Michael Lewis speaks with Greg Lippmann, formerly a bond trader at Deutsche Bank, made famous when he was portrayed by Ryan Gosling in the movie version of The Big Short. And Lewis catches up with Steve Eisman, the Wall Street investor who was played by actor Steve Carell. When did they each start to suspect the subprime mortgage market was rotten, and why? And how did they perceive each other in the wary days and months before the market crashed?

For more, check out Steve Eisman’s podcast, The Real Eisman Playbook.

Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.