Pushkin. Hey there, it's Michael Lewis. Before we get to this episode, I want to let you know that you can listen to each episode of Judging Sam The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed ad free by becoming a Pushkin Plus subscriber, and with your subscription you'll also get exclusive access to ad free and early bingeable podcasts like Paul McCartney's new podcast, McCartney A Life in Lyrics, Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist history, The Happiness Lab from Doctor Lorie Santos, and tons of other top shows from Pushkin. Sign up an Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin, dot fm, Slash Plus. Welcome to Judging Sam, The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed. I'm Michael Lewis. We're two weeks into the trial now and the prosecution's almost done making their case and there's a lot to unpack. It's been this steady stream with people who I know, some of them just casually, but most of them pretty well from reporting the book. Seeing them in court has just been wildly fascinating. Except I haven't seen them in court because I haven't been in court because I've been on this book tour instead of Lydia jin Kott has been in court and she's been keeping me posted, but LJ, I'm so excited to finally have a moment to catch up and talk it all through with me. So we're recording this on Saturday, October the fourteenth, And the biggest thing that's happened since we last spoke is that Caroline Ellison is testified. What was she like?

Pushkin. Hey there, it's Michael Lewis. Before we get to this episode, I want to let you know that you can listen to each episode of Judging Sam The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed ad free by becoming a Pushkin Plus subscriber, and with your subscription you'll also get exclusive access to ad free and early bingeable podcasts like Paul McCartney's new podcast, McCartney A Life in Lyrics, Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist history, The Happiness Lab from Doctor Lorie Santos, and tons of other top shows from Pushkin. Sign up an Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin, dot fm, Slash Plus. Welcome to Judging Sam, The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed. I'm Michael Lewis. We're two weeks into the trial now and the prosecution's almost done making their case and there's a lot to unpack. It's been this steady stream with people who I know, some of them just casually, but most of them pretty well from reporting the book. Seeing them in court has just been wildly fascinating. Except I haven't seen them in court because I haven't been in court because I've been on this book tour instead of Lydia jin Kott has been in court and she's been keeping me posted, but LJ, I'm so excited to finally have a moment to catch up and talk it all through with me. So we're recording this on Saturday, October the fourteenth, And the biggest thing that's happened since we last spoke is that Caroline Ellison is testified. What was she like?

You know, when she was testifying? Afterwards, I went back and I looked at how you bring her on stage in your book, and the first sentence is it only took a couple of weeks of working for Sam before Caroline Ellison called her mother and sobbed into the phone that she made the biggest mistake of her life. And I don't think that could be a better introduction. And it's really what her testimony felt like. It felt like she was telling the story of how working for Sam was the worst misstake of her life.

You know, when she was testifying? Afterwards, I went back and I looked at how you bring her on stage in your book, and the first sentence is it only took a couple of weeks of working for Sam before Caroline Ellison called her mother and sobbed into the phone that she made the biggest mistake of her life. And I don't think that could be a better introduction. And it's really what her testimony felt like. It felt like she was telling the story of how working for Sam was the worst misstake of her life.

And at any point did she give any indication of why she stayed, like what kept her in?

And at any point did she give any indication of why she stayed, like what kept her in?

They did ask at one point if she considered resigning, and she said that she told Sam that she was thinking about resigning and wanted to resign, and Sam said, you can't do that. We need you, and how she was afraid that if she left then everything would come tumbling down.

They did ask at one point if she considered resigning, and she said that she told Sam that she was thinking about resigning and wanted to resign, and Sam said, you can't do that. We need you, and how she was afraid that if she left then everything would come tumbling down.

Huh. So, you know, it's funny. Among the documents I had my hands on were a fuller sort of account of their relationship as detailed on their Google Docs messages, and there was a constant theme through it of her feeling ill equipped for the job, unhappy in the job, it's too stressed in the job, and basically kind of wanting to quit all the time, it seemed. But at the same time, in the transcript, she talks about how like she felt, you know, you were there, so I don't know, but she felt more like a victim on the stand then she felt in her exchanges, these personal exchanges with Sam and in the flesh when I interviewed her, she seemed stronger when I met her, and stronger when she's standing up to Sam in their relationship. Then she sounded like she felt she was on the stand.

Huh. So, you know, it's funny. Among the documents I had my hands on were a fuller sort of account of their relationship as detailed on their Google Docs messages, and there was a constant theme through it of her feeling ill equipped for the job, unhappy in the job, it's too stressed in the job, and basically kind of wanting to quit all the time, it seemed. But at the same time, in the transcript, she talks about how like she felt, you know, you were there, so I don't know, but she felt more like a victim on the stand then she felt in her exchanges, these personal exchanges with Sam and in the flesh when I interviewed her, she seemed stronger when I met her, and stronger when she's standing up to Sam in their relationship. Then she sounded like she felt she was on the stand.

I mean, she told a very strong story on the stand. Yeah, but the story was that basically she was a victim of Sam. And I was thinking, it's interesting that you say that, because I did feel differently after seeing her on the stand than how I felt for reading your book. When I read your book, it seemed weird to me that she was so almost giddy when everything came crashing down, when other people were so upset about it. And on the stand I felt like I understood psychologically more what was going on. The way she told the story is the whole time she had been like, this is a really bad situation, and no one else around her was really acknowledging it. And then when it happened, there is a sense of relief, even though a terrible thing happened, you know. And when she cried, that was when I really felt for her in a way that I didn't feel for her in the book, right, you know.

I mean, she told a very strong story on the stand. Yeah, but the story was that basically she was a victim of Sam. And I was thinking, it's interesting that you say that, because I did feel differently after seeing her on the stand than how I felt for reading your book. When I read your book, it seemed weird to me that she was so almost giddy when everything came crashing down, when other people were so upset about it. And on the stand I felt like I understood psychologically more what was going on. The way she told the story is the whole time she had been like, this is a really bad situation, and no one else around her was really acknowledging it. And then when it happened, there is a sense of relief, even though a terrible thing happened, you know. And when she cried, that was when I really felt for her in a way that I didn't feel for her in the book, right, you know.

Can I tell you one thing I noticed, and it's again it's from reading the transcript, so it's different from seeing it. You may just have a different feel for this material than I do from having been there. But Caroline over and over says she was stressed for these few months the last you know, I was the last few months have been miserable, but not before then. There's not a lot of emphasis on the period before then except and this was interesting to me, And this is where I thought the prosecution like got away with something that they didn't think they were going to get away with. She says that the first time she was uncomfortable was when Sam told her to pay out of essentially out of it what amounted to FTX customer funds. Oh, they're sitting in Alameda to pay the billion dollars to see Z to buy him out of his stake. That sounds like, Oh, this here it is, here's the beginning the slippery slope. There's not enough money to do what he wants to do, and he's telling her to use money he shouldn't use, right, But I just double checked this actually to make sure it was true. I talked to the venture people at FTX, the former venture people, and as that money was going out the door, almost two billion dollars at one point eight billion dollars was coming in the door from venture capitalists that Sam had raised. And I think I'm pretty sure what he was doing is trying to pay off CZ a moment before the terms of this fundraise was announced, because he was raising money at such a higher evaluation than he was buying out CZ. And if CZ could see what the venture capitalists were paying to buy in he would have to have paid him more. And so the lines crossed right from the beginning, because the funds are mingled right from the beginning. But this other line, this line of we're going to spend money we don't even have, doesn't seem to be being cross there, but they suggested it was, and she suggests she was a little young comfortable with it. And that seems strange to me, because everybody knew that there was more coming in that was going out, and it was a matter of a weak difference. And I thought, wow, prosecutors are actually routing the defense here, because the defense really should take them on on this.

Can I tell you one thing I noticed, and it's again it's from reading the transcript, so it's different from seeing it. You may just have a different feel for this material than I do from having been there. But Caroline over and over says she was stressed for these few months the last you know, I was the last few months have been miserable, but not before then. There's not a lot of emphasis on the period before then except and this was interesting to me, And this is where I thought the prosecution like got away with something that they didn't think they were going to get away with. She says that the first time she was uncomfortable was when Sam told her to pay out of essentially out of it what amounted to FTX customer funds. Oh, they're sitting in Alameda to pay the billion dollars to see Z to buy him out of his stake. That sounds like, Oh, this here it is, here's the beginning the slippery slope. There's not enough money to do what he wants to do, and he's telling her to use money he shouldn't use, right, But I just double checked this actually to make sure it was true. I talked to the venture people at FTX, the former venture people, and as that money was going out the door, almost two billion dollars at one point eight billion dollars was coming in the door from venture capitalists that Sam had raised. And I think I'm pretty sure what he was doing is trying to pay off CZ a moment before the terms of this fundraise was announced, because he was raising money at such a higher evaluation than he was buying out CZ. And if CZ could see what the venture capitalists were paying to buy in he would have to have paid him more. And so the lines crossed right from the beginning, because the funds are mingled right from the beginning. But this other line, this line of we're going to spend money we don't even have, doesn't seem to be being cross there, but they suggested it was, and she suggests she was a little young comfortable with it. And that seems strange to me, because everybody knew that there was more coming in that was going out, and it was a matter of a weak difference. And I thought, wow, prosecutors are actually routing the defense here, because the defense really should take them on on this.

And what she said was that that incident confirmed for her that Alameda's line of I think the quote is Alameda's line of credit on FTX could be used as a general backstop source of funds for whenever we needed funds, right, But I guess it's a story of like a backstop for a week, and then it becomes a backstop maybe for three months, and then maybe a backstop for three years.

And what she said was that that incident confirmed for her that Alameda's line of I think the quote is Alameda's line of credit on FTX could be used as a general backstop source of funds for whenever we needed funds, right, But I guess it's a story of like a backstop for a week, and then it becomes a backstop maybe for three months, and then maybe a backstop for three years.

What the point is they don't need it again until June. I guess they're saying of twenty twenty two, just more generally most most of what interests me doesn't have much effect on whether Sam is convicted or acquitted. You know that it's mostly the legal stuff is like its whole separate subject. And I kind of thought it was toast going into this, but it looks like it's gotten even worse. And you would probably agree with that. Right if I said, before you stepped into the courtroom, whatever it was, two weeks ago, what odds would you have to be given to bet that Sam is acquitted? What would you have demanded?

What the point is they don't need it again until June. I guess they're saying of twenty twenty two, just more generally most most of what interests me doesn't have much effect on whether Sam is convicted or acquitted. You know that it's mostly the legal stuff is like its whole separate subject. And I kind of thought it was toast going into this, but it looks like it's gotten even worse. And you would probably agree with that. Right if I said, before you stepped into the courtroom, whatever it was, two weeks ago, what odds would you have to be given to bet that Sam is acquitted? What would you have demanded?

I mean, as opposed to Sam. I'm not really a betting woman, but I I mean, I definitely thought Sam was going to be found guilty, just by the very fact that most of the time the prosecution wins. But I also thought that there was a chance that something would come up in the defense that would complicate the story, or that there would be a moment where maybe it would be a bit un clear, or you know, people always talk about there's that wonder. So I was open to possibilities at this point, at the end of this week, it feels like an incredible reach to try and come up with a way to not find him guilty.

I mean, as opposed to Sam. I'm not really a betting woman, but I I mean, I definitely thought Sam was going to be found guilty, just by the very fact that most of the time the prosecution wins. But I also thought that there was a chance that something would come up in the defense that would complicate the story, or that there would be a moment where maybe it would be a bit un clear, or you know, people always talk about there's that wonder. So I was open to possibilities at this point, at the end of this week, it feels like an incredible reach to try and come up with a way to not find him guilty.

Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. So you didn't, you won't take my bet. I would have said fifty to one two weeks ago, and now I'd say two hundred to one. That it's moved that much. But then again, we've got to acknowledge that, you know, innocent until proven guilty, and he hasn't had a chance to be on the stand yet, so and he is going to take the stand, and so who knows what? Yeah, oh, yeah he is. I asked this PR person just to confirm this, like a week ago. Is he still going to take the stand? And he said, does a bear shit in the woods? And I actually don't know if a bear shits in the woods because IVE never seen a bear shit. So I told him I don't think no, And I don't think that he's the port of bodies either. So that we got that to look forward to, and I'm hoping is it going to offend you if I come and join you for a few days. Do you feel like I'll be crawling on you?

Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. So you didn't, you won't take my bet. I would have said fifty to one two weeks ago, and now I'd say two hundred to one. That it's moved that much. But then again, we've got to acknowledge that, you know, innocent until proven guilty, and he hasn't had a chance to be on the stand yet, so and he is going to take the stand, and so who knows what? Yeah, oh, yeah he is. I asked this PR person just to confirm this, like a week ago. Is he still going to take the stand? And he said, does a bear shit in the woods? And I actually don't know if a bear shits in the woods because IVE never seen a bear shit. So I told him I don't think no, And I don't think that he's the port of bodies either. So that we got that to look forward to, and I'm hoping is it going to offend you if I come and join you for a few days. Do you feel like I'll be crawling on you?

No, I would be so excited if you joined me. I'd be so excited to have you meet all my court friends.

No, I would be so excited if you joined me. I'd be so excited to have you meet all my court friends.

I can meet all your friends or your new group. Yeah, but I feel like I'll be excluded in some way because you all have been on the inside.

I can meet all your friends or your new group. Yeah, but I feel like I'll be excluded in some way because you all have been on the inside.

No, I cannot wait for you to come and get to show you my favorite snacks in the cafeteria.

No, I cannot wait for you to come and get to show you my favorite snacks in the cafeteria.

So you can show me around. And we have to show up at six in the morning to get in and all that, so I will do that. Welcome back to Judging Sam the trial of Sam Bankman freed. So a couple more, a couple more just kind of questions for you. But these are random things that like just jumped out at me. And unfortunately, one of the ways I'm thinking about this is what I have liked to have had this material because I could have done stuff with it that I didn't do. And the other thing is like, are people basically behaving like I think they are? I'm looking at it that way too. So, for example, Gary blew my mind that I knew something weird was going to happen. I didn't think it was. The problem was going to be he was going to speak too fast for anybody to understand. I thought they were going to have trouble pulling words out of him. You know, it's a comic moment when this person who everybody thinks doesn't speak, when he gets on a witness stand. Can't shut up, but okay, things just jumped out of me. The pillow talk between Sam and Caroline. The first thing was this coin flip, this idea that he volunteers that if you gave him a coin and if it lands on heads, humanity the world is wiped out. And if it lands on tails, everything is twice as good or three times as good as well. So it's an asymmetric bet, but it's a fifty to fifty chance of wiping out everything. This just clashes spectacularly with the whole effective altruist desire to minimize catastrophic risk. My response would be, I'm not flipping that coin under any circumstances. There's no odds where if there's better than zero odds that wipes out the world. I don't even flip the coin. Sam only requires two to one odds. This seems nuts, and one of the things it speaks to and the Sam bankman free in the book does this. He does two things as patterns of behavior. He's pretty blithe about shoveling risk on to other people, taking risks on behalf of other people. And he's pretty blithe about letting other people say things that aren't true on his behalf zaying in the book Zaine Tackett, who was really the original crypto guy. He was in crypto from the beginning, and they called him the og. He was sort of the soul of crypto, of old crypto that founded its way into Sam's world. And I always thought of him as like the moral center of the book.

So you can show me around. And we have to show up at six in the morning to get in and all that, so I will do that. Welcome back to Judging Sam the trial of Sam Bankman freed. So a couple more, a couple more just kind of questions for you. But these are random things that like just jumped out at me. And unfortunately, one of the ways I'm thinking about this is what I have liked to have had this material because I could have done stuff with it that I didn't do. And the other thing is like, are people basically behaving like I think they are? I'm looking at it that way too. So, for example, Gary blew my mind that I knew something weird was going to happen. I didn't think it was. The problem was going to be he was going to speak too fast for anybody to understand. I thought they were going to have trouble pulling words out of him. You know, it's a comic moment when this person who everybody thinks doesn't speak, when he gets on a witness stand. Can't shut up, but okay, things just jumped out of me. The pillow talk between Sam and Caroline. The first thing was this coin flip, this idea that he volunteers that if you gave him a coin and if it lands on heads, humanity the world is wiped out. And if it lands on tails, everything is twice as good or three times as good as well. So it's an asymmetric bet, but it's a fifty to fifty chance of wiping out everything. This just clashes spectacularly with the whole effective altruist desire to minimize catastrophic risk. My response would be, I'm not flipping that coin under any circumstances. There's no odds where if there's better than zero odds that wipes out the world. I don't even flip the coin. Sam only requires two to one odds. This seems nuts, and one of the things it speaks to and the Sam bankman free in the book does this. He does two things as patterns of behavior. He's pretty blithe about shoveling risk on to other people, taking risks on behalf of other people. And he's pretty blithe about letting other people say things that aren't true on his behalf zaying in the book Zaine Tackett, who was really the original crypto guy. He was in crypto from the beginning, and they called him the og. He was sort of the soul of crypto, of old crypto that founded its way into Sam's world. And I always thought of him as like the moral center of the book.

What was his job at FTX whatever.

What was his job at FTX whatever.

They called him, what his job was a sales He was just managing relations with big crypto speculators. And there's a moment I thought of as like a big moment when Zaye is walking out of the Bahamas and he's just really furious that Sam let him lie, that Sam encouraged him to go and reassure all their friends that everything was okay. And the coin got me thinking about that. That that kind of like, really you do that, you flip that coin. Now, I don't know if he'd really do it, and I don't know the content.

They called him, what his job was a sales He was just managing relations with big crypto speculators. And there's a moment I thought of as like a big moment when Zaye is walking out of the Bahamas and he's just really furious that Sam let him lie, that Sam encouraged him to go and reassure all their friends that everything was okay. And the coin got me thinking about that. That that kind of like, really you do that, you flip that coin. Now, I don't know if he'd really do it, and I don't know the content.

He said that on a podcast also something similar, Yeah, he said. The host asked him, let's say there's a game fifty one percent you double the Earth out of somewhere else forty nine percent it disappears. Would you play the game and would you keep playing that double or nothing? And like basically Stam says he would.

He said that on a podcast also something similar, Yeah, he said. The host asked him, let's say there's a game fifty one percent you double the Earth out of somewhere else forty nine percent it disappears. Would you play the game and would you keep playing that double or nothing? And like basically Stam says he would.

That's nuts. Yeah, that's nuts. I mean, that's that's just that's just insane. You know. It's interesting the Jane Street experience. And in Jane Street, he comes away with the feeling that he's really good at finding these fifty one forty nine bets and making them. And from Jane Street's point of view, that's fine because they have two hundred other people making these fifty one forty nine bets. And if you've got you know, a massive number of people making a massive number of bets, event you're going to win fifty one percent of the time. And that's fine. But if it's just one person flipping a coin, that's not fine. That's different.

That's nuts. Yeah, that's nuts. I mean, that's that's just that's just insane. You know. It's interesting the Jane Street experience. And in Jane Street, he comes away with the feeling that he's really good at finding these fifty one forty nine bets and making them. And from Jane Street's point of view, that's fine because they have two hundred other people making these fifty one forty nine bets. And if you've got you know, a massive number of people making a massive number of bets, event you're going to win fifty one percent of the time. And that's fine. But if it's just one person flipping a coin, that's not fine. That's different.

Like it's almost like he took that lesson from Jane Street but didn't understand the context in which he was acting in that way.

Like it's almost like he took that lesson from Jane Street but didn't understand the context in which he was acting in that way.

I think that's precisely it, this business of there being a five percent chance of being president of the United States.

I think that's precisely it, this business of there being a five percent chance of being president of the United States.

Yes, Caroline says he told her.

Yes, Caroline says he told her.

That this is the sort of thing a boyfriend says to a girlfriend and a girlfriend should never repeat. Right, It's like whatever, like maybe in a moment he had this thought even before things went bad. If there were only twenty Americans, so everybody in theory had a one in five chance of being president of the United States, and Sam was one of them. I wouldn't give him a one in five chance of being president of the United States. I would say he has about in a group of twenty any twenty randomly selected Americans, he has about a two percent chance. And it's because people sense very quickly when they're with him. He doesn't feel for them that he doesn't that he doesn't He doesn't have that thing, that thing that politicians need, you know, the empathy thing, even if it's faith, he doesn't. He doesn't even fake it very well. So it's funny that that thought even crossed his mind. Again, I don't know how true or whatever it was, but it did jump out of the transcripts. How did it play in the courtroom?

That this is the sort of thing a boyfriend says to a girlfriend and a girlfriend should never repeat. Right, It's like whatever, like maybe in a moment he had this thought even before things went bad. If there were only twenty Americans, so everybody in theory had a one in five chance of being president of the United States, and Sam was one of them. I wouldn't give him a one in five chance of being president of the United States. I would say he has about in a group of twenty any twenty randomly selected Americans, he has about a two percent chance. And it's because people sense very quickly when they're with him. He doesn't feel for them that he doesn't that he doesn't He doesn't have that thing, that thing that politicians need, you know, the empathy thing, even if it's faith, he doesn't. He doesn't even fake it very well. So it's funny that that thought even crossed his mind. Again, I don't know how true or whatever it was, but it did jump out of the transcripts. How did it play in the courtroom?

I was in the overflow room. I mean, there were some titters in that whole section. The reporters love the insight into Sam's mind and how it works and what he's thinking about, and the whole time Caroline was talking, and especially when she was talking about her relationship with Sam. Everyone was just riveted. Those were the most riveting parts of her entire testimony. Yeah, but it's not so crazy to think that he would become president when he was really rich. Really rich people who aren't very empathetic have become presidents of the United States in the past.

I was in the overflow room. I mean, there were some titters in that whole section. The reporters love the insight into Sam's mind and how it works and what he's thinking about, and the whole time Caroline was talking, and especially when she was talking about her relationship with Sam. Everyone was just riveted. Those were the most riveting parts of her entire testimony. Yeah, but it's not so crazy to think that he would become president when he was really rich. Really rich people who aren't very empathetic have become presidents of the United States in the past.

I can't think of any I mean, this Trump, but he's not really rich.

I can't think of any I mean, this Trump, but he's not really rich.

That's a good plaint.

That's a good plaint.

So are you you're so? Are you always in the overflow room where you sometimes in the main corporo.

So are you you're so? Are you always in the overflow room where you sometimes in the main corporo.

It's a mix. Basically, it's a mix.

It's a mix. Basically, it's a mix.

So what are the rules about laughing?

So what are the rules about laughing?

For example, the marshals have never specifically stated any rules about laughing. They're very firm about the no electronics, no food, only water. I think there's a kind of self regulation where we just don't want to feel like we're influencing the jury. But in the overflow rooms it's really fun. It's really like we're at the movies. People are laughing, they're talking, sacking in with each other.

For example, the marshals have never specifically stated any rules about laughing. They're very firm about the no electronics, no food, only water. I think there's a kind of self regulation where we just don't want to feel like we're influencing the jury. But in the overflow rooms it's really fun. It's really like we're at the movies. People are laughing, they're talking, sacking in with each other.

So the overflall room may be better in some ways, so you can actually express yourself.

So the overflall room may be better in some ways, so you can actually express yourself.

Yes, the overflow room, it feels like I always wish I had popcorn. It feels like we're doing an overnight showing of the Rocky Horror Picture Show or something.

Yes, the overflow room, it feels like I always wish I had popcorn. It feels like we're doing an overnight showing of the Rocky Horror Picture Show or something.

Then one time I've been in the courtroom, I was so amused I started laughing, and they told me I had to leave. Yeah, I thought you couldn't do that.

Then one time I've been in the courtroom, I was so amused I started laughing, and they told me I had to leave. Yeah, I thought you couldn't do that.

I think we naturally keep it down in the court room. I mean, it's so formal in there. I don't know what courtroom you were. In the atmosphere, it just makes laughing feel so beyond the pale that it just hasn't even come up right right.

I think we naturally keep it down in the court room. I mean, it's so formal in there. I don't know what courtroom you were. In the atmosphere, it just makes laughing feel so beyond the pale that it just hasn't even come up right right.

I was shocked. I came up. I'm reading these transcripts and then all of a sudden, did you meet Michael Lewis or whenever? Who is like a Lewis? And the thing you didn't tell me what you told me? That I that I come up in some way. What I didn't realize is that they asked her if I was present in the discussions about moving money to the wrong place, And I thought, what on earth like? But I thought, thank god she said no.

I was shocked. I came up. I'm reading these transcripts and then all of a sudden, did you meet Michael Lewis or whenever? Who is like a Lewis? And the thing you didn't tell me what you told me? That I that I come up in some way. What I didn't realize is that they asked her if I was present in the discussions about moving money to the wrong place, And I thought, what on earth like? But I thought, thank god she said no.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, well, why are they asking that? There was something? They must They must have known the answer before they asked the question. But the question I was trying to figure out why were they asking them? Were they asking that to show that I wasn't in these these special meetings between them. I don't know. I don't know. I couldn't figure out what that was.

I mean, well, why are they asking that? There was something? They must They must have known the answer before they asked the question. But the question I was trying to figure out why were they asking them? Were they asking that to show that I wasn't in these these special meetings between them. I don't know. I don't know. I couldn't figure out what that was.

I think that what they were trying to get at is that they were this whole section was about Sam and the media, and they were showing how Sam was very intentionally trying to portray himself a certain way in the media and it wasn't accurate. So I think that question was kind of getting at the point that you weren't getting the whole story. He was portraying himself as this eccentric, capable leader. I'm speculating here, but I'm thinking maybe they're asking that to say, but actually you weren't seeing the whole thing. You weren't seeing what was happening behind closed doories, which were these conversations about about.

I think that what they were trying to get at is that they were this whole section was about Sam and the media, and they were showing how Sam was very intentionally trying to portray himself a certain way in the media and it wasn't accurate. So I think that question was kind of getting at the point that you weren't getting the whole story. He was portraying himself as this eccentric, capable leader. I'm speculating here, but I'm thinking maybe they're asking that to say, but actually you weren't seeing the whole thing. You weren't seeing what was happening behind closed doories, which were these conversations about about.

Moving money to the wrong place. Now that's true. I wasn't present when they were saying the money is in the wrong place. No one was present when they were saying money was in the wrong place. It's funny, though Sam's never broken character so far as I can tell. Like you go back and talk to people in high school, he was just like you know, the the high schoolassmates says, the same guy. High school classmates I've talked to are shocked when they've seen him because they assumed that, especially before it all collapsed, they assumed that there was no way the person they knew could have become a billionaire. And they assumed like he changed, and they realized that the world changed, and he was the same guy with the funny roly backpack. And I mean, I've spent way too much time with him for him to be acting all the time. I mean, and that was true even before it collapsed. So what I'm saying is what I think happened. And it's the story. Here is pr person Natalie tells is he goes from being when they create FTX, then you have to promote it. How do you promote it? It's the person who is the CEO. And Natalie's there and she says, he's so weird, but it may be weird will work. I'm not going to even try to change him. And she throws him on Bloomberg Television and she looks him because he's exactly as he is, and it's unbelievable. It works. They're eating it up. And I think it's more true that they ate him up as he was, you know, playing video games while he is on the television sloppy stream of consciousness, smart, you know, a little too open and transparent, seemingly, and so he just went with it. And there might have been times with it he was a slightly exaggerated version of that, but that's actually who he is.

Moving money to the wrong place. Now that's true. I wasn't present when they were saying the money is in the wrong place. No one was present when they were saying money was in the wrong place. It's funny, though Sam's never broken character so far as I can tell. Like you go back and talk to people in high school, he was just like you know, the the high schoolassmates says, the same guy. High school classmates I've talked to are shocked when they've seen him because they assumed that, especially before it all collapsed, they assumed that there was no way the person they knew could have become a billionaire. And they assumed like he changed, and they realized that the world changed, and he was the same guy with the funny roly backpack. And I mean, I've spent way too much time with him for him to be acting all the time. I mean, and that was true even before it collapsed. So what I'm saying is what I think happened. And it's the story. Here is pr person Natalie tells is he goes from being when they create FTX, then you have to promote it. How do you promote it? It's the person who is the CEO. And Natalie's there and she says, he's so weird, but it may be weird will work. I'm not going to even try to change him. And she throws him on Bloomberg Television and she looks him because he's exactly as he is, and it's unbelievable. It works. They're eating it up. And I think it's more true that they ate him up as he was, you know, playing video games while he is on the television sloppy stream of consciousness, smart, you know, a little too open and transparent, seemingly, and so he just went with it. And there might have been times with it he was a slightly exaggerated version of that, but that's actually who he is.

He went with it, and then it worked, and then he really leaned into it, right. I mean, the prosecutors were bringing up how originally he slept in his being bagchair a lot, maybe in Hong Kong, but once they got to the Bahamas, he didn't really sleep in his being back chair, according to I think said that.

He went with it, and then it worked, and then he really leaned into it, right. I mean, the prosecutors were bringing up how originally he slept in his being bagchair a lot, maybe in Hong Kong, but once they got to the Bahamas, he didn't really sleep in his being back chair, according to I think said that.

And his prietory spent less time as being back chair. That was true because in Hong Kong, the housing was shitty and the offices were really nice. In the Bahamas, the offices were shitty, and the and the condos they lived in were really nice. And Nashad Sam, they all complained about it. They hated it. They would have heard ferd ash shitty housing and a really nice office, so nobody wanted to leave the office. So there's no point in Sam living in the office when nobody was there because they didn't want to be there. In the in the Hong Kong and the employees were there all the time, and in the Bahamas is just like you couldn't be there all the time. And the tick about the sleeping in the being back chair, it isn't to reveal his eccentricity. That's not why he does it. It's because he's really uncomfortable sleeping alone. He wouldn't stay in his hotel rooms when he traveled. He'd go curl up in another employees on their sofa in their room because he just I don't know what that is, but he was really comfortable sleeping in a room by himself, and I think the bemback chair when people were there was comforting. So he wasn't like sleeping on the bean bag to show me he was sleeping on the bean bag. They didn't get that sense.

And his prietory spent less time as being back chair. That was true because in Hong Kong, the housing was shitty and the offices were really nice. In the Bahamas, the offices were shitty, and the and the condos they lived in were really nice. And Nashad Sam, they all complained about it. They hated it. They would have heard ferd ash shitty housing and a really nice office, so nobody wanted to leave the office. So there's no point in Sam living in the office when nobody was there because they didn't want to be there. In the in the Hong Kong and the employees were there all the time, and in the Bahamas is just like you couldn't be there all the time. And the tick about the sleeping in the being back chair, it isn't to reveal his eccentricity. That's not why he does it. It's because he's really uncomfortable sleeping alone. He wouldn't stay in his hotel rooms when he traveled. He'd go curl up in another employees on their sofa in their room because he just I don't know what that is, but he was really comfortable sleeping in a room by himself, and I think the bemback chair when people were there was comforting. So he wasn't like sleeping on the bean bag to show me he was sleeping on the bean bag. They didn't get that sense.

What about Carolyn said that when they arrived in the Bahamas, they got these fancy cars and then they Sam traded it in for a more shady car because he didn't want his image to be having this fancy car.

What about Carolyn said that when they arrived in the Bahamas, they got these fancy cars and then they Sam traded it in for a more shady car because he didn't want his image to be having this fancy car.

So that's possibly true. So that story is Ryan Salem, who was the Department of Spending, and who bought all the condos. You let Ryan Salem loose with a blank check book, and it was unbelievable what he would do. Sam. I remember Sam saying, Ryan just does shit no one would do, no other person would do. Go to the Bahamas and then a week accumulate three hundred million dollars of property and buy a piece of land for a three hundred million dollar office site, and in addition, by Sam a fancy car. So Sam didn't asked for a car. Ryan just presented him with his BMW and Sam didn't want it. And Ryan was like, like, dude, you're worth twenty two billion dollars to get a nice car, and SAMSI just don't want a nice car. Now, I'm maybe that was the motive. But if that was the motive, why live in a thirty eight million dollar condo? I mean, you know, it's like it's not really working if you're if you're selling I'm an asthetic and I don't care about material possessions. Why fly on a private jet? Everybody knew about that. He certainly wasn't consistent in selling this image, and so I don't know, I don't know how much. He actually thought about that. He may have set it to Caroline at some point. It doesn't really does It doesn't seem like a strong point. So a couple more questions about the courtroom. Are you still having fun?

So that's possibly true. So that story is Ryan Salem, who was the Department of Spending, and who bought all the condos. You let Ryan Salem loose with a blank check book, and it was unbelievable what he would do. Sam. I remember Sam saying, Ryan just does shit no one would do, no other person would do. Go to the Bahamas and then a week accumulate three hundred million dollars of property and buy a piece of land for a three hundred million dollar office site, and in addition, by Sam a fancy car. So Sam didn't asked for a car. Ryan just presented him with his BMW and Sam didn't want it. And Ryan was like, like, dude, you're worth twenty two billion dollars to get a nice car, and SAMSI just don't want a nice car. Now, I'm maybe that was the motive. But if that was the motive, why live in a thirty eight million dollar condo? I mean, you know, it's like it's not really working if you're if you're selling I'm an asthetic and I don't care about material possessions. Why fly on a private jet? Everybody knew about that. He certainly wasn't consistent in selling this image, and so I don't know, I don't know how much. He actually thought about that. He may have set it to Caroline at some point. It doesn't really does It doesn't seem like a strong point. So a couple more questions about the courtroom. Are you still having fun?

Yes, it's still really fun.

Yes, it's still really fun.

The transcripts aren't boring reads to me, and I was wondering if it's just me. But it doesn't seem to get very slow in the exchanges. The judge seems to do a really good job or run in the room.

The transcripts aren't boring reads to me, and I was wondering if it's just me. But it doesn't seem to get very slow in the exchanges. The judge seems to do a really good job or run in the room.

Yeah he does. He has this phrase tempest fugut, time flies. He tries to keep things moving.

Yeah he does. He has this phrase tempest fugut, time flies. He tries to keep things moving.

Couldn't he just say time flies?

Couldn't he just say time flies?

Yes? But this way I got to be like, thank gosh, I'm minored in Latin.

Yes? But this way I got to be like, thank gosh, I'm minored in Latin.

He seems to have a sense of humor. He is.

He seems to have a sense of humor. He is.

He's very funny. We'll be back in a minute with one last thing.

He's very funny. We'll be back in a minute with one last thing.

So let me ask you what do they say is coming next?

So let me ask you what do they say is coming next?

I think the prosecution is going to spend about one more week and they're going to bring a bunch of witnesses, including Nishad Sing And you wrote a lot about Nishad in your book, so I'm curious what you are thinking about and wondering about before we hear from Nishad.

I think the prosecution is going to spend about one more week and they're going to bring a bunch of witnesses, including Nishad Sing And you wrote a lot about Nishad in your book, so I'm curious what you are thinking about and wondering about before we hear from Nishad.

So when I think of what Nishad's role was on the ORG chart on the inside of the flap of the book, he's whatever he is. I can't even remember what they called him, but what he was right from the beginning was the emotional intelligence unit. All the emotional fallout from Sam Bankman Freed found its way into Nishad's office, and so he was constantly just soothing upset people. And there was a line I didn't actually make it into the book, but I can remember him saying about Sam not long before everything collapsed, that one of the things that impressed him about Sam was that he'd started with zero EQ, but he'd subcontracted some of his IQ to create some EQ and it wasn't as bad as it was in the beginning. And he said, if you saw Sam three years ago, you would think if the Sam you see now is just so much better than the Sam of three years ago. But all the problems in the world found their way to the Shod. He was a little bit like the Green Mile character, like he would he'd hold hands with whatever the person was, that all the pain would be absorbed into the shod. And he also I mean, I'm sure this is going to come out in the trial. But when everything was unraveling, he was begging Sam to say that the shot had nothing to do with what had happened. He was begging Sam to kind of make a statement, and there's an exchange about that in the book, So I'd be interesting how it comes off. Another thing you really need to know about him is that he was Sam's little brother's best friend in high school. And Sam's parents were unbelievably important to Nashad as a kid. As Shad told me, they were the first grown ups whoever took me seriously, and so I started to take myself a bit more seriously. So what you got in the courtroom is maybe even more drama than in a way than Caroline, because the family did never really get to know her. Nashad was almost part of their family, and he's about to get on the witness stand and testify against against Sam.

So when I think of what Nishad's role was on the ORG chart on the inside of the flap of the book, he's whatever he is. I can't even remember what they called him, but what he was right from the beginning was the emotional intelligence unit. All the emotional fallout from Sam Bankman Freed found its way into Nishad's office, and so he was constantly just soothing upset people. And there was a line I didn't actually make it into the book, but I can remember him saying about Sam not long before everything collapsed, that one of the things that impressed him about Sam was that he'd started with zero EQ, but he'd subcontracted some of his IQ to create some EQ and it wasn't as bad as it was in the beginning. And he said, if you saw Sam three years ago, you would think if the Sam you see now is just so much better than the Sam of three years ago. But all the problems in the world found their way to the Shod. He was a little bit like the Green Mile character, like he would he'd hold hands with whatever the person was, that all the pain would be absorbed into the shod. And he also I mean, I'm sure this is going to come out in the trial. But when everything was unraveling, he was begging Sam to say that the shot had nothing to do with what had happened. He was begging Sam to kind of make a statement, and there's an exchange about that in the book, So I'd be interesting how it comes off. Another thing you really need to know about him is that he was Sam's little brother's best friend in high school. And Sam's parents were unbelievably important to Nashad as a kid. As Shad told me, they were the first grown ups whoever took me seriously, and so I started to take myself a bit more seriously. So what you got in the courtroom is maybe even more drama than in a way than Caroline, because the family did never really get to know her. Nashad was almost part of their family, and he's about to get on the witness stand and testify against against Sam.

Michaelis thank you so much for talking to me, thanks.

Michaelis thank you so much for talking to me, thanks.

For filling me in LJ, and I will come. I promise I'll be there for a few days at least at the end of the all. This episode of Judging Sam was hosted by me Michael Lewis, Lydia Jane Cott is our court reporter. Catherine Gerardeau and Nisha Venken produced this show. Sophie Crane is our editor. Our music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans of stell Wagon Symphonette. Judging Sam is a production of Pushkin Industries. Got a question or comment for me, There's a website for that atr podcast dot com. That's atr podcast dot com. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you'd like to access bonus episodes and listen ad free, don't forget to sign up for a Pushkin Plus subscription at pushkin dot fm, slash Plus, or on our Apple show page

For filling me in LJ, and I will come. I promise I'll be there for a few days at least at the end of the all. This episode of Judging Sam was hosted by me Michael Lewis, Lydia Jane Cott is our court reporter. Catherine Gerardeau and Nisha Venken produced this show. Sophie Crane is our editor. Our music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans of stell Wagon Symphonette. Judging Sam is a production of Pushkin Industries. Got a question or comment for me, There's a website for that atr podcast dot com. That's atr podcast dot com. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you'd like to access bonus episodes and listen ad free, don't forget to sign up for a Pushkin Plus subscription at pushkin dot fm, slash Plus, or on our Apple show page