Hey want to welcome in up Degli and you have downloaded all ball. Uh. This is um continued conversation in part two, and I give you some of my other thoughts on on some of the college beat if you will, some unbelievable first half of the season storylines, if you will, like, look we're waking up, Tim Miles. San Jose State beat un l V Like that's an incredible win. And I understand that San Jose States not a not a n c A tournament team, but more importantly it was a completely dormant program. And to beat Vegas at home and they don't get a ton of support, like that's gigantic. There's also more commentary I'd like to make on the transfer portal and things like that, but I don't want to take away from this part to of this conversation. When we last talked with a Golden who was of course now the head coach at UTAP, he had been high school coach, he had been a college assistant, you know, he had been at at Arkansas Little Rock, among other places, and now he finally gets his chance to be a head coach, granted now a Division one head coach right away, and he wasn't the first choice of his own alma mater. Right, Take a listen. This is Joe Golden, the head coach u TEP, getting his first college head coaching job at his alma mater, and how it took him from there to taking that job and ultimately being Texas as a Division one program in the n c A Tournament, and then and then ultimately leaving and getting a UTEP that this is all part of an amazing, amazing journey. Here's part two. So you get the job, Yeah? Is that your alwal water? It's pretty cool? Were they? Were? They good it when you got the chap? No? Okay, so what do you have? But Grant have been there two months? What do you have coming? So Grant recruited some players right, uh in that two months. So so we were able to keep some of those players. Um, and so basically I coached Grant's team, UM that first year. Didn't have time to hire an assistant. I don't know if you know Brian Burton. He's done a little social media stuff. Now, I don't know Brian assistant. Yeah, So I'm Brian Burton was our g A and I know Brian. Yeah, And I know really well, yeah, so I moved Briant up to be assistant coach, and Brian and I were together at Colin County. Small world in it. Yeah yeah, yeah. How much are you making now? So now I'm making about sixty sixty sixty five and you and and you let your wife buy a house, and so we buy a house. Yeah, we buy believe and she thinks that this time, man, we're done, right, Doug for UH for fifty or forty years and we're retiring, raising our family. We've made it. She did her job as when when did did you know? They were going to Vision one? So I had always heard about it, um, over that last year or so. But to be honest, like ah C had always talked that ah C didn't care about athletics at that time, right, Um, they know. And again it was the school run by a preacher always um, and I just didn't think there was any chance. When I go back this third time, the president was the guy that name of Phil Schubert, who's an incredible president, a credible leader, and was a business guy. Right, so it's the first time the school was ran by a business guy, not a preacher, and he was very he I could tell he was serious about to move to Division one, right. Um. They were doing a focus groups, they were doing a bunch of studies. Um. So I heard the rumors, but I really thought it would never happen. Um. I literally found out when everybody else did. Man. We we we literally found out forty eight hours before they had a press conference announcing that we were going to the South and Conference. That's when I found out. Um, okay, so the first year you coached his team. Again, now you have even more experience, but it's not players that you recruited. Now you running, you running emotion? What are you doing? So we ran? Uh? We we we ran some some motion. Um again um, and then we ran a little ball screen motion. A little ball screen motion. We call it open but um, hell every college basketball team runs it now. But basically, you know, two guys in the deep corner, two guys on the wing, right, uh, and slot ball screen and playoffs of it. What are your practices like? Um? I was trying to be steam shilts. Who was who was an old school coach? Right? Um? Really really tough on the players? Um? Hard practices? Uh, completely different than than who I am as a person. Right. Um, I tried to be Steve Shilts right instead of Joe Golden at this time. Um so not in a bad way that I don't mean that, No, no, I it's it's really That's why I asked, because you like you try and kind of find yourself and you know, like heck, I remember, I mean again, this is this is very early, Like you're you're formed really by your dad if he's a coach, and my dad, like I try and to have better sideline to meet and decording to my dad, but it's still not great, you know, and then your high school coach and I played for two really good coaches in high school. I played for two great coaches in college and anyway, and it kind of forms you. But even then, it takes you while of being a head coach before you kind of figure out who you are and what you want to do. Yeah, you know, there's no question. And I learned a lot from from Steve Shields. That's where I learned basketball work, ethic, grinding, adversity. Um, and I was just trying to be I mean, he was a hell of a coach and I was trying to be him, and um it wasn't working. I mean our first two years we were okay, we we we we did some things that hadn't been done around there in a long time, with some wins and some different things, but we were were still weren't any good, right um and and uh I looking back on it, you know you laugh now with what you know, right, But but um, you know I was. I thought I had all the answers as a young coach, I wouldn't want to listen to other people. And um, I was just trying to take basically the little rock you know model and implemented Athlene Christian. How many people were coming to the movie center at that time? Oh man, we were lucky, honestly, Doug to have a hundred hundred, two hundred people at a game. So then how did you turn? So? Then we So then we go Division one, right and the first of your first Division one game is against two to transition. The first transition year, I don't even remember, man, that's the hell of con need to go back and look at that. I know this our first year we went on a span. We played Duquesne, Maryland, Iowa UM Vavior TCU UM. We won our first Division one game in February one at the buzzer. Parker Wentz. One of our guards hit a shot at the buzzer and they and they called, They called goldtending on it. Man, So win the game, gold tending. We celebrated. Let we won the national championship. Man, we went crazy. Um, we we we we we We didn't have good enough players. Office. I mean, think about this, man, when you go transition to D two to D one, you can't play in the postseason for four years, No n c A tournament, nothing, no n I T. You can play in the c B I or c I T if you finished above five. Um, your first Division one game was Duquesne, says, So that was that year. That was two thousand, third team, Yes, that was it. Okay, you lost the Duquane by nineteen we played, Yeah, you lost the same Bonda venture by Hey you ever played there? No, but I heard it's awesome, Ryan Center. Here's here's my here's my same bondament story that I got from friend McCaffrey who he recruited me to Notre Dame. So I never forget this one. So Money Williams, do you remember Monty missed like a year and a half basketball with the heart, with heart issue. It was after after the len bias thing, or maybe the hand gallther thing. Everybody's already getting tested for the hard issue stuff, and he had some some irregularity in his heart beat. His first game back was at St. Bonaventure. That's Ryan Center, and right before tip off, you know, they do the intros or whatever, and they're taking off their sweats to get ready to the student section, which was supposely vicious back in the day. I don't know if they were like that. They go, Hey, Monny b B B. You're like, well, that's that's terrible, and you got it right. You're like, it's an incredible place. Holy shit, I will be to your one oh three to forty one. Hey, so hell of a story on that too, Doug. And by the way, that guy spent it at St. Bonaventu can coach damn good coach. Uh, but we're gonna play fran And and your boy I don't know, fran Uh. You you remind him when you talk to him again. That's when they had gamble and all these guys they're up like fifty on us and he's still pressing us with like a minute a minute to have to go on again. Why are you pressing hell if I know, man, and just beating us as bad as you can beat us. We get to the airport the next morning and we're flying out and this old couple had to be in their their eighties, uh, late eighties, comes up to me and she said, hey, aren't you the head coach at Avelene Christian I said, yesterday, and I am. And she said, well, me and whatever her husband's name to say. His name was Rick, right, she said, me and my husband Rick, we were at the game last night. We're we're season ticket holders for Iowa and we just wanted to let you know that we're gonna keep you in our prayers all year. That's amazing, that's that's amazing. Your first tickets I've ever taken, man, was right there in Iowa. Man, I'll never play Iowa again. I'll never go back to whatever that damn city, Iwa City or whatever. I'll never go Harvara Hawkeye, yeah, Hawkeye, Um you yeah you did, you, yeah, you did. Your Your first vision one win was it was Houston, well years a central arc when one when we played Maryland really good right before the Iowa game and we were actually up on Maryland. Um, what screwed us for the Iowa game? Because then Fran play put that game tape in right, showed his team and um, they freaking bliss us. But we were bad. We were bad that we had a bunch of good dudes. Man, they played hard. Um, but you know, we had a bunch of guys that had no Division one offers. They were at h U for a reason, you know, no question, no question, Um what is it? The next the next year, you lost nineteen in a row. Yeah, so we go from four wins to eight wins to that third year, we go we win our last we win our last game at Incarnate Word to finish fifteen and fifteen on the year. Which but but I want, I want to get to that one second. But just help help me with this, okay, because I really struggled emotionally. We're losing. When I was in Notre Dame, I didn't know how to lose. Yep, I've never been. I was in a good high school program. We didn't lose, right, a good AU team, Like, we didn't freaking lose. I'm not a great loser now, but that really taught me kind of how to lose. Yeah, even then it motivated me, like, and look, you weren't great when you played in college, but I guarantee every team you probably coached after that was at least above five. What what is that? How do you handle that when you come home? How do you handle it with the players you know? Had ever gone through man um transition. It's the hardest thing. I was like, Yeah, I went in high school, we weren't any good at ah, like I told you, as a player, but the last two years we were. It's it's the hardest thing. Man. I struggled with it. I've never lost before. I wasn't a bad dad or a bad I was, but I was not happy at home. I wasn't happy coaching UM those first couple of years of the transition. But but but uh, here, here's what I've always wanted, Doug. I wanted I want a fair shake in the fight, right, And when you're at that level and you're going through transition, you're playing team said you it ain't fair, right, I mean, we we got no chance, um, And that was always frustrating to it. It was challenging and and the one side of it, early on, you're like, you take it as a competitor like you said you were. You take it as I'm gonna take this and I'm gonna go beat him, and he's got that right, um. And it challenges as the coach to come up with game plans in different ways to be competitive and try to win. But at the end of the day, we just weren't good enough um to win those games. And I struggled with that. Man. I struggled with that a lot. UM. I wouldn't never say I became complacent to losing. But it was hard, man, because you had a team of guys that were giving us everything they had. They were trying their best, um, So it's hard to ridicule them or be mad at them, um. And you had to keep them positive and keep them upbeat and keep them playing hard. Um. So it was challenging, man, it was it. It was the most challenging thing, um that I've ever ever been through. M hm um. Okay, So then obviously you turned it in year three. Yeah, we get a great freshman recruiting class. We got named Jalen Franklin, um from Little Rock, Jaren Lewis from Florida. Um, we gotta did kid named Gilani Friday. We got a kid from rock Morton named Hayden Farquar than the big seven foot or Colton. We we get all we we get, we get, we get a group of freshmen that we can build with. We finally got some real players. So how but but how I mean, like, look, man, you got a good personality? Started like crazy, Man, we just I mean again, like we did the other night on that Christmas trip, driving ten hours, we were sleeping in the car duck. We were driving around. Man, we were trying to find any kid. At this point we could sell a high school kid that for two years he couldn't play postseason, but the next two we could. Right, So like you're you're gonna play every year? We finished like you know you the postseason became a part of that process in recruiting for those kids at some point in time their career. Um. So that made it a little bit better was the was the church element of it better with the parents that actually help you with some parents that hey we had, Yeah, absolutely, you find an instrum recruiting, right, you're trying to find a guy that comes from a background like that. Absolutely, How did you get a kid to go to buy into the idea of Abilene, Like where's Abilene? Yeah, I mean it was tough. Now we'll say that's man. It's a beautiful campus, unbelievable campus, beautiful people. So if you could get them there, right, Um, they liked it, right. They liked the small town field, they liked the small campus side. Uh. The president would meet with recruits, right Um. The a d Would meet with the recruits, so that they liked a bunch of it if we could ever get them there. The hard part was getting them there, right Uh, to convince them to come on a visit. But we were fortunate, Like Jaalen Franklin. We found him in the back gym man at one of the Dallas AU terms. Nobody was watching him in the back gym uh and ends up being a player of the year, you know in the South and Conference. We're just finding guys, that's the story, right, Like all these guys are what's the his name and he's a Dallas kid. Um, he's with the Celtics. Now he went to Vandy Luca Cornett. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Luke Luke Cornett. So like, um, um they told the Vanderbilt guys told me, like we we went to we went to a gym. He was like he was an unsigned senior and he was playing and I'm not sure if he was playing an unsigned senior event and he's just like a seven footer and you know, super raw, good grades whatever. But they like randomly showed up like early for a game and saw him playing and found out he had grades and started recruiting like he's he's in the NBA. It's it's amazing. Sometimes there's luck. Sometimes it's like like I said, the ability to eval you say, it's a gift, it's a skill, you know, like to your point. And then there's luck, absolutely, and then there's you know, sometimes in recruiting, the longer you're in this business, there's the guy you recruit forever. It's the hardest guy to get and he ended up not being a good player at all. And then there's the one you get because you know, something happened. Nowhere else to go sometimes right here for one month or two weeks and he signs and he ends up being the you know, a hell of a player. So it's recruiting, Um, it happens. But that class was special and we won the game, and that carry word to go to fifteen and fifteen, which qualifies for the c I t or CB I. And we played Drake UM and Drake was coached by the guy that's at Colorado State. Now hell of a coach, yah, UM and yeah, and he actually took the Colorado State job. We lost to him in overtime. Doug d had a really good team, UM, and we lost to him in overtime. But that was the first time our guys got into experience postseason player, right, we win or go home? UM. And that that really, Uh, that really helped our program. Elevating our program. We knew at that point, man, we were turning the corner. UM. And it set us up for the you know, the first year that we could be out of the transition. Man, it set up for that year. That was year four. We went to c I t R c B I. Year five was the first year we could go to the n c A tournament. And Uh, you got this, you probably got that pulled up. But I think we want twenty five. We had a hell of the team, man, we want twenty seven games. UM go to the conference tournament for the first time. UM. We got to double by because we finished in second place. UM. Sam Houston got upset Jason Hoots team. That's another great coach, Jason Houghton. Um. They got upset in the semifinals by New Orleans and uh. We beat New Orleans uh in the in the championship game. UH we beat Slash my good buddy at New Orleans and um. So we've never been in the conference tournament ever. We get there and we went on both. Right. So we go to and oh we go the nst A Tournament and our our school is going Bananza's right, they're going crazy. It's year one of the it's our first year to ever be eligible for it. And we and we make the instate tournament. So here the story, man, it couldn't be better. Right, We're the worst Division one team in the country four years ago, and now we're going to the n c A Tournament and we draw Kentucky. Right. But by the way, I want to I want to point out to you that year Chris Beard beat the ship out of you. That was that wasn't very nice to him Rush, so he beat the ship out of me, I want to say twice. The third time we had him beat and and and he doesn't make a field goal the last ten minutes of the game, Doug, was when Colver and Matt Mooney's team, right, he didn't make a field goal the last ten minutes. No, no, no, Culver's team beat the craft out of this. Matt Mooney it was it was Nevins no next year, no no, no, no, no Africa. It was from Georgetown, Matt mcclum's scene. Yes, we had a beat, Doug. They don't score field with the last ten minutes, but they shoot like twenty three throws, right, what your point earlier? Right? They got off the calls. You know, you didn't think you just you gotta check and in. Yeah, he went to the forty nine or something. But we had his ass, man, Um, he'll never admit that, that's a fact. Um. Yeah, yeah, we had though. Man. Yeah, they got and I got, I got, you got everything on this. This deal is amazing. They shot thirty seven free throws. You shot nine. There, you we beat here, We beat Texas sat right on five man or two of fifteen from three he putting some up a guarantee, gave me any better than that scat right there too? A fifteen from three twelve and forty three from the field. You held in the twenty seven point nine percent field goal shooting. Ah you shoot. Uh you shot thirty seven percent six of nine from the freezer line. Uh six and eighteen percentage wise beat him on everything. Okay, Um, you did have twenty turnovers, although turn them over though, I think too. Uh they had sixteen. Yeah Burnett, Marie Burnette, that was like his one big, one decent game there. And Mary Burnett had play well well, he had and at ten from the free of the line, and he had three steals. Yeah, he had the steals and the dunks. Uh. We beat him that, We beat him. We beat him. Uh when they got a shirt seven breath those year nine, that counts as a no question. I I posthumously count that as a as a win on your schedule. Each year we got a little bit closer to him, right, Um, but uh never never could beat him. Um, we got close. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live. But yeah, we go play Kentucky and you can imagine Doug like it's the first time I've ever been in the in state teram it right as a coach our our program, first time ever places going crazy. Um, we were on vacation, man, We got picked it to go play in Jacksonville, Florida against Kentucky. Um, I mean, come on, man, right like we were, we get the police escort to steak and lobster. Um, I mean we could care less about playing Kentucky. Right, We'd already won by going there in Kentucky. Beat the beat the crap out of us. Man. Now that's when I tore that hole in my pants, you know. And I did that to try to release some pressure offer our guys and was hoping they would talk about that. And um that they pounded us. Man. I didn't think we're gonna score. The first media it was it's we have nothing, We have no points and we hating fark bar uh banks in a three. Thank god bank bank three. Um to at least put us on the board. The only chance we had is if they would hand our ball screens right or give us a chance to get the ball moving a little bit. In the very first possession, we ran the middle ball scool to see what they would do, and they switched here right and as soon as they switched it. They stayed in front of our point guard. We knew right then it's gonna be a long night, you know, but nothing we can do, nothing you can do. Just enjoy it. Yeah, we just hate it. And uh, you know, obviously making the n State Tournament was huge, but what normally happens is at that level, you make the turn, you turn around a program, you're out right yeah, uh what what what were the jobs that you turned out? You know what, I really didn't turn anything down that year. Um, I didn't get involved. Really nobody knew who the hell we were, Doug, you know, I mean, we've been so far off, We've never been Division one, never else. One just kind of came out of left field, right and then my, my, my, what do you call your career record? I gave up amount a long time ago. Right, when you go from transition from from D one or D two to D one, you're gonna get your butt kicks. So, uh, you know, my my record at the time was career record was probably got awful. You know, it's still ain't great, even though we've won twenty games like five or six years in a row. Um, we just got our butt kicks. For so long. I got involved a little bit with the lipscom job in Nashville. Um um, I talked to them a little bit from a memory SearchMan correctly. And then there was one other. I can't think with the other there might have been a couple, but I didn't really get get get involved in anything. Um so oh um won a whole lot of movement. I didn't have a whole lot of movement. Then, so the your last team there, Okay, your your last team there? Yeah? Special so yes, but the again, first you go to the tournament. What's that like? Coming back? You know, coming back to the league, come back, trying to do it again? You know again. Most coaches lead because it's so you get more money, but it's so hard to go back and they made it. What was it like that next year? Yeah? It was hard coaching learning Another lesson the coaching ladder or learning, uh, coaching one on one is how do you coach a team now that's had success, it's never had success right now? Now now you're the hunted right not the hunter you know? And um so so how do you coach that? How do you react that we lost that core group of seniors that had taken us from dead last to the insate termament. They graduated. We had a few guys back, um, but they were also different, you know, role players at the time. And then and you know, we had some guys that we have been developing that we that we're gonna have to step in. And so we actually came back that next year and had a hell of a year. We finished in second place, uh to Stephen F. Austin. And that was the COVID year. So we got down to the tournament and COVID hits. Um, so you can't play anything, you know, and then um, you know you come back to that team you're talking about. Um. You know, we had a bunch of guys back. We lost Peyton Ricks, who was was probably our best player the COVID year, our leading score out of Kansas. Hell of a player. Um, we lost him, but we pretty much brought everybody else back, if my memory serves me correctly. So we had a bunch back. We just had lost him, um, and we just had a group at that point, Doug. We we had the program where we wanted it right. It was kind of running itself. You know. We had a great culture. Um. You know, our guys defended at a high level. They got along, We had great relationships with them. They knew how we how we were gonna win games. They believe we could win games. Um was a huge car. We had completely flipped the program around, right, Um, from a program that never thought that would go the instate tournament to a program that expects to go the instate tournament. Right Um? And that group of special man that that group was Yeah, not just because the Texas win just all year. I think if you go back to the stats, somebody told me a year or two ago, Um, right after the season. Um, I mean our margin of victory was like twenty something, right bro, Listen, listen, le let me just for for people who don't like who just parachuted in and saw you beat Texas and then lose to u c l A. Right that I when I when I knew you were gonna come on. I something recalled by memory, like you won your conference tournament championship game by like thirty Yeah. Every other conference tournament championship at that level is a you know, ball in the air. Anybody can win, right. How many times I see Murray State and fucking Belmont, you know, playing double and triple overtime. And the worst thing is usually the team that doesn't deserve to win wins, you know, or the team that doesn't have as good a season. You guys won, I mean you you crushed him, Yeah, crushed him. Yeah. The other part two, which is interesting is and you mentioned Jay Sutin, what a good job he's done, like the rise of Abilene Christian is in the same league as Hooton has done. He's got a really good team this year. And Stephen f was the same time, right with Brad, Like this is all going at the same time. And I know there's a ton of players in the state of Texas. I get it. You know that. That's probably one of the things that speaks to that's really hard to be super competitive consistently in the league when other programs got it going on. Yeah, no doubt. And I remember the first year we went to Vision, when you looked at Sam Houston, right, you looked at Saving he said, there's no way we could ever get to that level, right, no chance? Uh to five? Fast forward four or five six years later, Man, we were beating those guys consistently, right, um and and and not confessions say consistently. I mean, they were beating us too, but we were in the games, right, we were beating them so um and we were in the games. And it's just people, don't. I wish people understood and could live a year at the low major life right and understood the pressure. Reality show the pressure, no question, it would be a hell of a reality show. It's just a pressure. You played all year for three days in March, right, your whole season to and to your point, the best team doesn't know most of the time doesn't win, you know, like it's just that go by and look, I know you won that year you beat and for people, you beat Lamar by two, you beat Nicols State in the championship game by thirty four. Goddamn, take it easy. But the the double bike And sometimes I used to like Big twelve Tournament. The year we had to buy. We lost the Texas the first game as Pender's last win, and then the next two years we had the we we didn't have the buy. I like the better because you get a game against the shitty team, usually Baylor, right man, And I was back with Baylor sh but you gotta you got a game kind of under your belt. And it wasn't until Sunday if you got we got one year, we got the Sunday right that that you were tired. But outside that, like bro one game, you know, one game against Baylor that's not killing you better than practice. And so so you guys did the double bias. That's really really so okay? So what what were you like as a coach then? And maybe even in the now? Really changed? Right, completely changed with that group. Uh years before um and and I started coaching on relationships, right, I started building real relationships these guys, spending time with him, getting to know him off the floor, UM, loving on them, having them over to the house. I'm a high energy guy. UM. I coached with enthusiasm energy. UM, I don't necessarily mother. I don't. I don't mother fl them, you know, and getting their face and threaten them with their life and their scholarship. And that I build relationships. I you know, we have a saying we coach you hard in between the lines and love you harder outside the lines. Uh, just just really built relationships. Got them to build relationships with each other, care about each other. UM. You know a stat that always used to coach shields used to always tell us that like seventy something percent of college basketball games and won in the last four minutes or whatever. Um, And that always stuck with me in the sense said, Okay, so now you're in a one or two or three possession game with four minutes to go, who wins that game? Well, to me, the easy answer is a team with the best players, right, or a team a point guard you put the ball in his hands and go win your game. But to me, it's always been now a team that that has real relationships and believes in each other, right, Like, so when you're in that media time out with four minutes to go and I'm looking at you, Doug, and you and I we got a real relationship, right, it means something. We're gonna have a hell of a lot better chance to win that game than the other team, who you know, they could give two ships about their teammate. They just want to know how many points they score, right, or how many shots for getting And so we really spent time on building the culture and that we also had an idea of defense. Um, what was your what was your techno? What's your technique for building relations and ship? Kid? At the time with him and I meet with him in then at nights in the morning at practice. UM, I make sure our gas communicate with me, our strength coach, to our trainers who they spend time with, what's going on in their lives, so I can stay on top of it as well. Um, and uh, I've learned this. Man, when guys are going through injuries, you know, they're by themselves, they're lonely. That's always always a great time to go show them, you know that you care about them, not just when they're playing the just different times like that, just just truly, um, you know, trying to show them that I care about them more than basketball. We we started doing stuff on road trips when we would take him to the beach, uh, you know, or we would go have fun, right, or we go do things. UM got creative on how we would do basketball stuff. But we work hard, duck. I mean you know how we played defensively, right, it ain't easy. We get after it. Um, we fly around, so we demand a lot on the floor from them. Um. But at the same time, UM, we just spend a lot of time, a lot of a lot of time on that relationship piece. Man. Um. The Texas game, Okay, So it's COVID year. But they just came off a big twelve championship, right, and they're good. You know they're good. They got pros and they're good. And the other part to it that one would think would be, uh that of all guys that would know that would understand, what's how you guys were playing, it would be Shaka, right, it would be undersized guys. Guys to get after it really tenacious, Like you would think, like, man, that's this is a layup for them, because that's the style that he knows. It's not not the Havoc style, but in terms of smaller players getting after defensively up the line. And yet they just they could never get in a rhythm. That was the thing that could. They could just never get even when the game was close and they probably felt like they should, they would never really looked like a well oiled machine. What what do you remember about the prep for the game? Yeah? I remember getting there, um, and then we we thought we thought we were gonna be a thirteen seat honestly, and we thought we were gonna draw Oakland State. Um. And then we get the fourteen and get Texas, and I knew right away the way. Our guys now it was COVID were at the hotel. I get it. It It was different than being there the first time and had a pep rally right in front of like three people, four or whatever. It was an avalan the first time. We made it. We're in there by ourselves in the ballroom. Um, you've been there, man, I mean like, you get it. Man, Like Kansas has double ballrooms, triple ballrooms, arkansass across. We're in this small little closet. I wouldn't call it a damn ballroom. Um. We got our chairs lined up. They introduced Texas, and our guys didn't go crazy, right. It wasn't a celebration or going nuts or had like. It was like business like right. It was like, okay, it's Texas, man, let's go Um. I knew. Um. We we introduced our our Texas to our players. The next day, I think we had a twenty four hour COVID break. After that, we couldn't see anybody. We were locked in our rooms for twenty four hours. And then we got out. And when we got out, when we had the game plan obviously at that point ready we convinced our guys that Texas Tech had beat him twice and we we had Tech. That was the year you and I talked about earlier, Right, We had Tech beat Um and so we knew we could play with him. Um. You know, we convinced our guys and that I thought it was good. In the Texas stroying team, we had a few, but not many. And that was a good thing too, right, because they didn't know who the hell Texas was, right, we can we're both because like I remember Decimation used to do, he fucking hated Texas. He hated everything about Texas and he made himself work. Now, we never won in Austin and he would just he to this day like he fucking hates it, like you can't talk to him about it. Right, So, but some kids are like fuck Texas. You know, I grew up in Texas. They don't recruit me. I just didn't know if you had any of that. No, we might have had a couple trying to think, but it wasn't uh uh. It was more our staff right, like chip on our shoulder, right, like to what we were talking about earlier. Man, this was our opportunity and we knew when we put in the first tape to play with Texas. We did. Man, Uh, the way they ran the ball screens, we knew that they would they would move the basketball, but we would fly around, you know, on that and that's the kind of game we want. We we couldn't have him. I saw us um got coming off the Big Twelve championship game. They'd want it. That was that That helped us, right, Um with that, Um one of the biggest keys was Coleman, their point guard. He was obviously really, really good. He got m VP of the Big Twelve tournament. His memory Servesman correctly, and he but he was an unselfish kid, right. He liked to get to everybody involved. He didn't like You could tell he didn't like all the attention. So we knew earlier he would come out and try to share the basketball bunch, right. We thought if he when he ever decided to take over and just I saw us in the middle of floor one on one, we'd we'd be in trouble. And he didn't do that really until about the last four or five minutes, you know, Um, and we knew as long as they were moving the ball, we could fly around and rotate. The question was how the hell score, right, Lincoln size until we score enough points. Um. You know, we we felt like we could guard it. Two two was score enough until we rebound the baths ball. Um, and then we go down at halftime. Um, but we believe huh what say? Yeah? I just said, Hey, the games at we wanted we were down like three or four, right was right there. I said, Man, we just gotta have to eat some shots. Um, you know, we we gotta continue to take care of the basketball. This tone of voice or more animated. Uh, I was playing more animated. Yeah, I mean I again, you know, just trying to get them they believed at that point and that they believed they could win. But we were all animated and that we didn't make a whole lot of adjustments. The game plan was going to kind of the way we wanted it. Um. We got them out that they pressed us early. We got them out. We had a plan to attack their press, and we aggressive on it. Um, and we got them out of the press. Um. So now it became a half court game. Um. And you know here some people get on us offensively, or they've gotten on me over my time. Um, you know about offensively, you know, challenging at times and running two games with different So but here's what people are when you when you don't have the players that they have right in the talent NBA, you got us slow the game down. Right. Uh, If I'm the head coach of Texas one day and I'm coaching all Americans and McDonald, I'm gonna run into you want to play? This has been like this has honestly been my thing with coaching with like Syracuse, right is how they play defensively, playing a two three zone. It allows the other team to determine the pace of the game. Hold the ball against his own you can not hold the whatever you want. And they point is that I've tried to talk to like I tried to talk to Church Baham like he has a good press and he's at times he's had a good team, not this year, the last couple of years, but he had a good team for pressing. But the only panic press when they're down like fifteen late, right, Like, hey man, you need to force your will put play some And it's the same idea from the better of the team. The more possessions you want because you've got better players, the more stronger like that, that that is a winning The worst of team. The slower you play, you control the game, you know, you make them think about it. And that's really what happened, is that you've got into it. You got him into a dog fight, and they want to know. Part where your guys are like this is when did you when did you know? You remember? Looking up again? I knew right when we put in the game tage or that we could play with him. I knew about the the ten minute mark of the game in the second half and we had to lead. Um, I don't remember, Doug, it's say six seven, you know. We we had stressed that maybe memory Seargeman correctly up to eight. At one time I called, I told our guys, we gotta get to the four minute mark, right, If we get to the four minute TV time out, all the pressure will be on them, um, you know. And then were and then we're gonna go. We're gonna play. But I we went to our delay game about the ten minute mark just to get to the four minute mark, right, Um, And we probably went to the delay game too quick, right. Um. That's one of regret I have a little bit on it is we probably should should have kind of continued on a little bit that's out old Texas High School of Basketball, no shot clock bullshit you were trying to do. At this point, I was like, man, we're gonna get to the four minute market, a chance to beat Texas, right, um. And so the delay game and we quit scoring. Um, and so they get back in and but we still had to lead. We're still controlling it, um, and we believe know and uh at the four minute market and we told we'd be told a story back the day about me being at the casino with Brett Tanner, our assistant, and I like to have a few cocktails at the casino and that get helps by gambling, right, courageous gambler. Uh. And I've I've got my butt kicked a few times. And so I got my butt kicked on the roulette table crafts table. I try to go get my button money at the roulette table back and uh, you always been on black, right. So I gave my money. The Brett had been holding like two hundred dollars for me to make sure I had enough money to get home. And I said, hey, you put all that money on black, I'm gonna turn around and walk around. I'm not gonna watch it. And and Tanner didn't. Man, Tanner only put half my money on black and it hit Black, right, So I gave Tanner. I was pissed about Tresa. You should have bet two hundred bucks. You only bet a hundred. Then you didn't have confidence, you didn't believe. So the whole week we're telling them the story. So at the four minute media, I said, boys, we're putting it all on Black now. Man, screw Brett Tanner right and all everybody. And they loved it. They started laughing and kind of broke could broke it up a little bit. And the pressure and um, we we we played it perfect, man to the bone. We turned it over twice. We got a five second count, and we turned it over late in the backcourt, which allowed them to get back in it. And then and then it's like Andrew Jones hits the three, and then like it, it hits you in your mind. Man, It's like, okay, dude, like Texas is gonna beat us. Andrew Jones hit the three. He deserves you, right, he just beat cancer for God's sake. Right, It's the hell of a story, dude, Like you know, I mean, that's that's shot supposed to go in right, I mean, and and you're almost somewhat happy for him, right, like for all the what the kids been through. Um, And then it's our ball. So now we're down one for the first time and literally probably twelve minutes. Right, we've been controlling the game. You would think the team would say, Okay, it's over, right, I mean, we had it and we screwed it up. And UM, we've been working on this play and I think we called Kansas for pistol. We've been working on it all year, UM as a late game play, UM, and how much time? So there's like I want to say, ten ten seconds twelves from there. So we had to play put in. UM. But it was the wrong play to run against Texas because they bought some ball screens and some crackbacks, so we knew they would switch everything right, Uh, and we had a small point guard and it wasn't gonna work, and so we drew up another play. And then the guys looked at me the time out like I was crazy. They're like, coach Man, we've been working on Kansas or pistol. I think it's pistol. We've been working on pistol all year. We're gonna run pistol. And so you know, something goes back. And you learned this in coaching and way back in the day. You trust your players, right at some point in time, right, Um, And so I was like, you, damn right, We're gonna run pistol. What the hell was I thinking? Right, We've been working on all year for this moment, let's go run pistol. And uh again, wrong play for probably the that moment that we run pistol, they switch everything. We can't throw it back on the crack back and Reggie Miller, our point guards stuck on a lottery pick, you know, on the lottery picks seven foot tall. Reggie's like five ten. Um goes in there and throws it up on the rim and Joe Pleasant goes and gets the rebound and gets foul. Right, so the play worked. You know, don't believe belief in your players and and and having your players belief in something, and um, you know we're no different than how you were coaching. You know, you get a shut up on a ram and you sitting five guys to glass right at that point, Um, any any shutting one oh one hers shot doesn't beat you. The second shot always does and and and you hear it and you coach it, and it happened. And then you got Joe. And Joe was like a low sixties free throw shooter. Um, but I knew those were going in right. And wait, so you're sick you're standing there? Okay, it's an empty, empty arena, right, Um? You remember you do you think you're praying, you're saying something of yourself? Are you looking? You're not looking to our point? Earlier? The ref called it and I was actually, you know, I mean it was a foul, right, it was a foul, And I was glad the ref called it because they didn't call it at Uh we played tech right offensive at Techi offensive. Yeah, those ships, no doubt. But and then I really knew he was gonna make him. Man, Joe Pleastant was a heart, heart working, one of the hardest working, if not one of the the hardest working guy. So he came from Blue Valley Northwest High School in Kansas, unbelievable powerhouse. Um had a hell of a high school coach. Um, damn good high school coach. Was coach really really well and again nobody was a creem evaluation man. And then Joe just developed man, and and Joe came from his freshman year. We didn't play a bunch to a software year, played a little bit to a first team All League player as a senior. And um, I just knew how much how hard he worked. Um he spent time on his craft. I just knew those were going in, you know, I knew him. And uh, he made the first one, and then and then the second one goes in, and obviously they called time out and they got the ball full court. Um, and they throw it in and we win the game, and of course we go we lose her. My funny, great, great story. And I lose my mind for like five seconds time. I mean, you know, Beard beat Per new he wouldn't kiss the n c A logo. I didn't go that crazy. I jumped up and down and hugged on in her and I was running over to see my wife and the fans up in the we played the football stateup so held their way up there right, um, And I lose my mind for like five seconds, and then I realized, damn, I gotta go shake Shock his hand right a little freaking respect. And I'll say this, man, I'll never will forget this and the lesson I learned because it will happen to all of us, have we coach long enough. Uh, Shack has stayed around. He was waiting for me at half court, and he shook my hand and told me as the shockun, I'm sorry man, I lost my mind and said, no, you should lose your mind. I lost my mind about six years ago at VCU. Right. Enjoy the moment, man, It's an unbelievable story. I've been there, I lived it. I wish you the best of luck. Man. You guys deserve to win. And I what what the ultimate compliment and respect for a coach? Right well, probably one of his toughest defeats of his career, it would have been easy for him to follow his team to the locker room, right Uh. And he stayed around, uh to say those things, and he shaked my hand and I don't know, shock up. We haven't spoken since that game, um, but I've got the utmost respect for him. And I learned a lot about coaching use because again, if we're gonna coach long enough, that's going to happened to me someday, right, And I hope I learned a lesson from Shaka and I'm there to congratulate, you know, a young coach on on a career win like that. Beard goes to Texas And I'm sure you've thought about this in the past couple of the past week because Algie goes with him. He was a head coach, right, all those guys were head coaches. Yeah, I'm sure he asked you. What was the conversation, like, yeah, tough time in my career, right, because you've got a lot going on. Do you know, do you go to Texas? Do you know, as an assistant again, which you haven't been an assistant a long time. Do you, um, stay at Avelen Christian a program you've built so much, you know, equity in and blood, sweat and tears building it to that point, um? Or do you get involved in the job market a little bit? I I actually switched agents that night of the wind um. I uh, you know obviously got to know Brad Underwood really well, and oh yeah, that's amazing. You get back to Hotell, you like you're fired, Brent, just contract act. She was up with my other agent and so and then that was hard for me because I'm a loyal person and that agent had been with me when I was nobody right, Um, but my contract had actually expired and so, um, I was really didn't have an agent. Um and uh, but I did call him and told him that I was gonna switch. I don't yeah, I don't know who. The guy has just managed. The guys guys watching the game, going yes, we're gonna get paid finally, finally been I've been on this mule damn years. And the next guys like, way to go, can you guys says I'm gonna call this school, and yeah, I listen, we got to talk. One of the one of the hardest things I ever had to do was called called my my path. The agent had been with me. Um it was hard, you know, phone with all are like that are never fun um awful, but but but you know, um so so I mean, how how much did you think about the beard thing? Yeah? Not much, honestly. I mean we just felt like, uh, you know the time, it wasn't right now, and and I I convinced myself at this time I wanted to be a head coach, right and I wanted to climb the ladder and I could do it, and um, you know, to be really honest, with you. I want to go out right to kick beards. But you know, uh, you know beside your wife's like, we're an that believe Christian were good. When moving, wife like was like, yeah, let's stay here. We can coach here forever. And you know there are a lot of momentum athlete Chris. At that time, we just built are they just built a fifty sixty million dollar brand new basketball here here. I mean, here's the story. Six You know, they didn't care about basketball, and then six years later they're building a sixty million dollar arena. Right. Um, so they're building a new back basketball arena, a new practice facility. Um. Unbelievable. President Um that that cared about basketball, was gonna take care of my family, myself, my staff, that they were gonna give us an incredible deal there at Avelene Christian to State. Um. But then the job market head and some jobs opened up. And obviously when when he took Rodney, Um, you know this job, I knew it was gonna open up. Um. You know I kind of knew Rodney was leaving before a lot of people, you know, with my relationship of Beard and and being involved in it, and um, it just made a lot of sense, man, you know, I mean, I'm from Texas. You tap at the time. Man. If people people don't know you tap, people have forgotten about it. Man. But you know, there was a point in time where Billy Gillespie, Doc Sather, and Tony Barbie, uh came through here and it was one of the best mid major jobs in the program, you know. I mean when when he had Philly Rivera. I did a bunch of their games. They were they were damn good, really really good, damn good and good good basketball fans, you know, greats. They care about batball. Uh. You know Tim Floyd came after Barbie. You don't just uh it's a basketball Um that they care. They care about basketball. I mean we still put eight or nine thousand in our games right now, you know. Um, and we're not winning at the level that we you know, to to have that, to be honest with you, we're building this program back. But um that they care, they love basketball, and UM. You know, there was obviously a lot of good candidates for the job, but we were fortunate and lucky to get offered the job. And then I've never done this before, Doug, you know, because you go back to the first time with the h U job, I was the second guy. And then you know they hired Grant first and no president and here we are, uh, you know, we get the job offering. You gotta make a decision quickly, right, Um do you state Abilene or or do you get on the jet? And the next morning and had to to El Paso and and become the head coach at you TEP and so UM, you know a lot of conversations with my wife and I and and um you know, obviously our kids. We got them involved a little bit they were young, but um, and then just made a family decision that we were gonna chase the dream, right Um. UTEP was a great basketball job, and we wanted to coach at a place that cared about basketball, and we thought it was a great opportunity to build a program back. Um and just uh you know, decided that it was time to leave Abilene, get out of our comfort zone a little bit and and try to climb the ladder. What should like to tell the kids? Tell the players? Uh, the hardest thing was telling the players. It was hard. Jeff Goodman and and UM a couple others. I think we're close to breaking it and I knew it and and but we hadn't signed. Again. I've never been through this man. But like they offered me the the the years and the job. Uh. Um. I was ready to sign right, but then lawyers get involved, right and agents get involved, and it takes time. Um and and I didn't want it to get out without my players knowing, so I said, screw it, man I I I knew it was about to get out. So I went and met with our president and just thanked him. Um. And of course it wasn't a fun conversation. He continued to work on me to stay there, but I knew it was time to go. Um. I went and told my a d and then I called a team meeting and a lot of tears. Man. You know, to be quite honest with you man, very very emotional. Um. But also challenged them and to to get Brett Tayner the head job who was our assistant coach. Um. I stuck to my word, man, I I we had a heart to heart, We cried, we laughed. Um. I told him to to you know, support Brett for the job. And then I told him I wasn't taking any of them with me in the portal. You know, they were they were all gonna stay here with Brett because I wanted Brett to have success right year one. I didn't want to take the whole team and make Brett start over. Um, And so just made it non negotiable right then that we weren't gonna have any conversations about they were gonna stay at Abilene and I was gonna move on. And UM, it was tough, man, really really hard um to tell them. Um, you know that in the COVID deal, we're probably the two toughest times in coaching. Right. The COVID year was tough because those seniors couldn't put on the jersey. You know, usually you lose the game, right your last time with the jersey on, and it's it's it's it's okay, you lost, right, Um, you get you at least got to play the game. But the COVID year, we didn't get to play a game, right. Those senior season was just over without a game. And that was really really hard, that team meeting, um, and then this one when I left to go to Utah. But I wanted them to hear from me. I didn't want them to hear on on Twitter or here on the internet. I wanted them to hear from me, And of course my agent was told me not to do it, um and saying, you can't do that, you can't but uh in the in the a d here at Utah really didn't want me to do that, but I wasn't gonna have it any other way. Right, those guys were family and we built real relationships, and they were gonna hear from me. But I also think they were happy for me, right at the same time, they knew what we've gone through and what we've built there, and so I think they were happy for me to have the opportunities go in the same league. You know, it's not like it's definitely not a lateral move. A very different, very different job though, right, I mean to go to completely different, small private school to go into a gigantic public institution that is borders Mexico. And you know, English is the second language in many parts of El Paso, and I like El Paso. I dig I dig h and age car wash and the whole vibe of the place school, but it is a gig I mean, you're you're going to a completely different So for them it had to be you know, obviously there's a financial aspect to it and just a different league, so they you know, they can't really see it and feel it. Um what what now? You've You've done this a bunch in terms of moving and changing and um, what is it like though? To leave Abilene a third time? It feels like that's the last last. Yeah, So it was hard, you know, and I haven't been back, um and and uh a little bit. I just had to separate from it, right. Um. You know, they had all the twities to go back and see some friends, and there's time when you can. But my family almost went back the other night when you were driving. When I did go through, actually I went through Avelen. Yeah, I went through up the highway, but I didn't stop. Um, And even that's gotta be weird. Al it's weird. Yeah, I drove through and I looked around and there's different buildings, right, even since I've been gone on almost a year and a half. There was a couple of new hotels and but yeah, I was weird driving through. And uh. The irony of it is when you turn off to go to our house on the Loop and Aveline, there's a sign that says al Passo right there. So I drove past that sign for ten years, right and never even thought about it, right and then here and then this time when I drove past it, I thought about it, right, like we're going to We're going back to our new home. But um, yeah, it's been I've had to completely separate myself. I love Avelen Christian, right, I mean I was there to your point three times. I spent Avilen Christian took me from a little boy to a man man, to be quite honest with you, right, I got through an eighteen and left when I was forty forty five, forty you know, forty five, So um, you know it raised me. I will always love Avid and Christian. I'm forever in debt to Avling Christian and the opportunity that gave me. Um, I'm proud of what we did there. There'll be a time to go back, you know, one day and and um, you know, celebrate all that. We got a lot of great players that will get put in the Hall of Fame. Um, it's gonna be fun to go back, um and tell those stories. But I just had to completely separate myself, right and and and get away from it because otherwise it would be too difficult. How did your team this year? I like our team, man, you know, we we lost ten guys off the portal. Um. You know, Sue A. Boom is a savior now really really yeah, Kante Emphis Titus is at Northwestern um JB being and our point guard went pro. So we we we we lost some really good players. We started completely over. But you know we're eight and four. We lost a tough game to Kent State the other night at one point game. Kent State is really good in state. They win a game. So we're getting better, man, we're getting tougher. Um, we're starting to figure each other out. We just played the conference. Roo say, Doug might it's a really good league. It might be as good as it's ever been. They say, you know, it's just it's just really really good basketball teams here, and the good teams are leaving to go to the American you know which they're they're loading up. Um, what is what is it like? Like Beard, when I've talked to him about it, he's like, look, I did I was in the a B A I played in the a BA, so I know what he's talking about. He's like minor league basketball, really you know, prepares you for this in terms of in terms of your your roster turnover. Yeah, but what's that like for you to have a roster turnover where you got ten new dudes. Yeah, it's really different from me because I didn't really spend a whole lot of time in Ico like those guys did. Um and I didn't have the roster turn we built habling Christian development players. Right, can you can you still do it? I'm gonna say yes, you know, but but but uh it's difficult, doug right, Like, and I think it's like I think there's gonna be some coaches out there now. They're gonna get branded when they're when their guys leave, and they're gonna be like, well, he didn't have a relationship with him right here, he he they didn't like him, And then you're gonna have guys that, uh, you know, you have relationships like sue a boom uh sul boom. And I became really really close last year. Man. His car was in my parking lot for two months, uh, in my in in my driveway because it quit working when he was at his avier, right, I mean I was taking care of him. Right, we still talk. Uh we still it was probably that's probably DNS a violation too, but um, you know we we we talked life and I'm so I'm happy for him, Doug. Right, like he graduated from you temp, he had a hell of a career here. He helped me in year one win twenty games. I would like to think we helped him a little bit, you know, defensively and made him tougher. Um, but he had an opportunity to go make some and I owe money, go play in the Big East, and go play on national television every night, and go prove himself against the best. Right. Um. I supported that a right. Um. I was proud for him. I'm happy for him, and so some other people outside I think, oh, well sul Boom didn't want to play for Joe, But that had nothing to do with it, right uh. Um, we have a real relationship. I care for the kid. He had a great opportunity not supporting you know, um, And so that that's what's tough at this level is I think, you know, we're gonna develop kids and then they're gonna have opportunities because at the end of the day, Um, we're gonna have some n I O money here at you Tap. We've got some great boosters and donors and and some great companies here in town that want to help our kids. Um. And and so we're gonna have some opportunities. Um uh we just started some things, but we're never gonna have power five, right. I mean that that it is what it is. And so UM, I think you can develop them. I think there's certain kids that will stay at this level and continue to have success. I think there's other kids that want to go chase it and go to go to a higher level. I think every story, every kid is gonna be different. It's definitely gonna be tougher to build teams like that. Um. The one part that I it's exhausting for me is um, you know again we're relationship builders, right, and so you like to have five or six guys because sometimes we coach these kids on the relationship piece and they're like coach, they don't believe it's the first couple of months, right, they think you're fake, right, you're full ship, you're just doing it, you know, Uh, play a game with them. But then they realize it's real when you have five or six or seven or eight guys back, they can tell those other guys that it's real, right, But when you don't have got ten new guys, it makes it really difficult to do. So the relationship piece is hard, um because you know, you gotta build it quick over the summer and the fall. Um. That's so I think we're all having to adjust to that. And then uh, you know, just taking a team of of guys and and and molding them, you know, into a team really really quickly. Um is challenging as well. How's your Spanish? It's game better, getting better. I'll tell you what though, man, I mean, there's Doug. I say this all the time, and they ain't no bullshit, man Like, I love this place, man Like, they're they're the nicest people out here right Like Like it's because they're out here and they want people to love this place, right because they want you to leave one day people not just I'm talking about me as a coach, but residents and to leaving and talk good about this place. Right So that unbelievably well, to mean, the food is great, they sport basketball, They support my family. It is funny though that I'm sure growing up in Texas you thought Texas. Mex was Mexican food forever. Then then you get them passed like, yeah, no, that's not at all how we do it. Oh and I thought I grew up in West Texas, right, because I grew up in Midland. We call West Texas. If you grew up in Middland, you're from West Texas. Even in Avle and we said, we're in West Texas, and people out here like, bullshit, this is West Texas, right, This is as far as west as you get. So now I'm truly in West Texas right now, man. And um, it's just great people. Man that they they uh again, the supports unbelievable. Uh. That they love defense out here, right they the coach Haskins sale, the toughness, that's how these people are out here. They have a chip on their shoulder. And and we're getting a team like that. They they're really starting to like watch play and support and they know good basketball. It's kind of a Coach Sutton teams o Clova State. They knew when y'all, when y'all played good, They knew when you played that, right, I mean they get they get back basketball, and um, it's fun to be in a place like that. Um. Okay, last couple of things. I you've been incredible with your time our Southland players because you're close with all those coaches. Are they off limiting the portal to you portal? Yeah? Yeah, the honeymoon's over now. Man, it's uh. Um favorite random Jim arena that you've coached him. Oh wow. Virgin Islands the exhibition tour. That's prettiest place I've ever been, Man, Virgin Islands. Uh, horrible basketball, but incredible place. Uh, I like it. We played the Dow Little We played at the Doolittle Rex Center when we were D two at h U. When you go back to Vegas one day, man, go by the doo little Rex Center. Man, you got a swimming pool on one side and the Rex Center. And that was one of the best D two tournaments in the country because you could go to Vegas all you guys. You guys were playing in the MGM back of the day. We were playing the doo Little Rex Center. Man. Didn't who played at the rec Center when they're redoing their gym was the TCU. I think they played Bablin Christian. We played in the tennis courts to take tennis courts the last three years, whether they were doing our gym Oh yeah, bro, when you guys went to the Nst Turn and b Texas, ye're playing? We played. We played in the indoor tennis court that we put down a floor in the indoor tennis court. That's where we played our home games last two years. As true story, man, that's amazing. It's said like eight people. I think, Uh, do you take a difer during the games? No, but I will get one at half time, A quick ye at half time. Man, I'll get me a quick year at halftime. Um, but no, I don't wants to go to Copenhagen stuff. Man, Unfortunately, what did you do? Like, I gotta think your life. I don't think I've ever asked bear at this. You guys are such ball guys. What do you do during COVID? We took a road trip. Deer Noggie and I um went down to the Frio River um and and spend a week. Um so so we did that. My wife and I h what was that? What was the concerts? Bathe? Casey Donna Hue, a Texas country singwriter, did some uh he did some YouTube concerts that we would all have a couple of booze in the backyard, and um did dad, Um, I went stir crazy. To be honest with you, I know, I don't know how. I don't know how, you guys, I went crazy. But the positive looking back was I try to be intentional and I'm sure your dad was with you. Um you learn, like you know with the kids. I know how you are as a dad. You're a great dad. And you know I talked about it, but uh, yeah, I got to spend some time right with the wife and kids. But wife, it honestly helped me because after all, my wife's like, go back and coach basketball. I'm tired of you being at home all the time. Right, Like, did you ever tell you you were right for taking that job in Juco to make no money? She ever said, Hey, no, she'll never They can't ever let you have that. He'll never go back. That's part. That's part of the they can't ever let you have that. They can't ever go like, hey remember that time, like you were right, this is a good life. I was, I'll never she'll never let me go. Yeah, she'll never let me win that one. Nope. Uh what is the you tap like hand gesture? Because and you can't go like this. That's hal that's the road runners. Yes, we're we're we turned it the other way. So it's kind of like Tanglus turned the other way. Yeah, yeah, I guess it's a maybe if I might be wrong on that, but uh, we're the miners, so it's the pick acts. I don't know. I hope I'm right on that bit here. A year and a half now, I don't know that. Um, all right, Uh, very last thing. In ten years, Joe Gold will be where doing what. I hope I'm coaching somewhere right um, because I love coaching. I love being around kids. Um, I love competing. Um. But so I hope I'm coaching it somewhere. And obviously the ultimate goal is to play for national championship, right to play on the Monday night. Um. That that's the dream, and that's the gold and and and uh um, you know, and it's obviously tough to do with Avelan Christian. It's tough to do in today's world at you tap, but we're to continue to try to try to you know, um, try to get there. That's been all a goal, you know, Beard and I had that on a napkin Doug years ago man Um in an old dive bar. Man we put down some life goals in a napkin, and think beer still has a napkin. But one was to play on the last Monday night, and you know, we had the opportunity to watch him do it at Texas Tech and and one of the hard another hard night of mine was when they lost and we stayed up all night with him Um and obviously what a tough game right against Virginia and over time you're so close, but he got you know, he played on Monday night, and I would I would love the opportunity to play on Monday night as well. What was the dive bar? I think it was the Poodle Lounge in Austin, Texas, and it's called the Poodle Lounge. They had free rice and beans on Sunday. We used to work at camp and round Rock and we were always looking for free meals and there was it was a rooster ship Sunday. It was with Jenny's Jenny's Saloon or Jenny's Lounge, and there they had they they every Sunday. They'd have live music, usually was Dale Watson and they would put a cover over the pool table of hundred numbers, a hundred squares with a cage on top of everybody been on a square for a buck. They put the rooster in there and whatever numbers, you know, you get money you bet on a number. So we would play that for like three or four hours, and then we would go across the street down the block or two to the Poodle Lounge and eat rice and beans and uh have a That was our Sunday at Round Rock, all right. Actually I love to have one more. Alright. So Austin used to be the coolest place in Texas, right and I agree, I mean it's and it's still cool, but there's so many California racings like myself moving in there. It ain't in corporate. It's stiff, it ain't. It ain't like it used to be. It ain't the same Austin. Okay, So give me the give me the place that only Texas guys know, like you gotta do this. This is a great place in Austin, Texas. In Texas Frio Rivers obviously, you know, close to my heart. We always took the river trips um you know, and and beer started that years ago with a bunch of people. But there's a small group of us that started go on the Frio River on Labor Day and then and then it involved to a bunch of coaches and it turned into a big, big, big deal, which is where we built a lot of relationships and networked. Uh. So the Frio River has always been there. Um. Wait, so when you go to the Frio River, you go like you camp in a motel and what do you do? We camp? We camp intense, We don't we don't shower. Uh. It's three day basically retreat. Uh. We were drink some cold beer. Um, and we get around a campfire. Cliff Carroll, who's the coach at Mary Harden Baylor was that was a manager for Beer to Tech. He does all the cooking for us. Um. And we hang around and we you just hang out and fisher and that's it. In the morning, we get up and eat breakfast and then we we we go get our inner tubes and we float the river all day and drink some beer and tell stories and catch up. And then we we have some rat bologna sandwiches that we eat halfway down the river. Um. And then when we get back to the camp side at night. Uh uh, we Uh, Cliff, Carol, what have dinner ready for us? And we eat dinner and then we we we tell some stories and the Gary P. Nunn always plays on Labor Day, so we always go to the Gary p Nun concert. But Aggie got us kicked out of the camp ground our last year there. Uh and that shouldn't surprise you. Um and so hell if I know, man, he did something and pissed the guy off that ran it. Um and and funny story as um. The guy's name was Andy Beard and he's actually become a b took care of us for five years, our five or six years, and then uh we we uh we we end up going back about two years ago, two or three years ago. I guess we all had a reunion. And of course this time now bears hit it right. So now we're all in full scholarship beards paying for everything, right. And so um Beard got us a house, so we were living the five star lives. Man. We we actually had a house for the first time, not a camp side. But we went we went back to Andy Beard's place, uh and said hello to him and it was great and we laughed and told stories and um, you know, he laughed about kicking us out, and uh it was great. He said, you guys are more than welcome, you know, to come stay here again. We said no, no, no, you know you kicked us out man once where we're not coming back. But you know, as you know, life always comes full circle, man, no question, no question. Well you've been great for your time. I know you got a road game. I gotta take on Andy Kennedy. That little point guard is tough. It's probably good. He's really good. He's a lot better than I did. I love, I appreciate your time, man. I enjoyed this summer catching up with you. Man. Learn a lot about your family and your story. And then I'm proud of you and what you're doing. And who knows what the future olds for both of us, man, but I'm a fan of you. Man. You can keep grinding, man, like what likewise I might. I might invite myself in that Threo River trip this year. Do you ever get down here too? Man, come by a practice show man coming out? I will. I appreciate you. Travel safe to Birmingham, and thanks for joining me, all right, see Doug, Yeah, my thanks to Joe Goldman. Thinks still you for listening, man, We've got great stuff in the hopper. If you'd like this, I'll listen any of our catalog of of stories of interviews here on the All Ball Podcast reminder of the Dug out Lip Shows daily three to five Eastern, twelve to two Pacific. There's also an hour pod called in the Bonus. That one's fun. I think you really like it now. That's just all sports, not just essentially focused on basketball, all sports, but um kind of more same personal commentary, same level of interviews and depth, just not the same depth and length obviously. Anyway, in the Bonus is the pod. The Doug Outlip Show is the show. Of course, you can download all that stuff. Just be a psycho fan. That'd be cool. Anyway. Thanks to listening. Thanks for Joe Golden for joining me. I'm Doug goldlic Business All Ball. The Temper Temper Temper Temper