Traffic law expert Karen Stanley addresses confusion over Adelaide's mobile phone detection cameras

Published Jan 15, 2025, 5:40 AM

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Are you one of the people who has been caught on the new mobile phone detection speed cameras? You can remain anonymous if you don't want your name to go on the radio. Were you expecting the fine and were you expecting the fine to be as high as it is? I think it's more than six hundred and fifty dollars for the fine five hundred and fifty six dollars and then a one hundred and two victims of crime levy, so over six hundred and fifty bucks if you're caught using your phone. Yeah, I think that's fair, don't I don't really think. I don't really have an issue with that. I don't like when I see people using their phones on the road. Today, I was driving down Glen Osmond Road, and you know Glen Osman Road. When you're driving down the hill from the freeway, it can be extremely dangerous. There's lots of trucks coming off a freeway that are at high speed. And there was a car in front of me and it kept sort of breaking, what I thought unnecessarily, and I'm thinking, what's going on here? And then it sort of swerved into the other lane and came back and I thought, that's something happening here. I need to get away from this car. So I changed lanes and we were sitting in the right hand lane. I moved into the left hand lane to overtake it, and I looked to my right and saw that it was a guy sitting there on his phone. He was texting or whatever he was doing on his phone with it in his lap, and I just thought, you absolute idiot. It's such a dangerous road to be on using your phone while you're distracted. But there has been some confusion for some people who have received these fines in the mail from these mobile phone detection speed cameras since they were turned on a few months ago. So I thought we should talk about it and let's get it cleared up with traffic law expert at Stanley Hill Elkin's Karen Stanley. Hello, Karen, how are you.

I'm well thanked, Stacy.

So there's been a little bit of confusion from some people because they're called, you know, these mobile phone detection speed cameras, and people have been caught not necessarily using their phone.

Well, that's exactly what's happened. The problem that I'm finding people are calling me about all the time is that most of the people who are calling me since these new laws and the new mobile phone cameras have come in, have been holding their phones on their lap, or the phones have just been sitting on their lap, and people are saying to me, but I haven't been using them. The problem for these people is that the definition of use in the legislation includes holding it or resting it on any part of your body.

Ah okay, So while they say it's just sitting on my lap, I'm not touching it with my hand or holding it or using it to send a text message or make a call or Google Maps or whatever it is that is still under the law considered using it. If it's sitting there on your lap despite not being touched.

Or used, that's right.

And I accept that this has not been well advertised by the government, even though it's been the law for as long as I've been a traffic lawyer. It just hasn't been well advertised that even having it on your body amounts to use. So I'm getting people who are calling me saying they've been caught twice, ten, twenty times, and they don't realize that having the phone resting on their body amounts to use until they receive the first fine, and then another fifteen fines come along afterwards. So that's where the confusion lies.

Ah, right, And there are quite a few people who have received multiple fines. I think the latest stats released by the police were that one person got forty one breaches. That's more than twenty seven thousand dollars in the first three months that these cameras were turned on. So they're quite lucrative for the government and getting all these fines paid.

And it doesn't surprise me that people who don't realize that having a phone on their lap is use are getting multiple fines before they would. They're being fined multiple times before they received the first fine in the mail. So I think this is not really a case of people just wilfully ignoring the law. It's people who think they're doing the right thing and they're not.

Is there a defense therefore, Well, I didn't know that was the law, and use, in my mind, to an average or whatever, the legal definition to a sane minded person is using holding, moving of hands, and this was not use. It was sitting on my lap and I wasn't touching it with any other part of my body. Is there any.

Defense there, Well, it's not a defense. So if you if what you are doing meets the definition of use, then there is no defense. But there is probably a technical argument somewhere along the way about what use is and what holding is and all kinds of complicated things that I quite often do in the courts. But for the average person who has just got this fine, and they've got a five hundred or six hundred dollars fine, they're going to get three demerit points. They are not going to be successful going to court and saying hang on, I didn't realize that that was an offense. I wasn't actually using it in the sense of, you know, texting anyone. The best they can hope for is maybe to go to court and get a reduction of demerit points. But even that carries some risk because the court might well say no convictions are at stake, that sort of thing. So what I'm advising people when they call me is, look, if your license is not at risk, probably not worth engaging a lawyer, and probably worth paying the fine and incurring the demerit and having a bit of a grumble about, you know, how poorly the government has advertised that this is an offense and just moving on and learning a painful and valuable lesson. But for the people who have got multiple fines whose license are at risk, then it probably is worth electing to be prosecuted and engaging a lawyer.

Right, okay, Because it can be costly to go to court for something like that, Yes, it.

Can, and certainly far more costly to engage a lawyer than to pay the fine.

Yeah, yeah, even if the fine is more than six hundred and fifty dollars.

Yes, yes, but you know, there are some people who are getting twenty fines that's probably worthwhile engaging something like It is really clear that there has been some lack of education with the public for this to becoming an issue. Now, people are not going to get the charge thrown out by going to court, but there is there is possibly a technical argument. I'm not recommending people go down that route unless their license really is at stake. I think this is one of those cases, unfortunately, where the fine is the education.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting, isn't it Because when these first statistics came out, and you know, we saw that person who'd been issued more than forty times and twenty seven thousand dollars, and I just, you know, your first reaction is, oh, that's ridiculous. You know, there's no excuse for that. And then I think about it and think, I've got a new car now. But this is the first time I've had a car that actually has Bluetooth built into it. When I was driving my old Yarus that didn't have Bluetooth, I would keep the phone on the seat in between my legs, and I knew so I knew if it was ringing. Well, you know, that's the only way I knew if my phone was ringing or or not. And it's illegal to do that even if I wasn't answering it, even if it rang and I didn't answer it, But to have it on the seat there on your lap is illegal.

Well, it depends, Stacey wasn't actually touching your legs, because I think the legislation says if it's not touching your legs, but I think that actually defies the spirit of the legislation. We need to remember that mobile phones are a major source of distraction. And I heard what you said before this segment started, and people are dangerous on the road when they're distracted. By their mobile phones, so that is the intent of the legislation. And even having it on your lap, even if you're not using it, you know, there is a serious risk of distraction there. So that's what the government's getting at. But I do feel a bit sorry for the people who have had multiple fines.

Yeah, yeah, especially if there's been a delay in sending those fines out, because it's not even as if well, here's your lesson, now you've got to learn lesson, it's you did you did something wrong for a few days in a row, and now we're sending out all of the fines and you've lost your license, and they didn't really have an opportunity to learn the lesson from doing it wrong in the in the first instance.

That well, that's exactly right. And there are some offenses like driving an unregistered motor vehicle where if you don't know that your vehicle's are registered and you only find out once you get the fine, there is a mechanism in the law where all those offenses can be subsumed into one because of the acknowledgment that you may not have known that that mechanism is not available to mobile phone charges. So for people who have multiple fines, who then pay the fines. They are going to get all the demerit points and it only takes four of these signs for people to lose their license.

To lose their license. Yeah, this is an interesting text from Michael on zero double four eight zero eight, thirteen ninety five. I was sent a warning letter about using my phone at ten thirty at night from the police before the fine started. I was one hundred percent at home from seven thirty pm that night, and this was confirmed by my phone location data. I rang to get a photo to see if someone else was using my number plate, but they said they don't send photos for warnings. Something was wrong, Something was seriously wrong with the process. Michael. I'm guessing if you did want to contest it now that it's not the trial period, you would be able to see the photo, do you.

Know, Carrent, Yes, that's right. So for the warning period, I understand that people were not sent photos, so people were not getting the information that they needed to realize that whatever they were doing was wrong. And it sounds like for Michael, he was not even driving his car at that time. It could have been that someone else was driving his car. I know that there were issues when these when the cameras first were activated and during the trial period about people in similar situations to Michael. But I know now if people get a fine, then they are entitled to get a photo because that photo is the evidence against them.

Yep. And what about this text from Kevin? Can you have your phone in your top pocket? Would that be if it's touching your body or is it?

Oh, Kevin makes it tricky for me because there is actually the legislation is very very confusing, and it's it's a non exhaustive list, and then there is a list of what is not phone use and held in fact says resting on any part of the body, but does not include held in the pocket of the driver's clothing or a pouch.

Oh so if you have it in a pouch, it's on your body, but it's in a pouch. So that's okay.

Look, I'm not trying to get away around the law. That's not what that's what the law.

That's what the law says, and that's what it says about pockets as well. I think if you've got your phone in a pocket or in a pouch, it's not going to be detected by a camera.

Yes, yeah, okay, well that's a good point.

The camera wouldn't say it.

We're not encouraging for bringing up a tricky case of the legends.

Thank you for that, Kevin. We also have a call from Romeo in prospect. Hi Romeo.

Helloh, just wanted to ask a question of a crying lady.

Uh.

Technically okay, they've taken a picture of you to holding the phone or whatever it was, on your lap or anything it was, to have a day stamp, it would have a time stamp. Couldn't that be called related to your phone records to say that, hey, at that particular time, there was nothing record it on my phone bill.

The definition of youth is not limited to making or receiving phone calls or making or receiving texts. Youth includes activating a button to check the time. Use includes well, as we've discovered, just holding the phone. So the phone records are not going to help exonerate your question.

Any part of your body, that's it. And if you've got it on your side seat and you extend your hand to it and it digs your picture, you're done? Am I correct?

Yes?

And does it dig the picture? Does it defect the molsion of your hand going down there.

Well, now we're now we're getting very technical, and that that's the sort of that's the sort of argument that will inevitably be heard in the Supreme Court.

That's thanks for the thank you, see you. That's Romeo in prospect.

Your call is a keeping me on their day.

Well, and you know what, if any of these are better calls for off air, Karen, we can feel free to do that and put you in touch. No need, no pressure. I do have one here which might be a tricky one from Keith, but I've thought about this before as well. What about Apple watches because you can answer calls on that, but to do that you have to touch it.

Apple watches are yes, you're right, this is tricky. At the moment, there is no legislation that specifically covers smart watches. There are two pieces of legislation that might cover it, and that's the use of a mobile phone. And then there is another law that talks about having a visual display unit. And if there's a visual display unit in the vehicle that is likely to distract the driver of the vehicle, that is a different offense to the mobile phone. So there might be an argument about a smart watch being a visual display unit. Again, that's something that hasn't been covered in the legislation. I can't say, well, yes, you can do it, because I don't know what the answer is. I have heard rumblings about Victoria passing legislation on smart watches. I don't think that we have the capacity to monitor in South Australia at the moment, and certainly not by the mobile phone cameras.

Right, Okay, interesting, and we've got one more question for you on the phone line, if you don't mind. Karen Peter is in Forestville.

Hello Peter, Oh, I just wondering we're talking about that. What about if someone's having a drink of water or white of their sandwich, is that considered as an offense?

Touching anything other than a mobile phone is not, in and of itself an offense. So the only item that you are expressly prohibited from touching or holding is a mobile phone. Depending on what happening at the time that you're having a drink, you might be committing another offense if you're failing to exercise a proper lookout, or if you are crossing over a white line because you're distracted or you're driving without you care. That is a separate offense. But as the laws currently stand, having a drink or having something to eat is not an offense in and of itself.

Okay, that's sort of I'm.

Not recommending everyone.

Going back then, a.

Lot of people who have been fined for putting their makeup on while they're driving because they're driving distracted and so you know, they're touching their foundation, stick or whatever it might be, might not be the offense, but it's because they're doing that while they're distracted. Would that be the case.

Current, Well, it is that the prosecution would have to prove that the driver was distracted.

Right right, So yeah, if you find a break and you can have a drink, do it. But as long as.

You're not over or doing anything else wrong, not using I think we just think we need to focus on what is the purpose of this legislation, and this is to stop distraction because at.

The moment, people are receiving all of these fines for holding their mobile phones and they're getting a fine and they're getting three demerit points. If someone is using their phone and they hit someone and someone dies, that person is going to.

Jail and look, we're not here to give people excuses for getting out of the law either find ways around it. We're just here educating to say, well, this is something that a lot of people have found, so we appreciate your time in explaining it to us. Karen, and it's always always good to chat.

Thank you so much, Thanks very much, Stacey.

It's Karen Stanley, traffic lawyer with Stanley Hill Elkin's

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