm eight years and I just see him around on the corner shooting dikes and the bars at the party, you know, Tyson, that's what he did. And so we went in. I was going to play Indiana and was in the playoffs. I got in earlier. I called and checked out everything, and so I took a little bill. You just just went in there and they let mean, you know, coming there were sitting talk. We had a long, long talk. They let us state in like X hour comes. I guess because of me, you know, but it was it was, you know, it was sad, you know, to see him locked up like that. Um, we don't know all the you know, Cartier to what happened. But you know, but when they call, you know, they put they closed that door and mean he did something wrong. You know, But I see him all the time to this day, you know, on the wet signing and just being out about you know him, his life now as a whole different brand. You know, re invented that something evented itself and in a good way. You plus four going to the black Top? What other players are you bringing? Plus fours? No are you talking about? Oh so this is basically like when they shot the space jam when MJ had the bubble. So basically it was like the team we had when no like you know, want no score, but guys who get up and play defense. We won because we had a good defensive. Things we made the buckets, We got a good defense, and that we stopping the other team. So we you know, we had a chance to win. But who I'm gonna take on the court with me? And I'm definite gonna take black Um and we got to play on the black top myself, Lebron, I'm gonna take Shock. I need some deezing, I need another shooter. Probably take Kobe m hm m They say black Kovid Lebron Shock yeah and me. Yeah, I know what kind of music did you to listen to before the games? Um? I went to music. I like that. I liked all of it. I ain't had no sunch of type, but I love like Luther OJ's Temp Teddy all. That's um kind of some relaxing ship before you play. Well know what I'm saying. No, I listened to up Temp. I mean I can music don't make me go up but down. You know, some people need to get high, you know. I just I just like it, what's up and playing? But you know bone Thugs from Cleveland, you know, my boys get him a shout out. But I didn't have no really really In the New York it was so much news back then. You know, Chuck d running mc l You know you got higg wasn't it Biggie. You got um a little bit after that huh Wu Tang, a little bit after that little Wood Tang, and then you got um rock Cam and being rock camp. So I got storry about that. I was in Chicago, you know, my second year. I was going to say, I think it's ninety seven. Painting food came out right, So I'm in. I'm got beat him. You know, I got the go from the seats. I got a BM going in the middle of you know, so I'm riding down find the going to back. So a light it's only yellow, but you know it ain't turn in, so I'm going to turn Stop the fucking car. Stop the car, Like, what's going on with I'm just going to stop the fucking car. Man, you don't have to go all like that. And he just kept coxing me on. I got I'm not gonna take but so much really so then another coup. Oh man, that's oh he just went the bull. You know, just should just be happy. I like, man, you know, just almost blew up. It could have been another kid. Almost time I was gone. They were just all extra. But so I went to see the show that was I think the first album. It was, you know, a nice little show in Chicago. But I like, like rock kill me just he just delivered, you know. I was just in New York last weekend and had the old school show Carries One Slick Wig Um Kane was there, nice and Smooth Kid didn't play. It was mystical. It was nice little show. I was surprised that, you know, but it was a good show. If you could have one guests on this show. Who would it be? But before you answer, you have to help us get your answer. He might be the only person that could be able to get the person. I just hope you say his name. Wow? Is he a rapper? No? You know who? Black? Yes, you might be the only person that could really get him to us too. I mean, I'm still in the family with the shoe deal, but I can't get m on the You might you might break down. He did the four in my books, right, you know, but you know, but that's what I said to right, you know, you know you gotta could do you know what. You gotta give your teammate one here and there, right, you know, it might be every teen years, might be you gotta do that one every nothing then. But I'm gonna say this's about about m J. I haven't obviously. When I see him, it's like he ain't like he's seen me yesterday. Every time I see him, it's like he's seen me, yester. And you got a lot of love from me, you know what I'm saying. He got a lot of love from me. But uh, yeah, man, I don't put it in I'm gonna get my wife Angela because she wants the show all the time. And Ab and Arlie they'd be like, they was like, Dad, when you're gonna be on the show. Yeah, I've been over. They've been telling I had to set it up a couple of times. You know, he didn't work in New York. But perfect time. When they want the real smoke, they're gonna call perfect. Thank you for coming on. You know, I got a lot of love for you. Thank you, brother to me about the book one more time. Man, you got to get it. I mean you can't. You would not stop laughing. Don't do not drink one. Do not drink one and read this book. But you have to change clothes a couple of times. I'm honored to be in here. I'm in this book, honored, honored to be in this a lot of names. I'm telling you it will be a sequel to it, because oh yeah's just part one. Oh man, this is this is this is going to tempt and platinum and going in twenty did we think we thank you for giving us the booking the bust down to my flights and ain't gonna I'm telling you got to get for you too, though. Okay, you know we got a new merch out, no doubt. I'm a rocket. Yeah, I already know. You got to make sure you get some man. We got the brank this and for stuff. But it's coming. Yeah, I'm gonna make sure I get you. Send me all my stuff from the grills to the T shirts. I got all that stuff. Thanks for the bag, all the smoke dot story, go get it. Y'all coming with it. Yes, sir, I'm gonna cut my hair next week. I'm away. I'm a posted. It's a snapback, So you're good. Well oak Man. We appreciate your timeations on the book and more books to come. Continue, come back soon. We're talking about these these people out here. Yes, I don't mind talking about it. That's a wrap all the Smoke. Special guests Charles Oakley, make sure you go get this book right now. You can catch us on Showtime, Basketball, YouTube and the I Heart Platform Black Effects. See you all next week. This is all a Smoke, a production of The Black Effect and Our Heart Radio in partnership with Showtime

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All The Smoke

ALL THE SMOKE pairs two of the most outspoken and controversial players of their time. Known as fier 
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