ATS REPLAY: Dirk Nowitzki | ALL THE SMOKE

Published Dec 14, 2024, 11:00 AM

*Originally aired Nov 30, 2023*

NBA champ, Hall-of-Famer, and basketball legend, Dirk Nowitzki looks back on his incredible career, including tough playoff losses in 06' and 07', winning the 2011 title after beating Kobe, KD, and Lebron, and playing in the golden era of power forwards. 

Plus, he talks current-day Mavs and Luka Doncic taking over his mantle, Germany winning the FIBA world cup, his journey form getting discovered to winning NBA MVP, and much more.

This is Matt Barnes. You're listening to All the Smoke before you dive in. If you want to listen to uninterrupted episodes, you can unlock ad free listening right now with the subscription of Black Effects Plus. Just click to subscribe at the top of the All the Smoke Show page on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back, All the Smoke Man, coming to you from Dallas. Set the tone with the boss man, mister Mark Cuban, And now we got one of the greatest to ever do it.

Jack.

Yeah.

He shot a lot of jumpers in face, both of them. Yeah, we got one time.

We got him.

Know, we're going to talk about that a little later. But man, this is long overdue. I mean, your accolades twenty one years, over, thirty thousand points, drank six All time, fourteen All Stars, seven MVP Finals MVP, and eleven newest member to the Hall of Fame. Congratulations for that. That's a great class. We'll get to that a little bit. Anything funny happened in that during that Hall of Fame weekend, I mean it.

Was just unbelievable experience. Honestly, my family came, I had like one hundred and fifty people from all over the world flying in some ex teammates, so nothing really funny. You know, me and me and d Wade had a little history, so we actually we bonded a little bit. That weekend we filmed the podcast for his new new thing, and so we actually got into some of the stuff really happened in six and eleven and the fake coffin they were doing, and so that was probably, uh, that was probably the moment I would say, I didn't expect that at all. Everything else was amazing, and uh and and and just enjoyed every moment.

Well, you definitely deserved the man hell of a career, hell of a run.

I appreciate it.

Germany recently took gold in the Feeble World Cup. If someone told you back in the nineties that this is what would be been going on, would you ever would have believed it?

No, no chance. Incredible. I mean basketball's has grown, not only obviously in Germany, but all over the world. You know of players, international players from all over the world, representing you know, MVP type COUNTI players, franchise players. So it's been fun to watch where the game has gone. When I first got there in their nineties, you know, you had a few euros running around, but now every team has has a couple and it's been, it's been, it's been a pleasure to watch. And you know, Germany now is just win a Shuder leading the team. But they were super solid. They had some shooters at some some some defenders, so I think they they looked incredible at it.

Then.

Yeah, but they're building organizations around European players now, so that's that's the testament to how they are developing now.

Yeah, definitely, I mean to speak of it. I mean, the last five MVPs have all been international player, the Gianni, Joic and obviously MB before that, they're only three yourself, Steve and Hakem. What do you think has really kind of opened up the floodgates to make this NBA more of a global game.

Well, the game has grown, I think that's one thing, but make the game more accessible outside the US. And then you know, the coach has gotten better and uh, I guess uh yeah, and and the you know, the NBA has changed, and I think it's when I first got leg it was so physical, and you know, the fours and fives were all the rebounders. And then once the NBA changed rules a little bit. You know, you guys were there. They you know, they put in the zone, they got rid of the hand check in made it a little softer, so to speak. And that's playing right in the in the Euros, in the European game and in the national game. We grew up playing outside, swing the ball, five and five pick and roll game. You know, when I first got here, all plays I just got called up and then it was ISO. It's just cleared the side, you know, and and some some of that with the zone, and you can there's other things you can do now that that sort of got away from that, and it forced teams to move the ball a little more, play a little more team game, and that played right in our hands. And so that's that's I guess what you've been seeing that the game is growing and yeah, and the game has has played similar the way it is in Europe.

Yeah, let's jump back to nineteen ninety eight Hoops Summit, where you became on you know, a lot of American people's first kind of real glimpse at you. We thought we put a hell of a team out there. One of our buddies, Ray Young, who works with us isn't here today but him, Eric Barkley, Harrington, Richard Lewis, Quinn, Richison, Jeron Rush, one of the best players never to make it, Stromole Swift, You busted all their thirty three Ray told this. They tried to throw every player at you, and nothing was working. What was working for you that day.

A little bit of everything.

You know.

That was really my first time arriving in the US, and you know, it was during the Final Four at the time in San Antonio. I was I was so hyped to be there. It was an incredible experience. We got to train here in Dallas for a few days with the team, and then they flew us down to San Antonio for the Final Four. We got to watch the two semi finals game with you know, U and c. You got to watch Vince Carter and I was just so hyped. And then the game was the following morning, and I don't know, man, it was just one of those days. Had a good start, got a couple got to frouline a couple of times that game and just you know, helped me settle my nerves and just kind of rolled through there and showed it was able to show a little bit of my whole repertoire, which which I guess was was great. So that was that was a fun game. It really honestly, it changed my life overnight.

That was the next question.

I mean, my you know, back then there was no internet, there was none of that, and so I didn't I don't even think I had a cell phone back then. So my my parents had had to get an answering machine at real college coaches ordering and off the hook, I mean all night long, and they didn't understand back in the day the time change and right, So I mean we had to get an answering machine because it was getting crazy. So I was getting recruited from like probably forty colleges, and you know, all of a sudden I was, I was on the scene, and and then people were saying, hey, after that game, you might be a lot of a pick. You know, you know, I don't think you should be should be going to college.

And so that had not to cut you off. Had that even crossed your mind prior to that.

Or not a chance? I was looking at colleges and then I wasn't even thinking about staying maybe in Europe, go to I visited like a Barcelona, like a great team in Italy and Milan. I thought maybe I'll go pro there a little bit. I have a good competition and then maybe if I make it, come on later. But you know, like I said that that game change changed everything really cool.

Pissed off the press a little bit because you kind of had to do it was right for you, you know, by leaving and then obviously you had to leave your club to even play in it.

Correct.

Can you speak to a little bit of kind of what it back home? Although it would change your life in a positive it wasn't positive from everyone's outlook.

Yeah. So there was a tough, tough period because we were in the playoffs sort of getting promoted. You know in Europe that you're getting get promoted and relegated. So we were in the second division at the time, and we wanted to go up in the first division and we tried for years ever since I started the age of fifteen, and every year we're right there and we did make it. And that year we had a good team and we had a great foreigner. He was amazing. At the back of the days you only could play with one foreigner on the team. They still had the rule in the first division you had too. In the in the second division you had won, and he was amazing, and so we thought we'd have a great shot at it. And then this game came along and my coach at the time, my personal coach, Holgar, was like, I think you gotta go. We gotta go, but we can't tell the team. And so I finished a playoff game that Sunday and on Monday morning we drove to Frankfurt and flew out and I didn't tell the team, but we didn't tell the management, and so of course that didn't go well. You know, some of the guys had big bonuses on the line. How it is in Europe when you actually get promoted, they get paid, and so I heard there was some bad blood a little bit. But fast forward to come back that weekend. I had a good game and the team won the game that I was gone. So it ended up being amazing and we ended up getting promoted that year. And you know, I had a good game, So everything knock on wood worked out great. But uh, I heard some of the guys who are a little bit a little bit pistle.

I can't never feel guilty about doing what's best for you.

I know, but in the middle of the playoffs, I guess that's so that's a little tough, but yeah, money, Yeah, it worked out. It worked out well.

So growing up in American culture, movies, rap, basketball, how was that?

Well? I was a big nineties kid, you know, I loved Once I started playing basketball, I got more into the culture and you know, and and the rap and and listen to Woo Tank Lan and I.

Had all that.

I had, all that, I had all that in my repertoire and I don't know, I love the you know, wearing the Jordan shoes and uh and yeah, I just try to be a basketball guy. And it was it was fun. And then but when I came over, it a lot was different and my my language was just not quite there. My English show I was really shy my first year. You know, they didn't really understand the guys in locker room. It's a little different from the English I learned at school, and little guys no slang, and so I didn't really understand that much. So my first year was just kind of trying to learn and learn on the fly and pick up all the calls on the court, understand the guys off the court. So that was probably the hardest transition my year one, and it was a lockout year ninety eight ninety nine, so we you know, we had like six games in eight days, so they threw a lot at me my first year, and looking back, it was a very important year, but going through it, yeah, sucked.

Homesick at all during that journey.

Honestly, I didn't really have that much time. Honestly, there were so many games my first year and literally after the day of the last game, I was out. The next day. I couldn't wait to go home. But the break I was it was good for me to have Steve nash On, you know, we talked about him early Finley was was good for me. I had good two for fans that were there for me, that helped me and took me out of the hotel room. And I was when I was homesick, and they they were big for me, book supporters on and off the floor. And I'm not sure I would have gone this smooth with without them. So they I owe them a lot and they're friends for life. We talked to them all the time. We see each other. We go on vacation together with the kids now, so uh, that's that's that's a tight bond before a long time ago, and I'm glad those guys were here for me at the time.

Steve was my VIT when I got drafted.

So I know, Steve Nash my guy.

Your name has been dropped one hundred and seven times in hip hop songs.

You have a favorite one?

I didn't know.

Someone really did some digging to get that one hundred and six. You got a favorite that you can remember?

No, actually, I can't even remember one that's my name was dropped, but I got I got some research that that one.

Hundred and seven times.

Check that out holder guests you winner man behind the scenes will help you get recognized.

Talk about him.

Yeah, So I met him when I was about fifteen and just about a good relationship. I mean, he was he played in the seventy two Olympics for Germany, so he played the game himself and was playing a little bit still still at the time, and I was on on a youth team and he saw me playing and he came up to me after the game and it's like, hey, who practiced with you and your skills? And I'm like, brill Nobody I didn't know he was. It was just some older gentleman and came up to me. So I'm like, nobody, really, I just I'm still in high school and you know, I played tennis and I played basketball a little bit. So he's like, you got you got what it takes. You got a good field for the ball, but you need to improve in your skills, your shooting and dribbling and stuff. And I'm like, yeah, whatever sounds good. So the Fall of Fastward. A couple months later, he actually showed up at my club and he's like, I would love to work with you and help her out. And really I had nothing to lose. All I was doing was was playing a little bit on the club team. And so we started work about once twice a week at the beginning because I was still in school and I could really see a rapid rapid improvement. He he thought outside the box. He had had different training methods and I didn't believe in weight training at all. It was all body weight training and you know, handstands, and I mean some of the stuff has been has been reported, but he was he was definitely a different guy. And then he came to my parents' house and said, Hey, I think he's he's got a lot of talent. If he if he if he wants to really go for it, you know, we can go for it. But I need him all in. And then that's when I quit tennis and went all in on basketball and started training, you know, every day. And he was my mentor basically my entire career and still friends obviously his day. He's almost eighty now, but he's doing well. He's still back home in Germany. So he helped me a lot in times where, you know, especially the first couple of years where stuff that wasn't going right, Jumper was gone for two three days straight. I'd call him up, he'd be on the plane come over the next day. So he helped me through a ton and owe him a lot.

Is he responsible for those spinning shots and the.

Weird one what shot?

For sure? He was responsible for all that. I mean, he taught me everything, how to shoot, how to move the dribble, to play the game. And he always said, listen, you might be tall, but you're not the most athletic. You're not build strong. He's like, if you just if you want to go to the NBA, you got to bring something new to the game. And that's why we kept working on the jump shot constantly because he's like, you know, you're not going to be as athletics as the guys at the fours and five spots. You need to if you want to get a little bit of recognition there or make it, you have to bring something else to the table. And so, like I said, that was his vision outside of outside of the box, not not training like everybody else. And so I was always training with face to the basket, shooting three. He's trying to one or two, dribbling up, and so that's that's how I started to learn how to play the game. And so later on then I felt completely uncomfortable. We'll get to that series later, but I wasn't comfortable playing with the back to the basket at all because all my all, my basically ever since I learned when I was fifteen, always faced the basket. So that's that's what all the stuff that Holbert taught me.

You are.

You've already been a big part of the culture because of your game, like we all, but when you married a sister, you know, you know how much we fell in love with.

You, Brode. It's crazy.

I'm just saying, like is that this great way? It actually was. It actually was look right there right there.

Actually yeah, but we real talking about you know, everybody's a fan of Dirt with the culture.

Fell in love with you ten times when we married. Such talk about family, yeah, and what that means to you obviously you have three kids. Talked to us about that.

Yeah, it's been a crazy journey. You know, off the floor, made some mistake as well. Uh yeah, well well documented documented. Yeah, but yeah, I ended up being being super lucky and I'm ed Jess at like a charity event and a bunch of a while ago and then got married like right away. We're both ready for for a family and shoot we married last year was over to ten years or anyway. So three kids now they're ten, eight and six and you know, the oldest is a girl. Two boys. They're just there starting there. They're journey in sports with with tennis and soccer and so it's been it's been fun and it makes me super proud of to just watch them and it's a fatherhood and being married. It's it's been a dream of mine. It's been I'm enjoying every minion right now. They're in a great age and now I'm obviously done. I'm retired. I have time. I don't have a boss. I can go to everything I want, and so it's been. We can travel the world, which we've done, you know, we have. I'm from Germany, my sister and my wife is half Swedish, half Kenyon. So we go to Africa, we go to Sweden. So I want them to I want our kids to be global citizens and you know, speak different languages and travel the world. Whatever later on they get thrown into they can handle. And so it's been it's been a fun journey off the court with them the last couple of years since since retirement.

Love It ninety eight Draft Heavy bibby Antoine Jamison, Vince Carter, Paul Pierce to name a few What was your draft process like? And did you have to do a bunch of workouts? A couple of workouts? How many workouts you do? So I did?

I had it?

Actually none, I wasn't actually so at the time, No, I did. I did one. Well, obviously some NBA teams saw me here. And then Donnie Nelson, who was assistant coach of the Maps. He was the assistant coach of the Hoop Heroes team that we talked about earlier, so he's obviously seen me up front and closed for like a week, and and then I did a workout for for the Boston Celtics, I think for Rick Bittino somewhere, and he was in Italyan vacation, and so he saw me. I knew Dallas at the sixth pick. I knew Boston at the tenth pick at the time, and uh, but the rest was kind of up in the air because I told everybody I wasn't. I wasn't quite sure if I was ready for it.

I was.

I told him I might still pull out. I can still go to college, I don't have an agent, I can still stay in Europe. So I didn't even go to draft. I think our drafted at that year was in Toronto. I can't remember Vancouver. I think it was in Canada.

And uh.

I didn't go to the draft because I thought there's no way somebody's actually taken me with with that risk of me not showing up and wasted top ten pick. And so I stayed in Germany. I trained all the way through and got a call in the middle of the night or olger My guy got a call from donn in the middle of the night said hey, u Dal we picked you and we're like what and uh, sure enough, Like literally a day or two days later, they flew in Donny Flu and Big Nelly, who you guys know, I was the coach at the time in Rossboro Junior, who was the owner before Cubes. So they all came into my hometown of wurtz Berg and hang out for a couple of days and got to know my family and and they were like, listen, don't make a decision with just say no before you I'm seeing Dallas and met some of the fellas. So they flew me in a couple of days after the draft. They got to meet Steve and Mike and some of the other players and they were like, listen, we're not a great team, we're a young team, we're still growing and you know, we're just there's no pressure on you. And and then I was like, you know what they they think there I could do it, and so I decided I'll come. So it was a big step for me.

Uh.

Of course, coming out of Germany, they haven't really played first division yet and so that was a big jump from basically the second division of Germany to the NBA. I mean it was quite the decision then. And then there was a lockout ninety eight so I couldn't sign a contract, so that that allowed me to stay in Germany a couple almost six more months, got to train, got to play First Division from a home club because we had just gotten promoted. Those months were important for me. I think where I played some you know, some men and some had a little better competition every day and so and then yeah, summer in January, they called me and said the season is saved. And I was like, I was secretly hoping that there was the whole season right, secretly hoping I can have a whole year to train and get ready more and get a little more stronger. But sure enough they called me and they saved the season. So then I came over end of January. And then it was like from February till May, it was like a three months crazy whirlwind season. So it was, uh, that was wild, but glad it. I'm glad I got through it.

First impression of Big Nelly done.

I mean, he was a master, mastermind was you know, Honestly, I was lucky. I was lucky to get to a team where where he was. You know, I think back when I got started in the late nineties, there were not a lot of coaches that wanted big guys to shoot and pick and pop, and sometimes he brought the ball up. And you know, if I would have ended up somewhere else in another system, or even with Rick Patino, who helped me from the full court press, I don't think that. I don't think that that would have worked well for me. I think so I was in a perfect system with with Steve and Mike who supported me. So I was. I was really fortunate there and and all Nelly was kind of doing was his place was super simple. I mean, you guys know, it was a high pick and roll. It was fisted up, it was a fist side, and then there was these elbow catches with some curls around and the rest was let him, let him play.

So process is like the number one offense in the league for a lot of different teams. When he ran it, it was simple, but it got the job done. You were in the golden era of power forwards. Kevin Garnett as Him, Duncan, Chris Weber, Rashid Wallace, Been, Baker, Karl Malone and Dice Juwan Howard. I know we're forgetting some, but yeah, I mean that's a hell of a That was the strongest position in the league, probably outside of center at the time. And what was it like for you early on?

Oh man, it was it was tough every night I had to bring in and the good thing was on my defense. Obviously it was never great in my career, but at the beginning it was really terrible. So what they were doing is I would even if I would end up on one of these guys, they would just have me front and so I had to work on my fronting. As soon as they crossed, like the little free throw line, try to post me. I would just try to wrestle my way around them. And as soon as they love hit, comes Sean Bradley over in seven six and we'll kind of trap them. So that was that was one defensive strategy, and the other one was just let the fives go out their force and I would guard the fives just because you know they're they're these guys were so good and they were I was a mismatch to all these guys, So you know, it's all Nelly coming up with with with defensive things that we can kind of get away with with me being on the court and stretching the cord on offense and and getting away with it on the defensive end. But at the end of the day, we still try to outscore, you know, Steve on the show, Finn posting off, doing his all around game, and I'm running around shooting and so as those were some fun years, man, we had with Nick van Exell, and we had he was we had, we had it.

We had a good Nick Wood squad.

So but yeah, the power forward was loaded. And it also of course made me better because I knew I had to I had to bring my a game every.

Night every night. Your first season you struggled a little bit. Second and third season you started to find your stride. You know, forty game, forty wins, fifty three wins. By year three you're at twenty two ten and shooting forty percent from the three point line, which is unheard of because again people your size aren't really shooting threes at that time. What clicked?

Were you?

What changed?

Well? It was fortunately my second year. You know, they saw I was a little too slow for actually I started being a small forward because they knew I can't go to any other power forwards, so I started small forward and then that was tough to keep up though, so that they kind of saw, okay, this is not He's not really a small forward in this league, so let's try to play him a power forward. And then we had a guy named Gary Trent. You guys probably remember him. He was an ox so and he played amazing for us my rookie year, and then he was clearly the starter going in my second year, and which was totally fine. I would have come just off the bench. And then in preseason he tore his hamstring and so basically there were not a lot of other power forwards on the roster, so you know, we kind of had to make it work, and that's when we came up with all these defensive schemes. But then all of a sudden my year two, I went from not starting in my first year to playing thirty thirty five minutes to night and confidence. You know, got to play through mistakes and learn from mistakes, and finally my language starting to catch up. Now I had a full training camp under me, I finally got an apartment in the car, was fully settled, so I think all that played in the year two, where year one was just so quick, and I mean I had a rental car my whole year one. I didn't really have time to get settled even so that that all played in, felt more comfortable off the floor, and then had a lot of playing time, got to learn and make some mistakes and they fellas obviously helped me with everything. So that that was a big jump from year one to year two, and that that year two kind of set me up to keep going and keep getting better, and that gave me a lot of confidence.

Real quick, jeffre you go, I want to say, hopefully this was you and it wasn't someone else. Did you not know how to use the AC in your car?

That was you? Right?

I heard a story about that summertime. Tell us about that.

Well, you know, so I have my Year one. I just had a rental Rentald car because I was literally here. I knew I was here only for three months, and uh, and so I was I was coming to Rentald. The guys were always killing me when I drop up in my little in mini car. And then uh, yeah, it was going you know, the season was going longer, it was going into May, and it was already getting warm, and I'd come to the game and I had a couple of sweat drips on my forehead and they're like, where are you coming from? You know, you run in or something. And one day I'm like, nice, it's always hot. I've got to drive with my uh and roll down my windows it's so hot. And then something Yeah, but they actually showed me. So there's this button that's a C and yeah. I didn't have that in my first car in Germany, and I didn't have an AC button, so I had no idea. I kept, you know, putting the fan up, but it was it was blowing warm air. So I always came to the game sweaty, and then until until upon the a C button and that's uh change phenomena.

I think it's called yogging with the soft j. Yeah, that's funny, yoggy.

I gotta see ron Berg. Uh.

Dennis Rodman had a brief stand here.

What was that? Like?

I was wild. I mean, I'm a big Chicago Bulls fan in the nineties there obviously, Uh so he was. He was one of my heroes. And then you know, q S bought the team the second my second year. Halfway through and he's like, you know, we need to make a splash year. We need to get on the map. This is a cowboys town and I want to bring the the Mavericks back. I think I'm gonna sign Dennis Rodman, who were like, are you serious? But he ended up doing it and it was it was quite an experience, so he uh every time. So as a team meeting, we usually meet with Nelly. Obviously with forty minutes before the game. So the first game we have Dennis Robman, We're all kind of like excited he's starting, So forty minute rolls around. He gets up, Nell's about to start the film. Robin gets up and goes take a shower, like okay, So he comes back. He didn't see the video, he doesn't know the coverages, so he just goes out and kind of does Sometimes he squeezes, sometimes he hedges a little bit, sometimes he does nothing. So I was like, okay, maybe he just did it one time. Second game, forty minutes on o'clock, he gets up in showers, so he missed all the pregame meetings before the game and had no idea about the coverages that we're doing, and kind of did his own thing, and I was like, that was just his routine. At forty minutes before the game, he was he was showering, and then and then after the game, he would just put his own gear on and would go lift hard for like an hour and a half, two hours. Wouldn't wouldn't, wouldn't be with the team, would just be fine, fine to his his his workout room and he had his little workout coach, and then they were just lifting heavy for like an hour and a half after the game. And then you just put on a cowboy hat with these long feathers, didn't shower and just walked right out the arena. And it was and the media scrum with chasing him, and he's and he's mumbling something like this. It was a comedy side show. And then it just wouldn't work. It wasn't working well that those couple of games he was here. But it was definitely a splash. I mean, you know that the arena was full and he got kicked out of one game. He sat on the court for a while and the rest didn't want to throw him out. I mean, there was a lot of stuff happened, which was a cool experience for me. I guess as a young guy growing up, but it just basketball wise, it just unfortunately didn't work.

How did you get your signature move?

Well, I think I started shooting that later. You know, in the twenties, you have the power with somebody's crowded, you try to rip through and get the basket, get fouled a lot. And just as I gotten older and I lost the step, and you know, I didn't want to do all the grinding get fouled, so I looked for for a shot that I can do with without a lot of you know, effort. You know I'm tall. It was just one or two bumps and lean back. I knew nobody can get to the shot. So that's really how I started shooting a little bit at the beginning. And you know, of course I had the support from the coaches because you know, not a lot of guys wanted to shoot a one leg fade away, but you know, they saw it go in a little bit, and I was practicing it a little bit, and so I started shooting and mostly that dead year we actually had the championship run and things were going really well there and I made most of them. So I was like, okay, this is a good weapon for me going forward, because you know, guys was really starting to crowd me because I lost is two step or two and then this was just a way for me to stay stay efficient and and and still be a decent score even in old age.

He's a decent kind of right. Uh oh three, you hurt your knee in game for how tough is that? I mean, obviously changed the series dramatically, uh mentally kind of your first injury in the n B A big injury in the NBA.

Yeah, that was terrible. We were That was the year when we had Van Exell and he was he was amazing for him to believe we had we had a fun crew that year. I still think you guys would have been us, honestly. I mean, you guys were were so solid and with with Timmy and and everybody. I mean, I still don't think even if I'm healthy, we win that series. But at least seven, it would it would have been It would have been interesting. It would have been interesting. I think, like we had such a we had such a good run, but they were such a jugging out on defense that our offense never really clicked the way we wanted it because they were so well coached, and you know Timmy in the middle, and so I'm not sure he would have beaten you guys, But that was brutal to sit there, and I think it was monoil. I fell into my knee and I just sprained my knee, and I wanted to play so bad the next game. And then actually I even went to the pregame workout and I looked okay, and that's where actually Nelly and Cuban went into it, got into a little bit and they were never on the same page again. I think Cubes wanted me to play the way I worked out pregame, and Nelly was like, listen, he's twenty three longer, long career had him, I'm not going to play.

Him, and.

So they they didn't see eyda I actually ever since after that. So but yeah, going back now, I think it was the right decision not to play, because because I was so young, and even just standing there watching some of the game, I felt my knee was getting a little weak and a little sore, and so I think it was the right decision not to play. But of course it was. I mean, it was tough.

You put him in the game.

Play game six because they they were saying he was going he was saying he was going to play, and it was game six.

We just knew he was going to play. He didn't put that uniform.

And then we had remember we had Wald Williams. After every three he gave a shake and then we were up going to fourth like fifteen points, and there comes Steve Kerr. I don't know, we didn't have him on the on the radar at all, and he came in and we obviously trapped Tommy every time down and then Steve had like four or five. Hasn't played all year again, it was that whole bang game too. Yeah, I don't think he played that playoffs, the whole Steve, I'm not sure, but he did. He comes in drains four threes and completely changed the game and bright that was. That was a tough one and maybe I would have tried to play in seven, but well we'll never know. But like I said, you guys were I had twenty three that game, Yeah, easy, twenty three.

You was not there.

So it was cool, oh six up to oh against Miami in the finals and d Wade and Sheck company come back when you guys and went four straight. What was that like mentally.

Well, you know, there were a couple of low points in my career. That was definitely one of them. You know, we left here to oh feeling good. The Dallas Morning News and newspaper here had the parade route or in the paper. Wow, so big enough a jink.

Can't do that.

You can't, you can't do that. But we were we were kind of going down there. Things are going well, we think we're going to win this, and then we're still playing well in game three and we were still up with like a couple of minutes ago, we were we were still up and then uh, you know, we ended up losing that game and then things kind of just fell apart. I think we're still too young. We were quite ready for that stage, and that was really that was the way it's coming out party. I mean, he was unguardable pick and rolls, getting to the basket and starting to make some shots. We couldn't keep them in front of us, and so, uh yeah, we ended up losing, got blown out in game four. Switched hotels before game five. Avery snapped on us after game four, it's like too much family here. I went out, So we moved somewhere to fund Lauderdale and uh and try to stop the bleeding, and then lost a close one in game five again and then lost it here in game six. So you know, I was I was really frustrated disappointed, but honestly I was I was thinking, Okay, I'm I'm in my prime, I'm ready for this, and we're going to be back. We have a good team. We're bringing the same team back again next year. And uh so I wasn't as disappointed in six as as I actually was in O seven.

But looking back at that though, do you see something that you could have switched after game two to make that series go indifferently?

I mean, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, like I said, d Wade was incredible that series. I don't know if we could have trapped them more trying to keep them out the lane, I'm not sure. But their role players started to play better too, and and you know they had Entin Walker and Gary Payton and Posey that that's some good players. And then you know, they started to get more confidence after that first win and they started to play better, shoot better from the outside. You know, Haslam is a great player, always had a lot of respect for him. He's probably one of the guys that guarded me best throughout my career. So they had they had a good team, and so which if we finished that game three off with a little more experience, I think that then we have it. But since we let them, we let them get some life and get some they got hyped and and played even harder, and then you know that's yeah, the rest is history.

Next season MVP sixty plus wins. Nelly took this personal, like we weren't even supposed to be in the playoffs, but he said, if we get in the playoffs, we're going to play Dallas and we're going.

To beat him. And that's all I care about life.

Yeah, and he quit, I don't quits a big Well, he might have checked out after. He didn't give a damn after that. So that that season again, Hughes sixty five win, sixty seven wins, sixty eight wins.

Sixty seven seven wins.

You're the MVP one verse eight. What is your thought going into that series?

Verse?

Because we actually played you guys well that season, although we were out of the mix at the time, we played you guys well.

Yeah, So where's and O six. Like I said, I wasn't that frustrated. Of course, I was a little disappointed, as I was like, I'm in my prime. Next year we're coming in where we have the same team. We're going to roll. Started season off one to four win in a double overtime in Phoenix. We're about to go on five and we win and then roll the rest of the season. It was just one of those roles where like we're on the road somewhere down the fourth quarter, just looked at each other and Jet like where we're going to We're going to come back with this. We're going to get some big starts and we need him and we're going to just find some offense and give the ball to me and Jet and we'll make it happen. So there was We had a crazy amount of confidence during that whole season and then here come the Warriors, and I didn't we didn't love playing you guys. I gotta say it's that was. That was a tough matchup.

That was.

Yeah, you could laugh. I wish I could lay.

We didn't love playing Yeah.

I wish I could laugh now you were. You guys were a tough matchup for us. Not only did Nellie know every every strength of ours since he coached us, and he knew exactly.

What to do.

Bro, I had tape on you just you your moves just up to ut thirty minutes is just your tape, Bro.

Well, there were a lot of move There was always going left. You always said you can only you can only go left. No, but you also had a lot of teams obviously had the blueprint, but they didn't have the personnel to pull it off. Yeah, you guys had a small team that always gave me problems and other problems. You guys are running in the post. Usually I can catch on anybody. We had a tough time getting the ball to me. Passed it first of all. Then every time I drove one way and I spun where I came the trap, he's gonna I like shooting out of my spin. So then when I we didn't have a great shooting team, or we didn't have a great passing team. So both of these things, you guys just just took advantage of.

It.

Was it was tough. I couldn't stop the bleeding. I didn't I didn't shoot well. I mean that was that was probably my worst playoff series. That I've played, and all the credit obviously to you guys, And that was that was tough. And then I took seven almost harder than six, because you know, maybe I had such high expectations. We beat the Spurs like three out of four that year. In my mind, I'm saying, we're we're winning the championship that year, and and I had so much made so much pressure on myself, and then maybe maybe I was even froze up a little bit too much. I didn't play loose against you guys and have fun, and so that was that was one of that was one of the toughest. I felt like almost embarrassed for for a couple of weeks. I didn't want to leave my house. I didn't want to go to the m v P ceremony take the m v P. You know, usually back in the days, the m v P ceremony was during the second round, during the pregame. We didn't have a game anymore, so I had to put a pseuito on and go down there, and it was just it was just awkward. I didn't want to be there. So every time I see my m v P trophy not at home, it's unfortunately in my mind. I think you guys, I think all the smoke when I see my my dumb did you.

Throw a chair or something at the wall in Oracle, because I've never heard the story how that happened.

So I'm I'm always I was just pissed off. I'm not quite sure how it happened. Somebody said there was a trash can, uh, or somebody said it was a chair. I don't think a trash can could actually make a whole like this, so I can actually can't remember how it happened. But yeah, afterwards, somebody said, yeah on the wall.

And they hung we believe Jersey up next to like the masks.

Yeah, it was the forever. It was different, which was great. I mean, you guys had had a fun team.

I think you know, with all due respect you winning MVP as good as your team, you came back with the different You were different the next year though. We felt like like we like we helped you, you came back a different dirt.

Well, you know, as it is in life, you have to learn from from tough situations, from tough tough moments, and I felt like, you know, you guys pushed me to be better a little bit with my back to the basket. You know, that was I mentioned it earlier. I always liked to face, like to drive and then spend. It was just a little too predictable. So you know, I said, you have to add, you have to add more to your game. You have to work hard the summer and be be a better be better leader and more complete players. So I got a lot more comfortable, you know, posting up then, and even if it was free throw line or or down the box, and I would never even still then I would not out muscle you and get to the basket. But I was more comfortable there operating in that area and shooting over smaller guys, shooting fadeaways. And then one legger came and so I think, yeah, you guys forced me to get back in the lab and and get better and push and and I always say, without the disappointments in O six and O seven, I wouldn't have been the closer and eleven. I think that's that's very true. You know, you have to go through tough times and and and learn from from some tough mistakes and and get better. And so that was you guys pushed me to be to be better.

So eight and ten. You guys are building you bringing Jason Kidd tricks, Sean Mary and Pasia Karan who doesn't help you get down the stretch run because he gets hurt over the big piece. Rick Carlisle as well. What did all those pieces being to you?

So actually when we made I was like, okay, it was seven. We still had the best team going to A eight. We lose to you guys, but we're we won sixty seven games. We're straight, we're good. And then the OAIT season started and stuff is just not going as well, and it actually shows don't take stuff for granted. Man, Sometimes things can change in a heartbeat within one season. You know, all of a sudden, we're not right there anymore. We're not with the best team. All of sudden, teams have passed us by. And then our window from six and seven all of a sudden looked closed. And so things were going well at all in the wait season, and then we did the trade at all set game for Jake Kidd. We felt like his leadership is is you know, like I mentioned earlier, weren't great passing. We were on great, great playmaking. We had some good scores at the guards, but not not getting everybody involved playmakers, and so we made the deal for j Kid at the All Set game and and that didn't pan out that we wanted to at the beginning either. So they're in eight to ten. There was there were a lot of changes. You know, we still had Avery when when Jay Kidd first came, and then you know, Carla took over, I believe in the eight or nine season. Then we did the big trade with with Washington to bring in Haywood d Steve, who was crazy and uh and uh of course Karan and so they fit in well, and all of a sudden, you know, there the windows open again. We felt like we had a good team. We had some veterans and yeah, and going into that you know, ten to eleven season, we felt like we had a good team. I don't think we were necessarily favorites, but we felt like we had some veterans and we had a good start to the season. And then I got hurt right around Christmas time, and then so I was out. I was hurt, and then New Year's Day. I'll never forget. We're in Milwaukee, that's where Karan is from, and I'm sitting out in a suit because I'm not playing, and Kuran goes for rebound and just screams and lays on the ground and I'm so, we're all rushing over there, and I see literally he tore his patel attendant and his his kneecap had dislocated, so it sat and sat on top on his skigh. I'm like, I'm trying to dry heath. It was. It was nasty, and so our trainer was like, oh my god, we need wheelchair, wheelchair And that was one of the toughest things I was saying. I mean, Kuran, it's pretty tough. So he heard wheelchair and he's from Wisconsin. His grandmother was there, his family. He's like, I'm not I'm not getting out of here in a wheelchair. So he's like I watched him push his kneecap down by himself and he gets up and starts hopping. You know how in the old Milwaukee Arena that was to go back to the locker room, and he walked that on his own power. I said, this, this guy, this guy is built different. And uh but then you know, here we go again. We think in our our windows closing, you know, losing up. He was probably our second best Scar. I think he was our second best scorer that year, and so we're like, oh god, here it goes again. Right, It's just a bunch of bad luck. And but I would say that he he motivated us, inspired us the way he wanted to come back and fought and attacked rehab. I mean he was almost ready to play in that in that final series in eleven. I mean he was. He was a beast. And every day watching him, how he how he handled himself, how he attacked that rehab, that that really motivated us, and that that inspired us for that ten to eleven run.

Blazers Lakers, okay see Miami, twenty eight points were gained, forty nine percent field goal, forty six throw line gee Woolakers took down Kobe kat and Lebron. We call that as you know, on one, he was definitely on one. Well what mind frame will you win?

We had a good run, you know, I started. We started against Portland. They they gave us some problems. Yeah that Marc roy b roy still they had they had a good team, they were they were smart. Uh, and so we didn't play the well there we almost lost one at home and I took us We get took us well to get going, and then I felt like we lost both both games in Portland and it was it was too too coming back here. And that's still I remember to this day. I was like, we're not going to lose to them. We're not going to lose Game five on our home court. And I don't know why I said that to I usually don't say much in the team meetings and stuff. I'm a quiet guy. Let the coaches do their thing. But that day, I'm like, even in the pregame meeting, I was like, there, they're not beating us. Where we got that.

You know what they do your teammate to hear Dirk say that, you just in the back of the locker room, Quill, But.

They ain't beating us today.

Yeah, everybody, you know. I just felt that. I just felt that because in Game four we were up like twenty and b Roy made that magical run and they beat it, and I just had that that's not going to happen again. And so and then from there we started a role. We started a roll. We won game five at home, beat them in game six, went straight down to LA and stole a miracle Game one where Kobe was like hot at like forty, I think it could seem like he couldn't miss, and we basically stole that one at the buzzer and from there, I don't know, we just we just got confidence was getting better and we had the roles were defined perfectly right. You had you had Tricks and Kid and Tyson. They were the defenders right on offense. We knew Jet and I and JJ we were going to wheel and deal and do our thing, and obviously we had some shooters, but I felt like we're our roles were perfectly defined, and we had, you know, a great bench that we can change the tempo a little bit. So, uh, I don't know. It was just a magical time. We had Paga that we signed some in February. I think he got bought out in Toronto and we took a chance on it. He did it look like he could play with his back, and he rehabbed for two three months every day and then gave us unbelievable ron there. I made some huge shots in the Lakers and Oka C Series, and so everything that we did that year kind of panned out, and I know it's fortunate.

I guess you guys ended up getting to the top of the mountain on a hell of a journey. Were there ever times Cube talked about it at some point in your career, trying to get Paul Pierce, trying to get Kobe. Was there ever a time you possibly thought about hitting the market or possibly playing for someone else.

Yeah, I mean, so I four years, was the rookie deal, and then basically right right in the my last year, I believe on my rookie deal, I signed a max deal. I signed just you know, the same deal at Vince signed back in the days, and Paul we signed a six year deal. And then I wasn't titularly hit free agency until my tenth year in the league. So it was I think I was free agents there in twenty ten and right before actually the championship year, and you know, I didn't want to go anywhere. I loved it here. It's been ten years, but you know, do you think about, hey, are we ever going to get back to the stage. And so I went to since I really didn't have an agent. Hold girl was helping me with some of that stuff, but I didn't have an agent, So I just went over to Mark's Houston. We sat down on his couch and you know, just reminisced and talk for like, you know, two hours on what we've done and how fun this run was. And I said, okay, let's let's run it back.

And then.

Both got a little emotional talking about their old days. And then I ended up signing that four year deal, and then we ended up winning the championship and in year one and so it's yeah, it worked out perfect. And then of course I knew I wasn't going to go anywhere after winning the championship. That would have been the only reason to go somewhere at the end to chase something or maybe chase a ring. But since since we got it done here, I never I never had to do that.

Luca. Uh, he came in your last season, extremely talented. We talked about off camera, Jackson, did you see this? You're like, I don't know if we saw to this extent, but he's been special. What is your relationship with him like? And what what how's it been just being able to see him play night in, night out.

Yeah, so when once we uh, my my end of career wasn't pretty. You know, we're struggling. There was some talk of tanking going on and you know, just things didn't go well here for this franchise, and uh and we we needed a little spark block to change things. And uh and here I didn't. I didn't think that was gonna be this kid. I didn't think it's gonna be this kid. When he walked in the first time here in this practic facility. You know, he looked at his sick. He's a big boy. But I'm like, I'm not sure this is gonna work. Is he quick enough? Is he athletic enough to go by guys like he is in Europe? And so there were there were plenty of doubts there from from everybody on the team. And you know how you meet already before training camp starts. Uh, you know, you meet a month before and you hoop every day and you work out together. And so guys were trying to test him a little bit and you know, foul him a little bit here and there, and their scrimmages and and you can already see that this kid's got something about him. He's got that swag, he knows how to play. He was he was getting some in one mixtape, passes out of nowhere, And I'm like, he was he was flashing some of the talent. So we were we were we were thinking, man, he's he's going to be a really good player. But I didn't think he was going to go to that level mass right, I mean he's a couple. Yeah. I think it was last season or before he averaged triple double for an entire month. I mean, I didn't see that coming. So in my first year, unfortunately, my last my last year, his first year, I was I was hurt a lot. I missed the first thirty forty games, so I didn't really get to spend you know, I didn't even go on road trips the first couple of months, so that was a little tough. I didn't really get to spend as much time around him as I wanted to. But I mean that was his time to shine. You know. We looked to him and he you know, he took the ball and took it from there. And yeah, just really proud of how he developed and my role with him. I guess we're friends. We're cool, we're you know, when I'm town, we go to dinners or whatever. Mentor would be a little strong because he doesn't really need me. I mean he's as you guys see, he plays like a thirty two year old veteran, how he reads the game, how he carries himself on the court, And I mean I didn't really I wish. I would love to say I helped him and talk to him about it, but it's just the guy just came. He's been a pro since he's like eleven years old, and that's how he plays the game like there's nothing can rattle him during the game and he just does his thing. And so his his development has been incredible, and I didn't think he could get better from year to ear, but he's still showing it and I'm super happy for him.

How you do anything is how you do everything. That's cute saying talk about it.

Yeah, I mean Mark obviously has been a big influence on my career and my life as well. Uh he bought the team in my second year, and we've developed a great friendship and relationship and uh he was always my number one supporter when stuff was going right. Uh even off the floor, he was there helping me out with stuff and uh so he was a big influence for me and he was always loyal to me. So yeah, we've we've had a great friendship. I mean, I say this all the time, how many owners go to their best players bachelor party in Vegas? But he was there.

A bit.

Yeah, so we had a special bond and relationship and and so yeah, and that's at the beginning. He was literally so fired up when he bought the team. He was at every practice, at every road game, he was sitting in the players sections, on the on the plane, and so he was he was constantly around. And his energy and and you know, his savvness is the way he cares himself kind of also obviously carried over to the team. So he was he was a big influence on being on the Mavericks sport.

He said something that kind of surprised me when he said when he first got the team because it was new to him. So he said, guys like you and Steve and Mike kind of helped him learn the ropes and what it's like in the locker room and how players like things and and it was refreshing for me to hear, because you think, someone who's got a bunch of money and this is my team or my way. He was more really almost like a player's owner, so to speak, as far as kind of getting to really know what you guys like and dislike.

He yeah, he changed everything, you know, and when when I first got here, you know, we were doing the bare minimum. We were staying you know, Marriotts and all that, and we had the flight flights that everybody had, those old planes. And then he was like, okay, we need to change some stuff around. I want to I want to put I want free agents to come here and look at Dallas is the spot to be. And so he just started to turn everything around. Money at that point at the beginning didn't matter at all. He bought a new plane, he built a new arena. We started to stay at these nice hotels. We started have good catering after we didn't have any food my first.

Team.

Yeah, we started that. He wanted to show basically the visiting teams, hey, you know, we take care of you guys here. It's just a little imagine what it's like. He just planning a little seed, you know, Hey, hey guys, we will take care of you guys here. So and so he was just like I said, resources were not the problem. He put everything in and he took care of his players and he took him made that trade with Washington when we got jrew On where we took a bunch of money back and it cost us a ton of money or him obviously, but he showed him I'm willing to pay whatever I wanted to win, and so that was a fun atmosphere I think for for US players to be around. And I always say I had a fun time playing my twenty one years, But those first couple of years when when you're part of something, you're turning it around. We were garbage for for a whole decade in the nineties, and then slowly, surely Steve, Mike and I we get better. We turn things around. You see that, you know stuff is happening. People get excited in the city. Those are some of the best years I had in the NBA.

Really dope.

I was always I was almost your teammate in twenty fourteen. Oh no almost, So we heard you beat up the trade. Thanks, I must have betailed that.

Before. Obviously, thank you for your time. Before we get to these quick hitters. Obviously, when you're in the mix and you're almost on the Hampshire Wilder in your career, you never get to kind of sit back and appreciate, you know, what you've accomplished. You know, you've been removed for a handful of years now, like when you look back on your career, like what what do you think about when comes to your mind?

It's been a heck of a ride, and it's very fortunate obviously to be here and being staying in one spot and you know, staying solarty, stay sort of you know, injury free throughout my whole ride. So it's been, Yeah, it's been. I was blessed and it's one of an incredible ride. And to me, topped it off this summer with with the Hall of Fame. I think now to me that that was sort of the closure. My first half of my life is over with this and couldn't have gone any better, honestly, you know. So I'm extremely happy and of course proud, and my family is super proud of out of Germany, I was able to play in the NBA for twenty one year. It's been a hell of a ride. And we'll see what the next chapter looks like.

Now, how does it feel to be the best European player ever?

Well, you know, now it's gonna be tough, you know, to keep that are yeah, keep that up? Now with the with the generation that we have coming now. I mean, but it's it's yeah, it's it's if before me there was some fun European players like shremp was one of my idol songs from the Josh and Petrovitch was a stud Kukach. I mean there there were great players. And then you know, if if if I came in and Tony Parker Gasol, if we came in and sort of helped these other guys now a little bit, or inspired them in a way or motivated them in a way, that that's that's obviously thrilling and humbling to hear. So if we were part of somebody else's journey, and that's that's been amazing. And now we have you know, j and jokerchen.

Bro on the back.

Bro you killed in the NBA for a long time.

Yeah, this was a yeah, it was a long time. But like I said, it's been so many opened the door for me. And if I pushed the door open it even a little wider, then that's that's humbling.

All right.

Well, quick hitters, first thing to come to mind, let us know and we'll get you out of here. The biggest risk you've ever taken.

No question, coming to the NBA, coming out on you though, coming out of the second division in Germany, I mean that was that was a wi I'll move, but I ended up ended up working with pretty well.

For you, you have an it? What's your guilty pleasure?

I'm a big food guy. Ice cream, I mean, are not good?

Not good? Worst piece of advice you've ever heard.

Worst piece of advice, I'm not sure. Yeah, nothing, Yeah. Just to see yourself as a work in progress. Really, always keep improving, never be satisfied. Uh you know. I always see yourself as a as a learning guy, even now in life. Try something new, try to learn different things. Never see yourself as a finished product.

Dallas mavericks all time. Starting five.

With me or without me, with you, I mean, I played with some some stuff, so I'm gonna have to go probably a small lineup. Snashy is obviously one of my best buddies. He is the one Jake Kidd Hall of Famer. He played the two. He can guard the two's now they can both handle the ball. My guy, Finley is was play the three. I mean he helped me so much growing up and he wasn't He was basically the man when I got here, and then I mean there's a lot of guys if I if I played the four, then there's a lot of guys for the fifth spot, you know, like a Jets or I mean, yeah, this Nick Vannox. That was amazing for us those couple of years he was here. Yeah, that's that's a tough one. But it's a really small lineup. But those those are probably my four or five.

Yeah, how good with Josh Howard.

I love Josh. Love Josh. You know, he played with a chip on his shoulder because he he was pissed off that he was drafted so late. You know, he thought he had a great couple of years there at Wake Forest and then he dropped almost you know, into the first round and what I'm gonna show everybody? And then that's how he approached every game. He was going at people's necks, and we love that. He was our defender. He was long, he was versatile, and I love Josh. He's still around here. I've never thought he'd be he'd get into coaching because he was at times, i'd say a little a little tough to coach. Uh, he's coaching some college around here. So I run into him every now and then, and apparently he's great and they love him, and but I didn't see I didn't see Stack becoming the coach either. I say some of these guys were a little tough on their own coaches then, but okay now now they now they head coaches.

Childhood crush, oh Shore childhood crush.

And I mean the nineties. I mean it was a little Kim Foxy exactly exactly exactly see what else.

She was und picture this.

I'm having one of those moments. Yeah, something you wish you were better at mm hmm.

In life or something anything, maybe a better communicator in life. I think I take a lot of stuff in in myself. I don't I don't love sharing my feelings too much. And I know over over my my life that's driven my career, my my family nuts a little bit. So I wish I was communicating my feelings a little better. I think that's that's that's that's one that's I need to work on.

That's me and period period five dias dead alive.

I mean, i'd say Michael Jordan obviously, I mean he was he's my hero, is my goat always. I'd say mommad Ali Oh and then there's a there's so many greats out there.

Just because you was at Cubans.

We asked him by his pipe, he had you at his table.

Yes, that's sweet. I would not have him on my table. I'm gonna go. I was a big tennis guy, so I'm gonna go with Roger Federer. Yeah, I mean, unbelievable, A big, big tennis fan. Growing up. I was a big Boris Becker fan. So that's four mainly sports and the fifth do uh maybe Tiger Woods?

Nice, that's a table. If you could see one guest on our show, who would it be?

But you have to help us get your answer on the show. Can't be shy?

Okay, who hasn't been on the show.

Excuse me, excuse me?

Okay, you guys trying to get Luca.

Yeah, he said Luke, I ain't. I wouldn't even know what she was going to say.

Well, we'll see. He is still in the phase you know where he's a little shy.

You know, you've been there.

I came here, and you know, sometimes if it's just English the second language, you're almost a little you're scared to say something wrong. Yeah, and then and then I think he's already gotten a little looser in interviews from his first year or first two years, so I think eventually he'll get there. We'll have some fun with you, guys, it's just not.

This is the show to let loose on though.

It's a show the funk up we understand anybody Well, Dirk Man, we want to thank you for your time. Obviously you're busy, but also just give you your flowers. Man, Obviously everything you did for this franchise, but the league and you know obviously the international influx now of talent and like you said, if you kicked it open a little bit, but we know you kicked it open a lot. But man, it was a pleasure to battle against you and want you play. And congratulations on just the career and the family and everything.

Man, well deserve. I appreciate you. Bro.

That's a wrap. The one and only Dirk Newiskey. He can catch us on Showtime Basketball, YouTube and the iHeart platform. Black Effects