Explicit

Beyond the Binary with Mila Jam + Bethany C. Meyers

Published Sep 15, 2020, 7:01 AM

Bethany C. Meyers + Mila Jam join Alex this week to share their stories of being beyond the gender binary. As an Artivist, musician and Black Trans woman, Mila Jam shares the story she always knew in her heart was true - even when she didn't have the words for it. Bethany C. Meyers, celebrated body-neutral advocate and queer-poly-married-non-binary person, breaks down her journey from making her first gay friend to eventually marrying them. What is the gender binary, and why is it so engrained in our upbringing? Are we allowed to continue to change, even after choosing our pronouns? What if someone tells you their pronouns, and you mess up? All this and more is covered on this can't-miss, joy-filled episode.

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My name is Alex, and my pronouns are he him his. No be al no alright, no, be alright forever, no be al alright, no, be alright forever. I was raised in a very very conservative religion, in a very very conservative state, even in a very conservative community. I think that the only saving grace that I had was probably that I had two parents who raised us to follow our heart and be inclusive and love everybody. And they raised us to know the difference between what you're being told is right and what actually feels right in your heart. And that really is the preface for my experience growing up, or I guess unlearning and relearning the things that I thought I knew, but now I'm continuing to learn about the lgbt Q plus community. So being raised in Arizona in a very very conservative religion, it was gnarly like you really were raised to believe that there was only two genders, and there's only one sexuality, which is straight, and you you know, if it's if you're a man, you love a woman, if you're a woman, you love a man, and there's no other options if you want to, you know, receive exaltation or you know, go to paradise when you die, and as a kid, you know you're you're raised to believe whatever the people above you are telling you. It wasn't until the two thousand and eight election where there was Proposition eight for California Proposition one O two for Arizona. At the time, I was living in Arizona, So Proposition one O two in Arizona was a proposition that was designed to ban gay marriage in the state of Arizona. And as you can tell, from a red conservative state that is predominantly very conservative, that propos aition was passed. But I remembered in that lobbying period for the two thousand eight election, I remember, you know, church groups. I remember my friends like going out and holding signs that say yes on one oh two, which I guess when you're a kid, you just read yes on one oh two. But reality is, the hate that that sign could carry was something that I couldn't even fathom as a twelve year old kid. My parents we didn't partake in any of those things. My parents knew what the deal was and so we didn't partake in it at all. I actually remember my parents tricked us. This is a complete side note my parents tricked us took us to the LLL cool J concert. This is how cool my parents are. They took us to the L cool J concert, but they wanted to surprise us, so they told us that we had to go. They were going to drop us off to go and hold the signs for yes on one O two. We were so bummed, like we were the most bummed kids in the world. And then we get in the car and they started driving towards the Arizona County Fair and we were like, wait a second, what's going out here? And they totally tricked us. We went out to ll cool J concert. Like, honestly, Martin and Heather Iono fucking coolest parents in the world. So that was really my first experience in terms of recognizing that there was an argument for or against people who loved the way that they felt their heart needed to love or be the person that their heart tells them they need to be, or that they are not even need to be that they are. And then I guess when I moved to Los Angeles, my heart started realizing what felt right and what didn't feel right. And as I looked back at my friends in Arizona who were still throwing around like derogatory terms and using the word gay to define anything that wasn't cool, like or or that they didn't like that. I started feeling in my chest like that's not cool, that's not right, that's not inclusive, that's not loving, that's not any of the things that my parents taught me to be. And I think as soon as that switch flipped for me, I immediately shifted into wanting to figure out how I can support, how I can help fight for the rights of all people, regardless of how they identify themselves. It made me immediately turn around and want to figure out any possible way that I could support or help fight for the rights of the people who are beyond the binary of traditional gender norms. So I became an ally to the l g B t Q plus community, and I met people who immediately just enriched my life's They upgraded my life, my view on the world, and just my view on life in general. Having fun. I got to write on the I Heart float at the New York City Pride Parade last year, and it was just like the most fun. I mean, you're surrounded by people who specialize in loving everybody, including everybody and the amount that you can learn in terms of inclusiveness and loving people for who they are, however they are, and however they choose to love of is something that you won't be able to learn anywhere else. And that got me thinking, how special would it be if we did an episode here on the show where we explore some of this, Because I know not everybody has a chance to meet or become friends with someone who's trans or non binary or gender queer, or maybe they're just not the most educated when it comes to the l g B t Q plus community. Uh So I wanted to have an episode about that. And you might notice that I take quite a bit of a backseat on this one because as a straight cis gender man, cis gender meaning that my gender identity matches what I was assigned at birth. This isn't my story to tell. No, No, what is up? Friends, It's alex IONO here. This is let's get into it. It is a podcast that I created where I can just talk about life and what it's like to be twenty four living in today's world. Right now, we are all in our own respective homes, just quarantining and practicing self this and seeing social distancing, self distancing. I'm losing my mind right now at this point. But when I say we, I have two amazing, amazing guests. You know that I always bring on friends, either their new friends or they are friends I've had for a while to talk about topics that they can give better insight on. Uh. And one of them is one of my very very close friends, Ladies and gentlemen, the one and only the Queen of Sugar, your local Beyonce, my personal bond me, Mila jam How are you love? Hi? Everybody? I am making do I'm doing all right. I'm hanging tight, I'm looking right and I'm feeling all right. Oh my god, she got the rhyme. She got the rhymes today. Uh. Mila was the star of my music video for her, which was a project that I wanted to help shine some light uh and and and really step out as an an ally for the l g B t Q plus community. Uh And since then, she's just been my sweet bond me and uh And I've been loving seeing all of the music and and all of the music videos and everything, all of the art that you're creating. I'm so happy that you're here, but you are not You're not the only guest that I have here. I also have a new friend. I have not met this person yet, but I'm so happy to meet them right here on this podcast. Or while they are what is this called quarantining, Geez, Louise, I'm losing my mind. While they're quarantining in their own home, I have Bethany Myers. Bethany is the founder and CEO of The Become Project and a body neutral advocate. Bethany has Become Project is a fitness based movement program that is rooted in body neutrality. They've been with their partner Nico Tortorella for thirteen years, and together they host the podcast The Love Bomb, where they discuss how they make their queer polyamorous relationship work. Bethany, how are you hi? I'm you know, I'm not my best, I'm not my worst. I'm just day by day. It is such an it is such an interesting time. I just saw you posted. Uh, you posted a really sweet message from Twitter onto your Instagram account for the Become Project that just kind of references the anxiety that people may be feeling. Uh. And I just want to say I really appreciate that because I have not been able to sleep through the night since this quarantine started, and so having that relatability to know that I'm not only the only one who's dealing with the anxiety that is coming with this pandemic, it meant a lot to me. So I just wanted to say thank you before we get into all of this. But I really love what you're doing the more research that I've done for the Become project, and we're gonna talk a lot more about that, but before we do that, I want to talk about what today's episode is about and why I have my two beautiful guests with me today. We are going to talk about gender identity. As I mentioned before, I am a very very very proud ally to the l g b t Q plus community. I love the courage that I see throughout the community, and I want to partake as much as I can wherever I can, however I can to help build up the fight for equality, equal rights, equal pay, equal opportunity for UM for everybody, and especially in today's episode, highlighting UM that equal opportunity that I fight for for the l g B t Q plus community. So I felt like it is very very appropriate and only right if we each take our own turns to introduce ourselves and our our pronouns and kind of just get a little comfortable with all of this. Yeah sounds good, Yeah, let's do it. I am your local biance, Mila Jam everybody, what's good? I am she her hers, and I hope that you're all doing amazing today. Beautiful Bethany, my name is Bethany Myers. My pronouns are they them, and they do a ton of work in the fitness space. Um, but really surrounding body neutrality and how do we make movement about giving time to ourselves instead of punishing ourselves. And I'm super excited to be here today, especially having gender talks because I love to talk about gender. Yeah. Um, and I'm alex Iono. I use the pronouns he him and his and uh And I a very very grateful that I have you two here just to help shine more light. I think that for me especially, this is a constant unlearning and relearning of things that I maybe thought I knew or knew before that are changing and ever changing. So I'm very very grateful that you guys would both come on this podcast and help educate me more, educate the listeners more. I'm just grateful. Overall, we have some beautiful, beautiful topics to talk about. UM. The first topic, Bethany, you and I are gonna be talking about choosing comfortable labels. Then after that, Mila, you and I are gonna be talking about seeing the representation and being the representation. And lastly, we're going to talk about how sis gender folks like me can just be better about furthering the conversation, being a better ally to the l g B t Q plus community, and getting a little bit more inclusive with these topics. Does that sound cool with you guys? Amazing? Perfect? Before we get into it, though, I have a question that I ask all of my guests, uh, and it is a simple question for this week. What have you been doing to improve your life? UM? A lot of it has been quarantine type stuff with the episodes that we've been recording, but I'll give you an example and let you guys have some time to think. So this week, I'm very very fortunate. I have a Peloton bike that I've had for over a year now that I ride very very religiously, and this week I wanted to level that up, so I actually started P ninety X on top of it. So I'm doing two workouts a day, eating a ton of food, trying to stay healthy and honestly just not lose my mind because I've now been in my house for what is three and a half weeks, So I am I'm very, very very adamant on getting my fitness right and hopefully coming out of this thing looking like the Rock or maybe like the Pebble. I guess if we're not going to be the complete you know, the Dwayne the Rock, Johnson Alex the Pebble, I own no. Um. So that is what I've been doing to improve myself this week, Mila, you got something for me? Yeah? Yeah, I've been working on my memory skills, Like I get a lot of side sent to me for auditions, and like this is the perfect time for me to start like honing my like ability to memorize stuff in short periods of time. Audio stuff, Like I love to watch video clips like on TikTok and all this stuff and then replay them over and over and over again and see how like long it takes me to remember the like like like learning a song, but like learning the words or the dialogue in the scene and then just going over a bunch of sides that I get throughout my agency and my my agents when they send me stuff. And so I feel like when I'm normally running from place to place, I never have time to actually like just really like dive into like text and like inflections and like what am I feeling in this? And how do I deliver this to make it sound good? And the artists and the musician in me gets all like musical about it and everything, and so I have the time to do it. And so that's I've just been working on memorizing text. I love that. I love that. Really, it really is like a great I have never heard somebody give me on this show and answer that makes me go, damn, I never have even thought about doing. You can be the rock and I'm my Angelou. I'm just gonna I'm gonna work on I have a feeling me that's going to be given us a singers all episode long, Bethany, what have you been up to to better your life? Well? I will say, you know, this is week three of Quarantine. As we're recording this week one, I was like energizer bunny person with a plan, like you know, just so go go go and here's all the things we're gonna do. And then week two it was full burnout, I mean just crash, like crying every single day, couldn't get anything done, didn't feel motivated at all, which is actually kind of a theme that happens in my life. I tend to lake burn the candle at both ends and then crash. So this week I've really i mean, this is like a simple thing, but I'm really trying to make a commitment to balance and routine. And so it's which has sounded a lot like, you know, kind of laying out a schedule for my day and starting my morning peacefully as opposed to jumping into work right away. I think it's been really helpful just for like my overall anxiety and kind of keeping my feet on the ground. But yeah, balance and routine are the two main things that I'm really trying to work for. Simple but very important. That's very important for quarantine life. Routine is important. I'll got some y'all got some amazing answers. Uh, let's get straight into it. Honestly, Milo, we will be with you in just a second. But Bethany first, it's you and I one on one, and we're gonna be talking about labels. So you've said before you do not love labels. Um, they do help others understand you, but they should not define you in any way, shape or form. How did you land on your current labels? Oh that's a great question. Um, yeah, I think labels are It's funny. There's so much going on with language right now, just like as a society. You know, the word of the year last year was them, And I think it's really helpful right now, specifically looking at it from a queer lens, to use labels to help us figure this out, you know, and to help us to be able to put words to something that we really haven't had words for before. But my dream is like to be able to live in this world where there aren't labels and we don't have to define you know this boy and girl and male and female and this or that gay or straight. We can just be. I think right now labels for me, I mean using non binary. I really love also the term gender fluid and gender neutral, just because I love the word neutral in general. I use it in so many different aspects of life. I love that is there a moment that that really like stuck out to you, but I think for me it was really it resonated with me, you know, the she her pronouns, things that were like super female based never really felt quite right. And I think being able to give myself sort of this genderless space has really opened up just my overall perception of the things that I enjoy. So, like a really small example would be the last year I started growing out my leg hair, which is like something I previously never really thought I would do because I'm a very very hairy person with like really dark hair. And I think that the non binary label actually kind of helped me accept that more in in some way, um, it was like, well, it doesn't really matter, right, like what is male and female, especially specifically for myself, And I think it's allowed me to kind of move outside of the box of my preconceived notions of you know, what I am supposed to be? Are my trained notions, right? These societal standards that we've grown up with of how we have to look behavior, act, Yeah, yeah, No, I mean I definitely agree with you, though. I think that societal standards in your situation are absolute lead to constricted and and also in the regular life of every human being, all across the gender unicorn as I like to use that term. I spent some time talking with Aaron Rose last year in preparation to to really step out more than just supporting, but actually being an outward um vocal ally for the lgbt Q plus community and learning that societal standards are not only constricting for people who don't fall within the traditional gender model, but for those of us who do. But before we get more into that, I wanna I want to discuss kind of your journey into finding the labels or deciding the labels that you wanted to go by, And for those who may be wondering what the differences between trans and non binary and gay and straight and CIS gender are. When we talk about someone who's gender nonconforming or non binary or trans or CIS or cis gender, we're talking about gender identity. That is who you are. When we talk about gay or lesbian or straight, we're actually talking about who a person is attracted to. What was your what was your process going through life that got you to where you are today, and how much more comfortable you are with the labels and with your like you're saying everything from using pronouns like they in them to even just leaving your leg hairs to grow and be the beautiful body that you you know that God gave you. Yeah, well it was certainly a slow burn, to say the least. I was raised in a very very religious setting, almost like a bit verging on cultish, a ton of rules, a ton of restrictions, a lot of like you can go here, you cannot go here. But like growing up, I was certainly knocking on people's doors asking if they were going to heaven or hell. And I really didn't have like any knowledge whatsoever of a world outside of this very very conservative Christian bubble that I lived in. Like I wasn't allowed to go to the movie theater, or to take dance classes, or to wear you know, pants as opposed to a skirt kind of thing. So yeah, like I mean, it was it was pretty intense. And so there was like several different moments in my life where I was really shocked by the world. Like the first one, I ended up transferring to a public school from my very very small Christian school of like thirty people. Um. I ended up transferring to a public school when I was sixteen years old, and that was the first time where i'd like, you know, seeing a classroom where boys and girls could sit wherever they want, Like they could sit mixed up, you know, not separated boys on the left and girls on the right kind of thing. And then I would write so so like public school was a huge shock for me. And then I moved to Chicago, which is actually where I met Nico, my spouse, fourteen years ago, and that was that was the first time that I met a gay person. And I remember well that I knew that I met a gay person, like surely I met gay people before, you know, I didn't know. And you know, I had just been raised under this assumption that gay people were um they had fallen so deeply into sin that their ultimate punishment was God made them gay. That's how I understood what queer was. And so and then I like, you know, I went to Chicago, and I like met queer people and I was like, oh, wow, they're not the devil, you know. It was it was just this moment where I was like, hmmm, that's interesting. And then that was also the first time that I recognized that I had feelings for a woman. It was New Year's Eve. She was kissing a guy she was a close friend. She was kissing a guy and I was sitting there watching them, and I was like so jealous. And the moment I felt those jealous feelings, it was like I need to push that down and bury it. You know, I don't know what's what's going on there. And then over time it was just this slow progression and what kind of a reaction did those feelings make you have? I think something that often happens with queer people and that certainly happened with myself, is we're so often told that we're not able to explore our gender roles, were not able to explore, you know, somebody of the same sex, and so it becomes, um, it becomes so taboo that the only way you're able to explore it is through using, you know, some type of substance. I mean not that that happens to everyone, but I think it happens to a lot of people. So I know, certainly for me, it was like, let's get wasted so that way I don't have to actually know what I'm doing, and I can like hook up with this girl or have a three summer you know, like like do these things. It just became from this place of substance and and kind of being blacked out. And then when I moved to New York eight years ago is when I really really found freedom and found you know, I don't know what it is about New York City, but it's just a bunch of weirdos that go there to play and you can just be yourself. It's so beautiful. And so that was really the first time that I started dating women, started realizing what exactly those feelings were. And then and then after that, right, like, the gender came even after that portion. That's really only been in the last couple of years that I've used the word non binary. So what made you feel like the label that you were born with didn't quite fit? Yeah, you know, I don't know why that I can tell you exactly what it was to get there. But one was simply education, right, I mean, the first time that I met somebody that was non binary and they were like, I don't identify with being male or female, I was like me too, you know WHOA like, that's an option. And genuinely, that was really only in the last couple of years. So I think that I am still exploring and still finding out what that looks like um, which is the beautiful, Which is a beautiful thing and also something that I hope changes for future generations, you know, because a lot of queer people, most queer people end up having a second puberty in their twenties or some of their thirties or forties or fifties, you know, and we're not really allowed to be ourselves growing up, and so that means that you have to do a lot of self work and a lot of self discovery as an adult. So I I really hope that, you know, we're able to start seeing that shift for those other younger than us. Absolutely, And I just have to say that was amazing and beautiful. I'm out here just like I'm just I'm just loving it. I got like a big old smile on my face listening to you. I was grinning the whole time too. Very good. The good news is that I have here is that statistically, we are actually um, we are on the road to, like you had mentioned, brighter future. A full thirty five percent of Generation Z say that they personally know somebody who uses gender neutral pronouns like they and them, compared to a quarter of millennials who said the same sixteen and twelve of Gen X and baby boomer baby boomers UM who knows somebody who is gender neutral using the pronouns day in them non binary. There is also a large increase in the amount per generation of people who would prefer that forms online or profiles about gender should include options other than man or woman UM, and that there should be more than just two binary gender choices for forms and uh an online profile. So, so, now that you've shared with us your story, your journey of coming to the conclusion that they then pronouns feel the most comfortable for you, what's your advice for somebody who might still be exploring their gender identity that they might not yet know what their pronouns are. I mean, I think the number one thing is knowing that everything can change and that you are allowed to change. You know, Nico and I actually talked about this all the time, and how you don't have to be set. I am X and then that's what you are for the rest of your life. I think that, like, that's where the word fluidity is so beautiful and we can really allow ourselves to explore. So exploration is a great word to use here, right, Like, what does it feel like to tell your most close friends could you call me they them? Or what is it like to start following more people on Instagram or making your social your internet social circles filled with non binary people. I know something I did is I watched a lot of YouTube videos from other non people talking about gender and how they um experience being a non binary person, and that for me felt super super comforting to be like, oh, I'm not alone in this, you know, but I think really giving yourself the opportunity to explore and finding where you can safely explore, right, because not everywhere people are able to be safe. Um, So I think that that's a really important piece. Oh I love that. Uh. And now I guess for the other side of of that decision. Um, once you decide, I'll even call myself out. Before we got to meet personally, we're we're prepping to record this podcast, and I use the pronoun she and her in referencing yourself, and once I was corrected, I automatically shifted gears and immediately went straight into it. What is your advice for somebody who gets in that same situation, or maybe for someone who is so intimidated and scared that they're going to mess up somebody's pronouns. They even avoid interacting with anybody that's different from them at all. What's your advice for those people? Right? This is actually one of my favorite topics to talk about, is how to help other people transition their language and making language more inclusive. I'm just so fascinated by that idea. But I think um number one is that a lot of times people get a bit defensive with using the then pronouns. That's That's what I've seen is that people like, oh, why does it have to be this? Like doesn't matter, you know. I think a lot of times the reason we get defensive is because it's not easy to to make the shift into using they then pronounced. And I kind of equate it to like learning a new language, Like if you just learned Spanish and you don't have all of the conjugations completely correct on the word right, because that's something that you're not used to saying, and so like, we have to honor that piece. We have to we have to allow ourselves the time to learn it and to understand it. So things that you can do is you can practice writing simple sentences with they then pronouns you can, um, when you're reading a book, see what it's like to substitute he she gendered pronouns with they them. UM. I think that like there's actually some education and just learning that you have to do, and it takes practice. Um. And then I also feel like when you do mess up a pronoun, instead of spending a ton of time apologizing and be like, oh my god, I'm so I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, just correct it and then move on. Because for a non binary person or someone who uses the then pronouns, it's never comfortable to be in a social situation and be monopolizing the conversation by everyone apologizing to you about a word. You know, So I think that the best thing to do is actually just oops, I mean they, and then continue to move on and roll right over it. Then, number one thing that I would love to see from people is not it's not everyone being perfect in using the right pronouns all the time, but simply people making the effort. I love that. That's a beautiful period. The effort, I think, the effort to want to make that change, to unlearn the things that maybe you had learned as a kid and relearned them now to the way that the world is now so that people feel that equality, people actually push for that equality to be more than what it is now. And as we've seen the trend statistically, it's gone up you and you ended that statement perfectly, and I think that's gonna end this segment perfectly. We're gonna take a quick break. Thank you so much, Bethany. When we come back, my sweet bond Me, Mila jam is going to be talking with me about seeing representation and being the representation. We will be right back. Don't go anywhere. We are back. This is let's get into it. I'm Alex Siono and we are having a sweet, fun conversation about gender identity. I just finished a beautiful conversation with Bethany Myers. We talked about choosing comfortable labels, the process that they went through to choose their labels, and how you can get a little bit more comfortable with it and know that it's an ongoing process as life is um in every situation. People might be wondering why I call you my sweet bond me. When we filmed the her music video that Mila was the star of, we actually had lunch which were a little bond me sandwiches. It's a Vietnamese sandwich. And for some reason we kind of it was me, you and Nick Mila, and we kind of call ourselves the bond. We like, all three of us the bond we and so we kind of just all called each other bond me and it's just kind of stuck. So that's so that's where that comes from. But now we are talking, Mila jam bond me. How are you Alex? I miss you. I haven't seen you in a very long time. And I wish we could just have like a quick social distancing hang out, like across the street or something, and maybe we could wave to each other. Mila, let's just start off. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? UM A recording artist, musician, singer, songwriter. UM. Artivists is what I like to call myself. Actress, choreographer, dancer, UM. The list goes on and on. And I love to just be the best me that I can be. Uh. I love that. UM. We're gonna talk all I want to talk. We're gonna get into it. I want you to know we're gonna get into your whole life, which is why I was not worried about it. The amount of talent that you have continues to impress me. Um. But before we get into that, I wanted to talk about the process, um, that I went through. I know, sometimes learning to be a better version of ourselves means actually making a ton of mistakes along the way. I mean, I remember when we were filming the music video for her, you had to correct me so many times, and you were so patient and and kind to me, and it really helped me become a better version of me. So sometimes learning to be a better version of ourselves means making a ton of mistakes along the way. I truly do value you as a teacher and as a friend, and as a constant example of what it means to have true courage and be an insane artist or artivists. As you say, i'm gonna start, I think I'm gonna steal that. I want to apologize ahead of time. I'm gonna steal artivists because that's genius. Um. But I want to hear more. Okay, I'll pay rent for it, Um. I wanted to learn more about actually how you grew up, the way that you grew up, the same way that I spoke with Bethany about it. Um, you grew up in an era where transrepretented representation was very, very limited, and representation of black women was already restricted to specific types. Growing up, how did you see yourself through that process? It's quite a journey. I'm from the South and from Georgia, actually a really small town called Columbus, Georgia, even though I like to reference Atlanta a t. L. Shouty as one of the places that I grew up. And so I was born in Chicago and raised in Columbus slash Atlanta, Georgia, and so you know, it's the dirty South. It's like, you know, the Bible Belt. And I always knew I was different. I always felt like I was female. And I remember, since I was probably four years old at least, thinking that those things don't work in this world. And I believe that most of my youth, in my upbringing, my childhood, I was just compensating for what I always knew in my heart and in my spirit was me and what was real. And this is when we go to sleep at night, when we, you know, are by ourselves, when we are alone, and we have our thoughts, and how we process those thoughts and those feelings that we have for who we are, who we like see in the mirror, um how that either looks good to you or doesn't really resonate with you. And you're trying to figure out what the disconnect is. And then you have society and people around you. You You have family and friends telling you who you are. That's literally what people do when you're a child, you know, you have people telling you who you are, and they kind of pay attention to the things that you give them. But it's really hard to let children sort of just be, especially black children raising the South, because almost every black person that was raised in you know, the black culture can kind of attest to Like, there's so much that we deal with from the beginning of our lives. We're not to go, what not to do, what not to say, how not to act, how not to look, how to look, how to act to be not only a representation of your black community, but a representation of someone that is um, you know, upstanding or hopefully you know, doing some good and not out on the street and not like doing something bad. So I had all of that to to deal with, and on top of that, I'm just like, I just feel so connected to the female spirit and the feminine energy. And I was always picked on as a kid for that. I was always seen as you know, words like the sissy or like people would say you gay, you gay. This is before you had any understanding of like what that means. You know, even without sexuality being a part of the conversation. You just know, Oh, the way that I present or feel or act mixed alarms people. And then so what do you do? Most people will go into themselves and they will basically sabotage themselves and just cut it off, or they will like you know, create a math. I wasn't that person. I never created a mask for it. And I say that because in really honestly knowing so much of who I really was as a kid, I just existed in spaces and I would probably say I was more non binary as a kid. And I've never even admitted this or said this on any you know, interview, but like I mean, looking back, because I was male bodied, because I was told I was a boy, I probably just felt androgyny was the word that was really like the word. And when I was little and so like, I just felt in dragynus and I knew my attractions, and I knew how I saw myself, and I knew the kind of energies I wanted to be around girlfriends girls. I was one of the girls. I was always the kid that was the only one allowed to like come to the sleepover, that was not like a threat. So it was like I was like so in just into researching my feelings and like keeping journals and just being creative. And I felt like I found my identity through creativity, through art, because like one thing was just like I was a kid with a lot of energy. You know, I think we share that. I bet you had the most energies. I had the most energy in the world. I still have and like you already know you know you know, so like dancing, dance classes, I was a gymnast, acting classes, voice lessons, church choir. I was in like some local television shows. I was in regional theater. I really was projecting to become like a child star. I had opportunities as a kid to go to l A and to be a part of a sitcom. And my mom was just kind of like I as a single mother. She was like, I don't know what that life is going to bring, Like that's going to benefit us, and she's like, right now, it is like, you know, you're a kid and you need in education. So like it just didn't go that way. I really just delve so much into being an artist and that sort of helped me get through my identity issues and expressing it through performance. And then that was also the way that I was able to beat It was like my saving grace. It was like my my protection and my armor, because if people made fun of me, if I were able to like perform, you know, they would say, oh, but you're talented, Okay, so you're good. You know, we'll let you slide. You know, we're not going to really pick on you too much because you know, you could saying and so that's kind of what people would, you know, give me, And then I would just kind of hide away from everything else. I look back to and thinking about identifying as someone gay in high school, it was a time of it was a clear binary. This is in the nineties. It is a clear binary. You are gay or you are straight. That was it. So I was like, I know, in what everyone is telling me, I probably fit more into the gay aspect, even though I see myself as a woman, and my attraction is to only men and being someone that has never been attracted to women or desired And I like to say this in in breaking down sexuality, I think sexuality is about desire, Like who do you desire to wake up next to? Who you desire to want to spend time with? Who do you desire to want to have your most wonderful moments with sexual included. So that's what I look at it. And so I was like, well, I never wanted that with women. I just felt like a sisterhood. And I loved what Bethany said so much about like we're learning and evolving, and I, you know, I do think there is space between the fluidity and the spectrum. I feel like I'm as fixed as fixed could be in in a sense, I don't know, like I don't know what I would say about my life in twenty years from now, but I pretty much know like ever since I was very very young, I've always known I wanted to be a woman, and I always knew that I was attracted to men, and I don't know how that was going to happen. So was there any like specific moment that you realized maybe there's an option for you to come into your identity as a woman. I remember reading a magazine I think it was Cosmo when I was in high school, and it was literally like about a girl from Thailand who had transitioned and she had met a guy and she was in him and he liked her too, and he magically like liked her so much that he married her and that he was okay because she had transition from male to female. And I was just like my mind was blown, and I was like that really happens. I was like that really, like you can really do that, and you still don't even understand how it works. This is like why people don't even understand like coming to terms with like learning how you understand yourself as a gay person, as a trans person, as a straight person, and so like the only difference is for some people in the queer community is like we've had all of this time to really try to figure out what's going on and have the work that we internally do, and then we come to an AHA moment and we have this embracing of the aha moment is what I like to call it, and you go, this is what it is, this is what I need to do, and I'm ready to stand up in that love that I just feel there are a lot of people, straight, cys, hetero people, you know, that kind of just float into this like I don't have to do any work, I don't really have to think about what I'm feeling, because I still believe at the end of the day, even with the movement, the l g B t Q plus movement, what we would realize is that there are so many people that are fluid, that are on a spectrum that are not necessarily fixed. And so yes, right, and so we have this, we have this construct that we're bound to that I think it's primarily about money and power, and that's a different podcast. It's about advantages and privilege and what is allotted to you. And I know, being someone black, it's like it's not okay for you to want to be different or to be different, or to be gay or to be trans because you're messing up. You're sucking it up for everyone else in the group, and you're or be in a nuisance and you're being a problem. And you know, I mean I was never in I was never sent to conversion therapy. But what I like to say is in the Black Church when you're when you're raised in the Black Church, if you come out when you're still young, you are gonna be taken to church and you're gonna have a discussion with your pastor. This is what happens. And the parents, the mother, the father of both, they're like, we're gonna go see Pastor Gibson or whomever. Shout out to my old pastor, Pastor Gibson. We're gonna have a talk. We're gonna chat, We're gonna say, I know you have these feelings. And it's always about you having these feelings, but they're not predicated on merit. They're not okay, and this is not how you get through life and this is not how you make a way for yourself. So we need to deal with it. And it's always under this. It's always about it being wrong. You're never given the space to be able to be like, how do you really feel today, Mila? How do you feel Alex? What are you thinking about? Bethany? Can you express to me that was non existent? And also for me growing up to is like moving to New York was about I need to get away. I need to go to a place where I feel like I can be my most creative, expressive self and somewhere where I can feel like I can discover and explore that real self. And you know, being here, I learned to own myself. I mean, and I always say this too, It's like, you know, we have to find safe spaces because not everyone has the safety to be able to do what they want to do. I had someone asked me, while I live with my mother and they don't agree with me being trans, and they don't you know, I can't And I said, listen, boo, when you can figure out how to get out of or from under their roof, whether you're making your own money or you found your own place, you kind of have to appease the situation because that's your livelihood. But once you're able to step out of that, you can start making decisions for yourself. And then I was completely convinced that my I would never speak to my family. What was that conversation with your family? Like I was raised, is in love. My mother is one of the most amazing women in the world, and she's always supported me and loved me. Confusions conversations, yes, some you know, headbutting, of course, but I was ready to accept the fact that my family mother aunt, uncle's father could not accept it. So I made the choice. And it's like it's like when you're when you're just um, what do you know when when you say it's you're all in, Like you get to a point where you're just so all in that you don't care. And I am not to get off on a tangent. I'm trying to encourage the people that I encounter, especially straight identified men that realized that they're attracted to or interested in trans women, to be able to fight for their their needs and their attractions and to make space for the things that they really want and love. Um and so because we just consistently get left on the wayside. But I just was like, my family not gonna have it. And I was like, peace, y'all can take it however you want. I have to focus on my life. And then the questions come and then that you know, you know what I want to know. I want to understand, um, well why does it have to be this way? Well why can't you just perform? And why can't you just do this? Sometimes? And I was like, well, I wake up and I go to sleep being this feeling, this embodying, this and this is me and I am Mila, and it needs to you know, and I have to just live into that and lean into that. And eventually my mother obviously she's she kind of got the picture because it was no longer a joke or a game, because a lot of it starts out being funny, and a lot of it is a joke. A lot of comedy surrounds being queer, being trans, being different. It's always we are always the butt of the joke. We're always the comedic relief. Every comedian has done a joke about gender identity, and I will say that some of them are really funny and some of them are not. But it's it's like we have to really understand that the human experience is so vast, and it's like the boxes don't ever allow us to get to those places. And this is how you have people coming out at different places in their life. I was never married to a woman. There are some trans women who were married to women when they you know, before transitioning, and so this is how you have the different nuances come into play. But that all being said, because I'm sure you have lots of questions. I just I feel like I was just about to say I have hewn, but you aren't answered all of them like you literally answered all of them. I mean, I think the biggest thing for me is, uh, can you tell us about the first time that you experienced a trans woman living what you perceived as an authentic day to day life. I did come to New York and I started touring and doing theater and doing like Broadway show shows on the road or whatever. And I would see trans women in the club scene, in the gay club scene, performing. And what you have to remember is, which is very strange for me, is because I was basically reared in gay culture, in the gay scene, in the gay nightlife, uh, you know, experience, and so it's kind of a it's a little bit of a rabbit hole when you're a straight identified like woman on the binary that happens to be trans, where all of that information comes from a lot of the women I saw, they were performers. I never saw their humanity. I never saw the person behind the dollar bills, the shimmy dress, the you know, show numbers. And I was just like, it was not until and I say this in every even interview. Candice Kane, who is one of my dear Sisters. She was on Dirty Sexy Money, and I am Kate. I saw her performing and I saw her show and it was the first time that I witnessed a trans woman that was not only like visually mesmerizing and stunning, but funny and witty and real and honest. And I just I saw the human. And I have a friend who would say when I first saw her perform, he's He's like, that was the moment. He's like, I saw it in your eyes and you realized, oh my god, that's that's that's me. And I did. I felt, this is like, that's that's who I am. I I have that. I'm like, I feel the same way I want to be that. How does that happen? And then it wasn't until I also say this, It wasn't until I met Laverne Um Laverne Cox that I had a friend that gave me tools that was like, girl, I knew you. I knew a girl when I met you. We all have to do it in our own time, but this is where you go, this is who you talk to, this is what you kind of like if you need help with finding clinics and all this stuff. And I was like, oh my god, this is what it is, and and then finding the path to that for myself. It was like, I know the kind of woman that I want to be, Like, I want to be real, I want to be authentic, I want to be positive. I want to be a representative of something you know that always gets a bad rap, and I want to be able to change by just being visible and showing people that, like, what you think you know about us is not the truth and it's not always true, and that um dispel a lot of you know, so well, you've definitely become a visible representation for millions of trans kids. How often does that really factor into your daily thought process of how you want to create and what message you want to put out there every day? I would say that's uh. I would just I've been the same person my whole life. That's really what what's interesting. And you know, the wildest dream of becoming like the person you dream to become the woman I have dreamt of becoming like living that is just gratitude. And it's just like I've gotten to a place where, I mean, honestly, no story is too sacred to tell because we're storytellers. And that's what we're supposed to do. I think, while we're here and in this space, what do you have if you can't tell your story? What what do you have if you can't share the experience of what your specific journey has given you. And that's what helps people real And you know, being an artist and a musician, and we you know, we work with people that write music for us. We collaborate. You know, someone might write a song for you and say like alex I wan should do this? Me love, can you do this? We have to take the time in between you know, doing things for other people's or other reasons, to just be real and to give of ourselves because that's what really helps people, you know, not saying the right thing and not doing the thing that you think people want to hear. It's really about transparency, Mila. I mean, I'm very lucky that I've already had the opportunity in life to create art with you. I'm very lucky that I have the future opportunity to continue creating art with you. Hearing your story only makes me love you more. And I think you are the perfect example of seeing representation and in the lack thereof being representation, not only for other people, but for yourself. Uh, And so I love you even more after hearing things about you that I had never heard um and hearing you tell your story the way that you did. We're going to take a quick ad break when we come back. We got Bethany back with us, we got Mila already here with us, and we have some messages for the CIS folks. Is what we have here, is what we titled the section. But we're gonna be talking about just kind of simple questions, just a quick run through for those of you out there that want to continue learning more educating yourselves on learning the things that are not real or not right or not true, and learning the things that are. So we'll be right back and we'll talk to you about I am very, very blessed to be in the presence of Bethany Myers and me legient beautiful guests pod presence. I love that that could always And we've had some beautiful conversations about choosing labels that you are comfortable with using for yourself, about being representation, seeing representation, and now to close it out, I wanted to have a moment. I am a CIS gendered heterosexual man, and I wanted to make this section kind of a quick rapid fire question and or place that my listeners can come to and learn things that they might not know already, or maybe become a little bit more comfortable with things that they might know a little bit about but not be comfortable with. But before we get into that, Mila, you were saying something in the break I actually stopped you because I wanted you to say it here on the section, So please take it away. Yeah, no, I was just I wanted to just pickyback onto Bethany when they were saying how important it is to give yourself space to make you know and not necessarily make mistakes, but that you don't have to be perfect when you're learning that someone has a different pronoun or you know, you meet someone and they go by, they them there, and you're still a little confused and you slip up and you mess up because I mean, for me, it's about intention, you know, And when someone apologizes to me, I know when the apology is coming from a place of like, I'm sorry, I didn't know, because I always say I stand to be corrected, and I've it has happened for me, you know, I've gone to places, and if I see someone that's presenting mail or masculine, if I say excuse me, sir in that moment and they're like, um, I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry. You know, please inform me. I just always stand to be corrected, and it can be awkward, it could be uncomfortable, but like, hey, we're all learning at times and we don't all have the answer. I love that. So the first question that I have that I think is something very important. It took me some time to really learn the difference. But here on the podcast, either of you can answer this, or you can both answer this piggyback off of each other. Can you explain the difference between transgender and gender nonconforming? Because I feel like you've both mentioned growing up the way that the world's been, it's been a very binary mindset from the eighties into the nineties and then into now where we are continuing to learn. For my listeners out there who might throw all of it into one category, which it absolutely isn't. Can you explain the difference between transgender and gender nonconforming? I just would say that it's an umbrella term. It's like it's an umbrella kind of situation. You know, there's think of, I don't know, building with rooms and you know, under the trans apartment complex, I guess if you will, there are in different rooms that people kind of inhabit and you know, and they're not exclusive to just one room. But like, and I'd love to hear Bethany's description of this, but personally, like I identify as a trans heterosexual trans women, Um, you know, I'm on the binary, so I don't identify as non binary. But you can be trans and identify as non binary. That's very possible. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great way to think of it. You know, it's important to note that different people use their words in a different way, and I think that meanings can kind of hold a lot. But for a gender nonconforming person, I would say that I would normally think of that it's not necessarily adhering to male or female. Whereas somebody who identifies as trying and is identified at birth as one gender and then a transition into another gender and like being called that specifically, just like Nila just said about it being more on the binary, you know, she's on the binary, trans heterosexual person, whereas, yeah, that is that is as simple as as it needs to be in its explanation. Like you said, it is not just one or the other. It's not just that, oh, you are this or you are that. Um. So thank you guys for explaining that further. Now for both of you, how do you manage the feelings? And do you ever get tired? Do you ever get annoyed about explaining your existence? Oh? Um, I I really believe it's a part of my spiritual work. Yes, I get tired. I don't want to have to do it. But there's a difference between feeling like you have to do it and really wanting to do it because I really want to share that information. And I think that's why we exist. And I was saying this to Laverne yesterday on on my Instagram Live, that we have queer people and people that are not on this binary necessarily are a gift. We have a different way of receiving energy from the earth and the light, and there's so much around us that that puts us on ourselves, that makes us say that we're not you know, viable, we're not worthy, we're not you shouldn't be that. It's no, no, no, no no, And the reality is. It's like there's so much Yes, if people would just listen, if people would just make space, there's so much to gain from learning from the gifts that we have. So I want to share that. I want to share that gift of telling you know what I'm doing now when I'm on tender and I'm talking this on guy and he's trying to be a little bit of a knucklehead, and it's like having to explain myself all the time, and they're never doing any work, and they're never reading anything or googling anything. You know, it is amazing when a guy will say to me, I've read about that. I was thinking about that. Yeah, I know. You know, as a transforman, I know you deal with a lot of stuff like I'm sorry that you have to deal with that. That's comforting because you're paying attention, But when people are just not paying attention, it's like, how do you expect anyone to show up for you? Please? Bethany take Yeah, that was absolutely beautiful. And I think you know, also, Meli, you were talking about race before, and I'm a white person, and you know the black trends. Women I think have to deal with this. I mean they do deal with this and skills that are one million times more than what I've ever had to experience, you know. Um So, So with that being said, I do think there are pieces of this that can be really exhaustive. There's a part of me that definitely wants to teach. I find I get the most exhausted when the queer community, so my family can't get it or don't doesn't try to use pronouns. That has been a big frustration for me. Like I've actually had some friends who just you know, it's all like not even anant, yeah, just like not even a little bit. And I think that's so disheartening because it's like if you can't get it, then how do you my mom ever going to get it? You know. Like so I think that part is tough. But then the other side of it is like you get so much encouragement, and like I have a lot of parents, um in my Instagram following who are like trying to teach their kids and help them understand what a non binary person is and they're like, today, you know, my little kid like looked at your Instagram and was like they're such a handsome girl, you know, or like trying to say these things, and you just see that there's a teacher and that there there are people who want to learn and grow, and so I think they counterbalance each other often. Before I ask the next question, I do want to shout out Mela's Instagram. If you are on Tinder and you match with Mila, you better come correct because if you don't, you're getting called out like I've seen Mila go off on some fools out there. So if you're gonna come to if you're gonna come to me, Lontenda, you better come correct. Uh. Kind of expanding on that, what is one thing that you both wish sis people understood a little bit more about your community. I wish, well, this is a little bit about a different community. But myself and my partner are we have a not a monogamoust polymers relationship, and um, I wish that people understood more that it's like not just about the sex. And I think that also goes like for the careeer, like just all the way around that It's like that people who are bisexuals, it's not just because they want to have sex with everyone. People who are polly it's such just about sex, like it actually is about meaningful connections and relationships and about being able to be or more authentic self and for me not being held by these restrictive labels that say I am this or that. So yeah, I think that's my my number one there. Um yeah, I would I would agree with that too. Um. I would just say that six people, black trans women are the ultimate gift. And you need to stand up. You need to say something when you see something. You need to back us up. You need to support us, you need to love us. There is such a depletion of love and respect and understanding and healing for the black trans woman, and that is what she needs right now. I'm specifically talking about black trans women because that's me and that's my sisters, and there are so many people who can love us in the dark, but just can't find it to love us in the light. And you need to figure it. We need to we need to change that. That has to that. It's changing, and it's got to change. It's gotta continue to change. And it only happens by making light of what's real. God damn, you meet a trans woman. She's true, she's a trans woman, and what and great and let her be? Let her do her thing. She's cute. I'm feeling her great. Your bro or your buddy sees her and it's like, I think she's cute. The first thing that happens is a disclaimer. Well, no, no, no, I don't think you you might want to no no, no no no, Like let people step into their own desire and let people make their own choices. And I know that we're all kind of taught to be like, go with what your family says, go with what your friends say, because I deal with that too, even as a queer person, as a trans woman, like my girlfriends would be like, girl, you can talk to him or whatever. But like, we really need to create more room for people, Like even Bethany was saying about being polly or being open or all like, there's so much that people are just misinformation. It's like, what if you actually really just let go of it and just let it be, then you'll probably learn something new and be like, oh, all right, y'all are spitting heat. Y'all are spitting heat today, Mila, I literally want to have like Sunday service with you. I would be down with it down and I love it. I'm watching I'm watching Unico all the time, and I'm like, I'm sending you a huge care bear hug right now. And I think this is the beginning of like we must stay connected, because I would anytime you'd ever want to talk about anything or have me be a part of anything, I'm down. I have one last question. What is one thing that you both think sis folks can do to make your day to day lives just better. I would just say, listen, stop over talking. Doing exactly what Alex has done in this podcast. You sat here and you listened, and you didn't interrupt us, and you didn't make it about you. Yeah, I mean I would definitely second the listening aspect. I would say, doing research on your own. You know, Mila, I'm sure that you get this all the time. I do love to educate people, and I love to help people think of ways that they can learn, but simultaneously, like if you can google it, like, it's not my job to create the curriculum for your queer learning experience. UM and I think that people just very simple google searches, Like especially I found so many people don't really understand the difference between like gender identity, gender expression, and gender assignment UM and sometimes people don't even know to look up these things. But if you just kind of look up some like really basic stuff on gender, you can find a lot of information that can really help you along, you know, So I think that's an important thing. Well, thank you both, honestly, thank you so much both of you for coming on the podcast, for allowing me to be a student. And I really do appreciate you for applauding my ability to not interrupt you guys or interrupt you all. But at the same time, for me, I loved just sitting here and listening and learning more and more and more. So thank you both for coming on here and letting me be a student, letting me learn and letting me unlearned things that I thought I knew that now I I know better. So I appreciate both of you. We're all learning, we're all continuing to learn, so that's good too, all right. I feel like I have a lot of takeaways for this episode. My biggest takeaway is that the world is always evolving, It's always changing, it's always leveling up. Therefore, cultures are constantly evolving. People are constantly evolving, Communities are constantly evolving. Who we are is evolving. And so my biggest takeaway is get with it, evolve with us, like don't be, don't try, and like stay back at the old update. Every time your phone gets an update, update your phone, update your life, update your brain. Okay, so that's my biggest takeaway. Every time your phone has a new update, you update your new phone. So update yourself, all right, you want you don't want to miss out on the cool emojis or the new languages or the sick dark mode. That's like what life is like. You gotta get that. You gotta get that update going. So that's my biggest takeaway. My next takeaway is that if you don't know where to start, start by just making an effort. Simply making an effort is a meaningful thing, and it's okay to make mistakes. I've made tons of mistakes on my journey and I probably am going to continue making mistakes. But the main focus is that you make an effort and you lead with a kind heart, which is going to make the world a better place. The more people who are open allies, the safer that this world becomes for all of us. And my last takeaway is that the world is constantly evolving. Everything about it. So our culture is evolving, who we are is evolving, our language is evolving. So don't get stuck back in like the old ways. Don't try and stick with what you used to know like constantly unlearned and relearn just like your phone. And uh. And this is the moment of the podcast that I know you're gonna love, Mila, where we do some shameless promo. I want you both to just promote the hell out of whatever you're doing right now, whatever it is that you want to help support or promote for your own careers, for your lives, for your friends lives, whatever it is, you both got some time to do it. Mila hit us all right, so you guys can follow me. You all can follow me at at the Mela Jam. T h E M I L A j A M. I am the only one. I just released a single called Number One. You can check it out and you can stream it until your heart's content on Spotify, Apple Music, iTunes, Amazon Music everywhere actually matter of fact, just go to iTunes, Apple Music or Spotify and just search Mila Jam. You can keep up with me. Um everything is at the Mela Jam. And I always say this be seen, be you be beautiful. Mm hmm, Lee Anthony, come on, keep that energy up. Let's so you can follow me at Bethany's see Myers and also at the Boocome Project. I'm definitely going to take some time to plug the Bocome Project here. I'm so proud of this business. It's a monthly subscription, it's a workouts in your home. There is not weight loss talk, there's not body bashing talk, there's not all the ship that the wellness industry feeds to you. You know, wellness just feeds off of insecurities, and this is very much about finding your strength and being exactly who you are. And I'm also really proud to say that we've had so many people from the queer community participating in this workout, which obviously means a lot to me. I think, you know, I I always say that I think queer people have the hardest time existing in their own bodies, especially people underneath the trans umbrella, and so this can be a really great way to feel at home in your own space. Your own space meaning your body is your own space, you know, and to be able to feel it over there spit and fired both of my guests today. Thank you both so much for coming on the podcast today, and thank you for listening to the podcast. If you're listening to it right now, we will see you next time. Until then, we really want you to get the help you need, so if you need help, please seek independent advice from a competent healthcare or mental health professional. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of I heart Media or its employees. This podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, counseling, or therapy. Listening to the podcast does not established dr patient relationship with hosts or guests of alex IONO, Let's Get Into It or I Heart Media. No guarantee is given regarding the accuracy of any statements or opinions made on this podcast. Oh if that's a doozy.

Alex Aiono: Let's Get Into It

On Alex Aiono: Let's Get Into It, NOTHING is off-limits. Each week, Alex reveals another secret abou 
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