Sam Bankman-Fried finishes direct and faces withering cross-examination by the government’s chief prosecutor, Danielle Sassoon. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean Kott share notes during lunch, then Lidia Jean sits down with Pushkin financial reporter and host Jacob Goldstein to talk through the day’s events.

This conversation was recorded on October 30.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

Sam Bankman-Fried finishes direct and faces withering cross-examination by the government’s chief prosecutor, Danielle Sassoon. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean Kott share notes during lunch, then Lidia Jean sits down with Pushkin financial reporter and host Jacob Goldstein to talk through the day’s events.
This conversation was recorded on October 30.
Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting <a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/against-the-rules">atrpodcast.com</a>
To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/against-the-rules-with-michael-lewis-the-trial/id1455379351">Apple Podcasts</a> or at <a href="https://www.pushkin.fm/join-pushkin">Pushkin.fm/plus</a>.

Journalist and bestselling author Michael Lewis explores the figures in American life who rely on the public's trust, whether in sports, in business, in the courtroom, or on TV. What happens when that trust erodes and we can no longer agree on what's fair and what's not?

Get your copy of The Big Short audiobook, narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, Apple Books, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.

Journalist and bestselling author Michael Lewis explores the figures in American life who rely on the public's trust, whether in sports, in business, in the courtroom, or on TV. What happens when that trust erodes and we can no longer agree on what's fair and what's not?
Get your copy of The Big Short audiobook, narrated by Michael Lewis, on <a href="https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Big-Short-Inside-the-Doomsday-Machine-Audiobook/B0FJTH21JS?qid=1758041668&amp;sr=1-1&amp;ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&amp;pf_rd_p=83218cca-c308-412f-bfcf-90198b687a2f&amp;pf_rd_r=W8EJYNFBTNKENZERAF3F&amp;plink=MffxLjWat1SZzQ9C&amp;pageLoadId=8twGCD6I2yKFLwtS&amp;creativeId=0d6f6720-f41c-457e-a42b-8c8dceb62f2c&amp;ref=a_search_c3_lProduct_1_1">Audible</a>, <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/4jMnkmyFmZT7j7R72nlNXz?si=b627a059b2e644cc">Spotify</a>, <a href="https://books.apple.com/us/audiobook/the-big-short-inside-the-doomsday-machine/id1828393213">Apple Books</a>,&nbsp;<a href="http://pushkin.fm/bigshort">pushkin.fm/bigshort</a> or wherever you get audiobooks.

Against the Rules with Michael Lewis

Judging Sam: Sam Bankman-Fried Faces Cross-Examination

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/a0015428-2246-4856-a533-b0ac00b2712b/transcript

Exciting news! I have an all new book coming out on October 6th: BLOCKERS. You can pre-order your copy of the audiobook exclusively at blockers.fm. The hardcover is available at michaellewiswrites.com.

A blocker is the worst thing you could be during President Trump's second term—especially if you worked in the federal government and wanted to keep your job. A blocker was a holdover, an impediment, and, most of all, someone who didn’t belong. BLOCKERS tells the story of seven people who believed they had a calling, who were convinced they were doing something the country couldn’t do without, and then discovered they were no longer wanted. One kept Americans’ most sensitive tax data out of the wrong hands and another made sure that politicians and civil servants played by the rules. One figured out how to stop wildfires from destroying suburban neighborhoods, another helped uncover the mysteries of cystic fibrosis.

BLOCKERS is an inside look at the early days of Trump’s Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) as told by the public servants it targeted and asks the question: If public servants can’t survive in government today, then what does that say about our country?

Pre-order your copy of the audiobook exclusively at blockers.fm. We'll send you a code for 25% off all Pushkin titles, including mine like Liar’s Poker and The Big Short, through the end of the year. 

Exciting news! I have an all new book coming out on October 6th: BLOCKERS. You can pre-order your copy of the audiobook exclusively at&nbsp;<a href="http://blockers.fm/" data-saferedirecturl="https://www.google.com/url?q=http://blockers.fm/&amp;source=gmail&amp;ust=1780604741523000&amp;usg=AOvVaw2J4r3Nk0NlFAfzLqgafUBU">blockers.fm</a>. The hardcover is available at&nbsp;<a href="http://michaellewiswrites.com/" data-saferedirecturl="https://www.google.com/url?q=http://michaellewiswrites.com/&amp;source=gmail&amp;ust=1780604741523000&amp;usg=AOvVaw2Qc9ucG5NSeLLTcvo1D4_-">michaellewiswrites.com</a>.
A blocker is the worst thing you could be during President Trump's second term&mdash;especially if you worked in the federal government and wanted to keep your job. A blocker was a holdover, an impediment, and, most of all, someone who didn&rsquo;t belong. BLOCKERS tells the story of seven people who believed they had a calling, who were convinced they were doing something the country couldn&rsquo;t do without, and then discovered they were no longer wanted. One kept Americans&rsquo; most sensitive tax data out of the wrong hands and another made sure that politicians and civil servants played by the rules. One figured out how to stop wildfires from destroying suburban neighborhoods, another helped uncover the mysteries of cystic fibrosis.
BLOCKERS is an inside look at the early days of Trump&rsquo;s Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) as told by the public servants it targeted and asks the question: If public servants can&rsquo;t survive in government today, then what does that say about our country?
Pre-order your copy of the audiobook exclusively at <a href="http://blockers.fm/" data-saferedirecturl="https://www.google.com/url?q=http://blockers.fm/&amp;source=gmail&amp;ust=1780604741523000&amp;usg=AOvVaw2J4r3Nk0NlFAfzLqgafUBU">blockers.fm</a>. We'll send you a code for 25% off all Pushkin titles, including mine like Liar&rsquo;s Poker and The Big Short, through the end of the year.&nbsp;

Blockers: A New Audiobook from Michael Lewis 

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/f38a23ff-c87f-4eb2-ad92-b45e015976ec/transcript

Recently, Michael Lewis spoke with Nicolle Wallace, host of the podcast The Best People, at Symphony Space in New York. They discussed what it was like re-visiting the Big Short 15 years on. And we hear the actor Zach Grenier dramatize a portion of The Big Short.

Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.

Recently, Michael Lewis spoke with Nicolle Wallace, host of the podcast&nbsp;<a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/49PEWS3aD9f6M2urhGdf6d">The Best People</a>, at Symphony Space in New York. They discussed what it was like re-visiting the Big Short 15 years on. And we hear the actor Zach Grenier dramatize a portion of The Big Short.
Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on&nbsp;<a href="https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Big-Short-Inside-the-Doomsday-Machine-Audiobook/B0FJTH21JS?qid=1758041668&amp;sr=1-1&amp;ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&amp;pf_rd_p=83218cca-c308-412f-bfcf-90198b687a2f&amp;pf_rd_r=W8EJYNFBTNKENZERAF3F&amp;plink=MffxLjWat1SZzQ9C&amp;pageLoadId=8twGCD6I2yKFLwtS&amp;creativeId=0d6f6720-f41c-457e-a42b-8c8dceb62f2c&amp;ref=a_search_c3_lProduct_1_1">Audible</a>, <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/4jMnkmyFmZT7j7R72nlNXz?si=b627a059b2e644cc">Spotify</a>, <a href="http://pushkin.fm/bigshort">pushkin.fm/bigshort</a> or wherever you get audiobooks.

Live with Nicolle Wallace 

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/1d7f280a-9675-4a5d-aef3-b3b001645c45/transcript

Of all the characters in The Big Short, fund manager Michael Burry (depicted by Christian Bale in the movie version) seemed the least likely to grant Michael Lewis a follow-up interview. Burry was one of the first to see the subprime housing market crisis coming, and he actually helped Wall Street banks develop the credit-default swap, the instrument that allowed short sellers to make their bets against the market. Lately, Burry has been in the news again because his fund has taken short positions against tech giants Nvidia and Palantir. Now he finally sits down with Lewis as part of this series.

Burry recently launched a newsletter called Cassandra Unchained.

Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.

Of all the characters in The Big Short, fund manager Michael Burry (depicted by Christian Bale in the movie version) seemed the least likely to grant Michael Lewis a follow-up interview. Burry was one of the first to see the subprime housing market crisis coming, and he actually helped Wall Street banks develop the credit-default swap, the instrument that allowed short sellers to make their bets against the market. Lately, Burry has been in the news again because his fund has taken short positions against tech giants Nvidia and Palantir. Now he finally sits down with Lewis as part of this series.
Burry recently launched a newsletter called <a href="https://michaeljburry.substack.com/">Cassandra Unchained</a>.
Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on&nbsp;<a href="https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Big-Short-Inside-the-Doomsday-Machine-Audiobook/B0FJTH21JS?qid=1758041668&amp;sr=1-1&amp;ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&amp;pf_rd_p=83218cca-c308-412f-bfcf-90198b687a2f&amp;pf_rd_r=W8EJYNFBTNKENZERAF3F&amp;plink=MffxLjWat1SZzQ9C&amp;pageLoadId=8twGCD6I2yKFLwtS&amp;creativeId=0d6f6720-f41c-457e-a42b-8c8dceb62f2c&amp;ref=a_search_c3_lProduct_1_1">Audible</a>, <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/4jMnkmyFmZT7j7R72nlNXz?si=b627a059b2e644cc">Spotify</a>, <a href="http://pushkin.fm/bigshort">pushkin.fm/bigshort</a> or wherever you get audiobooks.

Michael Burry Speaks

https://api.omny.fm/orgs/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/clips/2086bbbc-fc68-4bda-af2a-b3a60167db56/transcript

Judging Sam: Sam Bankman-Fried Faces Cross-Examination

In 1 playlist(s)

Against the Rules with Michael Lewis

Social links

Follow podcast

Recent clips